“Sean Penn”

HBO's biggest series, The Last of Us, returns with a new season on Max. Starring Pedro Pascal and Bella Ramsey, the show picks up five years after the events of the first season as Joel and Ellie are drawn into conflict with each other and a world even more dangerous and unpredictable than the one they left behind.
CNN calls The Last of Us exquisite, fully realized, and worthy of the hype. And The Daily Beast calls it a riveting and suspenseful triumph.
Based on the groundbreaking video game, the Emmy-winning HBO original series, The Last of Us, premieres Sunday, April 13th, 9 p.m. on Max.
Now find island-inspired, limited-time flavors at Whole Foods Market for the Explore the Tropic Sales event. Enjoy pre-marinated mains like mango coconut salmon and pineapple teriyaki chicken, and them with seasoned ready-to-heat beans from a dozen cousins.
Need dinner in a snap? Grab zesty lime shrimp salad, mango turkey burgers, and more from prepared foods. And of course, there's the mango yuzu chantilly cake.
Explore the tropics and save at Whole Foods Market in-store and online. Last year, Americans ate

32 billion chicken wings. and save at Whole Foods Market in-store and online.

Last year, Americans ate 32 billion chicken wings.

Who knows just how many helpless sides of celery were heartlessly thrown away.

But this year, celery neglect stops with you and irresistible Jif peanut butter because every bite counts and you can make a snack to make a difference. You can buy a jar of Jif to save the celery.
Oh, listener, welcome to our show. It's called Smartless, and it's going to be incredible.

Oh, settle in.

The stuff we've got for you today.

Oh, man, cinch your Speedo, because we're really going to get going on this one.

Yeah.

Oh, man.

Welcome to Smartless.

Smartless.

Smartless. Smart.
Smart. Smart.
Hi, everybody. Oh, so I am in a remote location.
Will is in a remote location. Sean.
Still at home. You look like you're in a different in the castle No, I just have the door open Because the dog is laying down behind me He's been kind of slow today Gassy? Oh, geez, walk us through it I mean, what a story But why are you leaving the door open for a slow dog? Because you can't see him He's on the floor Because it takes him a while to get through Because he's slow I don't know.
I just want him to let him know he's not alone. Huh.
Bless your heart. What do you do for Scotty? You also leave a door open for Scotty? No.
But you know what? What if you pan your camera down and Scotty was laying next to the dog on the floor? No, but we got in a little tiff today because he, rightfully so, he is correct.

I interrupt him too much is what we argued about.

Sure.

Do you guys get that a lot?

No, because I know what he's going to say,

so I'm just like, and I finished the sentence.

And he's like, can you just let me finish what my thought was?

Can I tell you something?

Yeah.

I got to say I'm with Scotty on this.

This has been a pet peeve of mine for a while. I have certain people who are close to me.
I'm not gonna name them, but I grew up with them and we're related. And they go, you go like, oh man, so the other day I was coming down the street.
No, I was coming down the canyon and I was noticing that it was sunny. And you're like, oh, do you just wanna guess what I'm gonna say? or do you want me to say it? Yeah, I know, it's a thing.
That drives me fucking mental. It makes you feel like people just want you to get on with it, right? My wife does the same thing to me.
No, your wife, I get it. I'm sorry if I'm boring you.
That's exactly what Scotty said. Jason, I get it.
With you, it is that you're boring her, and I get it. She's not wrong, because you're a little bit slow and too deliberate sometimes.
It's a good note. With me, it's not that.
You see, I'm able to see. I know.
No, I was listening to what the Tony Hawk episode today. And I'm like, Jesus, Jason.
You know, I talk to myself in third person when I'm in the car. Okay.
Jason, get on with the question. Like the listener and the questionnaire, questioner? Questionnaire.
Subject. Interviewee.
They get it. Oh, God, this is fun.
Just go ahead and just chop it off and let them talk. Yeah, no, but sometimes you have to relate before you ask the question.
You did have a long question. You did have a really long question from Tony Hawk that was fucking crazy.
I always do, though. Maybe I just like to hear myself.
I kind of don't mind it because you have to give the question context. So sometimes it takes a second, right? But that's just it.
You don't have to. When you're listening to it, you're like, I get it.
Or I'm ahead of you. Shut up.
Well, my questions are like, what's your favorite color and stuff like that. So I guess they just kind of stand alone.
Yeah, no, your questions. It's a whole different thing with you.
After this session, we're going to have a real sit down. Okay? Broadway stories.
Just stay on your Zoom. By the way, the Tony Hawk episode, I listened to it as well the other day, and I got burned on the Broadway question when I said I made fun, and then he was like, I am doing a Broadway show.
I know. How about that, Tony Hawk? That's true.
I know. Tony Hawk's doing a Broadway show.
God, we're all so dumb. I haven't finished the episode yet.
How does it end? We all died. Yeah, we all died.
We all died. We did? Yeah, spoiler alert.
And the butler did it oh oh but here's the good news we have a butler hey listen um i want to get to our guest because our guest is a is a very busy person i i'm so to say i'm thrilled is is the like the understatement of the century i'm so excited to have uh this guy on our program uh He is a... The Prime Minister of Canada.

An incredible artist,

an incredible activist

who, this isn't one of these things

where, like, activists for 10 minutes and then, like,

good, everybody notice, and so, like, I'm back to

doing what I do. This is a person who's

not just talking

the talk, but walking the walk, and it's really

fucking admirable and incredible,

especially in a time that's so complicated

and so many issues are

pressing in so many real fucking ways.

