"Kerry Washington"

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My name is Jason. I will be one of three hosts.
I'm an on-time host. You're going to have a couple of tardy hosts joining us soon.
If not, you're just going to get me, just a solo episode with me. I hope that's not your future.
But until then, let me tell you a little bit about myself. I'm a Capricorn, a Sag Moon.
I love things sweetened with anything other than sugar. I've had addiction issues.
I've got a handle on that,

I think, unless you put something sweetened with sugar in front of me. It's a real trigger

situation for me. I just go right down a hillside full of sin.
Oh, just in time,

here are the idiots. Guys, welcome to SmartLess.
SmartLess. SmartLess.
SmartLess. The listener does not know this, but this is our second episode today that we're recording.
So what did you guys do in between shows? I had a little egg sandwich. I had pasta.
That I made myself. Not an egg salad sandwich like Sean would have made.
You had an egg salad? Now, what was the bread? Was it actual bread? Not really. What was it? It was gluten-free bread that, you know, I had to toast to within an inch of its life, so it tasted decent.
And then I put a little fake butter on it, and then the eggs on top of it. Okay, hang on to that.
I'm pretty sure the eggs were real. We had a conversation with our friend on a different episode about enjoying ourselves and stuff, you know? But I feel that, but it's as

interesting. I'm pretty sure the eggs were real.
We had a conversation with our friend on a different episode about enjoying ourselves and stuff, you know. But I feel it.
But it isn't. But I enjoy it.
It tastes great. I enjoy it.
I enjoy. Now, last night we went out for a family dinner to this yummy little restaurant down the street that specializes in Italian food.
So I ordered a nice big fat cheese pizza.

Oh, you did?

And I whiffed down more of that than probably I should have.

And we had some pasta and I had...

In BH or in the valley?

Down in Laurel Canyon.

Oh, a little Pocce.

Yeah, yeah, a little Pocce.

You guys went to Pocce?

Oh, you went Pocce, not Pocce.

No, I know, but I say Pocce, you leave it off.

That's how you know that you leave it off. That's how you leave it off.
We'll go to Pache. Hey, there's Mabe, and she can't hear us.
Hi, Mabe. Oh, wait.
Hi, Mable. That was Mable, yeah.
She's over here. Are you guys going for dinner tonight together? We're going to go over to our friend's house, and we're going to celebrate our friend Sean because he's...
He had a birthday a while ago. He had a birthday a while ago.
And we... I wish I could be there with you guys.
I know. I know.
I'm going to miss you. Well, you know, we'll FaceTime you.
You FaceTimed in last week. I will FaceTime again.
Yeah, FaceTime in again. I will.
This face? You got to give it time. Who's got time for that? Is the rest of your body as dark as your face, Will? Yeah, yeah, of course.
I didn't ask to see it. Put your top back on.
I know. That is a tan like nobody's ever seen.
It's really good. So do you read, though? You said you read three books while you were there.
Was it just for the bounce effect of the paper? Or do you enjoy reading? You just hope it's a happen. That's the sun takeover.
What were the three books? Do you remember them? Were they all nonfiction? Were they all World War II books? The Giving Tree? No. Again.
I haven't finished my third, to be honest. What were the first two? Were they just airport fiction? Well, one of them is my dad's book, Being Fate, which I finally read, which is amazing.
I'm so proud of my dad, Jim Arnett, who wrote a book during the pandemic. Yeah, that's incredible.
And he wrote this sort of fictionalized this novel based on history and got it published. That's cool.
Yeah, it's really cool. And honestly, I was reading it.
I was just thinking the whole time. I'm like, I'm so, my dad did this.
I'm so proud of my dad. Yeah.
So it's called Bean Fate and it's really, really good.

This is about the bean farmers

of Calamongas?

No, no.

I think you're...

It's a remake

of the bean war

or something, right?

The Milagro

bean-killed war.

Good for him.

Because I don't think

they really got it

on the last one.

So, okay.

No, it's about

booze runners back you know

prohibition style you know back in the day potch yeah up in saskatchewan in the brafman family etc um so i did that and then i read the the sympathizer have you guys read that no what is that i feel like i wrote it's uh it's written by um vietnamese american uh author uh vietan when It's about the Vietnam War?

And it's about the Vietnam War, and he himself is of Vietnamese origin. Descent? Descent and origin, and he came here when he was young.
And so it just talks about the experience of, God, honestly, I couldn't have loved it more. But it's not just about that.
It's just about such an unbelievable story of, I don't know, just a guy who led a complex life and there were so many. Are there colored pictures in it for me? Any pictures of him sympathizing with folks? So many incredible, incredible passages in the book that just blew me away that I would have to read out loud.
I'll check that out. Yeah.
I'll bet you $1,000 that you don't. You won.
Yep. Why? Now, how do you decide what you're going to read when you're on the beach there? Like reading in the sun makes you want to vomit.
What I do is... Right? Sorry, then I just started...
I'm now reading this Splendid and the Vial, which a lot of people have read. These are big books.
The Sympathizer won the Pulitzer Prize. Reading in the Sun, to me, it's like being trapped in a hot car with the windows rolled up, stuck, broken.
I don't know when the driver's coming back and I have a three-year-old screaming in my ear. That's what reading on a hot beach sounds like to me.
Really? Yeah, because I'm already sweating and I'm out still And I have to concentrate on like words? Yeah, and I got the hard bounce off the paper and I can't. No, I can't do it.
I got sunglasses on and now the sweat's dripping on the glasses. I got to keep wiping the glass.
And I hear all the people having fun in the water. Yeah, it's I can't.
You know what though? I'm snacky. I get real hungry on the beach.

You know what's amazing is our guest today.

Great segue.

Our guest today is so fun.

I love her.

She's like a big megastar.

No big deal.

Whatever.

Wait, I've got it.

It's a woman.

I've got it.

I've got it.

She's been on one of the hottest primetime dramas in the last few decades.

She's born and raised in the Bronx.

She's a New Yorker through and through.

