"David Chang"

This message is brought to you by Apple Card.

Apple Card is a no-fee credit card that gives you daily cash back every day.

That's 3% back at Apple and 2% back on every purchase made with Apple Card using Apple Pay.

Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app on your iPhone today.

Subject to credit approval, variable APRs for Apple Card range from 18.24% to 28.49% based on creditworthiness.

Rates as of January 1st, 2025.

Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA Salt Lake City Branch. Terms and more at AppleCard.com.
This episode is supported by FX's Dying for Sex, starring Michelle Williams and Jenny Slate. Inspired by a true story, this series follows Molly, who after receiving a terminal cancer diagnosis, decides to leave her husband and explore the full breadth of her sexual desires.
She gets the courage and support to go on this sex quest from her best friend, Nikki, who stays by her side through it all. FX is Dying for Sex, all episodes streaming April 4th on Hulu.
Hey guys, it's spring cleaning time. Let's start with your mop because that overgrown winter hair isn't doing you any favors.
At Sport Clips Haircuts, they've got pro stylists who know men's hair, TVs playing sports 24 seven and a place built for guys to get a great cut without the hassle. No appointments, no stress, just a fresh cut and a place made for you.
So shake off the winter scruff and step into spring looking fresh because they got you covered. Sport Clips, it's a game changer.
Hey there, Will Arnett here from SmartList. It's the podcast where Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes and I interview somebody.
Two of us don't know who that person is

because one of us has brought on a surprise guest.

That's the whole conceit.

I wish I could describe it better, but I'm not that smart.

So it's Smartless, and it's starting now.

Smart.

Less.

Smart.

Less. smart hey are we rolling are we gonna are we doing this is we're we're already podcasting that's the great thing about podcasting sometimes you're just doing it and you don't even know what about my tasty flairlair I've got on my...
Oh yeah, I saw that. J.J.
Abrams movie.

Did you have J.J. Abrams over? Yeah.

What happened?

Hey, did you guys see that NXIVM thing?

That documentary called The Vow?

You know, NXIVM's a little

bit more for...

Yeah, like if you have heartburn. Heartburn or

loose stools. There's an entire

documentary about... Loose stools and heartburn? Yeah.
Boy, was I happy when my doctor said NXIVM. Like that kind of thing.
It was that cult thing. I know what you mean.
I did watch the first episode and I loved it. I can't believe I haven't been back yet.
It's so wild. Blame it on the Dodgers.
I got to say, and I mean this, and Sean, you know how much I love you and I've loved you for a long time. But.
I feel like you could get caught up in a cult. Who says I'm not? That's true.
I feel like you could just drift away. By the way, this guy said, okay, so wait, I gotta tell you.
So the guy, the crazy sexual predator guy who runs the whole thing. Sounds like a great guy.
Yeah, he sounds amazing. Those poor women, but anyway.
It's so fucked up, man. It's really fucked up.
But it's really fascinating that people can get sucked into that cult like that. I'm going to be honest with you.
I saw that thing. You and I, you asked me about that the other day.
We were FaceTiming on a personal FaceTime and I... Did I ask you about the vow? About, about, yeah.
Yeah. And I thought, I don't, it just seems too dark for me.
I mean, as much as I like to, I can't take that kind of stuff. I'm like, I can't take it.
Yeah, I guess the thing that attracts me about those things is like I'm fascinated by how somebody can believe that. Like what point did you go? Yeah, that makes sense to me.
We're getting very close to a religious conversation, which I don't think would end well. No.
And also, we have a really, really great guest today that I'm excited to... Pope, John, Paul...
No? No. It's...
Could you imagine if we got him? Will's just booking. How great would it be if one of us was like, the Pope is that would never and he still has the hat on and everything here comes Will's crappy intro let's hear it you know what first of all speaking of crappy intros I've heard I don't even try I listen to the podcast you don't try at all I don't want to insult the guest by trying to craft some big flowery thing trying to put any work into it no you don't want to insult them with that yeah this isn't for work this is just chat and giggle chat and giggle yeah well i'm i'm gonna say this our special guest today is a really really formidable person uh he has accomplished so much in what i think is a pretty small amount of time.
This is a guy who really started at sort of square one, worked in a bunch of restaurants, then started his own restaurant, then started multiple restaurants and businesses, then started a very popular TV show on PBS called Mind of a Chef and then did his documentary series about food called Ugly Delicious. I've seen Ugly Delicious.
He started Momofuku. Oh, my gosh.
All those restaurants. He started in New York and then Sydney and Toronto and Tokyo and Los Angeles and everywhere.
God, he sounds loaded. I just want to get him in here so we can start talking to him.
Our guest today. Unless he's left.
Is Mr. David Chang.
Oh, yeah. Holy smokes.
David Chang, look at him go. I'd love it if you were just chewing when we saw you.
What a pleasure. I'm so psyched you're here.
David, what an honor. Now, first of all, David, why? Listen, it's that voice.
His voice is just so soothing. I'll do anything.
Thank you. Thank you, David.
Welcome to Mama Fuku. You know what I mean? I'm just saying, like, when you walk in.
That's a new thing at the hostess table? I'm just saying when you walk in, if you walked in and you heard that, and you thought, like, huh. Activated when the door opens.
A server will be by to take your order soon.

Relax.

Okay.

I'd be like, I'm relaxed.

And a little horny.

Maybe a little bit.

I'd be like, is this a fuck restaurant?

What's going on?

David Chang, I've actually seen Ugly Delicious.

It's really great.

It's a great show and you're amazing on it.

I'm a big fan.

Thank you.

I need to go eat at your restaurant in Los Angeles.

Now, Major- I've actually seen Ugly Delicious. It's really great.
It's a great show, and you're amazing on it. I'm a big fan.

Thank you.

I need to go eat at your restaurant in Los Angeles.

