"Mitch Hurwitz"

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Speaker 2 Hey, welcome to Smartlist. I'm Jason.

Speaker 1 Hi, welcome to Smartlist. I'm Will.
Hi, welcome to SmartList. My name is Sean.

Speaker 2 Tell you what, I'm going to do the welcome to Smartlist and say I'm Jason, and then you just go Will and Sean. Hi, I'm welcome to Smart.

Speaker 1 No, hi, I'm welcome. Oh, that was real.
Hi, I'm welcome. Welcome to Smart List.

Speaker 1 Hi, Smartless.

Speaker 1 How are you? Oh, the whole Smartless showed up today.

Speaker 1 He's crying. Welcome to Smartlist, Smarty Pants.
Smart

Speaker 1 List.

Speaker 1 Smart

Speaker 1 Less.

Speaker 1 Smart.

Speaker 2 I love both of my dogs, but I am not embarrassed to tell you, or maybe I am embarrassed to tell you.

Speaker 2 I love them and love them and love them. I'll get my hands all over them, but I wash my hands immediately

Speaker 1 after I touch my dogs. Way to go, because people who are like dog people and animal people,

Speaker 1 they're not really vocal and stuff. So way to go.
Wait for the letters from the dog. You know, you should allow.
And this. What do you mean? No, no, we love them.
I'm just preemptive.

Speaker 2 We loved our dogs. I went over to a friend's house the other day, and

Speaker 2 these folks,

Speaker 2 they have the rule where you got to take off your shoes when you go in. And I get that.
I understand that. But their dogs are running around all over the place.
Hey, Mitch.

Speaker 1 Good to see you. Oh, no, there's our guest.
His thing fell off. Is that Mitch? It's the first time it's ever happened, you guys.

Speaker 3 Jesus, how embarrassing.

Speaker 2 Our mystery guest usually covers their camera, and then

Speaker 2 the person who invited the guest does a big intro, as a big build-up, and then they reveal themselves. But Mitch has an old stack of post-its, I guess, that have not real good adhesive on them.

Speaker 3 Well, I erase them and I reuse them.

Speaker 1 Well, do you? Well, whose guest is it? Is it what it's this is my guest? And you know what, Mitch?

Speaker 2 You know, introduce him now. The listeners.

Speaker 1 No, I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 1 Mitch, introduce yourself. Introduce yourself.
Yeah, that's your penalty.

Speaker 3 Yeah. Hi, guys.
I'm Mitch.

Speaker 3 I obviously recognize you,

Speaker 3 Michael Bluth and Joe Booth, and of course, George Michael Bluth. What a treat.

Speaker 1 no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, again. No, it's Sean Hayes.

Speaker 1 No, but for the people listening, Mitch Hurwitz is. How'd you get Sean Hayes?

Speaker 1 The brilliant creator of Arrested Development. Welcome, Mitch Hurwitz.

Speaker 1 Welcome, Mitch Hurwitz. I don't think the listener got that.

Speaker 2 Mitch Hurwitz is the wind beneath the creative wings of Arrested Development, the smartest, funniest man in all of the world.

Speaker 3 The worst secret keeper in Hollywood, they call him.

Speaker 1 The worst secret keeper. Yeah, he's.
That was the worst reveal in history. This is the worst opening we've ever had.
And of course it's with Mitch Huritz.

Speaker 1 Well, let's put our acting acting chops to the test. Okay, let's hear, let's hear what's thinking.
Yeah, let's hear what the intro would have been. Here we go.

Speaker 1 Here we go. Cover the camera.

Speaker 3 I'm covering up the camera.

Speaker 1 Brand new post. Okay, he's going to cover up the camera.

Speaker 1 Let's go back through it. And action.
Hey, guys, so I'm really excited. I fell down.
You were going to wait for the intro. Mitch, wait for the intro.

Speaker 2 Wait till he says your name.

Speaker 3 Wait till wait.

Speaker 1 Wait till I say.

Speaker 1 I'm not an actor.

Speaker 2 No, clearly.

Speaker 1 We'll get into that.

Speaker 3 I'm not here. The point is, I'm not here, guys.

Speaker 1 Okay, gosh. Okay.

Speaker 2 Hey, Will, who's your guest?

Speaker 1 Yeah. So, guys, my guest today is, I'm really excited to have our guest on.
You know,

Speaker 1 you love the Golden Girls. I love them.

Speaker 1 Did you get.

Speaker 1 We did not get the ghost of B. Arthur.

Speaker 3 I immediately started to think, wait, who's alive?

Speaker 1 Wow. Okay, can you get away? Mitch, stop laughing.
Mitch, you're not even allowed to laugh.

Speaker 2 Oh, wait, is the guest name Mitch?

Speaker 1 No, it's not.

Speaker 2 No, no, it's not. See, now you're blowing it.

Speaker 1 I know, but

Speaker 1 so our first guest. Ah, fuck, it's our only guest.

Speaker 1 Our guest today is a guy who started as a writer many moons ago. Yes, Kid Sherwitz.

Speaker 1 He just revealed himself again.

Speaker 3 Would it be inappropriate if I were to bring in a guest?

Speaker 1 Yes.

Speaker 1 How about a new co-host for us? But here's what should be noted. Every one of those times that we tried to recreate.

Speaker 3 No, there's nothing to note.

Speaker 1 Let's just get this over with.

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 what's the glowing intro? Say all the nice things you were about to say about that.

Speaker 1 He wrote on Golden. He started as a runner at Witt Thomas and ended up running Golden Girls.
He did Golden Palace. He's written a million shows.

Speaker 1 And then in 2003, he created a show that gave both Jason and me a life beyond our wildest dreams.

Speaker 1 He's an incredible writer. He's a phenomenal father.
And he's potentially the funniest person I've ever spent time with. And I'm lucky enough to call my friend

Speaker 1 the incredible.

Speaker 1 I can't guess who this is wait wait drunk on drunk on Emmy award Mitch Hurwitz well what and now I'm just gonna mute and cover my camera and just let you guys don't do it now no no we're back don't do it now no don't do it do not mute oh Mitch Mitch what are you doing on a Saturday

Speaker 3 well you know this is um I pre-recorded my part so I'm free today

Speaker 3 how did you know the questions

Speaker 3 I wanted to look my youngest and I just thought you know I knew it was coming up in a week and I thought maybe I just get a week on it.

Speaker 2 You actually do look very good.

Speaker 2 What have you been doing?

Speaker 2 You look fit and hydrated.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I guess I'm hydrated. Yeah?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I've been drinking a lot of water since we worked together.

Speaker 3 I mean, I probably

Speaker 3 well, it's going to sound like I'm bragging, but

Speaker 3 I've probably drank about 15, 20 gallons of water since we last worked together.

Speaker 1 Good lord.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's actually not that much because it's been a minute. Is it not much?

Speaker 1 No, it's not. Okay.

Speaker 3 Well, I know I am very thirsty.

Speaker 1 In one sitting?

Speaker 3 Sean,

Speaker 3 do you know that Sean sent flowers? Do you remember that you sent me flowers once?

Speaker 1 Oh, right, because he thought you died or something? Was that what happened?

Speaker 1 No, no.

Speaker 3 I was collecting flowers for a while. Oh, no, as I realized, as I told this story, I realized that there's no good way to tell the story.

Speaker 2 He's a good flower sender. I will give him a story.

Speaker 3 It was a congratulations for our work together.

Speaker 3 and sean i i owe you a thank you for that so is that true sean or you owe me flowers has he never sent you flowers well honestly has sean never sent you flowers well me yeah no is that something that he no but i've i've sent his kids gifts and never heard anything that's not true that's not true nice try sean here's can i tell you one other thing one other uh interaction we almost had so it's it's 1998 and i'm trying to cast a show called everything's relatively relative and did i get it no you didn't come in i i what had happened was...

Speaker 1 I did audition for it, but I didn't get past the casting director, I think.

Speaker 3 God damn it.

Speaker 1 Hold on. I'm going to make it.

Speaker 2 Oh, here's Mitch's raid.

Speaker 1 Are you going to make the call now? This seems a little... But Sean's great.
No, he is great. No, no, no.
We're not arguing that. I don't know about that.

Speaker 3 No, that show would be on the air.

Speaker 1 Okay. Right.

Speaker 3 Well, what happened was I could not cast this part.

Speaker 3 And I just tried everything. And then

Speaker 3 I didn't know that you ever auditioned because I had said to the casting director, hey, there's a guy in a Doritos commercial that looks really funny. And I think he's the guy.

Speaker 3 And they were like, okay, Mitch,

Speaker 1 acting like he's into the girl.

