"Anderson Cooper"

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Speaker 1 Hello, I'm Sean Hayes. I'm an actor.
Special skills include being able to bounce a tennis ball in a racket 153 consecutive times.

Speaker 1 Another special skill is picking my nose without people watching or people knowing. Shit.
Welcome to Smartlist. Smart

Speaker 1 Less.

Speaker 1 Smart

Speaker 1 List.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 1 Sean, I don't think I've ever seen you grumpy. Ever.
Oh, yeah. Well, live with me for a couple days.
Oh, challenge much? But what gets you grumpy?

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 i i guess yeah scotty would be the answer to that that's what gets you grumpy that's why i haven't seen it huh sometimes scotty makes you grumpy well look when you live with somebody right doesn't amanda make you grumpy everybody every

Speaker 1 and you make her grumpy and we all make each other grumpy it is you know actually amanda and i had a nice talk about that uh recently yeah that basically like well this is it's a choice it's a real choice like it's pretty easy to stay grumpy make your partner grumpy, and just live in grumpiness.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 1 It's light lifting.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But it's such a well, I always say you have to fall in respect with somebody, not in love with them, because if you don't have respect, you don't have a lot more people.

Speaker 1 Have you thought about making it on t-shirts or something?

Speaker 1 Or even a bumper sticker? Yeah, you got everything like a center, like up in the middle of the middle. Well, you know what? You know what?

Speaker 1 You know what our friend Josh Shotland said to me the other day, Willie? What's up?

Speaker 1 He passed on a sage saying,

Speaker 1 you'll never treat anyone better than you treat yourself.

Speaker 1 So, you know, well, here's what, here's something Scotty and I argued about yesterday.

Speaker 1 He was talking about having a meeting with this person for a potential gig because he's a composer, he writes music. And so I was like, I jumped all over him about this is what you got to do.

Speaker 1 You got to talk to him like this.

Speaker 1 And when you bring your stuff, make sure you show him this music that you did and then this movie, but it's got to be in this order because it grows, see, from the ballads to the more complicated.

Speaker 1 I'm already mad at you. He looks at me like he's going to fucking kill me.
Right.

Speaker 1 like hey hollywood how about i just yeah take a nice meeting just i've been doing well just by myself and i was like okay and so uh and i go i'm just i'm just here to help and he goes see a loser is that what she said doing kicked him in the ass

Speaker 1 and then he got but i say but i say i said i'm only trying to help you and he goes i know that but sometimes you don't hear your the way you hear yourself.

Speaker 1 So, Sean, that's a great point. I think that for me, one of the things that I noticed, and it's taken me a long time, is tone.
And sometimes people misinterpret my tone, and I get very

Speaker 1 sort of fired up about stuff or whatever. And this is everybody.
This is sort of friends, kids,

Speaker 1 partners, whatever. But I live for when you get fired up.
I love that.

Speaker 1 But I actually don't mean it. And I think that what happens is people misinterpret it anyway.

Speaker 1 I tend to get

Speaker 1 insincerely passionate about things too.

Speaker 1 But also, that heavy brow of mine at 53, we've talked about this.

Speaker 1 I look pretty pissed off just when listening.

Speaker 1 Your brow is now where your eyes are. Yeah, my bad mood is just gravity.
That's all that is. Don't worry.

Speaker 1 Gang,

Speaker 1 I got a real peach for us today. Today's guest, this fella is smart and handsome.
He's famous, but private, an academic, but disarming.

Speaker 1 He's got a degree from Yale.

Speaker 1 His own show. Who does it? A couple kids, 19 Emmys.
What?

Speaker 1 Yeah. He's worked in over 40 countries.
He's written three books, all of them bestsellers, and he's just launched a podcast because we need more. We needed more, and that's why we got into it.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We're going to have,

Speaker 1 we're going to have to ask him what stimuli he's addicted to to get all this done and why he's agreed to do our show i'm a big big longtime fan and super excited to welcome Anderson Cooper.

Speaker 1 Oh, come on in, Anderson. Mr.
Anderson Cooper. Yeah.

Speaker 2 How's it going?

Speaker 1 Wait, 19 Emmys? 19.

Speaker 2 You know, they're news Emmys, though, so it's not real.

Speaker 1 Sure. Still gold.
Nobody cares.

Speaker 2 There's not a ceremony.

Speaker 1 Yes, there is. Yes, there is.
I remember visiting you in your office.

Speaker 2 Yes, Sean, I think you're the only in this trio, the only one person I've actually met, but

Speaker 2 I'm intimidated. I'm a huge admirer admirer of everybody here.

Speaker 2 And I love your podcast. I've listened.
I'm the least successful Cooper ever on your podcast, by the way.

Speaker 1 When we booked DB,

Speaker 1 hey,

Speaker 1 what? I just, your level of accomplishments are just, they're pretty stunning. And I'm just going to start right on question 11.

Speaker 2 By the way, am I the only one without a hat? Yeah,

Speaker 1 we told you to have access to one or you had time to get one when I asked you to.

Speaker 2 I got this.

Speaker 1 That'll work. Okay, that's good.
Listener, he's just put on a war correspondent helmet.

Speaker 1 This is the first person who's been embedded with Smartless.

Speaker 1 I'm going to get to that.

Speaker 2 By the way, Jason, did you just play golf? I mean, is this?

Speaker 1 I don't play golf. Do you want to say that?

Speaker 2 Last I heard you were on

Speaker 2 every day for the last 101 days or something. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm trying to catch up a little bit. Willie's going to jump into the hole with me on Tuesday.

Speaker 2 I beg your pardon. I'm back.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm back Tuesday. No, I'm back Saturday.
There's a better way to say that. I know.
There's a much better way to say.

Speaker 1 Wait, but no, here comes my question. What about all these accomplishments? I'm so excited.
I mean, this is an easy but tough question.

Speaker 1 What's left? What do you want to do? Anderson? Tell me what the goal is. Just jump to the end? I know.
Honestly, yeah.

Speaker 2 I'm working on. At the end of the interview.
I'm working on an ice show.

Speaker 1 Yeah. You're going to go ice skating?

