"Joy Reid"

Speaker 1 Wondering how you can invest in yourself and work towards a goal that will last? Rosetta Stone makes it easy to turn a few minutes a day into real language progress.

Speaker 1 Scotty and I are here in England still, right in London. And before we leave, we're talking about going to Paris while we're over here because it's like, when are we going to be over here again?

Speaker 1 And so we might take a day just to go over to Paris. And we talked about how great it would be to use Rosetta Stone to learn just a little bit of French before we go.
It's French, right?

Speaker 1 And now Smartlist listeners can grab Rosetta Stone's lifetime membership for 50% off. Visit rosettastone.com slash Smartlist to get started and claim your 50% off today.

Speaker 1 Nobody wants to spend the holiday season clicking from one site to the next to get their hands on the best brands. But who knew Walmart has the the top brands we all love?

Speaker 1 Like the big names that your friends and family actually want, and all in one place: Nespresso, Nintendo, Apple, you name it. Get the brands everyone loves at prices you'll love at Walmart.
Who knew?

Speaker 1 Go to walmart.com or download the app to get all your gifts this season.

Speaker 1 Guys, I just wanted to say welcome. I'm so excited that you guys came here today on Armchair Expert.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and we're happy to be here.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I love the way, Bateman.
I love you. You're so easygoing, and you just don't seem like anything really bothers you.

Speaker 1 And Sean, Sean, you're such a funny guy, and you always bring humor to every situation. But I reserve most of my disdain is for Barney, for Arnett.
Oh, Barney Arnett. Yeah, he's a bit of a deadweight.

Speaker 1 Hey, Dax, hang on. Yeah, Will, what do you think about all that? I just, well, I'm finding it a little

Speaker 1 put off by it. I don't mean that you're deadweight.
I just mean that, like, you know, just seems like those other two do a lot more heavy lifting.

Speaker 2 Well, it's true, but we love to have him. He's kind of like our mascot.

Speaker 1 If I close my eyes, it's like Dax and Will are here. It's simultaneously the best Dax Shepard impression and the worst.
And I hope he's not insulted because I do it all out of love. I love the guy.

Speaker 1 I love, love, love the guy. So listen, listener, the bad news is you're not listening to Armchair Expert.
The worst news is you are listening to Smartless. Can I just say this?

Speaker 1 Can I just do it because I'm here? Do you mind? Please. Welcome to Smartless.
Thank you. Smart

Speaker 1 Less.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 1 Less.

Speaker 1 Hey, guys. How about global warming?

Speaker 1 Is that a thing? Great way to start a show, Sean. What do you want? Everybody to be happy?

Speaker 1 Just trying to remind everybody how happy and great everything is.

Speaker 2 Are you complaining because the air conditioning doesn't work in your mansion?

Speaker 1 Yeah, what are you worried about?

Speaker 1 It's hot. It's hot.

Speaker 1 That's your explanation.

Speaker 2 It's summer. You know, it's summer.

Speaker 2 But there is

Speaker 2 global warming is real.

Speaker 1 Is that what you want to tell our listeners?

Speaker 2 It is real.

Speaker 1 If there was a doubt. Yeah.
No, it is real. We believe it.
And also, get vaccinated. I mean, we might as well if we're doing this.
I mean... go down the list.

Speaker 1 No, I'm just saying, if we're going down the list, I mean, these are things that I believe that are true. And we're not a place.

Speaker 2 The world is not flat either, but I have not independently verified that.

Speaker 1 That's another thing I'm hearing.

Speaker 2 I mean, I got up in an airplane the other day, and it still looked pretty flat, but I am hearing from people I respect, though, that if you got up even higher, it is round.

Speaker 1 Speaking about flat, you know, did you guys watch the Jeff Bezos thing that went off? You know, no, wait, listen, I'm serious.

Speaker 1 The rocket thing, right?

Speaker 1 I did not know this, that when the rocket, because we when we watched the thing go off, it looks like it's going straight up, but scientifically speaking, it's actually going parallel to the Earth.

Speaker 2 Well, after a bit, after a bit, it starts to tilt a little bit.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it goes right away. Sean's right there.
It goes right away.

Speaker 1 And the thing, the idea is, if you think about it, the way they wait.

Speaker 2 I'm the fucking rocket scientist. Let's hear it.

Speaker 1 Jesus. Rockets go sideways.

Speaker 2 Sure. Right.

Speaker 1 because it has to do with gravity. I thought it went straight up.
No.

Speaker 2 So we've covered space. We've covered what else in this, in the global warming.
These are all issues. You know, I do learn a lot from you guys.
You know,

Speaker 2 I need to sort of absorb knowledge in some other way than academia because as you both know, that part of my life was cut a little short.

Speaker 1 Yeah. How short, by the way?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 I got to the end of high school

Speaker 2 except for two of my final four finals.

Speaker 1 So no college.

Speaker 2 Two tests short.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 And a high school diploma short.

Speaker 1 You know, I was thinking, Jason, about you, because we've talked about you and your fascination with school and with college. We've talked about it over a couple of episodes, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that I want to know if it's hard.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you were worried that's hard. And I'm surprised.
I'm surprised that you would be scared because I would think it's just more information.

Speaker 1 And we know that you have a propensity, you have an ability to

Speaker 2 just sound it out to retain yeah so you know how to retain i mean look at your face right now oh see you know sean you just need to wait a little while and then you'll be hurt you know you just got to be patient oh i've been i've been patient for 20 years and then it'll land it'll hit you right in the gut your retention is off the charts well let me tell you something with the heat wave that we're dealing with uh here in los angeles it is great for my water weight problems um is it as hot uh where you are, Will, there in Long Island?

Speaker 1 It is. It's hot.
It's hot here right now, and it's very moist. Yeah, it's moist out here, too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's humid. I would much rather freeze than sweat.