Speaker 1 No, it wasn't the girl. It was you.
No, I was, I was acting like I was into the girl in that Doritos commercial. So you looked like you were more into the Doritos, to be honest.

Speaker 2 I was. Hey, Mitch, was every was that the show that I auditioned for too?

Speaker 3 Yes. So, so then we finally cast somebody.
And

Speaker 3 who did you cast?

Speaker 3 We cast a wonderful actor named Kevin Rahm,

Speaker 3 who

Speaker 3 he's been in Mad Men and

Speaker 3 he's been on Smartlist about three times.

Speaker 3 Each time surprised a different one of you.

Speaker 1 You don't remember this?

Speaker 3 And so we had finally cast it and it really had been a long process. And then they said, Jason Bateman will come in.
And Jason came in and read. And I remember thinking, shit, he's great.

Speaker 1 No. He's great.

Speaker 3 But I couldn't go back one more time. How about this?

Speaker 1 Jason will come in, but Sean's asking to come in.

Speaker 2 But it was, but

Speaker 2 was this the audition that

Speaker 2 when later, when you were casting Arrested Development and I was not right for it because I brought a lot of sitcom baggage with me and you guys were trying to do something cooler than that, you actually said, no, no, I'll read him because I remember he gave a good reading for a show I was casting years ago.

Speaker 2 And were it not for that, I may not have been seen for Arrested Development, or is that my own narrative?

Speaker 3 As I recall, you know, these things are so.

Speaker 2 you see the way I made it about me, guys.

Speaker 3 No, it's right, but I remember wanting you to come in because I knew how good you were, and simultaneously being a little worried that

Speaker 3 they would just say, Oh, well, we would just take Jason Bateman, which you had done a lot of pilots at that point.

Speaker 3 And I thought, well, but I want to read them and I want to, you know, I want to make sure it's right and everything.

Speaker 3 But as you know, you came in, and once again, I mean, just within seconds, and I found the audition.

Speaker 2 You sent me that.

Speaker 2 Have I shown this to you, Will? I should show this to you next time I see you. Mitch sent me the videotape of my audition for arrested development.

Speaker 3 Wow. It's very touching to me.

Speaker 1 It really knocked me out. Why? In what way?

Speaker 2 Well, because that's what I have on film the moment.

Speaker 1 But is that the last time Jason was really Jason? Like right before Arrested Development?

Speaker 3 Maybe that's what was so touching about it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We lost him.

Speaker 1 He was like a real guy. Yeah, like a real boy.

Speaker 3 He came in, and what's amazing, I have to show it to you. I wish we could, but let's run the clip.

Speaker 2 Oh, shit. No, no, we're on a podcast.
Mitch, this is a podcast.

Speaker 1 Mitch, we can't run it. We don't, we're not running clips.
It's a podcast. Yeah.
Yeah. What the fuck am I doing on a podcast?

Speaker 1 It's a great question. What are any of us?

Speaker 3 So all that stuff about how I look, nobody can see me?

Speaker 1 They have to take our words out. No, no, no, no.
But

Speaker 2 they're sound hydrated, though.

Speaker 3 All right. I'm taking these teeth out.
Hold on.

Speaker 1 Wait, Mitch,

Speaker 1 you seem like you love actors and actors love you. Do you love actors? Do you love working with the great ones and the difficult ones and the ones in between?

Speaker 3 I suppose I do.

Speaker 3 I'd love playing with creative people. And I just want to round out the story about Jason because it shows.
Yeah, let's get back to that. Let him finish, guys.
I just have to say it.

Speaker 3 I wish people could see it because what's so striking about it is there's Jason with all his charisma and his understated talent and his

Speaker 3 unique focus. I mean,

Speaker 3 he has this thing that I really, you seldom see in actors. He's just in it for the first moment.

Speaker 1 Money. Always.

Speaker 3 It did seem early to negotiate. And I was surprised that we went so quickly into that.

Speaker 3 You were like, did you like that? Did you like that?

Speaker 1 I can give you a deal on that.

Speaker 3 I can give you that. I can give you that all day long.

Speaker 2 For a price.

Speaker 2 The start of the rest of my life.

Speaker 3 But he, you know, he looks different. Your hair was long.
You're kind of a little looser. You were playing the character.
It wasn't as kind of uptight as Michael Bluthbeat can.

Speaker 1 We're all begging for that day back. Oh, yeah.
We can't wait for Luce Jason to come back. Luce Jason, we've been waiting for since 2004.
For Luce Jason? You know what?

Speaker 1 I remember going into that audition when I finally went to the network. And Jason, you were there.
And I was, I don't know what kind of notion I had about who you were.

Speaker 1 Definitely you were a guy who had been doing it a long time. And you seem like a sort of LA insider guy to me that like you knew everybody, you knew the process.
You'd worked a ton.

Speaker 1 I was a fucking nobody who was just trying to get a job. And I was like,

Speaker 1 but you were such a, and what's amazing is the second you meet you, you're so warm, you're so

Speaker 1 giving. And, and, and sorry, we're talking about me or Mitch.
You. Oh, you.

Speaker 3 So keep going. This is a perfect job for me to talk about you guys.

Speaker 2 I thought you were talking about Mitch.

Speaker 1 Well, Mitch made the mistake of saying to me right before, right before I was going to go in and audition for the network, and I remember it was a Monday morning, I'd flown out to LA and he goes, you're going to get this.

Speaker 1 So listen, I go, don't say that. What are you crazy?

Speaker 3 Well, it's what I said after it that was really horrible.

Speaker 1 That you didn't. You should not get this.

Speaker 3 No, that I still wake up thinking about it. He came out.

Speaker 3 I loved him immediately, just like I love Jason. You know, I just...

Speaker 3 Will?

Speaker 3 Yeah, Will came out from that audition.

Speaker 3 Or he, I guess you left first, and then I stepped out of the room and I grabbed him and I said, you got it. You got it.
They love you.

Speaker 3 And then I looked over to the left and there were two more guys waiting.

Speaker 1 Holy

Speaker 1 And one of them was Rain Wilson. He was a great, I mean, he ended up doing okay.

Speaker 2 Yeah, had he gotten job, he wouldn't have gotten the office and got a longer run.

Speaker 3 Oh, the people that were there were all great, but they're, but you know how it is with casting. I often

Speaker 3 wish that actors could experience what it's like to be on the other side of that casting desk because, or in my case, couch or bed or futon. We had a futon.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, you can't. Not anymore.
No more, no more, no more, no more.

Speaker 3 Well, you can with guys right don't even joke about it no you can no you can't okay you can't even make jokes can i use sexist language yeah don't feel good here okay um if you uh so you're saying if the actors could see the other side of the process it would be less daunting i imagine i mean you would have to tell me but i imagine for you guys early on in your career these are all fortunately thankfully distant memories for you guys, but that there was a lot of preparation that went into auditions and then there was a lot of, you know, you're focused on yourself and a lot of self-examination and you get in there and you don't maybe do exactly what you'd planned.

Speaker 3 And you feel like, well, there it is. I blew it.
That's why I'm not getting it.

Speaker 3 And when you're on the other side of that casting futon, you really like people come in and you immediately know that they're right or they're not right for that particular and they haven't even started reading yet.

Speaker 3 And it's not about the talent. We haven't even seen if they're talented.

Speaker 1 Mitch, I remember when

Speaker 1 you and I did this short-lived show, Running Wild, and you said to me before that process, you were like, we were going through the casting process and you said, wait till you, exactly what you're saying, wait till you see how different this process is when you're not on the other side.

Speaker 1 It was the first time I'd ever had, been on that side of the, the, um, bouton.

Speaker 1 No, it was more like a kneeling rug.

Speaker 3 And it was a kneeling rug because,

Speaker 1 right.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 why was I kneeling all the time? Anyway, the point is this. I thought you got the job.

Speaker 1 But you're right. And what struck me was that people would come in and people that I knew or that we knew collectively would come in.

Speaker 1 And it was, we never, ever, ever, when somebody left, we never once went, that guy sucks. Never.
Ever. Never.
Never.

Speaker 3 No, in fact, you're so focused on, I mean, I don't know that everybody's this way, but we certainly were. I mean, it's maybe goes to the question of loving actors, but, you know.

Speaker 3 People are offering you something.

Speaker 3 They're offering you something from their heart and that they worked on. And

Speaker 3 there's need there too. So

Speaker 3 you so distinctly feel the privilege of that position. Yeah.
Um, and it's such a temporary privilege. So it's not like you, you walk around feeling that way, but in that moment you do.

Speaker 3 And the problem I've always had is I spend too long with the people who don't have a chance

Speaker 3 because I know they don't have a chance and I want them to have a good experience.

