“Phil Lord & Christopher Miller”

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No, I'm up. I'm up.
I'm up. Are we starting? What is this?

Is anybody here?

Hello?

Oh, guys, nobody's here.

This is weird. Finally.

Just a moment of silence before we start the show.

Oh, welcome to SmartLess. SmartLess.
SmartLess. SmartLess.
Sean, congratulations on a very successful run of your show. You guys have wrapped now.
And do we know yet if we are traveling with this huge success? Yes, we are traveling to the Broadway. By the way, I didn't even tell you guys.
There was a reviewer like three weeks ago that said, I'm not even making this up, he said, you know, he raved about the show

and it was a really good review.

Of course he did.

Although, before they go to Broadway,

they need to remove Sean's plastic wig and his fat suit,

neither of which are true.

No.

No, no, no, no.

Swear to God, I'll send it to you.

You're so sad, Sean.

And I was like, wait, that's my real hair,

and I'm actually really fat in life.

No, you are not. No, first of all, no, you're not.
No, no, no. Well, you know my stomach.
Plus, I'm wearing those old 50s clothes. So my stomach sticks out.
Oh, well, wait a second. Hang on.
Isn't that hilarious? When you read that, what did you, what happened? Wait, you're not wearing a fat suit? Sean, honestly, how did you feel? There it is. There it is.
There's the cookie bag. What? The cookie bag.
what um how did you feel? There it is. There's the cookie bag.
What... The cookie bag.

What...

How did you feel after you read that?

Yeah, that's hurtful.

I laughed.

What do I care?

I mean, yeah.

I've laughed too about reading some bad things about me,

but it does leave you a little winded.

I was fine with that.

I really, honestly, truly laughed.

I think that's really funny that he thought I was wearing a fat suit and a plastic wig. Because my hair is shellacked, you know.
Well, I can't wait to see it in New York. Will, I know you'll be there with me.
I'm going to be there. 100%.
In fact, I... Hang on, Will.
Sean, is that a glass of milk that you're sipping? It really is. Listener, Sean's sipping a squat glass of milk.
I don't think I've ever seen anyone literally drink a glass of milk. Just on its own.
Yeah. There's no peanut butter sandwich.
Didn't that stop with the little newspaper boys on the corner selling papers for five cents?

Isn't that the last time?

Last time I saw a glass of milk being...

Say, mister.

Say, mister.

Over here.

Say, mister.

Gee, it's neat to be

a newsboy.

Hey, we know about it.

It's a glass of milk.

It's ice cold.

It tastes so good.

Ice cold glass of milk, huh?

Just something for the

cookie pouch down there, huh?

You know what I love? He's setting... It's got to go with the cookie pouch down there you know what i love he's setting he's gotta go with the cook what do you call it the cookie what cookie bag cookie pouch he's just setting a nice base for something for the cookies to plop into you know what i mean yeah a warm pool i love about you sean god you're so simple yeah it's unbelievable Your guest must be furious at you by now, Will.
My guest, you know what? My guests are going to be furious. Double booking.
If they were shitty people, if they were shitty, that was what I guessed for yours. Hall and Oates.
We're going to keep guessing Hall and Oates until they come on the goddamn show. And, you know, but you know what? These guys make music of a different kind.
Oh. They make music with their art of a different kind.
More of a visual art. These fellas, they like to take ideas.
Well, they like to write ideas. And then they like to put them up on the big screen.
That's right. These guys, and they like to do it Lord and Miller.
They like to do it in every single discipline. They've directed lots of movies, lots of movies that I've done including Lego movie and Lego Batman.
I can't go any longer because you guessed it. It's Lord and Chris Miller.
Oh my God. Look at them.
I couldn't even get into the preamble.

Well, who else is there?

There's only two that know how to write it and put it up on the screen in its glorious form.

And us.

How do you guys respond to that you're the Hall and Oates of film?

I take that as a huge compliment.

I got so excited for two seconds when I thought I was Hall and Oates. Wait, which one would you be? Yeah, which one would you be? Ooh.
I'm going to go with Daryl Hall. Daryl Hall and John Oates.
Daryl is the hutch, not the Starsky? Which one's Starsky? Daryl has the blonde hair and Oates has the mustache. Okay, so John Starsky.

Who's who, then?

Yeah, it would be tough.

I mean, you guys are both dark hair.

Neither one.

I guess I can grow a mustache easier, so I guess.

But you have the curly hair, so that's the most.

It's a real dogfight.

Yeah.

Let's take more time with this.

Yeah.

Let's not rush into the answer.

Hey, by the way, Jason, why don't you save that for your podcast,

Grinding to a Halt, which starts next week on Wondery. It drops next week.
What a classic bird. Gentlemen, welcome.
Yeah. Welcome to the show.
I don't know how you find the time to spend a silly 60 minutes with us. Yeah, why are you guys, where are you right now? We are in our office.
That is, we finished the week of March 2020 and never actually worked out of. And it's our first day here in the office.
Is that a true story? Yeah. True story.
It's been awesome to pay the lease on this for the last two years. How weird.
Now, for the last two years, you guys have been doing what you do remotely, or are you guys going over to each other's houses? We did, like, partially remotely. The things we've been working on recently are the sequel to Spider-Verse, which we've been going in on a couple days a week, and then we've been making this show, The After Party, for Apple TV+.
And we shot that for real in person with real human beings. Now, do you guys prefer to be on the set and directing stuff and mixing with folks? Or do you prefer that more typical sort of life of a writer where it's just the two of you at a shared desk, looking at each other, pitching ideas, typing? That's right.
Arm and arm. One arm over Chris.
I do the left side of the keyboard. He does the right side of the keyboard.

Oh, my God.

You guys, no, no.

That made me think,

don't you hate it when you go to a restaurant

and you see that loving couple

and they're on the same fucking side of the booth

and they're not sitting face to face.