is talking the talk, but walking the walk. And it's really fucking admirable and incredible, especially in a time that's so complicated and so many issues are pressing in so many real fucking ways.
This is a boots on the ground activist. This is a fucking artist who shares with you, Jason, something that not a lot of people know, that you both basically got your start on Little House on the Prairie.
Is this Andy Dick? No, this person is a five-time Academy Award nominee and two-time Academy Award winner for Best Actor. I just got to get right to it.
This is Sean Penn. Oh, my God.
There he is. Sean Penn.
Hi, fellas. You started on Little House on the Prairie? Come on.
It was a summer job as an extra, yeah. Incredible.
Oh, wow. That's so cool.
Were you sitting on a folding chair and holding the whole time? You know, it's funny you ask that because the principal memory I have was when they broke for lunch. They said, we just need to get first team through.
Well, I didn't feel it was proper to go to an organized lunch that wasn't within the time period. So I stayed out in the sun in Cibi Valley.
And as soon as they got back and were ready to shoot, I fell down from sun exhaustion. Oh, I thought you were going to say that you went in and you churned your own butter.
Sean, I just said this today. I was sitting on the couch with my husband, Scotty.
Your trailer was playing for your new movie called? Flag Day. Flag Day.
Flag Day. Flag Day.
And I said- One of the greatest scripts I've ever read in my life. I said, that movie looks amazing.
There's nothing this guy can't do. It already looks incredible.
Your performance just from the trailer is incredible. So it's so bizarre that you're sitting here right now.
It was just an hour ago. I was like, that guy's amazing.
I was going to get to Flag Day later, but Sean, get right into Flag Day. Let's talk about it, man.
No, I'm serious. I just did.
It looks incredible. I know nothing about that story.
I know nothing about any I just literally just an hour ago said, that movie looks amazing. I will see that.
That's great to hear. Yeah, it was a script that came to me many years ago based on Jennifer Vogel's memoir, Flim Flam Man.
It's a father-daughter story, which is led really by the daughter who plays Jennifer Vogel and played by my daughter, Dylan Penn. Yeah, that's so cool.
Who really had done little parts and things here and there over the years. She was reluctant to try to pull this one off and then just stepped into it as a truth machine and gave us something magic.
So it's a movie I've got several reasons to be excited about. My son is also in it, Opera Jack.
That's cool. Did you try a long time to work with them? Did it take a lot of convincing? It was, in particular with my daughter, she was of the school of thought as a teenager that the work that her parents did was absolutely silly, dressing up, adults dressing up and playing other people.
And it took her time to acquire a respect for the work and for the people who do it in that sense. And so yet she had always been interested in being behind the camera, to be in the film industry.
And so I would go to Dylan every couple of years when this script would appear, when Flag Day would appear, because by appear I mean the journey it goes on. You can't get the actress you want.
In this case, her face was imprinted on that role to me. And so you have to tell those producers, you guys should go on your way and find somebody else to do this.
And then it fortunately came back around at a point where she felt she had lived enough life to invest in understanding it. And had spent enough time on sets to kind of get her sea legs in that sense.
And then she just came out and rocked it. So it was a long time because she was very reluctant about it.
Yeah. How does she does she gain the respect for what what you and Robin do? Did it take her just trying it and going, oh, wow, this is this feels different than what I thought.
I think it was more or less that there's an irreverence that children have for parents who aren't doctors. So you'll get it.
Which I understand, of course. And so it's sort of an exaggerated reaction for a time.
But then as she started to be moved by the work that people do on both sides of the camera in movies and provoked by it and where she was being hit by it as she perhaps at a younger age was being hit by paintings or music, then it just developed into a more mature sense of it and a more mature embrace of it. What was your relationship to, like, did you identify with that? Because of course you grew up and your dad was a filmmaker.
So what was that like for you to have, to have your own kid who had a different relationship to the arts and like you got into it so young and then she kind of went a different path? Well, I, I mean, the, the age I really got into it was, uh, when I graduated high school late in my 17th year. Uh, but we, you know, when I, when we mentioned Little House on the Prairie, that was virtually just to put a couple of pennies in my pocket as a, as an extra.
There was no, I didn't have any sense that though my parents were involved in theater and film, I had no sense that that's the direction that I'd be going. I was spending my time in high school reading the books of F.
Lee Bailey about his cases and wanting to be a lawyer, a criminal defense attorney. Wow.
Then in senior year, I started getting involved with my younger brother and a group of friends who had gotten a hold of Super 8 camera with a magnetic sound strip on it so that you could actually make talkies. And so we started making those.
And because we were shooting an awful lot at night when other kids were doing homework and you couldn't get them to come out and be your actors, I would be directing those movies and acting in them. And at a certain point, I felt so invested in film, but I didn't know what know what the outlet would be I knew that to direct you need somebody to entrust millions of dollars on your back so I went into a repertory company as an actor and very quickly became impassioned about that and and then working in class and so on and the next thing I knew I was was working in the theater regularly.
And then from that into film. And after about 10 years of that, 11 years of that, I finally got to do what I started out with the intention to do at stage 17, which was to direct my first film.
That's so cool. I just watched the Val Kilmer documentary.
I don't know if you've seen that. Yes, I have seen it.
Yeah. It's really, really great.
And, uh, he's just seems like such a great guy, such a trooper, but, um, but there's footage of you backstage in New York and some, you're all so young and it was this mind blowing, you know, cause a lot of people think, oh, you just come out of the womb and all of a sudden you're a movie star.

But, you know, people have no context about what it takes to achieve what you've achieved. And to see that footage of you just as a kid, and I don't know what the play was, but it was so cool to see, A, that he had that footage, and then, B, to see that you all were just hanging out like regular people backstage.
It was super cool. Yeah, I remembered that Val had this video camera, which was, I think, a fairly novel thing at that time.
Yeah, you were like, is that a video camera? Wow. You were blown away by that.
Yeah, and he was... Sorry, Tracy in Wisconsin, a video camera.
Do they know what that is in Wisconsin, dude? No, maybe. I don't know.
It's good that you pointed it out. It was pretty sci-fi to me, and he was consistent with it.
And boy, yes, as Sean said, I mean, what an extraordinarily creative kind of magical guy he developed into over time. Yeah, it's really a film people should see.
It's sensational. Yeah, really cool.
You know what's funny, Sean, is that you started, not you, Hayes. Sure, no.
I'm going to call you Hayes for the rest of the show, Sean. Sure, that's fine.
That makes sense. Yeah, you're going to defer to Sean Penn.
But we, you know, you did all this stuff and you worked as an actor and you did all that stuff and you really kind of as you said kind of trying to get to the thing that you would always set out to do which was to be a director because you wanted to to do that and yet in that time you also created and and had so many memorable performances which were just kind of in a lot of ways I'm not putting words in your mouth but but like they were kind of on the road to doing what you wanted to do and i saw you talking about fast times recently and and i'm sorry because i'm sure you're maybe you're tired or maybe you're not tired of talking about it but you know what i don't care let's yeah i don't care either i i have you're here and we got to talk about it i mean you you actually created a whole genre of of character it's like it's like inventing the RBI in baseball. You know, it's like they don't have a stat for a long time.
Everybody had a bad guy and blah, blah, blah. And you invented the stoner, which to this day is a whole fucking genre from a performance in a supporting, well, now I'd say a starring role because you really took that movie.
And I remember the first time I saw it, I remember the feeling that it made, I remember laughing in a way that I hadn't laughed before and thinking like, fuck, what a, and then it wasn't until I was older and going like, wait, I didn't even recognize how genius that was until now. Like, fuck me, man.
Like that movie, where were you at when that movie when that movie came because it's you know it's obviously a great movie and it's a really good film where were you at at that point in your life when you read that and you were like all right jeff spicoli i'm gonna do this like where were you where were you coming from and were these people that you knew were these, you know? You know, it's funny. There's this thing about adoption.
You know, I one time had a conversation with Malcolm Gladwell, and he told me that the computer mouse existed for 20 years before anybody started using it. And I think that one of the things that happened with that movie, and I'll circle back to where I was at, I think that the, the nature of that character was in the ether, that we weren't identifying it yet, but that it was, it was in the ether, which is why it kind of, I think, caught like wildfire once it was on a 40 foot screen.
You said, I know that guy. I didn't know there were two of them.
Right. Like, I literally, I know that, dude.
Right.

