"Bob Odenkirk"

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All right.

I know we want to get started here on the show,

but I just got an email from my mom.

Yeah?

What does it say?

Classic.

It's just a list of words as alternatives for swear words

because she thinks I swear too much on the show.

She gave you a whole list of swear words. Yeah's giving me like one like like 11 alternatives yeah wow

anyway this is fucking smart list let's go

smart Smart

Smart

Smart smart less smart less hi talking hi hi talking talking loving learning wait is that are we let's just change the title of this thing to talkers you think that's a good I don't think it's too late talkers and we could you sound a little hoarse well it's just that's a good... I don't think it's too late.
Talkers. And we could...
You sound a little hoarse. Well, it's just...
That is a... That is a...
It's a Think Bar looking for freebies. And this is, again, Think Bar.
That's T-H-I-N-K with an exclamation point. Too bad it wasn't helping with your thinking.
Yeah, I was just going to say, and that goes down great with smart water. That's great.
This is why you're on the Talkers podcast. I'm so happy that you do most of your thinking.
You don't do most of your thinking out loud. I'm sitting here uncomfortably.
I've got one of, very sweetly, the other day I hurt, I tweaked my back. And so I've been kind of laid up.
And all of a sudden, Jason appeared at my house. True story.
And he brought me over three of those icy hot patches for me. I know.
I didn't even ask him. He just showed up.
And that's- When was this? Two days ago? Was that weird? I mean, it's, you know, I do something super, super nice twice a year. Maybe, no, probably once a year.
It was unsolicited. And he showed up and I was sitting there and he just showed up and he gave it to me.
And it was really, I've got one on right now. I think I may have revealed how much I love you there.
It was very sweet. Now I'm shy.
I know. Maybe you can come over and bathe me then.
You know, I just want to say, so we've got a guest on here today, a guy who— Does somebody have a washing machine going? Yeah, well, they're very busy. And by the way, it's right on brand for our guest because he's a very busy guy and has been for a long time.
He's a man who wears many, many different hats. He's a, in my eyes, in my view, a comedic god.
He was on SNL. He worked on Conan as a writer.
He created some really iconic sketches at SNL. He then moved to, then he came back out here to California, where he's originally from Illinois, near where Sean's from.
Oh, wow. Who is this? And they work on SNL? Worked on SNL, wrote on the Ben Stiller show, then

created a show with our friend David called Mr. Show with Bob and Dave.

Oh, yes, of course.

Ladies and gentlemen.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Bob Oda Kurtz.

Hello.

Gosh.

Wow.

I love you brought us right up to it.

We got it.

Come on.

You got that.

You got that from me moving around my kitchen.

You should have heard the names in my head I was shuffling through.

Sudeikis was there for a second, and then no.

I don't think there's a Chicago there.

Look at you, Bobo.

Yeah, there is, I think.

Wait, what part of Chicago?

He did a little bit of Chicago.

He did, yeah.

Well, he was in Second City.

Pretty sure he's a Chicago guy.

Wait, Bob, what part of Chicago?

Well, I went to college my first year where you're from Sean Which college? I went to COD You did? College of DuPage? I lived two blocks from there That's our cue Will, let's take a tight five I was 16 when I went to college No way That's not surprising So I was kind of afraid of going away to college I felt like I young. I would really not.
Well, did we grow up near each other then if you went to College of DuPage? Yeah, I went to Naperville. I grew up in Naperville.
That's insane. I grew up in Glen Ellyn.
You know what? That's so funny because when Jason was 16, he dropped out of eighth grade. So that's like this very similar story.
Now, so 16, you went to college at 16. That means you're one of those not dumb guys.

No.

You and Keith Olbermann.

It doesn't mean anything.

It doesn't mean a damn thing, except that I found out I could leave high school and they'd let me go.

And I was like, all right.

So then in 10th grade, they said you're done.

I just went to school young when I was a little kid.

And then I left a year early. So I cut two years off.

But was that normal in your family? You have, you have like six siblings, right? Seven kids. So six, yes.
Siblings. And any drunks? Any drunks? My dad.
Yeah, same. My dad covered the whole, he did it for all of us.
He said, but the last thing he said before he died was I drank all the booze.

I'm so sorry, kids.

I drank all the booze. I'm so sorry, kids.
I drank it all. Now there's none left for you.
So wait, so getting back. So in 11th grade, they said you need not go to 12th grade.
All my friends were a year older than me in high school. All my close friends.
And they were all leaving. And I thought, well, I don't want to be here if they're leaving.
So I asked, I went to the office, I said, can I leave? And they looked at my number of credits and they said, yeah, you can. And after, Jason, just so you know, since then I've heard that my high school has raised the, they turned up the credit number so that that's not going to happen so easily.
And all these ninth graders. Sounds like quite a process.
Did you have to go to junior college for a couple of years to get into the kind of university you wanted? No, I went to COD, which is a small community college where Sean grew up, which is only a 20-minute drive from where I lived. Because I could have gone to any college.
No, I mean, I got my, I got my degree from high school and, and I just, I just didn't feel like I'd fit in at all. And then in college, what did you leave with? What did you major in? I went to three different colleges and four different, four colleges.
the fourth one was just a class I took. Anyway, look.
No, I want to know what you graduated with. I sound like a hero and a genius, real Einstein.
He's trying to hide how highbrow the major was. Is it archeological theories? No, no, no, no.
I got a major in broadcasting. Oh.