They decide to sit hip to hip on the same side

looking out at the restaurant,

letting everyone see how fucking in love they are.

Hey, Jason, you know what? Do you know how much Amanda would give for you to sit next to her at a restaurant forget it it's not happening i'll read you the text you know i didn't even dance with her at our wedding you know excellent is that true that's how allergic i am to dancing i'm i'm a serious non-dancer well then all i want to ever see you do is dance now no i'll have to start drinking again for that allergic no. You're not allergic to, no, it's just, that's ego, man.
I mean, if we're going to, if we're going to strip it away, that's just all ego. And Phil and Chris want to talk, we all want to talk to you about it.
This is an overarching more than anything. What's happening? I think, Phil, did I meet you once before at a, no, no.
At like Michelli's or something. No, no, at, no, no, it was Marino's.
At Marino's. Yeah.
That's right, which is right near our Lego offices. That was like our special treat.
They would let us out and let us walk three blocks in the open air. Yeah, it was so nice to come up and say hi.
What happens at Marino's? Caesar salad. It's still there.
Marino's is great on Melrose. It's great, yeah.
On Melrose, yeah. It's super old school, very fun, like kind of like Red Booth Italian restaurant.
Oh, and they mix a Caesar in front of you? One of those guys? They mix a Caesar in front of you in Mexican dish. They really do.
And then the guy will come out every once in a while and go like, hey, listen, it's not a Mexican dish. No, but he'll come out and he'll go, he'll go, the guy will come out and he'll go, listen, it's not on the menu, but I'm going to let you know we've got a nice fresh brajol that we just made a beautiful brajol.
For real. Right, Sean? And they'll bring it to you.
I was there with Jimmy Valleley years ago, and the guy's like, we've got this fresh braille. Don't tell anybody.
Like it's a state fucking secret. That's so true.
Braille. I'm going to hit socials on this one.
Now, wait. Phil and Chris, so, you know, Jason, he mentioned, so would you rather be in a room or, you know, arms linked on a keyboard.
Talk to us about how this is how you guys started. I mean, that's what you guys, you still do, but that's how you guys started writing together.
What was, how did that happen? Where did you meet? Yeah. How did you guys start writing together? We met in college or freshman week.
Somebody said, oh, I know someone just as weird as you. What school? At Dartmouth College in Hanover, New Hampshire.

Beautiful, beautiful time.

Phil convinced me to take an animation class,

and we started making student films

and somehow got our way making Saturday morning cartoons

back when that was a thing that still existed.

Sounds like you guys were crushing a lot of ass in college.

Oh, my God.

Let me tell you. Talk us through lot of ass in college Oh my god Let me tell ya

Talk us through some of that

Oh man

I tell ya, the ladies love

A couple of cartoonists

Doodling away in a studio

Oh, I so wish I could do that

Hey, you guys almost done with that pen?

Just the wrist control Now, you guys didn't Did you go almost done with that pen? Just the wrist control.

Yeah.

Now, you guys didn't, did you go to school for that?

No.

Did you guys have a plan?

I was a government major.

So, I mean, it was sort of a thing we were doing on the side is making films and stuff.

What's the difference between a government major and a political science major?

It's the same thing.

That's what they called it there because they have to be weird.

Oh. Right.
Just to be different. Are you still really into politics? Not that we're going to get into politics.
I am. I am still into politics.
It's very infuriating. And do you, do you enjoy sort of like trying to Trojan horse in some political sort of messages maybe in some of your stuff? Don't answer that.
Don't answer that. Protect your business.
Protect your business. Blink.
Just blink. I think everything is political in the world.
That's right. That's right.
What an outrageous statement. I tell you what.
So how did you guys, how did you, when you guys first started like making shows and stuff, how did you know you clicked? Just the same sense of humor and the same sense of kind of, like what was the, were you like, what's the thing where you're like, oh God god this guy's funny or cool when we were in college when we met each other we were like we felt like kindred spirits we both loved you know harold and maude and steve martin movies and all this other stuff and we all said like the same and and there was no fox affiliate in hanover so chris's sister would mail vhs tapes of the simpsons i worked with Chris's sister. That's right, you did.
Oh, really? She's so sweet. Please tell her hi.
Time out? Time out what? Yeah, yeah. She worked with us at Aggregate back in the Universal days.
It's true. Oh, I thought you were going to say she worked on that Ice Capade special you did with Alyssa Milano that Kimmel sent us the other day.
She read for it. She got pretty close.
We had her back a few times. Don't worry.
Don't worry. I'll send it to all you guys.
Kimmel sent it to us the other day. Son of a bitch.
I had a real heavy sweater on. Now, how do you – now, listen.
You guys are jokingly saying that you were weird in college, and I was pretty weird at that age as well, as I think we all were. Anybody was.
we all go through our awkward periods and we all think we're kind of funny and we've got like this odd sense of humor, but there's a big, big spread between that and actually being able to like make it and use that in a way that actually brings success and, and, and futures. And how, how did you guys get from being, you know, kind of awkward, funny, smart guys at Dartmouth to being up there on top of the mountain? I mean, I'm sure it's a long answer, not longer than the question, but let's hear it.
What a fucking journey. I just had to go put my winter clothing in the basement.
I went to Vegas in one of few slots and came back. You assholes.
Guys? Well, go ahead. Irrational confidence? Yeah, I think that was, yeah, we were in San Francisco.
I was doing an internship at ILM, and Phil came to visit me, and we took a hike to Coit Tower and looked out over San Francisco,

famous for beautiful movie making,

or maybe it was the wrong city, but it was the right state.

And we were like, let's go try to make it in Hollywood.

And we decided then there.

You had an actual moment.