Now, Major Domo, it's the one that's not called Momofuku.

Yeah, that's right.

Major Domo.

And the first time I went to Momofuku in New York,

I went with our friend David Cross years ago.

You probably know David.

Yeah, longtime supporter.

I do.

We did a show together, Will. Yeah, sorry.
I'm talking to David, Jason. That was a cheap, easy joke.
And he introduced me to the wonderful world of your culinary delights. But you've done so much.
It is hard to try to intro you because you are... And you're super young, right? Aren't you? Yeah, that's what I mean.
Look at the guy. I'm 43 this summer.
I don't feel young. Jesus, that is old.
That is old. Yeah, but all the...
No, no, no, no. Don't make him feel bad.
Only a 51-year-old can say that. Wait, when you open restaurant after restaurant, aren't you just like...
Isn't it just like a big, huge roll of the dice? Are you just like... Yes, it is.
Every time I finish opening a restaurant, I tell myself, I'm never going to do that again. Ever.
Yeah. I'm sure.
Ever. But I would assume, obviously, the more you do, the longer you're around, the more your clientele becomes expanded and the openings become less risky, right? And your brand is bigger.
Yes and no. I mean, in some ways, they don't want us to do anything new, but they also want us to do something new.
So you got to find that fine line of pushing the envelope, but keeping it comfortable for everybody. Like a rock band.
So you started, you worked at, I think I've got this right. You worked in a bunch of restaurants and you worked for Tom Glickio for a while at his restaurant.
Top Chef. Yeah, of top chef fame.
And you kind of bounced around. You worked at a bunch of different places.
What was that moment you decided, I'm going to open my own shop? Because to Sean's point, it's a big risk. It takes a lot of guts.
What were those conversations like to go, I'm going to do this? Yeah. Well, truthfully, the main reason I decided to open up my own restaurant is I was never going to have my own restaurant if I did it in a traditional way.

Right.

At all.

There was just no way.

What would the traditional way be? So, you know, I opened up in 2004 and I was still working for Danielle Bouloud at Cafe Bouloud in 2003.

And, you know, I had cooked professionally for about four plus years. Not enough.
But I had, you know, traveled around, seen a lot of different things, worked abroad. And if you wanted to open up your own restaurant back then, which wasn't that long ago, you had to be a patron to the restaurant and know the chef and say, hey, I'm moving back to Minnesota.
I want to open up a restaurant. Do you have a chef that you could like give me? And that's how like most people, most chefs got their own restaurants as a, you know, through someone they knew.
No one was like, I'm going to open up my own restaurant. That almost never happened.
And I'm a relatively competitive person. I looked at the kitchen where I was at.
I said, oh, I was probably 13 out of, you know, 13 in the progression of maybe I'll get my own kitchen. And I was like, I can't do this.
I got to find a different way. And one of the things that I learned when I was living in Japan was, you know, food didn't have to be super expensive to be good.
And I just want to do something different. So I decided not to open up a French fancy restaurant and do something different.
And that's why. If I was better, truthfully, I probably would never have opened up Momofuku.
But you've talked about it before. You were kind of over fancy restaurants.
You kind of had enough. Is that true? Yeah.
I mean, I worked at most— If you ask a lot of people back then, they worked at fancy restaurants not because they cared about the food per se or the clientele. It was the only place you could work with the best ingredients and learn the best techniques.
Right. So in some ways, you know, I got tired.
I remember coming back and it was a lot of culture shock for me moving back to America and then being on the Upper East Side and having to, you know, chop a salad even more and everything sauce on the side and custom making everything for all of these. So Jason ate there? Yeah.
Jason Bateman is well-known in the culinary world as being one of the most difficult people to cook for. I have the waiter pull up a chair.
I'm glad that you touched on this and jason is definitely uh uh somebody who's guilty of this but as a canadian the first time i i didn't experience that kind of like asking for special stuff until i came to this country first of all i never do that what i'm one of my meg ryan poor meg ryan now she's in the same category as you. I mean Sally.
Harry met Sally. Isn't there a famous sort of this? I'll have what she's having.
No, different scene. No, yeah, she was very picky, yeah.
But I love that. I love what she's having.
That's a great scene too. Wait, what happens in that scene? I don't know the reference.
But that idea of people going like, yes. And I remember being with somebody the being with somebody the first time they like sent food back.
I was so embarrassed. I was like, Jesus Christ.
And it wasn't because like there was something wrong with it. It was like it just wasn't the way they wanted it.
Yeah. What I will do is if food shows up not hot, I – for me, it feels like it doesn't taste as flavorful.
And so I will... Even sushi? Yeah.
I will ask the waiter to see if they can throw it under the light longer or whatever, however, whatever happens. Because that's how they cook it.
They just cook it with light. Because I figured that the chef wants the food to be bursting with flavor and the colder it gets, the more muted the flavor gets.
Or am I crazy? No, no, you're absolutely right. Hot food's supposed to be served hot, cold food is supposed to be served cold.
And if you go to a restaurant and you're served something that is cold and it should be hot, you have every right to send it back. Because I figure it's, it's, it's probably the, the, either the waiter was too busy or some of the, the chef didn't want it at that temperature.
So yeah, anyway. But the thing is, it's called a pass in most restaurants when the food hits sort of the organization before it goes right out to the dining room.
So much shit can go wrong by that time. Yeah, yeah.
Of course, let me ask you this because you brought this up. I've always wanted to know and this feel like, is this a myth? You know, we've all done it before.
Somebody's like rude to the waiter or whatever. And you go and you go like oh you're guaranteed or they send something back yeah you're guaranteed for the whole the whole kitchen's gonna spit in your soup now or whatever right without divulging any names have you ever seen that no no no no i mean listen it's hilarious you know i watched that movie waiting and i think a lot of people that are cooks watch that movie because it's like something we wish we could do, but that's never anything anyone's ever seen.