Speaker 1 How about you, fellas? Yeah, a thousand percent. Wait, so hang on.
What do we

Speaker 1 do? What are we doing?

Speaker 2 We're talking a bunch of bullshit. Let's get into something that's worth listening to.
Okay. Today,

Speaker 2 we have a person joining us that is a critical voice on where we are politically, where we have been, where we are going. She has been a journalist for 25 years.
She's worked on Obama's campaign.

Speaker 2 She's graduated from Harvard, for God's sake. She has her own cable news show.
She's got incredible style, three kids, and most importantly, a husband named Jason.

Speaker 1 Folks, this is the treasure named Joy Reed. Joy? No.
Welcome.

Speaker 1 Come on, Joy.

Speaker 1 There she is. Well, hello there.

Speaker 2 I'm just going to dork out here for a second. I'm going to just fan out on you.
I spend more time with you than I do my family. I'm every single day, truly.

Speaker 1 This is so cool. You're here.
It's so nice to meet you.

Speaker 3 I know. It's so cool to be with you guys.

Speaker 1 Very excited.

Speaker 2 One of the interesting things I did in my terrible research that I do

Speaker 2 for my guests, it's just simply Wikipedia, is that

Speaker 2 you studied film.

Speaker 2 Did you have a film degree?

Speaker 3 I did. Yeah, I graduated with a

Speaker 3 Bachelor of Arts in Film, basically documentary film is what I wound up studying.

Speaker 1 From where?

Speaker 3 At Harvard.

Speaker 3 They call it Visual and Environmental Studies so that no one will know what it is. Sure.

Speaker 1 Just to make it sound as boring as possible. Yes.

Speaker 3 Well, it was to discourage us from going Hollywood.

Speaker 2 Is that where you met Jason? Because he's a documentary.

Speaker 3 Yeah, no, actually, I met him afterwards. So basically, they try to hide Hollywood under a bushel.
They don't want any of us to aspire to that.

Speaker 3 So their film degree is called Visual and Environmental Studies. They put the photography majors, the film majors, all in there.
And then you study a lot of theory.

Speaker 3 And in some filmmaking, you do your final thesis film. I actually met Jason because when I graduated, I had these sort of dreams of being the girl Spike Lee.

Speaker 3 And I took a job at School of Visual Arts in the production office as the manager of the production office. And Jason, who had taken a year off, so he was one year behind me.

Speaker 3 He was basically my employee inside the production office. That's how I met him.

Speaker 1 At SVA in New York? Yeah. Yep.
Wow. That's so cool.
I love in your background, there's a little bag that says book nerd on it. Explain to these guys what a book is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's a bag you'd never see in my house.

Speaker 1 Tell me, tell me, like growing up. It'd be empty.
The bag would be empty.

Speaker 1 What do you mean? What was your, did you grow, did you feel like a nerd growing up? And were you treated as one? Oh, totally.

Speaker 3 Totally. Yeah, no, I was very nerdy.
As a kid, I loved, you know, I did the crossword puzzle on Sunday in the newspaper. I mean, the only things I was really good at.
You could do Sundays?

Speaker 3 I was really good at it. I sometimes would have like one thing missing.

Speaker 2 I still can't get past Monday. Come on.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah. Are you serious i try tuesdays every once in a while but i never feel good about are you serious yeah it's tough for me listen i'm gonna end this they're hard they're hard

Speaker 2 and the references are like weird cultural stuff yeah it's weird it's weird i can do it no y'all bet you can't will now the reading how much reading do you get a chance to do nowadays with your busy schedule Well, I don't get to read.

Speaker 3 I mean, you can see I have a whole wall of books behind me. I mean, I don't get a chance to read as much as I would like to, unless I have a book, you know, an author on.

Speaker 3 I do try to read their books if I'm going to have them on.

Speaker 3 But because I have to read all day, just the news of day stuff. I used to do a weekend show.
It was so much more leisurely to be able to like read a whole book.

Speaker 3 Now I can barely cram in all the reading for every day. So I don't have as much time.

Speaker 2 And are you fully, are you and

Speaker 2 your gang over there, are you guys fully reliant on New York Times, Washington Post, or do you have special access to information to build your news from?

Speaker 2 Or do you just expose the same stuff that we are?

Speaker 3 No, we luckily have MSNBC, you know, is part of NBC Universal. So we, thank God, have NBC News.
We have a whole political unit.

Speaker 3 So there's enough, you know, independent reporting and political reporters. We have a whole team that's at Capitol Hill.

Speaker 3 I actually now, now that I'm a DC-based show, we're literally like steps away from Capitol Hill. So we have that.
Plus, I have my own sources.

Speaker 3 I spend a lot of time texting people who are in politics, who are in campaigns. So we try to do as much as we can on our own.
And our show producers are very aggressive about calling people.

Speaker 3 And so we don't just rely on like...

Speaker 1 Yeah, Jason, they're not getting their news from other news sources. They're the ones who are in the middle of the year.
How do you think this works? Hey, well, I'm smartless.

Speaker 1 I don't have smartphones. Where do you get it?

Speaker 1 And then you guys just write down stuff you see on CNN and you just copy and paste.

Speaker 1 What do you think is going down here?

Speaker 1 Joy.

Speaker 1 So, Joy,

Speaker 2 you mentioned sources. So

Speaker 2 I'm going to tread lightly here because I know that you're limited in what you can say. But I am fascinated.

Speaker 2 How much does it differ from what we see in movies? You know, with deep throat, you meet him in Hal Halbrick in the garage.

Speaker 2 When reporters have sources, and especially now that there's a risk about people hacking your phone and finding out numbers and not a risk, it's a fact.

Speaker 2 Do you ever meet a source like

Speaker 2 in person or is it all like an encrypted digital or a combination of?