Speaker 2 No, it's going to be like a

Speaker 2 Anderson on ice ice kind of thing, kind of a review of my life, but on ice.

Speaker 1 Okay, shaking, not stirring. It's the same costume designer as Shrek on ice.
Yeah, you're just going to use all those same costumes.

Speaker 2 Someone plays my mom and my dad. It's a good idea.
My dead brother. You know, it's going to be really good.

Speaker 1 Listen,

Speaker 1 I have experience.

Speaker 1 I have a lot of experience with ice productions. So, you know, just let me know.
I played a figure skill. Oh, but Willie knows his way around an ice rink.

Speaker 1 He's got a real power dumper on him, and he can get after it.

Speaker 2 What's a power dumper?

Speaker 1 Power dumper dumper is what skaters get. It's a pro dumper.

Speaker 2 Oh, you mean like a big bug?

Speaker 1 Pro dumper. It's a pro dumper.
Yeah. It's a

Speaker 1 pro dumper. That's what hockey guys have.
We had pro dumper. Like muscle ass.
Like a big muscle ass.

Speaker 2 Bro. Thank you, Sean, for putting it into terms I can understand.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Games.

Speaker 1 So, all right, so you're not going to give me an honest answer because to do that would be...

Speaker 2 What was it?

Speaker 1 Well, you're too humble to give me a real answer about what, like, what's left? What is next?

Speaker 1 What is there left for you to do? I mean, you know, 360 is enough, but you're also on 60 minutes for God's sake. Like you're at the pinnacle of any journalistic goal.
I'm Leslie Stahl.

Speaker 1 I'm Anderson Cooper. Every Sunday.
Like what else? What else would you want? And you've written books.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 my dad died at 50, and I always expected to die at 50. So I planned my whole life in an accelerated version of I'm going to die at 50, so I need to get everything in by then.

Speaker 1 Can I be honest with you? None of of us thought you were going to make it past 50.

Speaker 1 We all lost.

Speaker 2 So when I hit 51, I was like, what the fuck do I do now? I don't have a plan. And so I have been asking myself that question for the last couple of years.

Speaker 2 And I have kids now, and that is the greatest thing I've ever done. And so that's a whole...

Speaker 2 That's my future. And I love, I like what I do.
I mean, I love, you know, I love telling other people's stories.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 2 I mean, I have no actual skills, so there's nothing else I can do.

Speaker 1 Oh, please.

Speaker 1 You're brilliant. You're brilliant.
You've got your degree in political science.

Speaker 1 You're actually succeeding in something you studied. Plus, you get to spend one night a year on TV with Andy Cohen, which is a skill in and of itself.
I mean, what a handful that guy is. Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 Hey, well, do you know?

Speaker 1 I do know Andy. I do know Andy.
Yeah, no, no, no. I've known Andy for a long time.
I would like to.

Speaker 2 He and I were set up on a blind date like 25 years ago.

Speaker 1 No way. Were you really? Oh, yeah.
How did that go?

Speaker 2 Oh, we never had it because he called me. He was a producer at CBS News at the time on the morning show.

Speaker 2 And people were like, oh, you're gay and you're both in news, so you should meet. And anyway, he called me up to set up the date.

Speaker 2 And within 30 seconds, I knew I was never going on a date with Andy Cohen because he violated like every one of my rules. The biggest one being he mentioned my mom within the first 30 seconds.

Speaker 2 And he now admits he just wanted to date the Vanderbilt boy.

Speaker 1 So that's so gauche. Wait a second.
So for my sister, your mom is Gloria Vanderbilt now. You're killing me.
That is so on-brand for audience.

Speaker 1 How did he bring it up? Oh, he was just like, you're Gloria Vanderbilt's son. I mean, he's not subtle.

Speaker 1 Hey, did you guys ever make a pact that, like, if he's single by a certain age and you're single by a certain age, sure, let's just get together and

Speaker 1 my family.

Speaker 2 All right. No, it's not possible.
I, I, like, we're really close friends. I mean, I love him, but I, it, that would not work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I love him.
By the way, Sean, you said that. And, and,

Speaker 1 And Andy's such a great guy. I love him.

Speaker 1 He's so profoundly funny to me. He makes me, he really cracks me up.
Why don't you bring him on the show, Arnett? Well, it's just because I can't, I don't know. He's just a lot.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 no, I'm kidding. I love him.
I am going to have him on the show.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 it's funny, Sean, you bring up the thing about, hey, we make a pact. You know what people say that all the time?

Speaker 1 Like, so-and-so, we made a pact that if we weren't married by, and I always call it, like, that's just bullshit. That's like some weird bullshit old thing that people do.

Speaker 2 Has anyone ever done that?

Speaker 1 No, nobody's ever done it. And they all talk about it in this way that's really stupid and nostalgic and just full of BS.
All right, we'll be right back.

Speaker 1 We do commercials, right? We do commercials on the weekends. We don't, not anymore.

Speaker 2 I like the commercials you guys.

Speaker 1 Was that some of that? That was some of that passion often misinterpreted for hostility. Yeah, yeah, by the way.
I don't really care about it.

Speaker 1 All right. Somebody asked him a question.
I got to go to my question list. Oh, yeah.
No, I wanted to. So

Speaker 1 when I walked into your office, I don't know, this is like three years ago,

Speaker 1 I flew from LA to New York to CNN to do three commercials in one day and then flew home. And I stopped and I was like running on fumes.
I ran into your office and I think I made a fool out of myself.

Speaker 1 I was like, Anderson, what's going on? Cotton, do you have any Emmys down in the back? And he's got like 19 Emmys in the back.

Speaker 1 And I made like joke, joke, joke, and then I left. You're probably like, how did you describe that encounter, Anderson, to other people?

Speaker 2 It was like the greatest thing that had happened to me for like the month. That was the first time we met.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no.

Speaker 2 And then I did a little interview with you for the doctor documentary you were working on.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's right. Thank you for that.
Anderson, tell me how

Speaker 1 journalism got started with you.

Speaker 1 Why did you get excited about it and at what age?

