“Sean Penn”

Speaker 1 Wondering how you can invest in yourself and work towards a goal that will last? Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress.

Speaker 1 Scotty and I are here in England still, right in London. And before we leave, we're talking about going to Paris while we're over here because it's like, when are we going to be over here again?

Speaker 1 And so we might take a day just to go over to Paris. And we talked about how great it would be to use Rosetta Stone to learn just a little bit of French before we go.
It's French, right?

Speaker 1 And now Smartlist listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash Smartlist to get started and claim your 50% off today.

Speaker 1 Nobody wants to spend the holiday season clicking from one site to the next to get their hands on the best brands. But who knew Walmart has the the top brands we all love?

Speaker 1 Like the big names that your friends and family actually want, and all in one place: Nespresso, Nintendo, Apple, you name it. Get the brands everyone loves at prices you'll love at Walmart.
Who knew?

Speaker 1 Go to walmart.com or download the app to get all your gifts this season.

Speaker 2 Oh, listener, welcome to our show. It's called Smartless and it's going to be incredible.

Speaker 1 Oh, settle in.

Speaker 2 The stuff we've got for you today.

Speaker 1 Oh, man, cinch your speedo because we're really going to get going on this one. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, man.

Speaker 1 Welcome to Smartless. Smart.

Speaker 1 Lettl.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 1 Lettuce.

Speaker 1 Hi, everybody.

Speaker 2 Oh, so

Speaker 2 I am in a remote location. Will is in a remote location.
Sean,

Speaker 2 you look like you're in a different room in the castle.

Speaker 1 No, I just have the door open because the dog is laying down behind me.

Speaker 1 He's been kind of

Speaker 1 slow today, Gassy. Oh, geez, walk us through it.
I mean, this, what a story.

Speaker 2 But why are you leaving the door open for a slow dog?

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 you can't see him. He's on the floor.
Because it takes him a while to get through because he's slow. I don't know.
I just want him to let him know he's not alone. Huh.

Speaker 2 Oh, bless your heart. What do you do for Scotty? You also leave a door open for Scotty?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 But you know what? We got. What if you panned your camera down and Scotty was laying next to the dog on the floor?

Speaker 1 No, but you know, we got in a little tiff today because he

Speaker 1 rightfully so. He is correct.

Speaker 1 I interrupt him too much is what we argued about. Sure.
Do you guys hit that a lot? No, because like I know what he's going to say. So I'm just like, and I finished the sentence.

Speaker 1 And he's like, can you just let me finish what my thought was? Can I tell you something? I got to say I'm with Scotty on this. This has been a pet peeve of mine for a while.

Speaker 1 I have certain people who are close to me. I'm not going to name them, but I grew up with them and we're related.
And they go, and they go, you go like, oh, man.

Speaker 1 So the other day I was coming down the street.

Speaker 1 No, I was coming down the canyon and I was noticing that it was sunny. And you're like, oh, do you just want to guess what I'm going to say? Or do you want me to say that? I know.
It's a thing.

Speaker 1 That drives me fucking.

Speaker 2 It makes me feel like people just want you to get on with it, right?

Speaker 1 My wife does the same thing to me. No, your wife, I get it.
Your wife. If I'm boring you, that's exactly what's going on.
Jason, I get it. With you, it is that you're boring her.
And I get it.

Speaker 1 And she's not wrong because you're a little bit slow and too deliberate sometimes.

Speaker 1 With me, it's not that. You see, I'm able to see it.
I know.

Speaker 2 No, I was listening to what the Tony Hawk episode today, and I'm like, Jesus, Jason,

Speaker 2 I talk to myself in third person when I'm in the car. So, Jason, get on with the question.
Like, the listener and the questionnaire, questioner, questionnaire, subject, interviewee,

Speaker 2 they get it.

Speaker 2 Just go ahead and just chop it off and let them talk.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, but sometimes you have to relate before you. You did have a long question.

Speaker 1 You did have a really long question from Tony Hawk that was fucking.

Speaker 2 I always do, though. Maybe I'd just like to hear more.

Speaker 2 i kind of don't mind it because you have to give the question context so sometimes it takes a second right but that's just it you don't have to when you're listening to it you're like i get it or i'm ahead of you shut up well my questions are like what's your favorite color and stuff like that so i guess they just kind of stay yeah no your questions you're it's a whole different thing with you you know what after this session we're gonna have a real sit-down okay broadway just stay on your zoom

Speaker 1 by the way the tony hawk episode i listened to it as well uh the other day and uh we i got burned on the broadway Broadway question when I said I made fun.

Speaker 1 And then he was like, I am doing a Broadway show. I know.
How about that, Tony Harrison? I know.

Speaker 1 God, we're all so dumb. I haven't finished the episode yet.

Speaker 2 How does it end?

Speaker 1 We all died. Yeah, we all died.
We all drilled it.

Speaker 1 And the butler did it.

Speaker 1 Oh, but here's the good news. We have a butler.
Hey, listen,

Speaker 1 I want to get to our guest because our guest is a very busy person. I'm so

Speaker 1 to say I'm thrilled is

Speaker 1 like the understatement of the century. I'm so excited to have this guy on our program.
He is a Prime Minister of Canada.

Speaker 1 An incredible artist, an incredible activist who, this isn't one of these things where like activists for 10 minutes and then like, good, everybody noticed. And so like, I'm back to doing what I do.

Speaker 1 This is a person who's

Speaker 1 not just talking the talk, but walking the walk.

Speaker 1 And it's really fucking admirable and incredible, especially in a time that's so complicated and so many issues are pressing in so many real fucking ways. This is is a boots on the ground activist.

Speaker 1 This is a fucking artist who shares with you, Jason, something that

Speaker 1 not a lot of people know that you both basically got your start on Little House on the Prairie. Is this Andy Dick?

Speaker 1 No, this person is a five-time Academy Award nominee and two-time Academy Award winner for best actor. I just got to get right to it.
This is Sean Penn.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God. There he is.
Sean Penn. Hi, fellas.

Speaker 2 You started on Little House in the Prairie?

Speaker 3 I It was a summer job as an extra. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Incredible. Oh, wow.
That's so cool.

Speaker 2 Were you sitting on a folding chair and holding the whole time?

Speaker 3 You know, it's funny you ask that because the principal memory I have was when they broke for lunch.

Speaker 2 They said, we just need to get first team through.

Speaker 3 Well, I didn't feel it was proper to go to an organized lunch that wasn't within the time period. So I stayed out in the sun in Sydney Valley.

Speaker 3 And as soon as they got back and were ready to shoot, I fell down from sun exhaustion.

Speaker 1 Oh, I thought you were going to say that you went and you churned your own butter.

Speaker 1 Sean, I just said this today. I was sitting on the couch with my husband, Scotty.
Your trailer was playing for your new movie called. Flag Day.
Flag Day. Flag Day.
Flag Day. And I said.

Speaker 2 One of the greatest scripts I've ever read in my life.

Speaker 1 I said, that movie looks amazing. There's nothing this guy can't do.
It already looks incredible. Your performance just from the trailer is incredible.

Speaker 1 So it's so bizarre that you're sitting here right now. It was just an hour ago.
I was like, that guy's amazing. I was going to get to Flag Day later, but Sean, get right into Flag Day.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about it, man. I mean, this

Speaker 1 is serious. I just did it.
It looks incredible. I know nothing about that story.
I know nothing about any. I just literally, just an hour ago, said, that movie looks amazing.
I will see that.

Speaker 3 That's great to hear.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it was a script that came to me many years ago based on Jennifer Vogel's memoir, Flim Flam Man.

Speaker 3 It's a father-daughter story in which

Speaker 3 is led really by the daughter who plays Jennifer Vogel and played by my daughter, Dylan Penn.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's so cool.

Speaker 3 Really had done little parts and things here and there over the years.

