"Thom Yorke & Jonny Greenwood"

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How'd you sleep last night? I felt really good. All right, move your arm.
Move your arm. Okay, sorry, sorry.
Sorry. Boy, a lot of kicking last night.
I know. I had this recurring thing that I just, I kept thinking like, it was, you were running away from me.
Oh, you're kind of breathy this morning. Can you just back up just a little bit? It was that.
That's what you said in the dream. Dreams reality.
No, see right there, those exhales of depression is what really smells. Okay, well bring your nose up close and smell.
You ready for this? Yeah. It's an all new Smart List.
Smart List. Smart List.
Smart List. What do you got, a coffee milkshake? No, I've got a smoothie.
Milkshake. It's a milkshake.
Almond butter and just a bunch of healthy stuff. Have you guys seen, I know, Jason, you haven't, the original Danish version of The Killing? No, man.
First of all, I know I had you at Danish because you're like, what kind? Jeez. I've heard that.
So international. That's for sure.
Tell us about it, Will. God, it god it's good we can get in here with the scissors and cut this out god god it's so it's so so good okay wait i started watching boba fett that you have to check out oh that's the new star wars one yeah did you did you and scotty put on your comfy couch socks and and and take in a couple of Star Wars onesies.
Is it better than, what's the other one that's on? The Mandalorian? Is it better than that? It's just as good, yeah. That's a politic of you.
Yeah, no, it's really good. Guys, we got serious people waiting to come on.
People? Yeah. Actually, I did a double book here.
And you're welcome. Okay, well, I haven't said, say.
So just hush. Okay.
Yeah, you will. The killing is Danish.
It's a Danish show. I got it.
Fellas, today's a tough one for me. Today's guests are from my dream list.
That is a list that I gave our producer, Michael, before we even began. These are people that we'll never get.
They're just examples of the kinds of folks that I would die to be trapped in an elevator with. I never asked him for an update on pursuing these folks because that would be a waste of my time.
But a month ago, he surprised me with a text out of nowhere that said these guys were coming on. So a tough day for me.
These fellas are in a band. It is, in my opinion, the best band and has been since they started.
They have a new band that we're going to talk about, but the one you're going to know them from has consistently given us music that is never routine. It's challenging in the best way, and never two songs the same.
They met in school along with their other bandmates and they've been playing together ever since. That's admirable.
The smile. Because they're as old as we are.
They've released nine plus albums, sold over 30 million copies, won six Grammys, and were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2019. Fellas, if this is a dream, I'm good to stay down, smother me with a pillow and say night night.
Please welcome from my favorite band in the world, Yes Will Radiohead, Tom York and Johnny Greenway. No way.
No fucking way. I knew it.
I knew it. When you said they had a new band, I was like, I know it because I've heard the new single.
These guys are incredible. Are you kidding? Tom and Johnny, my God, what an honor and pleasure to have you guys here.
Jason, we saw these guys together, didn't we not? Like 2003? I don't remember if I was with you because I was probably in a blackout of pleasure. But sure, if you were there, great.
Where was that, Will? Was it Hollywood Bowl, Will? Hollywood Bowl, yeah. Oh, right, okay.
Well, while we're on the subject of that, can you whisper to us when we might be able to see you live again? Which? So Radiohead, when do you think we might hear a new album or see you live again? Again, something I was going to ease you into, but let's get into it.

No idea.

You can't even whisper it.

No, really no idea.

Well, we like to tour when we have new songs,

and we only have new songs when we make a new record,

and we only seem to make a record in increasingly Blue Moons.

So who knows?

But Smile, Smile, you're close to finishing that.

That new single you guys released the other day was incredible to hear. Thank you.
Yeah, that's pretty much, there was a bit of a delay while we, what was I doing? Oh, actually, I was trying to do the artwork. I was trying to do the pictures.
Of all the things to delay a record, that is the first time that's been the thing. So the songs are done with that and you're just working on the artwork for the for the album uh it's pretty much done um i think i even have a title but i'm not gonna tell you what that is yet that's taken a long time all right it's all taken a long time i think it's partly just the um not not being able to see each other for prolonged periods of time being told to stay indoors was it you know i do a bunch of great research on wikipedia and i think when they did the one thing they did say is that uh or implied is that smile was maybe kind of a covid baby was it something that you guys put like this podcast for us was just us just trying to communicate while we're separated is that is that how smile came about well in actual fact no it came about um really really quickly and then painfully long uh we we we got into a studio and uh johnny and tom had already it felt like they'd like tracked about four things before i even knew what was going on um and then there and then sort of lockdown happened shortly after this is skinner the the drummer tom skinner yeah gotcha yeah and then i was left with the what we'd recorded on tape which was fine really fun to do to go on to tape again and then then i was sat there trying to puzzle out the lyrics for a very long time locked in a house so and then it was it got sort of protracted and protracted it was deeply frustrating but it's been the same for everybody I mean I figured out a way to record vocals like over the internet straight into Nigel's studio that was pretty wild so I was kind of like virtually into his studio did you do that like on an ISDN or like on Source Connect yeah Source Connect but you know anything after o'clock, forget it because that's when the kids get home from school.
Yeah, like that's it. Yeah, same.
You have to stop. Is that an atypical way for you guys to make music where the music happens first and then the lyrics? I apologize, but you get this question a lot.
I've actually asked it a few times to musicians. And the consensus is that it's a little of each.
Sometimes it's music first, sometimes it's lyrics first. Or is there like one you prefer? Is there like a set, you know what, I really, really want to focus on lyrics first? Because I always find that fascinating too, just the birth of a song.
Well, yeah, it does depend. I think Johnny had come with a bunch of ideas and I hadn't seen him for a while so they all just came pouring out before I could go, wait, wait, wait.
So there was a lot of me sort of retrospectively going, okay, what am I going to do with that? Which was really nice. It was really like a challenge for me.
And then there are other ones like the one we released last week, You Will Never Work in Television again, was... My odd.