Speaker 2 I,

Speaker 2 you know, I watched a lot of news as a kid growing up. I was a total nerd and I was interested in how stories are told.
My dad was a writer and my mom wrote. And

Speaker 2 so, yeah, we did.

Speaker 1 Who's your mom?

Speaker 1 Nice. Nice.
Will's trying to date you.

Speaker 2 And I watched news like while eating dinner because, you know, it was better than actually talking to anybody. And

Speaker 2 so, but I never really thought I would do it. And I went to college and was, I actually interned at the CIA and I decided not to do that.
What? And I knew we're going to ask about that.

Speaker 1 So go ahead.

Speaker 2 All the stuff I was interested in was going overseas and

Speaker 2 experiencing stuff. And so, yeah, I made a fake, I had a friend make a fake press pass for me and I borrowed a camera and I started going to wars.

Speaker 1 No way. That's so crazy.
Really? No way.

Speaker 1 What was fascinating about that to you? Like, I always find that fascinating, like, just from a viewer, is like, why do they have to stand in the war zone?

Speaker 1 Can't they just tell us about it from somewhere safe?

Speaker 2 Actually, no, LIKE. You do, I mean, there's nothing, nothing can compare to actually being in a place.

Speaker 1 But, like, but also, like, when they're standing in the middle of a hurricane, forget the war, but we're standing in the middle of a hurricane. You don't have to do that.
Yeah, no, that's it.

Speaker 1 We can just see that it's bad outside. You know, it's funny.
When news organizations,

Speaker 1 when a big news story breaks and you go, and I've seen you at so many, they've been hurricanes or big wars or whatever, you've done it all. We've all seen you.
America, the world has seen you there.

Speaker 1 But it is funny when some big event happens, the race for news people to get on site is kind of like when someone famous dies and go to Wikipedia to see who writes it on their page first.

Speaker 1 It's like this race.

Speaker 1 Who's fastest to make it about them? Yeah. Well, no, not about them.
I actually mean more like just to get there.

Speaker 1 Like i'm always surprised it almost on the scene yeah i can't believe it like so but so so that's my follow-up question is what happens russia invades ukraine let's say or something of that how quickly does that decision get made like you're i don't know you're at the gym you might not even be at work or you're with your family and then all of a sudden you're is it 30 seconds and you're out the door Basically, yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I have like a go bag and I keep my passport with me at all times.

Speaker 1 Like a bat signal, but it's the Cooper signal. What's in the go bag? Yeah, what is the go bag?

Speaker 1 How many pairs of underwear?

Speaker 2 Like two. Underwear is not important.

Speaker 1 Hey, I like not there. Hey, man.

Speaker 1 I'm taking, bro. Come on.

Speaker 1 So it's just

Speaker 1 two pair.

Speaker 1 It's just two pair.

Speaker 1 I mean, these, but. Do you really have something like, are you pretty prepared for that?

Speaker 2 There's a pair. I'll tell you, there's like a pair of boots, steel-toed boots,

Speaker 2 there's, you know, like, it's mostly like food supplies and like technical stuff. The clothes are like, you know, there's like two pairs, two dark t-shirts so you can sweat and not see it on camera.

Speaker 1 But really, truly, are you really prepared to go like any moment? Like, do you really have a bag type of thing ready? I do, yeah. He's just got a go bag.

Speaker 1 Sean's got a go bag. It's got two pounds of Skittles

Speaker 1 and 50 little small things of soy sauce. Hey,

Speaker 1 Anderson, do you have a Dop Kit in there? By the way, we're going to ask you to follow up if you know where Dop Kit came from, but do you have a Dop Kit in there? A Dob kit?

Speaker 2 What is a Dopkit? Dop kit.

Speaker 1 Dop kit.

Speaker 1 That's not what people call it, Will. That's why they call it it.
It's a toiletry bag. It's a toiletry bag.
It's not a toiletry bag. It's not a bad thing.

Speaker 2 No, I don't. I'm not, I feel like a toiletry bag is a step of adulthood, like galashes or an umbrella, which I'm not ready to commit to.

Speaker 1 Well, what are you doing?

Speaker 2 I'm not that organized.

Speaker 1 You don't have a, like, what you call a toiletry bag?

Speaker 2 I don't have a bag, but I just put stuff in, like, it's all free-floating in my bag.

Speaker 1 CVS bang on it. Hang on a second.

Speaker 1 Look at your toothbrush.

Speaker 1 It's messy. Your toothbrush is banging around with the steel toes? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's outrageous.

Speaker 1 This is a disaster.

Speaker 2 Okay, in all honesty, there's a pocket in the, like, the duffel bag that I put like all that stuff in, but it's all just floating around in that pocket. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back.

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Speaker 1 And now back to the show.

Speaker 1 So none of that scares the shit out of you. Like, what is the draw? What is the thing inside of you?

Speaker 1 I got to get to the middle of where everybody's shooting guns and bowling bombs.

Speaker 2 It comes from a really healthy place, I'll tell you that.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 2 honestly, the honest answer is, I mean,

Speaker 2 you know, I don't want to bring it down, but yeah, my dad died when I was a kid. My brother died by suicide when I was 21.
He was 23.

Speaker 2 And I wanted to go places where the language of loss was spoken, where,

Speaker 2 you know, when you are feeling grief and dealing with loss and don't really know how to deal with it, and you want to be around other people who...

Speaker 2 are facing it and living through it and where it's not, where it's something people talk about about and are living and it's very real here people don't talk about that stuff and it makes it worse if you're suffering and did you know that did you know that before you went or did is this something that in retrospect you kind of understand no I was pretty aware I mean I didn't realize I didn't connect all the dots initially I just had this impulse of like you know I'm drawn to

Speaker 2 And mostly places where people are suffering that wasn't getting a lot of attention. That was sort of, you know, the first place I went was Burma.

Speaker 2 I snuck into Burma and hooked up with some students fighting the Burmese government in the jungles, and I shot a story of them.

Speaker 2 And then I ended up in Somalia in the early days of a famine before the U.S. got there and the whole Black Hawk Down thing happened.
It was in August of 92.

Speaker 2 And I was just drawn to places where, yeah, where people were suffering and where I, I mean, I wanted to tell their story.