First of all, Sean, tell Tracy what ILM is. Oh, yes.
It's the Industrial Light Magic, which is George Lucas' company, was George Lucas' company, and they do all the special effects for all the movies of all time. Right.
So you guys are up there, and you're like, you have this moment, you're inspired, and you guys are looking out, and the sun is... Yes.
We had like a movie moment. It was very romantic.
But at that point, you guys had been working on, you'd made some cartoons. Yeah, I want to know that.
What were those first cartoons? We made, in my dorm room, we made two short films that we hand animated. One was like a self-portrait that I did called Self Mambo, which is fine.
And then Chris's was called Sleazy Goes to Hell. Yes, and then I had a character named Sleazy the Wonder Squirrel who was in the comic strip I did for the Daily Paper.
It was, you know, this really sophisticated humor. We were the only people in the class who liked jokes.
So these are sketch, now is it like a flip book? Is that how you kind of like did the film? Yeah, you shoot it on, we shot it on a 16mm camera frame by frame and then... Wow.
It was the olden days. It was a bolex that was just pointed at the floor with like duct tape on the legs and like, you know, the thing would jam.
And you do like one little sketch that moves the hand a little bit more. Exactly.
And then another piece of paper. Very tedious.
And thankfully never have to do that again. But yeah, but here's the thing.
So you guys do that. You quite literally start in sort of the most basic form of animation.
You guys are just doing it by, literally by the numbers. Really earning it.
Earning it all the way through. Then you guys go and you do a bunch of series, and you do Clone High.
You do all these great things. And then you do Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, which we'll get to in a second.
Right. And just since you're doing that well for Tracy, it's Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs, the Lego movie, 22 Jump Street, right? Yeah.
So what I was going to get to is was and kind of what jason said like when did you guys know that you were cool and kind of shed all that stuff it's almost like what i realized was did you guys did the our appetites or people's appetites for what you guys do change or did you guys change the appetites by the stuff that you guys were doing i feel like you guys guys have been really consistent in what you do. And it's taken a while for people to catch up with, hey, these guys are doing something really cool.
Yeah, I mean, we were super ahead of our time. Way ahead of our time.
Visionaries. We're actually talking to them in the future right now.
I know that you'll never say that about yourself, but I think that you guys are. I've known you guys for a long time.
I think that's totally fair, Will. I mean, we spent, you know, eight years working on sitcoms before we really ever got to make our own thing.
And, you know, so we got to learn a lot from a lot of great people. And we got better, I think.
I mean, if you look at our student films, they're very bad. They have, like, moments.
Yeah, but I think that we were—the thing that we always had was we didn't want to do something that had ever been done before. And so we were always trying to figure out how do we do something new? How do we do something that I haven't seen a million times before? Because there's so much crap out there.
Yeah. You need to find a way to differentiate yourself.
You're just making something to make it. It's boring.
But when did you guys notice that you had been embraced either by the community or the public or maybe both such that you knew that your humor would be accepted? Yeah, because it's like, oh, it's a Lord Miller thing. So anything that feels subversive or I feel like I should be laughing, but I'm not yet.
And the audience felt like, well, I just need to catch up. I need to be a little bit smarter.
Sort of like it's like the Radiohead thing, right? Like, Jesus, I cannot tap my toe to this song, but I know it's my fault and I got to get with it. I've got to listen to OK Computer one more time.
I mean, that's where you guys sit. Thank you, I guess.
That's very generous. I think we're just sort of like too block-headed to change.
I just think it's awesome. There's a brand there, you know, that people just like, oh, my God, their humor is super-duper smart, and it is something different.
It takes a long time for me to get it because it must be funny because it doesn't seem like it's funny right now. It's your fault if you're not laughing.
That's what we want the audience to say. We'll be right back.
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and save 15% on your first year when you use promo code SMARTLESS. This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate.
Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires she gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend nicky who stays by her side through it all fx is dying for sex all episodes streaming april 4th on hulu and now back to the show so you guys worked on you guys worked on sitcom guys were... We did.
And tell the audience what shows you guys worked on. Well...
Not to brag. Primarily.
There was a Luis Guzman sitcom called Louie. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
But we actually... The one that anyone remembers is How I Met Your Mother, which we did, we worked on the first season of.
Right. So you guys worked on that show.
And I would say, again, would you think that that experience of working on a show like that with a big writer's room, did that help you hone how you told jokes in movies? Because I love those writing room experiences. They're great, and they teach you so much.
You get so many at-bats in a room full of funny people. You get to absorb a bunch of different points of view on writing and comedy.
You have this amazing safety net where you can try things out, and people help you, save you from your worst instincts right and then and it's so collaborative and that's the part that really helps you when you're making movies is that that there there's a class of filmmaker that's like a genius that you should not mess with and they just like it comes to them from zeus and then they put it on the page and on the screen. And that is not us.
Our thing is much more like, let's find it. Let's make mistakes.
And especially on an animated film, but on any movie, you're just, you know, you're getting the benefit of all these smart filmmakers that are part of the crew and part of the cast. And that experience in those writers' rooms

really helped us.

And it's allowed us to be flexible

and be open to ideas from everyone.

And part of the thing is to get a great cast of people

who can also provide stuff.

Working with Will was awesome

because he was able to...

I mean, yeah.

Well, you know, it's good and bad. They mean Forte.
I was talking about Will Forte and Will Ferrell, obviously. Yes, Forte.
Fantastic. And Ferrell.
They both give you a lot of options. And then we just did this show, the After Party, where it was just full of a bunch of funny people, and they all were able to bring a lot of stuff.
And that openness that you learn in the writer's room uh to like following the best idea is is a was a great training ground i think the other thing that really helps you is that you're also trained to listen for the audience and whether they are laughing or engaged and and that ethic is really important to our filmmaking process.