Broadcasting. And a minor in philosophy.
Because you wanted to be an on-air guy? I wanted to be an intellectual on-air chatty guy. And here we are on the dumbest podcast ever made.
Honestly, Jason, yes. Smash cut to smartless.
And I'm going to lower the bar on this podcast, which is quite something. Good luck.
Well, you've been successfully hiding your sophisticated intellectual high brownness for years. Not to imply that you've been coming across as a dumbass, but you certainly seem very approachable anytime I've ever talked to you.
Wait, wait. So, Bob, let me – so take us back for a second.
So you go to college, you go to four colleges because you had to show everybody up. And then when was the moment? So when did you start getting into, uh, when did you start getting into comedy performing and comedy writing and working with Smigel and Conan and all that? What was that? Honestly, uh, I started writing comedy like diligently, like as part of my daily routine when I was like 10 wow i i just loved it i just love sketch comedy knock knock jokes what's a 10 year old writing sketch uh fake commercials uh parody commercials that would be the first thing were you a big saturday night live fan at that age i always liked saturday night live i was a big monty python fan Yeah same um and i particularly like the saturday night live episodes that steve martin hosted in the early years those were another cut above everything else on the show which was a great show and its first five years a great great show but steve martin hosting was like supercharged but i loved monty Python.
In fact, when I interviewed with Lorne, I.

Lorne Michaels from Saturday Night Live.

Yeah.

When I, when I did get an interview with Lorne to be a writer at SNL, I don't know.

I was sitting out there, you know, he makes you sit.

He makes you wait for hours. Like, like 1 a.m.
appointment, right?

You know, like Janine Garofalo famously waited six hours to go in for her meeting.

Mine was not that bad.

It was like an hour.

Thank you. appointment.
You know, like Janine Garofalo famously waited six hours to go in for her meeting. Mine was not that bad.
It was like an hour. I'm still waiting.
But nothing gets me more nervous than waiting for a meeting. Anyway, sorry, go ahead.
And he asked you, he asked me, what do I, what do I like? What shows do I like? And I'm like, Monty Python. He's like, have you, you know, Do you like what we're doing here and i'm like not so much i thought he wouldn't want to get his ass kissed i really thought not only do i genuinely like monty python more than this show i thought he doesn't want to hear me go oh i wish i could work here you're so great this is the best thing that's That's all he wants to hear, right? That's all he wants to hear.
So I go in and I'm a real standoffish, which I can be, right? Yep. I'm good at it.
Sorry, yes. Yeah.
But I really kind of sort of purposefully was like, I'm not going to kiss this guy's ass. He doesn't want to hear that.
He wants to hear that.

I have some perspective on what they're doing here and comedy. And, and I also knew Lauren

liked Monty Python a lot too. So I was like, look, Monty Python was the best and still to me is the

best, not this show. And you do your little show.
Meanwhile, I'm a waiter at Ed DeBevick.

I'm a fucking waiter and I'm sitting with Lauren Michaels going, nah, it's not so good. It's not so good what you do here.
But you got hired. How did you get that interview, Bob? Where did that come from? Smigel.
Robert Smigel was a really important writer at Saturday Night Live almost from the time he got hired. He was just built to write for that show and he just wrote so many great sketches there's that great star trek trekky sketch with shatner where he says get a life to these people it's such a great moment but so many so many i mean the thing is robert's known for triumph the insult comic dog and the number of wonderful amazing sketches that just made that show relevant and important and worthwhile that he wrote is uh hard to express and and it's not just the recurring ones I mean he wrote um you know Mr.
Short-Term Memory and all these and the Bears guys and all that stuff. But he wrote just the greatest thing.
So he was really important there and Lorne knew that. And Robert and I had been roommates and he had seen me in a show in Chicago and liked it and thought I was really a good performer and funny writer.
And so we had begun writing a sketch show when he got hired at Saturday Night Live. So he sort of was a pipeline for me.
I was writing my material and he would share it with other writers in the office. And I would also work with him on the phone and punch up his sketches for the week.
I actually got a sketch on when I wasn't writing there before I got hired there called Sideshow of the Stars. You remember Circus of the Stars? Yeah, absolutely.
Absolutely. Jason, were you ever asked to do that? I proudly turned it down one year.
Wow. Yeah, I think I was upset with the skill I was offered.
I wanted trapeze, and I think I got dog tamer. It's so great, Bob.
You're, you're one of like a number of guests who have come on and mentioned these like great celebrity shows that were on in the eighties and they always go, Jason, were you on that? There's always a good chance that he was. I know you guys had Paul McCartney on cause I listened to that cause he's so great.
That was such a great episode. Anyone who's listening to this episode and hasn't listened to that, stop right now.
Thank you for the plug. Thank you for the plug of our old episodes.
We appreciate it. Such a great episode.
Jason, were you invited to be on the Wings ABC special? No. The what? Gotta watch.
This is the worst thing McCartney ever did, and I'm a huge fan god see i immediately went to the tv show when the sitcom no uh his band wings they thought i forget the logic of this i was reading about i was reading about mccartney and i thought i read about this thing where he did a one hour special for abc for network prime time and it was just so bad back in the 80s I love watching that yeah with wings oh boy it'll probably it would do great today yeah Bob Odenkirk you're you're in one of the biggest shows in the history of television Breaking Bad I mean yeah I'm a small and Better Call Saul right let's make that connection to how you get to Breaking Bad because I love this Bob I your your trajectory is one of my favorite of all time. And, you know, I'm very fond of you.
And you and I have a long history. Bob and I made two movies together.
Great movies. I'm a big fan of you, Will Arnett.
I think you're one of the great actors. One of the greats.
Still hasn't had a chance to show everything you can do on screen. And I apologize for not helping you do that no bob you did great with those movies those two movies listener as soon as you're done running through the paul mccartney episode you need to watch both let's go to prison and uh brother solomon you did a great job directing those movies despite will arnett being in those you went around will so beautifully i bob so so my experience with bob was i didn't know him bob came on arrested development the first season one of the first episodes jason you remember and uh did those awesome scenes with david where you played the marriage counselor and then bob and david ended up taking over each other's roles and it was fucking insane and i was was so, you know, I was such a huge Mr.