Great.

So we can lay that to rest now.

I mean, do people shit talk customers behind their back all the time?

Yeah.

Wait, what?

Yeah.

I mean.

No, but I mean, if somebody sends.

Jason Bateman is out there.

If somebody sends a plate back to be reheated, is that a common thing or should I be as mortified as I feel when I do do it? Which is not often. The only time it's a problem is when the customer's wrong, right? Right.
Like it happens all the time. Like for example, oh, I think this bottle of wine is corked and it's not corked, right? Or this steak should be rare and it's not.
The customer's actually wrong, right? And I think for years, even if the customer is wrong, the restaurant just sort of had to eat shit. And I sort of decided I was no longer going to do that.
I would tell the customer, no, you're wrong. Nice.
Nice. I feel like I took us off on a tangent here and making David defend the restaurant industry and the people who are screaming like, fucking Jason Bateman's kale apparently isn't hot enough.
You took David and me down in your line of questioning. But I do want to get back to something you said.
Oh good, there's more from Will. No, I just wanted to say, well, he's my guest and I want to hog this time with David.
I'm so excited. You've only got three questions.
Don't wear them all out. Let me say this.
You talked about being competitive and when you started started the restaurant, you were, not a lot of people know this, I don't think that you were a golf prodigy as a kid. Yeah, it's weird to think about it that way.
I mean, because obviously I never panned out as a golfer, but my dad was way ahead of his time. Now if you go to the golf course or golf tournaments, you're going to see tons of Asian kids with their parents yelling at them.
My dad was the OG Asian dad yelling at his son to be better at golf. Wow.
No way. You know, Will just got me re-addicted to golf, and I played every day for the last month.
He really did. This whole interview is now going to go to golf.
Listen. It was so uncool to play golf back then, mind you.
Like, no one. It's not that cool now either.

It's not that cool now.

No.

But I burned out.

I burned out really young.

I mean, I won a bunch of tournaments,

and there was this kid named Tiger Woods and Phil Nicholson.

They were a little bit better than everybody else, too.

No way.

Really?

So you were here in Los Angeles?

No, I grew up in Northern Virginia,

but I remember trying to qualify for this tournament

called the Big Eye in Houston.

And I never qualified.

But for three years, there was this kid that was a year or two older than me that was on the cover of the pamphlet.

And I was like, how the fuck am I ever going to beat this guy?

He's so much better than everybody back then.

That was Tiger?

Yeah.

Wow.

And so were you a plus or were you a scratch?

I was, depending on the golf course, my home golf club, I was a scratch.

Good God.

And what about now?

If I took you out right now? Oh, no, no, no.

Last time I played i so the last time i played a round of golf seriously was 2003 and i threw my golf clubs into the ocean at old head in ireland and the 18th hole is this majestic thing overlooking the ocean and then and like i literally was thinking maybe I could practice and, and try for the tour or something like that. How old were you? I don't know.
I was probably like 25, 26, because my dad has always said, oh, you have all these natural gifts, but I never had the head game because I just was a basket case. And, you know, the thing about Ireland is they don't have a lot of practice ranges.
So you just like go there cold. Takes you four holes to figure out your your swing and i literally had like a quadruple bogey birdie and it was the most schizophrenic round i've ever played that sounds like my game right yeah except for the birdies so i said fuck this i'm never gonna play this ever again i chucked my clubs in the ocean my dad yelled at me and i was like dad i played for those golf clubs so you not played since? I played once last summer.
And that was, I probably won't play again. What'd you shoot? Something in the 90s? I shot like, I think like an 88.
Well, David, that's totally fine for a guy who's actually got a job. And who never plays? I'm just, golf does not bring me any joy whatsoever.

I just,

I have to.

Wow.

I mean,

I'm that kind of personality,

addictive personality, where if I had the chance,

even though I don't like playing the game,

I would play and practice all day

to be that asshole

that wins the club championship every year.

Yeah.

And nobody likes that guy.

Right.

No,

I'm dangerously close to getting there.

Why did you stick with it for so long? Just because you had a for it no i was scared of my dad father right scared of my dad yeah okay okay but a good motivator he put in some good work habits um with you right and some uh thirst for excellence and and winning and all that stuff and you you pointed it towards uh restaurants well mean, it sort of became pathological, right? Of like the need to work harder, be better, practice more. Yeah.
But that's why I brought it up. You can see it in your work and your drive.
Like you have, you're very focused, even though you do a lot of, your focus requires you to look in a lot of directions, you still harness a lot of stuff at the same time, which is not easy to do. You know, it's a lot of restaurants, a lot of businesses.
It takes a lot of determination and a lot of, you know, discipline, frankly. I've been lucky and I've been surrounded by and this is not me being modest.
I just have really great people. I got way too much credit for all the things that happened.
And I don't even cook in the restaurants really anymore. So, you know, I just, I don't know.
And when I look back at everything that's happened, it's hard for me to believe that we did all that, you know? Yeah. Guys, we all need to drink water every day.
I mean, we have to drink water to stay alive, right? So why should it be boring? Like, I like sparkling water because it didn't have all the sugar and the added, you know, chemicals and everything like that that soda has. So sparkling water gives you the bite that you're looking for.
But with Waterloo sparkling water, you get a little flavor in it, like a fruit flavor, and it's so delicious. With authentic flavors and lively carbonation, Waterloo Sparkling Water brings full flavor artistry.
What's flavor artistry, you ask? It's all about custom-crafting, multi-sensorial flavor experiences of aroma, taste, and mouthfeel that make you say, Wow! Waterloo Waters are crafted, not formulated or off the shelf, just purified sparkling water and non-GMO project verified natural flavors with zero calories, sugar, or sweeteners. I love it because guess what? I've been open about this.
I've gotten kidney stones, so I have to stay hydrated all the time. I constantly drink water all day long.
and it does get boring until Waterloo.