Speaker 2 I wanted other people to know about it, but I also wanted to learn how to survive.

Speaker 1 Did it heal you?

Speaker 2 I don't know about healing, but

Speaker 2 I learned I could survive and I learned how to survive from a lot of people I met.

Speaker 2 And I learned a lot about myself and a lot about other people and the power of people to get through the worst things that have ever happened to them, things which I don't think I could personally survive.

Speaker 2 You know, people who've had horrific things done to them and every day get up and take care of their children and hold their head up high and in the face of it.

Speaker 1 And to that point, you touched on this a little bit. Like, what is that culture shock from going to these other countries and then coming back to the United States where people are like,

Speaker 1 you know, the most mundane issues? Like, I mean, we have real issues here, but what I'm saying, compared to other countries,

Speaker 2 yeah, I actually lived in LA. When I first started, I was working for this thing called Channel One.

Speaker 2 It was seen in schools throughout America in the early 90s, and it was in about half the schools American. It was a 12-minute daily newscast, and I was like their foreign correspondent person.

Speaker 2 And I would come back to LA, which is where it was based, at Raleigh Studios, weirdly enough.

Speaker 2 And I just remember I was briefly in Rwanda during the genocide and

Speaker 2 I'd gone from the elections in South Africa for Mandela, which was incredible, to this horrific genocide in Rwanda.

Speaker 2 And I came back to LA and I just felt like I couldn't speak the same language as people and all I wanted to do was kind of just get on a plane and go somewhere else again.

Speaker 1 Well, because it's real. I mean, there's...

Speaker 1 It must feel very real or

Speaker 1 to some degree more real than what's going on. I mean, you're there dealing with this stuff and Sean's making a Bud Light commercial, you know, back in the 90s.

Speaker 1 I mean, that honestly, sorry, Sean, you should be ashamed of yourself.

Speaker 1 And I'm sure you are a riddle of a shame.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 no, but in truth, though, I mean, that's a very,

Speaker 1 for a young man who's trying to process a lot of stuff, that's very, very heavy. And in a lot of way, you know what you're doing.
You're subjecting yourself to it.

Speaker 1 And you also know that you're doing it at the same time. Like, there must have been a couple, you're kind of of two minds while it's happening, yes, no?

Speaker 2 No, that's 100%. And yeah, it makes regular life seem very dull and it's hard to return back to a regular life with that.
All you want to do is kind of go back out.

Speaker 2 But when you're out, you're miserable and lonely and sad and it's horrific stuff around you and people are, you know, you're meeting people who are stuck in these situations and you're going to leave and that brings with it

Speaker 2 its own sort of weirdness.

Speaker 1 Were there any complications or concerns about going into those areas given the family that you were coming from?

Speaker 1 Did you get any resistance

Speaker 1 from your family or lawyers or something like, hey, Anderson, hold on a second. You get kidnapped in this area.

Speaker 1 I mean, seriously.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 No,

Speaker 2 my mom was actually amazingly supportive of it. I mean, you know, she was...

Speaker 2 alone

Speaker 2 and she was just her and I at that point and you know she was really cool about it I mean I sort of lied to her a lot early on I'd be like oh yeah no it's not so

Speaker 2 it's not so bad. It's not so bad like you see on TV.

Speaker 1 You start to exaggerate.

Speaker 2 I was in Egypt during the revolution against Mubarak and got attacked. And I call my mom that morning and I was like, no, I'm just going to stay by the pool today and hang out.

Speaker 2 And of course, like, there was no pool and I would not be staying by it.

Speaker 1 Wait, Anderson, can I go? Can we go to Egypt? Is it safe?

Speaker 1 You too? Sure. I mean, I don't know.
It's a little late. Is Scotty good with that? Yeah, Scotty wants to go really, we want to really go really bad.

Speaker 2 Oh, got it.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, it's not great for the gays I got to tell you I know that's what I heard that's what I heard I mean I mean there's a lot well I don't want to I mean so we'll just call each other roommate

Speaker 1 yeah

Speaker 2 I mean you I don't know you're well-known but I mean that brings with it its own thing like you know like yeah I'm not sure you're a very well-known gay person can you go

Speaker 2 you know I got beat up there so I haven't been back since I got beat up but um

Speaker 1 great line of questioning Sean

Speaker 1 Anderson

Speaker 1 by the way triple triple I just want to visit the pyramids. That's all.

Speaker 1 Now, Anderson, the stuff you've seen over there,

Speaker 1 being all brave as you are, witnessing all of this stuff,

Speaker 1 is it, do you have a certain muscle that you've developed to sort of shed all those horrible things that could really wreck wreck some folks

Speaker 1 as far as visuals and memories and PTSD? And you've really been in a lot of tough spots.

Speaker 2 I I don't. I don't think you should.
I think the job is to sort of bear witness to stuff. And I think

Speaker 2 if you don't allow yourself to be moved by it and changed by it, and if you're like this cold observer

Speaker 2 with a distance, you're not doing justice to the people who are there. And I think you need to...

Speaker 2 expose yourself to to to it all.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess especially if your job is to is to is to relay that story to other folks. Yeah, to Jason's point though, like don't you,

Speaker 1 I mean, all of that stuff that is now that you can't unsee, that you've seen, all these horrible things in the world, how does that affect you and your family now going forward?

Speaker 1 Like, what is one of the greatest things you learned in

Speaker 1 your journalism

Speaker 1 abroad that you now apply to your family? And or what do you try to withhold from your family, your kids?