You know, just understanding what it's like to sit in a theater and experience people's vibe while they watch it. And respecting that enough to go, okay, it's not that these 500 people are dumb.
It's that we failed to convey our idea. Right.
Right, and to leave room for them to appreciate it, too, in that way,

that there is a kind of a rhythm between you and the audience, that it is a show that you're not making the jokes to make yourselves laugh. You're making it to be funny and to be entertainment.
And they have to be able to have the room to enjoy it and engage. You talked about all these people, you guys are such great collaborators.
Not only are you a collaborative team team yourselves but you guys have collaborated with a lot of people over the years multiple times one of the for example i remember i'm one of the only people a few people who've seen the uh the great pilot i think uh that you did with the lonely island boys before they did snl called awesome town oh yeah um which was so remember thinking, like, what the fuck is this, and who are these guys? It was so crazy. Now, of course it wasn't going to get picked up, because it was way too insane.
But we held the grudge about them not picking it up for quite some time. So we made that thing.
We tried to sell it to Fox, and then MTV, nobody wanted and then suddenly Five months later they became giant sensations and Andy was hosting the MTV Movie Awards. Andy Samberg, yeah.
And Phil kept texting all of the MTV execs who passed on the show going like, whoops! Here is a 50 foot tall billboard of Andy on Hollywood and Highland. The one that got away.
It was so, yeah. I was just thinking like, these guys are ahead, once again, ahead of the curve.
You guys worked with Forte so many times over the years on lots of different projects. Somebody who we all know, and it took a while for America to go like, but you guys were like, well, Forte's the funniest fucking guy ever.
And then you're proved right. Again, yeah, as we all know and it's like it took a while for america to go like but you guys were like well forte's the funniest fucking guy ever yeah and then you're proved right again yeah as we all know it do you guys in order for your sensibilities to line up did you find out as you guys were getting to know each other in college that you had similar upbringings we really did actually we both were really short in high school uh and grew late uh and so we had, we both had like a very similar upbringing, weirdly.
We can't relate to winners. That's right.
We always feel like the little pipsqueak in the corner. I'm sorry to break into you, but don't look now.
You do both seem to, like, I can't imagine you guys ever getting in an argument. What is the one area where you guys go, uh-oh, let's not talk about it? Here's the biggest fight we ever had.
The biggest fight we ever had is over the shape of Abraham Lincoln's nose. On the show Clone High.
Clone High. This is Will Forte's character.
We got him a SAG card to voice because we thought he was a funny guy. Forte was a very funny writer at that time and we had seen him at the Aspen Comedy Festival where he did a sketch where they just said the phrase ain't no party like an Otis Day party because an Otis Day party don't quit for ten minutes with different conclusions.
Which was brilliant. was brilliant.
And the most forte type. The most forte idea of all time.
So forte. And he was still, I think he was doing Groundlings and did the Goldman sketch.
The Goldman is the greatest sketch. So what's the Goldman sketch? The Goldman sketch.
Can you guys describe it? It's really not family friendly. You have to describe it.
So he's on stage. He's in full gold makeup like he's one of those robot men, the street performers.
And they have to do this sketch. It has to be the last sketch of the night for two reasons.
One is that the gold paint takes hours to get off. And the other is, well, you'll see, is that someone puts a dollar in his thing and he starts singing this song called Heart of Gold where he's explaining about his life and then it ends up devolving into this thing about how he sucks cock for his face paint and then it just becomes, he just keeps going, I'll suck cock for my face paint.
That's a lot of the word cock. Cock face paint.
And what happens is the room starts to clear. Because it goes for like, also like 10 minutes.
It goes forever. And people just decide they're going to leave.
Worst case scenario is they're going to miss maybe the last sketch or the last two sketches. So that's why they had to put it at the end.
Right. Yes.
It's one of the crazy, funniest fucking things you've ever seen, because it comes out of nowhere. At first, if I remember correctly, in the schedule, different times, but he'll get kind of, the guy puts a dollar in.
I saw him do it with Sudeikis once when they did that never aired live SNL at UCB during the writer's strike and whatever. He's like, puts the thing in, he's trying to get him to move, and then he finally starts, and then he just does it to, he's not even doing it to the characters, He's doing it to the thing in he's trying to get him to move and then he finally starts and then he just does it to he's not even doing the characters he's doing it to the audience i saw a car for my face paint and he just breaks him that i love that the character is so like just just hearing that for the first time i'm thinking how important that face paint is to that character that he would do anything to obtain it of course it's incredible and it's so forte.
Now look, I know that you guys don't fight but we've never fought but we have to bring up because I don't know if these guys know. Let's talk about the time that you guys fired me.
Oh boy. Is that true? It is true.
We did. Talk slow.
Let's hear it. Jason really wants to save her.
We had cast Will for the lead in Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs. It's true.
Well, well. Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs.
And the studio did not think he was the right voice. They thought he was too old, too that.
Sounding. Too that.
Thank you, Bill. For the character.
Thank you. Yeah.
He sounds, well, now I get this, right? So his voice is so... And listen, this is why the guy sells trucks that are professional grade.
Like, fucking Hater couldn't sell a truck, you know? Hater could, you know, sell something a little bit more sensible, a little bit more economic. He could sell a funny truck.
So we tried to prove everyone wrong and be like, you don't understand. He's really funny.
He's great. He's vulnerable.
He's wonderful. He's fantastic.
And we tried, and they said no. I will say that this is 100% on us, because we had, like, a first act screening that went great.