Speaker 1 So yeah, well, that's because that's the difference between you and other people in your position who don't approach it that way and don't approach treating other people that way.

Speaker 1 That's why everybody loves you and you work and you're talented and everybody wants to keep going with you because there are some people out there that don't have respect for

Speaker 1 feelings.

Speaker 3 That's great. Could you, I'm sorry, Sean.
Yeah. Let's do that again.

Speaker 1 And just don't be, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Like, just bring yourself to it. Okay.
I don't know who this character is you're playing.

Speaker 1 Okay, are we still, did we cut or are we still?

Speaker 3 Oh, I'm doing it again, aren't I? I'm doing it right now.

Speaker 2 Thank you. On this subject, in all seriousness, and

Speaker 2 I think everybody in the audience, all three of them, can relate, even though they might not be in the business, probably aren't, probably couldn't care less about the casting process, but could relate to this question, hopefully, which is you as a writer, I think everybody can imagine that they might write something.

Speaker 2 And when you write something, you imagine what the house would look like, what the person would look like, how they would say a certain line.

Speaker 2 How do you enjoy or not enjoy the process of seeing your imagination come to life? And how fair are you about assessing whether what you're seeing is different or is it wrong? What is that process?

Speaker 3 So interesting. It's all like I probably in any creative process, probably what you guys do, it's all control and then lack of control.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like it's true left and right side of the brain because

Speaker 3 you're kind of editing at all times.

Speaker 3 You're managing your own expectations and then you're also trying to let go and be in a flow. And for me,

Speaker 3 it immediately becomes our thing, not my thing.

Speaker 3 So it lives as my thing in my head for a long time. And maybe, you know, Michael Bluth looks like a young version of my father or looks like my brother or something and sounds like him.

Speaker 3 And then as soon as it's Jason,

Speaker 3 a different part of my brain is activated, really. And now I'm trying to do, I feel like I'm trying to give you guys what will allow you to shine and will allow you to be creative and find it.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's not, it's not really that conscious. It's just that, like, how crazy would it be to have Sean Hayes and not and try to get him to talk like me?

Speaker 1 Believe me, I've tried. Nobody likes it.

Speaker 2 It's not as common as you think, where what you would assume is common sense that, well, now that it's become three-dimensional and there's actually a physical face and a sound and everything that you would pivot and be able to adapt to that.

Speaker 2 I've found that some of the more uncomfortable times that I've worked is when I feel like I'm getting a note or direction from a writer or a director because they're trying to make you do what they have always imagined it to be as opposed to reacting to what you're bringing to it and consequently what the audience is going to be receiving.

Speaker 3 But even that is probably more prevalent in pilots or in maybe in films. Like in television, so much of, certainly in comedy.

Speaker 3 In comedy, so much of it is the immediacy between the performer and sometimes the closeness of the performer to the person because you just have to be able to access that all the time.

Speaker 3 I mean, I keep pivoting back to Sean because, you know, his character and Will's were both, they were both broad characters.

Speaker 3 And yet, you brought something real from who you are, which is very different than Jack and very different than Job. Well, the Jack and Job, I mean, I think we could go out and sell that right now.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 It's just happened.

Speaker 3 Jack and Job.

Speaker 1 As a show?

Speaker 3 Okay, Job and Jack. We had to get Will on board.

Speaker 1 On ice.

Speaker 1 Sorry, it would have to be Willernet as Job and Jack.

Speaker 3 I do that. Well, I think you're just one of the guys.

Speaker 1 No, I'm saying Willernet as Job and Jack.

Speaker 1 That's how you know. By the way, where do I sign? That sounds like a great deal.

Speaker 3 It's great. It's one of the few parts where it's a two-hander, but you kind of get to be a third banana.
And I think that could be a great opportunity for Sean.

Speaker 1 Really just step back. Have you listened to the podcast? So,

Speaker 1 wait, I want to know.

Speaker 1 You're so infectiously funny and infectiously warm. Wow.
Like, I can't imagine somebody not getting along with you. Has there been difficult

Speaker 1 issues with certain personalities along the way that you had to figure out how to navigate yourself that you didn't know there was a side of you?

Speaker 1 You know, like, oh, I didn't, I've never dealt with this kind of person, so I have to shift in this.

Speaker 2 I can't imagine you not getting along with anybody.

Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying. There were a couple of times, it was early on where I was working with an actor on a show, on a pilot.

Speaker 3 God, I want to say his name.

Speaker 2 We'll give you half a beer.

Speaker 3 And everybody kept saying, oh boy, this is going to be difficult. You're going to have a hard time with him.
And I somewhat cockily sort of felt like, no, I like the guy. We'll get along great.

Speaker 3 And then after I was done shooting the pilot, they said, wow, that was really nice. He seemed to like you.
You know, he took a swing at the last show, Runner. You took a swing at him.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, wow. I might not have been so cavalier about the ease with which it was going to go down.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I remember working early on with Jeffrey Tambour. And as we all know, a lot of what we've heard about Jeffrey Tambour is Jeffrey is a pussycat.

Speaker 3 And he, like anybody, is prone to emotional outbursts, but never, I mean, he was never abusive or anything.

Speaker 3 But, you know, he was scary because he was older than me and he was a comedy god and everything. And I remember doing a show early with him.

Speaker 3 And the idea was, this was the same one that I was thinking of Sean for.

Speaker 3 It was something my father had done. where he used to complain about my brothers complaining.
You know, Michael,

Speaker 3 we got to to straighten him out. You know what we ought to do? Let's get out on a bridge in the car at some point.
And I'm just going to take the keys and

Speaker 3 I'm just going to throw them out over into the river.

Speaker 3 I said, I don't understand.

Speaker 1 He said, okay, you know what, we'll get a boat.

Speaker 3 We're going to get a boat and we'll go off of the coast to Dana Point or something. Then we'll get way out there and I'll just push the engine into the ocean.

Speaker 1 I said, well,

Speaker 3 what lesson could possibly accrue from this? And he said, well,

Speaker 3 I loved his response because he said, well, we're not going to be three skeletons just floating in the boat. I mean, something's going to happen.

Speaker 3 You know, we're not going to be just to end up on this bridge, three skeletons in a car.

Speaker 1 You know, life goes on.

Speaker 3 You can always overcome something.

Speaker 3 So I loved this idea.

Speaker 1 The idea of three skeletons sitting in a car.

Speaker 1 Figure out what to do.

Speaker 3 So the idea was, so I put that in a show. And the boys, you know,

Speaker 3 but they weren't 12-year-olds and 14-year-olds, they were like 25-year-olds and 28-year-olds, and they're arguing in the car.

Speaker 3 And so, Jeffrey Tambors, the father, throws the car into park and takes the key out and throws it into the river and says, God damn it, I'm not going to put up with this anymore. I love you guys.

Speaker 3 You're going to stop fighting. And then there was some punchline about something else they needed to get to, and they couldn't get to it.
And then he got hysterical.

Speaker 3 So it was just a little throwaway thing I wanted to get. He gets upset and he throws the keys.
And Jeffrey starts playing the scene.

Speaker 1 You know how he does that?

Speaker 3 Sometimes he's crying. His mouth goes down.

Speaker 1 And he's singing,

Speaker 1 I love

Speaker 1 you

Speaker 1 boys.

Speaker 3 And it's really, you know, like, and he's pounding on the dashboard. And, and, but it actually is having a very emotional reaction.

Speaker 3 I mean, the actors, they're both in the back seat because I wanted to kind of infantilize them. They're crying.

Speaker 1 So there's like three,

Speaker 3 there are no skeletons in the car. There's three weeping men, right? Different than I imagined, but it's, the scene is working great.

Speaker 3 And then a much bigger turn, as you can imagine, when he realizes at the end, oh, God, oh, God, what have I done?

Speaker 1 What have I done? I got to get to the, whatever. Your mother's in the delivery room.
Exactly. That's what it was.
It was like, your mother and my girlfriend are together.

Speaker 3 So after the thing, I was like, that was great.

Speaker 3 And Tony Thomas, who I worked for at the time, who's Danny Thomas's son, and he's been doing this for a long time, sticks his finger into my back and says, go tell him to bring it down.

Speaker 3 And I'm talking to three actors who understand what that means i mean you've just got an actor who's really exposed himself yeah i mean you can't you can't just pull that back you can't just and and and and i certainly don't want to be in a position of scolding somebody who's just opened themselves up in that way yeah so i that was an example of like all right i'm gonna have to find a way to

Speaker 3 supplicate such that when I do get around to giving the note, it's acceptable.