Speaker 2 I mean, I think it shows you

Speaker 2 to embrace the beautiful moments that are possible in one's life and the extraordinary, I mean, the fact that I, as a gay man, can have children in this country and

Speaker 2 we can marry if we want to, and I'm married, but

Speaker 2 you appreciate all the more what there is, and you appreciate the

Speaker 2 kind of the moments of beauty and joy and love that you do actually find.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So that as a follow-up, and you see all this, we talk about all this horrible stuff that you've seen on your, you know, in your journalistic career overseas or whatever traumatic things etc and and then you're able to appreciate the fact that you have these freedoms uh that you enjoy as an american here in america

Speaker 1 are you worried about now conversely about horrible seeing horrible things in this country and we've all sort of been able to bear witness to a lot of

Speaker 1 a pretty darkened a shift that seems rather dark as a as a as a newer American than the three of you,

Speaker 1 that I find to be quite troubling and dark. And you talk about the freedom as a gay man to have kids and to be married

Speaker 1 if you choose. We are entering a very dark age.
And as a newsman,

Speaker 1 you've been right on the front line of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, look, I mean, I'm optimistic about this country, and I'm optimistic about the people in this country. And I think we're going through a very strange time.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I choose to,

Speaker 2 you know, I choose to believe in the best in people. Me too.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 2 we go, we attack left, we tack right, you know, but we've moved forward as a country, and I hope that continues.

Speaker 2 But I do think people are capable of anything. I think we're all capable of anything.
I think we have no idea.

Speaker 2 You have no idea what happens when the electricity goes out and there's no windows in your building anymore and the wind is whipping through and it's the winter and you can't feed your kids and you can't get them milk.

Speaker 2 And, you know, people are capable of anything. And I've seen that and that worries me.

Speaker 1 I don't mean left or right. I just mean in general, in terms of people.
There's a sort of a sentiment that feels like it's very

Speaker 1 there are

Speaker 1 some, there is a kind of a vibe that's nerve-wracking. I'll just put it that way.
Yeah, but

Speaker 1 I'm with Anderson. I'm sure you guys are too.

Speaker 1 There's an optimism that is sort of impossible not to feel

Speaker 1 when you just think of

Speaker 1 the totality of this country and all the things that we've been through before. This is not the first time we've gone through real growing pains and

Speaker 1 border pushing, you know. And

Speaker 1 I think we'll land just fine, I hope.

Speaker 2 And by the way, I've seen plenty of places that have fallen apart and societies that have collapsed. I mean, that's what interested me initially in going to places like that.
And

Speaker 2 it is horrible. And nobody, I mean, whatever rhetoric people are saying here, the reality of that,

Speaker 2 if they actually see it, they will not be pushing for any any kind of civil war. I mean, it is, what happens is a horrible, horrible thing.
Right, right, right.

Speaker 1 What are these, you know, like going back to the thing where you like have to drop everything at, you have to leave at the drop of a hat and pack and go to all these places.

Speaker 1 Don't you have to get like clearance and all this stuff? And everybody in the world knows who you are and they know that you're gay.

Speaker 1 So what about these countries where you have to go to report where they're like, oh, God, the gay guy from that channel's coming and he's got clearance. We got to let him in.

Speaker 1 You know, is that, do you ever...

Speaker 2 Sometimes, I mean, clearance is like visas sometime in some places, but for the most part, you just get on a plane and go and figure it out once you get there.

Speaker 2 And yeah, I mean, initially, I was traveling all by myself to Jason's point earlier, and that was, you know, ridiculously risky and stupid in a lot of places I was going.

Speaker 2 You know, in some places we have security, but it's, you know, it's a concern. I mean, it's definitely changed the security situation when I'm on the ground in places.

Speaker 2 The CNN, thankfully, is very cognizant of that. But for the most part, you know,

Speaker 2 you have to go.

Speaker 2 I mean, I want to go still, and you have to go and that's just part of the job.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so with your incredible position at CNN and at 60 Minutes,

Speaker 1 you have the opportunity, I'm sure, to decide what stories you're going to do, things that are interesting to you that you might stumble upon or told about.

Speaker 1 How do you decide which show to do the story for? How does that work?

Speaker 2 I mean, for the most part, you know, 60 Minutes is, I do like 10 stories a year. The average correspondent does 20, so I do like a half load.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the, yeah, it's just stuff that interests me. And some of it is producers suggesting it.

Speaker 2 And other times, you know, other times it's, I did a profile of Tony Bennett, you know, who was having his final concerts with Lady Gaga.

Speaker 2 And his family let us spend the months before the concert leading up to it with Tony in his apartment and going through what he's going through.

Speaker 2 And so, I mean, that was, you know, the chance to do that is just incredible. I got it.
I got to, I had a piece on recently about this artist, Lori Anderson, who I've loved since I was a teenager.

Speaker 2 She came out with the song, Oh, Superman. And she's just cool.
She's 75, and a lot of people don't know who she is.

Speaker 2 And so it's so cool to be able to be like, you know, Laurie Anderson's really interesting. Let's do a story.
And 60 Minutes is like, yeah, okay, sure.

Speaker 2 And so it doesn't have to be someone who has a movie or out, it can just be somebody who's kind of interesting. And that's amazing.
I love it.

Speaker 1 What happens if you get yourself a guest either on 60 Minutes or on 360,

Speaker 1 and they're just not really giving you the answers that you either want to hear or that you know are

Speaker 2 the burning fire of a thousand.

Speaker 1 But you're so, you're so,

Speaker 1 you're a good dude that you can just, you can see it. And so being confrontational is something that I'm sure you're not that comfortable with, but it is part of your job.

Speaker 1 How do you reconcile those two things?

Speaker 2 Well, I'm not going to, I mean, if someone's just not a good guest, I'm not going to be confrontational with them because they're not a good guest.

Speaker 2 Although I do know a producer once, a producer for six minutes once, I was with him in Niger

Speaker 2 and it was like a malnutrition crisis and we had flown all the way there and we're doing this story about this thing called Plumpy Nut, which is saving the lives of thousands, hundreds of thousands of kids over the years.

Speaker 2 Anyway, we go and we interview this doctor and it's just not going well. And like we've come all this way and like we thought she was the character, but it's just not going well.

Speaker 2 And I try everything I can do. I, you know, all the little interviewing techniques, none of it works.
Finally, the producer goes, you know what?

Speaker 2 You're like a boring professor from a class no one wants to take.

Speaker 1 And I was like, okay, I think we're done here. I think

Speaker 1 that's what the woman said?

Speaker 2 No, no, that's what the producer said to the woman. And he was trying to like jumpstart, he was trying to like put the pads on her and like jumpstart her heart.