Odd to Sean Hayes.

Was that pointed at Sean?

Yeah.

How did you guys know about Sean's future?

Like, how did you...

I don't think it's unique

to Sean.

How did you guys...

How did you guys...

Do you guys remember

writing your first song?

Like, how did that go?

First ever.

Yeah, first ever.

Like, was it music for...

Like, that...

How did it... I don't know.
How did it... How did you, like, hey, we've written a song? You know what I mean? I remember writing one when I was 11 called Mushroom Cloud.
Huh. But I can only remember half the riff now and none of the lyrics.
But then Johnny, I remember Johnny and I, like, we borrowed a four track off someone, went around to his mom's house. Was this at, what is it, Abingdon School where you guys all met? Yeah.
Yes. And the band was on a Friday because, guys, that was when they decided to record, right? Mm-hmm.
Wait, back to the songwriting thing. Do you guys ever, because I do this sometimes, I'll be dreaming the most incredible, like, lick or lyrics or something.
Not that I write music, but I'm like, wow, that's amazing. I can't wait to wake up.
I'm going to remember. And of course, I never remember.
Have you ever dreamt a song and actually remembered it and then wrote it? Bits. Bits.
Bits of it. But it's always slightly underwhelming.
Not quite as genius as you thought it was at that moment just before you woke up.

I actually know the story of these two musicians whom we all know and revere

and have been doing it a long time.

And I'm not going to name drop them because I'll get called out for it.

I will later.

But one of them called up the other one and said, what's been going on?

And he said, oh, man, I took mushrooms last night and i had the most genius ideas and i wrote them all down hang on let me go get it so he came back and he's like i've written down this i have this incredible epiphany and he starts to read it to himself and he goes what does it say and then he goes no it's total rubbish he was so excited he thought like yeah what's that like tom you wake up and you roll over and you just start dictating a lyric or or tune into your iphone and and and your wife rolls over next to you and it's oh he's come up with another idea she's a very sound sleeper happily there you go but actually um phones are convenient because they have their own lights so you can literally wake up at three o'clock in the morning, start scribbling and go back to sleep or much of something, which I do frequently. I mean, I have pretty much given up using an actual physical notebook now.
Yeah. Which is weird for me.
Digitally. There's really no point.
So the coming together of all of these ideas for a song, you know, you guys have consistently been so sort of forward moving with your sound, with the progression of the sound of your band and you challenge the audience to kind of get with different time and all that stuff. I would assume that the moment you hear this new idea from any one of your bandmates as you guys introduce them into and building a song out, that moment of surprise and maybe discomfort in a good way has got to be the same for you as it is for us, the audience, when we first hear it.
So what is that process like when you hear Johnny come in with something that sounds totally bizarre with one of these new instruments that he's working on or you, Tom, will bring it in with the piano or lyric or something like that. How much time do you give it before you decide whether it's a fit or not? In other words, I'll listen to a song 30 times before I'm like, oh my God, this is my favorite song ever.
Because it's rarely on the first one. I mean, you guys are so beautifully atypical with your rhythms.
What's that process for you guys as you start to meld all of these different ideas into songs? Johnny, you want to try that one? Wow. Sorry about that.
We'll be right back. We have to take a fucking break after that.
Are you fucking kidding me, Bateman? I know. Jesus fucking...
This is a big one for me, Will. Johnny and Tom are here.
I think it was something about numbers. Johnny's just finished his fourth beer.
Great song. I'm going to be bored halfway through this answer, but I'm going to go for it.
I'll stay awake, Johnny. You and me.
Thank you, Johnny. No, thank you for your candor.
Wow. What did he ask again?

He doesn't even know.

When you hear weird stuff,

how long do you take to decide whether it's weird or great?