Speaker 1 Other than that one was for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay, we have one that way. I got that.

Speaker 1 So what did you say? What did you say?

Speaker 2 How'd you put your hands in the cage?

Speaker 3 So I, I, and, you know, he was big at that time, you know, he was like 300 pounds. And he's a teddy bear, you know, but still, I was brand new at this.

Speaker 3 So I had to walk out there, and I remember I stood there for a while. He said, ah, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with that?

Speaker 3 And the other actors were not helping because they were saying like, oh my God, that was the most incredible scene I've ever done in a comedy.

Speaker 1 That was incredible. And I said, oh,

Speaker 3 that was the one. That was it.
We got it. We got it.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 It's done. It's in the can.

Speaker 3 And then I took as long a pause as I possibly could.

Speaker 1 And I said, hey, why don't we do one just a little later, just for fun?

Speaker 1 He set his teeth

Speaker 3 and he went stomping around the set. And I was like, I don't know what to do.
I stood perfectly still. And I could, he was just embarrassed and upset.

Speaker 3 And, you know, like stomping around and stomping around. And then I got to, he wasn't, he didn't yell at me or anything.
He just, you could tell he was really pissed off.

Speaker 3 So I just sort of froze in place.

Speaker 3 And then when he finally kind of came back to where I was standing, I said,

Speaker 3 I got the sense that he started to feel like I might need a way out of this. So I said, I just meant to play with the levels.
And he said, oh, play with the levels. Shit, yeah, we'll do that.

Speaker 1 I'll do that all day long. I'm happy.
I'll play with the levels. I'm happy to play with the levels.
Yeah, his humor, his presence.

Speaker 2 His humor and presence was

Speaker 2 so intimidating. I remember the first day

Speaker 2 on Arrested when I was such a huge fan from the Larry Sanders show. And I walked up to him and I said,

Speaker 2 Mr. Tambor Jeffrey, Jeffrey's fine.

Speaker 2 I'm just so excited that we're doing this together and just really looking forward to the scene today. And just, I guess, just have a great day.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And he looked at me and said, don't you fucking tell me what to do.

Speaker 3 I know, it's his sense of humor.

Speaker 1 yeah that dry it killed me yeah i love it laughing my ass off i did a table read i jason i think with you many many years ago and i think it was with you it was a movie and it was a it was a big table read maybe it was his sister it could have been my sister maybe it was his sister justine it might have been and me and jeffrey got to the door jam at the exact same time and i never really met him that's the first time i met him and got to the door at the exact same time and he goes oh please in order of billing and he had to go first

Speaker 1 wow

Speaker 1 i remember i remember like the first season we were doing something and and then i ended up for some reason he gave me his phone number and i took it down and then he said

Speaker 1 how happy are you to get my phone number

Speaker 1 he's funny man never winks yeah that's so good

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Speaker 1 All right, back to the show. Mitch, Mitch, Mitch, take everybody, if you can, a couple of things I want to talk about.
You talked about working for Tony Thomas.

Speaker 1 You worked first at Golden Girls, is that right?

Speaker 3 Yes, well, I was a runner.

Speaker 1 We got to talk about that. I mean, it's one of my favorite shows ever.
It's one of the great shows.

Speaker 2 For Sean's sister, what does a runner do?

Speaker 3 You know, it really is a fairly thankless, like everybody.

Speaker 1 Just a short description because I want to get to the Golden Girls. Okay, yeah.

Speaker 3 What does it want to do?

Speaker 3 When entertainment began, and I mean entertainment

Speaker 3 the concept of one human being reaching out to another.

Speaker 1 Right, right, right.

Speaker 3 I'm trying to go quick, Sean, but I just got to give it the context.

Speaker 1 The Lunier Brothers.

Speaker 3 Okay, so

Speaker 3 Runner basically is

Speaker 3 the entry-level job on these shows, as you guys know, but I guess you're pretending you don't. And you, you know, use Xerox scripts and you deliver coffee.

Speaker 3 And I remember thinking, there must be, this is a mistake.

Speaker 3 This cannot be what, you know, because I'd given people spec scripts and I'd given a resume that I think even had some student body positions on there.

Speaker 3 I was padding a little bit.

Speaker 3 I see you were a treasurer at Estancia High School. Yes.
As a matter of fact, I learned a lot about responsibility.

Speaker 3 So, but suddenly I'm, you know, delivering coffee. And I wasn't even like at the time, I remember I had to go drive to Venice from Hollywood to pick up coffee at the Rose Cafe.

Speaker 3 and then I'd drive it all the way across town back to Hollywood, and then I'd hand it to the runner coordinator, and he would walk the six steps into Tony Thomas's office and Paul Witt's office and say, Here's your coffee.

Speaker 3 Let me know if there's any problem, and I would be happy to send somebody out and get a new coffee.

Speaker 1 And I remember going,

Speaker 1 I'm screwed. I'm never getting anywhere.

Speaker 3 I'll be a skeleton in the runner firm.

Speaker 1 Wait, Mitch, Mitch, at the time were you wearing, were you wearing a sport coat?

Speaker 3 Yes, so my father.

Speaker 3 I knew I was going to ask that yeah that's that was another good little piece of advice my father gave me because he we were he was very fit and i was a young guy and so we wore the same size sport coat he had he was a lawyer so he had all these like suits and sport coats and so i would just borrow them i'd just take them and it was his suggestion he said you know you want to create a mismatch he he knew david geffen a little and he always said you know david geffin came along at a time when all the managers and agents were dressing in three-piece suits and he came along and he was like an artist even though he was the most killer businessman of them all.

Speaker 3 And, you know, at that time, everyone was wearing, it was kind of grunge was in, and it was like torn t-shirts and stuff. And I was there, somehow, had the audacity to wear a sport coat every day.

Speaker 3 And it worked.

Speaker 1 It worked.

Speaker 3 Paul Witt, about, you know, like maybe two months into a job that should have taken years, said, you know, we've had our eye on you.

Speaker 1 There's something about you. And I was like, I wonder what, I wonder what it is.
This was Golden Girls.

Speaker 2 You were a runner on Golden Girls, and didn't you end up being one of the head writers?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I was especially right at the very end for the spin-off they did called The Golden Palace.

Speaker 2 So then how many years did that cover from entry-level position to basically the boss?

Speaker 3 It was fairly quick for me. It felt long.

Speaker 2 Five years, six, twelve?

Speaker 3 Well, I did. Then I became a development executive, and that was fairly brutal for me because I was, I had been a comedy writer in.
high school.

Speaker 3 You know, I read the high school plays and I just, I always loved comedy.

Speaker 3 And now I was reading, you know, really really at that time very hacky sitcom scripts because sitcoms were really hacky yeah and

Speaker 3 I just was going down this executive path so that was the downside of wearing the sport coat that was like this guy's got executive material did you end up writing a spec for golden girl how did that happen that you made that leap I think I wrote I wrote a spec yeah so a spec script is like a sample script and I had written a couple others.

Speaker 3 And so I wrote one for a show called Empty Nest. Before it was a show, it was just a pilot.
And

Speaker 3 that got their attention. And

Speaker 3 they just, I don't know, who cares?

Speaker 1 I think it's interesting. Wait, how many years?

Speaker 1 I mean, I'm a huge fan of the show, so I think it's fascinating. How many years did you write on the show?

Speaker 3 So I think I was a writer in full for the show for the last maybe three years of it.

Speaker 1 And did you ever get, did you get to know the actors?

Speaker 3 Oh, yes, very well.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And wasn't it true that Estelle Getty, wasn't she the youngest out of them?

Speaker 3 I don't think she was the youngest. I think Rue was, but she was young.
She was probably 67. And I think

Speaker 3 Rue was 57.

Speaker 1 Oh, wow. Wow.
Yeah. Wow.
Yeah, it was just so funny and clever, and we'd never seen anything like it. And of course, the writing was brilliant.
Golden Girls,

Speaker 1 the jokes were so good. There was

Speaker 1 great training for joke writing.

Speaker 3 And they could make anything work. And I loved Bea.
I had a great relationship with B. People were kind of scared of B,

Speaker 3 but she was, you know,

Speaker 3 this comment has been made before, but she was kind of

Speaker 3 tough on the outside and soft on the inside and and Betty was you know sort of softer on the outside and am I saying this backwards no no no no you got it they both had soft internal organs their internal organs

Speaker 1 those are medical conditions miss those are they're medical conditions

Speaker 1 and because of that dynamic between the two did they did they work together well did they collaborate

Speaker 1 say whatever you want

Speaker 3 It felt like a really good creative collaboration.