I knew David a little bit, but I was such a huge Mr.

Show fan.

It really, to me, was just the pinnacle of sketch comedy.

And I loved it so much.

Oh God.

So great.

Anybody in comedy that's like, yeah, that is the show.

It's just it for me.

That's so nice.

Thanks, buddy.

And you came, I remember one time we went to,

before we did Let's Go to Prison and we went to a, I forget, we were at somebody's house, like a Christmas party or something. And you ended up talking to me and I was like, man, I can't believe I'm talking to Bob, Bob Odenkirk.
I just, I just, and then you were like, here's, here's where I think that you could, and you like gave me some advice like on, and I really listened to every word and it was great. You'd had a couple.
You'd had a couple because your dad had left a couple beers out before he passed. A couple shots.
They were warm. It was like a treasure hunt.
But it was so awesome. And then, and then not long after that, they, um, let's go to prison came together and I got to go and work with you.
And really you, me and Dax spent so much time in that, first of all, in that prison in Joliet, Illinois. Which is a prison.
My dad drove us by that prison when I was a kid. Keep drinking.
You're going to be in here. No, he said, look over there, boys.
We drove right by that two-lane highway that runs beside the prison. He goes, that's Joliet Correctional Facility.
If you do bad things, you're going to end up in there. And it's a scary prison.
Very frightening. It's fucking scary as shit.
In fact, Melissa McCarthy was on. She grew up nearby there, too.
And she said that when she drove by with her mom in her Catholic school dress, her mom would say, like, don't let them see you. So frightening.
Right. So scary.
So we go and we make that movie. And you had just had you done Mr.
Show to great acclaim. You also were on Larry Sanders, one of the other great influential comedies of all time to great acclaim.
Then you start directing, and then- No, no. Well, listen, let's go to procedure.
I did my best. Both those movies are so damn good.
Yeah. They're so funny.
You never know why shit, and Bob and I, we had a- Yeah, that's really true. I think it's true, Will.
I mean, you don't know how these things are going to come out. I mean, there's so many components and that goes for everything, but certainly a feature film.
And you just got to hope that it all marries up and somehow is as good as what you hoped it would be or maybe better. I've thought about this a lot with Brother Solomon.
I felt a certain amount of guilt because I love Will so much as well. Will Forte.
Will Forte. And he wrote that for us to do.
And we went and did this movie. And I always, as you know, it was one of the funniest scripts I've ever read to date.
Yeah. And just incredible.
And I always felt like, fuck, man, I wish it was better for Will because I loved him so much. Well, I actually had this horrible brain fart that comes to you after you fail miserably, maybe sometimes days later, or in this case, like a year later.
And I thought, I wonder how that script would be if you shot it as a low budget movie on location, not building the sets, because it's already such a heightened, there's such heightened characters. And that was what I think really threw me off.
You know, I, I first got that script. I read it.
They asked me if I wanted to direct it. And I thought it's too much of a meta movie.
It's too, everything's too conceptualized in these people and how they look at life. I don't, it's almost like a cartoon or like, anyway, I said, I just don't know how to make this work.
And I handed it back. And then I got a call like a week later.
Will Arnett wants to be in it. And come on, Forte will be in it.
get together it'll be so much fun and it's such a fun script come on and directing is fun it's really fun yeah and i'm like ah shit yeah okay i'll do it but i just didn't i hadn't figured out look when you it's weird to say this because we just acknowledged that movies are such an uncertain enterprise.

So you can never really know for sure. But I would say that in that case, I didn't have that core principle to build around.
And so I was going off what I read. And when you read it, it can read kind of like a version of Dumb and D which is to say they went with you know these bold broad characters and it would have been neat to take that same sensibility and those characters but land it in a really low budget like low fi uh world it might have worked i think it might have worked great and, and Forte could have done it.
Same cast. Yeah, I think that you're probably right, and I think that you and Will and I should get together and remake it.
It would be the fucking hilarious thing to do. It would be the funniest thing to do if we did it the way we want to.
But I will say this. A real testament to Bob was years later, I think we all felt a little shitty about it because it didn't turn turn out the way we wanted to.
And I ran into Bob and Bob went out of his way to come over and say, Hey man, I'm really sorry. He, you said that I felt like I let you down and I kind of said the same thing.
And we kind of, not that we needed to make, make up, but we did. And I thought it really, I don't know, man, you don't get a lot of that in, in, in, in this thing that we all do.
And you were, I'm always surprised when I go into people's offices and they have movies, movie posters for things that were just terrible. You're like, you don't be proud of that.
Well, because it's so hard to get stuff made. People are so excited to actually got something made.
But I just, I always, I wanted to say to you that I've always really appreciated that when you did that, it really meant a lot to me. I think that you're a really fucking cool and big and cool person.
So just, that's that. And we can move on.
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Our show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Hey guys, everybody should have a support system, right? Who's your support system? My support system, as you well know, talk about all the time, is Scotty.
And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason. Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it.
And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist. And I've been going to therapy for a long time and it's always great.
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Wait, I got to tell my Sean Hayes story. Here we go.
This is a great one. Now, Sean, have I ever told you this one? I don't know.
Have I ever told you that I was invited to do a part on Will and Grace? Okay. You don't remember this because it only lasted one morning.
Did you do a table read? I did not do the table read. Okay.
Okay. So tell me if I got this right.
So I, I had little kids at home. Um, were they yours? And, uh, uh, I was, I was writing a movie with David Cross and all my friends, Mr.
Show movie. And I was having a great time, but I was also exhausted, you know, when you have little babies, run, Ronnie, run.
Yeah, it was run around Iran sketch movie. We were writing a bunch of attempts.
And, uh, so I was

really. movie and I was having a great time, but I was also exhausted, you know, when you have little babies, run, run, run, run, run, sketch movie.
We were writing a bunch of attempts. And, uh, so I was really enjoying that, but also exhausted all the time, exhausted little baby at home, first kid.
And, uh, so they said, yeah, they want you to do will and grace. And it's great, you know, great show and okay, cool.
And I get up, I do in my new normal morning. I'm taking my son.
We would go on a spider walk in the morning where he'd sit in my arm, the crook of my arm, and we'd walk around the house and look for spider webs. And he'd go, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit, dit, when he saw a spider web.
And we'd just walk around the house every morning. I do that with Will sometimes.
He doesn't go dit, dit, dit. Yeah.
I'm so surprised you can carry me.