Well, it's odd because we've... I think over the years and decades,

we've kind of learned to trust

when you hear something that just sounds senseless,

like the early takes of Everything in its Right Place, which is the first song on Koday. And that just sounded like a bizarre noise.
And this isn't going to be a song. But sure enough, after a day or two, it suddenly becomes this magical thing.
About six months, but anyway. Yeah.
Do you have those moments like, Johnny, where you do, so where you come in, kind of to what Jason was saying, and this happens in what we do too, where it's like, okay, well, here's the script. Here's what you're going to do.
Everybody knows their role. You kind of come in.
And then as you do it, magic happens. Something happens.
Somebody does something a different way. Somebody says something a way that you didn't, and then you end up finding like a bit, you end up finding a moment, you find a joke, you find something that kind of elevates it, and you kind of look at each other, and when it's over, you kind of be like, oh, that was fucking, that was cool.
Yeah, I mean, I think that's all the creative stuff you're hoping for the sum of the parts to be, you know, greater when things happen together it's the whole sort of you know gestalt thing if i can use that gruesome word sure can i just ask real quickly what are you guys doing here like you know is it because why did you say yes is it because you've listened to the podcast and you like it a b your B, your manager made you do it? Or C, you saw Sean on Broadway in Promises Promises and you just wanted to hang out with him? Can you tell that I've totally zoomed in on Sean? That's the only picture I'm looking at. We couldn't tell until you...
That's all I want to say. You know what? Take a number.
That's all anybody wants. Tom and Johnny, I wanted to ask you guys about your influences because when you guys first came out with your first record that I was aware of, it immediately was one of those, I think it's the hallmark of a really great band to me and I don't mean to embarrass you.
You have that thing where you go, oh, I really like this sound. I feel like I know this sound.
Like it feels new and simultaneously very familiar because it sort of, I always say music that scratches the niche that you didn't know you had in a way. And I always felt that way about Radiohead's music.
And I don't know, who are the guys that you and people that you listened to growing up, like in high school? And who are the bands that you were like, oh, you just couldn't, what were the records you couldn't stop playing? Like for me, I couldn't stop playing the Smiths. From 1983 till 1989, I could not stop playing the Smiths.
Still playing them. Yeah, still playing them.
My daughter's now playing them and I'm loving it. I mean, I suppose for us it was, you know, Pixies, New Order.
Sonic Youth. Bands like that, yeah.
I mean, mean the boston bands we kept calling them we were into throwing muses and you know oh god throwing muses is a great band and did your attraction to um atypical instruments come from your early exposure to classical music from from your dad again some of the stuff that i i thought I picked up here on the internet, listening to, because I'm a big classical music fan, and so your sort of openness to all these other instruments, was that part of that early seeding? My adolescent fantasy was constantly driving past a music shop and wishing I could go in there and buy an instrument. And it was about just being able to buy any instrument.
It wasn't about collecting guitars or keyboards or something. It was like, imagine just being able to go in and just buy a clarinet or buy an accordion.
Wouldn't that be amazing? And that's sort of how my life has panned out now. I do collect these kind of things.
Because you love all the different sounds that they can make and how that kind of creates a spectrum. I mean, to me, it's all technology.
Just some of it is older. A piano is older technology than a Moog and everything, but it's still somebody's idea and it's a way of making music.
And then was it a coincidence that you guys all became attracted to what technology and electronics can do to enhance and augment all the sort of traditional sounds of instruments?

Or did one of you sort of start with that and kind of help the rest of the band incorporate that and embrace that?

I think there was a little bit of when we first started, it was we were a small band traveling around in a van. Who was driving? Actually, we took it in turns.
Me, not often, because I was usually drunk in the back. Oh, Tom.
Mostly the more responsible members of the band. Who is that? Can I guess? Phil, Ed, or Tim, our long-suffering tour manager.
And it was like, I think basically what happened was we all swapped what we were listening to a lot. And I think as the years went on, we started listening to different things, started sharing Morricone, watching Kubrick films,

listening to electronic music, discovering Krautrock,

discovering Cannes, discovering this, discovering that.

And Johnny was always the multi-instrumentalist,

could pick up absolutely anything, including recorder.

And then we had our own studio,

so we could like buy equipment and learn how to use it and that was exciting Tell me about how much craft work you guys listen to on the bus, in the van Huh, not enough I mean we literally study Computer World that album in terms of playing it to each other and discussing what's going on and why it's so good. We can pretty much list what every instrument was and how they did every, and especially they came on tour with us to South America once.
No. And we had a very long prolonged dinner with them where we basically dissected the whole record and asked which instrument and what was used on every single piece of that.
No way. Which was the ultimate geek out.
That's great. Wow.
I always did it, gave them a completely conversation-killing opener by going up to them. They're sweet people and saying, hi, Ralph, we're all very scared of you.
That's how I started this interview, damn it. You can't move on from that.
You can't. And we will be right back.
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And now back to the show. What was the Kubrick influence for you guys? Was it just his way to um use classical music throughout his his his films and and and that the power the majesty of that juxtaposed with some of those images was that that does it for me with him yeah I I it was a pendereski thing in the shining was a really massive one but that I remember seeing the shining for the the first time and making the connection on a sort of deeper emotional level through that.
And it just sort of seemed to fit where we were at with OK Computer as well at the time, you know, as did Morricone. There's suddenly this, I remember when we did that, I remember Johnny, when we had, you remember when we did the strings for OK Computer? Yeah.
And those players were the grumpiest players we've ever had. For sure.
Remember that? You were sweating. Yeah.
Because they were like, they just took one look at what you wrote and they were like, oh, God. I remember that.
Yeah, I do remember. Really? The orchestra librarian warned me and he said, don't try and engage their enthusiasm because they don't have any.

Wait, Johnny, was that when you started getting into thinking about scoring yourself?

You both scored.

And Tommy, it's a spire.

I can't read music.

This guy's the man who does it.

I'm pure amateur.

Johnny?

I mean, it's just that thing that when we were at school we listened to all this kind of music and we weren't old enough to be scared of trying it and thinking yeah well we could do that you know so the same way we'd listen to a smith song and think well let's try and do that kind of thing but then you'd listen to other people's music even classical stuff, and it all felt like, why be scared of being overambitious and just trying to... But also, I don't think...
We never really saw the difference in the same way other people do. Do you feel less scared now, though? I was going to say, do you feel...
You know, that's one of the great things about youth, right? You're like, well, fuck, why not me? I can, why don't I try it? And then as you get older, you start to know,

I don't know, I can kind of go both ways on this.

Like, do I know my limitations or I also don't care?

I think the other trouble is you start to recognize people who are doing in that music or perhaps acting or whatever

in that style that you aspire to.