Speaker 3 You know, it was kind of like there are often those things like, you know, John Lennon and Paul McCartney, where there's one that's a little harder and one that's a little softer, kind of a matriarch and a patriarch.

Speaker 3 And that kind of played out with them.

Speaker 2 But they were really special.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 1 yeah,

Speaker 3 and my stuff, you know, it's been said before that like your style is formed by what you can't do. And sometimes it's by what you think you can't do.

Speaker 3 And when I started off there, I remember thinking, well, you know, these are experienced joke writers.

Speaker 1 I don't know how to write jokes.

Speaker 3 I mean, I loved comedy and I loved things that were funny, but I didn't know how to write that, you know, eight-word joke.

Speaker 3 And that show was, you know, it's what we kind of emulated with arrested, and certainly Will and Grace had this as well, you know, where it's like the setup is funny, the punchline is funny, the line after it is funny, the callback to the setup is funny, the incidental line that somebody throws in is funny.

Speaker 3 And so it was really tough training that way. But all my stuff kind of became story because I think I felt like I couldn't write those hard jokes.
I started,

Speaker 3 my stories were just really intricate and layered so that something would come up four times. And

Speaker 3 today's different kind of cumer.

Speaker 1 Today's a little, you just took a break from that kind of storytelling today. Yeah.

Speaker 3 It's just a ratta-tatter.

Speaker 1 Kind of to that idea that it became about story.

Speaker 1 I think that one of the things that, you know, you can go back and watch shows that were big hits in the 90s or early 2000s, legitimately great big shows that were funny at the time.

Speaker 1 That when you watch them now, they were so

Speaker 1 I don't know,

Speaker 1 the jokes just seem too

Speaker 1 written, probably. Well, no,

Speaker 1 it's more that they're just too of the time, so that they don't

Speaker 1 mean or yeah, and they do they just don't translate to today.

Speaker 1 So, you have, but what you've always maintained, and I remember, I don't know if you remember this, but

Speaker 1 I've learned so many great lessons from you, and one of them was that always be,

Speaker 1 I remember we were writing something you me and jimmy in that very room that in which you're sitting right now

Speaker 1 sitting yeah and and mitch you'd be sitting there at the with at the computer and we'd be pitching jokes jimmy valley great jimmy valley hilarious uh old friend of mitch's and partner and writing pal and just everything and uh we would be pitching jokes and you'd go And even to your own jokes, like just the three of us just talking, and you'd go, we'd laugh and laugh and laugh.

Speaker 1 And then you'd stop and you'd go, yeah,

Speaker 1 but it's just, it's not, it's not telling the story.

Speaker 1 And you'd put it off to the side you might put it in another folder but you're like we can't use that joke even though it's the best joke that we had heard in the last three hours yeah and even though a lot of those jokes you know ended up in other pilots i did that you guys never found out about

Speaker 1 but what i was trying to teach you was

Speaker 3 but you know what i mean like but like that was no but it's true i do think that that everything is story in a way and and everything

Speaker 3 that you know every laugh that you guys have ever gotten i mean there are ways to be be funny.

Speaker 3 You can, there are family guy things where they're just non-sequiturs that are funny, but, you know, it's just much funnier to,

Speaker 3 you know, for instance, for Sean to find out that what his mother was betting on at the supermarket were the fiberglass horses. That's a story.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 But there is something to like, like there's a non-sequitur, there's, you know, and then there's like, oh, but this is about a character. And, and it's why, I mean, it's.

Speaker 1 Wait, now, Mitch, let me ask you something. We always ask people like, what were your comedy influences when you grew up? But are there comedy people that you're drawn to today that what do you like?

Speaker 1 What do you, who do you admire now?

Speaker 1 Who's out there now that you're like, wow, I would love to write like that, or I'd love to meet that person because they're a great stand-up or I like their show or something in the comedy world?

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 I always just like funny people. I don't even have a good answer for that.
I mean, there are people that I just find

Speaker 3 oftentimes it's people who can completely

Speaker 3 consume the character or subsume or just be the character, I guess, is what I'm getting at.

Speaker 3 And it's what I always loved about what Jason does, that, you know, Jason played a character who was ostensibly a straight man on arrested development, but he was so much more. He had so many flaws.

Speaker 3 And Jason was able to play him with all his blind spots and what he doesn't see about himself. And,

Speaker 3 and you know i think of like just other contemporary funny people will and i were talking about friend armison the other day yeah and

Speaker 2 fred is so funny because he again it's like he just becomes this character right and that's kind of a function of story in a way do you see that what um uh that what the public considers funny changing um noticeably in the last year, in the last five years?

Speaker 2 Like, um,

Speaker 2 and if so, has it affected the way you approach sort sort of breaking a story or a concept, a premise for something funny?

Speaker 3 I feel like comedy's gotten less important out there. I don't know if you guys are.

Speaker 2 Meaning it's sillier or it's broader now?

Speaker 3 No, that there's not as much of it. People don't need it.

Speaker 1 There's no comedy features.

Speaker 3 There's no comedy. I know.
I think it's because there's been this big international movement and comedy typically doesn't work internationally. I mean, in fact, we know that it does,

Speaker 3 but that people are always scared of it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, people,

Speaker 1 Mitch, just to give it some context, which Mitch is kind of referring to, and certainly some of our friends even at Netflix will admit that, you know, you'd start to go in and pitch them shows over the last couple of years, and they're like, well, we need that show to resonate globally.

Speaker 1 And we think that those jokes globally. So those jokes about the guy who, we had a show, this jokes about the guy who works in Utah at this thing, those aren't really going to translate.

Speaker 1 And it's like, the fuck are you talking about? These are jokes. Jokes are jokes are jokes.

Speaker 3 Because comedy has to be specific and it has to be real. It has to be.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But if it's reliant on something that is only known to the domestic audience, it won't travel and therefore they won't spend as much or any perhaps.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't mean to call Netflix, I mean just everybody. I mean, that's an example.
But I mean that that unfortunately is kind of what Mitch was saying, that there is this idea that...

Speaker 3 Well, right, it used to be, it's almost like sitcoms got less funny for a while because they were trying to appeal to so many people.

Speaker 3 It was the lowest common denominator.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah.
But don't you you think, back to what you said about, you know, it doesn't seem like people care about comedy so much. Don't you think, well, a large part of it is due to the pandemic.

Speaker 1 Sure, it was a little bit before that, but don't you think it's about to turn? Don't you think about, don't you think people are looking for joy and laughter and anything other than just doom? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 I'll bet it's comedy. I know they are.

Speaker 1 You will disagree.

Speaker 3 I disagree.

Speaker 3 I know that people are looking for it.

Speaker 3 I don't know that the broadcasters are looking for it because it went from lowest common denominator to being really specific when Netflix and these places started out and you could do these sort of sub-genres and these little interesting looks at lifestyles and then now it has become it seems really big even a show like Ted Lasso which has a lot of laughs and everything is really clearly like designed and does it very effectively have you seen Chad to reach a lot of people I saw an early version of Chad which looked great so freaking funny.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? Nassim Padrad is from Saturday Night Live. Yeah.
She plays a teenage boy. And it's the funniest thing I've ever, it's hilarious.

Speaker 3 And it's taken them like maybe five or six years to get that show made because that pilot had been made four or five years ago.

Speaker 2 And do you think that they probably predetermined, well, we're only really our ambition for sort of audience size is only going to be X and therefore we'll price it accordingly and let's just do it.

Speaker 3 Well, I think that the pricing is part of the problem. I think things got really expensive.
You know, when we did Arrested, we did it very inexpensively. And I remember, I mean, we probably did it.

Speaker 3 All these numbers are huge by normal standards, but it was something probably like a million six or something to make an episode. Wow.

Speaker 3 And then right when we got done, I did a pilot at Sony and it was like $4,500,000.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 for a half-hour comment. Per episode?

Speaker 3 Yeah, but we didn't go. I mean, it was just too expensive for.

Speaker 3 So that's been part of the problem.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 would you rather, I don't know the answer, would you rather do something that is tonally specific but for a lesser price than something that would give you a big check but reach a gazillion people.

Speaker 3 That's a good question. I kind of think the big check is not even in the offing right now.

Speaker 1 Right. What if you were like only the big check?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Oh, I would, yeah, if there was, by the way, that would be choice one. Yeah, okay.
So, okay. Choice one, only the big check, no show.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't have to do anything.

Speaker 3 That's great. Choice two, big check, easiest show I could possibly do.

Speaker 2 Do you think they'd make a rest of development today?

Speaker 3 I don't think so.

Speaker 3 I think it was, I mean, it was barely made.

Speaker 1 That's true.