The flavors are so delicious.

The black cherry is delicious. I had it.
It's so yummy, and it feels so good going down. Give Waterloo Sparkling Water a try.
Look for Waterloo Sparkling Water next time you shop. Learn more about the flavors from Waterloo Sparkling Water at drinkwaterloo.com.
Solace Health is reimagining concierge healthcare for your entire family. From mystery sniffles to late night stitches, they provide peace of mind when you need it most with 24-7 care that handles medical concerns with immediacy, expertise, and comfort.
Solace is like a personal medical assistant that works with your primary care provider and connects you with any specialist within days. They're the first.
We'll see you next time. with little to no weight and 24-7 telemedicine from anywhere in the world, Solace protects your busy schedule while getting you on the road to recovery.
They keep their members out of the ER 95% of the time in serene and soothing comfort without the wait, crowds, or confusion. I am a member of Solace Health, and if it wasn't for them, my pain from my kidney stone would have lasted forever.
They saved me in so many ways. I love this place.
Join Solace Health, the first and only medical membership

that's on demand 24-7

and save 15% on your first year

when you use promo code SMARTLESS.

Our show is sponsored

by BetterHelp. Hey guys, everybody

should have a support system, right? Who's your support

system? My support system, as you well know I talk about all the time, is Scotty. And of course, my two besties, Will and Jason.
Whenever I have a problem, an issue, I talk to them about it. And if they're not available, I will talk to a therapist.
And I've been going to therapy for a long time and it's always great. So think about your favorite leaders, mentors, and idols.
They don't have all the answers, but they do know when to ask questions or seek support from their community. In a society that glorifies hyper-independence, it's easy to forget that we're all better when we have a support system behind us.
Therapy can be a source of support for any area of your life. It's time to shift that focus from doing it all to knowing that we're better when we

ask for help. BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, serving over 5 million people worldwide.
Access a diverse network of more than 30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. Easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost.
Build your support system with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash smartless to get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp.com slash smartless.
Hey, so on cooking, on what does it take to be the best chef or one of the best, obviously you need to have great taste, no pun intended. Have you noticed that you are a better chef in one country versus another country based on how you like to cook? Does that make sense? No, it does make sense, and it's exactly that.
Every country, and I wouldn't even say every country around the world even places in america are very different yeah right like just for salt for example in toronto i feel that people wants less salt in their food new york always wants more salt in their food and in japan it's you think with all the soy sauce it'd be very salty no they want it sort of at bare minimum salt in a lot of the food. That's not, say, ramen or something like that.
But in terms of the cuisine and the technique, it's certainly beneficial, I think, to be in America where it is sort of this amalgamation of different immigrants and different techniques. So if you say, you know, we're a chef in, you know, Milan or Florence, Italy, it's hard to know the world because you're only cooking Italian food.

Right.

Right.

And that is a benefit and a sort of a negative simultaneously.

Have you noticed what city or what area, what region is more,

demands a more sort of healthier ingredients?

Like, can you actually determine that?

Is there a clientele that seems like it wants something more stripped down than than other places for sure i think it depends on the customer like the people that go to soul cycle you know that they're gonna i mean you can almost like make a menu exactly for them right the typecasting of the kinds of food that people are gonna like um for for sure and the funny thing with la you think people eat healthier they do they eat healthy lunches i find that a lot of people skip breakfast and they eat like total shit for dinner and with ride sharing right people get fucking shit face now yeah where they didn't used to you're right no it's been great for restaurants. You know when you see like I had this doctor once when I saw him at this bar and he was smoking and I thought that was the craziest thing I'd ever seen.
A doctor smoking. And when I've seen you or chefs on certain shows just eating literally anything they want, I was like yeah.
Because what I love about food is everyone has a different relationship to it, right? Everyone is constantly thinking about it. And like, should I eat more of this, less of this? And the guilt associated with eating something you know is horrible for you but tastes great.
Like how much or how little should we listen to that guilt? Or how much or how little do you listen to that guilt? Because part of it feels like I want what I want because it pleases me. However, I know that what pleases me isn't good for my body.
Therefore, I eat it, but I'm miserable. You know what I mean? Right.
You know, I think like most things when you're younger, you can sort of eat anything. And I remember first tasting like foie gras or something like that, which is just fat.
Yeah. But it's so good.
But at some point, it all catches up with you. And I find that the older chefs get, the less they want to eat the stuff that they actually make.
Oh, really? Yeah. Getting back to the ride-sharing thing, have you noticed that in Los Angeles since Uber and Lyft and all that stuff came into play that the restaurant business increased because, if for no other reason, just the alcohol consumption could happen? Like in New York, I'd imagine people have been making money on alcohol for years because you're jumping in a cab.
But in LA, you always have to factor in that long drive home. Now, no longer.
Has the money gone up? I mean, yes. Before COVID, 100%.
And that was a real boon for the industry because that's how you make money, really, in any kind of restaurant business is beverages. And, you know, bottle of of wine or several cocktails adds up.
And, again, if you are eating in L.A., more often than not, before ride-sharing, most people wouldn't indulge with that second, third, or fourth drink. They'd have maybe one, and that would be it.
Right. Yeah.
You brought up COVID. What is it? Yeah, I guess what is it is the – sorry.
Let me's a is that a note no like a noodles place just the i wish obviously covid has you know completely changed not just restaurants but the economy and how we do everything what do you think the future of restaurants is going to be post covid what do you have a prediction yeah i do and it has not it's not a good one i just spoke spoke with Senator Gillibrand to a bunch of, I don't even know who the hell was on the Zoom call, but I've been saying this since March and it has not been a popular take. And I wish I wasn't right, but I said, I think that 90% of all independent restaurants will close without intervention from the government.
And I think I'm right. I think maybe it's 85%, 90%.
Is that because of the occupancy limitations? Yeah, I mean, it's 25% depending on, like New York is 25% indoors. Las Vegas is, say, 50%.
I think California is 25% still. Everything's the same.
The economics are still the same. The fixed costs haven't changed.
And I'll tell you, if you're not 100% occupancy for a restaurant, you're losing money. Right.
Wow. Yeah.
I heard Tom Colicchio say this, kind of pitch this thing on the Bill Maher show. Tom had suggested, like he had this whole idea of why when this happened, when this pandemic happened, didn't the government utilize all the restaurant businesses to feed people to then keep the restaurant businesses, the

economy going that way when there was all of these shortages at farms and with milk and

produce and meats.