Speaker 3 She was reluctant to try to pull this one off and then just stepped into it as a truth machine and gave us something magic. So it's a movie I've got several reasons to be excited about.

Speaker 3 My son is also in it, Hopper Jack. That's cool.

Speaker 1 That's cool. So, yeah.
Did Did you try a long time to get them to work with them?

Speaker 1 Did it take a lot of convincing?

Speaker 3 It was, in particular, with my daughter.

Speaker 3 She was of the school thought as a teenager that the work that her parents did was absolutely silly, dressing up, adults dressing up and playing their people.

Speaker 3 And it took her time to acquire a respect for the work and for the people who do it in that sense.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 yet she had always been interested in being behind the camera, to be in the film industry.

Speaker 3 And so I would go to Dylan every couple of years when this script would appear, when Flag Day would appear, because by appear, I mean the journey it goes on when you can't get the actress you want.

Speaker 3 And in this case, her face was imprinted on that role to me.

Speaker 3 And so you have to tell those producers, you guys should go on your way and find somebody else to do this.

Speaker 3 And then it fortunately came back around at a point where she felt she had lived enough life to invest

Speaker 3 in understanding it

Speaker 3 and had spent enough time on sets to kind of get her sea legs in that sense. And then she just came out and rocked it.
So it was, yeah,

Speaker 3 it was a long time because she was very reluctant about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's. How did she gain the respect for what you and Robin do? Did it take her just trying it and and going, oh, wow,

Speaker 2 this feels different than what I thought?

Speaker 3 I think it was

Speaker 3 more or less that there's an irreverence that children have for parents who aren't doctors.

Speaker 3 Which I understand, of course.

Speaker 3 And so it's sort of an exaggerated reaction for a time. But then as she started to be

Speaker 3 moved by the work that people do on both both sides of the camera in movies and

Speaker 3 provoked by it and where she was being hit by it as she, perhaps at a younger age, was being hit by paintings or music,

Speaker 3 then it just developed into a more mature sense of it and a more mature embrace of it.

Speaker 1 What was your relationship to, like, did you identify with that? Because of course you grew up and your dad was a filmmaker.

Speaker 1 So what was that like for you to have, to have your own kid who had a different relationship to the arts? And like you got into it so young and then she kind of went a different path.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, the age I really got into it was when I graduated high school late in my 17th year.

Speaker 3 But, you know, when we mentioned Little House on the Prairie, that was virtually just to put a couple of pennies in my pocket as an extra. There was no, I didn't have any.

Speaker 3 sense that though my parents were involved in theater and film, I had no sense that that's the direction that I'd be going. I was spending my time in high school reading the books of F.

Speaker 3 Lee Bailey about his cases and wanting to be a lawyer, a criminal defense attorney. Wow.

Speaker 3 Then in senior year, I started getting involved with my younger brother and a group of friends who had gotten a hold of a Super 8 camera with the magnetic sound strip on it so that you could actually make talkies.

Speaker 3 And so we started making those and because we were shooting an awful lot at night

Speaker 3 when other kids were doing homework and you couldn't get them to come out and be your actors, I would be directing those movies and acting in them. And at a certain point,

Speaker 3 I felt so invested in film, but I didn't know what the outlet would be. I knew that to direct, you need somebody to entrust millions of dollars on your back.

Speaker 3 So I went into a repertory company as an actor and very quickly became impassioned about that and then working in class and so on.

Speaker 3 And the next thing I knew, I was working in the theater regularly and then from that into film.

Speaker 3 And then after about 10 years of that, 11 years of that, I finally got to do what I'd started out with the intention to do at stage 17, which was to direct my first film.

Speaker 1 That's so cool. You know,

Speaker 1 I just watched the Val Kilmer documentary. I don't know if you've seen that.

Speaker 3 Yes, I have seen it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's really, really great. And he just seems like such a great guy, such a trooper.

Speaker 1 But there's footage of you backstage in New York. And

Speaker 1 you're all so young. And it was this mind-blowing, you know, because a lot of people think, oh, you just come out of the womb and all of a sudden you're a movie star.

Speaker 1 But, you know, people have no context about what it takes to achieve what you've achieved.

Speaker 1 And to see that footage of you just as a kid, just and I don't know what the play was, but it was so cool to see that, A, that he had that footage. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then B, to see that you all were just hanging out like regular people backstage. It was super cool.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I remembered that Val had, you know, this

Speaker 3 video camera, which was, I think, a fairly novel thing at that time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you were like, is that a video camera?

Speaker 1 Wow. You were blown away by that.

Speaker 3 Yeah, and he was.

Speaker 1 Sorry, Tracy in Wisconsin, a video camera.

Speaker 1 Do they know what that is in Wisconsin, dude?

Speaker 1 No, maybe. I don't know.
It's good that you pointed it out.

Speaker 3 It was pretty sci-fi to me. And

Speaker 3 he was consistent with it.

Speaker 3 And boy, yes, as Sean said, I mean, what an extraordinaryly creative, kind of magical guy he developed into over time.

Speaker 3 And yeah, it's really a film people should see. It's sensational.

Speaker 1 Yeah, really cool. You know what's funny, Sean, is that you started

Speaker 1 not you, Hayes. Sure, no.

Speaker 1 I'm going to call you Hayes for the rest of the show, Sean. Sure, that's fine.
That makes sense.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're going to defer to Sean Penn.

Speaker 1 But we, you know, you did all this stuff and you worked as an actor and you did all that stuff and you really kind of, as you said, kind of trying to get to the thing that you would always set out to do, which was to be a director because you wanted to do that.

Speaker 1 And yet in that time, you also created and had so many memorable performances, which were just kind of in a lot of ways, I'm not putting words in your mouth, but like they were kind of on the road to doing what you wanted to do.

Speaker 1 And I saw you talking about fast times recently. And I'm sorry, because I'm sure

Speaker 1 maybe you're tired or maybe you're not tired of talking about it. But you know what? I don't care.
Let's. Yeah, I don't care either.
I have

Speaker 1 you're here and we got to talk about it. I mean, you, you actually created a whole genre of character.
It's like, it's like inventing the RBI in baseball.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like they don't have a stat for a long time. Everybody had a bad guy and blah, blah, blah.
And you invented the stoner, which to this day is a whole fucking genre from a performance

Speaker 1 in a supporting well now i'd say a starring role because you really took that movie and i remember the first time i saw it i remember the feeling that it i remember laughing in a way that i hadn't laughed before and thinking like fuck what a and then it wasn't until i was older and going like wait i didn't even recognize how genius that was until now like fuck me man like that movie how where were you at in when that movie came because it's you know it's obviously a great movie and a really good film where were you at at that point in your life when you read that and you were like all right jeff spicoli i'm gonna do this like where were you where were you coming from and were these people that you knew were these you know You know, it's funny.

Speaker 3 There's this thing about adoption.

Speaker 3 You know, I was, I one time had a conversation with Malcolm Gladwell, and he told me that, you know, it took that the computer mouse existed for 20 years before anybody started using it.

Speaker 3 And I think that one of the things that happened with that movie, and I'll circle back to where I was at, I think that the nature of that character was in the ether, that we weren't identifying it yet, but that it was in the ether, which is why it kind of, I think, caught like wildfire once it was on a 40-foot screen.

Speaker 3 You said, I know that guy. I didn't know there were two of them.

Speaker 1 Right. Like, I literally, I know that dude.

Speaker 3 Exactly. And in fact, in my own life at the time,

Speaker 3 you know, it is, you'd have to ask Cameron Crowe if this is the case. I'm sure I did, but I don't remember.

Speaker 3 My sense reading his book, which I read the book before the, a lot of people don't know that was a book before it was a screenplay. And

Speaker 3 I read that character and I felt that that was what he wrote,

Speaker 3 rhythmically and so on. And there was a guy who lived in my neighborhood who was a very close model for it.
And in fact, about a year ago, I was walking

Speaker 3 up a beach path, and a very straight-looking gentleman with his kids and his wife stopped, and he said, Sean, how are you? And so on and so forth. And he had to,

Speaker 3 I said, I'm sorry, I'm not recognizing you. Of course, I hadn't seen him for over 40 years.
And it was the fellow that I really modeled the part on. And

Speaker 3 his speech had become very clear. His eyes were clear.
His parenting seemed very clear. And it was really extraordinary.
But he doesn't know to this day that it was him that it was modeled at.

Speaker 2 You didn't tell him in that moment, in that meeting on the trail. That would seem like such a bomb to drop on somebody.

Speaker 1 Your dad is Spicoli.

Speaker 3 I think I didn't because, you know, the poor guy, the next thing you know, you'd have journalists going over to interview interview the real Spikoli and bothering me at his house.

Speaker 2 Hey, Sean,

Speaker 2 do you see any parallel between what you really like to do with acting and directing as far as moving people and affecting people with what you do with

Speaker 2 your philanthropy,

Speaker 2 with being charitable and

Speaker 2 all your activism?

Speaker 2 Yeah, does it come from the same place?

Speaker 2 This is my first shorter question than I have.

Speaker 1 Good for you. By the way, sorry, sorry, before Sean Penny.
Before you answer that, we got to celebrate how short Jason's question was for the first time. Fuck it.

Speaker 2 Because you guys got enough of that, right?

Speaker 1 Oh, I wish we had a code so people could get a hoodie or something. You know what I mean? That would be great.
Fucking grats. Congrats, Bateman.

Speaker 2 Sean, was that enough intelligence in that question?

Speaker 3 I understood the question. And I'll answer it this way.

Speaker 3 I'm born in 1960. So if you do the math on that,

Speaker 3 that moment where we as young as adolescents really, I think, find our lust for film,

Speaker 3 the kinds of films that were being made at that time, it really was, in my sense, fortunate time to get turned on. There was a lot to fall in love with in film.

Speaker 3 And also within those films, they all in their ways, without being polemics or anything, felt very, very purpose-driven.

Speaker 3 And I think we all strive to be purpose-driven and want a clarity of why we're doing what we're doing when we're doing it. And I suppose if there's a parallel, it's simply that.

Speaker 3 You know, you want to feel productive. You want to feel you're saying something as an actor or as a filmmaker.

Speaker 3 You're participating in saying something that reflects in a valuable way on the time that you're living in.

Speaker 3 And I think that that's true with anything that anyone does, you know, stepping out into the development world or emergency response, aid,

Speaker 3 whatever one wants to call it.

Speaker 3 Right now, we're in such an active time on the earth in this way.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I think about how for even for me, with my very comfortable life, it seems the sky is falling every day. And then when I try to imagine that through Afghani eyes or Haitian eyes, and

Speaker 3 the list goes on, it's really unimaginable.

Speaker 3 And so

Speaker 3 the only, you know, for me to have purpose in that is to pick up some of the pieces of the sky that are falling and try to get them back in place.

Speaker 1 Does that come out of anger? Like, is that like you should see baby when they run out of almond milk on the set of Ozark? I imagine it's the same sensation, right, Jay? But I mean, does it come out?

Speaker 2 It's more rage than anger. Yes.
I think it's more rage.

Speaker 1 Does it come out of a sense, like, do you feel that like, like when you read like what's going on in, you know, look, I don't want to, we're not a political show where we don't talk, but like, you know, what's going on in Afghanistan where it just feels like this vacuum is being created that is just

Speaker 1 of immense proportions that's just so fucking scary and real. Are those do those moments, does that bolt you up in bed at night and like, fuck, I got to get there, I got to do something?

Speaker 3 I don't know if it's that, Carol. I would say that, yes, there are times where it's alternately, my own involvements are alternately driven by

Speaker 3 what I like to think is an empathy, what I'm certainly aware is a rage,

Speaker 3 a kind of

Speaker 3 as hypocritical as anybody who claims themselves a hunter for justice is typically. You know, I confess I'm a bit of a justice freak, and there's not an awful lot of it going on right now.

Speaker 1 But you talk about like you're like, you know, from my comfortable life, like, here's the problem.

Speaker 1 Everybody expects, like, okay, well, if you want to be mad about that stuff and you want to try to make a difference, then you have to be, your life has to be absolutely impervious to any sort of criticism that you have to live every aspect of your life.

Speaker 1 And it's like, no, fuck that, man. We're all fucking human beings doing our best.
And if we can do well in certain areas, it doesn't mean that we're perfect in every other fucking area.

Speaker 1 And I think we stop celebrating what people do and we're so cynical that all we want to do is instead of focusing on what they do, we focus on the shit on their shortcomings.

Speaker 1 And that is a, that is a world that, that's the world that we live in now. And it's a very specific type of cynicism that exists.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And

Speaker 3 I hope that it doesn't

Speaker 3 create a self-censorship of activism among people and a self-consciousness about that because we are flawed machines

Speaker 3 at best.

Speaker 3 I mean, one of the things when we talk about, you know, it's interesting how this idea of cancel culture has become identified with on partisan lines, but we know that with all of the you know, evolution of thought, all of the very powerful ideas and the way the onion is being,

Speaker 3 you know, appealed back in terms of how we can do better in our world.

Speaker 3 It's got to be better through a flawed lens if it's going to be legitimate.

Speaker 3 And on the other side, the self-righteousness that is demanding perfect machines is just inevitable hypocrisy because

Speaker 3 I can't think of anybody, including myself, who, when you get on a high horse about something, there's not something else someone can tear you down equally for.

Speaker 1 Right, right.

Speaker 2 And we will be right back.

Speaker 1 250 years ago, a promise was made to connect families and friends near and far. And during the holidays, that promise is more important than ever.

Speaker 1 That's why USPS is building a better network to meet your needs with timely deliveries, easy and affordable ways to ship, and everything you need to make your season full of holiday cheer.

Speaker 1 Their purpose is delivering your peace of mind, knowing your love will arrive, bringing joy to all. The United States Postal Service.
Learn more at usps.com slash holidays.

Speaker 1 This is an ad by BetterHelp. Have you ever had someone that you haven't reached out to in a long time and you're just like, you know what, just do it.

Speaker 1 I just did that recently and it was such a wonderful experience. We had a great lunch, a lot of catching up, and I'm so glad we did it.
It was great.

Speaker 1 As the seasons change, shorter days don't have to weigh you down. This season, BetterHelp encourages you to reach out, check in on friends, reconnect with loved ones, and remind them you're there.

Speaker 1 Just like it takes a little courage to send that text or grab coffee with someone you haven't seen in a while, reaching out for therapy can feel difficult too, but it can be worth it.

Speaker 1 It can leave people wondering, why didn't I do this sooner? With over 30,000 therapists worldwide, BetterHelp is one of the leading online therapy platforms. BetterHelp therapists are fully qualified.

Speaker 1 BetterHelp does the initial matching work for you so you can focus on your therapy goals. This month, don't wait to reach out.

Speaker 1 Whether you're checking in on a friend or reaching out to a therapist, BetterHelp makes it easier to take that first step.

Speaker 1 Our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com/slash smartless. That's betterhelp.com/slash smartlist.

Speaker 1 Nothing goes with football like Sonics new pretzel bacon sonic smasher.

Speaker 1 Two hand-smashed Angus beef patties, crispy bacon and onions, plus pub sauce, all on a buttery soft pretzel bun.

Speaker 1 It's perfect for watching beefy linemen, crispy corners, saucy receivers, and buttery smooth quarterbacks. Geez, did they write this for me?

Speaker 1 And together with the original Sonic Smasher, they're forming a new dynasty of burgers. The pretzel bacon Sonic Smasher.
Try it for a limited time.

Speaker 1 Sonic!

Speaker 1 And now, back to the show.

Speaker 2 I'm sure you've answered this before, and I apologize for not having heard the answer or remembering it, but it seems like politics would be a natural pull for you and a draw for you.

Speaker 2 How close have you gotten to seriously considering jumping into that? And does that fluctuate from year to year?

Speaker 3 No, there was

Speaker 3 the Irish playwright, Brendan Behan, once said he was asked that question. He said, I could never be in politics because I only have but one face.

Speaker 1 That's fantastic.

Speaker 3 I think that, you know, for me,

Speaker 3 joking aside, that I just recognize that I would have a much more valuable temperament and support of the things that I do, the way that I'm doing it, than I would as a political leader, which I think takes a more of a 24-7

Speaker 3 focus on unifying in support of things that are going to help people and not have those bouts of rage as as often as

Speaker 3 I do.

Speaker 1 When was that first time, Sean, when you became, for lack of a better word, enlightened?

Speaker 1 When you were an actor and just an actor, was there some, what was the event or what was the thing where you're like, wait a minute, I need, this is bigger than me.

Speaker 1 I need to step out of myself and really grow as a person and start offering myself in that way?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's pretty clear to me that it was

Speaker 3 growing up in a,

Speaker 3 my father had been active both in a formal way in the military during World War II and then also informally socially back stateside. And growing up with a lot of civics discussed at the table.

Speaker 3 You know, that was there.

Speaker 3 And so as I started making my way through this kind of creative life, there's a period of time where you just have find, I found I have just had blinders on for it and really just wanted to understand what acting was about and what I could do as an actor and then and moving along through that then after about a decade of that my first child was born and a year after that two years after that three years after that

Speaker 3 9-11 and I remember My daughter had a little ribbon in her hair and I took her to a local burger stand. I was grabbing a burger and some fries

Speaker 3 and I was just looking at her. This is probably a day or two after

Speaker 3 the planes and all of that nightmare. And it just really landed on me how much

Speaker 3 their world was going to be, you know, something that we had never imagined before in so many ways. And I think that that kicked into gear.

Speaker 3 And so by 2002, I made my first trip to Baghdad, repeated that in 2003,

Speaker 3 the latter trip writing for the San Francisco Chronicle.

Speaker 3 And I think that those engagements, beginning to travel parts of the world that were both legitimately and illegitimately demonized or people who were, and wanting to see, you know, not just what our headlines said here, but what their headlines said, what their people said.

Speaker 3 And I think all of that kind of carries you away. And then finally, it was

Speaker 3 in terms of what led to my organization core, that happened when Katrina hit in New Orleans.

Speaker 3 And I found out by going down there that one wasn't necessarily in authorities' way by going down to lend a hand and that in fact the authorities would embrace any hands they could get.

Speaker 3 And so once I sort of had that

Speaker 3 license to practice,

Speaker 3 it just kind of snowballed from there.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 2 Sean, how do you stay informed? I imagine

Speaker 2 it goes well beyond New York Times, Washington Post, Guardian, MSNBC, and CNN.

Speaker 2 Is there a group of trusted academics that you have kind of a weekly call with? I mean, to the extent that you can reveal any of this stuff,

Speaker 2 but you strike me as somebody that has got a level of information and curiosity that we'd all do better to have some of.

Speaker 3 Well, I would say to the degree that to any degree that that is true, it is principally through a network of friends friends

Speaker 3 around the world who have a front row seat to how the world works. You know, I often find myself in conversation with people

Speaker 3 who have worked in foreign service and have seen the United States

Speaker 3 from the perspective of these other countries.

Speaker 3 And you will find a lot more commonality and thought, whether somebody be Republican or Democrat, but that they have traveled in those worlds, worked in those worlds, offered service in those worlds, I think that you get a much fuller picture of what happens.

Speaker 3 Because we have just a kind of monocultural bent here.

Speaker 3 I do spend a lot of time watching mainstream news, listening to news on the radio, but I do think that the things that that are targeted, the things that I can touch, whether where I have the resources with my organization and so on, and I need to get to the depth of things, then that relies heavily on a network of contacts and all aspects of what it takes to do those things.

Speaker 1 And you talked about CORE, your organization. They made

Speaker 1 the documentary they made, Citizen Pen, right, about CORE. Can you talk a little bit about CORE, about

Speaker 1 what that day-to-day is like for you and what kind of reach you guys are having?

Speaker 3 Yeah, so

Speaker 3 as we know, we had this horrifying earthquake hit again now in the south and in Haiti.

Speaker 3 Our teams went in yesterday to have equipment in today, medical,

Speaker 3 you know, coordinating with a lot of other organizations and organizational leads. And it's a very desperate situation.
The road to get supply in from Port-au-Prince is

Speaker 3 owned by gangs, and so that there's very big security issues getting supply there in any other way than C or Rotary or fixed wing.

Speaker 1 Is there a functioning government as we not as we know it, right? I mean there's no real infrastructure.

Speaker 1 Is that one of the main impediments apart from the destruction from the earthquake?

Speaker 3 Well here's the thing.

Speaker 3 In 2010 the earthquake was epicentered in Laogan right outside of Port-au-Prince and so that pancaked all the government ministries. So literally the seat of power collapsed.

Speaker 3 So there was no one to call because

Speaker 3 they'd perished. And so most of government was gone.
In this case,

Speaker 3 and it will remain to be seen, you know, what's going to be more functional in this logistical challenge and leadership challenge.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 as I'm sure your listeners know, a few weeks ago the president was violently assassinated in a commando raid on his house. Clearly, the country is very politically unstable.

Speaker 3 There had been a last couple of years, a lot of people displaced by criminal activity. Most of that criminal activity in Haiti is paid-for activity.
So you have

Speaker 3 young gangsters being exploited by heavyweights who are trying to push political buttons

Speaker 3 and you get a lot of paid violent activity and kidnapping and so on. So it's a very challenging environment.

Speaker 3 But made,

Speaker 3 you know, I think that when any of us that work in Haiti,

Speaker 3 while there have been some in government that have really,

Speaker 3 been champions and really fought for their country,

Speaker 3 you really find the hope in Haiti

Speaker 3 in the common people.

Speaker 3 So much is said of their resilience, and it's something that it's just so palpable.

Speaker 3 Like I said in the beginning of this conversation,

Speaker 3 when I say the idea of what must this world look like through Haitian eyes, it wouldn't look the same to them as it does to us in the sense of hopelessness. They have a hope.
They have

Speaker 3 a real strength of spirit.

Speaker 1 And so they'd have to, right? Otherwise you because the alternative is just collapse.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, fuck man.

Speaker 1 I'm going to take Sean's question. What do you do for fun, Sean?

Speaker 1 I was just going to go. I was being kind of glib, but what do you do for fun? Like, what do you do in a world that I get it? It's there's so much.

Speaker 1 What are the things that do bring you, I know you get a lot of joy and a lot of and it to help out and be so active, but what are the things when you just want to fucking shut it down?

Speaker 3 well i i guess on the on the static side i like to write on on the active side uh i love i've always uh been a surfer and loved surfing i have done less of it in the last couple of years uh with all that's been going on than than at any other time of my life and i i even you know each morning as i wake up these days it's like is this the day i'm going to get back in the water

Speaker 3 and i and turning 61 next week i had better get back in the water soon

Speaker 1 You're going to do it. Listen, we're going to come over.
We're going to celebrate. We're going to bring some E.
We're going to go back to like the year 2000.

Speaker 1 All four of us are going to do E, and we're just going to fucking let it all hang out. Oh, my God.
Just take it, let our shoulders drop.

Speaker 2 Both of those things,

Speaker 2 writing and surfing

Speaker 2 sound

Speaker 2 pretty sane and responsible.

Speaker 2 What's the stupidest shit that you're doing? I mean, like, is it like a bad reality TV show? Is it like driving fast? Is it eating

Speaker 2 cookies and cake? I mean, like,

Speaker 2 what's the idiot part of you doing?

Speaker 3 Well, I think that, you know,

Speaker 3 you can watch too much cable news. There's no question about that.
Jason.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And it can, because I think that there's a thing we have called a nervous system that we want to protect.

Speaker 1 Yes. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah.
I literally, so Sean, you need to know.

Speaker 1 So last week we were out east and we just got back, but last week we're out east and Jason and his wife and the kids came and stayed with us and me and my boys. And

Speaker 1 so Jason and I are both early risers and he would come, he'd come in and like, I'd be making a coffee and taking the dog out and stuff. And Jason would come in at like 6.37.

Speaker 1 And the first, before he even turns on the coffee machine, he turns on the fucking cable news, which I never do. I stopped a long time ago because it makes me feel bad.
Yeah. Right.

Speaker 1 And I was like, oh, I got to protect the way I feel like. It's like turning the light on and then he turns it it on.
And it's on all day. And we're out in the East Coast and it's a beautiful day.

Speaker 1 Let's go to the beach. And he wants to go and do all this stuff, but he needs the soundtrack that is eating away at his.

Speaker 2 Well, but

Speaker 2 where it makes you feel bad, it makes me feel good that these incredible journalists from my preference is MSNBC, where these guys are shaping these opinions and articulating them in such a way where it helps a dumb-dumb like me kind of get it out.

Speaker 2 And I like the way they take down some of these nincum poops that they're having to work, you know,

Speaker 2 next to and alongside. And it releases my

Speaker 1 nincum poop. We're going to have to beep it and then everything.
Jesus, fuck. Wait, what the fuck is this? Like the 50s?

Speaker 1 Sean,

Speaker 1 back to Will's suggestion of us taking E and going surfing. Okay, well, let's make it mushrooms.
Let's make it mushrooms. Anyway, it's next week on his 61st birthday.
Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 1 I mean, having played one of the most famous donors ever in the history of the world, what is like the worst drug trip you've ever been on and what is it?

Speaker 3 Well, it's funny. When I played that part, I had never done any drug at all

Speaker 3 and didn't

Speaker 3 until after that.

Speaker 3 But for sure, the worst was

Speaker 3 I had taken a 21-hour drive direct from New York to New Orleans. checked into a hotel and thought, okay, it's a good idea to get something to eat before I go to bed.
It was about 11 o'clock at night.

Speaker 3 Make a long story short, I walked into a bar where I got dosed seven hits of liquid acid and went on a 35-hour relentless trip to hell.

Speaker 3 That's not an experience I'd like to repeat.

Speaker 1 Worst place to do it to. What a fucking nightmare.
Oh, man.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 that's a place you just can't get out of.

Speaker 2 You feel like you're broken, that you're never going to come back, right? Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, buddy. Have you ever shown up at a place like in that sort of, in that emergency time? Like, I mean, your boots on the ground, you get there, and everything's, the world's falling apart.

Speaker 1 And then, like, some local there is like, Spicoli's here, we're okay. Like, you know what I mean? Like, has that ever happened? Have you ever had a weird moment, like, in a desperate time?

Speaker 3 It hasn't. Well, the only, you know, the only place, for example, in Haiti, there's wind prior to 2010, if they saw movies at all,

Speaker 3 movie theaters came, collapsed in 2010,

Speaker 3 they were interested in the Rambos and action movies. And so you never got any distribution of the films that, kind of films that I'd done.

Speaker 3 You didn't have a lot of people with laptop computers watching things. It was nothing like that.
So I don't have a high visibility at all in Haiti, even today, as an actor.

Speaker 3 Interesting. The only, I'm going to say, exotic place where I was taken.

Speaker 3 off guard by that kind of recognition was, forgive me not being able to come up with the year, but it was in the week preceding the election called that appointment of Ahmadinejad in Iran.

Speaker 3 And I'd gone, again, for the San Fran Francisco Chronicle to write a piece on that election.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 typically when I go to a place that's really

Speaker 3 new to me, I like to,

Speaker 3 depending upon what time that airplane lands, I like to get up very early in the morning and just take a long walk to kind of absorb the place.

Speaker 3 And I had had, and I wrote about this, a kind of sense of Iran as this sort of doom and gloom and chant

Speaker 3 place which, you know, we'd heard all we'd heard about here in the States.

Speaker 3 And in fact, it was, you know, the people were so hip. They were so aware of American movies.

Speaker 3 I think the first thing that they talked to me about was 21 Grams, which had the most sex and drugs of any movie I probably ever did. And they were, you know, oh, we love that movie.

Speaker 3 So was uh that was the most surprising uh the people there are are are extraordinary clearly they have a horror show and leadership but uh but there are you know really extraordinary people in Iran so Sean you turning 61 us kind of right on your heels if you're like us or me at least

Speaker 2 you know we're we're we're halfway okay let's say um i mean do

Speaker 1 are you living to a hundred sorry i we've never talked about this You're living to 100?

Speaker 2 I'm shooting for it.

Speaker 2 Do you start thinking about, well,

Speaker 2 all four of us have been very fortunate that we've gotten a lot of things done that we probably wanted to get done? Certainly, Sean, you seem to have

Speaker 2 done so many great things. Do you think it about this second half? Does something jump to the front of your mind as something you really want to get done before it's all over?

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 my wife is a significantly younger woman than I am a man, and she doesn't have much tolerance for me, considering that I'm on the second half.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 3 publicly, I don't know what I'll say about that. But yes, certainly.

Speaker 1 Sean just looked over his shoulder, by the way.

Speaker 3 Certainly, one wants to, you know,

Speaker 3 I guess I measure it trying to be a better dad every day

Speaker 3 and make sure that

Speaker 3 I, on the last day,

Speaker 3 I have as little shame as possible.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I get that too.

Speaker 1 I remember, I don't know, when was the last time you talked about Falcon and the Snowman? Was it been a minute?

Speaker 3 Been a minute, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I remember that movie. I loved that movie, man.
I was like, I'm 10 years, like Jason, I'm about 10 years younger than you. And I remember that movie came out.
I was about 14.

Speaker 1 And I was like, fuck, that's so fucking cool. Talk to me a little bit about that.
because I remember that was right around, like, that was

Speaker 1 who, who, I forget who directed that film.

Speaker 3 It was John Schlesinger.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was such a, it was such a sophisticated movie in a way. Like, it was a, it was a really, you know, that's a true film as opposed to movie.

Speaker 1 That's one of those movies that I think I reserve the word. But I mean, that was a great movie.
Can you talk? Was that a good experience for you, that movie?

Speaker 3 John was an extraordinary film director. You know, he had made Midnight Cowboy, Marathon, Man, the Day of the Locust,

Speaker 3 Far from the Madding Crowd. I mean,

Speaker 3 he was, and he was very diverse. He also directed opera, theater.

Speaker 3 And so I walked into that movie as a gigantic fan. And in the period after making the movie, John and I got along great.

Speaker 3 We didn't have a good relationship during the making of the film because there was a sort of,

Speaker 3 I had a real devotion to

Speaker 3 bringing the character out very much in line, which would not always be the case, but in that case, very much as close as I could get to who the real guy was.

Speaker 3 And by that, I mean, you know, physically, vocally, all of it. And John was interested in a more impressionistic view of it.
So we kind of...

Speaker 3 Like butted heads a little bit? Yeah, butted heads a little bit on that.

Speaker 3 But that said, you know, to be whatever I was, about 22, 23 years old, and to have the opportunity to work with John Schlesinger and Alan Davio and then my great friend Timothy Hutton on the second thing that we did together.

Speaker 3 You know, it's a very memorable one. And also Steve Zalian, who wrote the script, who was down there.
And we shot most of the film in Mexico City.

Speaker 3 And so even that part of it, being able to spend time in Mexico, which I'd only ever gotten down to Rosarito before with a surfboard and never

Speaker 3 been down in Mexico City before that. And it was quite a great experience.

Speaker 1 And that was right. Of course, you and Timothy Hutton had done taps together.
And then this was you guys together.

Speaker 1 I remember, it's always, I've always remembered that, you know, because there was a lot of press about it back, even way back then, that you guys were great friends.

Speaker 1 And then you guys went and did this film. I don't know.
It just always stops. I always loved that movie.
There's no real question there other than I just love that fucking movie.

Speaker 3 Which is also what I do have nostalgia when I hear the David Bowie Pat Mathini track. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 3 Not

Speaker 1 So good.

Speaker 1 We'll be right back. Say hello to the all-new Alexa Plus and see how Alexa can do so much more for you.
Need last-minute concert tickets?

Speaker 3 Craving your favorite restaurant?

Speaker 1 Just sit back, relax, and talk naturally.

Speaker 3 Alexa's on it. It remembers what you love, anticipates what you need, and makes it all happen.

Speaker 3 Whether you're using Echo, Fire TV, or any compatible device, Alexa Plus brings thousands of possibilities to life. Ready whenever inspiration strikes.
Amazon.com slash new Alexa.

Speaker 1 Hey, all you underwearers. Are you sick of feeling bounced around? Have you got a bad case of jugglers jock?

Speaker 1 Is your junk drawer on life support? Well, Duluth Trading Company is here to get you buck naked.

Speaker 1 Since 1989, Duluth Trading Company has been engineering unders and workwear to help tackle your toughest tasks.

Speaker 1 Everything from underwater wielding to botanical gardening to excruciating Hollywood lunch meetings. Duluth Trading's buck naked underwear, life-affirming.

Speaker 1 Doesn't matter if you're working overtime, golfing 36 holes, or dragging your co-hosts through a podcast. The no-pinch, no stink, no-sweat construction keeps you comfortable.

Speaker 1 And the crotch-cradling bullpen pouch, the epitome of support. Duluth keeps me super comfortable.
Every time I'm wearing it, I feel fully. supported.

Speaker 1 So if you've got a rear end and you're ready to go buck naked, visit duluthetrading.com or shop in store today.

Speaker 1 One of the hardest parts about B2B marketing is reaching the right audience. So when you want to reach the right professionals, use LinkedIn ads.

Speaker 1 LinkedIn has grown to a network of over 1 billion professionals, and that's where it stands apart from other ad buys.

Speaker 1 You can target your buyers by job title, industry, company, role, seniority, skills, company revenue. LinkedIn will even give you an extra $250 credit on your next campaign so you can try it yourself.

Speaker 1 Just go to linkedin.com/slash smartlist. That's linkedin.com/slash smartlist.
Terms and conditions apply only on LinkedIn ads.

Speaker 2 Sean, where do you stand on that?

Speaker 2 Going back to you having a conversation, a creative negotiation with the director, where do you stand on that, especially now having directed since you went through that situation with Schlesinger?

Speaker 2 Where do you stand on whose character is it? Is it the actor's character or is it the director's character?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 how have you found your flexibility

Speaker 1 adjusting? Bateman, are you trying to start a fight?

Speaker 1 What are you trying to get him going?

Speaker 2 But I just, I mean, you know, well, I'll let you answer it. I won't answer my own question.
Go ahead.

Speaker 3 Well, I think it cuts both ways because, you know, my sense of working in the theater is that the director's principal job is to wean the actor out of dependence on the director.

Speaker 3 You know, you've got to at some point let those horses run together once they've got their coordinated interests in line to tell the story.

Speaker 3 In film it's different, but I think that if you're not able to

Speaker 3 let the actor own that character, then you probably cast the wrong actor. Now

Speaker 3 there's variances on that where there are times where

Speaker 3 a director may understand and be able to push you to another level of the same gap or to make you

Speaker 3 revisit some of the choices that you made. But

Speaker 3 you certainly want the guiding energy on a set is that that actor speaks for that character.

Speaker 3 I think as an actor, we're kind of the designated bodyguard of the character we're playing.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and

Speaker 2 I mean, you know,

Speaker 2 the challenge comes with, you know, people who are given a part as opposed to audition for a part.

Speaker 2 And so you don't really know what that actor is going to do, what the version of that character they're going to be performing until it's about 20 minutes from shooting.

Speaker 3 You're saying it sucks to work with stars.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, you kind of, a lot of directors have to kind of take what they get. And if you're a director like me, that's a good thing because I've got a real light touch with actors.

Speaker 2 I just assuming they're going to give me the best that they can give.

Speaker 2 And then your job is to see, okay what version do they want to play of this character and i got to help them kind of keep it on the on the road whereas you know i'll work with some directors where all their notes you get the sense all their notes are coming from a place of boy how am i going to get this actor to play the part the way that i've seen it all the way through pre-production uh even when i first read the script or developing it with the writer or whatever and that's just to me that's a just a false negative that a director will put on an actor because the audience hasn't read the script.

Speaker 2 They've got, they don't have the preconceived notion that director has.

Speaker 2 And now you're asking the actor to go into areas that they're not instinctually driven towards. And

Speaker 2 it can yield a real clanky thing. So it's great to hear you say that.

Speaker 3 There's a kind of approach that is a win-in-doubt do-nothing approach that sometimes frames this conversation for me.

Speaker 3 I once had a conversation with Marlon Brando where he said this great thing because there have been plenty of times where just notwithstanding being an actor or a director, as a film audience, there are plenty of times where I was so moved by something an actor did.

Speaker 3 And then going back,

Speaker 3 I'm watching it again, I still so moved, I couldn't find what the actor did.

Speaker 3 And sometimes, as Marlon said, when you have good writing, when you have good directing, sometimes the job is not getting in the audience's way.

Speaker 3 that they will do a lot of the work of how that story is telling itself.

Speaker 3 And so all of these approaches, I do think that, you know, directors who deny themselves the ability to be surprised by what their actors bring are doing themselves in the project a disservice.

Speaker 3 But there are times that

Speaker 3 it goes back and forth, that it's just that you can get a lot of guidance from a good director as well.

Speaker 1 Do you ever want to go back and do a big fat comedy? Just do one big, stupid, heisty, bad comedy.

Speaker 3 You know, I have not been offered a lot of those.

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 3 Really? And

Speaker 3 yeah, I think as I got older, my face became more disturbing and less

Speaker 1 comedy.

Speaker 3 I don't know what it is, but I just haven't, you know, when I've gotten to do a comedy, I've really enjoyed it.

Speaker 3 And certainly I would be as interested in a comedy as I would in anything.

Speaker 1 Sean Hayes, do you think you'll ever do a comedy? You know, I knew you were going to ask that, so thank you.

Speaker 1 It just depends. It just depends on what it's about and how deep I can find that guy.
You know what I was just thinking?

Speaker 1 Sean must be just basking in, because we're asking all these really important questions, then we keep saying, and then asking Sean, and then Hayes, for a moment, has these nanoseconds where he's like, they're asking me, and do they know me?

Speaker 1 And we've been friends for 20 years. Why is he asking?

Speaker 1 Right. I never get asked those deep questions.

Speaker 1 But, you know, so, so, Sean Pan, you're now you've got, like you say, you're 61 and you've got a lot on your plate for a, for a guy who claims that he's in the sort of the second half or whatever.

Speaker 1 You don't see, there's no kind of, I mean, I kind of call it BS. You're kind of right in your zone right now, kind of doing it all more than ever.

Speaker 2 Listener, you got to know.

Speaker 2 We're looking at this guy right now. This Sean Penn,

Speaker 2 this guy is pretty smoking, guys.

Speaker 1 Sean,

Speaker 2 what's going on?