And once you know how to sort of do it,

you get to recognize people who can really do it and are amazing at it. And's that's the moment where you kind of you retreat a little bit and think yeah this is so way beyond anything i could have but you know it just it just means you're kind of you know you're you're aiming and missing but it's it's fun to aim right but the task is different there right with scoring a film i mean you're being asked to you're you're looking at picture um for the part, I don't know if you guys did it the same way or how you work with, with Paul, but, um, you're look for the most part, you're looking at picture and you're being asked to either support frame or juxtapose what the image is, what the story is, what the scene is about.
Um, and you're, you're there in support of, um, effectively that as opposed to making a song or record it's it's a standalone piece of entertainment um so is it do you enjoy the difference in that in that process i just treat it as being in a band still just with you know a director and a script and a and a cinematographer um and you're sort of, you're just one part of it.

And again, it's like we talked about earlier,

you hope that it's going to add up to a better thing

and it's going to make the film better

and the film will make the music better than it is

and it'll just combine into something that's an improvement.

But also, I think the best film music

is where there's a bit of a stretch between the two.

I mean, it's very easy to do film music that's prescriptive, that's reacting to what you're seeing on the screen, but I hate that. It drives me mad.
It makes no sense to me. I mean, if you're two actors standing opposite each other on stage and one person is just imitating the movements of another or echoing them, there's no point in that.
You should be bouncing it off. and also what i find very interesting in my limited experience is the fact that the viewer will make connections that you don't necessarily intend so that you oftentimes like something that could feel a bit of a stretch stylistically when you put it in a scene can be so much more powerful than somebody that's reacting to the scene.

That's funny.

That reminds me of going to your house

when you were at college in Exeter.

And there was that thing of,

the craze was for some reason,

the TV was on the whole time with the sound down.

And there were records going on all the time.

And just the juxtaposition of almost any image and any music just did does something and often often does a great thing so that's when i started getting into video editing um i'd moved in the art college i'd moved to doing video and discovered that you can cut anything to anything and and completely change the meaning of it yeah yeah i discovered video editing can be like cutting sound in the sense that you can just your mind will look for connections when they're not there you know uh it's funny you say that i have a follow-up will if this isn't a follow-up it is it is a follow-up hey man i know that you're a guest but give everybody else a second eager don't load don't let me choke the puppy yeah thank you don't choke the so i was watching that danish show mentioned, The Killing Last Night, which, by the way, can I just say this? It's a thing edited out, isn't it? Yeah, yeah. Can I just say this? I thought, like, oh, it's 12 episodes.
Great. So I got, I was like, the last episode.
I stayed up late. Oh, walk us through your night.
This is great. My girlfriend fell asleep.
The kids were asleep. It was great.
And then it ended, and I looked up, and I said, no, no, no, there are 20 episodes. So I stayed up.
Yeah, anyway. But my point was, my point was, I watched this scene and the score came in.
And by the way, the music's actually really good in it, but there was a very, this happened last night. This moment comes up and this character comes in and she's about to reveal something and the music comes in and it was totally wrong.
It was the first time in a long time

where I felt like it was completely so...

And then the scene ended,

and I thought,

what the fuck was that?

Did somebody, like,

leave a stem?

How many people that went through

that didn't catch that?

It was so bizarre.

Yeah.

And how important it is

to taking you through,

emotionally through the scene,

and where it leaves you

for the next scene, etc.

It was... Yeah, it's make or break.
How did you guys meet Paul Thomas Anderson? Did you reach out to him? Did he reach out to you? Did you guys bump into each other? I mean, that's just... It was a long time ago.
Johnny, can you remember? I think we were recording Hell to the Thief in Los Angeles. And he invited us to the cast and crew screening of Punch Truck Love.
Partly because he'd taken the title from one of Tom's songs. Oh, really? I didn't realize that until we got to the screening.
Oh, really? Wow. Wait a minute.
And that was great. And then he came to the studio and was sort of, I mean, can I say hanging out in an English accent without sounding awful? British accent.

Do you want to wear a baseball cap as well just to complete it?

No, no.

Nothing worse than an Englishman in a baseball cap.

Even hanging out has made me literally sweat. I know.

I was going to say, I don't think we've had anyone hang out in our studio

except for Paul for about 20 years.

Although it has to be noted that the English,

the use of the term chill or chill out is exhausting. It's the worst.
Mate, just going to chill out for the weekend. Johnny, was it pulling teeth for him to get you to score a film? Well, I mean, he just, so he took a fan bootleg of this classical thing I'd written and just put it up to the picture and liked it and said can you do more music like this and i didn't really know about him or about films or you know it was just like an excuse to have an orchestra to play with and and that was that was the biggest kick still is you know it's amazing he came up to in a hotel around then i'm in london i ran into him i said I'm gonna steal your friend for a bit he said he hasn't let him go yeah it's very abusive it's a crazy but I get that you know I did this show for Netflix and I was like I really wanted for years I wanted to do something with Steve Malcomus from Pavement I was like how do I so I wrote this show and we quite literally wrote all these scenes knowing that I didn't even know what the music was yet, but I knew that Steve was going to, and then I got to call him and meet him and go, would you, you know, you just, it was that thing of like, I just had to have, and I'm sure Paul had the same thing, which is like, I was so inspired by his music and it was played such a huge role in how we wrote the stuff we were doing.
It was, you know, it wasn't the impetus for it, but it was, it was massive. And then marrying his music with what we were doing and having, sending him all the cuts and then coming back was such a magical experience for me because it just completed.
I was like, oh yeah, it completed exactly the way that I wanted it to. Even though the music was new to me, I was like, yes, every time, yes, exactly.
Malcolmus is amazing. He's genuinely one of the few artists whose records I actively look forward to.
Another Jixx record coming out, then I get excited. And I know it's going to probably be quite sort of

great guitar player, wonderful guitar player.