Speaker 1 It killed him. And like, yeah.

Speaker 2 We ended up, you know, we saved the story. But so yeah, but that's not something I would ever say to somebody.

Speaker 2 But yeah, confrontation is not something I have a tradition of, but I will say I've gotten to the point where I'm very comfortable confronting people if they are not telling the truth because it really pisses me off when someone's not telling the truth.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but but that that necessitates you being

Speaker 1 as aware of the facts as this politician might and totally that then I my next question is where do you find the time to be as educated as you need to be to do your job as well as you do

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Speaker 2 So ideally, if you're doing an interview like that that you know is going to be confrontational, I mean, I spend hours reading. I try to read like everything that person has said.

Speaker 2 If you know it's going to be confrontational, if you know that they have stated things which are not true and you know you want to zero in on it, you zero on in just a few points and I try to read everything they've said over the last like six months or six weeks at least because generally people repeat themselves over and over.

Speaker 2 So you can see in multiple interviews what somebody has already said and then you know okay they're going to make they're going to tell this lie and then you you have all the facts backed up.

Speaker 2 So if you you know if you do your research you have the advantage of knowing what they're going to say sometimes and if they fall into that trap then you can just say okay well actually here's here's the facts here according to this organization this organization and there's nothing more satisfying than that yeah you got the real silk glove and you do yeah than burning than burning somebody on on tv or just well it's not even so much burning them on tv it's more just like just stating facts to somebody who is.

Speaker 1 Because most people who are doing interviews,

Speaker 2 you know, they pop up on the screen, they don't have the facts with them, so they can't really challenge somebody.

Speaker 2 So, if you have the time to actually do the research, there's nothing more satisfying than that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Will wants to know where you get your news from.
He always asks a journalist, where do you he thinks that there's like some abatement, he's trying to cover up his zone.

Speaker 1 He's almost like you get that they that journalists have some secret well here's my thing.

Speaker 1 Where do the news reporters get their news if they're not going to be able to do that? They're reporting on the stuff that's happening.

Speaker 1 But like, okay, where does Maggie Haberman get her get her information from after she'll be able to

Speaker 1 interview people?

Speaker 2 Maggie Haberman has contacts that she has developed over the years and or whenever, and she contacts them and she breaks news. And then other people,

Speaker 2 sometimes people report what Maggie Haberman has said, or we report what the Times has said, or we have folks at CNN who have, you know, the sources and you know that's what you either talk to people directly or what do you you think that Maggie Hayrun is up in her bedroom like fucking copying USA Today with her feet up in the air

Speaker 1 Maggie dinner's ready hang on I'm just writing out my fucking story for tomorrow that I'm copying from another what are you right but but Anderson Anderson is he doesn't have like he's not down in in in the in the in the in the underground parking lot like like Hal Hallbrook and Maggie I'm not in the halls in Mar-a-Lago talking to

Speaker 1 someone like the waiter so he's so he's got an incredible staff question mark.

Speaker 2 So yeah, so I've got I've got, you know, for CNN here, you know, I've got a team of like 30 people,

Speaker 2 but we have all these correspondents to rely on and all these guests to rely on. And Maggie Haberman is a contributor to CNN.
And so we can bring her on and talk about what she's broken.

Speaker 1 So you've got a show tonight you're about to do. So I'd imagine, so you've got, I know we're going to let you go here soon.

Speaker 1 And so you're going to get in probably a big room with those 30 staff members and they're going to say, here's what happened today. Here's what you should know.
And yes. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, this happens in the morning. So it's, it's, we're talking

Speaker 2 in the almost evening on the East Coast. And so that happened early this morning of like, okay, we're our correspondence.
What do we think is going to happen? But stuff changes all throughout the day.

Speaker 2 And even while we're on the air, stuff changes. And so what you have to do basically is you have to just read stuff all day long.
So I like reading. I like learning stuff.

Speaker 2 So you just read stuff all day long so that in the middle of the program, when what you think is going to be the 45 minutes, the last 45 minutes of your show gets tossed out because something else has happened, you already know enough in your head that you can talk about that for 45 minutes, even if there's no teleprompter and there's no guests, there's nothing.

Speaker 2 You just have done a lot of research. It's not scary.

Speaker 1 Right. So like when there's something happens, let's say, Jason, there's something, so-and-so was indicted or whatever, that story is released.
They make a statement.

Speaker 1 The clerks do, whoever, whatever, and the guys who work and women, everybody who works with Anderson, give them all that stuff, and then they develop a story based on those facts, you fucking idiot.

Speaker 1 But it is kind of interesting, like the trickle down, like you know, all the people on the ground getting the story, then reports to this person, then reports to that, and then it finally gets to you, and then you put it on the airport.

Speaker 2 Right, but you know, the most interesting thing for like live television is you're on the air, something happens.

Speaker 2 You know, God forbid, a plane crashes, and all you have are a few sentences of information. You know the flight number, you know what time it took off, you know where it was supposed to go.

Speaker 2 And so you go into rolling coverage and that means that everyone who's in the control room, it's suddenly like all hands on deck, they start calling flights, you know, flight experts, aviation experts, anybody they can possibly think of, somebody from the Department of Transport, the Secretary of Transportation, the Department of Transportation, the NTSB, whatever it is.

Speaker 2 And on air, you start relaying the information, you point out what you don't know, and you have an ongoing conversation that can go from anywhere from 30 seconds. You can be on for nine hours.

Speaker 1 What are you doing when you get rid of all this out of your head and just to like check out? What are you doing? With the kids? You're playing with the kids. What are you watching?

Speaker 2 I'm the most tightly wound person that there is.

Speaker 1 What do you do to unwind? Do you start watching some of the Andy Cohen stuff and you just start chewing a bunch of gummies? What happens?

Speaker 2 So, no, so this is what this is going to sound totally like I'm sucking up to you.

Speaker 2 I find it, I watch, I go home and I watch stuff that completely takes me out of my head and out of my world. So, like Ozark, for instance.
Sure, sure. I am obsessed.
I have loved it.

Speaker 2 It is, I think, one of the greatest shows. No, no, one of the greatest shows in television.
And it so takes me out of my head and into this other world.