And then we put the whole movie together. With Arnett's voice? With Arnett's voice.
With Will's voice. Me and Amy.
You and Amy. Yeah.
And then we put the whole movie together. With Arnett's voice? With Will's voice.
Me and Amy. You and Amy.
And we put the whole movie together and it sucked. And the reason the whole movie sucked was because we were good at making you pay attention for 20 minutes at a time.
But you have a whole movie if the audience can't really root for the main character and get on board i don't care how funny it is they go to sleep and what was going on is like every five minute sequence was like a really funny sequence unto itself and then strung together you're like what is this about why do i like these people and what am i rooting for and what's emotional about it we're like doesn't matter it's real funny and the audience just wouldn't go there so and uh the the studio basically blew the movie to bits and we're like start over i remember where i was i was on i remember i was on Motor, right by Rancho, right by the swimming pool there, just south of the Fox lot when I got the call. Just looking for lost balls, you know? Yeah, just, I was just- Picking up some shag balls.
Picking up shag balls from Hillcrest Country Club. And I remember, and I remember, well, I was on the bag.
I was just doing a loop that loop that day. I picked up and, you know, and I remember getting the call and Amy was back in New York and I pulled over and I go, well, looks like we both got fired from Cloudy.
What's a chance of people? Oh, Amy got fired too? Oh, it was a team fire. Yeah, it was a team fire.
It was a whole movie blow up. It was a sad time.
And so then years later. That's bad.
Oh, go finish your story, Will. So we didn't talk for a long time.
That was like the last time. These guys were really sweet.
And they're like, we're so sorry that it's happening this way. And I was like, okay, cool.
And like, it's hard not to, no matter what the circumstances, when you get fired, it's hard not to be like, I get it. And I get this.
And they kept putting, again, very kindly, like, it's on us. And the movie, and I was like, okay, okay.
And it's not to, like, go like, yeah, yeah, they say that, but it's really me. I'm terrible and I'm the worst.
But years later, when we were making the Lego movie, we were like, you know who would be perfect for Batman is Will. But then we were like, he may not want to talk to us again.
And so then we went to the studio and said, we want to hire Will, but we have a thing. No matter what, he has to stay this part.
No way. We cannot fire him no matter what happens.
If you fire us, that's fine. You got to keep him on.
We had to run it all the way up to Jack Warner. That's right.
Yeah, they dug up Jack Warner. It got him to sort of nod Weekend made him nod.
Now, when you guys are... Let me just finish that story to say this.
So these guys call me up. I remember at the time Sharon, my agent at the time, she called me.
She's like, Phil and Chris want to call you. Don't hang up.
And she's like, they have something they want to say to you. And she didn't tip it.
And these guys were like, listen, so we're going to do the Lego movie. Do you want to play Batman? And I was like, I don't even get that sentence.
I don't know what the Lego movie means. Like, what are you talking about? And then they walked me through it.
And I remember, this is my recollection of it. So we go, we make the movie.
Oh, my God. And didn't Michael Cera play Robin too? No, that was in Lego Batman.
Yes. Which we made three.
We ended up making three movies uh and these guys i remember we go in the first couple times we're at recording at warner brothers and i've you know you do a lot of things where you work on that are really fun especially in person they're really fun making animated movies can be quite an isolating experience and not that much fun but these guys were in the booth some of the hardest laughs i've ever had in show business were in in my life forget show business we're in the booth with these two guys we laughed so hard at one point we were doing this scene about batman you guys remember know what i'm going to talk about yeah about batman what tell me what the line was uh was it the thing about he has a he has like a crippling need to party with other people? With complete strangers. Wait, so you guys are laughing about stuff that you couldn't possibly use in the movie.
Is that right? I think we used that. Part of it.
He was trying to explain why he was like... Why he abandoned everyone to go party with a bunch of strangers.
It turned out he had a crippling addiction to partying with complete strangers. Yeah.
He was positioning himself as the victim. Which was amazing.
It wasn't rated R, was it? No. No, no, no.
Like a movie? No. But it was adjacent, was it not? Was it PG-13? No, it was very PG.
Oh, really? PG. But anyway, so just to tie this up, so I remember we did that.
I had so many amazing times laughing with these guys and just the funniest and all the stuff that they pitched and would say to me in the moment because there'd be the script and then one of them would be like, say this, say this, say this. And we just had so many great, amazing moments.
And their brilliance was incredible. And then we go and the movie comes out.
I remember that night and guys go we go to this that bar in santa monica we all had dinner do you remember another veto's another weird italian restaurant that's true and the returns the returns start coming in on the movie and it's just doing better and better like every 15 minutes they're like no wait it's gonna make this and then i was like this is so crazy and then the guy and then they said to me they go hey uh how would you feel if we made lego a lego batman movie next and this is like on the night of this like total victory opening night yeah opening night i'm like yeah i guess they're like yeah the studio wants to do it i was like are you kidding and so like and then i said and i don't know if you guys remember i go i'm really glad that clarity of the chance of meatballs did not work out yeah yeah everything happens for a reason for sure it was the best now when you guys write an animated film you obviously have to wait to have all the the animation done uh that happens after the the voices are recorded um is it a different process for you guys um doing versus, because you have to rely on, you guys aren't still doing the animating, right? The animation? No, no, we're not. We don't.
We have much more talent than ours. So the whole half of the movie, you have to rely on a whole different set of creative contributions different than what you can sort of control and guide on a live set,