Speaker 3 And it was, because it was right at a cusp period where they were still going for the big audience. I don't know how we got that on the air.

Speaker 3 It was really just the will of the people that liked it at the network and at the studio.

Speaker 2 And do you think that these sort of unPC

Speaker 2 moments of humor in it would even be tolerated even by a niche audience today?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 3 That could be one of the reasons that comedy is challenged right now. Yeah.
That people are,

Speaker 3 I don't think it's, it's necessarily wrong. I mean, there have been a lot of people have taken it on the chin for a long time and there isn't an appetite for making fun of people.

Speaker 3 But of course, comedy is just making fun of individuals, not making fun of groups. And,

Speaker 3 you know, I mean, what you guys did on the show was always make fun of yourself.

Speaker 3 That's what I was talking about with blind spots, you know, and Job being full of bravado, but then a moment later just being completely fragile and devastated by some insult from his father.

Speaker 3 You know, it's like actors don't like to do that usually, and yet that's where all the great stuff is.

Speaker 2 I never forget, you told me once

Speaker 2 that sort of the correct me if I've got it wrong,

Speaker 2 that the recipe that you had in mind was that your job as writers were to make these characters as unlikable as possible, and that our job as actors is to make them as likable as possible.

Speaker 2 And the combination of those two things kind of allowed you guys to take these huge, what could be offensive swings.

Speaker 2 And then our ability, hopefully, to play ignorance or naivete would kind of give you the safe harbor to.

Speaker 1 First of all, I said that.

Speaker 1 Miss didn't say that.

Speaker 3 Got it. You might have said that.

Speaker 1 I said that.

Speaker 3 I believe that you said that because I have been credited with that before. And it doesn't quite sound like me, but I think one of the things that I had, the benefits that I had was that I knew like

Speaker 3 that in the DNA of the thing, my characters were in the wrong.

Speaker 3 Like they, they, and they would get their comeuppance, but it was easier to have them be politically incorrect when the point was that they were in a miserable life condition and that they were in the wrong.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, so to that extent, I was trying to show, okay, there's selfishness here and there's self-absorption and narcissism. But these people are entitlement.

Speaker 1 Yeah, these are people who are saying and doing things that are, that are, you know, that are sometimes aren't easy to stomach or sometimes distasteful or sometimes, you know, way off, way out of bounds.

Speaker 1 But what we're saying is, yeah, and that's who these people are. That's what makes them so peculiar and strange.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they're not right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're not right at all.

Speaker 3 They're human beings. They're flawed human beings that are provincial and scared and don't want to lose their entitlement, you know.

Speaker 1 Mitch, did you ever...

Speaker 1 You talked about writing when you were in high school and writing comedy and stuff, and you made that decision to not go into acting. Was there a moment?

Speaker 1 A seminal moment?

Speaker 3 That's a great question. Well, that's a great question.
And just for you other guys, because you're all trying to figure out who's the best host, that's the best question that's been asked.

Speaker 2 An unfinished question is even qualifying as the best.

Speaker 3 I know what he's asking. What he's asking is, why weren't you a major movie star? And I'm going to tell you the choice that I made.

Speaker 1 Was there a moment that could have led to that?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, I was less interested. I would have been, I don't know that I would have been considered an actor's actor.
I think I would have been considered a major action movie star.

Speaker 3 And the reason I didn't go down that road

Speaker 1 is quicker, faster.

Speaker 3 Well, okay, so quicker. So just the backstory is there was an audition for the movie Taps.
Sure.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 my drama teacher wanted to send me to it.

Speaker 3 And I didn't,

Speaker 3 the specifics don't matter. I think it was a Spanish class that took precedent.
Well, let's talk about the specifics.

Speaker 1 But the end of the story is you didn't get it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I didn't get it. I didn't go on it, but I also didn't get it.

Speaker 1 You didn't go on it.

Speaker 3 Had I gone on it and gotten it,

Speaker 3 then look at me.

Speaker 3 I'm Tom Cruise over here.

Speaker 1 You got the part. Oh, Tom Cruise.

Speaker 3 Oh, Tom Cruise got the part.

Speaker 3 And Tom's great. Tom's great.
I have no problem with Tom. Tom's great.

Speaker 1 Tom's talented and he does a different thing than I do.

Speaker 2 You would have denied the world the talents of Tom Cruise. No one would have known who Tom Cruise is.

Speaker 3 Did you not? Tom and I are very different. He could have, I don't know, maybe would have written a funny sitcom about four bachelors or something that lived together.

Speaker 1 But would you have seen yourself doing, making some of the same choices that Tom did?

Speaker 3 I would have made most of the same choices. I would not have made,

Speaker 3 as you know, I would not have,

Speaker 3 this isn't quite professional, but I would not have divorced Nicole Kidman.

Speaker 3 I would have made that work.

Speaker 3 And for a very, very simple reason, I think she's very pretty.

Speaker 3 And I don't think you disrespect that. I don't think you just.

Speaker 1 Mitch, are you comfortable sharing with us what you're working on next or what you are excited about?

Speaker 3 We're talking about, we're talking about our Mission Impossible 7. But what I would be working on, I'm sorry, what I would be working on or what I am working on? I misunderstood.

Speaker 3 No, but it would be MI7.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, MI7. I got it.
MI7.

Speaker 1 Well, the six left so many open-ended questions.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but MI.

Speaker 1 MI.

Speaker 3 Yeah. We've never done, they've never done a guy riding a motorcycle underwater, so I think MI7 has some room to play in that space.

Speaker 1 Paddle wheels.

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Speaker 2 Hey, Mitch, that question from Sean did get me thinking. And I'm going to go ahead and put you on the spot here on live podcast vision.

Speaker 2 What are the odds of Will and I ever working with you again? Are you working on anything that we could fit into?

Speaker 3 I mean, it's just an apology. I just need the apology, guys.

Speaker 1 I mean, I can't do it without the apology.

Speaker 2 Oh, well, I am sorry. Let me just give you a blanket apology.

Speaker 1 Why was that so hard? Spell it out.

Speaker 2 Anytime you use it for anything you want.

Speaker 3 I mean, I would love to. God, there's nothing I'd love more.
I mean, that's one of the problems I was so spoiled by working with you guys and

Speaker 3 everybody on that show, really.

Speaker 2 Let's come up with a show right now. Let's have a little.

Speaker 2 So let's say, uh and sean you can be in it too so it's three are are we are we brothers or are we co-workers sorry hang on hang on it's set in la okay it's set in la because we have families and are we brothers are we brothers or are we co-workers mitch um yeah are we brothers or co-workers i'm gonna say brothers and co-workers brothers okay co-workers great love it's good and you're physically very abusive with each other and this is where we get into a little bit of the three streets territory so forgive me but physical comedy you're pokers familiar to me you're pokers and your your prodders and your pullers and your

Speaker 1 hey, quit horse and around you, too. You're disturbed in my clock.

Speaker 3 Sean, that was the most amazing Larry Fine. I can't believe you even discovered that you knew how to do Larry Fine.
I didn't.

Speaker 1 I used to do a lot.

Speaker 2 Have you ever heard him play piano?

Speaker 3 I have no doubt he can do a lot of different things.

Speaker 1 No, I used Billy West to taught me how to talk like Larry.

Speaker 3 Oh my God, that was.

Speaker 1 Because it's the same as Ren and Stimpy. He's the voice of Ren and Stimpy, and he said I used Larry from the Three Stooges to talk like Stimpy.
So if you ever get stuck, just watch this video.

Speaker 3 But it was for, do it, just do a little of it.

Speaker 1 Hey, quit hoes and around you, too. You'd have stayed in my coffee, bro.

Speaker 1 Wait, now do it. Now do it.

Speaker 3 And how about how Will transformed himself into a horse?

Speaker 1 Like, do a little of it. That's hard.
Do a little of the horse, Will. Do the horse.
I've been doing it. I've been doing it.
Oh, you have been doing this is the horse.

Speaker 2 That's what it sounds like on the show.

Speaker 1 This is the horse. I gotta watch that.
Oh, yeah, I guess it is. Jason's, you've never watched it.
When does Will get back?

Speaker 1 Can I talk to Will then? You've never, you've never.

Speaker 2 I stopped watching cartoons when I was,

Speaker 2 you know,

Speaker 1 a kid. boy, that's a really tidy answer.
That's really tidy.

Speaker 2 I'm waiting for a few hundred of them to be made so then I can really binge it.

Speaker 1 Oh, is that what you're doing? Your behavior is diabolical. Your behavior is diabolical, Jason.
Listen, Sean has never seen arrested development, Mitch, and he didn't want to admit it. I have.