This might give it away. At a young age, she performed with the award-winning Ta-da Youth Theater Teen Group.
She graduated college with a double major in anthropology and sociology. Clearly not the right podcast for her to do.
Before winning an Emmy, one of her earliest acting kids was, I gotta ask her about this, a traveling sex education sketch group.

Her last name is not only a U.S. state, but also an apple.

Please welcome the beautiful

and extremely talented Carrie Washington.

Carrie!

Hello,

Carrie!

Let's get right into it.

A traveling, what is it?

A sex education sketch group. What is that? It was not sketchy, although we did sketches.
We were, oh my God, that's where we're starting. Okay.
We are not journalists. I'm such a mega fan of the show.
So I'm really excited and a little nervous. No, Mike.
Listen, we're just hanging out. Yeah, you can already hear what idiots we are, right? Well, every episode, but that's why we love you.
So, okay, so. Bring us up.
When I was a high schooler, when I was a teenager, I worked for the Adolescent Health Center in New York City at Mount Sinai Hospital. And it was like the beginning of the AIDS epidemic, like late 80s, early 90s.
And we used to, we wrote these sketches, these skits about safer sex issues and losing your virginity and drug abuse and LGBTQ rights. So it was like, I like, I find you attractive.
I find you attractive. Hold on, let me get a condom.
What was like, how do you ask your boyfriend to put a condom on? Or how do you put a condom on? Or how do you make that conversation sexy? Because all the research was like, people have the information, but the behavior change is not there. So we used to write these shows where we were.
I'd love to hear the first few mentions. I would too.
Let's hear it. By the way, I've had, God, Carrie, it's like you gave me a bat and you put me at the plate and I've just been standing here and you've just been throwing softballs up and I'm doing all my best because I want to impress you.
Don't hold back. Don't hold back.
No, because I don't want to be just a total dirtbag. And I'm just like, man.
Be yourself, Will. Be yourself.
It's hard. This is your space.
I'm a guest in your house. Do yourself.
What was the draft that made it to the stage on how to put on a condom in a funny, funny way? Well, we used to teach kids how to put condoms on by using bananas. So that always got a laugh.
Sure. But it was really more like, I mean, the first sketch I was allowed to do was actually a scene about whether or not I was 13 when I started doing the show.
So the only sketch they would let me do in the beginning was should I lose my virginity or not? And it was a whole sketch about, like, my really cute boyfriend who's kind of pressuring me, and I don't know if I should or shouldn't. And then the cool part, and this was actually incredible acting training, was that we would, the problems of the show were unresolved.
And we would stay in character after the show, and the audience would, like, solve our problems. We would advice so they would like be in conversation yeah we stayed in character and doesn't that mean the show's still going no like the show would end and then we do a q a but our q a would be in character and sometimes i would be playing like more than one character so i'd have like a baseball hat for the girl who wasn't sure she should lose her virginity and then like a red scarf for the girl who was like needed to tell her brother to stop selling drugs.
So we had all these different like, you know, conflict issues. And I got to develop character backstory and learn to be spontaneous.
And I found my yes and while doing sex education. What was this group that sounds somewhat charitable and, you know, altruistic? You're judging me.
I heard you judging me. No, no, no, but it sounds like you're, like, doing great things.
I wish I was doing stuff at 13 that was going around and doing, you know, but doing shows. You were doing a lot of stuff.
But doing shows for, like, hospitals, didn't you say this was, like, for? Yeah, we performed at, like, schools and community centers. How did you get involved in that? That sounds like you were walking around with a bunch of very nice people.
I have great parents. I was really into acting and my mom had read that there were auditions for this, I had done children's theater with that company, Ta-Da, that was mentioned, which is a company in Midtown.
And this was like for teenagers and my mom had seen an ad about it. And my mother's an educator, so she was like, educational theater is a great thing.
And then I came home with all these pamphlets about like gonorrhea and she was like, what is this? But I... I'd love to see the one act on gonorrhea.
And you're like, don't worry about it. We're gonna put a condom over a banana.
It'll be all good. We're gonna fix the world's problems one banana at a time.
A funny thing happened on the way to the theater. Yes, exactly.
Wait, Carrie, I want to get this out of the... Okay, guys, I have kind of a long story.
I was wondering if we were going to tell the story. We're going to do it, and we're just going to get past it.
Because how could we not do it? Should Will and I lay down? I was shocked that you asked me to be your guest because I was like, there's no way we're not telling this story. Of course we're talking about it.
With me being punked by Sean Hayes. So these guys have no idea what I'm going to say.
So it's like, if you can hang in there for like two minutes, which is a long time, but it's a long story because here we go. It's one of the most embarrassing things that's ever happened to me.
I was shooting a pilot last year and sent a long email to Carrie asking her to help me out. Let me jump in.
Let me jump in. Nicest email I've ever gotten in my life.
It's a great email. You know the notes you get from a fan where you're like, I should maybe call security because this person really loves me.
But it was from another famous person, so it was okay. And it was somebody that I respect and admire, so I was like oh my god I was so moved I was deeply moved