Speaker 1 How many raincoats do you have and meaning in

Speaker 3 all the raincoats well i also have to make it fashion so i need a lot of raincoats they have to have them for like yeah no we're going to get into your style yeah no um so we spend a lot of time with sources like either on signal or whatsapp you know you have to be careful you can't just text people as much as you used to because as you said i mean also the government can you know can subpoena them it but um especially in the last year because of covet everything is digital everything is text everything is signal it's very little in person and what is the competition like to secure one of these sources?

Speaker 2 I would imagine, let's say when Biden was coming in or it looked like he was going to get it, and you start to hear about who the cabinet's going to be and how the rest of the government's going to be staffed up.

Speaker 2 Is there like a race to like, oh, that's going to be a great source potentially because they're going to have good access?

Speaker 2 And you might bump into somebody trying to get that same source, maybe somebody from CNN or

Speaker 2 how does all that work?

Speaker 2 Is there a drama there?

Speaker 3 The only way that it works that way is, for instance, in the case of like a trial, like let's say the Derek Chauvin trial.

Speaker 3 Everyone wants to know who are all these jurors, how do we get to them, or if there's, you know, a Black Lives Matter case, we all want to connect with the family, we all want to talk to them.

Speaker 3 In that sense, the non-political sources. For me personally, I don't like access journalism.
I don't think it's a good way to do journalism to just try to find out who that person is in that office.

Speaker 3 And because what they're going to tell you is what the office wants you to know. That's not really giving you anything that the public needs.

Speaker 3 The whole idea behind what Woodward and Bernstein did, they didn't get access. They got somebody who didn't, who was telling information that the government didn't want us to know.

Speaker 3 So I really am against the idea of trying to scurry in and find out who are going to be the key people to talk to in the administration. There are people who do that.

Speaker 3 That's a part of the job for some parts of journalism. But I'm not at the NBC News.
I'm more of an opinion journalist.

Speaker 3 So basically, I've developed these sources who are basically friends that I've made over years and years from working in campaigns. These are people I've known forever.

Speaker 3 And sometimes they're in an administration and then sometimes they come out. These are people that are just people I know.

Speaker 3 And so they can get me information that the government maybe doesn't want you to have. You know what I'm saying? So I just rely on my personal relationships.

Speaker 3 I also have a lot of Republican friends and relationships because they're people who I've known and combated with, like Michael Steele, you know, that's been a friend of mine for a long time since we used to battle.

Speaker 3 We ultimately, because we respected each other, became friends. So I have Republican sources and Democratic.
I know it's wild how far he's traveled.

Speaker 3 So it's really, to me, it's more relationships. I'm saying sources, but I really just mean I have relationships.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Today's episode is sponsored by Ashley. They don't just sell incredible furniture, they're also making an impact in vulnerable communities.
Here's a tough fact.

Speaker 1 Over 7 million kids are affected by the welfare system and over 368,000 are currently in foster care.

Speaker 1 So together with Ashley and SiriusXM, we made a donation to four others, an organization working to end the child welfare crisis in America. You know, partnering with Ashley in our live show,

Speaker 1 first of all, they just made our set look really good. They made us really comfortable and they kind of made us look legit because otherwise it would have been, you know, milk crates and,

Speaker 1 you know, cardboard boxes. And Ashley made it look like a real, kind of looked like a living room, made it really comfortable, made our guest, John Mayer, really comfortable.

Speaker 1 And then he thought that maybe we're professional, we're not just a bunch of clowns. To be honest, there was a point where I got so comfortable, I forgot that I was in front of an audience.

Speaker 1 I was sitting back on that nice Ashley couch and I was just hanging out with my buds in my living room.

Speaker 1 Anyway, Ashley offers timeless, well-crafted furniture with white glove delivery right to your door. Visit your local Ashley store or head to Ashley.com to find your style.

Speaker 1 Hey, all you underwearers. Are you sick of feeling bounced around? Have you got a bad case of jugglers, Chuck?

Speaker 1 Is your junk drawer on life support? Well, Duluth Trading Company is here to get you buck naked.

Speaker 1 Since 1989, Duluth Trading Company has been engineering unders and workwear to help tackle your toughest tasks.

Speaker 1 Everything from underwater wielding to botanical gardening to excruciating Hollywood lunch meetings. Duluth Trading's buck naked underwear? Life-affirming.

Speaker 1 Doesn't matter if you're working overtime, golfing 36 holes, or dragging your co-hosts through a podcast. The no-pinch, no stink, no-sweat construction keeps you comfortable.

Speaker 1 And the crotch cradling bullpen pouch, the epitome of support. Duluth keeps me super comfortable.
Every time I'm wearing it, I feel fully supported.

Speaker 1 So if you've got a rear end and you're ready to go buck naked, visit duluthetrading.com or shop in store today.

Speaker 1 Some like it hot, but for most, a little spice goes a long way.

Speaker 1 Dorito's golden sriracha flavored tortilla chips are the perfectly balanced blend of yellow and green srirachas for a chip that's tangy and sweet with just the right amount of heat.

Speaker 1 Doritos Golden Sriracha are spicy, but not too spicy because Doritos knows bold flavor doesn't have to mean just heat. Try Dorito's Golden Sriracha for yourself.

Speaker 1 Look for them wherever Doritos are sold or find a store near you at Doritos.com.

Speaker 2 Doritos for the bold.

Speaker 1 And now, back to the show.

Speaker 1 Okay, Joy, I want to ask you something, and keep in mind, I am the least smart of the smartless group here. Agreed.
So I'm asking from you.

Speaker 2 Sorry, I got to let him get the statement out first.

Speaker 1 You got to debate him on it. No, I'm sorry.
So you're also the funnest. We'll build a gap in that.
Thanks. Joy, how dare you? He is the funnest.

Speaker 1 But I see this phrase thrown around recently, and I truly am asking you because I don't know the ins and outs of it. I know what is EDM.