Speaker 1 I've seen the first three episodes.

Speaker 3 It's hard to get around to watching something, particularly that

Speaker 3 We've always had this problem with Arrested that people kind of thought it was a smart show.

Speaker 1 It was

Speaker 1 critics trying to be nice. I'm not kidding.
I laughed out loud. The reason why I haven't watched it is because I'm fucking lazy.
I don't watch anything. I read, I read,

Speaker 1 I watch news stuff.

Speaker 2 What do you read? What do you, I'm curious, what do you read?

Speaker 1 Right now, I'm reading the mind-body connection.

Speaker 2 So, non-fiction, you read mostly. I don't think Will reads a lot of nonfiction.
I do read a lot of non-fiction. What about you, Mitch? Are you a reader?

Speaker 3 I am.

Speaker 2 Fiction or non?

Speaker 3 Sort of both, but mostly nonfiction, I have to say.

Speaker 1 Mitch is a voracious reader. Mitch, one time we were flying to London, and he was

Speaker 1 reading that book

Speaker 1 remember i was taking notes in it he was reading the book about the what is the china what was it called the um the china study the china study and so we it's like you know we leave la it's a 12-hour flight and we settle down and i fall asleep i sleep the whole flight and we're just pulling it and mitch is there and he's got his lights on and he's like and he's been reading he's the exact same position as when we took off from la and he's been taking notes and he's like hey by the way did you know that we shouldn't be eating any meat and uh we should also only be eating legume that are grown in our own backyards and a lot of people?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it really changed me.

Speaker 3 It really changed me until we were about like almost all the way to baggage claims.

Speaker 3 And I think there was some meat thing in pastry that we got a few of them.

Speaker 1 So you like that kind of stuff.

Speaker 3 You like neurology? I do.

Speaker 3 And, you know, neurology is everywhere right now. Neurology is so interesting.

Speaker 1 You've always been into that, though. That's been a big...
That's brain stuff.

Speaker 3 It's fascinating. Yeah.
And just

Speaker 3 it's just responsible for everything, even our notions of ourselves.

Speaker 1 Well, and you know, our God, it's our second brain match.

Speaker 1 Oh, I love this character.

Speaker 1 First of all, you've been reading up on neurology for years.

Speaker 2 Teach me something about neurology, Mitch, right now.

Speaker 1 No, I think this is, by the way, this is interesting.

Speaker 1 I think one of the things I love about, Mitch, about the way that you write and the way that you approach characters and story is you do read a lot about not just

Speaker 1 about how the brain works, but about how people work. And I think all that shit informs your writing in ways that you don't, you're not even necessarily conscious of.
It might, might.

Speaker 1 The China studies taught you anything. But no, but I mean, you do.
You love that shit. It's the kind of shit you talk about.

Speaker 1 You'll constantly go, Do you know that when people have a relationship with another person, that they have made a connection and you'll bring up something that strikes you?

Speaker 1 And I think it makes its way into your characters.

Speaker 3 I mean, that particular one was just a way of saying, you know, include me in things, Will, be my friend.

Speaker 1 No, no, but you know what I mean. I could use it.

Speaker 1 I'll be happier and that will make you happier.

Speaker 2 There is a level of intelligence that is just

Speaker 2 unbelievable with your writing. Do you think that you gave enough of that intelligence to your offspring?

Speaker 2 Do you, because I was talking about this the other day, this is a pivot to a new subject. I don't want to hurt anybody, but hurt you with whiplash.

Speaker 2 But I was talking to somebody the other day about nature versus nurture, and you really can't really conduct that study inside your house until you have two children and you do have two beautiful daughters.

Speaker 2 And so do you see the like, oh, well, this one got a lot of this and this one got a lot of that? Are they, are they, are they, they're both out of the house now, right?

Speaker 3 No, they've both been home. They should have been out of the house, but they've both been home because of COVID.
So it's been kind of a blessing, but a blessing that I don't realize is a blessing.

Speaker 3 Like it's just something I know I'm going to look back on and think, God, I had that little gift.

Speaker 2 Were you enjoying the empty nesting and now and now? We never got a chance to.

Speaker 1 Oh, really? Never happened.

Speaker 1 We never had a chance.

Speaker 3 We never had a chance but you know don't you discover i i think that the the biggest illusion is that these children take after us i think they are just they are just their own people oh you really think that you i do yeah but it's an illusion it's a really prevalent illusion and particularly with traits that maybe you don't like about yourself that i you know maybe because i've been interested in comedy or maybe just because i'm a jerk i tend to like see flaws all the time you know i see flaws in people i see i see cliches that are used.

Speaker 3 I see behavior that, you know, and I can be very critical of that.

Speaker 3 And then I'll see my younger daughter will have a really sharp, quick response about somebody struggling to get into a, you know, past a car door or something and say, oh, look at this. Here we go.

Speaker 3 Look at this. You know, I'm like, yeah, that's right.
So that feels like that's from me.

Speaker 1 That's interesting, though, because I never, I always thought about that like it's wiring.

Speaker 3 I mean, listen, we know that negative experiences are far more powerful than positive experiences.

Speaker 3 And there's, you know, an evolutionary reason for that and the differential rate of those that survive that pay attention to negative experiences.

Speaker 3 And so, you know, you know that you can influence a child for the worse.

Speaker 1 That's undeniable.

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Giving them praise and undue accolades is

Speaker 2 not that beneficial because

Speaker 2 evolutionarily speaking, the human body kind of like discounts those things almost immediately, right?

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's been actually a lot of studies that I, you know, won't be able to quote here, but that about, you know, talk about things that are, that are unintuitive.

Speaker 3 You're not supposed to tell children that they're smart. Like smart is really not a great thing to tell a kid.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, you got that right.

Speaker 3 You're really smart. They've done tests where kids that are told that are smart, like they're given, they take third graders and they give half of them, they give them each the same test.

Speaker 3 They tell half of them, hey, you did well, you're smart. And they tell the other half, hey, you did well.
You really work hard. You don't give up.

Speaker 3 Then they give those same kids a fifth grade math test, which they couldn't possibly finish. They don't have the skills yet or the tools.

Speaker 3 The kids that were told, hey, you're really smart, they give up on it much faster. Almost 100% of the people stop taking the thing and say, this is stupid.

Speaker 3 I don't like it because they have something to lose now.

Speaker 3 They have,

Speaker 3 I'm smart to lose. And the kids that weren't told that, but were told, well, you work hard, well, they tend to stay with that test longer and get some benefit from it.

Speaker 1 Is it kind of like I've been told I'm smart, so I don't have to try? Like, I already did that.

Speaker 3 I think it's probably more that you don't want. I mean, I have a lot of this.
Like I worry about doing something that's not good enough. I worry about,

Speaker 1 oh, okay, great, great.

Speaker 3 And who gets edited in for me?

Speaker 3 But you can imagine that you would then go to take a language class or

Speaker 3 learn the piano or a skill that you can't be good at. instantly unless there's just some alternate wiring that's going on that gives you that special ability.

Speaker 3 And, you know, you take three piano lessons, you say, this is stupid. I'm not going to, I can't do this because you haven't been praised for your determination and your forbearance.

Speaker 3 You know, you've been praised for just already being able to do something. And we can't already do something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Right.
Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. You don't know anything till you learn it.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So you're taught it.

Speaker 3 But I have to reteach myself that all the time. I mean, a lot of that has to do with like pushing yourself to be curious.
I'll start a project and I'll think, oh, this isn't going to be good, though.

Speaker 3 This isn't going to be good, or it's too similar to something else.

Speaker 3 And I'll have to kind of shut off that voice and tell myself to be curious about the experience of this and not to focus on that result and to just see if there's something along the way in the journey of putting it together that is beneficial.

Speaker 1 I love that. And so to that point,

Speaker 1 do you have something that you're working on that you love that you're going to take out soon?

Speaker 3 You know, there are a few things.

Speaker 3 It's tough to talk about this because I'm working with some other people and I I don't want to jeopardize everything. But there are a few things that I, the stuff that I'm

Speaker 3 most interested in doing and that I'm telling you we should do together is stuff that breaks the form a little bit. Because I think you'd need...

Speaker 3 We've got to shake it up a little bit.

Speaker 1 Agree.

Speaker 3 And, you know, whether things, I mean, you guys all have, I think there's a way to redo the multicam with like a lot more improv in and a lot.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to do that.

Speaker 3 You know, yeah, you and I agree with that, Jason.

Speaker 1 Connect with the audience.

Speaker 1 Or who woke up, Will.

Speaker 2 Somebody woke up Will.

