"David Chang"

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Speaker 2 Hey there, Will Arnett here from Smartless. It's the podcast where Jason Bateman, Sean Hayes, and I interview somebody.

Speaker 2 Two of us don't know who that person is because one of us has brought on a surprise guest. That's the whole conceit.
I wish I could describe it better, but I'm not that smart.

Speaker 2 So it's Smartless, and it's starting now. Smartless.

Speaker 2 Smart.

Speaker 2 Hey, are we rolling? Are we gonna, are we doing this?

Speaker 2 We're already podcasting. That's the great thing about podcasting.
Sometimes you're just doing it and you don't even know. What about my tasty flair I've got on my

Speaker 2 JJ Abrams? Did you have J.J. Abrams over? Yeah, dude.

Speaker 2 Do you be hey?

Speaker 1 Did you guys ever? Did you guys see that Nexium thing? That documentary called The Vow?

Speaker 2 It's, you know, Nexium's a little bit more for like yeah like if you have heartburn heartburn or loose stools there's an entire documentary about loose stools and heartburn no way was i happy when my doctor said nexium like that kind of thing it was that cult thing i know what you mean i did watch the first episode and i loved it I can't believe I haven't been back yet.

Speaker 1 It's so wild.

Speaker 2 Blame it on the Dodge. I got to say, and I mean this, and Sean, you know how much I love you and I've loved you for a long time.

Speaker 2 I feel like you could get caught up in a cult.

Speaker 1 Who says I'm not?

Speaker 2 That's true. I feel like you could just drift away.

Speaker 1 By the way, this guy said, okay, so wait, I got to tell you. So the guy, the crazy sexual predator guy who runs the whole thing, sounds like a great guy.
Yeah, he sounds amazing.

Speaker 2 Those poor women. But anyway, it's so fucked up, man.
It's really fucked up.

Speaker 1 But it's really fascinating that people can get sucked into that cult like that.

Speaker 2 I'm going to be honest with you. I saw that thing.
You and I, you asked me about that the other day. We were FaceTiming on a personal FaceTime.
And I... Did I ask you about the vow about,

Speaker 2 yeah. Yeah.
And I thought, I don't, it just seems too dark for me. I mean, as much as I like to, I can't take that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 I'm like, yeah, I guess I'm the thing that attracts me about those things is like, I'm fascinated by how somebody can believe that. Like, what point did you get there? Yeah, that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2 We're getting very close to a religious conversation, which I don't think would end well. No.

Speaker 2 And also, we have a really, really great guest today that I'm excited to. Pope John Paul.
No. No.
It's

Speaker 1 could you imagine if we got like Will

Speaker 2 looking. How great would it be

Speaker 2 if one of us was like, the Pope is here.

Speaker 2 That would never happen.

Speaker 1 And he still has the hat on and everything.

Speaker 2 Here comes Will's crappy intro. Let's hear it.
It's not a, you know what? First of all, it's not going to be flat. Speaking of crappy intros, I've heard I don't even try.
I listen to the podcast.

Speaker 2 You don't try at all. I know.
Well, that's, I don't want to insult the guest by trying to craft some big flowery thing. Trying to put any work into it.
No, you don't want to insult them with that.

Speaker 2 Yeah, this isn't for work. This is just chat and giggle.

Speaker 2 Chat and giggle. Well, I'm going to say this.
Our special guest today is a really, really formidable person.

Speaker 2 He has accomplished so much in what I think is a pretty small amount of time.

Speaker 2 This is a guy who

Speaker 2 really started at sort of square one, worked in a bunch of restaurants, then started his own restaurant, then started multiple restaurants and businesses, then started a very popular TV show on PBS called Mind of a Chef, and then went and did his documentary series about food called Ugly Delicious.

Speaker 1 I've seen Ugly Delicious.

Speaker 2 He started Momofuku. Oh, my God.
All those restaurants, started in New York, and then Sydney, and Toronto and Tokyo and Los Angeles and everywhere. He sounds loaded.