Like the one guitarist I can

listen to and just think, that's just amazing.

Still an amazing instrument.

Yeah, agreed.

There's these really popular docs now. The Beatles doc

that everybody's been talking about and watching.

I watched the Bee Gees one.

I was never a huge fan, but I thought the documentary was just incredible. Nobody's talking about it.
Thank you. No, they are, actually.
Do you guys, for fans like me and us, what do you think of them? Would you ever do one? Because that would be so fascinating. Unless you've already done one, I'm an idiot and I don't know.
There's a great documentary of them on the OK Computer Tour. Oh.
Yeah. It's the documentary to end all documentaries in the sense that like, clearly these people are never going to have a camera shoved in their face again.
I never saw that. I didn't know that.
It's very sort of asymmetric and perfect and it's really cool to watch. Oh, great, great, great.
Don't say atypical.

If you say atypical,

I'm going to fucking kill myself.

It actually started off as a sort of

quite a positive idea.

And it was,

hey, let's show people what it's like from the inside.

And then it just,

it was really full on.

Like, it wasn't as if,

you just assume you'd forget about their presence.

Right.

At some point, you'd forget,

but you never did.

They tried to hide them, you could tell.

Did you think at that point, did you think or did you hope that you would still be together now at 50? Like, is this good news that you guys are still doing it? Are you loving it as much now as you did then? More? Less? I mean the same things make us excited which is technology and sounds and learning new stuff so yeah I don't know I think while the ideas are still you know there it's all I wanted to do so it just feels like I don't understand yeah never really what record do you guys fuck I hate this question but I kind of want to know great hold it for a second I don't get the sense that you guys are I don't get the sense that you guys are pressured by having to be new every single album new sounds and all stuff. Did that sort of healthy level of indifference happen early on and you guys were able to just kind of continue to make new sounds that sound good to you? And hopefully the audience will dig it.
And as a result of that sort of healthy indifference... And would you characterize that indifference as sexy? It's not sexy indifference.
It a healthy indifference. Okay.
Yeah. So to be honest, we like just challenges.
I like challenges. I like trying to find a different way to write lyrics.
I like to find different ways to assemble music. I like to learn new instruments exactly like Johnny.
And it wakes me up in the morning and probably always will unless I lose my ability to think straight because there isn't anything else. There's not like, now we must move into this area like some sort of aesthetic agenda.
It's like your influence about what you're listening to, I'm always buying new music, I'm always doing that and I'm always, as you can see from the room I'm sitting in, I'm constantly buying things and trying to learn how to use them. You look like you're in a 70s, like Soviet 70s era, like space command, which is great.
I went on this retreat once that there's this woman talking about where ideas come from and creativity. And she asked a big group of people, where do you come up with your ideas? And a lot of people are like in the shower, in the car, you know, with my kids or whatever.
But nobody said in the office. And so do you guys, where they work, where they actually are supposed to come up with great ideas.
Do you guys get a lot of your, when you're in your studio, is that kind of like, does it feel like a dark hole that's like hard to create or does it influence creativity? Different ideas for different things. Like for me, I end up generating a lot of material and Johnny sends me material and then I assemble it all and listen to it in the car.
That's a way I find of getting a really good perspective on whatever it is. So things sort of go in stages.
You work on something, you say to yourself, I've no idea what this is, or Johnny will send me something, says, what do we do with this? And they just arrive on shuffle for a few weeks and then I can sort of see the next stage okay maybe this and then with lyrics it's something completely different where um it'll either be just very quick very easy or months and months of chipping away literally line by line and the sort of most painstakingly weird anal kind of trying things throwing them out trying things throwing them out trying things throwing them out and and to the point like where sometimes it's just well i've got this syllable and i've got this consonant i've got this syllable and now i'm just going to wait for the rest to turn up all right do you ever do you ever have anybody else tom in like is there somebody in your life like your wife or your kids, do you ever play music in the car with your kids and look and see how they react? Does that ever happen? Do they think you're as cool as the rest of the world? No. Yeah, yeah.
They do? Oh, go ahead. What about you, Johnny? Do you get feedback off yours? I mean, I know you do.
Well, I remember being really anxious that one of my sons wasn't really listening to much music and didn't seem to like music.

And then this was when he was like sort of 12, 11 or something.

And then he suddenly said, I found something I really like.

And it's this artist called Leibrak.

And I thought, Leibrak, yeah, that's a German techno guy.

I'm sure I've heard of Leibrak.

And he said, but I listen to it all the time.

And I thought, finally, he's got some, you know, exciting, cool taste.

And he gave me his phone and it was Liberace I think I dropped my phone that might have been me I was kind of that's amazing I was totally thrilled I had the same thing my son who's now 13 but when he was about 11 and I didn't know and then I went into his room and we'd given him an old record player and he he had the double record of Stop Making Sense, Talking Heads, the live record. And he was playing it on his own volition that he'd found from mine.
And I was like, oh, great. And I'll just leave him be.
You know what I mean? Let him enjoy it. And that's a kind of an exciting moment.
But do you, do you have those people in your life who are not like Tom, who's not Johnny and Johnny, who's not Tom, that you listen to the music on your own and they go like, yeah, that's great. My son is a musician as well and he's studying music and when he comes home, he comes and sits in the studio and starts giving me advice, which I love.
He's 21, which is brilliant. I mean, we literally just talk about music.
He comes home, we talk about music and instruments,

then he says, right, I'm back to college, and that's it.