Speaker 3 No, Will, not connect with the audience.

Speaker 1 Back to bed. Feel the laughter.
No.

Speaker 3 Okay, well, a little bit of feel the laughter.

Speaker 1 Break the form.

Speaker 3 And I remember, I think that was what was fun about when we were all working together. And there were so many grand aspirations that we never did.

Speaker 3 Like, do you remember, I was thinking about this yesterday, when we were trying to get David Cross's character, who was an actor, a wannabe actor, Tobias, to actually appear on house as a regular, as Tobias, like the actor Tobias.

Speaker 3 And that on our show, he would be like going off to work and, you know, we'd be behind the scenes of their show.

Speaker 3 And on their show, it would just be an actor who just wasn't very good, but wouldn't have to carry a lot of pipe or anything. And

Speaker 3 I remember the showrunner saying, like, well, why are we the fake world?

Speaker 2 Because you share the stage next to us.

Speaker 1 Exactly.

Speaker 3 Well, we want to be the real world and have you be the fake world.

Speaker 1 It's like, no,

Speaker 1 just be

Speaker 3 it's funnier. But that's the stuff that we, you know, remember we were, the other thing we were going to do like that was we were going to do a live show

Speaker 3 in between, like we were going to do a two-part season of Arrested Development on Netflix.

Speaker 3 And then in the middle of it, like the characters were going to do this live show, this rally to fundraise for Buster. And then we were going to actually do the live show.

Speaker 1 Oh, that's cool. That's a good idea.

Speaker 3 Raising money for themselves and then air that is a special. And that's the stuff.

Speaker 3 Maybe it's just avoidance of the actual hard job of just writing characters and letting them be funny. But like, I do find that that's the stuff that appeals to me.

Speaker 3 Like, let's do two shows and have them interact somehow.

Speaker 1 Mitch, do you sometimes get distracted from having to do that shit? Get distracted by like a funny idea. And then you're just like,

Speaker 1 this seems like so fun, much more fun than the hard work of what I'm doing right now.

Speaker 3 I mean, I think that is the big secret to like comedy writing. We've had this experience together is like everything is just about what's funny.

Speaker 3 You know, you kind of, after the fact, you engineer what you're getting at and what the character's growth means and all that. But really, it starts with what would be funny.

Speaker 1 Mitch, what about, what about, what would you say to a 12-episode? I'm not offering this yet, so don't say like sold. I'm in.

Speaker 3 Okay, sorry.

Speaker 1 Oh, shit. No, I'm saying,

Speaker 1 don't say I'm in. To a 12-episode order of

Speaker 2 multiple.

Speaker 1 didn't say sold.

Speaker 3 I said, let's do it.

Speaker 1 You did say, let's do it. 12-episode multi-cam episodes of Arrested.

Speaker 2 Oh, God, I was hoping you were going to say that.

Speaker 1 I'm in.

Speaker 3 Oh, that would be fantastic. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Do the sitcom version with a live studio audience.

Speaker 3 Do an alternate thing. Yeah.
And then like,

Speaker 3 and then maybe we'll borrow a little from WandaVision and we'll make it like, oh, it's all through time. Yeah.
No, I always thought our show would work as a multi-cam because

Speaker 3 who plays Lucille Bluth? I know. Sean Hayes.

Speaker 1 Sean Hayes. Oh, my God.
Staring you right in the face. Yep.
Sean

Speaker 1 Hayes. Slap a wig on me.
It's just another Tuesday. Well, we're not going to slap it.
We're going to glue. We're going to do a bulb cap first.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I think we want the wig to be really.

Speaker 2 It would make as much sense.

Speaker 1 We want the wig to be really right. We got great.
Go ahead. Sorry, Jason.

Speaker 2 Yeah, who played? Who did you play?

Speaker 1 I'm just saying we have good wig people.

Speaker 3 Just take a wig off, Sean, and obviously put another better wig on him and just shoot the thing.

Speaker 1 Or just take one off and leave the one that's on underneath it. Right.
Well, Well, you're because you're double. Let's do a fucking...
Let's do

Speaker 1 arrested development.

Speaker 3 Can I call you Milt? Is that okay? Okay, name Milt? Milt.

Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sean, are you okay with Milt? Yeah, Milt.

Speaker 2 We're going to go all the way back to three camera. And it's going to be dollies.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Multicam arrested.
Live band. Why not?

Speaker 3 Let's do it.

Speaker 3 Let's do a multicam and like behind the scenes of a multicam or something at the

Speaker 1 same show. We don't need to be.

Speaker 2 The whole sort of,

Speaker 2 what do they call it? When casts come back together um reunion oh reunion

Speaker 1 yeah those are all the rage and you still and you still don't think you should read huh

Speaker 2 some words are tough for me um yeah we'll do one of those and then we'll we'll we'll we'll roll it right into a uh to a quick 22-minute uh episode we'll just walk right over

Speaker 3 love it and we'll get everybody back together we'll get dr house we'll get tobias we'll get we're not getting done

Speaker 1 right they said no

Speaker 2 what about when tobias's hair transplant rejected the

Speaker 3 graph versus host?

Speaker 1 Graff versus host. David Cross's commitment to every scene.

Speaker 3 Oh, God damn it. Everybody was funny in the thing, but David,

Speaker 3 David was so. And I think David might be the most unlike his character.
Could be, yeah. Everybody was unlike their character.
Yeah, it could be.

Speaker 2 But very similar

Speaker 2 in his comfort with being offbeat.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 3 But he's very offbeat and he's very cool. And Tobias is

Speaker 3 not offbeat and uncool.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 We all know who is closest to their character. Don't say it.

Speaker 2 And that's our cue.

Speaker 1 And that's our cue. Mitch, thank you so much for being here.
I'm going to pick up the China story and I'm going to check my email to see if I got about everything's relative.

Speaker 1 Fingers crossed.

Speaker 3 If you got the yes on that.

Speaker 1 Check my messages. And I will be by your house later to drop off a pie.

Speaker 1 You know what?

Speaker 3 Because of COVID, we just use the pie slot now, which is around the side.

Speaker 1 Okay, great.

Speaker 1 You see, it's just just pieces put it in a pie slot you put it in a pie slot we could fit in a wig fitting when I'm over

Speaker 3 that's well I would love to do that John I'd love to it's gonna sound creepy but I'd love to get my hands on you

Speaker 1 not creepy at all here's the sad part that doesn't sound creepy at all okay good I'm have my fingers crossed you just can't see it it's so nice to meet you though and my my friends I love you love you

Speaker 1 I love you too love you love you love you say hello to Mary Joe please yes I will. Thank you.

Speaker 1 This has been the greatest first part of an interview that we've ever done. We're going to pick this up at a later date.

Speaker 1 We're going to have you back in like six months. We need to have more Mitch Hurts in our life.

Speaker 3 Right on. Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right, good. Love you, Pat.
All the best.

Speaker 3 All my best. Bye.

Speaker 1 Guys, I don't know him, obviously, like you do. I love that man.
Warm, friendly, hilarious. He's the funniest.

Speaker 2 He's the funniest, nicest, smartest, most talented. He's the funniest.
I mean, I truly would have done that show forever.

Speaker 1 I'm jealous.

Speaker 2 Just because of him him and because of all the people, 100% of the people that were there in front of the camera and off. Just a great, great.

Speaker 1 Love it.

Speaker 2 Very fortunate period in my life for sure. Will, what do you think? You hated the whole experience, didn't you? Yeah.

Speaker 1 Did you not like it? Yeah, I hated it. I hated it.
Every day, I remember every day going on to the lot at Fox and just thinking.

Speaker 1 Every day thinking, I can't believe I get to do this today. That's so great.
I love that. Every fucking day was the best.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 even the days were like I took a dump in Jason's trailer and turned the heat up.

Speaker 2 And I got you back by putting the tuna salad up in your closet you couldn't find for a few months.

Speaker 1 Did you really do that? Yeah, almost a year in my trailer.

Speaker 2 And I was like, screaming at the Teamsters.

Speaker 1 Can I get a new trailer for God's sake? I never screamed.

Speaker 1 I never screamed at a Teamster. But

Speaker 1 it was such a great experience. And it was the people.
We got to, he led from the top with this just great energy. and it was always about

Speaker 1 there was such a safety net there. Of there was no wrong, there was no wrong answer.
It was just kind of felt like you were always just trying to do the funniest version of the scene.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and uh, you could kind of try anything. He seems like a really fun guy that you'd want to hang out with, that you'd maybe want to go grab a bite

Speaker 1 with a mic.

Speaker 1 I'll allow it by smart

Speaker 1 Smart

Speaker 1 boss.

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