Speaker 2 I just want to get him in here so we can start talking to him. Our guest today

Speaker 2 is Mr. David Chang.
Oh, yeah. Holy smokes.

Speaker 2 David Chang, look at him go. I would love it if you were just chewing when we saw you.

Speaker 2 What a pleasure. I'm so psyched you're here, David.
What? Now, first of all, David, why?

Speaker 3 Listen, it's that voice. His voice is just so soothing.
I'll do anything. anything.
Thank you.

Speaker 2 Thank you, David. Welcome to Mama Fuku.
You know what I mean? I'm just saying, like, when you walk in.

Speaker 2 Is that a new thing at the hostess table? I'm just saying when you walk in, if you walked in and you heard that and you thought, like, uh, activated when the door opens.

Speaker 2 A server will be by to take your order soon. Relax.

Speaker 2 Okay. I'd be like, I'm relaxed.
And a little horny. Maybe a little bit.
I'd be like, is this a fuck restaurant? What's going on?

Speaker 2 David Chang, I've actually seen Ugly Delicious.

Speaker 1 It's really great. It's a great show, and you're amazing on it.
I'm a big fan. Thank you.
I need to go eat at your restaurant in Los Angeles.

Speaker 3 Yeah, Major Domo. It's the one that's not called Momofuku.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's right. Major Domo.
And

Speaker 2 the first time I went to Momofuku in New York, I went with our friend David Cross years ago.

Speaker 2 You probably know David.

Speaker 3 Yeah, longtime supporter.

Speaker 2 I do. We did a show together, Will.
Yeah. Sorry, I'm talking to David, Jason.
I know that. That was a cheap, easy joke.

Speaker 2 And he introduced me to the wonderful world of your culinary delights.

Speaker 2 But you've done so much.

Speaker 2 It is hard to try to intro you because

Speaker 2 you are.

Speaker 2 You're super young, right? Aren't you? Yeah, that's what I mean. Look at the guy.

Speaker 3 I thought I'm 43 this summer. I don't feel young.

Speaker 2 Jesus. Wow, that is old.
That is

Speaker 2 all the. No, no, no, no, no.
Don't make him feel bad.

Speaker 2 Only a 51-year-old can see.

Speaker 3 Wait, when you open restaurant after restaurant aren't you just like isn't it just like a big huge roll of the dice are you just like yes it is every time i finish opening a restaurant i tell myself i'm never gonna do that again ever yeah i'm sure ever but i would assume obviously the the the more you do the longer you're around the more your clientele becomes expanded and the the openings become less risky right and your brand is bigger yeah yes and no i mean in some ways they don't want us to do anything new but they also want us to do something new So you got to find that fine line of pushing the envelope, but keeping it comfortable for everybody.

Speaker 2 Like a rock band. So you started, you worked at, I think I've got this right.
You worked in a bunch of restaurants and you worked, you worked for Tom Galicio for a while at his restaurant.

Speaker 2 And you kind of... Top chef.
Yeah, of top chef fame. And you kind of bounced around.
You worked at a bunch of different places. What was that moment you decided, I'm going to open my own shop? Because

Speaker 2 to Sean's point, it's a big risk. It takes a lot of guts.

Speaker 2 What were those conversations like to go, I'm going to do this?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, truthfully, the main reason I decided to open up my own restaurant is I was never going to have my own restaurant if I did it in a traditional way.

Speaker 2 Right. At all.

Speaker 3 There was just no way.

Speaker 2 What would the traditional way be?

Speaker 3 So, you know, I opened up in 2004 and I was still working for Danielle Belude at Cafe Belude in 2003.

Speaker 3 And, you know, I had cooked professionally for about four plus years, not enough, but I had, you know, traveled around, seen a lot of different things, worked abroad.

Speaker 3 And if you wanted to open up your own restaurant back then, which wasn't that long ago, you had to be a patron to the restaurant and know the chef and say, hey, I'm, I'm, I'm moving back to Minnesota.