Speaker 1 No, I know kind of like the broad stroke of what it is, but what is critical race theory?

Speaker 2 Oh my God, I had that question. Thank you, please.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 No, well, so, so I, again, and I say this not as an expert in critical race theory, which I always lead with, because the only people who are real experts in critical race theory are lawyers, because it's something you learn in law school.

Speaker 3 So critical race theory was a body of legal theory that grew in the late 1980s at Harvard University when Derek Bell was a professor there.

Speaker 3 And as a Harvard Law School professor, he and people like Kimberly Crenshaw, who was his student, went on to ask themselves, when you look at American history, what was built into the legal system and the laws that made us unequal and brought us to the point where even the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts have not produced material equality?

Speaker 3 When you look at all the stats and you see all the ways in which we are still racially unequal in this country, white versus non-white people, they were asking themselves, what is it that we can look at in history that brought us to this, in the laws?

Speaker 3 So what critical race theory is, is a way of looking at the legal system and asking what components of it are institutionally structured to keep inequality going. That's all it is.

Speaker 3 It has nothing to do with saying white people are, you know, as a matter of fact, it's funny,

Speaker 3 the argument that it says white people are inherently racist can't be true because critical race theorists believe, and because it's true, that race isn't real, because it isn't.

Speaker 3 Race is a social construct. It isn't a biological fact.

Speaker 1 It's nothing different.

Speaker 3 If we peeled our skin off, we're all the same. Race is cultural.

Speaker 3 It's sort of tribal, but it's like saying a brown dog and a white dog are not both the same species, right? There's no, race isn't real. Right.

Speaker 3 You know, you can take a brown dog and a tan dog and they would, they are perfectly can mate and make a medium color dog, right? Like people are just like any other mammal. We're just one species.

Speaker 3 Right. But people in this country invented race and literally critical race theories.
It's in the thing. If you read the Harvard description of it, it says race isn't real, it's a social construct.

Speaker 3 So you can't say anyone is inherently racist.

Speaker 1 So how do we uninvent it?

Speaker 3 That's a great point. I don't believe in even mentioning it.
So my thing is what I debated this foolish dude who's so dumb, he bragged about his strategy.

Speaker 3 He said, I don't give a shit about critical race theory. I'm just going to use it and attach every crazy story about awkward ways teachers try to teach anti-racism and call it critical race theory.

Speaker 3 I refuse to debate these people on something they made up. Don't debate it.

Speaker 3 If you ain't a critical race theory expert, don't debate them on that. You should just talk about the things they want to do, which is book banning,

Speaker 3 idea banning,

Speaker 3 feature mandates. And so I would just not debate them on critical race theory.
I don't. I refuse to.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it makes me think of something that, again, I'd love your take on.

Speaker 2 So at what point is it too young to even introduce to a new mind the notion that at one point the white folks saw the black folks as less than?

Speaker 2 Because as soon as you've introduced that idea to this pure mind, maybe some white kids that are in a bad environment will try that thought on and incorporate it and go, oh, you know what? Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, like, in other words, if they never had that notion, would an instinct of racism ever take hold?

Speaker 2 Does any of that make sense?

Speaker 3 It does make sense. And I think it's a valid question.
I think here's the challenge.

Speaker 3 They, back in the 19, I want to say 50s or 60s, they did a thing called the doll test, in which they took little kids, like second and third graders, and they gave them an array of dolls, black kids.

Speaker 3 And they said, Would you rather play with this little doll who is white or this little doll who is black? And like 90% of them said they wanted to play with the white doll.

Speaker 3 And this was consistent over years and years and years of doing it, meaning that even by second, third grade, black children have internalized the idea that black is ugly, that black is inferior.

Speaker 3 They've already internalized it. So we're talking second graders.
Similarly to that, my kids,

Speaker 3 I raised them in Florida.

Speaker 3 We lived in New York, but we moved to Florida when our two older ones were toddler, where I was when I was pregnant with my second one. And all three of our kids were pretty much raised in Florida.

Speaker 3 By the time they were in the fourth grade, they had been called the N-word by other kids. Jesus.

Speaker 3 So those kids were, and the, and in the case of the kids who called my kids the N-word, they were not even white. They were brown kids.
They were Colombian.

Speaker 3 And I had to go and surprise their parents with my Spanish and tell the mother off, right? Which she was very shocked by.

Speaker 3 But the bottom line is little kids are already practicing racism on other little kids and on themselves and internalizing self-hate.

Speaker 1 But I was going to say it starts at home.

Speaker 3 Well, the thing is, is that even if you say, well, I won't teach it at school, believe me when I tell you, black kids are already internalizing inferiority and white kids are internalizing superiority by the time they get to the third grade.

Speaker 3 So it isn't to say that there's some young age where you can't teach it. They're already getting it.
They're getting it from TV commercials.

Speaker 3 They're getting it from the way that black people are depicted on the news when they walk by the news and they see all the criminals are black.

Speaker 1 But they're not getting the N-word from TV commercials. They're getting that from home.
They're getting that from

Speaker 3 other kids too.

Speaker 1 Trust me, they're getting it from other kids too.

Speaker 2 So then this would be in support of the case of teaching it as early as possible to offset all the crap at home.

Speaker 3 And the thing is, is the better you can do to teach anti-racism to kids and to teach the truth at an age level.

Speaker 3 Remember, I mean, I took my kids to church when they were kids, and the church we went to had like a kiddie version of the message and a grown-up version of the message because they know a kid has a different brain.

Speaker 3 The Ruby Bridges book that they're trying to ban in Tennessee is written as a children's book. It's a children's book.

Speaker 3 It's not written as a, let me lecture y'all about racism from an adult point of view. It's written from a point of view of a child.

Speaker 3 So the thing is, is you can have children's books that teach things about different families. They're books they used to want to ban about teaching different families.