So that's very odd for me.

How great.

And my daughter comes in and just, well, it's a smile or a scowl,

you know, is what I'll get.

I've got one of those.

And my wife as well.

My wife is like, she'll fixate on a particular song,

which is great, you know, and she'll see stuff in it

because she's Italian as well.

She's not coming to it from a lyrical point of view necessarily straight away.

You guys should know that last week,

and I had no idea that you were going to be on the show,

but last, four days ago, in the car with my 19-month-old son

playing OK Computer.

Yeah.

And just watching his reaction.

I tilted the rear view so I could watch him in,

because he's in the baby seat,

so I could see him and see his reaction to it.

It was fucking great, man.

Great.

He was tapping along.

Yeah.

I remember my son Noah was obsessed with Autobahn when we were kids. Really? Autobahn, all the time.
Meep, meep. He'd say, meep, meep, when he was like one and a half or whatever.
Meep, meep. Okay.
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You've had so many great songs, but aren't you kind of amazed at how many times Creep has been reimagined and reinterpreted? I remember hearing this choir one a long, long time ago. Yeah, that was a trailer for Social Network.
That was amazing. Oh, is that what it is? Yeah.
But I've also heard so many other ones. There's got to be thousands of them.
There was one that my friend of mine, Jun Takahashi, he's a fashion designer, he said, do you have any old versions of Creep that are a bit longer? And I'm like, mate, of course not. So I sent him one that was just basically, he wanted it to be 10 minutes long, so I stretched.
I just stretched it for 10 minutes. And it sounded wicked, so that's my favorite version.
What did he want it for, just for his Walkman. For his Walk thing, you know.
All these people dressed with space gear on. It was wicked.
Getting back to your kids, do they ask you to get them tickets sometimes to concerts?

And if so, what was the last one?

Because I've got a 15-year-old daughter and a 10-year-old daughter,

and I'm not really thrilled with the kind of music that they make me listen to.

Are their musical tastes in line with yours for the most part?

Well, my son doesn't like anything with guitars or drums or anything like that.

So he'll just listen to kind of classical stuff.

I've no idea why.

It's a great thing. Well, my son doesn't like anything with guitars or drums or anything like that.
So he'll just listen to kind of classical stuff. I've no idea why.
Is it though? Yeah. Well, you're talking to a guy who listens to classical music.
Thank you, Johnny. Is it though? I mean.
I literally listen to Beethoven, Mozart, and Radiohead. That's it.
But surely you have to have a kind of angry, you know, never mind the bollocks phase of music. I studied classical music for 20 years.
I'm a pianist. And I always thought it was funny when people put on classical music in the background as a soothing kind of thing.
But it will be like, ba-ba-ba-ba. And they won't know that that back then was like, no, that was hard rock back then.
Yeah. It's not supposed to be in the background while you're cleaning your house.

But I thought that was really funny.

All right, well, listen, you guys,

I am just so thankful that you guys said yes to do this.

Being respectful of your time,

thank you for giving us some weird... It's been totally fun.

I do worry that it's been overly earnest

as things often are with us, you know. No, no.
Yeah, you know. Oh, wait, wait.
Well, Johnny, say something controversial. That would be, I mean, really helpful.
Yeah, let's be idiots for a sec. What's your guilty pleasure right now? What are the non-earnest things that you guys are doing? Are you watching some bad reality television? Have you seen The Killing? Have you seen The Killing? Have you seen Boba Fett? What would you be most embarrassed to tell us about right now? I'm very good at Wordle.
Oh, that's the new thing. What's that? Wordle.
Is that an app? Is that a game? Yeah, Word Games. I love Word Games.
Really? Love Word Games and crosswords. He does.
That's an app I can get? No, it's a website.

One personal a day.

The guy's not monetizing it at all.

It's amazing.

I do that too.

Yeah.

That's an app I can get?

Hey, why don't you just say I'm old?

That's a lot quicker.

I truly am.

Tom, what are you killing your brain with lately?

What am I killing my brain with? You mean in terms of entertainment? Yeah. We are currently consuming some, do you know a TV series called Leftovers? The Leftovers.
Oh God, yes. Oh God, do we ever.
Justin Theroux. I'm getting sucked into that.
That show's fantastic. And how great is that music from Max Richter?

Is it Max Richter?

Yeah.

Max Richter.

Jason, I didn't know you know him.

He's great, isn't he?

He's genius.

I love him.

It's a beautiful show.

Tom, if you're watching that right now,

Justin is a friend of the show, sadly.

And so you can just say hi to him right now.

He's listening because he's always hoping for a mention.

Is he?

Yeah, yeah.

He's got a mention.