Speaker 3 I want to open up a restaurant. Do you have a chef that you could like give me? And that's how like most people, most chefs got their own restaurants is a, you know, through someone they knew.

Speaker 3 No one was like, I'm going to open up my own restaurant. That almost never happened.

Speaker 3 And I'm a relatively competitive person. I I looked at the kitchen where I was at.
I said, oh, I was probably 13 out of, you know, 13 in the progression of maybe I'll get my own kitchen.

Speaker 3 And I was like, I can't do this. I got to find a different way.
And one of the things that I learned when I was living in Japan was, you know, food didn't have to be super expensive to be good. And

Speaker 3 I just want to do something different. So I decided not to open up a French fancy restaurant and do something different.
And that's why.

Speaker 3 If I was better, truthfully, I I probably would never have opened up Momofuku.

Speaker 2 But you've talked about it before. You were kind of over fancy restaurants.
You were kind of, you'd kind of had enough. Is that true? Yeah.

Speaker 3 I mean, I worked at most, if you ask a lot of people back then, they worked at fancy restaurants, not because they cared about the food per se or the clientele.

Speaker 3 It was the only place you could work with the best ingredients and learn the best techniques.

Speaker 3 So in some ways, you know, I got tired. I remember coming back and it was a lot of culture shock for me moving back to America

Speaker 3 and then being on the Upper East Side and having to, you know, chop a salad even more and everything sauce on the side and custom, you know, making everything for all of these.

Speaker 1 So, Jason ate there. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Jason Pateman is well known in the color any world as being one of the most difficult people to cook for.

Speaker 2 I have the waiter pull up a chair.

Speaker 2 And this, I'm glad that you touched on this. And Jason is definitely

Speaker 2 somebody who's guilty of this. But

Speaker 2 as a Canadian, the first time I didn't experience that kind of like asking for special stuff until I came to this country.

Speaker 2 First of all, I never do that.

Speaker 2 What am I, Meg Ryan?

Speaker 2 Poor Meg Ryan. Now she's in the same category as you.
I mean, Sally. Harry met Sally.
Isn't there a famous sort of this? I'll have what she's having. No difference teen.

Speaker 1 No, she was very picky.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But I love that.
I love, you know,

Speaker 2 what she's having. That's a great question.
But what happens in that scene? I don't know. I I don't know the reference.
But that idea of people going like, yes, and I remember

Speaker 2 being with somebody the first time they sent food back, I was so embarrassed. I was like, Jesus Christ.
And it wasn't because there was something wrong with it.

Speaker 2 It was like, it just wasn't the way they wanted it. Yeah.
What I will do is if food shows up not hot,

Speaker 2 I

Speaker 2 for me, it feels like it doesn't taste as flavorful. And so I will ask.
Even sushi? Yeah. I will ask the waiter to

Speaker 2 see if they can throw it under the light longer or whatever, however, whatever happens.

Speaker 2 Because that's how they cook it. They just cook it with light.
Because I figured the chef wants the food to be bursting with flavor. And the colder it gets, the more muted the flavor gets.

Speaker 2 Or am I crazy?

Speaker 3 No, no, you're absolutely right. Hot food's supposed to be served hot.
Cold food is supposed to be served cold.

Speaker 3 And if you go to a restaurant and you're served something that is cold and it should be hot, you have every right to send it back.

Speaker 2 Because I figure it's probably either the waiter was too busy or some of the chef didn't want it at that temperature.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, anyway. But the thing is, it's called a pass in most restaurants when the food hits sort of the organization before it goes right out to the dining room.

Speaker 3 So much shit can go wrong by that time.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. Of course, let me ask you this, because you brought this up.
I've always wanted to know, and this feel like, is this a myth? You know, we've all done it before.

Speaker 2 Somebody's like rude to the waiter or whatever, and they go like, oh, you're guaranteed. Or they sent something back.