Speaker 3 What if you're a little kid and you have two moms and no one else in your class can experience that?

Speaker 3 Are you saying we shouldn't have a children's book in the second, third grade that teaches that your family is normal? You know what I mean? And we had that fight in Florida, a major major fight.

Speaker 3 They're like, these kids are too young to internalize that. But some of the kids are living that, right? They have have two dads or two moms.

Speaker 3 And you're saying it's too young to introduce this concept. You're not like saying, let's show like a porn.
You're saying, let's like actually talk about their family.

Speaker 3 So I don't think any kid is too young to start getting the message that, look,

Speaker 1 nobody's perfect. And they're more visual.

Speaker 3 Your mom and dad aren't perfect. No one's perfect.
Right.

Speaker 3 And so if you can teach in a way that's very picture-driven, very image-driven, to say, you know, the ways that we have black people and white people and brown people in this country is the way that we brought them here differently.

Speaker 3 And you might have come here as an immigrant in your family. Other kids who are brown and black may have come here enslaved.
And that was a bad, bad thing. And that was not a good thing.

Speaker 3 But here's the thing we changed. And you can talk about the redemption of the country, but you can talk about it in a way that also tells the truth.
I hate that people don't want the truth.

Speaker 1 You know what's so funny? Well, not funny, but what's so strange for me is growing up in Canada,

Speaker 1 it was a different experience.

Speaker 1 The notion of racism obviously isn't solely American. It does exist in other places as well.
But

Speaker 1 it's something that's been really

Speaker 1 important. No, it's been perfected in this country.

Speaker 1 But I will say, and as a Canadian, you come here and I was 20 when I moved to this country and I was kind of shocked by it all. I couldn't.

Speaker 1 And I grew up with American TV and stuff, but it wasn't until I actually lived here that I was like, holy crap, this is. It's more blatant here.
It's way more blatant.

Speaker 3 My husband is British, and he, well, he always says, you know, my mother used to say it too, because she lived in England for a long time. And she said, look, there's lots of racism in England.

Speaker 3 It's just more subtle because it's such a class-based system that you more get hit on class than on race on a daily basis. You don't feel it battering you.

Speaker 3 And she came here in 1960 and it didn't batter her until she got here and wanted to come here because they all, you know, people outside, my parents are both immigrants and they really believe the ideas that they read about about America.

Speaker 3 And they come here and think, I'm going to get a great education. My kids will have an opportunity.

Speaker 3 I mean, hell, my mother's first generation of her kids, one is an actress, one of them is a broadcaster, and one of them is a TV, you know, has a primetime TV show.

Speaker 3 Like it does happen, but she experienced racism big time in New York

Speaker 1 and was shocked by it. Yeah, in New York.
Where did your parents immigrate from?

Speaker 3 My mother came from Guyana, and my father was from the Congo, the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Speaker 1 Wow, cool. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And he was a major Republican. They used to fight.
They were very, they didn't, you know, the marriage clearly didn't last.

Speaker 3 He was a conservative, Republican-leaning guy, and she was like a liberal, pro-Carter, you know, Democrat. And so they were just very opposite.

Speaker 2 So, Joy, speaking of show biz, congratulations on your one year. Is it coming up? On one year anniversary of your show?

Speaker 1 We're coming up on the 12th century.

Speaker 1 It's incredible. We just had ours.
We can celebrate every year at the same time. Congratulations.
That's one year.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So obviously,

Speaker 2 when you guys launched,

Speaker 2 there was different,

Speaker 2 let's say, programming opportunities for you guys, this whole sort of dumpster fire.

Speaker 2 Are you guys finding, I don't mean to ask this in a cynical way, but are you guys finding your conversations about programming the episodes and I'm sure across all all news networks and shows that the attempt to still try to hold the audience's interest

Speaker 3 does that go into your thoughts about what leads and what doesn't yeah you know when we took the show I was in the midst of look I again I'm an opinion journalist I'm not on nightly news so I'm allowed to have an opinion and and my dedication my only mission was to see to it that I did everything in my power to prevent him from getting re-elected because I genuinely believe had he been re-elected he would never leave.

Speaker 3 And he is an autocrat. Michael Cohen has said that very clearly.
Everyone I know who knows him has said it very clearly. He is an autocrat.
He wants to be president for life. He's dangerous.

Speaker 3 And so my whole dedication was that.

Speaker 2 Huh, absolutely. Well, let me just, let me change the subject slightly here.

Speaker 2 Now, Joy, I don't spend a lot of time on style websites as it might become as a surprise to most people, but I hope that you're getting the kind of feedback and rewards and accolades that you deserve for.

Speaker 2 I mean, what's going on with your outfits is incredible. But what's going on, the hairstyle, every episode you're changing.
It's just like, where does all this come from?

Speaker 2 Tell me about your team and where do you get your ideas. And I mean, you know.

Speaker 1 Yes, give credit to the team.

Speaker 1 Let's do the team. Let's give it a second.

Speaker 3 Yes, let's give credit to the team. So let me give credit to the team.
So first of all, for an entire year, I had to do my own hair and makeup. And I am a legit tomboy.

Speaker 3 The only other thing I was doing when I was a kid, when I wasn't doing crossword puzzles and watching the news, was sports. I was a very tomboyish kid.

Speaker 3 So I never really learned how to do hair and makeup. It was just not a thing I really was ever good at.

Speaker 3 So over the last year, when we couldn't have hair and makeup anymore, I have a fabulous glam squad in New York. I couldn't use them.
I couldn't use it.

Speaker 3 We were all locked down in where we live now in the DMV area. So I got a guy named Fred.
He's Fred for Face on Instagram. And he gave me a tutorial.

Speaker 3 So I was doing my own makeup, but when they allowed us to bring hair and makeup back, and also whenever I was in New York and I would use my hair and makeup folks on the side, they're just brilliant people.