It's pretty wicked, got to say. But that was a nice offset to what I watched before, which was Downton Abbey, so don't tell anyone that.
I watched all of them. I loved it.
I don't think I want to know the answer to this question, but I have to ask it. Do you have any idea that I've used two Radiohead songs in Ozark? Yes.
I was like, that was such a shock. I had no idea it was coming.
You guys don't approve that stuff, right? I saw the emails. Wait, did you? Okay, yeah, you guys don't approve that.
Skim read it. It was the greatest day of my life when you guys said yes the first time and then when I heard yes the second time.
No, listen, I had no idea that was coming on and I was watching that episode and suddenly it's like, I know this. And Dex Dark comes on.
No, what it made me think, what it made me think is it made me really like that episode and suddenly it's like i know this deck start comes on no what it made me think what it made me think is it made me really like that song and think oh that is you know what it is good we struggled with that song a lot yeah so it was nice you didn't like deck star jason you use the song that they hate the most no no no no we just wanted to do it again what we worry about is is if we recorded it well enough and it was hearing it in the context of that drama and thinking, oh, this sounds amazing. It does sound amazing.
Oh, my God, what a great thing to hear. It just takes your focus off the recording.
You're not looking at speakers. You're actually looking at something else.
Sometimes it's nice when a record finds a place like that rather than the middle of an album where it's got to compete with other things. When it gets isolated and thrown on telly in the middle of a scene, in the middle of something that's happening that you remember visually, it's great.
Oh, man, it stands on its own just fine. You haven't heard Daily Mail in the second season, have you? We put it in a great spot in that too.
It's just your music pluses anything. Jason has been a huge fan of, we all have, but Jason is a very vocal fan of yours and he's been pushing your stuff like a street dealer for as long as I've known him, which is 20 years.
And this is a huge thrill. I can say this for him, it's a huge thrill that you guys said yes to this.
And it's a thrill for all of us. Very cool of you guys.
We're so inspiring and inspired by what you guys do. It's incredible.
Thank you so much. And, but you guys did come off as a little earnest.
So what I want to... We'll do some pickups.
We'll do some pickups. You're the one who said that.
I know, I know. You're sounding really earnest.
I know. And I just want to buy it back.
I want to buy it back. What's your favorite? Okay, this is what I was going to say before.
So this is how we can buy it back. Do you have a song or do you have a record of yours that you like the most? Just say it if it's true.
That's a Sean Hayes question for Christ's sake. No, Tom won't say it.
Tom's shaking his head. Ask them what their favorite color is after.
I know. I'll do that one.
I'll do that after this. Prussian blue.
Prussian blue. Ask them which one they hate the most.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, Dex Dark is their least favorite song.
No, by no means. No, no, no.
Oh, no, no. Now, do least favorite songs become B-sides? Is that what B-sides are? No, I think it's just that you're sick sick of the whole album when you release it and you can't bear to look at it or listen to it and think maybe maybe it's all terrible and that was the moment of like oh this sounds great but then but then you got to go tour it how do you is that why you guys or you guys or bands tend to change things a little bit when it's live well you know what it's okay so you're say you're rehearsing for a theater performance right yeah you get to the you do the address rehearsal you get to the dress rehearsal and all you can see is the holes in everything you're doing and the gaps and the fact that no one's gonna get it and blah blah blah and then you go and stand in front of people and it comes to life it's the same you finish your record you think oh god or you feel like you're standing there with your pants down and then you go out and play it in front of people and then it's a way of getting back to why you did it in the first place it's great and i'm sounding really earnest again so the way you said that tom the way you said that you reminded you went holes it reminded you know that the beginning of what is it is itoles.
As in Holes. As in Holes, yeah.
It's Andy Warhol, isn't it? Yeah, Andy Warhol. God, the way you said that, just, that was weird.
Okay, sorry. I was obsessed with that record.
Same, same, same. Obsessed when I was like 12 years old.
Absolutely obsessed with that record. Same, same.
Hunky-dories. Especially the photograph on the back, you know, with all this handwritten thing, like the way he'd scroll.
Yes, yes, yes. The photo of him standing there with these enormous pants on and the long hair's like, oh, man, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen.
And who did that great strumming? Who played that guitar on that record? It was so... Well, I think he did the acoustic, didn't he? And the others was...
But he had... No, he had somebody else on that.
It's so luscious. There's something about the way he plays that acoustic guitar, if it's him, on that record.
God. Which album is this? Hunky Dory.
Hunky Dory. Oh, yeah.
So incredible. You ready? Yeah.
Dung, da-dung, da-dung, da-dun-da-dun-da-dun. Sorry.
No, keep going. No, I know.
Yeah, please. I know, I'm boring these guys.
Yeah, go on. No, I don't know.
Give me some more. Thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you. You guys are the best.
You were not earnest at all. You were an absolute dream.
You were very polite to indulge us with my earnest questions. I had some legitimate fan questions about the band so thank you for that and your process and all that.

It's been nice talking to you guys.

We'll get stupid next time.

We'll do a part two.

Yeah, the other way around.

Okay. Thank you guys.
Enjoy the rest

of your day. Thanks you guys.
Nice to

meet you. Thank you Jason.
Lovely to meet you.

Nice to meet you. Bye guys.
Thank you.

Take care.

Bye guys. You can just slam your laptops now.
Did that really happen? I don't think it did. Hope, did it? How was I? You were terrible.
Can I just say this? I know. Can I just say this? I want to be honest, and I'm going to speak for the audience.
It was cute because you were super into it. But you were such a bully about asking questions.
Well, you wouldn't fucking let me. I got 25.
These are my heroes. You never took your foot off the gas.
You never took your foot. Sean, am I right? I thought everybody did a wonderful job.
Sean, you know what? No, Jason, I'm giving you a hard time. You were great.
I know you love them so much. And that's why I had to tell them, because I knew that you couldn't even really say it in the way you wanted to.
Well, it's hard when it's your guests and you really, really like them. I know.
I know it's hard. They're great.
I did some prep for this. I was up two hours ago writing questions.
I only got to half of them. Wow.
Well, we'll have them back on. Yeah.
But my God, I still can't really understand what they're doing here. I know.
Do you think they saw you in Promises, Promises, Sean? Do you think that's what it was? They must have heard of Reese's commercial. It must be.
How about my question about the doc? And I'm like, what you guys ever do it? They did one and I was so embarrassed.