Exactly. And in fact, in my own life at the time, you know, it is, you'd have to ask Cameron Crowe if this is the case.
I'm sure I did, but I don't remember. My sense reading his book, which I read the book before the, a lot of people don't know that was a book before it was a screenplay.

And I read that character and I felt that that was what he wrote, rhythmically and so on. And there was a guy who lived in my neighborhood who was a very close model for it.
And in fact, about a year ago, I was walking up a beach path and a very straight-looking gentleman with his kids and his wife stopped and he said, Sean, how are you? And so on and so forth. And he had to, I said, I'm sorry, I'm not recognizing you.
Of course, I hadn't seen him for over 40 years. And it was the fellow that I really modeled the part on.
And he had, his speech had become very clear. His eyes were clear.
His parenting seemed very clear. And it was really extraordinary.
But he doesn't know to this day that it was him that it was. Oh, that's great.
Wow. You didn't tell him in that moment in that meeting on the trail? That would seem like such a bomb to drop on someone.
Your dad is Spicoli. I think I didn't because, you know, the poor guy, the next thing you know, you'd have journalists going over to interview the real Spicoli and bothering him at his house.
Hey, uh, Sean, uh, do you see any, um, do you see any parallel between what you really like to do with acting and directing as far as moving people and affecting people with what you do with your, with your philanthropy, with your, with being charitable and, um, all your activism and yeah, does it come from the same place? Um, this is shorter question the night than i had good for you by the way sorry sorry before sean penn before you answer that we got to celebrate how short jason's question was for the first time because you guys got enough of that right oh i wish we had a code so people could get a hoodie or something you know what i mean that would be great fucking congrats congrats bateman shaw was that was that enough intelligence in that question i understood the question and i'll answer it this way is is uh i'm born in 1960 so if you do the math on that that moment where we as young as adolescents really i think find our lust for film um the kinds of films that were being made at that time, it really was, in my sense, fortunate time to get turned on. There was a lot to fall in love with in film.
And also within those films, they all in their ways, without being polemics or anything, felt very, very purpose-driven. And I think we all strive to be purpose-driven and want a clarity of why we're doing what we're doing when we're doing it and i suppose if there's a parallel it's simply that you know you want to feel productive you want to feel you're you're saying something uh as an actor or as a filmmaker you're participating in saying something that reflects in a valuable way on the time that you're living in.
And I think that that's true with anything that anyone does, you know, stepping out into the development world or emergency response or aid, whatever one wants to call it. Right now, we're in such an active time on the earth in this way.
I think about how, for me, with my very comfortable life, it seems the sky is falling every day. And then when I try to imagine that through Afghani eyes or Haitian eyes, and the list goes on, it's really unimaginable and so to the old you know for me to have purpose in that is to pick up some of the pieces of the sky that are falling and try to get them back in place does that come out of anger like is that like you should see baby when they run out of almond milk on the set of ozark i imagine it's the same sensation right jay but i mean does it come out of rage than anger yeah i think it's more rage does it come out of a sense like do you feel that like like when you read like what's going on and and you know look i don't want to we're not a political show we don't talk but like you know what's going on in afghanistan where it just feels like this vacuum is being created that is just of immense proportions that's so fucking scary and real.
Do those moments, does that bolt you up in bed at night and be like, fuck, I got to get there, I got to do something? I don't know if it's that clear. I would say that, yes, there are times where it's alternately, my own involvements are alternately driven by what I like to think is an empathy, what I'm certainly aware is a rage, a kind of as hypocritical as anybody who claims themselves a hunter for justice is typically.
You know, I confess I'm a bit of a justice freak, and there's not an awful lot of it going on right now. But you talk about like you're like you know from my comfortable life like here's the problem everybody expects like okay well if you want to be mad about that stuff and you want to try to make a difference then you have to be your life has to be absolutely impervious to any sort of criticism that you have to live every aspect of your life and it's like no fuck that man we're all fucking human our best.
And if we can do well in certain areas, it doesn't mean that we're perfect in every other fucking area. And I think we stop celebrating what people do when we're so cynical that all we want to do is, instead of focusing on what they do, we focus on the shit on their shortcomings.
And that is a world that, that's the world that we live in now. And it's a very specific type of cynicism that exists i yeah and and i hope that it doesn't create a self-censorship of activism among people and a self-consciousness about that because we are flawed machines that are at best i mean i'm one of the things when we talk about you know it's interesting how this idea of cancel culture has become identified with on partisan lines.
But we know that with all of the, you know, evolution of thought, all of the very powerful ideas and the way the onion is being, you know, appealed back in terms of how we can do better in our world, there's, It's got to be better through a flawed lens

if it's going to be legitimate.

And on the other side,

the self-righteousness that is demanding perfect machines

is just inevitable hypocrisy

because I can't think of anybody, including myself,

who when you get on a high horse about something,

there's not something else someone can tear you down equally for. Right, right.
And we will be right back. Solace Health is a reimagining concierge health care for your entire family.
From mystery sniffles to late-night stitches, they provide peace of mind when you need it most with 24-7 care that handles medical concerns with immediacy, expertise, and comfort. Solace is like a personal medical assistant that works with your primary care provider and connects you with any specialist within days.
They're the first and only medical membership that's on demand 24-7 to treat everything from everyday health concerns to middle-of-the-night emergencies. With locations across the country, same-day appointments with little to no weight, and 24-7 telemedicine from anywhere in the world, Solace protects your busy schedule while getting you on the road to recovery.
They keep their members out of the ER 95% of the time in serene and soothing comfort without the wait, crowds, or confusion. I am a member of Solace Health, and if it wasn't for them, my pain from my kidney stone would have lasted forever.

They saved me in so many ways.

I love this place.

Join Solace Health, the first and only medical membership

that's on demand 24-7, and save 15% on your first year

when you use promo code SMARTLESS.