Speaker 2 Yeah, you're guaranteed for the whole, the whole kitchen's going to spit in your soup now or whatever. Right.
Without divulging any names. Have you ever seen that?

Speaker 3 No, no, no, no. I mean, listen, it's hilarious.

Speaker 3 You know, I watched that movie Waiting, and I think a lot of people that are cooks watch that movie because it's like something we wish we could do, but that's never anything anyone's ever seen.

Speaker 2 Great. So we can lay that to rest now.

Speaker 3 I mean, do people shit talk customers behind their back all the time? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Wait, what?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, no, but I mean, if somebody sends

Speaker 2 Jason Bateman

Speaker 2 sends a plate back to be reheated, is that a common thing? Or should I be as mortified as I feel when I do do it? Which is not often.

Speaker 3 The only time it's a problem is when the customer's wrong, right?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 3 like it happens all the time. Like, for example, oh, I think this bottle of wine is corked and it's not corked, right? Or this steak should be rare and it's not.
The customer's actually wrong, right?

Speaker 3 And I think for years, even if the customer is wrong, the restaurant just sort of had had to eat shit. And I sort of decided I was no longer going to do that.

Speaker 3 I would tell the customer, no, you're wrong.

Speaker 2 Nice, nice.

Speaker 2 I feel like I took us off on a, on a tangent here in making David defend the restaurant industry and the people who are screaming like, fucking Jason Bateman's kale apparently isn't hot enough.

Speaker 2 But yes, you took David and me down in your line of question.

Speaker 2 But I do want to get back to something you said. Oh, good.
There's more from Will. No, I just wanted to say, well, he's my guest, and I want to hog this time with David.
I'm so excited.

Speaker 2 I've only got three questions. Don't wear them all out.
Let me say this. You talked about being competitive and when you started the restaurant.
You were, not a lot of people know this.

Speaker 2 I don't think that you were a golf prodigy as a kid.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's weird to think about it that way. I mean, because obviously I never panned out as a golfer, but my dad was way ahead of his time.

Speaker 3 Now, if you go to the golf course or golf tournaments, you're going to see tons of Asian kids with their parents yelling at them. My dad was the OG Asian dad yelling at his son to be better at golf.

Speaker 2 Wow. No way.
You know, Will just got me re-addicted to golf, and I played every day for the last month.

Speaker 2 This whole interview is now going to go to golf. Listen,

Speaker 3 it was so uncool to play golf back then, mind you. Like, no one.

Speaker 2 It's not that cool now.

Speaker 3 It's not that cool now.

Speaker 2 No. But I burned out.

Speaker 3 I burned out really young. I mean, I won a bunch of tournaments, and there was this kid named Tiger Woods and Phil Nicholson.
They were a little bit better than everybody else, too.

Speaker 2 No way. Really? So you were here in Los Angeles?

Speaker 3 No, i was i grew up in northern virginia but i remember trying to qualify for this tournament called the big eye in houston and i never qualified but for three years there was this kid that was a year or two older than me that was on the cover of the pamphlet and i was like how the fuck am i ever going to beat this guy he's so much better than everybody back then so that was tiger yeah wow and so were you a plus or were you a scratch i was depending on the golf course my home golf club i was a scratch good god and what about now if i took you right now no no no last time i played i i so the last time i played a round of golf seriously was 2003 and i threw my golf clubs into the ocean at oldhead in ireland

Speaker 3 and the 18th hole is this majestic thing overlooking the ocean and then and like i literally was thinking to myself maybe i could practice and and try for the tour or something like that how old were you I don't know.

Speaker 3 I was probably like 25, 26, because my dad has always said, oh, you have all these natural gifts, but I never had the head game because I just was a basket case.

Speaker 3 And, you know, the thing about Ireland is they don't have a lot of practice ranges, so you just like go there cold.

Speaker 2 It takes you four holes to figure out your swing.