I meant every word

and then there was the ask

always

but she emailed me back

asked for my number and said I'd love to call you

to chat more about it

great fantastic wonderful response

at the same time I was guest hosting a few episodes

of the Jimmy Kimmel show

and while there had befriended a producer named Aaron

Aaron Irwin who's now a good friend

so one night on my way home from the shows

I'm watching Ryan Kimmel right now and you're doing great. And I was pleased by the message, but I was like perplexed because I didn't recognize the number.
And then I decided, and I deduced that it was Aaron from Kimmel who was maybe watching like a rough cut of the show because we just exchanged phone numbers as I left the studio, but I hadn't put her contact info on my phone. So I pulled over and saved the number and my contact says Erin from Kimmel.
Now I'm at home, cut to, I'm at home eagerly awaiting the call from Sean because this is my number one fan. I mean, my dad doesn't love me this much.
And now I think I'm going to get a healing because somebody who loves me is going to get on the phone with me and it's going to change my life. And even though I'm going to say no to the ask, we're going to be friends forever.
Right, right, perfect. Big load of junk food just to prop you up.
Perfect. All right, so the phone rings.
I pick it up. I say, hey, and I see it's Erin from Kimmel.
What's going on? Erin says, hi, how are you? Your email is so sweet. I couldn't wait to talk to you.
And I said, email? What email? And Aaron says, the email I sent you. And I was like, I don't remember sending you an email.
Are you sure? And that's when the tone shifted between us. And I said, Aaron said, is this Sean? And I said, yeah, who's this? And Aaron says, you didn't send me an email with your number? And then I turned into a total asshole and I go, I think you have the wrong number.
Why don't you check that email address and your contact? Then why don't you get back to me? And that's when Aaron was like, that's probably a good idea. So I go sit down.
I hang up the phone and I turn to my husband and I'm like, I'm being fucking punked because Sean Hayes sent me the nicest email I've ever gotten in my life. I just got off the phone with him and he was such a jerk to me.
And he's acting like I made up the email. I was like shaking.
I was so, I was like, why would somebody do that? Does he think I'm untalented? Like, why? I was so upset. I go sit down and talk to my husband and I'm chatting, I'm telling you, I just got the craziest phone call and 15 minutes in the conversation with Scotty, I did all the math and like a shot in a movie came zooming towards my face.
I go, I jumped up and I screamed, holy shit, that was Kerry Washington. And credits.
Opening credits. Yes, I texted you back immediately, explained everything, and begged for you to call me back, and I answered the phone and you were laughing.
I couldn't stop laughing because I was really like, I thought I was being pranked. Isn't that crazy? I was so relieved.
It was so, so lovely. Wow.
God, that was funny. My feelings were so hurt.
And I was like, oh, I'm being gaslit. Like, he's gaslighting me.
You guys have this great, now this great, like, shared history. Beautiful history.
Are you jelly? You're jealous. A little bit jelly.
Well, we had our dinner. We had our dinner.
We sat next to each other. We didn't know each other.
You were there. Don't say whoa.
You were there. Yeah, you were across the table.
Yeah, but I mean. It was for when you guys worked for me.
You know, you guys have all worked for me as a producer. That's true.
When we worked for you, when we did the Facts of Life. Live in front of a studio audience.
Wait, who was at this dinner? What are you talking about? Jason and Will were at a dinner? You know how we, when we did it, we had a cast dinner to kick off for our episode, which I wasn't a producer then, so I have not. Oh, that's right.
You were a producer on the set. That's right.
But I produced them the next two. And so these two...
Oh, sorry. Let's tell the listener what we're talking about.
Oh, we're talking about your sister for your sister. This makes me so happy.
I'm in the family. For Norman Lear's live in front of a studio audience, which all three of you have graced us and blessed us with your performances and those specials.
Yeah. And if it weren't for really active producers like you and Justin Theroux,

that show would not be moving at all.

I do a lot more than Justin Theroux.

Let me tell you something.

I just want to put that out there.

Justin Theroux, and he must be nominated

for a Producers Guild Award this year.

Because, I mean, this guy...

And amazing.

He rolls up his sleeves if he had them. He would have rolled them up.
If he'd had any sleeves, he would roll them up for sure. What is it with your thing with people not having sleeves? No, just Justin.
Just Justin. Everybody wears them except him.
Yeah, every day of his life he has a cutoff. And by the way, sometimes people don't have them when they're in the gym and stuff.
But not everybody just doesn't wear them ever. Even basketball players now wear sort of like an under sort of long sleeve thing over their, uh, you know, what usually deters people from going sleeveless winter that usually gets people to pop into a sleeve or two.
Not him. Not this guy.
Or mosquito infestations. He doesn't, it doesn't matter to him.
He's fearless that way. He's fearless that way.
Yeah. We'll be right back.

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Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about it all the time, is Scotty and of course my two best, Will and Jason.
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That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash smartlist. And now back to the show.
Kara, one thing I didn't know about you was, by the way, what a story we'll have for the rest of our life. The rest of our lives.
But double major, anthropology and sociology. Why, if you knew at such a young age you wanted to act, and have you utilized that degree? This is a great question.
So it's actually a little more complicated than that, but that's the easy answer that I give people. I designed an interdisciplinary major called performance studies, and it was inspired by, it was based on the graduate programs at NYU and Northwestern.
So it was like the study that performance plays in different societies and cultures. And that's what interested me.
But you have to, to design your own major, you have to write this whole thesis and defend it because they want to just make sure you're not trying to get out of taking statistics. So I had to kind of really work with all these academic mentors and come up with this program and design a curriculum for myself.
And yeah, I'm just, I'm super interested in how we perform like professionally, all of us, but also how we perform just in our everyday lives. And yeah, I think I have used a lot of it.
I mean, I think, you know, what we, for me, I tend to think about characters in the kind of social science context. Like, when I'm playing a character, I like to think about how she's become who she is and how she thinks and how she lives in the world and how society impacts who she is.
So I do feel like I use some of my, I feel like such a nerd.

I've been talking too long about this.

I use some of my social science.

I was about to talk about my character room that I have here.

And I go into my character room.

And I've kept all the costumes of my great characters.

All my costumes.

Yes, through the years.

Wait, now, Carrie, I'm the dumbest of the four of us.