The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize what matters most. If financial wellness is a top priority for you in the new year, Rocket Money is here to help.
Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings. Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you.
of $500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.
Go to rocketmoney.com slash smartless today. That's rocketmoney.com slash smartless.
rocketmoney.com slash smartless. Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp.
Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time, is Scotty. And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason.
Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it. And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist and I've been going to therapy for a long time and it's always great.
So think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols. They don't have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community.
In a society that glorifies hyper-independence, it's easy to forget that we're all better when we have a support system behind us. Therapy can be a source of support for any area of your life.
It's time to shift that focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we ask for help. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.
Build your support system with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash smartlist to get 10% off your first month.
That's BetterHelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash smartlist. And now, back to the show.

I'm sure you've answered this before, and I apologize for not having heard the answer or remembering it. But it seems like politics would be a natural pull for you and a draw for you.
How close have you gotten to seriously considering jumping into that? And does that fluctuate from year to year? No, there was the Irish playwright Brendan Behan once said, he was asked that question. He said, I could never be in politics because I only have but one face.
That's fantastic. I think that, you know, for me, joking aside, that I just recognized that I would have a much more valuable temperament and support of the things that I do the way that I'm doing it than I would as a political leader, which I think takes more of a 24-7 focus on unifying in support of things that are going to help people and not have those bouts of rage as as often as as as I do when was that first time Sean when you became for lack of a better word enlightened when you when you were an actor and just an actor was there some what was the event or what was the thing where you're like wait a minute I need this is bigger me.
I need to step out of myself and really grow as a person and start offering myself in that way. Yeah, it's pretty clear to me that it was growing up in a, my father had been active, both in a formal way in the military during World War II, and then also informally, socially, stateside.
And growing up with a lot of civics discussed at the table, you know, that was there. And so as I started making my way through this kind of creative life, there's a period of time where you just find, I found I just had blinders on for it and really just wanted to understand what acting was about and what I could do as an actor and moving along through that.
Then, after about a decade of that, my first child was born. And a year after that, two years after that, three years after that, 9-11.
And I remember my daughter had a little ribbon in her hair and i took her to a local burger stand i was grabbing a burger and some fries and i was just looking at her this is probably a day a day or two after the planes and all of that nightmare and it just really landed on me how much their world was going to be, you know, something that we had never imagined before in so many ways. And I think that that kicked into gear.
And so by 2002, I made my first trip to Baghdad, repeated that in 2003, the latter trip writing for the San Francisco Chronicle. And I think that those engagements beginning to travel parts of the world that were both legitimately and illegitimately demonized

or people who were and wanting to see, you know,

not just what our headlines said here, but what their headlines said,

what their people said.

And I think all of that kind of carries you away.