I thought it was a great idea.

No, it's an idea that was certainly floated and the government, not a surprise.

They decided not to do it because...

Sean, don't get pissed off.

Don't get pissed off.

I thought this was a real opportunity. I thought you could have had susie the saucier in 2020 and getting subsidized by the government to do something that communities needed and it just hasn't happened so um i want to i always wanted to ask somebody like you uh an incredibly accomplished chef like you we always want to know like what you eat what you like and because these guys know that i'd literally do anything anybody wanted for a free milkshake or a cookie and if you had to eat the same thing yeah or a cookie or a cookie cake if you had to eat the same thing for a week what what would it be like what is your sugar if you had if you had to pick.
How about a donut chunk? Same thing for one week? Yeah. I don't know, man.

Or what? Like, what is your just, if you had to pick something. How about a donut chunk? Same thing for one week? Yeah.
I don't know, man. Okay, then forget that.
I'd probably choose, like, fried chicken, I guess. Okay.
You know? Sorry, David, you should know. The reason he's asking is because he quite literally eats a tuna sandwich with plain chips every day for lunch.
Keep going. Is that real? On a paper plate.
Go ahead. Yeah, almost every day.
Or a peanut butter sandwich. Wait, wait.
Tell me about this tuna sandwich. Yeah.
Are you making this tuna sandwich yourself or are you buying it from like a deli? Great question. Both, but I make it most of the time.
I just put the tuna, the canned tuna. What kind of tuna? What kind of tuna? Are you using spring water or olive oil? Water.
No oil. No oil.
That's not a good thing. Number one.
Why? You lose there. That's gross.
What do you mean? No, because they put mayonnaise in it and celery, and that's it. Yeah, but even still, spring water, tuna, that's, come on, you got to change it up.
Let me ask you this. Is there too much mercury in tuna? I don't know that answer.
Well, then we got to go. Wait, wait, wait.
Wait, wait. Like, walk us through it, Sean.
This is a great line. So, because David wants to know.
Because David, this is his area. So you're like, Scotty, I'm going to make some lunch.
And so you slip, slip, slip into the kitchen. Slippers, slippers.
The sound of your slippers. Right? Sorry.
And you're like, somebody get some fucking WD-40 in here. The fucking closet is still creaking so then you take out a can of tuna what do you got you got the I usually do two star kissed yeah two cans huh yeah two cans well because you're exercising a lot probably two cans so you've got the two cans you got the two cans of star kissed tuna yeah and water and then you do the thing and you just, by hand, you don't have one of those automatic...

No, it's a hand thing.

Okay, so a hand thing.

And it's Miracle Whip.

It's bring out the best foods and bring out the best.

Best foods.

We don't need the jingle, just the brand.

Best foods mayonnaise.

Okay.

And then you chop...

How much mayonnaise?

How much mayonnaise?

A lot.

All you can handle.

A ton.

A lot.

Okay.

That's the only good thing I've heard so far.

Okay, and so...

And the celery.

And I have to eat it with celery.

Texture.

Now see, but now a great chef will think about what the size of those celery cuts are going to be. Correct, David? Correct, Jason.
You are very accurate. So now we know this.
David, what would you do if it occurred to you that you wanted to make a tuna salad sandwich? How would you go about it?

For real.

How would you make it different?

Well, I wouldn't use tuna in spring water because I think it's just too bland.

You might as well drink a Soylent shake at that point.

I'm open to it.

I mean, I just think the olive oil is better and better tasting.