Will you define anthropology for me? Pause, pause. He is.
Go ahead. Anthropology is the study of society, yes? Sociology is more the study of society and culture, yes.
Anthropology is— More about ants? Is this just about ants and the ant culture, right? I mean, no. It's more, anthropology is more indigenous cultures and historical culture.
So not present day society, but more the role of kind of how societies have evolved through time. Sociology would be the modern day version of anthropology.
What's currently happening. That's enough, Will.
And anthropology has a little more ritual, like study of ritual. But it's also a fabulous story.
See, there's my fellow dum-dum right there. Hi.
I like an anthropology. I like their stuff.
Well, you'd like The Sympathizer. It's a great book.
Oh, hey. Actually, it is.
All kidding. It won the Pulitzer.
Did you go to NYU? Is that what you were saying? No, no, no. NYU and Northwestern were the schools that had graduate degrees in performance studies that I admired and was interested in, but I didn't actually want to go to graduate school, so I tried to just skip ahead and do it in undergrad.
I went to GW. G-dub in D.C.
G-dub. G-duub.
G-Dub. Now, did you finish with a degree in anthropology and sociology? I finished in a degree in performance studies.
I got to actually, like, I wrote my own situation. Got it.
I created my reality. Wow.
Does anybody call you K-Dub? Yes, especially because I went to G-Dub. Yeah, people call me K-Dub.
I just thought of that. Now, wait, are you the only one with a college degree on this chat? Yeah.
Sean, what's your excuse? How far did you go? I went four years, and then I got an honorary doctorate, but I never graduated. I got one of those, too.
You just show up. I got one of those.
Yeah, if you give a speech, they give you one. You can get one of those, guys.
Sean, I understand. You went for four years.
How did you not? Isn't that how long it takes? That's a great question. I was two or three courses shy, and I just did not have any more gas in me to go.
I'm fascinated because you seem like a completer to me. I spent a lot of time with you, and you seem to have a tremendous amount of gas.
You got plenty of gas. Especially with the amount of tuna salad you eat.
Are you kidding with plain plain chips and he lights a fuse with that glass of milk and off he goes nobody kills a bag of plain chips and a glass of 2% milk did you really drink a glass of milk is it real milk like just like cow's milk yeah every day he's gonna get in his Plymouth and drive off in a minute but But wait, Sean, so you ran out of gas two credits short. Will, how far did you get? Oh, I made it half a year.
Half of the first year. Half of a year.
Yeah, that's right. Because college to me wasn't all just about the studies.
It's about the social, it's about growing up, being on your own and like figuring stuff out. I had already been out of the house.
You know, I went away to school first when I was 12. Yeah.
Now, I heard this story on the show about your clothes being taken to across town. That was different.
I was like, that's kind of child abuse, no? Yeah. Yeah, it was different.
And then they made them plant trees and fix sewer pipes, too. Yeah, and we did a lot of stuff.
I mean, look, I didn't have a—it's not that bad, believe me. But I was 12 when I left, so, oh, you got a bogey.
Someone's running around in your house. That's Emily.
The bogey locations go to two. Guys.
Emily's actually, she has listened to your show longer than I have. Hi, Emily.
Hi, Emily. Emily, they're saying hi.
Hi, Emily. She's saying hi.
I'm geeking out. She's geeking out.
When I was at dinner with you guys, when I was at dinner for the cast for Live in front of a studio audience, I actually had not listened to a single episode yet. And I was embarrassed.
And so I faked having listened to a few episodes. And I able to do so effectively she's got skills she's a professional liar I'm an actor but I I knew just from hearing Emily talk about it and also hearing my husband Nnamdi talk about it I had enough context clues and like reference points to pretend that I had seen but I hadn't I hadn't watched and listened and so went home and felt bad, so I started listening.
And then I was like, this is the best podcast ever. Jason, tell Carrie how much you love Scandal every episode.
I've seen as many episodes of Scandal as you have seen of Arrested Development, Sean. Ooh! I have watched Ozark.
Now, well, thank you. Now, what do you guys do about that? Because we all know a lot of people and are friends with a lot of people that do a lot of stuff.
And you can't possibly see it all. You can't watch it all.
Yeah. Do you feel bad about that? Do you lie about it? Do you make an effort? I'm just, I'm terrible about it.
Well, I've just admitted that I lie sometimes. But I try not to.
Yeah, I mean, Carrie lies. I don't think you need to really lie.
And now all her friends, it's out there, they know that she just lies and that's fine. What I do is, you know, what's hard is, Sean, you know this one is like when you go, when somebody says, I'm doing, you know, I'm in a show on Broadway or I'm doing a play or whatever, I'm always reluctant to go because you have to go and say hi to the master.
Well, now, Kerry, talk about that. I've changed Will since we talked about that.
Like, I know somebody, I won't say her name, very extremely, gigantically, globally famous who came to one of my shows, and she didn't come back. And I was like, I get it.
We don't really know each other. Why would she come back? It makes me spiral.
When somebody doesn't come back, and maybe that just means I'm an insecure person, it freaks me out. No, but how do you know that they're there? Because that's the part that is...
They tell you. The house manager tells you.
So Tracy, when you're doing a show in New York, I think specifically in New York, or is it in Chicago too? Shawnee? Anywhere. You end up finding out if there's anybody who has a SAG card that's sitting in the audience.
And whether you've invited them or not. SAG card, Tracy's sidebar.
Tracy, that's the Screen Actress Guild card. Double Tracy's sidebar.
So if they don't come back, like you have to go back and say that you love the show. Even if you don't know the people in the cast.
I just found that ritual to be weird. Well, that's what I mean.
So I don't want to lie. So I just, I'm like, I just end up not going to stuff.
Because you don't want to go and not like what you see and then have to lie about it. Oh, aren't you a person of integrity? No, I'm not.
But can't you go to a show? I just don't want to get busted for lying. Can't you go to a show without anybody knowing that you're there? I mean, like, who's clocking the audience? Yeah, which is why I go into my character room.
It depends on the show and the audience. Like, for me, I could never in my life go to a show that has a black cast and not go backstage because they will know that I'm there.
But wait a minute. You're saying if you were in a show and somebody in the audience has a sad card and doesn't come back, you take that personally? Yeah.
There's an actor who I knew had come to see a play I was in called American Son, and he did not come backstage. And unbeknownst to him, I held it against him for like a year and a half.
I was like, I just thought, how? Like, why? It was, you know, why? Why? Did you ever run into that actor and ask him? Well, I then found out, because I'm friends with his wife, that she was the only one who had come and that she was running straight to the airport afterward, and that's why she texted me, and so I was like, oh my God, I've been like, inside my heart, snubbing him at parties. Yeah, he's been dead to me for a year and a half for no reason.
You know what I'm going to start doing? I'm going to start going and taking in a lot of theater and making a point of not going backstage. But hanging around outside a lot for a while.
Like a long time. And then leaving.
And then going like, not only did he not come back, but he fucking, he didn't even run off. He was here.
He was here for a while, milling around. What I learned in that is that I have to be more generous, right? And I try to be more generous in my attitude toward people, but that was a really good reminder of like, you don't know what's going on in people's lives.
Like even if somebody really snubs you to your face, you don't know if they just had a car accident. Like it just was a reminder, like be generous, Carrie.
The world just does not revolve around you and your Broadway performance. You seem constantly happy, sunny.
You don't seem like a dark person. What would get the real ire up in you? When are you the nastiest? Finally, we're going to meet the real Carrie Washington.
Is it traffic? Is it people that cut you off in traffic? No, no. I'm not a traffic, because I'm not a very good driver, so I have to be generous when I'm driving.
What really pisses you off? You know what? Dishonesty. To circle back, if I feel like I'm being gaslit or people are keeping information from me in that way.
You know how like people really like to infantilize actors? Like they don't want to talk to the talent. They don't want to tell talent things or like just in my life, throughout my life, whether it's because of my acting or whatever.
If I feel like people aren't being honest with me, it really upsets me. This is what makes you a good producer, right? Yeah, maybe.
Somebody who's like holding the information and then sort of disseminates it throughout the production you understand what a value that is and how bad it is when you're on the other side of that not getting it Carrie, by the way I can relate to that I'm like tell it to me straight yeah just let me know tell it to me fucking straight and let me I'll decide how I react right by the way honestly Will if you come to see me in something, like let's say accidentally you stumble upon a play that I'm in on Broadway. You don't know I'm in it.
Yeah, sure. If you came backstage and you said, I'm not crazy about this one, it would make me feel closer to you than you leaving.
And I appreciate the transparency. I'm making this pledge to you today.
You're going to tell me when I suck. I will always be honest with you.
I will always be straight up with you about what I think about where you're at. And I want you to know it.
And forget it. Thank you.
In performance, on stage, and in your life. Oh, my God.
This is amazing. Carrie, the worst thing, wait, really quick, the worst thing anybody could ever say when they come backstage, boy, it looks like you're having a lot of fun up there.
That's the kiss of death. That is the worst.
Or the, like, you guys did that. That was, you did, wow, you did that.
You do this how many times a week? Yes. Well, that's the thing, too, is it's so, you're so vulnerable.
When you're on stage, you're so, there's no edit room. There's no score to hide the moment that wasn't fully honest.
Like, you're just so vulnerable up there. So I think that's probably why it was also, like, a little more raw than usual.
Yes, yes. Now, in the world of not being told everything that maybe they should be told, in the world of series television, Tracy, oftentimes actors will not be told how that particular season is going to end.
Now, you're a producer on that show, so you probably have more access to storylines. But have you had that instance with the head writer about, you know, let me know what my finish line is as an actor so I can calibrate what the arc is to get there instead of waiting to read each episode, you know, piecemeal.
Yeah, I was not a producer in the beginning of Scandal. I became a producer later on in the life of the show.
And director. Yes, and director.
But my favorite example of not knowing was we had a guest star named Joe Morton. And Joe Morton is an actor I'm a huge fan of.
He did an incredible John Sayles film called Brother from Another Planet. Oh, I love Joe Morton.
He's so good. So he's stellar.
And he came on, he was like the one guest star that came on our show that I called home to mom and dad and was like, oh, my God, Joe Morton's on the show. And he was, I was never in scenes with him.
He was always in scenes with these other characters on the show. And every table read, I'd be like, God, I really hope that we can do a scene together.
And he'd be like, me too, me too. And I knew that he had been in talks to do Romeo and Juliet on Broadway.
And he had dropped out of that to come do Scandal. And I was like, he doesn't even get any scenes with number one.
Like, why did he drop out of this play on Broadway? He's got no scenes with me. Like, why did he do that? And I just was super like, what's going on? At the end of the scene, the very final line of that season was I get in a car, Joe Morton is sitting across from me, and he says hi, and I say, with a question mark at the end, Dad? Because he was my father on the show.
And he knew from the beginning, from his first phone call with Shonda Rhimes, he knew that he was going to be my dad. And I didn't know.
I didn't know until our table read of that episode. So that was on purpose then.
It was incredible. Yeah, so wonderful.
It would have been cool if they pulled a Star Wars and didn't tell you until you were actually filming the scene. Right? That would have been amazing.
Is that how it happened in the scene? Is that what they did in Star Wars? Yeah, Empire Strikes Back. Back Well, you mean in the movie but not on set, right? No, on the set Darth Vader just blurbed something else and then in post they put you are Luke, I am your father No So that the crew didn't know nobody knew until the movie came out Right Right.
Mark Hamill knew? I think Mark Hamill knew, yeah.