And then finally, in terms of what led to my organization core that happened when Katrina hit in New Orleans. And I found out by going down there that one wasn't necessarily in authority's way by going down to lend a hand and that in fact, the authorities would embrace any hands they could get.
And so once I sort of had that, you know, license to practice, it just kind of snowballed from there. Yeah, that's great.
Sean, how do you stay informed? I imagine it goes well beyond New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, MSNBC, and CNN. Is there a group of trusted academics that you have kind of a weekly call with? I mean, to the extent that you can reveal any of this stuff, but you strike me as somebody that has got a level of information and curiosity that we'd all do better to have some of.
Well, I would say to any degree that that is true, it is principally through a network of friends around the world who have a front row seat to how the world works. You know, I often find myself in conversation with people who have worked in foreign service and have seen the United States from the perspective of these other countries.
And you will find a lot more commonality and thought, whether somebody be Republican or Democrat, but that they have traveled in those worlds, worked in those worlds, offered service in those worlds, I think that you get a much fuller picture of what happens because we have just a kind of monocultural bent here. I do spend a lot of time watching mainstream news, listening to news on the radio.
But I do think that the things that are targeted, the things that I can touch, whether, you know, where I have the resources with my organization and so on, and I need to get to the depth of things, then that relies heavily on a network of contacts and all aspects of what it takes to do those things. And you talked about CORE, your organization.
They made, it was the documentary they made, Citizen Pan, right, about CORE. Can you talk a little bit about CORE, about like what that day-to-day is like for you and what kind of reach you guys are having? Yeah, so, you know, as we know, we had this horrifying earthquake hit again now in the south and in Haiti.
Our teams went in yesterday, did heavy equipment in today, medical, you know, coordinating with a lot of other organizations and organizational leads. And it's a very desperate situation.
The road to get supply in from Port-au-Prince is owned by gangs. And so there's very big security issues getting supply there in any other way than sea or rotary or fixed wing.
Is there a functioning government, not as we know it, right? I mean, there's no real infrastructure. Is that one of the main impediments apart from the destruction from the earthquake? Well, here's the thing.
In 2010, the earthquake was epicentered in Leogon, right outside of Port-au-Prince. And so that pancaked all the government ministries.
So literally, the seat of power collapsed. So there was no one to call because they'd perished.
And so most of government was gone. In this case, and it will remain to be seen, you know, what's going to be more functional in this logistical challenge and leadership challenge.
You know, as I'm sure your listeners know, a few weeks ago, the president was violently assassinated in a commando raid on his house. Clearly, the country is very politically unstable.
There had been, the last couple of years, a lot of people displaced by criminal activity. Most of that criminal activity in Haiti is paid-for activity.
So you have young gangsters being exploited by heavyweights who are trying to push political buttons, and you get a lot of paid violent activity and kidnapping and so on. So it's a very challenging environment.
But I think that any of us that work in Haiti, while there have been some in government that have really been champions and really fought for their country, you really find the hope in Haiti and the common people. So much is said of their resilience, and it's something that's just so palpable.
Like I said in the beginning of this conversation, when I say the idea of what must this world look like through Haitian eyes, it wouldn't look the same to them as it does to us in the sense of hopelessness. They have a hope.
They have a real strength of spirit. They'd have to, right? Otherwise, because the alternative is just collapse.
Yeah. I mean, fuck, man.
I'm going to take Sean's question. What do you do for fun, Sean? I was just going to go.
I was being kind of glib, but what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do in a world that, I get it, there's so much. What are the things that do bring you, I know you get a lot of joy and a lot to help out and be so active, but what are the things when you just want to fucking shut it down? Well, I guess on the static side, I like to write.
On the active side, I've always been a surfer and loved surfing. I have done less of it in the last couple of years with all that's been going on than at any other time in my life.
And even each morning as I wake up these days, it's's like is this the day i'm gonna get back in the water um and i and i'm turning 61 next week i had better get back in the water soon if i'm not gonna just you're gonna do it listen we're gonna come over we're gonna celebrate we're gonna bring some e we're gonna go back to like year 2000 where all four of us are gonna do e and we're just gonna fucking let it out. Oh, my God.
And just let our shoulders drop. Both of those things, riding and surfing sound pretty sane and responsible.
What's the stupidest shit that you're doing? I mean, is it like a bad reality TV show? Is it like driving fast? Is it eating cookies and cake i mean like what when what what's the idiot part of you doing well i think that you know you you can you can watch too much cable news there's no question about that jason yeah and and it can because i think that there's there's a thing we have called the nervous system that we want to protect. Yeah.
Yes. Yeah.
Yeah. I literally, so Sean, you need to know.
So last week we were out east and we just got back. But last week we were out east and Jason and his wife and the kids came and stayed with us and me and my boys.
And so Jason and I are both early risers and he would come, he'd come in and like I'd be making a coffee and taking the dog out and stuff, and Jason would come in at like 6.37. And before he even turns on the coffee machine, he turns on the fucking cable news, which I never do.
I stopped a long time ago because it makes me feel bad. Yeah, same.
And I was like, oh, I've got to protect the way I feel. It's like turning the light on in the room.
He turns it on, and it's on all day And we're out on the East Coast and it's a beautiful day. Let's go to the beach.
And he wants to go and do all this stuff, but he needs the soundtrack that is eating away at his. Well, but where it makes you feel bad, it makes me feel good that these incredible journalists from my preference is MSNBC, where these guys are shaping these opinions and articulating them in such a way where it helps a dum-dum like me kind of get it out.
And I like the way they take down some of these nincompoops that they're having to work, you know, next to and alongside. And it releases my value.
We're going to have to bleep that out with the nincompoop. We're going to have to beep it and then everything.
Jesus, fuck. What the fuck is this, like the 50s? What are you doing? Sean, back to Will's suggestion of us taking E and going surfing.
Okay, well, let's make it mushrooms. Let's make it mushrooms.
Mushrooms, mushrooms. Anyway, it's next week on his 64th birthday.
Yeah, go ahead. I mean, having played one of the most famous stoners ever in the history of the world, what is like the worst drug trip you ever been on, and what is it? Well, it's funny.
When I played that part, I had never done any drug at all and didn't until after that. But for sure the worst was I had taken a 21-hour drive direct from New York to New Orleans, checked into a hotel and thought, okay, it's a good idea to get something to eat before I go to bed.
It was about 11 o'clock at night. Make a long story short, I walked into a bar where I got dosed seven hits of liquid acid and went on a 35-hour relentless trip to hell.
That's not an experience I'd like to repeat. Worst place to do it, too.
What a fucking nightmare. Oh, man.
Yeah, that's a place you just can't get out of. You feel like you're broken, that you're never going to come back, right? Yeah.
Yeah. Oh, buddy.
Have you ever shown up in a place like in that emergency time? I mean, your boot's on the ground, you get there, and the world's falling apart, and then some local there is like, Spicoli's here, we're okay. You know what I mean? Has that ever happened? Have you ever had a weird moment in a desperate time? It hasn't.
Well, the only place, for example, in Haiti, prior to 2010, if they saw movies at all, movie theaters collapsed in 2010, they were interested in the Rambos and action movies. You never got any distribution of the kind of films that I'd done.
You didn't have a lot of people with laptop computers watching things. It was nothing like that.
So don't have a high visibility uh at all in haiti even today as an actor um interesting the only i'm gonna say exotic place where i i was taken off guard by that kind of recognition was uh forgive me not being able to come up with the year but it was in the week preceding the election called that appointment of Ahmadinejad in Iran. And I'd gone, again, for the San Francisco Chronicle to write a piece on that election.
And typically when I go to a place that's really new to me, I like to, depending upon what time that airplane lands, I like to get up very early in the morning and just take a long walk to kind of absorb the place. And I had had, and I wrote about this, a kind of sense of Iran as this sort of doom and gloom and chant place, which, you know, we'd heard all we'd heard about here in the States.
And fact it was you know the people were so hip they were so aware of american movies i think the first thing that they talked to me about was 21 grams which had the most sex and drugs of any movie i probably ever did and they were you know oh we love that movie so that was uh that was the most surprising. The people there are extraordinary.
Clearly, they have a horror show in leadership, but there are really extraordinary people in Iran. So, Sean, you turning 61, us kind of right on your heels.
If you're like us, or me at least, you know, we're, we're, we're halfway. Okay.
Let's say, I mean, do, are you living to a hundred? Sorry. I, we've never talked about this.
You're living to a hundred. I'm shooting for it.
Fuck. Do you start thinking about, well, all four of us have been very fortunate that we've gotten a lot of things done that we probably wanted to get done.
Certainly,

Sean, you seem to have done so many great things. Do you think about this second half,

does something jump to the front of your mind as something you really want to get done before it's all over? You know, my wife is a significantly younger woman than I am a man,

and she doesn't have much tolerance for me considering that I'm on the second half. So publicly, I don't know what I'll say about that.
But yes, certainly. Sean just looked over his shoulder, by the way.
Certainly one wants to, you know, I guess I measure it trying to be a better dad every day and make sure that I, on the last day, I have as little shame as possible. Yeah.
I get that. Yeah.
I get that too. I remember, I don't know,

when was the last time you talked about Falcon and the Snowman?

Was it been a minute?

Been a minute, yeah.

Yeah.

I remember that movie.

I loved that movie, man.

I was like, I'm 10 years, like Jason,

I'm about 10 years younger than you and I remember that movie came out, I was about 14

and I was like, fuck, that's so fucking cool.

Talk to me a little bit about that

because I remember that was right around, like that was, I forget who directed that film. It was John Schlesinger.
Yeah, it was such a sophisticated movie in a way. Like it was a really, you know, that's a true film as opposed to movie.
That's one of those movies that I think I reserve the word. But I mean, that was a great movie.
Can you talk, was that a good experience for you, that movie?

Well, John was an extraordinary film director.

You know, he had made Midnight Cowboy, Marathon Man,

The Day of the Locust, Far From the Madding Crowd.

I mean, he was, and he was very diverse.

He also directed opera, theater.

And so I walked into that movie as a gigantic fan. And in the period after making the movie, John and I got along great.
We didn't have a good relationship during the making of the film because there was a sort of, I had a real devotion to bringing the character out very much in line, which would not always be the case. But in that case, very much as close as I could get to who the real guy was.
And by that, I mean physically, vocally, all of it. And John was interested in a more impressionistic view of it.
So we kind of... Like butted heads a little bit? Yeah, butted heads a little bit on that.
But that said, to be whatever I was, about 22, 23 years old, and to have the opportunity to work with John Schlesinger and Alan Davio and then my great friend Timothy Hutton on the second thing that we did together, it's a very memorable one. And also Steve Zalian, who wrote the script,

who was down there.

And we shot most of the film in Mexico City.