And then I'm halfway through my little spider walk.

And I think, I think I have to be on Will and Grace.

Like right now.

Oh, shit.

Oh, my God.

You mean you just didn't show up?

No.

I finished the walk quickly.

Finished the walk.

I grabbed clothes.

I was wearing my pajamas. Got in car drove to the studio changed in the bathroom parked my car changed in the bathroom not hadn't shaved hadn't showered ran in late you're describing jason like to a t did the reading like a reading and then went to do the thing and i was so not there i was so not so it was like a table or like or like no no like the morning read you know i guess like you read it we read it in a group and then we immediately went to the set to try to you know put it on i do remember that i do remember i was terrible and i'm thinking i'm terrible and i don't know i forgot This is like 20 years ago.
Yes, yes. My 22-year-old son, who was on my arm, just walked through this room.
Spider check. Looking for spiders? Still looking for spiders.
He is. He's like, I got one.
He's an arachneologist. That's crazy.
Well, I'm sorry that it didn't work out. That afternoon, I'm at the writer's office.
My agent calls. I'm sitting with David Cross and Scott Aukerman and all these guys.
And I pick it up and they go, hey, Bob, we got to talk to you. And I go, what? They're letting me go.
And he goes, well, it's about Will and Grace. I go, they don't want me.
And he goes, they didn't feel like it worked out. I go, okay.
You're like, I didn't either. Gotta go.
No, well, gosh, I'm sorry that happened. No, don't be sorry.
It was my fault completely. I just didn't prioritize acting at the time.
I really... I don't think it adds up, but there's a connection.
Sean, remember that story you were talking about the guy who showed you, the guy you had fired off Will & Grace just to prove that you had the power to fire somebody? Didn't you have a story about that? I said it was about 20 years ago. Yeah, that's right.
That's right. Let's move on.
You know, I really just didn't prioritize acting at all. Acting was something that I like.
I did a little of it in college. I did a play when I first moved to Chicago called Line by Israel Horowitz, kind of a famous play because Pacino, I guess, did it for a long time.
And it ran for like 15 years. Al Pacino, actor from The Godfather.
Yeah, that's right. And it just wasn't something, you know, I was so thankful I could work as a writer.
You stopped, you wanted to write more and then you directed these movies. You made Let's Go to Prison, we made Brother Solomon and you were talking at that time that this is what you wanted to do you wanted to focus more on directing and writing i love directing yeah but then your life takes a change and all of a sudden acting becomes not just part of it becomes the main focus and the last yes 10 12 years you have become an incredibly celebrated.
A good enough actor.

No, fuck that, man. Now, are you finding that a lot of opportunity is coming your way maybe through like sort of like a sexy indifference? Or are you really pointing towards acting and not really looking at writing and directing as much? Oh, I'm writing a lot.
Yeah. I'm writing a lot, but not directing.
You know what? Listen, when I walked away from, actually, it was a small indie movie I made called Melvin Goes to Dinner that in a way was the most successful film I made because it made people happy. It played very well at some film festivals and won the audience award at South by Southwest.
And that was a great screening, a great experience for me. But, you know, I walked away from those movies, Will, and I thought the first job of a director is to pick a story that you really, really want to tell, that you have a strong sense of how it should be told.
Because you take the hit when it doesn't work. I mean, you feel it.
You fuck that up. You are the core reason why that didn't work.
So I thought, okay, your first job is picking a story that you just have to tell and that you know you may be wrong, but you have a strong sense of how it should be told. And I would say with Melvin Goes to Dinner,

it was a play that I saw and I thought,

wow, this is a fun play.

The dialogue is what matters.

And it's kind of really great,

got this great energy to it.

And we'll keep this cast together

and we'll shoot it with five cameras

and everyone can keep their kind of very lively interactions

and energy can be sustained and brought to the screen this way.

And that was true.

And then Let's Go to Prison had this gritty, tough underbelly to it.

And I thought, we'll shoot it like a 70s B movie.

We'll do these snap zooms and we'll get some 16 millimeter film.

And I had some strong visual sense of what it should be. And that was pretty good.
It has some integrity to it. And then Brother Solomon, I was just, it was like, I was a jobber.
I was just trying to bring that script alive, you know? And later when I saw Last Man on Earth, Forte's series. I thought those guys really figured out

a kind of a way to do Forte's writing

that I've enjoyed very much.

I love that show.

Wait, can I go back for a second?

Melvin goes to dinner.

Are you saying you use the cast from the play in the movie?

Yes.

Okay.

Cast from the play.

God bless you because I love you for that.

I think that is amazing because you go see these plays,

I won't name which ones,

that turn into these huge movies that you're like,

Well, they just nailed it on stage. Why wouldn't you just use those actors? Probably talking myself out of a future job, but why don't you just use those actors? They're so fantastic.
So good on you. I think that's amazing.
Well, thanks for saying that. You know, speaking of a great actor who was in a play and is now getting some attention, a guy I knew in Chicago named Paul Racey is in Sound of Metal.
Oh, great. And he's so great.
Is that the sequel to the Julie Andrews? It is. Jason, it is.
Wow, that sounds interesting. Hey, when you are not putting 14-hour days under your belt on Better Call Saul,

do you like to completely do nothing in the entertainment industry?

And if so, what is that?

No, I never do nothing.

I'm always writing.

David Cross and I and my brother Bill are writing a kind of a big sprawling comic documentary epic right now that we hope somebody will want. And I'm working on so many projects, um, a drama about Oxycontin and, uh, a comedy.
I wrote a animated show with Dino Samatopoulos where the devil moves into a town in Indianapolis, near Indianapolis. And, uh, I just, I, I'm always writing.
I have a memoir coming out next year, uh, too. And I wrote a book with my daughter, you know, during this COVID time, no weird, creepy hobbies aside from a spider hunting.
Uh, no, I work out a lot now because I made this action movie called Nobody. Dude.
I saw the trailer. It looks amazing.
Bob, I wanted to ask you about that. It's so fucking great.
What's it called again? It's called Nobody. Is that two words? It looks great.
It's one word. Well, I was just thinking because he worked out, you know, and nobody.
Oh, nobody. Thanks.
Sure. No problem, dude.
You know, puns. Listen, you start the audience with a laugh.
They're coming back. Yeah.
They're coming back along with parades. Consider me ready.
Jason's memoir is coming out next year, too. It's called My Life in Puns.
So, Bob, the fucking trailer for this movie, all of a sudden, like, you literally, you have a line where you're on a bus and you're faced up against these tough guys. You go, I'm going to fuck you up.
I'm like, fuck, yes. And Will, that was, you know, that was a monologue.
That was like a page and a half long monologue that Derek Colstead wrote, who wrote the John Wick films. And he's a great writer.
And he writes these mythic worlds and bad guys

that's come out of the shadows.

And they're parts of big organizations

that I can't tell you what they mean yet,

but you'll find out.

And it's just, he's so great, this guy.

I love hanging out with him.

I love hearing his stories.

But he had written this long monologue.

And it was like, the universe has a hell of a way of paying back what's owed and all this stuff. And I'm putting it off.
We're working with the story. And he was really great talking to me about it because it kind of sprang from my own idea, the whole movie, because I had a couple home break-ins here in L.A.
that left me with a lot of conflicted feelings. What kind of neighborhood are you in, Bob? Well, it's obviously not.
You got a deal on the house? I don't have that Netflix money. It sounds like you got a real deal on this place.
Is it near a prison? It comes with meth addicts. So nobody came out of your own sort of feeling about a guy who's going to fight back a little bit? It came out of a lot of ideas and thoughts I had, but one of them was the genuine feeling of like, we had had this, we'd had two break-ins, but one was particularly traumatic for my family and I didn't do anything.
Like recent or? It would have been 10 years ago, that one. And you were home when we were all home oh my god and uh it was very traumatic oh thank god you're okay so i tried to keep things uh cool you know uh i'm not that i have any weapons i mean like any dad i grabbed the baseball bat and i haven't swung a bat since i was you know 14 it leaves you feeling like, gosh, I mean, what else could I have done and what should I have done and how should I be prepared? And, and, but if I had done something, what would have happened then, you know? And you really, I mean, it is smart to keep things cool and back off and get the hell out of there.
Everyone's okay. Yeah.
Uh, there is a residual. Sure.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Okay, I'm sorry about that. For sure.
So all that sits with you. And so I, you know, you just can't help but feel those feelings and ask those questions.
And it stays with you, obviously. You probably think about it at least a few times a week.
Oh, yeah. Yeah, I'm sure.
And you think about guns, which I'm like definitely for stronger gun laws, but you think about what value are they? I mean, how would you have one safely in your home and then be able to use it? All all these complicated issues uh but most of all there's that personal frustration and anger and i thought i'd like to work that out and see if there was a place for that in a story and of course there is in action movies that's exactly what it's built out they're built out of and so i proposed this i actually thought i'd get laughed out of the room, you know, but people were like, no, no. Actually, it also came from my brother-in-law.
He was in China and he took a picture of his TV screen, which had an ad for Better Call Saul. And I thought, shit, if they're watching me in China and I know they show plays in Russia and Italy and all around the world, what could I make that would play around the world? Well, an action movie plays because we know what everybody wants on screen without understanding the language.
And so there were so many things that drove me to ask, what about an action movie? I'm willing to do the training. And people said, yeah, that's a, yeah, that that could work so did you have to train because there's a lot of physical activity like like you do a lot of i mean listen jason yeah i do all my own fighting in this movie good lord wow i i trained for two years it's a lot it's a lot i pull muscles getting out of bed did you did you know i mean the first goal of the training was that i don't get hurt when I do the fight.
Was that successful? It was pretty successful. I didn't, what happens is you train, uh, sort of just the basics for a year and a half while this whole project was being put together, you know, takes years always.
Uh, so I had a long time, but I was training for a long time and And then you put the pieces up in the gym and you choreograph them and you learn the choreography over and over. But then when you get on set, things change.
And, of course, the set is maybe dimension-wise it can be a little different than what you trained in. And, of course, now everything is real.
The walls are walls. They're not cardboard boxes.

And so you end up hitting, I only got hurt a little by hitting my fists on metal bars and stuff that were in that bus fight.

The bus fight is really something.

The bus fight is insane.

By the way, I don't want to interrupt.

I don't know if you ever heard the story about Jason cut his finger taking his golf clubs

out of his Tesla, but yeah, it was, it was. We thought about having a sequence where I take golf clubs out of a Tesla and we talked about we couldn't get the insurance.
Right, right. Just unbelievable.
Rehearsal for that. You also probably heard the story about Jason had to bring a icy hot patch for my tender back the other day over to my house.
But you know, Jason, I love your attitude about it because, uh, another actor whose name I won't mention, I met him at a, at a, one of these things we used to do before a pandemic, uh, destroyed social interaction in the world. And I go, yeah, I'm training.
I'm training. I've been training for a year and a half.
And he looks at me and and he goes why they have stuntmen who will do that for you he was mystified and i think you are too you're like don't you know you're in show business bob you don't actually have to do anything i just just say the lines i just know at my age 52 you pull a little thing in your back or something. Okay, yeah.
Just little tweaks. They last weeks.
You're right. You're in good shape.
I give you shit, but you take care of yourself. The thing is, if you've never wrecked your knees or your back, then you can get in shape enough to do these things.
I had knee surgery four years ago, and I tweaked my back, but I'm never giving up. I don't give't give a shit i mean this fucking chassis was made to fucking run yeah look at you but wait so so bob how fucking crazy is that and you had you had like a real bona fide uh uh from top to bottom action people involved in this from the writing to the other producers i know dave leach a little bit who was involved with the film too yeah david leach's a fucking cool guy.
And we trained at 8711, his gym. And Daniel Bernhardt, the best stunt actor in the world.
Daniel Bernhardt trained me for that whole time. And I don't know why he did, but he was willing to do it.
Bob, you know, Will mentioned this at the top of the interview that, you know, you just work constantly. You wear so many hats.
Where does that come from in the drive? And I, I asked that a lot of our guests, but I think it's, um, fascinating because you look at all the stuff that you accomplished. It's like, wow, how, and you have this family.
It's like, how do you fit it all in? Let me finish my thought from earlier, which was about directing. Stop cutting him off, Sean.
I'm sorry. Which was just this, you know, I'm not sure I'll ever find a story that I think I like and can commit to enough to want to direct again.
As much as I love directing, I think directing is probably the most rewarding thing any of us can do if we get to do it. You get to use all your talents as a storyteller, and it's just the best.
It's really rewarding. But if I'm too much of a bird brain hopping from a stick to stick, uh, and I can't focus long enough or really care deeply enough about a story, I probably shouldn't direct.
And I, so far I haven't done it and I'm not really chasing it. It'll find you.
It'll find you. You can't rule it out, Bob.
But the thing is, I don't really have hobbies. I read books.
And you love work. I like what I do.
I like doing what I do. I like thinking about stories and how to make them work.
You know, the thing is, I don't want to be a dilettante. I don't want to be George Plimpton, you know, which is one of the reasons why, you know, I did train for this movie and I wanted to do my own fighting.
And thanks to the team at 8711 and the people who got me there, I was able to do that.

And you can see that I do it.

And I did it, I think, well enough.

People will decide.

They may tell me I'm wrong. What do you think about like when you see Tom Cruise hanging from a, an airplane, like I look at that and go, God, I wish I had the sack to do that.
I mean, was that something that you would do? Well, that's different from doing the fighting. That's just, um, taking a big risk.
Right. But I mean, as far as the, you know, I mean, as far as the efforts made for authenticity and doing your own stuff.
I mean, I gotta say, you know, I'll take that guy on. Oh, yeah, there we go.
You heard it here first, guys. It's fucking on.
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You can buy a jar of Jif to save the celery. Bob, I want to go back and say, because, you know, it's the thing we kind of glossed over, but of course you have, and you just mentioned you're writing with, you're working with him again with your brother as well, but you have a long, long friendship and working relationship with somebody who i love very much i know jason loves very much and sean i think you know and i'm a huge fan yeah and he's just a guy that big part of of my life uh big part of my professional life certainly and just an awesome guy david cross can you talk a little bit about your relationship with david and what a fucking huge impact you guys had on comedy? Well, that's nice.
Thanks. I hope we, uh, helped some people and made a lot of people laugh, but I mean, people always give Mr.
Show credit for this, like the way it was constructed. And I'm like, yeah, but it was really funny.
That's what was good about it. Who gives a shit? But I think that that's sort of a nod to to sort of people appreciating that you guys you guys did something that was complicated and you didn't need to right like you made a bunch of people laugh on a on on one frequency but then you guys kept writing all these other frequencies that were much more challenging tough to see just the thread right just that that basic concept of the thread between each guy each guy might go right over a lot of people's heads that are fully satisfied with that show.
You know, I think it's, it's really, uh, it's admirable. You know, this is a weird thing.
And that show was the best thing I could do with my life as far as I'm concerned. And that, that goes for looking back on it.
And I'm thankful for Breaking bad and better called Saul and all this stuff. But that show, as far as I'm concerned.
And that goes for looking back on it. And I'm thankful for Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and all this stuff.
But that show, as far as I'm concerned, defines me and my sensibility. And I don't know if I could do anything more me than that show in this lifetime.
So it's a weird thing to have done that. Feel good about it.
Feel like you did enough of it, you know, like that it was substantial and then just be like, Oh, I guess whatever I do next, I don't know, whatever's most interesting, but that's, it's never going to be as fully me as that. And, and how fortunate that, that the first big high profile thing that you do as a performer is accurately portraying your brand of comedy.
In other words, you didn't have to do a series of jobs afterwards to sort of reset a more accurate description or representation of what you would like to do and how you would like to be identified in the comedy world. Like it was right on brand with the kind of funny you'd like to give.
And then you just kind of took that and ran with it. Yes.
Yeah. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. A lot of people don't get that.
Yeah. A lot of people never get it.
Not once. And so it's funny because I'm writing this memoir and it's mostly about Mr.
Show. Yeah.
Oh, cool. Yeah.
Both you and David held on to that really difficult kind of subversive, you know, street cred, punk rock type of comedy that. And in the same way that Monty Python kind of did, it's interesting that that's one of your inspirations because you, I don't know if you think, but just, sorry, Jason finished your thought a little bit.
It's like, you know, I grew up in the same way. I revered Monty Python.
I watched every single episode, and it was amazing. But that you created this thing called Mr.
Show that now has the kind of same kind of impact on the comedy world that that did for that generation. I really think that you've accomplished that.
You and David. Yeah, that's nice to hear.
I've had people say similar things, but obviously Python influenced such a huge generation and also was able to get more absurdist than we got. We just aren't, we don't think that way.
But I love that show and I even love its absurdisms. But although the season without Cleese is my least favorite season.
Where did Benny Hill sit for you in the English sort of absurdist comedy world? Behind the toilet. Yeah.
No, I did laugh at Benny Hill a bit, but I actually was. Benny Hill, it's not the most egregious example of a certain kind of comedy that we all shared in the 70s that really irked me on a deep level.
It really unsettled me. I think as a kid growing up in a house with an alcoholic father, and it took a while for us to find out what was going on you know I was probably about 12 or 13 when I understood what the thing was that made our house weird and wrong and fucked up and kind of really deeply unsettling like I think this thing's gonna break apart tomorrow morning at any moment the same feeling and that comedy of the 70s and my dad loved hee-haw which is so crazy because later my manager was bernie brillstein who helped make hee-haw which i hated so much i hated it so much anyway this comedy of the 70s i think everyone was so don't know, I'll psychoanalyze the whole nation.

You know, Vietnam was so brutal and left so many raw nerves, right? And so this comedy came in of, oh, God, John Denver, George Burns, both wonderful people, I'm sure. And I love, I got to meet George Burns.
I loved meeting him. but there was this grotesque, super sweet, you know, fake, phony, everything's okay.
We're just joking around up here. I really, that I just hated so much.
And of course, SNL was a breath of fresh air. It was dangerous.
It was a little more confrontational. It didn't apologize.
I mean, that whole thing with the Dean Martin Rose, which I laughed at, absolutely. But also there was just this side to that whole thing that was like crude comment, kind of almost maybe slightly racist comment.
And then like, we're all just friends. We love each other.
It's all, life is sweet. And it just felt awful to me.
Sort of lowest common denominator humor, if you will. People were trying to come together, I think in a really strange and artificial way.
They were trying to get the nation back together or something or could soothe their nerves after this horrific 10 years of Vietnam and and bloodshed so this hippie-ish like it was trying to bring the hippie culture into mainstream culture remember the pinto car that had Levi's seats yeah oh wow that's right remember that yeah remember that's incredible and love that show Sarah Pur seats. Yeah.
Oh, wow. That's right.
Remember that? Yeah. Remember, that's incredible.
I love that show. Sarah Purcell.
John Davidson and Fran Tarkin. What was the one Fred Willard was on? Real People.
Real People. Real People.
You know, it was like this attempt by the whole country to like calm down. It's okay.
We're just quirky. We're not dangerous.
We don't have strong feelings. We're just quirky.
We're just a bunch of quirky people and quirky is okay. And part of me, you know, I mean, a big part of me as a kid is like, it's no, we're not just quirky people.
We're, we're different. And there's something really bad happened.
Somebody say it, you know? And yeah, yeah. I see that.
I see the connection you're making. And I think that that probably informed a lot of like kind of what you did and what you guys ended up doing on on Mr.
Show and sort of. I think the best comedy does that.
You know, Eric, Eric Idle in his book talks about seeing the fringe, the beyond the fringe guys, you know, Peter Cook and Dudley Moore and I forget the other two, also great writers. And he said, seeing it as like in college, this was comedy with anger in it.
And I agree. I agree that comedy should be a little bit unsettling, really great comedy.
It should be a little serious about itself. It's got to be, there has to be, like like you just said there's an element of danger and there needs to be an element of surprise any anybody who's ever for me personally made me laugh they always say something that's really they surprise you in a way that you in just by definition that you weren't expecting um and i remember i remember mckay adam mckay once saying describing somebody who i won't mention who's's very famous and saying, yeah, he's not.
I was like, that guy bugs me. And he says, yeah, because he's got zero surprise to him.
And I was like, yes, that's exactly it. And by the way, Street Cred, we used to call when we, the first season of Unarrested, anytime we would like go to do something, and you know, David would go, Cross would go like, oh man, that's lame, blah, blah, blah.
And Jason and I would go, hey,

street cred, what should we do that's cool? We'd always say that and be like, fuck you guys.

He kept us on our toes so well. Arrested Development is a great example of a show that,

you know, I consider that a height of comedy and it doesn't apologize or hold your hand. I mean,