Wow.

Isn't that wild?

They were trying to protect

the crew from leaking that

to the fan base.

Yeah.

I think that's what I'm saying.

I don't know.

Hey, Sean,

any more great tidbits

from fucking

the winner's circle?

From 70 years ago?

Also,

what are you doing?

What about Chris Pine's

audition process for Star Trek? Let's bring Scotty in to give us some light on that. Do you know that the bridge on the Enterprise actually wasn't a bridge at all? Jerry, was Scandal the first thing that kind of changed your trajectory, or was it something else that made people really take notice, or do you think that that's the the thing that really launched you that was the thing i mean i had a really great film career before that because i had been in like these oscar nominated films like i if i had a joke that if you hired me to play your wife you would win an oscar because i was with jamie fox and ray and i was in last king of scotland with forrest whitaker and um so i i had done, but nobody connected that the girl from Save the Last Dance was the girl from Ray, was the girl, like I was kind of a character actor and sort of disappearing into these really fun, very different films with accents from all over the world.
But TV is just different, especially before streaming, right? Like TV was a different beast where all of a sudden I was in people's living rooms every single week. Like how many people do you have in your life that you actually spend an hour with every week other than your shrink? Not a lot.
So it's a very intimate relationship. Oh, she's talking to you, Sean.
I'm talking to myself and myself. So it did, it did, it definitely changed my, like it changed, you know, sort of the level of how I walked in the world, maybe, or like level of fame or whatever.
Yeah. And were you scared to step in a role of leadership like that? Or was it finally like, was it like finally, oh my God, this is like what I've been waiting for to be like the number one on the call sheet kind of thing? No, I really, there was all this pressure because at the time there was all this talk.