And so even that part of it,

being able to spend time in Mexico,

which I'd only ever gotten down to Rosarito before

with a surfboard and never been down in Mexico City

before that, it was quite a great experience. And that was right.
Of course, you and Timothy Hutton had done Taps together. And then this was you guys together.
I remember, I've always remembered that, you know, because there was a lot of press about it back, even way back then, that you guys were great friends. And then you guys went and did this film.
I don't know. I always loved that movie.
There's no real question there other than I just love that fucking movie. It's also what I, I do have nostalgia when I hear the David Bowie, Pat Matini track.
Oh, yes. This is not America from that.
Oh, so good. We'll be right back.
The New Balance 1080 is the ultimate daily trainer combining reliable comfort with top tier performance. Whether you're logging miles or running errands, the 1080 seamlessly transitions from the coffee shop to the grocery store, offering versatility for everything from every day to race day.
The New Balance 1080 midsole offers cushion support that keeps your foot secure, delivering the propulsive comfort athletes need for smooth, effortless runs. Featuring a lightweight and breathable proprietary mesh upper, the new Balance 1080 keeps feet cool and fresh throughout every run.
Guess what? I have a pair. I wear them every single day and they make me feel like I'm walking on a cloud.
They're so comfortable. They make me feel secure when I'm walking.
You know what I didn't have on when I hurt my ankle the other day? I didn't have these on. I had another brand on.
But these, whenever I wear, I feel super, super secure. I should have had them on before.
Shop the 1080 at newbalance.com. Smartless is sponsored by Liquid IV.
So one of my things that I'm trying this year, really trying hard, is to wake up earlier. I wake up like my alarm will go off, like a lot of people I know, and they'll hit it and you'll...
I really try to force myself to get out of bed and hop in the shower the minute I wake up in the morning. So whatever you guys decide to do to try this year, come into your own, your own way with Extraordinary Hydration from Liquid IV.
With flavors like their new hydration multiplier, sugar-free raspberry lemonade, a bright zero-sugar blend of ripe, freshly picked raspberries, and citrusy, zesty lemon, just one stick plus 16 ounces of water, hydrates better than water alone. Break the mold and your own ritual.
So the first thing I do is hydrate myself in the morning, make sure

that I don't have to think about it for a few hours. And drinking Liquid IV makes me kind of

check that box the first thing I get out of bed. Embrace your ritual with extraordinary hydration

from Liquid IV. Get 20% off your first order of Liquid IV when you go to liquidiv.com and use

code SMARTLESS at checkout. That's 20% off your first order when you shop Better Hydration today using promo code SMARTLESS at liquidiv.com.
Imagine your perfect day. The sun's out.
You're doing the thing that you love to do outside. Now imagine not being able to enjoy this perfect day because of your own body odor.
Dovemen Plus Care Whole Body Dio helps keep your B.O. from ruining the good days.
From pits to privates to feet, you can feel confident with 72-hour protection in all your odor zones. Dovemen Whole Body Dio goes on instantly dry with an aluminum-free, vitamin E-infused formula for whole body freshness and care.
Dove Men Plus Care Whole Body Dio. Get everywhere, everywhere care.
Even down there. Find it on Amazon or at Target today.
Sean, where do you stand on that? Going back to you having a conversation, a creative negotiation with the director. Where do you stand on that, especially now having directed since you went through that situation with Schlesinger? Where do you stand on whose character is it? Is it the actor's character or is it the director's character? And how have you found your flexibility adjusting? Bateman, are you trying to start a fight? What are you trying to get him going? But I just, I mean, you know, well, I'll let you answer it.
I won't answer my own question. Go ahead.
Well, I think it cuts both ways because, you know, my sense of working in the theater is that the director's principal job is to wean the actor out of dependence on the director. You've got to, at some point, let those horses run together once they've got their coordinated interests in line to tell the story.
In film, it's different, but I think that if you're not able to let the actor own that character, then you probably cast the wrong actor. Now there's variances on that where there are times where a director may understand and be able to push you to another level of the same gap or to make you revisit some of the choices that you made but But you certainly want the guiding energy on a set is that that actor speaks for that character.
I think as an actor, we're kind of the designated bodyguard of the character we're playing. Yeah, and I mean, you know, the challenge comes with, you know, people who are given a part as opposed to audition for a part.
And so you don't really know what that actor is going to do, what the version of that character they're going to be performing until it's about 20 minutes from shooting. You're saying it sucks to work with stars.
Well, you know, you kind of, a lot of directors have to kind of take what they get. And if you're a director like me, that's a good thing.
Because I've got a real light touch with actors. I love, I'm just assuming they're going to give me the best that they can give.
And then your job is to see, okay, what version do they want to play of this character? And I got to help them kind of keep it on the road. Whereas, you know, I'll work with some directors where all their notes, you get the sense all their notes are coming from a place of, boy, how am I going to get this actor to play the part the way that I've seen it all the way through pre-production, even when I first read the script or developing it with the writer or whatever.
And that's just, to me, that's just a false negative that a director will put on an actor because the audience hasn't read the script. They've got they don't have the preconceived notion that director has.
And and now you're asking the actor to go into areas that they're not instinctually driven towards. And it's it can yield a real clanky thing.
So it's great to hear you say that. There's a kind of, you know, approach that is, you know, a win in doubt, do nothing approach that sometimes frames this conversation for me.
I once had a conversation with Marlon Brando where he said this great thing, because there've been plenty of times where just notwithstanding being an actor or a director as a film audience, there are plenty of times where I was so moved by something an actor did and then going back i i i'm watching it again i still so moved i couldn't find what the actor did and it's sometimes as marlon said when you have good writing when you have good directing sometimes the job is not getting in the audience's way that they will do a lot of the work of how that story is telling itself. And so all of these approaches, I do think that directors who deny themselves the ability to be surprised by what their actors bring are doing themselves in the project a disservice.
But there are times that it goes back and forth, that you can get a lot of guidance from a good director as well. Do you ever want to go back and do a big, fat comedy? Just do one big, stupid, heisty, bad comedy.
You know, I have not been offered a lot of those. Really? Really? Yeah, I think as I got older, my face became more disturbing

and less prone towards comedies.

I don't know what it is, but I just haven't,

you know, when I've gotten to do a comedy,

I've really enjoyed it,

and certainly I would be as interested in a comedy

as I would in anything.

Sean Hayes, do you think you'll ever do a comedy?