right? How different is it for you? Yeah. In a funny way, it's the same skill set, which is you're trying to create an environment where everyone you're working with can thrive and bring something of themselves to it.
So, you know, it's either in the booth with really talented guys like you, or you're in a sweatbox, you know, watching footage with a bunch of animators in a room. And, like, each person's worked on a shot for weeks.
Yeah. And so you're just talking about, like, one moment of, like, Flint Lockwood sipping coffee and trying to figure out what would be the funniest, most interesting way for him to do that.
But how do you articulate to an animator how to draw something that matches your sense of humor? Like, you guys are so great with some of your dry humor, too. Like, how do you talk to an animator about making the eyes sort of be half-lidded and the characters kind of over it.
And like, that seems like a hard thing to be able to manage every frame. Yeah, because it seems like you'd have to hire animators who are funny people as well.
Exactly. You do.
And I think that's part of being a good animator is being able to do that. You're doing half the performance, you know, you're listening to the voice and imagining what it might be.
And as a director or producer, you're doing, it's the same thing as working with an actor. It's just in a much slower process.
But do you audition those animators? Like, do you look at their stuff and go, oh, that person knows how to draw? You end up casting, you cast the animator to the shot where you're like, I think this person can do a good job on this bit because this thing is really easy and really straightforward.

Or this one is one that needs a little subtlety.

Or this one, there's this one person and she's amazing at this type of comedy.

So you hire a team and then you kind of delegate.

You do the love scene, you do the action scene, you do the dry humor scene.

It's shot to shot. So you get like 50, 60 animators and at minimum.
I mean, these days you're getting hundreds. Wow.
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How many times, how many, can you think back now of moments where you're just standing there in front of an animator and you're acting out what you want? Sometimes that definitely happens. On Cloudy, where, you know, a lot of stuff now happens in Vancouver, so you're usually working remote.
But on Cloudy, we were all in a room with 60 people at a time. And so yeah, you would stand up and go like, what if Flint types like a Muppet like this? And most people are scratching their heads going, who are these clowns? But every once in a while, there'll be one person go like, yeah, I got that.
I totally get what you're laying there. But you also want to be open to everyone else's ideas.
Once the team feels like they can pitch something and it'll get into the movie, as long as you give them the direction of the tone and you show them what success looks like, everyone wants to get on board and jump in. And it's just like having a really talented cast of improvisers that can like, okay, I know what we're going for.
I know the tone. I know the vibe.
I know if I say this, it's going to be on the cutting room floor. But if I say this, it has a chance of making it into the show.
Are you guys a fan of anything of current animation now? Do you watch those shows? Are you like, I'm in it. I can't watch it.
I'm too, it's my life. I come and go.
Sometimes I can't. I have to only watch things that we can't possibly make.
Right. Like a drama or like a docuseries or something.
But the cool thing about animation these days is there's so much great work happening and it all looks different. And we're in a golden age where people are trying wild stuff.
Yeah. And on the feature side, which is generally a little more conservative, it's starting to get really wild, which is, you know, you feel good about.
I find that hard to believe that there's something that you guys can't do. And I know you're being modest, but I mean, you guys shift pretty seamlessly between live action and animation.
Certainly I know in comedy and you guys, it's what you do, but you've done it to, to, with, with such great ease. I kind of wonder what, cause you guys do like, you do the Jump street movies and then you do lego and then you do uh spider-verse and then you do the after party what what are those moments where you guys look at each other and go all right it's time to it's time to do an animated movie or do you have those or is it just as stuff becomes how do you decide what to do since you can do so much there's i mean clearly we just never say no we need to no a little bit more.
And it's all happening at once. And I can't say there's any calculation or thinking about like a filmography or a strategy like that.
We're literally just going like, oh, we had that idea two years ago. How are we going to get that up on its feet? You guys had very, even though you met in college, you're from different parts of the country, obviously.

Phil, you grew up in Miami, is that right?

True fact.

True fact.

Do you still have a connection?

Go Marlins? Go Heat?

Go Dolphins.

Oh.

Because I grew up, I'm an old fart who grew up

before there were Marlins or Heat.

You love Dan Greasy.

I mean, I'm a huge Bob Greasy fan.

Bob Greasy.

And then Brian Greasy was my locker mate in the seventh grade. Wow.
And his son, Brian, is now a broadcaster, but is also a quarterback in the league. And was in the seventh grade, I weighed 60 pounds.
and Brian weighed 200

and was six feet

tall. Oh my god, the

duo Halloween costume options

there are exciting. They're really good.

Yeah, he wanted me

to be a parrot and always a

pirate.

So you were big Mark Clayton and Mark Duper fans

is what I'm gleaning. The Marks Brothers.

My heart was broken

in the one Super Bowl

we were in and then losing to the

Thank you. So you were big Mark Clayton and Mark Duper fans is what I'm gleaning.
The Marks brothers. My heart was broken in the one Super Bowl we were in.
And then losing to the damn Patriots in 85 was horrible. It scarred me for life.
It was terrible. Sports! Sports.
Chris, do you have a similar affiliation with sports? I do. I'm a sports fan from the great Pacific Northwest.
So, you know, I'm a Marers, Seahawks, Seattle Supersonics fan. Haven't been to any Sonics games recently, but I'm excited to get back to those.
And you're excited for the Kraken, obviously, for the big NHL team. Well, you guys couldn't have grown up further away from one another.
Like the absolute corner corner entry. It's the diagonal.
It's either San Diego and Maine. That's right.
But both port cities. That's right.
See? With a significant illicit drug trade. Sure, sure.
Yeah. I'm just trying to think, well, first of all, yeah, that's true, but Miami, obviously, it's got Miami Vice, which was pretty great.
What's the biggest? We had grunge music when I was there. You had grunge music.
Yeah. You guys had the killing.
Yeah, we invented overpriced coffee while I was there. You guys had Miami Vice, and Chris, you had Northern Exposure, so that's good.
There you go. That's right.
Chris, how old are your kids, Chris? They're 13 and 9. Boy, girl? Exactly, one of each.
Yeah. Salt-N-Pepa, match set.
Do they like the movies? They like the movies. That you guys make? Yeah, no, it's a thing.
I mean, they haven't seen the Jump Street movies yet. Although, you know, they're getting close to the age.
13's getting ready. Yeah.
But they do. They like the movies that we make.
And they give notes. They're like, act two's a little slow.
Can you guys do another one of those? Can you direct another comedy movie?

For some reason, they're just so frigging rare.

They've got the After Party.

They've got the After Party on Apple TV+. Okay, gotcha.