Every interview was about the fact that in almost 40 years, there had not been a black woman as the lead of a network drama. Every article in the beginning.
And I was like 37 or something at the time. So in my lifetime, I had never seen a black woman as the lead of a network drama.
And so that's, all my pressure was my fear of like,

if I screw this up,

they're not going to let another woman of color be the lead of a network drama for another 40 years. Like I knew that we had to get it right and I just had to work as hard as I'd ever worked on anything in my life.
But luckily I've worked with amazing number ones. Like Jamie Foxx is the best number one in the business.
No offense to you other number ones on here, but he's just the king. No one's better than Jamie Foxx.
Django, Ray, like, having worked with him in those, he's just a fun, he's so generous. He's a team leader.
He's a coach. He's a cheerleader.
He's everybody's dad. And so you picked up stuff from him and, like, how do you get it? Yeah, I tried to collect, like, Forrest Whitaker's a beautiful number one.
Julia Stiles was an incredible number one.

Like I just tried to remember the things

that I admired about the leaders.

Love Julia. The good leaders.
Yeah.

She's so great. Oh my god,

Django Unchained is one of my favorite movies of all time.

You were unbelievable in that.

And I've seen it so many times.

It's always, Quentin Tarantino

is great at the

theme of revenge, right?

Yes. And that theme,

whenever I watch that movie, it's disturbing Thank you. Quentin Tarantino is great at the theme of revenge, right?

Yes.

Whenever I watch that movie, it's disturbing to see you, that character.

It's so disturbing.

Any kind of fun Quentin stories?

I mean, I love that he inserted himself in there in that one scene.

It was so fantastic.

Wait, which one?

I forget.

Django and Django.

I got a call.

I was asleep in my apartment in New Orleans.

We were like halfway through filming,

and I got a call at like 2 or 3 in the morning,

and I pick up the phone.

It's like, I was like, hello? And I hear Leo DiCaprio and Jamie Foxx being like, yo, we need to talk. And I was like, what's happening? And they were like, Quinn wants to be in the movie.
I was like, what? So that like unfolded in the middle of shooting.

We were all shocked.

But it was great. He was amazing.
So Jay, just to remind you, in the movie, he

intercepts like the transfer

of the

of the

collected slaves, right?

And frees them or something.

I can't remember. I'm so bad

about remembering movies. I swear to God, I could

see a movie last week and forget the entire

thing. Same.
Same. Even.
I can't remember. I'm so bad about remembering movies.
I swear to God. Oh, me too.
I don't remember anything. I could see a movie last week and forget the entire thing.
Same. Even movies I've been in.
I don't remember movies I've been in. I don't remember.
Is it because, I like to think it's for a positive reason. That like maybe we're so good about getting completely inside that world that once you leave that world, it stays over there.
I don't know. That's a glass half full.
Yeah, it's kind of like in Memento, like how he forgets the neck, you know what I mean? Do you have an easy time memorizing lines though? Yeah. Jason does.
Jason's unbelievable. And do they stay with you or do you forget them? No, I can drop them just as easily as I learn them.
But it seems like all my memory skills have just been channeled into that one very narrow lane. It's not great.
Yeah. And now, a word from our sponsor.
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And now, back to the show. Kara, if I asked you this question and you had to think of something really, really fast, who's one or two of your favorite actors of all time that you worked with? Meryl Streep.
Controversial. Yeah.
Well, I'm being honest. Not a lot of people agree with you on that whole talent assessment thing.
What TikToks has she been on? And I mean, it's hard. There's so many.
I love that that was the first one. And Jamie.
I love Jamie. Yeah.
Yeah. I just love him.
What was your first paid acting gig? My first paid acting gig, I played a cheerleader. I don't think I had a name.
I think I was like cheerleader number two in an ABC after school special called My Special Angel. Oh, wow.
I think. Who was the angel? I don't know.
I don't remember. I may have done a PSA or something before that.
God, after school specials. Remember those? After school specials.
Jason, did you ever do one, an after school special? I don't know if I did an after school special. I did a few movies of the week.
Those were good. Remember there used to be a movie? CBS, NBC, ABC.
They all used to make their own movies, and they'd run Sunday night. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Now it's like Hallmark Channel does those in Lifetime. That's right.
Wait, so Carrie, the other thing that I went on and on about before, but I'm going to do it again because you're so amazing, was American Sun on Broadway, which I didn't get to see because I was doing something. Yes.
But I elated to see it on Netflix. So first of all, it was such an ingenious idea to film the play like that.
It was like a hybrid of stage and film. I'd never seen anything like it.
Your performance was off the charts. Like it was amazing.
Wait, you're allowed to do that? You can film a play on Broadway? No, it was. No.
So really the reason I came up with that idea was because I love producing. I've never seen anything like it.
I love producing. I fell in love with producing at Scandal.
And the first film I produced was a film called Confirmation for HBO, where I played Anita Hill. And then I fell in love with it.
And so they came to me to do this play on Broadway, the producers. And I said, sure, I'll be in it if I can help produce.
But on Broadway, producing really just means finding money. You get to be a creative producer as well.
But I was like, oh, I don't do the financing thing. I haven't done that.
But I was like, okay, I'll jump in and I'll try.

And one of the ideas I had for how I could make the money to help produce the play

was like, what if we film it? What if we can sell it to

a streamer? Sell the rights.

Such a great idea. Netflix, you know, Ted

read it and loved it.

But Jay, it was filmed not in a proscenium.

It was filmed. No, we built

on stages. We built on stages.

We kind of like built a fourth wall to complete the room because the play all takes place in one room. And so we just completed the room and shot it on a stage in the one room.
Your performance was just mind-blowing. It means so much coming from you.
Thank you. It was.
Not that much, but I really want to see it. I really, really want.
By the way. It's on Netflix.
I'm going to watch it. Do you have an account? Well, I share it with like 20 people, but I'm going to watch it, and then I'm going to get your number from Sean.
Okay, good. And I'm going to text Aaron from Kimmel what I thought about it.
I was going to say, you might be texting Aaron. And I'm going to be honest.
Now, Carrie, where are you right now? Are you home or are you traveling? Are you on location somewhere? I'm not home. I'm on location because we're doing a new YouTube series at my company.
Really? Oh. Called The Street You Grew Up On.
And it's something I started in pandemic because my production company is named after the street that my mother grew up on in the Bronx, Simpson Street.