You know, I knew you were going to ask that, so thank you. It just depends.
It just depends on what it's about and how deep I can find that guy. You know what, I was just thinking, Sean must be just basking because we're asking all these really important questions and then we keep saying and then asking Sean and then Hayes for a moment has these nanoseconds where he's like, they're asking me and do they know me and we've been friends for 20 years why is he asked right i never get asked those deep questions but you know so so sean pan you're now you've got like you say you're 61 and you've got a lot on your plate for for a guy who claims that he's in the the sort of the second half or whatever you don't see there's no kind of i mean i kind of call it bs you're you're kind of right in your zone right now kind of doing it all more than ever listener you gotta know we're we're looking at this guy right now this sean penn this this this guy is pretty smoking guys uh yeah well sean what's what's what's going on um what's the secret first of all babin wants to know what's the secret.
Yeah. Oh, are you

talking about how I look? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, the secret is framing and light.
No, no, there's no ring light there. There's nothing.
I mean, you look crazy healthy. Are you hanging out with Laird a bunch? I mean, what's going on? No, I wish I was.
Getting myself back into a post-COVID fitness has commenced.

I've begun that work, but only begun it. What is that? What is that workout for you? Well, it starts with running, either on the road or on a treadmill.
And then once I've got myself run out, then I'll jump off that treadmill or off the road into a weight workout and try not to smoke as many cigarettes in the course of that period. And listener, just so you know, he has never not had a cigarette in his hands.
I won't admit to smoking. I won't admit to it, but I'm with you.
I call it job security for oncologists.

Oh, my God.

Don't say that.

Wait, Sean, what are you watching right now?

Do you enjoy a streaming thing?

What do you do?

You want anything to do with it, so you listen to music instead?

Oh, yeah.

I just saw Summer of Soul, which is incredible,

if anybody hadn't seen it. Yes.
It's really incredible. What is that? That's Questlove's movie.
Right. Yeah.
I'll see that. Oh, yeah? Yeah, that's amazing.
Thrilling. On a filmmaking level and on the story, it really was something.
I'm anxious for Succession to start back up. Oh, nice.
Sure. And I'll blank on things.
Oh, I just saw Kate Winslet was just so great in this thing. Mare of Eastwood.
Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I try not to get hooked by these things because I'm pretty susceptible to that addiction probably as anybody, but never got there because I put it off.
I didn't see a streaming show until COVID. My wife turned me on to something.
What do you think about it as a medium? How do you like it? Well, I don't like what it's doing to film. I think that there's something, you know, anything that creates more content, democratizes the ability to make film, gives us more diversity, being able to see film from all over the world, that's got a great heart to it.
But like any de facto town square, if it gets too crowded, then nothing's special and it gets to be a lot of sharp elbows. Yeah.
And so I'm very torn about it. I would be less torn about it if we in in in in acting and filmmaking stood up to our financial uh lords and said you know there you have to preserve exclusive theatrical releases of films if we are to do this other stuff i would like to to see that movement.
But there is something, as a filmmaker, I think I just fell in love with the girl that was the cinema, the big dark room. So I don't know that I would want to work as a director to that end, but I certainly can get caught up as an audience, and there's some miraculous work that's being done on television.
There's no question about it. Bateman, you ruined film, Bateman, and then Sean Penn just confirmed it, and I'm with him.
And by the way, it should be noted, whatever Sean Penn's opinion is, is also my opinion. It should just be noted going forward.
I second that. Go ahead, Bateman.
Go ahead. I second that.
What about, so the listener, there's a guitar over his right shoulder. Where does music sit for you in this world? Is it a hobby? Is it a passion? Is it your next career? What's it do for you? It's the passion that I can't do.
That's one of my son's guitars. I am a terrible guitar player.
If I sang, you'd all be dead. But it is the thing that's the best medicine for me is listening to music.
I'm a very music-dependent director in film. Again, going back to that era that I grew up in, whether it was The Graduate or Harold Mott or those films that used songs as part of the storytelling or as characters in the story, I have a great affection for that kind of cinema.
And I love working with musicians. I've had some really great collaborations that have been super enriching.
Yeah, tell me about working with Eddie Vedder on the last film. I'm such a huge, huge fan of his, and I know you guys are close.
What was that like? Well, Ed and I had worked on, well, we'd worked on a couple of films together in the past, but then significantly Into the Wild. And, you know, he really became the hitter that put the ball over the fence in the last inning.
And we had such a great experience. And so when I started Flag Day, one of my go-to things is I send Ed the script and say, what do you think? It had been from the early stages my sense that the leading voice of it, of the songs that would play, would be female because it's a female-driven story.
But that there was a balance between the father and the daughter where I felt that I could insert male voices at times. And Ed brought Glenn Hansard in, who's a great, you know, did the songs for once.
Love that guy. Yeah.
Brilliant songwriter. And then it was my daughter who I, because I was listening to so many great female singers and singer-songwriters, and all of the usual suspects, and then a lot of people I was turned on to by others.
But I couldn't find a voice that just seemed harmonious with my daughter's emotional spirit. And then I asked her, and she suggested Cat Power.
And so Ed had known her. Ed became kind of the, as well as a singer-songwriter on the movie, he became kind of the curator of the song bank on that thing and worked with all of them.
And they've got a record coming out of it, which I'm looking forward to hearing because it's not only the songs that are in the movie, but songs, I suppose, inspired by the story. Did he score it as well? Is he also the composer? No, the my long-time collaborator and friend, Joseph Vitarelli, so he did the instrumentals, but we at times borrowed from each other's themes and took some pieces of instrumental from the songs and layered it in so that it was kind of a quilt we put together.
I can't wait to see it. Yeah, no shit.

God, that sounds so cool.

I've never been able to describe anything that I've done like that in such an eloquent way that makes people want to listen to it or watch it. Listen, Sean, when was the last time you got in a fist fight? Be real.
Be honest. When was the last time? It's been a long time.
Yeah. It's been a long time.
It's fifth grade for me. I know you're not asking, but it was fifth grade.
Is it really, Jason? And I swung and I missed. Is it fifth grade? Fifth grade, yeah.
I extended fifth grade for many years in my own psyche. You swung and you missed as a metaphor for my career.
And hey, Sean Penn, you know, first of all, before we let you go, I have to say thank you for being such- You don't need to specify on the Sean, Hayes. Yeah, you're the one who doesn't need to.
God, Jesus Christ. I'm so sorry, Penn.
Go ahead, Sean. Okay.
Hayes. Sean Penn, I have to say- Jesus.
I have to say thank you for being such an incredible voice and advocate for the LGBTQ community.

Your portrayal of Harvey Milk was incredible to me

and to millions of people around the world.

So thank you for that, for such an incredible,

incredible portrayal of an incredible man.

I was very lucky to be able to do that.

Yeah, I read for it.

I'm still waiting to hear.