Speaker 3 So I'm just going to shout out all of them who are Giselle, who braids my hair. I always get my hair braided.

Speaker 1 Giselle, the supermodel, incredible. I can't believe it.

Speaker 3 Giselle Modest, who is the incredible braider. She did the braids.

Speaker 3 And then I have Cece in New York, Michelle in New York, and then here in DC, who does my hair, are Janice,

Speaker 3 Carmen. is the hair stylist and the third person is Jennifer.
So those are my, that is my glam squad.

Speaker 2 What's the pre-call on that? I mean you got it you got to be on camera.

Speaker 1 Every student's worried about call times. This is incredible.

Speaker 1 This is incredible.

Speaker 3 I think 45 minutes.

Speaker 1 This is the most real that you're getting. We're now at the heart of Bateman.
Now we're at the heart of it. This is important.

Speaker 1 What is the pre-call?

Speaker 2 When are you in the chair?

Speaker 3 So basically what I have to do is I ride, I get in my car here in DC. I get in my car at 5.15.

Speaker 3 I have my laptop and I'm working on scripts, working on stuff so I can be in the makeup chair by 6 o'clock so that I can be done by 6:45. So that's what I do.

Speaker 1 It's making 45 minutes.

Speaker 3 And by the way, Carmen, who does my

Speaker 3 hair, we never know what she's going to do. Neither does she.
And the makeup and hair team, they just decide in the moment what they feel like based on what I have on there. So cool.

Speaker 3 So they're artists. They're true.

Speaker 2 So the outfit drives the hairstyle.

Speaker 1 The outfit drives.

Speaker 3 Is that right? The outfit drives the hairstyle. Yeah.
And their vibe. They just catch a vibe.

Speaker 4 I love it. I love it.
20th Century Studios presents the upcoming comedy, Ella McKay, from Academy Award-winning writer-director James L. Brooks.

Speaker 4 Emma Mackey plays Ella McKay, an idealistic young woman who juggles her family and work life in a story about the people you love and how to survive them.

Speaker 4 Featuring an all-star cast, including Emma Mackey, Jamie Lee Curtis, Jack Loudon, Kumale Ninjani, Iowa Deborey, Julie Kavner, with Albert Brooks and Woody Harrelson.

Speaker 4 Ella McKay in theaters December 12th.

Speaker 1 This message is brought to you by Apple Card. It's a great time to apply for an an Apple Card.
You'll love earning up to 3% unlimited daily cash back on every purchase and no fees, period.

Speaker 1 Through this special referral offer, when you get a new Apple Card, you can earn bonus daily cash. To qualify, you must apply at apple.co/slash get daily cash.

Speaker 1 Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. Variable APRs for Apple Card range from 17.99% to 28.24% based on credit worthiness.

Speaker 1 Rates as of October 1st, 2025 offer may not be available elsewhere. Terms and limitations apply.

Speaker 1 Nothing goes with football like Sonic's new pretzel bacon sonic smasher.

Speaker 1 Two hand smashed Angus beef patties, crispy bacon and onions, plus pub sauce, all on a buttery soft pretzel bun.

Speaker 1 It's perfect for watching beefy linemen, crispy corners, saucy receivers, and buttery smooth quarterbacks. Geez, did they write this for me?

Speaker 1 And together with the original Sonic Smasher, they're forming a new dynasty of burgers. The Pretzel Bacon Sonic Smasher.
Try it for a limited time.

Speaker 1 Sonic!

Speaker 2 All right, back to the show.

Speaker 1 Well, let me ask you this. So you're in the car at 5.15.

Speaker 1 So do you...

Speaker 1 So what time are you up? Do you have a regime in the morning? Do you work out or are is it just straight into the car? We're talking 5.15 in the afternoon. Oh, it's 5.15 in the afternoon.

Speaker 3 Yeah, 5.15 in the afternoon. Because now, you know, we work from home now.
Well, because it used to be, you know, you come to the office. We don't do that anymore.
We're still basically from home.

Speaker 3 I just go into the studio

Speaker 3 right before the show. But basically, I have deep insomnia, very bad insomnia.

Speaker 3 So if I get, you know, four or five hours of sleep, I pop up at like six, seven o'clock, walk my dog, make sure that she, that we have a puppy.

Speaker 3 So she has to pee immediately in the morning so she doesn't pee in the house.

Speaker 3 And then I pretty much start reading in, figuring out what's going on.

Speaker 3 I have three show meetings a day, all by phone, oh, three and a half, because I have one meeting with my executive producer and senior producer.

Speaker 3 And then we just sort of sort of chop through what we're going to do on the show. I try to read in.
They get scripts ready. I sometimes write like a rant of my own that they have to edit and work on.

Speaker 1 What in the world do you do when you aren't doing this?

Speaker 3 I mean, honestly, I... I kind of collapse.
Like I work out twice a week. I have a trainer now because I'm trying to get in shape because it's summer.

Speaker 3 So I work out with her twice a week.

Speaker 2 Are we cross-training?

Speaker 2 Is it aerobic? Are we pushing weights?

Speaker 3 I can't do cross-training. Yeah,

Speaker 3 I can't do cross-training. It's basically an intensive 30-minute workout twice a week, which is both weights, weights, body weight, and aerobic and aerobic stuff.

Speaker 3 So it's like very intense 30 minutes that kills me.

Speaker 2 Will is willing to teach you boxing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm on the boxing.

Speaker 3 I love boxing, by the way. I'm obsessed with boxing.
I was a huge Muhammad Ali fan growing up, so I would totally get it.

Speaker 1 I have.