I know.

I was wondering about correcting you on that,

but then I thought, well, it would be rude if I didn't know that.

Right, right.

You're allowed to not know it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Because they're not your guest.

For sure.

You know who's a huge Radiohead fan is Bradley.

Cooper Bradley.

I remember when Kid A, he was like, he couldn't stop talking about it. Dude, dude, dude, dude, Radiohead, dude.
Dude, Radiohead. You know how he gets like super into it.
I don't know how they keep making every song, every album totally different than the last one. No, it's incredible.
Super challenging and it ends up being even better than the last album. You know what's wild, too? I think the personalities that we've had musicians on the show before,

they all seem very kind of docile in interviews and very kind of quiet.

And then you get on stage, and they're like running around,

crazy singing, jumping, screaming their heads off.

They're just so effusive and come out of their bodies when they're performing.

But that's their space.

Musicians, they didn't sign up for like doing interviews and on camera stuff and all that you know it's like like athletes you know they're running around like crazy on the field but you put a camera in front of them and you know that's not their natural spot and so i think they're appropriately reserved yeah i just think it's interesting i've always loved this lyric of theirs which is i'm is, I'm reading it, obviously, but it's her green plastic watering can for her fake Chinese rubber plant in the fake plastic earth that she bought from a rubber man in a town full of rubber plants to get rid of itself. And I just want to say...
How does he come up with that? And I want to say, man, take a knee. Okay.
Because you've written something crazy and you've written something really at the same time, simultaneously really, I think it's profound. I think.
Well, that was one of the things I wanted to ask him when he was talking about lyrics. Mind-blowing.
But I didn't want to embarrass him and prompt him into giving an earnest answer.

But how do you grind and make such great lyrics, such sort of, you know, off-center and then not articulate them in the song or on stage such that people can hear them verbatim and appreciate their specificity? You know, like people who write poetry, they really love that they're writing poetry and you can read it and know exactly what they said. Oftentimes, lyrics, you can't understand what the singer is saying.
But poetry, that medium, that's what is sort of incumbent upon the writer to that's how you express it, through those words. The words need to be heard in that way.
With a song, it's not necessarily about the words at all. As we know, lots of have no words right but but in his case he's clearly taking care to to really craft each word you you you you buy the album and you read the lyrics yeah and that's part of the discovery we're like i always think to you know it's kind of like we were saying when we had david burn on about like what is that what did that mean to you you know because those lyrics meant so much to so many people he's like oh i was just to imitate, remember, the AM radio meant nothing to me.
So I'm sure, I don't know, but you could I would imagine, I wish we'd asked them if, you know, if all of us could have had a question in there other than Jason, I would have said to him, he probably would have said, yeah, the words mean something to me, but if you interpret it a different way, that's great too. I love that part of we don't need to boil it all down to what does this mean, what is this, black and white, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It's just kind of open to interpretation. I felt badly bringing up the song Creep, but it's like, yeah, it's a gigantic, massive historical song now.
Yeah, he did feel badly, But I remember he was saying his friend asked for it

and he sent him this like...

But just like any band

with like their big hit back then,

they probably...

You're going to be asked about

Ozark the rest of your life.

I mean, you're going to be asked

about Will and Grace.

You're going to be asked about

Rust Development, both of you.

You know, I mean,

everybody gets asked about

that one big thing.

Right.

They just probably hate

playing it live, I'll bet.

I bet.

Yeah, I wonder if they do, though. Again, it would have been nice to have

had their

ability

to have

had their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to

have their

ability to have their ability to have been nice to have had the opportunity to interview Radiohead at some point. Guys, I've been nervous about this for six weeks.
Wow. Okay? It's been hard for me not to mention it to either one of you.
Yeah. Oh, God.
I'm so glad it's over. They're one of the greats.
They'll go down in history as one of the greatest bands.

They were cool guys.

And obviously, you know, they're...

I know you hate when I use the term artist,

but God, these guys are...

They're real artists.

And listen, it's sort of asymmetric and atypical.

Atypical.

You buried that word today.

Atypical, too.

They're going to be...

They're clowning you right now in a text chain. I was nervous.
I'm sure they are. They are clowning you.
They're like, mate, did you hear this fucking joke? They think we're the biggest idiotic American wankers of all time. Guaranteed right now.
They're like, who the fuck made us go and get interviewed by these American wankers? I know. By the way, have you seen the new American Wankers? It's so good.
It's on AMC. Oh, it's so good.
They have the big come to Jesus moment. It's about an orgy in a church.
Wait, what? Yeah. American Wankers.
But I'm starting to think about a bye. Do you guys have a good one? I have the word alibi, but I don't know how to do that.
Oh, well, that's the thing in The Killing.

I watched that show.

The Danish one?

The Danish show, and I'm at the part right now where the guy,

they thought he did it, but it turned out he had a really good alibi.

Alibi!

Bye!

Bye, guys!

Smart.

Blast.

And now, listener, you're welcome.

What we've done is we've created an ear baby.

We have Mated, Smartless, and Radiohead.

And our little bouncing baby boy song is about to enter your ears,

courtesy of our doula, Rob Armyar. This show is the smart list.
Smart. This show.
Smart.

Smart.

Smart.

Welcome. Welcome.

Welcome.

Okay.

Welcome.

Okay.

Welcome to SmartLand.

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Welcome.

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