Speaker 2 I find it relaxing. I found Ozark relaxing.
I found Narcos relaxing.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Like

Speaker 2 Gamora, which is i don't know

Speaker 2 of course it is the greatest it's amazing it's but but ozark i it was so genius and the last season was genius and the end was incredible

Speaker 2 you're very nice thank you i love it too yeah and i your character i'm the same way of like you know like oh okay that person just got shot in the head okay so now we have to do this all right so let's do that so that is how i deal with everything yeah same i'm a little bit like let me ask you let me ask you about gamora did you see the chiro spin-off movie?

Speaker 2 I did. I didn't love it.

Speaker 1 I didn't love it either.

Speaker 2 But you know what? I don't want to criticize anything about Gamora because I just, I didn't even like the movie Gamora so much. The TV show, I just,

Speaker 2 it's mindful.

Speaker 1 And I want to,

Speaker 1 I'm not here to one-up you, Anderson. I think you're great.
Oh, boy. Did you read the book?

Speaker 2 I did, actually. Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 1 The book is great. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Roberto Saviano.

Speaker 2 It's fucking good. Yeah, who's been in hiding ever since he wrote this stuff.
I read his, he had another book, his most recent book I read, which I didn't really get into.

Speaker 1 Did you get that one, Redwell? I did not. I did not read it.

Speaker 1 Oh, you didn't? Oh, I'll send it to you.

Speaker 1 And we're back. And we're back.

Speaker 1 So now,

Speaker 1 the New Year's thing seems like I get the hair down, relax a little bit thing. How did that come about? Did you raise your hand? Yeah, for how many releases do you have to sign into CNN?

Speaker 1 Just like, man, just fucking cool it this year.

Speaker 2 No, you know what's

Speaker 2 funny? So I've been doing that for like, I just, I started volunteering to do New Year's because I hated New Year's Eve.

Speaker 2 I started volunteering like 15 years ago because no one at CNN was doing it and they needed somebody. And I was like, I hate New Year's Eve.
You can have fun. There's too much pressure.

Speaker 2 Clubs in New York, like there's too many long lines.

Speaker 2 You end up fighting over cabs with drunk girls. So I was like, you know what? I'll just work on New Year's Eve.
And I'd never been in Times Squares on New Year's Eve.

Speaker 2 And it turned out I actually really liked it. It was fun.
I could come and go. And so, yeah.
And then Andy joined. And it's been.

Speaker 1 Yeah. It's like the one thing I look forward to that evening.
You guys are great at it.

Speaker 2 And he's a, you know, he enjoys

Speaker 2 a little drink now and then.

Speaker 1 And so he wrote me into that.

Speaker 1 God, he's fun. He's a fun dude.

Speaker 1 Now, when you mentioned your mom finding out about, you know, you doing all this and being and wanting to go out in crazy situations in other countries and be, you know, like that, are you do you, what would you do if one of your sons came up and said, you know what, Dad, I'm going to, I'm going to run out to the store really quick and they're in Bosnia or whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, well, you know, my son's two, so if he did that, I would be really

Speaker 1 okay. Ozzy is actually gorgeous, right? Yeah, okay, sorry.
Well, at this time of year, it's nice.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, look, I hope I would be the parent who's supportive of anything my kids want to do.

Speaker 2 And I would have like a team of special force, former Special Forces people secretly following them around.

Speaker 1 I'm sure. I'm sure.
Now, before we let you go, I want to hear about your podcast. Now, so it's called All There with Anderson Cooper.
Now, this is

Speaker 2 called All There Is, but that's fine. No, that's fine.

Speaker 1 All There Is. All There Is Good change.
Good change there. So started with all that.
No.

Speaker 1 Is it

Speaker 1 this this has to do with a bit of

Speaker 1 your life before journalism, yes?

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's basically it's a podcast, like the world needs another podcast, but

Speaker 2 it's just a limited podcast, you know, eight or 10 episodes or something. And it's about loss and about grief.
And it's about,

Speaker 2 yeah, it's about people's experiences with that and living with that and moving through it. And it's something we don't really talk about.

Speaker 2 I i think it makes people uncomfortable so i don't know if anyone will actually listen to it but it's just interesting people who have kind of remarkable experiences talk with loss and grief in their own life from stephen colbert who i know you guys have had on i loved your episode with him um you know his father and and his twin brothers were killed in a plane crash when he was 10 years old um

Speaker 2 you know, Molly Shannon,

Speaker 2 who, you know, has had the incredible experiences as well. And just really interesting people, a palliative care doctor

Speaker 2 who's been at the bedside of many people as their life ended. And so it's just about, you know, it's not depressing.
It's just kind of just talking about loss.

Speaker 1 No, it's part of life. And we had Michael Lewis, the author, on

Speaker 1 a while ago. And

Speaker 1 he talked about loss in a way that I'd never heard anybody talk about. It's really remarkable and very moving.

Speaker 1 And I think you're right. I think it is important to talk about it.
And

Speaker 1 I'll listen to it. I'm looking forward to it.
Yeah, you could walk us through any subject and it would be

Speaker 1 palatable for sure.

Speaker 1 Nobody has more losses than me, okay? I mean,

Speaker 1 let's get rid of it, you poor guy.

Speaker 1 Now,

Speaker 1 for fun with the kids,

Speaker 1 what do you love to do? What are they loving?

Speaker 2 So, my son, Wyatt, is like two years and like three or four months, and

Speaker 2 my son Sebastian is six months old. And they are just, I mean, just, I always have wanted to be a dad.
I love kids, and it's the greatest thing I've ever done.

Speaker 2 It's the only thing I, I mean, I just am so besotted with them.

Speaker 2 And I like nothing more than,

Speaker 2 you know, I spend most of the, a lot of the day with them. I mean, I do a lot of work now just from home.
I love being there when he wakes up in the morning.

Speaker 2 I like going in and waking him up in the morning and going out, we go out for coffee.

Speaker 2 And like, he's one of, like, his first phrase was, I want a black, a coffee, which is probably not a great thing for a

Speaker 1 black coffee.