And then the other thing was, when I was a kid, we spell our names the same, S-E-A-N. And all my teachers, when I was a kid, would be like, Sian Hayes? Like they didn't understand it until Fast Times came out.
And then people are like, I go, you've never heard of Sean Penn? And then, so thank you for allowing me in the Midwest teaching people how to say my name. So I appreciate it.
I feel for you that it was Sean Penn and that character, you know, as a guy who grew up with Sean Connery and James Bond. Yeah.
Yeah. And that's the other thing.
I was like, you've never heard of Sean Connery or Sean Penn. So thank you for that.
And congratulations to all the educators from Illinois. Thank you for not knowing how to say the fucking name, Sean.
I agree. I was like, how do you guys not know that? What a blistering indictment.
Listen, Sean Penn, man, thank you so much for joining us. What an absolute thrill and honor to have you on, man.
Let me just say, you all three are such extraordinarily talented guys.

And when I heard you were doing a podcast whenever I first heard about it,

I thought to myself, I'm going to have to figure out how to use this podcast app.

And I still haven't.

So this is essentially the first time I got to hear it.

And it's a lot of fun,

and I look forward to listening more and watching for you guys on the screen.

Super, super great group.

Thank you, Sean.

I appreciate it.

Don't let it slow down anything you're doing, please.

Keep doing everything you're doing.

Thank you for all that stuff and being a nice North Star for all of us.

Fucking trailblazer.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Fucking hell.

Take care, Sean.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for coming on, pal. You bet.
Bye. My pleasure.
Bye. The laptop drop.
Yeah. The laptop drop.
The laptop drop. Who was the first one that did that? Well, the listener will have to tell us because they'll remember.
So what we're describing is when we say goodbye, a lot of people just kind of hang out still. And then we say offline, thank you for being...
But a lot of people are now just starting to actually just close their laptop. He's the third guest we've had who have just closed.
They say bye to us and then they just close their laptop because that makes the most sense. Because you know what? Because he's a director and he's amazing.
Because he's smart and he's like... It's very telling.
Yeah, it's very telling. He's like, that's the quickest way to shut off the fucking thing.

If I close, I don't have to go and like,

is the window closed and blah, blah, blah.

You know, one time I met Sean Penn one other time in my life.

I forgot to say this to him.

And he came up to me because he just saw me do some.

Again, you can just say, Sean,

we know that you're not talking about yourself.

Go ahead.

So he said to me,

he comes up to me backstage at this fundraiser thing i did he goes you're fucking nuts and i go i'm fucking nuts you're fucking nuts then we laughed and we had a good time and because he saw me do this crazy too long of a story but i did this promo thing for nbc and i was insane in it and uh but it was such a great compliment we laughed about it and he was uh but that's the only other time i met him he was so kind and sweet and normal what a great decision not to share that with him when he's on our podcast i know i know way to save it till when he's gone yes way to go god i i met him i met him one time i was out i was out this is a this is going to be a crazy a weird ass crew are you ready for the crew uh i'm hanging at late night one night at the chateau marmont years ago and it's me and krasinski and daniel craig hold for applause hold for applause and then sean was there with a friend he was at a table over and he just it was like a late on a sunday night i remember it was after the super bowl weirdly enough and he said hey you guys mind if we join, come on. So we sat down and we had the greatest conversation.
And of course, because we just had our conversation. He's so cool and he's so articulate and he's got so many great ideas and thoughts and cool, you know, his whole approach to everything, perspectives.
And then at one point he was talking about, and we were having this conversation and he said to me, you know, like, look, man, it's like, what you do and like, you know, for you and for me as artists,

the two of us as artists, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm just nodding along like, uh-huh, uh-huh.

And then we're leaving, as we were driving home,

Krasinski goes, we're in the car and he kind of crying and goes, did fucking Sean Penn

just refer to you and him as artists

in the same? And I go, yes, dude.

Okay? So yes.

So don't fucking fuck with me.

All right? He and I...

Again, another story that would have been good to bring up

while he's on. I didn't want to.

I'm sorry. Okay? So, yes.
So don't fucking fuck with me, all right? He and I... Again, another story that would have been good to bring up while he's...
I didn't want to. I'll do my story that I should have brought up while he was with us.
Let's call him back. I was shooting something on the sidewalk in Manhattan.
It was a night shoot. So it must have been like 3.30, 4.30 in the morning.
It was very, very, very, very late. Wait, wait, wait, wait.
Since when did Hogan family shoot at night? Oh, Will. Sorry.
So we're on the sidewalk. It's like, I don't know, like West Village or something like that.
No cars coming down the street. And all the lights, all the cameras, everything is out on the sidewalk.
So if you were driving by, you could see that we're shooting a movie. Obviously, we're right there on the curb.
And here comes one lonely little cab, comes down, ripping down the, and it stops right in front of the set. So he's like six feet from us.
And the back door opens and out walks Sean Penn. And he just gets up.
We think, oh, he must live around here. He just gets up, stands out of the cab, looks at the whole shooting crew, there's about 150 of us, and he just holds his arms out and he goes, New New York City huh? Am I right? Gets back in the cab hits it No Just keep going Wow He was basically just saying like you guys are shooting a movie I'm a movie star it's four in the morning how about it? Huh? Is this great or what? Wait a second We all just thought it was the greatest thing ever Wait a.
Of all the three stories that should have been told to him, that was the best one by a fucking mile, which makes you so much dumber again. Yeah.
Bye, country mile. Bye.
He just, oh, I had such a good one. Okay, go ahead.
Go ahead. So wait, Jason, are you just saying he...
Don't waste it. By the way, don't waste it.

No, this is perfect.

Wait, so, Jason, are you just saying that he drove up as a fly-by?

Yeah, he drove right by the set.

That's the first three.

It's the first time we've had three byes. It's a triple bypass.

Smart.

Nice. Bye.
It's a triple bye. Pass.
Smart. Less.

Smart. Less.
Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarf. The next episode will be out in a week,

wherever you listen to podcasts,

or you can listen to it right now, early on Amazon Music, or by subscribing to Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. Smart Less.
Hey, friends, Jason here. We're so excited the Smart Less has officially joined the SiriusXM family.
We can't wait to announce new surprise guests who we know that you'll love. If you want to be the first to hear new episodes ad-free and a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to start your free trial today.
Lavender is back at Starbucks. Put some spring in your cup with the iced lavender matcha.
And now, here you go. Your iced lavender lattes are ready at Starbucks.
SmartList is brought to you by Audi. It's not every day you get excited by a new car, but the all-new Audi Q6 e-tron is more than a new EV.
It's a new way to experience driving. Embrace the thrill of the drive with effortless power, serious acceleration, and the most advanced tech of any Audi ever.
With an all-new panoramic digital stage and legendary Audi performance,

it's impossible not to love the all-new Audi Q6 e-tron.

I should know. I drive one.