It's a live-action murder mystery comedy.

Thanks a lot for making Murderville right around the same time, Will.

That was really helpful.

Sorry.

Would you guys ever go back to your traditional kind of beginning and do a multicam traditional sitcom? Like a classic sitcom? Yeah, would you ever want to do that? Yeah, I mean, if the right one was there. What if the wrong one was there? The wrong one? Could you make it right? Probably, we could do that as well.
Sean's got something he's going to send you. Three guys in their 50s, right? Yeah, I'm listening, yes, yes.
And people, the first thing you're going to say is, these guys are in their 50s? No way. That's the name of the show.
These guys are in their 50s in Terribank. We call it that or we call it Ring Light, the series.
50 play 35. You've kind of got the concept probably already.
I want to mention, Jason's being also, he's being, I know he's geeking out because Mitchell versus the Machines. We talked about it.
Man, is that good. So, Jason, I'm going to let you loose on the boys because it is a great movie.
You know, you sit there and you want to find some time to gobble stuff up with your kid, you know, and you search and you're searching. Let's give this thing a try.
And oh, my God, I did not stop laughing. I was certainly grinning the entire time because it was all so fresh, so sharp, so left when you think it's going to go right.
I mean, just everything. That's their hallmark, man.
I know, but like I kept looking over at my, I think I watched it first with my 15-year-old and then with my 10-year-old. Wait, what's it called? It's called The Mitchells

vs. the Machines.
And that's the movie you

guys did. I'm sorry.
Yeah, we produced it on

Netflix. Oh, that's great.

And it's just stunningly

good.

And I was laughing more

than they were because it's that

smart, that great.

You know the great animated

stuff that works for adults and for kids?

It's just, that's not easy.

I'm sorry. And then you do, and now

Thank you. smart, that great.
I want to see that. The great animated stuff that works for adults and for kids.

It's just, that's not easy.

I'm sorry.

And now you said you're working on another Spider-Verse movie.

It's true.

And it should be noted that, I mean, you guys are dipping in.

You're one of the only sort of creatives who have been allowed to dip into DC and dip into Marvel.

I don't want to make too big of a deal about it.

Lest they catch wind. Duffel time.
But alas, here we are. And that's Into the Spider-Verse.
Man, that movie, you know you go and you have preconceived notions, and I shouldn't have. I went to see it because I love you guys and I was like, it's going to be.
But at the very last minute minute thinking like, how different can this be? And then just being absolutely blown away by that film. I just, I couldn't have loved it anymore.
And I don't know. So now I'm thinking, well, you guys are making another one.
How are they going to re-break their own mold? That has been the real challenge, right? Is that, you know, you don't want to just do the same thing. The brand is innovation.
And so then you're like, well, how the hell are we going to make this thing different from the last one? Is that what keeps you guys up? Is that the thing that you talk about the most, like across the desk to each other? Yeah, I think we like that project in particular. You're sort of freaking out going, how do we recreate the feeling of being in the theater watching that movie?

Which is to be surprised.

But all of these moves that we already did are off the table.

So you're sitting there going, okay, emotionally, what can we do that will feel like a left turn, but still feel like it belongs there?

What about writing something for live, live stage, like a musical, a play, something like that?

Thank you. that will feel like a left turn, but still feel like it belongs there.
What about writing something for live, live stage, like a musical, a play, something like that? We came for two seconds. There was an idea of a Lego Broadway show that was like, no, no.
It was getting kicked around. And we were thankful that that did not happen.
We were like, this seems so hard, which, of course, makes us want to do it. Sean, don't say no.
The guy could have a prosthetic stomach and plastic hair. Yes, exactly.
A fat suit and a plastic wig. Think about him.
He's Lego. But that notion of having to better yourselves each time is that I imagine for any artist that creates things from the ground up, that there is some, some sort of an onerous thing that would sit with you.
Like, how can I, how can I make the next thing better? And, and, and do you find that your own taste progresses naturally into a new, a new place of, of talent? Or do you feel like you guys have to push yourselves to continually grow and be even funnier and be even more sort of subversive? Or does it just happen naturally that your taste just develops? I mean, it's sort of both in that we don't like to repeat ourselves and we don't like to feel bored. And so, and I don't think we do a very good job unless we feel like we're doing something that we haven't done before that feels like maybe not that many other people have done it before.
That kind of drives us. So I think sometimes we'll be sitting there going like, why do I hate this? And oh, it's because it just feels like an easy choice.
And so we then... But you also don't want to be new just for the sake of being new and odd and different.
So how do you balance that? You have to build on some fundamentally universal relationship things that are not new. But every specific choice has to be different.
And I think that the granular sort of embryo of that process is just the conversation between the two of us, which is, you know, yeah, I think this thing is really funny, but I'm looking over at Chris and he's just like not having it. So it makes, instead of getting mad and going like, why don't you like it? It makes you retreat and go, okay, how can I make this even better? How do I get it up the hill? And maybe Chris can help me.
Like, here's what I'm going for. Well, this is why I didn't go for it, but maybe you could try.
And then you wind up building something that neither one of us would have thought of. Right.
It's great having somebody to be like, okay, I'm trying to make this thing that I think Phil is going to like. And luckily our sensibilities are juvenile enough that we can make things that kids seem to like also.
But we're never really... That's how Sean and Scotty are with lunch.
Yeah. You know what I mean? They're both building towards they have something that they like and they like the sandwich and then the tuna and the thing and the chips and they look at each other.
Look at this. We made it.
We made it. Crack mac and cheese.
Two boxes. Are you guys proud as you should be that your partnership is healthy and that it's harmonious and that you guys still enjoy one another? Because I'm sure that that takes as much work and attention and respect as you have in your personal relationships and partnerships as well, right? I've got two marriages that I've got to juggle all the time.
know, it's like I've got like a family in Arizona that is a secret family. But yeah, so it really is.
I mean, the good thing is, you know, if you're building it off of respect and admiration and if you feel like, oh, this is a person that's bringing a lot to the table that I can't do and is, you know, if you admire the person, it's a lot easier than if you're like, oh, this fucking dead weight. Can you guys identify what one person is better at than the other? Do you guys have clearly two different lanes? It doesn't seem like there's tons of overlap.
Write it on a piece of paper and show it at the same time. Like is one person better at story and the other person is better at dialogue? It's not that probably if that were the case but we you know we're both we both have a lot of strong opinions about everything yeah i i think we would never find out if one of us was weaker at something because i don't think we'd ever be able to admit it but but i i do think there's sometimes i i get a little more frustrated or hot-headed in like a meeting.
And nobody cares. But if Chris gets upset, then everyone pays attention.
Because he rarely does? He rarely does. I'm more soft-spoken.
So is upset. We've been in a few meetings where somebody said something that was so appalling that Chris could no longer function.
And I immediately flipped into Mr. Peacemaker, Mr.
Constructive, let's get this together. And I just realized, oh, I have that muscle.
It's just that it's atrophied because Chris is there to pick me up every time I get caught. It's the perfect marriage.
That's so true. It really is.
This is incredible. And I like the way that you're like, you don't want to admit it to you.
This is like, it's the equivalent of like keeping it hot. Keeping it hot.
God, you guys are still dating. And then you guys get to make all these little babies together.