Speaker 1 So you've got, now that you've got two kids and you're able to compare the two of them and also the sort of the age difference there,

Speaker 1 most fibbers will say that they love the first year.

Speaker 1 Now, I'm sure you're going to say the same thing, but now that you've got one that's beyond the first year, two and a half, don't like, isn't it amazing? Not quite two.

Speaker 1 No, two and a half and six years.

Speaker 2 Almost two and a half.

Speaker 1 Almost two and a half.

Speaker 1 So to me, it was like my dog learned how to talk. Yeah.
You know, because the whole first year, that's all they are is that they're just a puppy.

Speaker 1 They're shitting everywhere and screaming and you just there's no communication. And then all of a sudden, they learn how to say, I like this park and not that park or this food and not that food.

Speaker 2 And it's incredible.

Speaker 1 Right through the ceiling.

Speaker 2 I know. And this morning, like my son,

Speaker 2 he came, he came, like, I came upstairs right before I left for work and he saw me. He ran to me and like hugged me.

Speaker 2 which he, you know, obviously he's done before, but he's just so pretty. He's so there now.

Speaker 2 Like he's, I know, you know, he's all baked in there like i just need to not him up i just need to not like pass on my insane controlling uh

Speaker 2 you won't i got you i got you but yeah but i i totally agree with you i mean like the dog who's now talking it's the best thing ever it's like oh my god i could i didn't think it could get any better i feel like my head and my heart are about to explode yeah so what did you do anderson what did you because you you just said it and i i know this about you everything has to be in order maybe a little bit just controlling maybe just like everything has its place.

Speaker 1 And then now you have two little adorable amazing boys who throw things, knock things over, dirty shit up, right on the wall, like whatever it is. Does that, what does that do to you?

Speaker 2 You know, I like to keep their stuff ultimately a little clean when they go to bed. I clean them a little bit.

Speaker 2 But I don't,

Speaker 2 like, I don't want to pass on any of that stuff. So I'm like, you know what? And they have an entire floor to themselves.
I'm on the floor right beneath. I live in an old firehouse.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's their floor. And I'm fine with it.

Speaker 1 Wait, you live in an old firehouse? I thought that you lived in the Time Warner Center and that you just had a fire pole. That's how I imagine how you live.

Speaker 1 But is there a fire pole? That's always my dream, by the way. Yeah, true story.

Speaker 2 I've kept the fire poles, of course. Truly?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. I want to keep it.

Speaker 2 There's a stable in the back for horses because the engines were horse drugs.

Speaker 1 Please let me come over. I want to slide down that thing.
Amazing. So what I'm getting is your kids live on a different floor than you.
He said it. Yeah.
Yes.

Speaker 1 People have different bedrooms even scotty have different bedrooms that's that's true

Speaker 1 we sleep in separate bedrooms um anderson you go do your thing and yeah we love you

Speaker 1 we love stuff we love to watch i really love what you guys do and it's i i can't believe i love what you do i've been able to be on this and it's it's it's okay you can say you love us too yeah you're the best thank you for for doing this you're real real busy you could have easily said no but thank you for not Thank you.

Speaker 1 Thank you. Thanks, Anderson.
Thank you, Anderson. Great to meet you.
It's such a pleasure. All right.
Thank you guys. Bye, pal.
See you guys. Bye.

Speaker 1 I really like that fellow, guys. I don't care who knows it.
I'll scream it from the rooftops.

Speaker 1 He's entertaining all the way around. Real sweet on him.
I like it when he starts to break, when he starts to laugh. He's really funny.
Yeah, he starts to titter. You don't expect that.

Speaker 1 He starts to titter. Yeah.
Yeah. It's really fun.
But, but brilliant, like journalists, but also, I was going to ask him because, Jason, in your intro, you said how private this person was.

Speaker 1 I was like, oh, I wonder how they're going to be as a guest. And you revealed that it was Anderson.
And I know how private he was before he came out.

Speaker 1 There seemed to be something,

Speaker 1 I was going to say this to him, and I'll say this to his face, but a little not fully there.

Speaker 1 And then after he came out, it was like, oh, there's the guy.

Speaker 1 Now he's hosting New Year's Eve.

Speaker 1 Now he's out and he's proud and he's happy. He has his family.
He has a lot to share. And you see it now when he reports on TV and stuff.
I think it's really, really great.

Speaker 1 I wonder if he felt like, you know, the sort of the...

Speaker 1 I don't know if it was the gay thing or not.

Speaker 1 Well, but maybe like because he wanted to be a, you know, a respected journalism guy and Edward R. Murrow and Walter Crony.

Speaker 1 This guy knows what he's talking about.

Speaker 1 And he needs to be all buttoned up. And then once he's like, Jason is like, yeah, so maybe that was a part of it.
Maybe that's like you need to. But anyway, super, super guy.

Speaker 1 And by the way, funny, like really funny. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I'd like, listen, as I said, I'd like to spend more time with him. I don't know if you guys have a number on him.
I do. I have all his contact info.
I do. He doesn't have to be able to do it.

Speaker 1 Well, we're gay. All the gay people have each other.
Is that right? I feel like you're joking, but is that true? I always assumed that. It's the Gello pages, the gay yellow pages.
Wonderful stuff.

Speaker 1 I had a bunch of really good jokes. I will tell you this.
This is the respect I have for you. I'm surprised you didn't have anything for Plumpy Nut.

Speaker 1 I did. You did?

Speaker 1 I know that really stuck out to me, too.

Speaker 1 Guys, I love you. We're not doing anything clever today, but saying.

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Yeah, because you can hang up. Will and I are going to think about something that's worthy of our listener.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 We had a great.

Speaker 1 I was not saying it was against the listeners. Yeah, the listener.
Yeah, what if

Speaker 1 somebody just tunes in for that? Right. You know, they're just like.
If we could reach one kid, they put up those three times speed until they get, yeah, until they get to the end.

Speaker 1 So we're going to sit here.

Speaker 1 Sean,

Speaker 1 why? Sean, I tell you what, though, I'm not going to be mad at you. You know why? Why? Because I'm going to let Baigo be

Speaker 1 Bigo.

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