you really have to pay attention. Oh, and even for us making it, I mean, we constantly had to ask Mitch Hurwitz for, you know, comedic interpretation on all these incredibly smart things he was writing.
I mean, everything existed on multiple levels that you need 14 layers of parentheticals to try to understand. It was very tough for me.
I still don't get a lot of it. Yeah.
I love that. So if you were asking about David, David and I are a really great marriage of failure and a lot of success falling short, but we entertain each other.
We make each other laugh and we kind of compensate for each other. And the weird thing is in different ways.
I mean, he probably is funnier than me, but there are times when I'm bringing the jokes and he's bringing the structure and we just really hand it off back and forth between inspiration and jokes and creativity and structure and sort of focus and grounding the piece. And we just keep balancing that out between ourselves.
And it's hard to, I don't, I actually don't like thinking about it too much, which is a good sign of like something that's kind of magical. You don't want to think about it.
It's like, if you're married for a long time, you just go, I just. Yeah, I was just going to say that.
You can make the analogy to a good marriage where you identify, well, we don't need two Bob Odenkirks. We got one great one.
And so you don't want to marry another Bob. You want to marry somebody who's a proper counterbalance or pleasant opposite to who you are.
And you kind of give them, going back to Will's point, her lane and you stay in your lane. David can make certain people laugh and you can make other people laugh.
And that little combo, that cocktail, just works so beautifully. And also that you don't need to break it down.
You don't need to understand why it works. It just doesn't.
You can kind of move on. David makes me laugh.
Same. I think more than any other person uh i mean zach galfanakis i think is super funny all the time incredible i think tim heidecker is one of the funniest people i know but david's just like roll just so funny all the time he likes pranking more than i do i'm not big into pranking people he that's a big part of what david loves it's a surprise is to do something that sets up the audience or whatever that audience is i mean if you're in an elevator with david he'll start saying something that will disturb the people around you and that's a it's a private and i put the word in quotes joke because how is it funny they're just they didn't do anything they didn't ask for a show but he loves that stuff even in this thing we're talking about right now he keeps talking about sort of misleads and and it's like all right well i mean we'll do a few of them.
But he loves that shit. He just wants, well, you got to have David on.
I know. We can't make his deal.
We just can't make his deal. Believe me.
You guys, I honestly say it was nice of you to want me to do this because you are all more famous than I am. And you are.
We like to talk to people that we're huge, huge fans of and try to make us a little bit smarter we love you and we I've always looked up to you and thanks for coming and doing this man you're just such a huge talent and I'm so excited for you that you have so many different chapters and you keep fucking doing whatever you want to do I think it's I think it's so rad fucking please direct another movie yes please

please yeah that's nice of you thanks thanks for coming on the show thank you bob for doing this thanks for having me guys we love you bye see you too uh you know what i didn't mention to to bob but i i wanted to when i first got my uh production office for my production company i'm one of three actors in town with a production company. And he worked one level below me, on the floor below me.
And he just walked up the stairs one day, he knocked on the door, he goes, hey, I'm doing this animated series. Can you come down and do a voice really quick? Oh, I thought he was going to ask you to just keep it down.
Because he's recording up there. And the clogs that you were wearing at work

were not working well for him.

Right.

No, he just said, can you come down and do a voice?

It'd be so fun.

I was like, yeah.

I was like, Bob Odenkirk just asked me to do a voice.

It was so awesome.

He was so kind.

And I just, I don't remember the name of the show.

It was like the character's names

were in the title of the show,

but I don't remember the name of the show,

but it was great.

It was Will and Grace animated. Do you want us to, yeah, are we supposed to guess? Yeah, guess.
Go ahead. It'd be a fun game.
Will, how did you make Bob Odenkirk's deal on that? So I just, yeah, I mean, as you know. You guys have to do another movie together.
Things happen in threes. You got two.
That's a great idea to remake Brothers. We should do it, right? We should call Forte.
That's so rad. At one point, we made so little money the opening weekend.
I think it was like $545,000 opening weekend. It was a complete bust.
It was on like eight screens or something. And I went to Tom Werner, the producer, and I said, what if we remade it and the budget was what it made opening weekend? And he's like, great, go for it.
I'll sign that check today. And that was like, you know, 10 years ago.
But I have thought like it'd be really funny to get. That script was so good.
It was me and Forte and Kristen Wiig and Shai McBride. And there are lots of people that have haters in it.
So many people are in it. And it was a really fun – the script is brilliant.
Forte's writing is just brilliant. And the movie is pretty good.
But it could have been, as Bob said, we wanted it to be something else and it wasn't. And it was just one of those things.
I think he was far too self-deprecating to say that it was all his fault or that any failure of any movie is a director's fault. There's so many other things, not to bore the audience to death, but, you know, the marketing and the date, you know, the studio, the other films that are out that, you know, is there a storm on the East coast? I mean, it's so many things.
You guys did great jobs with both those movies. Yeah, I think, but, you know, it truly was, it was one of those things where I think a lot of people had, a lot of us involved in it had regret about the way it turned out because the script was so good.
And Bob kind of out of the blue coming up to me and sort of making an amends, if you will, almost really was, I think it took a lot, you know, showed he's a really, he's a big person and was able to do that with no ego and just kind of go, hey, for my part, I'm sorry. And I was like, yep, same here.
And it was, I thought it was really awesome and a very cool, again, you don't get a lot that obviously in this business, you know, a lot of people are happy to spread the blame elsewhere. Yeah, he seems like such a decent guy.
He is. He's a really decent guy.
So anyway, I'm so excited to have him on and have always been and remain such a huge fan. And then to go from, to start as a writer, you know, he and Conan wrote together and with Smigel.
And, you know, to write on SNL, to write on Conan, to then writing on the Ben Siller show, to Mr. Show, to Larry Sanders, direct a bunch, and then do Breaking Bad and Better Call Saul and now has this action movie.
It's like... Yeah, it's a great career.
There's no, there are no limits. You know, I joked with you, you know, about his lane.
I mean, here's a guy who's like, there is, I have no lane. My lane is whatever the fuck I want, in the moment and for me that's inspiring yeah do what do what takes you in the moment you know and um even if you want to look for spiders great fill the morning be late for work i know phil he spent the whole morning looking for spiders and then forgot to kind of show up a little bit.
Forgot to show up at Will and Grace. And then the phone rings.
I love just the phone rings and he goes, it's Will and Grace, isn't it? Yeah. Well, you know, if you've been fired before, you know that feeling.
I've always known when I'm about to get fired and I get a call from Principato and he'd go, well, you were right.

No, yeah.

They're letting me go, right?

Oh, it's happened to me a couple times.

Sean, have you been fired?

Bye.

Oh, you didn't want to answer that?

I'm sorry.

Sorry.

One more time.

What were you saying?

Bye.

He's trying to buy out of here.

I'll buy. I didn't commit to it, but buy.
Smart. Less.
Smart. Less.
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