And there's better brands, not to be a total fucking snob. There's better brands of canned tuna as well be a snob be a snob so i would i'd probably do that although downstairs i probably have some sun kissed as well and then star kiss you got a two-story house there or is it a basement is it a basement i've brunoise some onions like diced some onions and some celery.
And then I'd probably add a little bit more lemon juice. And then I'd do mayonnaise.
I don't use best foods. I'd use a mayonnaise called QP, which is from Japan.
And I'd do some salt and pepper and maybe a little bit of agave for sweetness to bring it out. Wow.
That's a whole new level of some sweetness. What kind of bread would you put it on, David sorry just to we're gonna flash toast the bread yeah i would toast the bread a little bit maybe a multi-grain type of sure yeah would you put butter on that on that toast shut the hell up unnecessary so david no sean no david david this is my problem with cooking you've just described a 45 45-minute process for a five-minute sandwich.
That's exactly right. And that's why I don't cook.
Well, no. That's why? That's, well.
That's not why. Main reason.
And then 20 minutes to clean. Everything I just said, I could make in under five minutes.
Wow. See? So, David, I want to swing back.
I'm not a swinger but swing back to what golf i want to i wanted to swing back no i want to swing back to something you were talking about playing golf with your dad and your your dad actually did your dad partner with you on one of your in your first restaurant he did is that true yeah there was a lot of family drama going on and i obviously had a contentious relationship with my dad here's tuck into this. Yeah, I want to know that.
Grab it. You have any alcohol there, David? Just start sipping.
We're going to get you crying in about 20 minutes. He never said, like, I love you or anything.
He was a very stern Asian father. And there was a lot of shit going on personally and in my family.
Is your dad still with us? No, he's not. He passed away recently.
Sorry about that. I'm sorry.
It's all good. And I remember being like a lot of my friends were going to graduate school.
And I was like, fuck it. I saw how much money I might need to start this restaurant.
I was like, it's cheaper than graduate school. And then I also remember being, well, if I'm 26 years old and I have to declare bankruptcy, then that's not so bad.
But you didn't lead with that, with your conversation with your dad. I think I did.
I said, listen, I'm, I'm doing this with or without you and I'm going to raise the money. I said, you know, and I think he offered and he, and he got three of his friends and they pitched in a loan that I paid back in two years, 125 grand.
And I'm very fortunate, very fortunate, obviously. But I even got to the point of thinking about doing crazier things, like actually applying to school, using the graduate money loan, and then bankrolling the school that way.
I love it. I was going to do something crazy.
That was a lot of pressure then, too. Not only did you know that your dad specifically had his eye on you for excellence and you wanted to make him proud, but now you're asking for his seed money as well.
Good for you. That must have felt great to pay him back and for him to have seen the incredible success you've had before he passed.
Did he ever give it up to you about the success? You know how he did it? He told me a few years back, stop working so hard. Oh, I see.
Did he really? Yeah. That's cool.
Wow. That was his way.
Do you have kids now? I do. I have a 19-month-old.
And so wasn't the blessing in disguise to have a father like that so you can just shower your kid with tons and tons of love? Yeah, it's been amazing. I'm definitely the father that I'm not.
What if you were like, no, I'm exactly the same way, and I don't want to ever see my kid? You get into that, into fatherhood before, you know, in Ugly Delicious. I think it's season two in the first episode.
When you find out, it reveals that you and your wife are expecting a baby boy. And you really, one of the great things about that show was, it wasn't just about food.
It was about how food kind of connects us and how, what food, the role it's played in your life and how it's connected you to your family and was connecting you to your new family. And I was really, really moved by that episode.
The way you talk to your mom and your sister and your mother-in-law and your wife, and then you

kind of go investigate other people and you talk to other restaurateurs about their relationship. I forget that restaurant in Oregon, your friend has that cool restaurant.
Yeah, Peter's restaurant. What's it called? Hanok.
Hanok. Yeah.
And he lives there. He lives on one side of the restaurant and then, and it's kind of like, there's just like a wall separating the kitchen and his kitchen.
i just love the way that you there are because i feel the same way that there there is no division we can't put our lives into these different boxes it's all one big soup you know and nice these lives that we live thank you or stew soup better soup better no no it goes to go i'm not married to a soup but but I could go either way. Broth, broth, broth.
Broth is good. Yeah, because broth, which brings me to— Cleaner.
Yeah, it's cleaner. That's in your show too about how broth is like such a huge— But I just love the way that you broke that down, that like it's all connected in the way that we live our lives and that we can't compartmentalize and that it's all just like this big and i was really impressed with your

connection to family and how important it was to you and i wonder now you know now meeting you because you were so nervous about becoming a dad and you were so honest about it and uh and i remember your mom saying that you were going to be great parents she said your wife was going to be even better well yeah that's what she said the only reason i'd be a good parent was because of my wife. Yeah, I know.
I'm glad to see you're still mad about that. But did all your dreams come true? Did it happen the way you thought it would? You know, being a dad has been amazing.
And I think it's been the only highlight of quarantine because my son's not old enough to go to school and drive me crazy. But being a dad's been amazing because all I did was work or go out and have just do whatever I wanted to do.
And I never intended to think that I would ever have a family or I thought I'd just be a bachelor my entire life. And still thinking about it or options always there.
But like being a dad has caused me to being a husband has, I think, caused me and forced me, not forced, I think I've willingly tried to be better and to grow up. I think it's taken me a long time to decide to grow up instead of being a fucking jerk.
Yeah. Is that what made you nervous about the prospect of being a parent, about the sort of responsibility that would immediately come? Or was it more tied into sort of like your experience as a child? There was that, you know, I definitely didn't want to raise my future child the way I was raised, but I wanted to be present.
I wanted to, I didn't know how it would affect how I worked. Right.
Yeah. And that was my big concern is how do I find a division between work and life? And, you know, it's something I'm still trying to figure out.
Yeah. You know, even when my son was born in pre-COVID.
Right. I travel a lot.
Right. Whether it's filming TV or the restaurants or whatever shit I got to do.
I mean, I think it's like probably five, almost a little over five months a year. I'm on the road.
And even when I am at home working, you know, it's, I see you in the morning and I'll see you the next morning, you know? And I think that's how a lot of my friends that work now in LA, most of my friends in New York saw their kids, you know, they, they're with their nannies or some, somebody that's looking after the kids, but their parents are working. And, you know, I, I just was like, man, I want to be a dad.
That's literally my number one job. I want to be good at is be a dad like that.
If you ask me what you care about the most, obviously I want to make sure that I can financially take care of my family and the people that work for me and the company. But I think overall my priority when I found out my wife was pregnant was I want to be something that I think I'm going to be terrible at, which is being a dad.
Every morning is a new beginning, a chance for a strong start. And it starts at breakfast time.
And I just started eating breakfast again. I'd stopped for so long and I started eating breakfast again.
And I kind of like it. From delicious old-fashioned and quick oats

to instant oatmeal that microwaves in 60 seconds,

Quaker helps start your morning on a good note.

And as a good source of fiber,

it's no surprise that Quaker oatmeal is the goat.

That's greatest oatmeal of all time.

See what we did there?

Try a delicious bowl of Quaker oatmeal today.