Speaker 1 Well, mine's less Muhammad Ali and more like um you know boom boomer beverly hills house husband oh god no i just i'm just like don't worry guys i got this bang and then i get knocked out immediately

Speaker 3 you know what i mean when you were younger what was your sport what are you watching so when i when i started out being a huge baseball fanatic i used to have a baseball card collection i was that serious

Speaker 3 but i became like an ultimate football yeah football and basketball so i was a denver broncos fanatic like i would literally cry if they lost

Speaker 3 um i i it was I was literally a fanatical football fan, and I was a Knick fan, even though I was supposed to be a Nuggets fan. So, I was born in New York.

Speaker 3 So, I was New York Knicks for life, even though they broke my heart every year.

Speaker 3 And the Denver Broncos, but also baseball. I was a Yankee fan, sorry.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 So then, Bill Bradley, did you ever get near, I'm saying his name right, right? The congressman that used to be a Nick?

Speaker 3 Oh, I never met him. No, yeah, he, he, yeah, no, I never, I never got a chance to meet him, but I did.
We used to go to training camps.

Speaker 3 So my mom um was a professor um at university of northern colorado and greeley is where they would do training camp for the broncos so i did get to meet a bunch of the broncos because we would go out to training camp which was pretty cool got it got it you still follow baseball you're still you're a yankee fan

Speaker 3 I know I've fallen. Here's what happened.
Then I had kids and I fell off of sports. Like, I don't have time because I'm so busy between family and work.

Speaker 3 And I have two podcasts and I'm writing a third book and I am exhausted. And so I don't even have time.
I watched a little of the NBA finals.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm too tired. Jason, you're the same, right? You got kids, so you just gave up sports and stuff, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been all my free time.
If I'm not talking to you guys, I'm talking to my kids just about how they're doing.

Speaker 1 And you don't follow any of the sports anymore, right? You gave it all up just like Tori did?

Speaker 2 Yeah, no, I just need to be with my kids.

Speaker 3 But you got to love LeBron James. I follow LeBron.

Speaker 1 I love him.

Speaker 3 He's like the Muhammad Ali of today.

Speaker 1 He was just on the show. We just had him on the show.
He's just intense. Oh, my God.
I love that guy. He's the coolest.
I mean, he's the guy.

Speaker 1 He's like doing it the way you should do it.

Speaker 1 He's showing everybody because he's playing at the top of his game and then in his free time and what he does and how, not just that he's giving back, but how he does it and how he's making a difference is setting a

Speaker 1 whole new standard.

Speaker 1 Incredible guy. Incredible guy.

Speaker 1 And I think he respects me a lot, too.

Speaker 1 That's not what he said. Talk to him about it.
No, it seemed like he respected me a ton. It seemed like he respected.
Now,

Speaker 1 what are your shows? When you do spend, because you don't have a lot of downtime. It's crazy all the stuff that you're doing.
What do you do?

Speaker 3 Do you have shows that you, what are what are the things that you like to watch what are the movies that you like do you like to watch so i i literally like uh i'm a tv kid because you know i'm a generation xer so i grew up watching you know coming home watching star trek and you know if i wasn't watching sports i love tv so i watch a lot of netflix uh right now i'm watching a series called frequency which is really really good oh yeah um but i love anything with zombies superheroes um

Speaker 3 action adventure are you a walking dead gal walking dead yes and fear i didn't like fear the walking dead at first but now i'm into it so yeah walking dead totally into it. But I hate Negan, though.

Speaker 3 He's handsome, but I hate him.

Speaker 1 You go see a baseball game with Jason, and then when we get home, you and I watch all of those things. Yes.
Because everything you just said is everything I love. You do love Star Trek, Sean.

Speaker 1 I love it, right? I love it. Sean loves space stuffed, and he loves sci-fi.

Speaker 3 Sean, we're going to survive the zombie apocalypse because, see, people like put us down for watching zombies, but when the zombie apocalypse comes, we're going to know what to do.

Speaker 3 What about World War Z?

Speaker 2 Did you see World War Z? Yeah, that was a good movie.

Speaker 3 Oh, my God. Yes, of course.

Speaker 1 One of the best movies ever.

Speaker 1 I saw that.

Speaker 3 28 Days Later.

Speaker 1 28 Days Days. 28 Days Later is great, too.
Yeah. I love Brad Pitt.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you've seen them all. Well, what's your favorite Brad Pitt movie, Will?

Speaker 1 Well, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, but it's the current one because he looks great, but he's so cool

Speaker 1 and he's a good dude, and everybody relax. Brad's fine.

Speaker 3 Wait, you know, the best Brad Pitt movie is Snatch. Isn't that the name Snatch? It's a British.
That's a good one.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's

Speaker 1 a good one. That's a good one.
I mean, it's a long list, Joy. Let's be real.
True romance.

Speaker 3 Meet Joe Black. People People could put it down, but I love me.

Speaker 1 Don't sleep on Meet Joe Black for sure. He lives with Anthony Franklin.
I like California. Jersey, California with Juliet Lewis.
California was a good one, too, with Juliet Lewis. Yep.
Yeah. So good.

Speaker 3 I love movies. I love movies and TV.
So, yeah. Any kind of entertainment.

Speaker 1 The only thing I don't really like are like romances, which is probably really ungirlie. A little rom-com.
A little bit boring. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You don't like the romance stuff? It's a little YA. It's a bit boring.
Yeah. A little predictive.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, they're going to be together.

Speaker 3 You know what's going to happen, right? I'm like, is somebody going to get murdered anytime soon? Am I going to see like a, you know, is there going to be a fight?

Speaker 1 Have you watched the Ozarks

Speaker 1 thing?

Speaker 2 Don't bader into that.

Speaker 3 So I keep on being told to watch it. Is it worth it? Is it good?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know. Don't know.
It's not. No, honestly, because you don't have a lot of time.

Speaker 1 No. You don't have a ton of time.

Speaker 2 And it's super blue.

Speaker 1 And Sean had told me one time, Sean saw it. And Sean, I said, Sean, do you like it? And he said, it's okay.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean? Like he said it like that. It's okay.
Yeah. And his voice is.
a great.