Speaker 1 What's the secret? First of all, Baby wants to know what's the secret. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, are you talking about how I look?

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Well, the secret is framing in light.

Speaker 2 No, no, there's no ring light there. There's nothing.
I mean, you look crazy healthy.

Speaker 2 Are you hanging out with Laird a bunch? I mean, what's going on?

Speaker 3 No, I wish I was.

Speaker 3 Getting myself back into

Speaker 3 a post-COVID fitness has commenced.

Speaker 3 I've begun that work, but only begun it.

Speaker 1 What is that? What is that workout for you?

Speaker 3 Well, most it starts with running, either on the road or on a treadmill. And then once I've got myself, you know, run out, then I'll jump off that treadmill or off the road into a weight workout and

Speaker 3 try not to smoke as many cigarettes

Speaker 1 in the corner. And listener, just so you know, he hasn't never had, not had a cigarette in his hand.
Darn this stuff.

Speaker 1 I won't admit to smoking.

Speaker 1 I won't admit to it, but I'm with you.

Speaker 3 I call it job security for oncologists.

Speaker 1 Oh, my God.

Speaker 1 Don't say that. Wait, Sean, what are you watching right now? Do you enjoy a streaming thing? What do you do?

Speaker 1 You want anything to do with it? So you listen to music instead?

Speaker 3 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 I just saw

Speaker 3 Summer of Soul, which is incredible. If anybody hadn't seen it, it is really incredible.

Speaker 1 What is that? That's Questlove's movie. Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's amazing. Thrilling.

Speaker 3 On a filmmaking level and the story, it really was something.

Speaker 3 I'm anxious for succession to start back up.

Speaker 1 Oh, nice. Sure.

Speaker 3 And I'll blank on things. Oh, I just saw Kate Winslet was just so great in this thing.

Speaker 1 Mayor of Eastwood.

Speaker 3 Yes, exactly. Yeah, so I will, I try not to get hooked by these things because,

Speaker 3 you know, I'm pretty, I'm as susceptible to that addiction probably as anybody, but never, never got there because I put it off. I didn't see a streaming show until COVID.

Speaker 3 My wife turned me on to something.

Speaker 1 What do you think about it?

Speaker 1 As a medium, how do you like it?

Speaker 3 Well, I don't like what it's doing to film.

Speaker 3 I think that there's something, you know, anything that creates more content, democratizes the ability to make film, gives us more diversity, being able to see film from all over the world, that's got a great part to it.

Speaker 3 But like any de facto town square, if it gets too crowded, then

Speaker 3 nothing special and it gets to be a lot of sharp elbows.

Speaker 3 And so I'm very torn about it. I would be less torn about it if we

Speaker 3 in acting and filmmaking stood up to our financial

Speaker 3 lords and said, you know,

Speaker 3 you have to preserve exclusive theatrical releases of films if we are to do this other stuff.

Speaker 3 I would like to see that movement. But there is something, as a filmmaker, I think I just

Speaker 3 fell in love with the girl that is the cinema, the big dark room. So I don't know that I would want to work as a director to that end, but I certainly can get caught up as an audience.

Speaker 3 And there's some miraculous work that's being done on television. There's no question about it.

Speaker 1 Bateman,

Speaker 1 you ruined film, Bateman, and then Sean Penn just confirmed it, and I'm with him. And by the way, it should be noted, whatever Sean Penn's opinion is, is also my opinion.
It should just be noted.

Speaker 1 Go ahead, baby. Go ahead.

Speaker 2 What about? So, listener, there's a guitar over his right shoulder.

Speaker 2 Where does music sit for you in this world? Is it a hobby? Is it a passion?

Speaker 2 Is it your next career?

Speaker 1 What's it do for you?

Speaker 3 It's the passion that I can't do. That's one of my son's guitars.

Speaker 3 I am a terrible guitar player.

Speaker 3 If I sang, you'd all be dead.

Speaker 3 But

Speaker 3 it is the thing that's the best medicine for me is listening to music.

Speaker 3 I'm a very music-dependent director in film.

Speaker 3 Again, going back to that era that I grew up in,

Speaker 3 whether it was The Graduate or Harold Maud or those films that used songs as part of the storytelling or as characters in the story.

Speaker 3 I have a great affection for that kind of cinema. And I love working with musicians.
I've had some really great collaborations that have been super enriching.

Speaker 2 Yeah, tell me about working with Eddie Vetter

Speaker 2 on the last film. I'm such a huge, huge fan of his and I know you guys are close.

Speaker 2 What was that like?

Speaker 3 Well, Ed and I had worked on, well, we'd worked on a couple of films

Speaker 3 together in the past, but then significantly into the wild.

Speaker 3 And, you know, he really became the hitter that put the ball over the fence in the last inning. And

Speaker 3 we had such a great experience. And so when I started Flag Day, one of my go-to things is I send Ed the script and say, what do you think?

Speaker 3 It had been from the early stages my sense that the leading voice of it, of the songs that would play, would be female, because it's a female-driven story.

Speaker 3 But that there was a balance between the father and the daughter where I felt that I could insert male voices at times.

Speaker 3 And Ed brought Glenn Hansert in, who's a great, you know, did the songs for once. Love that guy.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 Brilliant songwriter.

Speaker 3 And then it was my daughter who I, because I was listening to so many great female singers and singer-songwriters, and all the usual suspects, and then a lot of people I was turned on to by others.

Speaker 3 But I couldn't find a voice that just seemed harmonious with my daughter's emotional spirit.

Speaker 3 And then I asked her, and she suggested Cat Power. And

Speaker 3 so

Speaker 3 Ed had known her. And so Ed became kind of the, as well as a singer-songwriter on the movie, he became kind of the curator of the song, Bank, on that thing, and worked with all of them.

Speaker 3 And they've got a record coming out of it, which I'm looking forward to hearing, because it's not only the songs that are in the movie, but songs, I suppose, inspired by the story.

Speaker 2 Did he score it as well? Is he also the composer?

Speaker 3 No, the composer is my longtime collaborator and friend, Joseph Vittarelli. So

Speaker 3 he did the instrumentals, but we at times borrowed from each other's themes

Speaker 3 and took some pieces of instrumental from the songs and layered it in so that it was, you know, it was kind of a quilt we put together.

Speaker 2 I can't wait to see it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, no, shit. God, that sounds so cool.
I've never been able to describe anything that I've done like that in such an eloquent way that sounds so makes people want to listen to it or watch it.

Speaker 1 Listen, Sean, when was the last time you got in a fist fight? Be real. Be honest.
When was the last time?

Speaker 3 It's been a long time. Yeah.
It's been a long time.

Speaker 2 It's fifth grade for me. I know you're not asking, but it was fifth grade.

Speaker 1 Is it really fifth grade?

Speaker 2 And I swung and I missed.

Speaker 1 Is it fifth grade?

Speaker 3 Fifth grade. I extended fifth grade for many years in my own psyche.

Speaker 1 You swung and you missed as a metaphor for my career. And hey, Sean Penn,

Speaker 1 you know, first of all, before we let you go, I have to say thank you for the pay.

Speaker 2 You don't need to specify on the Sean, Hayes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're the one who doesn't need to. God, Jesus.

Speaker 2 I'm so sorry, Penn.

Speaker 1 Go ahead, Sean. Okay.
Hayes. Sean Penn, I have to say,

Speaker 1 I have to say, thank you for being such an incredible voice and advocate for the LGBTQ community. Your portrayal of Harvey Milk was incredible to me and to millions of people around the world.

Speaker 1 So thank you for that for such an incredible, incredible portrayal of an incredible man.

Speaker 3 I was very lucky to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 I read for it. I'm still waiting to hear.

Speaker 1 And then the other thing was when I was a kid, we spell our names the same, S-E-A-N. And all my teachers, when I was a kid, would be like, Cian

Speaker 1 Hayes? Like, they didn't understand it until Fast Times came out. And then people are like, I go, you've never heard of Sean Penn?