And when we were kids, we used to hear all these stories about like all the shenanigans that went on in Simpson Street. So I feel like that's my once upon a time.
Like my grandparents came to the States through Ellis Island. They immigrated from the Caribbean and they lived in the Bronx.
And Simpson Street was like, you know, where it all started, where the dreams began. So I interview people that I really like and respect and admire, other than the three of you, and about the street that they grew up on.
How do you have room after the three of us? So, yeah, and I ask them questions about the street they grew up on and what their childhoods were like. Great idea.
That's really cool. It's fun.
So we're doing a bunch of them today. You know what I always wanted to do, but you can, by the way, you can have this idea if you want.
Eat an entire carton of ice cream by yourself and then do it again right after? Yeah. And? Yes, and? It's like similar to that idea, which is go visit with a celebrity the places they lived before they made it, right? So like go back to their apartment and knock on the door and interview the family that live there, that lives there now and kind of swap stories about how you lived when you were there.
I think that'd be really cool. All the apartments and whatever.
I have a dream about maybe next season going to some of the locations with our guests. Do it, do it.
The stories are incredible. But think about the stories you'd get from the people that live there.
Yeah, the people that live there now. Sean, you're like our next Barbara Walters.
This is incredible. Wait, so the first question that I ask everybody is to learn the name of the street that they grew up on.
I ask their porn names. So I want to know the name of your first pet and the street you grew up on.
So I want to ask you three your porn names. Not your actual porn names that you have used in the past because I know you have those.
So it's the pet's first name and the street you lived on. Your first pet.
First pet for me was a little bird that was a cinnamon color. And so he was called Cinny or she was.
Cinny. So, and then the first street was Emerson.
Cinny Emerson. There you go.
I like that. That's kind of cute.
Sweet little Cinny Emerson. Sweet little Cinny.
That's my middle name. Emerson's my middle name.
Cinny Emerson receives a lot in these horns. Not a lot of giving.
Mostly catching. She's good at it.
Yep. Catch his bird passive Will what about you we had a cat well you don't have to explain the story just what's the name of the first pattern he got to talk about the stupid fucking bird fucking scene and receiving and catching up that's like my kids he got to do it.
It would be Minu Edgar. Minu Edgar.
Now, Minu Edgar is giving a lot of pain on his horns. Cindy sees Minu coming and just starts running.
Johnny, what about you? Mine's Josh Valley. Josh Valley.
What kind of animal's name, Josh? Your pet's name was Josh? My dog's name was Josh, and I lived on Valley Avenue. Your dog's name was Josh? Why did you name your dog Josh? I didn't name it.
I think my dad did. Oh.
Oh, this guy. Now, Carrie, what was yours? Mine.
The best was that I interviewed my mom for the series, and I was like, you didn't have any pets, Mom, did you? And she said, no, no, we did. We did.

We had a cat named Big Boy.

So my mom's, my mother's poor name is Big Boy Simpson.

It's just the best.

That's fantastic.

I had hamsters.

Yeah, yeah.

I had hamsters named Trick and Treat and I grew up on Pugsley Avenue. So Trick and Treat Pugsley.
Also very active. Trick and Treat Pugs.
Yeah. Wow.
That's so cool. I love that.
And that's how you launch into this. That's how we start each episode.
That's great. I love that.
So in a perfect balance, then how often are you working? How often are you home? Like how often do you like to be bored throughout the year? Because I think boredom is the route to relaxation. If you can try to find.
I think you're right. So I'm not very relaxed these days because I haven't been very bored.
This is the main theme of my therapy these days is figuring out how to schedule more like open creative time. Because I am a doer.
Like I really like to be busy and I like to accomplish things and feel like I'm being productive and useful in the world. But I also really, really love my family and spending time with them and being able to read a book on the beach.
I'm with the reading the book on the beach team. I can't do it.
Thank you. I do.
I'm with that. That's the worst.
Or even listen to an audio book. Sean, what if you were in like in a nice cabana, right? So we've got nice breathable fabric around three sides of you.
We've got a nice roof over the top. We've got some sort of a frosty drink.
You're in Bermuda shorts and a Hawaiian shirt. I'm going to be thinking, I know what you're asking.
Could I read a book then? Yeah, and you got a nice fan on you.

Maybe there's even a portable TV.

With the fan that has the mist.

Oh, believe me,

Sean's never met a fan he didn't like, okay?

Hey!

Cut him!

Sean, that would work, right?

Well, I'm going to ask you the same question.

You know that.

But it probably wouldn't

because I'd be distracted by the beauty and the breeze.

I'd want to go do something, not sit.

You can't sit still.

But here's the other thing.

But it's not the whole day.

It's just like a section of the day

Thank you. by the beauty and the breeze.
I'd want to go do something, not sit. You can't sit still.
But it's not the whole day. It's just a section of the day where you get to disappear.
Carrie, what you need to understand is Sean can't sit still and not fidget and do that and read a book. Anywhere.
However, I have been with him on a return 14 hours each way flight to L.A. to Istanbul where he played Candy Crush the entire fucking time.
I'm addicted to games. By the way, calling that a game is like fucking, you know, like calling a pamphlet a book.
It's just like... Why don't you just rip the door open and jump out somewhere over the Atlantic and just like how could I still be engaged with this eight hours in? I'll never forget that flight, too, because they fed us 80,000 pounds of food.

Like, just did not stop serving food.

Were you guys sitting up front?

I remember eating.

Sorry.

I remember sleeping for like six hours at one point and then waking up and being like, oh, man, I really.

And looking in Sean,

Scotty, same position.

Is that your meditation?

It is.

I get to check out and like,

I love that.

Yeah, that's what I'm addicted to

is like the solace of that.

Well, they work hard on that.