Quaker, bring out the good. The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, and prioritize what matters most.
If financial wellness is a top priority for you in the new year, Rocket Money is here to help. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.
Rocket Money will even try to negotiate lower bills for you. They automatically scan your bills to find opportunities to save, and then from there, you can ask them to negotiate for you.
They'll deal with customer service so you don't have to. Rocket Money has over 5 million users and has saved a total of $500 million in canceled subscriptions,

saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features. Cancel your unwanted subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.
Go to rocketmoney.com

slash smartless today. That's rocketmoney.com slash smartless.
rocketmoney.com slash smartless. Thank you to Paramount Plus for sponsoring today's episode of Smartless.
Paramount Plus is the home of the UEFA Champions League. The UEFA Champions League has reached the knockout stage where the best of the best in European club soccer face off to be crowned champions of Europe.

Watch the best coverage of the best soccer in the world

all season long live on Paramount+.

Experience the excitement of every single match live

exclusively on Paramount+.

Visit ParamountPlus.com slash LiveSports to get started.

Are you still enjoying the entrepreneurship of opening multiple restaurants multiple restaurants like is it still excite you invigorate you get you out of bed in the morning i mean yeah it changes it changes it's this post-covid world we'll see what happens right but two years ago i stepped down as ceo and and uh we have other people in place for the culinary decisions anything, I feel like I'm just like a guidance counselor. So I've been focusing a lot more on media, so I can be a little bit.
It does sound lucrative, though. This is why we have the two-story house, guys.
So sorry. Keep going, David.
He didn't say two. It could be three.
He might have made multiple stories. Good point.
So, you know, that's where I'm at is I don't know. You know we we're we're we're facing some challenging times and i always say again i'm never going to do another restaurant and yet i always do another goddamn restaurant yeah what what would be the natural progression for somebody like yourself uh and to piggyback on that is there something else you want to you dreamed of doing ever you know i'm i'm these are really hard pressing questions for me right now i well this is a tough listen we have the hard one told me you guys would be this hard smartless we need an answer well we make leslie stall look easy okay i'm out of here i uh yeah i think for me career-wise just like what I want to cook is very different.

And I'm trying to find some metaphor analogy, but I just, while I always care about eating in a fancy restaurant and all these things, like now I just want to cook or make things

that are just wholesome and pure, like a sandwich or a piece of pizza.

I don't want the artistry.

Like a tuna sandwich.

Even a tuna sandwich, right?

I care more about, not about winning awards or I just want to do something that is good, simple as that. I don't care about winning awards either.
That's why I never win them because I'm like, you know what? I don't want them. Yeah, currently the big awards go to those places that design a plate that almost doesn't even look like food, right? The artistry of it, the way that it's all it's like an oscar film you know like best picture there's a certain film you know that's not necessarily populist but it's it's complicated i get it i think i've always wanted to be something that's populist but even still now i just would rather serve a bowl of chili yeah yeah you know what mean? Like that to me is more appealing, both in taste

and how someone might consume it. You know, you have a restaurant that's kind of lo-fi like that.

Um, yeah, but it's still not exactly where it could go. And I don't even think it could be a

restaurant, right? The kind of food that I personally, and the thing is I'm making more

food now at home than ever before. What about like a diner? What do you do with your leftovers?

And just give me your address real quick. Give it outside.
I'd be good for leftovers, David. But my restaurants are hard, man.
They're so goddamn hard. Where do you stand on design or do you just punt that to a partner? I mean, originally, I didn't care about design or service.
It's true. Like, if you talk to anybody about the restaurants, our restaurants were like jail cells, very minimal, no comforts, very loud music and very much in your face, young and obnoxious.
And it was very punk rock in some ways without being punk. Right.
And I liked the hard challenge and I wanted to win someone over with nothing but the food. Yeah.
Going back to what I was at, like, is there something completely outside of the culinary world that you always dreamed of doing or you would want to kind of dabble in? Sean has, he has to ask that question. I want to pitch you some ideas, yeah.
He can't not ask that question. Because I'm always interested in what other people are interested in other than the thing they're known for.
Well, I'm sort of doing that.

You know, I'm like sort of trying to figure out what that is.

I'm still – will always be related with food.

I think we're making a bunch of consumer product goods like sauces and salts and stuff.

We're going to get into the hard goods business.

And part of this is – how should I phrase this?

I like to do things that people think are stupid, or like it's not cool go on and if you ask a lot of chefs or even like a younger version of me would you sell a pots and pans or fucking a line of sauces i'd be like what a fucking sellout in some ways it's like how do you turn that yes it's maybe selling out but how do you make it awesome well you, you can put in the component of like Paul Newman, where he sort of became somewhat philanthropic by selling salad dressing. That's not cool.
You gave all his money away. Listen, let me just tell you this.
David, there's no such thing as selling out. There's only buying in.
Okay? Full stop. You talk about all these places to go? Where do you like to go?

I mean, all things being equal and, you know, without COVID, et cetera.

When you're sitting at home and it's like, you know, you look at your wife and you look at your wife and you're like, let's go.

I really want to have something that's satisfying and going to make me feel good.

Where do you, what's the first place you think of?

In New York, it's a sushi restaurant called Shuko in downtown, in like sort of the West Village. It's so good.
Okay. You know, it's different.
What street's it on? I think it's like 12th Street between 5th and 6th or Greenwich and Broadway. What about Los Angeles? We're in Los Angeles, right? Man, that's the thing.
LA, there's so many places. But really, that arts district is sort of where the newer spots are, which is amazing to me.
The best of you guys, Bobble. Hey, Jason, try to sound older, by the way.
Yeah. What? Is it not? You hear that arts district is where all the new kids.
Yeah, me and the lady. Jesus fucking.
You know what? Just take yourself out to the shed and kill yourself. For Christ's sake.
I do not get out, David. What about this spa go I've been hearing about? There's so many good spots.
I went to one time Matsuhisa. We went, and it's not cheap, and it was us, and it was Thoreau and Rashida Jones, and we decided to play the credit card roulette, and whoever lost had to pay for the meal, and Thoreau lost.
And he was so mad for real that he, cause he's, and I'll say this, he's so cheap and he, it's just us talking. It's just us talking, right? He won't be right.
He doesn't fucking listen to our show. He cries when he orgasms too, apparently.
Every time. Totally does.