Speaker 1 And then, so, thank you for allowing me in the Midwest, teaching people how to spell how to say my name. So, I appreciate it.

Speaker 3 I feel for you that it was Sean Penn and that character. But, you know, as a guy who grew up with Sean Connery and James Bond,

Speaker 1 and that's the other thing. I was like, you've never heard of Sean Connery or Sean Penn? So, thank you for that.
And congratulations to all the educators from Illinois. Thank you for

Speaker 1 not knowing how to say the fucking name Sean Penn.

Speaker 1 I agree. I was like, how do you guys not know that? What a blistering indictment.
Listen, Champan, man, thank you so much for joining us. What an absolute thrill and honor to have you on, man.

Speaker 3 Let me just say, you all three are such extraordinarily talented guys. And

Speaker 3 when I heard you were doing a podcast, whenever I first heard about it,

Speaker 3 I thought to myself, I'm going to have to figure out how to use this podcast app. And I still haven't.

Speaker 3 So this is the this is essentially the first time i got to hear it and it was uh and and it's a lot of fun and i'll look forward to listening more and uh uh watching for you guys on the screen uh

Speaker 2 super super great group thank you sean appreciate it don't let it slow down anything you're doing please keep doing everything you're doing thank you for all that stuff and uh and being a nice north star for

Speaker 1 trailblazer thank you Thank you. Fucking all right.
Take care, Sean. Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you very much for coming on, pal.

Speaker 1 You bet. Bye.
My pleasure.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 1 The laptop drop.

Speaker 2 Yeah. The laptop drop.

Speaker 2 Who was the first one that did that?

Speaker 1 Well, the listener will have to. Well, the listener will have to tell us because they'll remember.
So

Speaker 1 what we're describing is when we say goodbye, a lot of people just kind of hang out still. And then we say, offline, thank you for being.

Speaker 1 But a lot of people are now people just starting to actually just close their laptop. He's the third guest we've had who have just closed.

Speaker 1 They say bye to us and then they just close their laptop because they're not going to be able to do it. Because you know what?

Speaker 1 Because he's a a director and he's amazing, you know, because he's smart and he's like, It's very telling, yeah, it's very telling. It's like that's the quickest way to shut off the fucking thing.

Speaker 1 If I close, I don't have to go and like, is the window closed? And blah, blah, blah. You know, one time I met Sean Penn one other time in my life.
I forgot to say this to him.

Speaker 1 And he came up to me because he just saw me do something. Again, you can just say, Sean,

Speaker 1 we know that you're not talking about yourself. Go ahead.

Speaker 1 So he said, He said to me, He comes up to me backstage at this fundraiser thing I did. He goes, goes, you're fucking nuts.

Speaker 1 And I go, I'm fucking nuts. You're fucking nuts.
And then we laughed and we had a good time.

Speaker 1 And because he saw me do this crazy, it's too long of a story, but I did this promo thing for NBC and I was insane in it. And, but it was such a great compliment.

Speaker 1 We laughed about it. And he was, but that's the only other time I met him.
He was so kind and sweet and normal.

Speaker 2 Oh, what a great decision not to share that with him when he's on our way. I know, I know.
Way to save it till when he's gone.

Speaker 1 Way to go.

Speaker 1 God, i i i met him i met him one time i was out i was out this is a this is going to be a crazy a weird ass crew you ready for the crew uh i'm hanging at late night one night at the chateau marmont years ago and it's me and krasinski and danielle craig hold for applause hold for applause oh james font

Speaker 1 and then sean was there with a friend he was at a table over and he just it was like late on a sunday night i remember it was after the super bowl weirdly enough and he said hey you guys mind if we join you were like no come on so we sat down and we had the greatest conversation and of course because we just had our conversation, he's so cool and he's so articulate.

Speaker 1 And he's got so many great ideas and thoughts and cool, you know, his whole approach to everyday perspectives. And, and then at one point, he was talking about, and we were having this conversation.

Speaker 1 He said to me, you know, like, look, man, it's like what you do. And like, you know, for you and for me as artists, the two of us as artists, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 1 And I was like, and I'm just nodding along like, uh-huh, uh-huh. And then we're leaving as we were driving home.

Speaker 1 Krasinski goes, we're in the car and he kind of cried and goes, Did fucking Sean Penn just refer to you and him as artists in the same? And I go, Yes, dude. Okay.

Speaker 1 So, yes. So, don't you fucking fuck with me.
All right. He and I are again.

Speaker 2 Another story that would have been good to bring up while he's.

Speaker 1 I didn't want to.

Speaker 2 Now, I'll do, I'll do my story that I should have brought up while he was with us.

Speaker 1 Let's call him back.

Speaker 2 I was shooting something on the sidewalk in Manhattan. It was a night shoot.
So it was, I don't know, it must have been like 3:30, 4:30 in the morning. It was very, very, very nice.

Speaker 1 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Speaker 1 Since when did Hogan family shoot at night?

Speaker 1 Oh, Will.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 we're on the sidewalk. It's like, I don't know, like West Village or something like that.
No cars coming down the street.

Speaker 2 And all the lights, all the cameras, everything is out on the sidewalk. So if you were driving by, you could see that we were shooting a movie.
Obviously, we're right there on the curb.

Speaker 2 And here comes one lonely little cab comes ripping down the, and it stops right in front of the set. So he's like six feet from us.
And the back door opens and out walks Sean Penn.

Speaker 2 And he just gets up. We think, oh, he's he must live around here.

Speaker 2 He just gets up, stands out of the cab, looks at the whole shooting crew, there's about 150 of us, and he just holds his arms out and he goes, New York City, huh?

Speaker 1 Am I right?

Speaker 1 Gets back in the cab, hits it. No.
Just keep going. Wow.

Speaker 2 He was basically just saying, like, you guys are shooting a movie. I'm a movie star.
It's four in the morning.

Speaker 1 How about it? Huh? Is this great or what? And keep it.

Speaker 2 greatest thing ever.

Speaker 1 Wait a second. Of all the three stories that should have been told to him, that was the best one by a fucking mile, which makes you so much dumber again.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Bye.

Speaker 1 Country mile. Bye.
He just, oh, I had such a good one. Okay, go ahead.
Go ahead. So, wait, Jason, are you just saying he? Don't waste it.
By the way, don't waste it. No, this is perfect.

Speaker 1 Wait, so Jason, are you just saying that he drove up as a fly? Bye!

Speaker 1 Yeah, he drove right by the sand.

Speaker 1 That's the first three. It's the first time we've had three buys.
It's a tricky.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 1 Smart

Speaker 1 Plus.

Speaker 1 Smartless is 100% organic and artisanally handcrafted by Bennett Barbaco, Michael Grant Terry, and Rob Armjarff.

Speaker 1 The next episode will be out in a week wherever you listen to podcasts, or you can listen to it right now early on Amazon Music or by subscribing to Wondry Plus in the Wondery app.

Speaker 3 Smart Plus.

Speaker 2 When choosing a home services professional, trust is everything.

Speaker 2 At Service Champions, we're committed to providing the highest level of service every time, and we have the track record to prove it.

Speaker 2 Our certified technicians have been the trusted choice of Northern California homeowners for over 22 years.

Speaker 1 Take care of both your furnace and and water heater for only $68.

Speaker 2 Take advantage of this special today. Call 8005CHAMPS or visit servicechampions.net.

Speaker 1 You know those moments when you're trying to work through a complex problem and you can't stop until you found the answer?

Speaker 1 That's where Claude comes in, the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough.

Speaker 1 Whether you're planning something big, researching a topic you're curious about, or just trying to work through a problem, Claude matches your level of curiosity.

Speaker 1 Try Claude for free at claude.ai slash smartless and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.