Ew, don't say it like that.

And don't fucking shoo your shoulders either.

They're making a cartoon baby this time.

And the next time they're making a film baby.

Phil and Chris, God, we could talk to you guys forever.

You guys are the best. Thank you for taking time from your new office yeah go make more good stuff you guys are so nice I can't believe you gave us this many compliments I just expected stern you know skepticism no no no no we're fans you guys are it we're fans you guys are really really nice of you to do this.
Thank you guys. You guys are the sweetest.
Thanks for having us. Chris, say hi to Sissy Poo.
I will. I will.
I'll tell her you said hello. Thanks.
Boys, thank you so much. All the best on After Party in the second season.
Looking forward to everything. Thank you very much.
And just thanks. Good luck with everything.
Thank you guys. Thank you, fellas.
All right. Have a great rest of the day.
Bye, guys. Bye, guys.
Bye, bye, bye, bye. Bye.
Bye. Real good.
Real good. So when they double dip, when they do DC and then other times they do Marvel or whatever the other one is, do they just maybe switch their – they go Miller-Lord instead of Lord Miller, and that way people lose track of them? I think when they did Lego Movie, there were actually a lot of properties involved in that.
It just so happens that Warner Brothers is affiliated with the DC brand. Yeah, because I think they could just switch their names, just go Miller-Lord, and they'd think it's a different couple.
Well, they had everybody in that. I remember one thing was in Lego Batman, there was a line where I say, what's the password, when he's going into into the Batcave and I say, Iron Man sucks.
And they're like, oh, you can't say that. Sure, it's going to be okay.
I don't think anybody's going to mind if I say that. And we had to go and ask.
Yeah. They are, honestly, they are, you know, Jason, you brought up when you go to the movies, especially when you want to see an animated film and you need a movie.
Yeah, those guys are it. Well, a movie that kind of appeals to everybody.

And not in that way of like, hey, you know, the way that executives think,

like it's got to be four quadrant because they want to just hit everybody.

It's actually really good for everybody.

Like not just really, really good for everybody.

Yeah.

That's what they do.

And it's not like they're doing it in a contrived sort of deliberate strategic way. I think they just, they're just that smart, that funny, where there's a little bit for everyone in what makes them laugh.
Yeah. I love their stuff.
They're just incredible. I truly meant it.
Working on those Lego movies with those dudes. I can't believe they can do everything.
They can do big animated films. They can do live action, ensemble comedy stuff like 21 Jump Street.
You know? Yeah, I mean, it's amazing. And then they do this series, and now they got the After Party, which is a hilarious series.
By the way, it's so smart of them to always zigzag because, like they said, our brand is Invention, or what did they say? Innovation. Their brand is, what did he just say?

Is he trying to back into a buy?

No, he's not.

This is the person that he's actually legit.

No, he said our brand is innovative or something like that.

You can't label them as one thing, which is so smart.

Yeah.

Great.

Thanks, Sean.

Now I just remember when I'm getting Sean for Christmas.

Is it a half a brain? It's a the getting Sean for Christmas. Is it a half a brain?

It's a thesaurus.

Is it a thesaurus?

I wonder if he's got room.

I wonder if there's anything wrong in their life.

Like, everything seems so great.

I wonder, like, do you think they have some real devious problem,

like on the weekends? Let's make it up. They hope nobody ever finds out about.
Yeah, like, they double park. Right.
Oh, those sons of bitches. You know what I mean? Those are the ones.
They're the ones. They're the ones that just kind of straddle the line, you know? Because they don't want anyone dinging their door.
No, they don't. I think they're probably just really good guys.

And you know what?

Guy rhymes with.

If you could see the glint in his eye for such a lazy.

He's so happy with this one.

You know what?

Guy rhymes with.

You have to say you know what it rhymes with.

This is fucking, even for you, this is so lazy.

And I'm going to allow it because I want you to shame yourself. Go ahead.
Well, it rhymes with bye. No, that's lazy.
It's lazy. You know, you're going to have to stick around and come up with a bigger one.
Yeah, you know what? Let's hang them out. No, we didn't join in.
We can't let you have it. Sure.
Let's keep going. Let's see.
Sean, you know why? Because if I let you go, and if I let that one go today, and there's some listeners, you know what that could do? That could come back and bite you in the ass. Love you both.
Bye. Love you.
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