They work hard on those games

to control your brain. I know.
By the way, they can have it, right? Oh my God, don't worry. Turns out they claimed there wasn't much to grab.
They took what they could. They really candy-crushed my brain.
All right, so listen, we're going to let you go soon, I promise, but I want you to talk about the Prophecy Podcast. What is it? Because it sounds amazing.
You're starring in it, your EP on it, and it stars Lawrence Fishburne, Daniel Dae Kim, and David Oyelowo. Oh, yeah.
I want to, yes. So I also, I want to thank so many of, a lot of the folks that I work with wanted me to do this podcast, even more than I want.
I mean, I really, I'm such an Uber fan, but there's a guy on my team named Will who was like, we have a podcast coming on Prophecy. So you, yeah, it's a bad name.
He sounds cool. He sounds brilliant.
Will was like, because we're doing a podcast, we have to be on the best podcast. So that is part of why I'm so happy to be talking to you guys.
So Prophecy is, it's a narrative podcast on Audible. It's a really cool concept.
The concept is like, what if the Bible wasn't a document about things that people thought happened in the past? But what if it was a prophetic document about things that were going to happen in the future? And so I play this woman, this scientist, who winds up being pregnant. And I don't know how because my husband can't impregnate me.
We know that. And my name is Virginia Maryland.
So like Virgin Mary. And there's a scientist named Jonah who gets in a situation with a whale and stays alive for three days.
And there's a guy named Daniel who's a zoologist who ends up in a lion's den and they don't kill him. And it's kind of like these biblical happenings are popping up.
And what does it mean? And how do we deal with it? It's very cool great idea like sci-fi and has that yet been optioned we well a part of why i wanted to i'm in this deal with audible to create podcasts in the narrative space and i feel like it's a really good way to test out story and figure out is this uh limited is it a film i think this one is a great show are you kidding yeah that's cool and is the idea then to like maybe if it goes well, make it an actual series? Yeah, yeah, or a film. I think this one is a film.
Sounds like a great show. Are you kidding? That's cool.
And is the idea then to like maybe if it goes well make it an actual series? Yeah. Yeah, or a film.
I think it might be a trilogy of films. That's really cool.
I'm not sure. I would watch that.
Yeah, I would watch it. I would do.
Let me look at my schedule. What do you, how long is the shoot? Start, start, oh, do you want to be in it? Yeah, how do you feel about self-taping, Will? I want to be fucking number one.
Carrie, you were talking about number ones. And I'm like, what is she working towards here? What is she trying? And I'm like, oh, here it comes.
Here comes the pitch. So the number one, blah, blah, blah.
Then she pitches this show and it could be a movie actually and then she looks right at me and I'm like, here we go. All right.
So tell me, I'll tell you what, you know I'm at CAA, launch some numbers our way and fucking let me look at the sketch. Give us something to react to.
We'll fit it around your golf. We'll shoot around your golf.
Yeah, that's true. That's a good point.
Kerry Washington, you know how much I love you. You got the email.
I love you so much. I think you are incredible.
I'm a massive, massive fan as you are. Can I just say, I want to say, as somebody who, like, this is what we do all the time.
We have to talk to people. We do these interviews.
It's so real. I can tell every time I listen that people are, they don't want to get off with you.
They're like, they love these interviews. It's a good time.
People have not wanted to get off with Jason for a long time. Oh, no.
She did it. That was perfect.
She self-vied. She self-vied.
So good. No one has ever self-vied before.
That was great. Kerry Washington, D.C.
Kerry Washington. Oh, she had the full district in Columbia.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's Kerry Washington District of Columbia.
Not a lot of people know that. So, she's a dream.
Kerry Washington would actually be the great name for a,

like, just like a detective series, too.

Kerry Washington, like that's the name.

That's the name of her character.

Well, no, no, no, no.

But you'd spell it C-A-R-R-Y because trying to, like, keep watching.

Like she's carrying Watt.

Yeah, trying to keep her pulling shoulders.

Yeah, she's got to carry Watt.

Oh, my gosh.

By the way, let's pitch her.

Get her back on. Can you call her

back? Yeah, we'll call. Well, Sean

doesn't have her number, but

Email her, Sean. Isn't that the dumbest

story? Sean, that story is so

fucking, it's so good. I mean, it's

so embarrassing. It's so on brand for

you. By the way, you just made the leap.

I love that Aaron was on the other end of that.

Yeah, that Aaron, Aaron's the other person.

And obviously, Aaron knows the story. I think I told her, yeah.
Yeah, Aaron Irwin, who's the best. Who's so good, the best.
Wait a minute. What about how great she is? And she's so delightful and so smart and so gorgeous and so talented and so real and normal.
Yeah. I know I say that about every guest of ours.
But like, I can't stop. That's the thing when you're surprised to me because we know there's a lot of people in this business and and and washington a lot of other businesses whatever that you never get like the real them and that's the real her yeah you know i sat with so at that dinner we talked about that cast dinner uh jay when you're like what dinner did you have? You literally sat across from Carrie.

That came back to me eventually.

We were at Jimmy's.

So we were at Kimmel's, and I didn't know her at all,

but she was producing that thing that we've all done.

And I had the same reaction.

I was like, man, she is so cool and comfortable with who she is

and in her own skin and so real,

and you just had the sense that you were getting this genuine person.

And she was a delight.

We laughed a ton.

She was great.

Yeah, she's except she lied about watching them listen she's a dirty liar she admitted it you know she's a dirty liar she should maybe she should do an arc she's also like liars all right she's also really funny like she should do more comedy she's so funny why are we so surprised every time we meet somebody nice and normal in this business? Yeah, because we know too many of the others.

But maybe, maybe that's just a vestige of what this business was.

Well, it's not just the business.

It's just in life.

And now we ought to just embrace the fact that there are actually a lot of really nice, normal people in this business now.

Yeah.

I don't know if it's a thing.

It's not necessarily a result of it.

I never mean the business.

I just mean the life.

But maybe it is. There are bad people because maybe it's just a buy product.
Buy product. I didn't even see it coming, Will.
I didn't even seeTerry, and Rob Armjarf. Smart Less.
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