Speaker 2 It's a great Sean Hayes. That's a great.
Well, listen, we're going to end on that. That's a high note.
We're going to end on the high note.

Speaker 1 It's more of a medium note, but that's okay. Joy.

Speaker 2 Joy, I get where you got your name from. Listen,

Speaker 2 we have really enjoyed it.

Speaker 2 And thank you for sharing your part of your Saturday with us.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a nice day.

Speaker 3 You guys are awesome. I'm a fan, and it's been fun hanging out with y'all.
So thank you. Likewise.

Speaker 1 Thank you, Joyce. Thank you for taking the time on your Saturday.
Thank you for doing this.

Speaker 2 See you on the TV Monday. Cool.

Speaker 1 Bye, Joy. Bye, bye, bye.

Speaker 1 See you later.

Speaker 1 Bye. Thank you.
Bye.

Speaker 2 Will, look at that. Listener, Will just put his hands behind his head.
Flexing. He wants to talk a little bit, I guess, and show us the gun shit.

Speaker 1 He's completely flexing right now.

Speaker 1 I'm not flexing, dude. I'm just being in a natural position, man.

Speaker 1 Did you put a blow?

Speaker 2 Did you put a blow dryer to your pits? They're not as wet as they usually are. I always get sweaty pits.
Look at that.

Speaker 1 It's coming through to my hoodie.

Speaker 2 I don't sweat except when I do the podcast. Everything is.

Speaker 1 But Jason, why are you wearing a hoodie? It's inside. Why are you wearing a t-shirt?

Speaker 2 Just because it's part of, it's just my, these are my PJs, bro.

Speaker 1 But wait, can I say something? First of all, Joy Reed, what a joy. And she is.
Very joyful. Yeah.
I could hang out with her. I could hang out with her and watch some zombie shit for a long time.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Do you think you guys would be... I think that you and she would be friends, Sean.
Absolutely. I'm going to call her after this.
You're going to call her? I'm going to call her. Why not?

Speaker 1 When I'm down in Florida next time, I'll watch her. She's not in in Florida anymore.
No, she lives in D.C. Washington.

Speaker 1 I thought she was in New York and then moved to Florida.

Speaker 2 You'll have to listen to the interview back.

Speaker 1 Oh. She lives in DMV, like D.C., Maryland, Virginia area.
I have to point that out where that is on the map for me. I like that.
I like saying she's like, look, I'm an opinion journalist.

Speaker 1 I like that she sort of owns it. The way that instead of sort of, you know, having that hung around her neck as a thing, she's like, yeah,

Speaker 1 it's my opinion, which I think is really fucking rad.

Speaker 2 She just lets it loose.

Speaker 1 Yeah. That was a great guest, Jason.
She's really cool.

Speaker 2 I thank you. I hope I wasn't too starstruck because I just, I mean, I think that she and all her colleagues over there are just doing such an incredible job of things.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, I've just been, as you know, the last few years now, I've kind of stopped DVRing a lot of those shows because I end up not feeling great.

Speaker 1 I think that those people are really good at what they do.

Speaker 1 I want to say that, that they're all really smart and great. But for me personally, it was just starting to make me not feel great all the time.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's a lot coming at you for the last, you know, know, three, four, five, six years. It is.

Speaker 1 And Jason, we've had this argument before, not even argument, like you've joked and be like, oh, do you prefer to have your head in the sand? And it's not that. I do sort of keep it up.

Speaker 1 I keep up with stuff, but I keep it in my peripheral vision. I keep it very blurry.
I mean,

Speaker 2 I take it pretty seriously and hard too. But

Speaker 2 you remember the, I think it was the only episode I ever directed of Arrested Development.

Speaker 2 It was the day, it was the day that, was it Bush that got elected?

Speaker 1 george watch it was it was the second time yeah when he beat uh he got re-elected when he got re-elected when he beat uh um carry carry right yeah and you came you came to work that morning it was a big big day we were shooting and i i was directing so i was very very stressed you remember do you remember the scene yeah it was me in the banana suit yeah picked up on a crane and dropped in the marina Not just that, you and I got into a little tiff because you were mad because I was so in such a bitter mood.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he shows up all bummed out. You didn't even have citizenship yet.
I know, at that point, and he's showing up all bummed out about the American election. I'm like, guy, we got a full day of work.

Speaker 1 I was your understudy. I was the second banana.
God,

Speaker 1 that's high quality. Fuck is this.

Speaker 2 This is why Sean gets the big buzz.

Speaker 1 That is. Say that one more time.
Sure. I was your understudy, so I was known as the second banana.
You guys get that?

Speaker 2 She's talk show quick.

Speaker 1 Right? It's so good. Yeah, it's really, really good.
Thanks, you guys.

Speaker 2 Anyway, getting back to Joy, what I think was so amazing about her is her ability to,

Speaker 2 she seems to give genuine time and consideration to both sides, right? Republican, which would really technically make her

Speaker 1 bias.

Speaker 1 Smart,

Speaker 1 less.

Speaker 5 There are millions of podcasts out there, and you've chosen this one. Whether you're a regular or just here on a whim, it's what you have chosen to listen to.

Speaker 5 With Yoto, your kids can have the same choice. Yoto is a screen-free, ad-free audio player.
With hundreds of Yoto cards, there are stories, music, and podcasts like this one, but for kids.

Speaker 5 Just slot a card into the player and let the adventure begin. Check out YotoPlay.com.

Speaker 1 You know those moments when you're trying to work through a complex problem and you can't stop until you've found the answer?

Speaker 1 That's where Claude comes in, the AI for minds that don't stop at good enough.

Speaker 1 Whether you're planning something big, researching a topic you're curious about, or just trying to work through a problem, Claude matches your level of curiosity.

Speaker 1 Try Claude for free at claude.ai/slash smartless and see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner.