"W. Kamau Bell"

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They'll probably cut that, right? Yeah, you don't have to say intro. You just say, you just start with what the show's about.
Okay, but I thought it would be if I go intro try and then nobody says intro try. Nobody says intro.

They just say that they just talk.

Nobody says intro.

That's a good point.

That's a good point.

So just talk.

All right.

Just talk, take one.

You don't.

I thought you said...

Welcome to SmartLess.

SmartLess.

SmartLess.

SmartL Less. Smart.

Less.

I find it really fascinating you sleep in separate bedrooms.

Yeah.

Because what are you doing?

You're just sleeping anyway.

So, otherwise, I'm a super light sleeper and I wake up at anything.

So, that's why.

I'm a light sleeper, too.

Well, why don't you either connect some earmuffs to your bite plate or. My bite plate.
My bite plate. Or get an operation for your beloved.
Hang on. I got to write this down, yeah.
Or strap a CPAP onto his helmet and get on with it. We tried all of it.
His snoring is so bad. It's just, yeah, he's just a snorer.
I can't deal with it. So does he sleep with a CPAP machine? He tried it.
It's like suffocating. Wait, does Amanda or Alessandra snore? No.
No. Do you guys? I have, but I don't really.
If I sleep on my back yeah yeah so you snore on my back all right wait wait a second there's something you're very defensive use when you sleep on your back you do or you do sleep on your back therefore you snore i no longer sleep on my back because i'm tired of taking uh fire on my ribs from my uh my sleeping partner know, that's like a kick or a punch,

and that means flip over and shut your mouth.

So I have...

How many times have you heard that sentence, Will?

I was just going to say why you're awake or why you're asleep.

Flip over, shut your mouth, and don't look at me.

Is that, that's the complete sentence you used to?

That's how him and Alessandra met.

That's how we, yeah.

I think actually that's a website that you guys met on. That's how we met.
Yeah, it was called Just Peg Me. Okay, well, I don't want to keep our guests waiting too much longer.
We have a very, very special soul on today. He's a stand-up comedian, and he has hosted the popular television series United Shades of America since 2016.
I love him.

He makes me laugh. He makes me think.

Two things that Will tries really hard

at, but please welcome

W. Kamau Bell.
Hello

there. Kamau.

No kidding.

I want to know, first

of all, we just call you

Kamau because nobody says W,

right? No, people who don't know me, but we all know each other. We're such good friends.
I heard about the pegging and everything. So we're all cool.
Justpeg me.com. We get into docking on the second half of the show.
Stay tuned. What is W? What is the W? Walter is my dad's first name, too.
So it's just. Oh, that's a lovely name.
Not really, but thanks. I mean i mean there's never been a like maybe walt frazier that was the last cool walter in culture so but wally there's some cool wallies right wally fister first of all there's wally like as in wally there's that that's a cool wally jesus hey can that be our new sign off and uh our buddy wally fister is a cool cinematographer slash director.
He's a cool guy. Wow, we're already the cinematographers.
We're already. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Oh, listen, we're all about the arts. Will presented me with my last Emmy.
Will did? I did present you. This is the second time that this has happened to me.
I did present you with an Emmy. So you guys, first of all, I just want to point out, you guys are all Emmy winners.
I'm the only non-Emmy winner here. Yeah.
Yeah. So congrats.
I bet you've got an Annie. Do you have an Annie? I do.
I have a few. Do you have a Cleo? No, I'm a guy.
Okay. No, no, Will.
Sorry. You must have cut out there for a second.
Yeah. A Cleo.
Cleo. No.
No i don't that's okay yeah all right so come out you've done you know reading about you and and and knowing you the very little bit that i do from sundance we hung out for a while and really connected at least i thought so and uh and just adore you and adore your brain and adore your ambition to get the message out to people like us who aren't that bright. And I love your show, how it just kind of, the United Shades of America, how it just kind of displays for us the questions and the answers in such a palatable way.
And it's so easily digestible and something everybody can understand. So how did you think of the show? And why did you think of the show? You know, I always wanted to do a show like this, but there was no way to there's no path to these shows.
Back in the day, I would just sit on my couch watching Bourdain being like, how do you get one of those? Yeah, that's cool. Travel around and talking to people.
I can do that. And really, I had a show before this show called Totally Bias that was my first big break on FX.
And then when that show was canceled, it just happened to be at the same time that CNN was looking to break in another show like Bourdain. So I was in the position of them sort of pitching me on the idea, which was really great.
And also in a position where Bourdain had so kicked the door wide open, there was nothing I was going to do that was going to be like bigger than him. So I really got a lot of freedom to sort of really make the show in my image, which has been great.
I love that. First of all, what was it that drove you to, because as a standup, you could just be, you know, doing Netflix specials or HBO specials or doing whatever.
And it seems that you've kind of, I mean, sure, we all want that? I wouldn't want to do that. No, I wouldn't want that.
But you know what? They, like, if they came to me and said, hey, we want to give you 20 million to do a stand-up special, I'd say, here's the routing number for my bank. No, pass.
What are you saying? You thought I was going to say pass? But my question, I guess, to you is, Kamau, is you've decided decided you have a obviously sort of built into what you do and your voice is this political bent this activist bent where that's a big part of who you are and what what do you think it was that kind of what was that moment that or was there a seminal moment that drove you that way as opposed to just straight straight up stand up i mean when i when I started doing stand-up, I was just trying to be funny like everybody is trying to be funny. And I really did not have any intention of being some sort of like cultural, social, whatever this voice is.
But I was raised by a black lady with opinions. And so deep inside of me is that if something's wrong, you're supposed to say something.
And so I think as I got older and I had more of a stake in the world, started to pay more attention to the news. And like I said, I literally my mom's, like I used to, I was an only child, so I hang my mom a lot, and she'd be around adults.
And so they would be in, you know, a lot of black folks who were come out of the civil rights movement, who were like, we have jobs now, but we're still pretty pissed about the state of the world. And I just heard these conversations all the time.
And so I think for me, it was just like, in some sense, I didn't really want to be this kind of comedian. I wanted to be a comedian because of Eddie Murphy on Saturday Night Live.
So that was not really like, it wasn't like I came out like, I got to be Gregory. But I think I was attracted to that.
And then as a young comedian, I was introduced to Bill Hicks when Bill Hicks was still like a folktale. He had passed away.
But it was just like somebody like handed me a tape of like, listen to this. like oh that that's that's what I want to do and then you're like Chris Rock is a big influence and I get to be around Dave Chappelle a lot or like like post South Africa and really watch him on stage a lot and just be like you know not that I'm any percentage of any of these comics but really that's the thing I'm attracted to doing is like speaking my mind and taking a stand just I would rather rather be Kevin Hart.
That doesn't seem easy, but it does seem more cost efficient. So how often are you you're traveling around the country? Not not eight weeks a year with eight episodes.
You're doing you're doing probably eight months. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, we we shoot.
I mean, the shows are pretty quickly shot. People don't realize this, but we shoot in like a seven day week.
And but yeah, it takes up most of the year with the editing. And then after that, like whatever time is left over, I still do – because I'm on CNN, instead of doing stand-up gigs, I do lecture tours, which pay better.
So like I do a lot of college colleges and private gigs, like sort of talking about the work. And that was my year up until the coronavirus.
I want to ask you about two – well, many episodes. I mean, we could take the entire time on this podcast episode to talk about even one of your episodes.
But one of the fascinating ones was the first episode, one of the first episodes, you met with a KKK member in Kentucky and Arkansas, I think. Several KKK members.
Yeah, and so, which is, this is fascinating. How does a black man even get get go into that and feel safe and how did that happen what is that phone call like and so the that was the pilot episode and again sort of coming off of like at that point cnn had bourdain uh lisa ling morgan spurlock mike rowe and so i was aware that like if they're going to add a new show i have to do something that none of those shows is going to do and the And the elevator pitch was black guy goes places he shouldn't, was basically the elevator pitch for the show.
So where shouldn't a black guy go? The number one place is a Klan meeting. So yeah, there's, for the pilot, maybe the pilot won't go and I'll have a good story.
But also I have to do something that CNN will be like, well, nobody does this on our networks. So that was my, so once we decided to do the show, that was my pitch.
And they pitched a lot of other things. And I kept being like, what about the Klan? And they're like, fine.
I was like, oh shit. And then it was about like, luckily I didn't have to do this, but producers having to call Klan chapters and be like, hey, can CNN come? Hello? Hello? And then, you know, hey, can CNN come with a black guy? Hello? Hello? What about a black comedian? And then we were left with like four groups who were like, sure, because they wanted to be on TV.
Wow, because they wanted to be on TV. Because they wanted to be on TV because they figured just no publicity is bad publicity.
Yeah. So the Klan thinks every white person really is secretly a fan of the Klan.
Wow. So that like, even the white people who watch CNN are going to be like, I know, like we're going to be watching it like, yeah, these guys have a good point because Because you have to to be that delusional.
Wow. The producer told me he had to pretend like he was down with them to get them to let us come.
Right. No way.
This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires.
She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend Nikki, who stays by her side through it all. FX is Dying for Sex.
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So Kamau, with the guy that you, the Klansman that you interviewed, did he, did he try his best to give you? That's Mr. Klansman to you, sir.
Dr. Reverend, Reverend Dr.
Klansman. Did he do his best to try to convince you that what their thinking is, is not nuts? And if so, what was that sentence like? Well, I think that first of all, I talked to several.
So I went to a cross burning or as they call it, cross lighting. So it was like an actual clan meeting, a clavering, as they say.
And then I talked to a guy named Dr. Thomas Robb, who's from Harris, around Harris in Arkansas, who has like a, I call it a compound.
He says a church, tomato, tomato. And so I talked to several different versions of the Klan.
And there's sort of some basic levels of like, it's sort of related to the Fox News thing, actually, where they're like, well, we all know black people don't know how to police themselves. I mean, we all know that.
I mean, so there's a way they talk to you as if like, these are all facts, right? I mean, we all know that, you know, obviously you'd rather be with your people and I would want to be, and I'd like to be with my people. Obviously, we don't want to have our people mixing.
I was like, well, I'm married to a white lady. Convenient truth.
So there was just a lot of, like, them sort of trying to sort of, like I said, they act as if these things are just common sense. If we could just get past all the rhetoric, we all know these things are true.
And so it was really, and there was some, like, it was right around time ferguson had happened so there was some heat around at that moment they wanted to scare me when i first got there and i just sort of stand back while they were like and just sort of like let them get out the bluster before we could talk and did you get the sense at when you were done talking this person like i would find it impossible for anyone to just having talked to you for five minutes to come away from a conversation with you and not like you and not want to be friends with you did you get the sense at the end that this guy would be like uh you know i we we can be friends i mean i can still have my thoughts but we can still be like did you get the sense that maybe you had turned him a little bit there was multiple levels because again it was like dr thomas robb is a professional klansman he's not going to get turned because this is how he pays his rent basically he's not he's not invested but when i went to the clan meeting like the the cross burning i was there for several hours like three or four hours because we got there during daylight and we had to wait for it to be pitch black for them to burn the cross and so i was talking to them about the process in a way that you would like think of like a pbs show like like do you burn the cross where do you get the wood from what do you what do you use to light the cross and so at some point it becomes dudes talking about like home projects wow yeah you you rope-a-dope them into a conversation and pretty soon they realize oh my gosh we're just we're having fun uh with a guy that we're supposed to hate I guess right question mark and then some of them wouldn't talk to me at all like they would just stay clear because i think they were afraid of catching black so they were like really not even interested in talking so wait so when you're so when you're sitting there and talking to them about like hey who's who's holding the lighter and all that kind of bullshit are they wearing their fucking robes and their stupid hats and everything well yeah we asked i mean we did ask them, you know, you got to come wearing the dress whites, as we say, for the purposes of CNN. And so it was August and they talked about how hot it was under the robes.
And I said, maybe you should have thought of that. Yeah, switch the big meeting to December or something.
Yeah. So, yeah, they talked about how hot it is under the robes.
But there must have been like a certain level of how foolish, on top of everything else, they must have seemed in these stupid-ass robes and their fucking hats and all the hoods and spouting and talking about putting the lumber together for a fucking cross burning. And how – do you think there was ever a moment like where – did you ever have a ever remember you're like looking at them and you got a sense that they did they ever feel with shame of like yeah i look like a fucking fool i am a fucking fool of a human being no i think i don't think that happens in the moment i think that happens years later if you look back but no i think they were like we all had a cool jacket in high school right that made you feel like you were a million dollars and now you'd look back and be like you

see an old picture you're like oh i can't believe i ever wore that right um have you noticed that

in traveling around the country has it been a distractingly clear to you i mean certain parts

of the country i would imagine it would be more more apparent have you noticed that come on i mean

i think that for me that racism is like wine and there's just different versions of it like some of

It's been a little like garlic flavor to it. But so I say that like, I don't think like living in, I live in Oakland, California, I live in Berkeley, San Francisco.
It's not that there's not racism here. It's just the kind that I think is the kind I can get along with the best.
Got it. But my dad lives in Mobile, Alabama and I used to go there every summer.
And there are things about Mobile, Alabama that I'm like, it's at least friendlier here. Like, you know, like there's this, there's that even with the dealing with racism, there are things I like better about Mobile, Alabama than I like about the Bay Area.
It's just, this is the kind of racism I can live with. But I'll tell you this.
The only time I've been kicked out of a place because I was black was in Chicago and Berkeley. Wow.
What's that look like? What do you mean you got kicked out? So when I was a teenager, I lived in Chicago, and I was in a record store waiting for a friend of mine, and I was in there for like, you know, an hour, which is not a long time to be in a record store unless you're 15 and black and i was starting to walk out of the record store and the security guard came behind me and grabbed me by the collar and was like i need to search you down you stole something i hadn't stole anything i don't even need to say that but and i and he basically didn't find anything on me he found my inhaler he's like do you have asthma you have asthma? Which is like, what a strange question to ask right now, sir. Who did you steal that asthma from? Exactly.
The environment. The toxic environment I was raised in.
And he basically like literally bum rushed me and threw me out onto the street. So I've been in Alabama a lot.
That's never happened. And then when I was, this happened 2015.
So I was like an adult with two kids in Berkeley, California. And my wife, who was white, as I mentioned, was at a coffee shop with our 13 week old baby and some of her friends.
And I went to go say hello to her and talk to her. And the coffee shop knocked, somebody in the coffee shop knocked on the window and said, get out of here.
Because they thought I was like bothering these four white ladies in the middle of their lives. No fucking unbelievable so for me it's like you know i think there's a level of like the south has a level of like historical violence that we associate with the south that we think is always happening which definitely happens but it's not always happening but outside of the south there's there's racism that's like like people in the south and they're being racist they actually know they're being racist a lot of times outside the south people do things that are racist and they're like, no, it was just because you were wearing a hat.
It had nothing to do with you being black. Let me ask you about that incident in Berkeley where you go up and you talk to your wife and somebody knocks in the window.
What ends up happening in that? What's your reaction? Do you freak out? Do you tell them to go fuck themselves? Is there a confrontation? Here's the funny part. So this is like, and you all have been in this position, I'm somewhat like this, where somebody like is like- Oh, because none of that was funny? Yeah.
Yeah. We're finally at the funny part, guys.
Welcome to the funny part. So when the person knocked on the cafe window in the Bay Area, I'm a little bit extra famous out here.
So I looked up like, yeah, you have seen me on that TV show. Get out.
Wait a minute. No, I wasn't in that movie.
So like there was this, and I was like, yeah, yeah, it's me. Oh, so it was like a real like turn upside down.
It took me a second to even get my bearings back. And then my wife saw my and because we've been together a long time she was like oh something racist happened let me see what's going on around here yeah and then the woman from the coffee shop came out to really give me the like move along from these nice white ladies and and that 180 must have made it extra difficult in that moment in particular the sort of the fall from yeah because we've all done that same thing, which is like, yeah, hey, can I get a picture? Of course, of course, thanks.
Just take it of me and my, oh, you want me to take a picture? Oh, sorry. And it's that same.
But then magnify it by a million, right? And so like you're doing from that to that, that must have been, you know, by the way, speaking of pulling your pants down, I was in a parking lot once with Bateman and we were coming out the old jerry's deli in the marina and we're about to go to work and i was standing there wearing sweatpants and he's like so i guess i'll see i go yeah and he just pantsed me out of the blue underpants and sweats and it was i had something in my hand and my pants were in my hand i was like fuck you're lucky i didn't push you over like i used to finish the job in grade school. We weren't 18.
We were 35 at the time. Well, you know, you wear sweatpants.
That's what you're going to get. Did you learn? I want to ask you about another episode that you did on United Shades of America.
And I'm sorry to bring this guy up again. Maybe you like to talk about him.
Maybe you don't. But I'm always fascinated with people who hate, like, the KKK and Richard Spencer.
Yes. And your encounter with Richard Spencer, who is, you know, the self-proclaimed white supremacist and credited with the term alt-right.
Isn't that correct? Yeah. And so, again, with the KKK, Richard Spencer, who's a very scary person, how did you land that interview? And, like, you know, why did he agree to that? I mean, he loves TV.
And I think he actually, you know, I think the funny thing about him is that he's not as scary as he used to be because I think a lot of programs like mine sort of like, here, talk, say more. And the more he said, the more, even his supporters were like, yikes.
So I think that like, that was a time when I think, I got a lot of criticism for that interview because people said I gave him a platform or I, you know, there was all that talk about don't normalize people. And I'm like, this is America.
This dude, this all these ideas are real and he's going to talk about it. I think we got him because weirdly we got there before the point he got big.
And I think that we sort of like when we had him agree to do it, he was like this sort of unknown guy. By the time we filmed it, he had become more known.
And by the time he aired, he aired he was like a national figure but people didn't realize when i talked to him he hadn't been punched in the face yet so people like why didn't you punch him in the face well first of all not really my style but also that's not how time works so like it just right but yeah i mean i got a lot of heat from the left for that interview because i was talking to this guy who was such a demagogue and it's like but i sort of i feel like that's part of my job and I'm not, I don't feel like I'm giving him a platform because I, I was there to talk with him too. I didn't go, Richard, you take this segment.
I'm gonna go chill out. You know, I was there to talk with him.
Well, it's also, it's a great venue that you've created to make us aware of these people and these problems and these social issues. You know, I don't think there's anything wrong with that.
Can I shift gears for a second? So how did you, what was your start in stand-up? How did that happen? I mean, you know, signed up at a coffee shop, paid 99 cents to perform. You know, like, I was really, I was a kid who was a comedy nerd before that was a thing.
So I just really loved, I was like a, you know, my friends would be like, did you hear the new Public Enemy song? I was like, did you see the new Young Comedian special with Jan Karam and Dennis Miller?

Like, I was just like a real lover of stand-up comedy from back in the day.

Like, I remember seeing Seinfeld on The Tonight Show

with Johnny Carson and like all these things

where it's like, I just loved it, you know?

So it just, it was like, but I also,

when I started doing it,

I was also not funny for a very long time.

So it took me a long time to do that thing that they call finding your voice. It took me a long time to figure out.
And I think because the things I wanted to do, I was afraid to do. So it took me a long time to actually figure out how I wanted to do it.
I love it. It's one of the scariest jobs.
I mean, I've never done stand-up. And it's just, you know, the scariest thing to me seems to be getting out there.
It's so, because it's just you and your thoughts and like, this is what I think is funny. Let's hope you do too.
So here we, you know. Yeah.
I was terrible at it. You never did it well.
Did you do it, Jason? No, ever. No, I haven't.
I would be petrified for sure. Because I would imagine that the sweet spot comes when you can kind of match your mood or your attitude with your humor as well.

In other words, if all you have are the jokes, if the jokes aren't great, you're not going to get laughs.

But if you can marry some sort of attitude or vibe or tone, then the audience is perhaps more sort of preconditioned to like that joke. I mean, I bet it's a marriage between the two.
That was always the knock on Dane Cook, right? They said that he didn't have like lots of jokes. I'm not really that familiar, but like, but he had a lot of attitude that lent itself.
Right. So people were kind of enjoying his energy and the jokes, but it was a kind of a combination of the two, as opposed to somebody who just goes out there and just says, you know, so a dentist and a rabbi walk into it.
Like it's, you are, you're, you're fully reliant on the content of the joke and there's no personality with it. I failed miserably at it.
I was, I was horrible at it. I, my opening joke, whenever I would go out is, uh, it's so bad.
Nobody laughed. It was, you know, they say doing ballet is one of the most difficult things you could do.
So I say, don't do it. Boy, yeah.
So come out. It was funny because it was so like, it's like a New Yorker cartoon.
Yeah, it is. I told you it was bad.
I was horrible at it. Jason, whatever happened with the dentist and the rabbi, though? So, yeah, so let me finish.
So the dentist goes in there, and the rabbi is— Yeah, guys, come on. Pay attention.
This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate.

Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis,

decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires.

She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend Nikki,

who stays by her side through it all. FX's Dying for sex.
All episodes streaming April 4th on Hulu. Last year, Americans ate 32 billion chicken wings.
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Experience the excitement of every single match live exclusively on Paramount Plus.

Visit ParamountPlus.com slash LiveSports to get started. I want to give us all whiplash here, and I want to go back to something because I really want to know your opinion on this.
Come out. How old are your kids? Nine, five and a half, and two.
Okay. How old do you think it is? Well, when do you think kids should learn about black history? I've got a 13 year old and an eight and an eight year old, two girls.
And what is the perfect age where a kid is smart enough to hear the lesson and say, Jesus, I'm glad we're past the teeth of that. And we still have a lot of work to root out the rest of the racism.
But do you know what I mean? Can you pick a question out of that? So here's the thing with my, with our oldest daughter, who was four, when the cafe thing happened, when that happened, we realized, me and my wife realized that we had talked to our daughter about race, which is a different conversation than racism. So the race conversation is like, Madam CJ Walker was the first woman to be a self-made millionaire in this country and she made hair products.
Or Michael Jordan is a great basketball player. Like that's the race conversation about great things that people of this race had done.
But the racism conversation we hadn't had. And at some point I realized as a black guy who's raising a black girl, who's also mixed race because her mom is half white, that if at some point she learns that outside the house, then I've been negligent.
If the first time my kid hears the word slavery is from a teacher who I don't know necessarily is going to talk about it in the right way, to me, it feels like not teaching your kid to go to the bathroom when they need to go to the bathroom. It's a thing that you need to teach as a parent in the household.
I think parents of color, black parents, we really understand that and over-index on that. And I think white parents, a lot of times, like you said, are sort of a little bit like, I don't want them to take the wrong idea.
But we also forget that kids have a really good moral compass, generally. So all the conversations about racism, they understand what's fair and what's not fair.
I think the things adults are afraid of is not being able to explain why slavery happened to a kid. But for me, the best thing about that I've done with my kid is like, I have no idea.
And to me, owning the fact that letting my kid know that like this is horrible, she'd be like, but why? Why would they do that? I said, I don't think that they just didn't think black people really were the same as white people. But why? There's a level of why that all parents get to with lots of things like why is the sky blue? With sky is blue we feel comfortable going i don't know it's just blue i think it's fine with the racism discussion also get to the point of going i really can't explain it to you but this is what happened and i for me it's important that my kids have a sense of of that really that same system of fairness and justice they apply to like splitting a cookie in half they apply that to racism i read a lot about world war ii and european history and i was reading this book and my kids were asking about world war ii and i had to explain to them my oldest son was probably seven and a half at the time he's now 11 and explained to him about world war ii and the holocaust and he was like what is it and i was like holy shit i can't believe i'm at this moment where i've got to explain to him what what the Holocaust is.
And I, and I was like, well, it's a truth. It's a reality.
I can try to serve it to him in a way that's not too frightening to a seven-year-old, but also that's not, not hiding what happened. I said, you know, and you explained to him that 6 million Jews and then an additional 20 million people were murdered.
And that's a big fucking scary notion. And I just remember him thinking like that same thing you were saying of like, why, why did they do that? Yeah.
Why did they hate Jewish people? Like, imagine if you were Jewish, like how you would explain that to Archie and then Archie thinks, wait, people hated us at some point. And like, that's just a, you want to make sure that they're old enough to be able to say, oh, well, that's just like, those people were fucking idiots and I'll never be anything like that and work as hard as I can their whole life to keep that away.
You know, there's, there's a, there is an, an, an age, I think where kids are too young to put that in its right size, you know? But I think we make those decisions all the time about our kids. Like what level of the where do babies come from conversation do you get into with them?

At some point, kids want to know.

And you can go the stork if you want to.

But then at some point, if you go too far down the stork road, then you got to like, man, now they're 17.

Right.

Where did all these grandkids come from?

Yeah, exactly.

So I feel like, you know, I mean, in the same way that like I didn't grow up believing in Santa Claus because my mom was like, no, no, I'm a single parent. I bought all this shit, you know, but my wife grew up believing in Santa Claus and she wanted our kids to believe in Santa Claus.
And so it's like, I guess we're going to believe in Santa Claus. We all the time with our kids, we create these ways or we let them believe in things that aren't real.
We create all these fairy tales. My kid thinks unicorns are real.
And I'm like, okay, for now, we'll do that. So I think we're always making those kinds of decisions.
And for me as a black parent, I feel like I can't hide all that other stuff because again, I don't want that stuff to come in in a way that I can't control. And I think we all have a, and we all know our kids and we all know there's a level at which your kid will go, okay, that's enough for today.
I want to go and you don't go no i'm not done talking about the transatlantic slave trade i think you just let your kid go do other things right so is this why you're a part of race forward which is kind of like a think tank yeah i to me it's important to now that i've been identified as a public figure and entertainer who does this work and the thing that i can do for people in places like Race Forward or like the ACLU is go, here's how the people are receiving the message. Is there more information I can give them that you're, a lot of times these places don't know how to get the information of the people in the way the people can take.
And so as an entertainer, I can be like, oh, I can take this big, complicated idea you have and break it into bite-sized chunks. So yeah.
Yeah. Which is what your show is kind of like.
Exactly. Yeah.
That's what I'm hoping to do. Sean, were you really confused when they were saying defund the police? Were you like, why? Stuart Copeland needs money too.
He's part of the police. Because I see your shirt there.
Were you feeling like the police wasn't going to... Well, this is a band, a group called...
Because you know it's different, right? They weren't saying take money away from the band, the police, right? So wait, let me're saying they weren't saying the sting like sting they have to take all his bass guitars away they weren't going to do that so okay i get it come out what part of the show do you love the most from like a technical and like do you see this as uh as a jumping off point to become more of an actor more of a director more of a writer, more of a producer, all of the above? What ideally would be your next venture in entertainment? Finally, we can talk about my ideas for the next season of Ozark. Okay, here's what we do.
Finally, finally. Yeah, I don't really see myself as an actor.
I see myself as somebody who's now it's my job to produce and bring other people into shows like this that wouldn't normally have access to host a show like this. I think the reason why that like, the thing about me that connects me to Bourdain is neither one of us was like a journalist who got a TV show.
We were both like people who were like in our lives doing our thing who then ended up with these shows. And I think the more people bring in from outside of hollywood to do these things that the shows become more interesting so i really do want to produce and bring in more diverse voices to shows like this yeah i love it that's my goal and i've started and i directed a documentary about chris rock a year or so ago and so i do also want to produce a director i can't you know i really don't want to have to be relying on this space forever it's the pandemic i've been hard on so.
So nonfiction stuff is where you'd love to stay. And socially relevant issues.
Yeah, I mean, I think for me, it's always socially relevant, even if it's not stated. Like the Chris Rock documentary I did, Chris is socially relevant, but it was also just me as a comedy nerd wanting to talk about his special bringing the pain.
So I don't think it always has to be like, you know, it's not always medicine. I I think that like, it's something like, these are things I happen to be interested in.
I think it is great when you can bring in sort of bigger themes into all these things, because I think all everything we do has a bigger theme in it. And I think it's great to sort of be able to bring those themes out.
But no, I also, you know, there are things I want to do that are fun too. Yeah.
It's not, it's not always this didactic. Do you agree with this idea that maybe it would be better or it would expand and make it more enjoyable in season four of Ozark if Marty died? I don't think that.
No one's saying that. No one's saying that.
Jason, hang on. Stop cutting people.
Go ahead. I'm listening.
I'm listening. If a new guy came into town, I got it.
Yeah, like a new guy, like a little bit taller, a little more handsome. Wait.
Wait a second. That's impossible.
He's got kind of like a shorter haircut. Maybe he's from north of the border.
Some pipes. It is our last season.
I might die. It's the last season.
I mean, you never know. Don't let that happen.
Kill all my dreams. I mean, you know, just to be clear, with Ozark, there are bigger themes in that show other than just like this.

And just to be 100% transparent, huge fan of Ozark.

And there are bigger themes in that show than just, yeah,

to all three of you.

You're doing a great job.

Sure, yeah, no, thanks.

Yeah, no, thanks.

But there are, it's also like an exciting show to watch,

but there are bigger themes in that show that come through.

So I don't think the things have to be always so, you could do a documentary about that place, but it's also, they can come through in a fictional way. Well, listen, let me just say from everybody at Jason's Production Company, Prayhans Productions, that we're so, we're so grateful, Prayhans Productions.
Well, come out. I want to thank you for being here today.

Thank you for taking the time.

And I really truly mean I'm a huge fan.

Thank you for teaching me shit that I would have not had any other access to and really enlightening me and millions of other people.

And so I appreciate you and I appreciate what you do.

Thank you.

Thank you, my friend.

Good to see you.

Thank you for joining us, pal. Thank you, Kamau.
Wow. Thanks, man.
Thanks for having me. See you later.
All right. Thanks.
Bye. So I've always loved him because, well, I met him in Sundance, like, I don't know, a couple of years ago.
And that's when I got to learn about his show and him and a fascinating background, fascinating guy, super smart, super on it. Like, and I love those kinds of shows where they do all the homework for you it's like a documentary every episode and you're like you just get like the the nuts and bolts of what you need to know and what you need to learn and i i just love them i think that's what they're saying about our show you know that we're really educating people yeah doubt i don't think that i don't think there's a single person saying that.
Really? No. I don't think that they're...
I love that, Sean, I love that you admit... This is my vision of you.
It's just like you and Scott, you have a nice meal, right? Probably tuna salad on white bread with potato chips. Wait a minute.
That's exactly right. I know.
And his bite plate soaking in a cup. I think I should start every episode with an ailment.
Keep going. And then you just sit on the couch and you're like, and then you turn on the TV and then there's a switch for your brain and you just turn it off.
Right. And it's everything.
You wear a bib because of the drool. Yeah.
And you're like, blow my brain with new stuff. You pretty much got me nailed.
That's me to a T. Right.
Here's what I picture you, Will. I picture you every night after your arugula salad sitting in front of the television,

but there's a mirror on top of it

so you can look at yourself watching the TV.

Is that right?

I got rid of the television altogether.

It's just a mirror now.

I was like, what are we doing?

Why are we playing this foolish game?

This is all I really want to watch.

Cut to the goddamn chase.

And then it's just a staring contest but but uh what a what a what a cool what a what a cool dude and what a funny guy and um what great guest sean thanks yeah i love him you guys you guys keep nailing it with your guests yeah well what's going on man i mean can you don't make us replace you because if you don't start bringing the heat with your guests. Yeah, Will, what's going on, man? I mean, can you, don't make us replace you.
Because if you don't start bringing the heat with your guests, we guys, we're not rolling anymore, right? Will, let me, listen. Yeah, we are inches away.
There are lists being made. Because if we are this close, we've had three open call auditions for your spot.
We haven't found anybody yet, but we are real close. Fucking what? Yeah.
No way. What if I came in and I auditioned in a disguise? You mean this isn't it? Like Bobby Valentine.
With your Rolodex. And these are the people I can bring.
No, your guests are incredible. I'm so flattered and stunned by the people that we three have gotten so far.
Right. It's very humbling.
Yeah.

Yeah.

It has been,

this has been an amazing thing

to be part of such a huge,

long rollout of a Ozark press tour.

We're trying to hide it,

but it's,

it's come out,

came,

it was a little,

little,

not subtle there on that last.

Kind of avoidable.

Whoever it is,

Ted,

I'm going to call Sarandos

and I'm calling MRC

and I'm like, where's my paycheck? Ted Sarandos runs Netflix thank you oh for fuck Sean cheese head ticker one of these days I'm gonna fucking surprise guests who we know that you'll love. If you want to be the first to hear new episodes ad-free in a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to start your free trial today.
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