And I'm always there to wipe the tears.

It's weird.

Remember when we could go out and eat?

Jesus, fuck.

Sean, we're still recording.

Oh, sorry.

Can you just up the energy a little bit? What about the tower bar?

Yeah.

What about the tower bar?

Hey, Sean, can you pull the pamphlet into the frames? Scotty, bring another pill in for you It's almost night-night time It's five fingers of Chardonnay, the pill, and then he's out And a cup of tuna I can't wait, I get excited around this time of day Wait a second, wait a second Before we lose before we lose our shit the last thing David I want to ask you about your book can you talk a little bit about your new book yeah Eat a Peach great song yeah fuck man it's out it's a memoir you can read about my crazy life I don't even understand why it's out there I've been pretending that it didn't happen that's the easiest way for me to get through life because it's so it's so revelatory you're so open and honest in it so it's kind of like you have to pretend right that everybody's not reading about your yeah what you're thinking about did you read it did you read it for an audiobook i did i don't know that's why i was was like, you guys are so good at doing this shit. I don't know how.
Of course I read all the criticism. First thing.
Yeah, he shouldn't have read his own book. Never read any criticism or reviews because if you believe the good ones, you got to believe the bad ones too.
So are like avoiding phone calls no no i mean it's it's been i think incredibly well received uh we were supposed to it was supposed to come out in may and we had like a 21 city book door so uh that's not happening but um you know i it's just weird because i don't know it's not only weird the book is there, it's weird that I'm such a competitive person and I'm like, fuck, you know, I got to beat all these goddamn Trump books. Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Call order right now. David, listen, we've taken up too much of your time already.
I can't thank you enough, man. Uh, I think you're such a cool dude and, and you've done so many amazing things and, uh, uh you know i just wish you nothing but success and thanks for coming here and giving us your time i'm so glad i met you david i'm gonna make you a tuna fish sandwich now that's that's what i gotta do i would love to see your version i would love by the way yes i would kill to taste that no i'm serious i'm going to we're gonna i'm gonna get you info, and I'm going to make you something that hopefully you will enjoy.
I would kill for that. That's so cool.
Thank you, David. Yeah, leave it outside in the sun for a few hours, and I'll pick it up.
Thank you for being with us, pal. Thank you, David.
Thank you, David. See you later, man.
Thanks, guys. I feel like we have a good shot at getting a table inside of a week.
Yeah. Inside of a week, the three of us could call and say, like, Sean and Jason and Will want to come in for dinner, and they want it to be gratis.
He literally just texted me. Right? Like, we shouldn't.
Because we're friends. They'll probably throw in the desserts maybe, right? Do you think? Maybe.
You know me. I don't like dessert.
You know how much I love dessert, right? I know, Angel. I love it so much.
Yeah, I loved him, though. He was great.
He's super normal. Yeah.
Super normal and such a huge family guy. And really, I implore our listener to watch second season of Ugly Delicious, episode one.
And what he's really struggling with when he finds out that he's going to have a kid.

It's such a beautiful kind of exploration of himself.

He's really honest about himself.

He's like, I don't know if I'll be any good.

I think I'm going to be a terrible dad.

He's really worried.

Will you stop rolling up your sleeves?

Yeah, it's so gross.

Will is just like pulling,

he's wearing a short sleeve shirt.

He's just pulling up the sleeves

and making it a tank top.

I'm hot.

I don't want to look at your dumb guns.

How are they?

They're dumb.

Are they not great?

Thank you. sleeve shirt and just pulling up the sleeves and making it a tank top i don't want to look at your dumb guns how are they they're dumb are they not great no i guess they're good all right they're fine well we should probably go look at look at my noodles my forearms are bigger than my biceps what's wrong with me yeah so like a ramen noodle just like a really take a photo of it insta no he doesn't he doesn't insta he don't you don't have an instagram yet do you he does is he talking about Take an instant picture? Instagram.
Like a Polaroid? Well, post. Take a picture of it, Insta.
No, he doesn't Insta. You don't have an Instagram yet, do you? He does.
Is he talking about take an instant picture? Instagram. Like a Polaroid? Well, post.
Take a picture of it and post it. So Jason...
Take it to the post office. Oh, God.
Jesus. The longest bit.
Well, let me just see how many stamps I've got left because I did a lot of mailing already today. I mailed my wife a letter.
She's right next to me.

But the journey was incredible.

I mailed her a letter every day to let her know I love her.

All right, we should probably kick it.

I guess we should wrap it up.

Love, David.

Love, David.

Yeah.

The other thing is,

bye.

Bye.

Bye.

Smart.

Nice. Hey, friends.
Jason here. We're so excited the Smart List has officially joined the SiriusXM family.
We can't wait to announce new surprise guests who we know that you'll love. If you want to be the first to hear new episodes ad-free in a whole week early, subscribe to SiriusXM Podcasts Plus on Apple Podcasts or visit SiriusXM.com slash podcasts plus to start your free trial today.
With cars.com's massive inventory, you get to shop over 2 million new and used cars for over 2 million possibilities. Seriously, if you can't find the right car for you with cars.com, it's you, not them.
Because cars.com adds up to 50,000 cars to their inventory daily.

Wherever life takes you next, and whoever you're looking to be,

there's a car for that on cars.com. Visit cars.com and start exploring your next possibility today.

At Capella University, learning online doesn't mean learning alone.

You'll get dedicated support from people who care about your success.

A different future is closer than you think with Capella University.

Learn more at capella.edu.