Speaker 3 And I literally had like a quadruple bogey birdie, and it was the most schizophrenic round I've ever played.

Speaker 2 That sounds like my game, right, Jay? Yeah, except for the birdies.

Speaker 3 So I said, fuck this, I'm never gonna play this ever again. I chucked my clubs in the ocean.
My dad yelled at me, and I was like, Dad, I played for those golf books.

Speaker 2 I can do whatever I want. So you have not played since?

Speaker 3 I played once last summer, and uh,

Speaker 3 that was uh, I, I,

Speaker 3 I probably won't play again.

Speaker 2 What'd you shoot?

Speaker 3 Something in the 90s? I shot like, I think, like, an 88.

Speaker 2 Well, David, that's totally fine for a guy who's actually got a job. And who never plays?

Speaker 3 I'm just, golf does not bring me any joy whatsoever. I just, I have to.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 3 I mean, I'm that kind of personality, addictive personality, where if I had the chance, even though I don't like playing the game, I would play and practice all day to be that asshole that wins a club championship every year.

Speaker 3 Yeah. And nobody likes that guy.

Speaker 2 Right. No, I'm dangerously close to getting that.

Speaker 1 Why did you stick with it for so long? Just because you had a gift for it?

Speaker 3 No, I was scared of my dad.

Speaker 2 My father. Right.

Speaker 3 Scared of my dad.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Okay. Okay.

Speaker 2 But a good motivator. He put in some good work habits with you, right? And some thirst for excellence and winning and all that stuff.
And you pointed it towards restaurants.

Speaker 3 Well, I mean, it sort of became pathological, right? Of like the need to work harder, be better, practice more, yeah.

Speaker 2 But I saw, but you, but that's why I brought it up. You can see it in your, in your work and your drive.

Speaker 2 Like you have, you're very focused, even though you do a lot of, your focus requires you to look in a lot of directions,

Speaker 2 you still harness a lot of stuff at the same time, which is not easy to do. You know, it's a lot of restaurants, a lot of businesses.
It takes a lot of determination and a lot of

Speaker 2 discipline, frankly.

Speaker 3 I've been lucky and I've been surrounded by, and this is not me being modest, I just have really great people and I get way too much credit

Speaker 3 for all the things that happen. And I don't even cook in the restaurants really anymore.
So, you know,

Speaker 3 I just, I don't know. And when I look back at everything that's happened, it's hard for me to believe that we did all that, you know?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

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Speaker 2 Hey, so on cooking, on, you know, what does it take to be the best chef or one of the best? Obviously, you need to have great taste, no pun intended.

Speaker 2 Have you noticed that you are a better chef in one country versus another country based on how you like to cook? Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 No, it does make sense. And it's exactly that.
Every country, and I wouldn't even say every country around the world, even places in America are very different.

Speaker 3 Like

Speaker 3 just for salt, for example. In Toronto, I feel that people wants less salt in their food.
New York always wants more salt in their food.

Speaker 3 And in Japan, you think with all the soy sauce, it'd be very salty. No, they want it sort of at bare minimum salt in a lot of the food.
That's not, say, ramen or something like that.

Speaker 3 But in terms of the cuisine and the technique,

Speaker 3 it's certainly beneficial, I think, to be in America where it is sort of this amalgamation of different immigrants and different techniques. So if you say, you know, or chef in.

Speaker 3 you know, Milan or Florence, Italy, it's hard to know the world because you're only cooking Italian food. Right.
Right. And that is a benefit and a sort of a negative simultaneously.

Speaker 2 Have you noticed what city or what area, what region is more

Speaker 2 demands and more sort of

Speaker 2 healthier ingredients? Can you actually determine that?

Speaker 2 Is there a clientele that seems like it wants something more stripped down than other places?

Speaker 3 For sure. I think it depends on the customer.
Like the people that go to Soul Cycle, you know, that they're going to, I mean, you can almost like make a menu exactly for them, right?

Speaker 3 The typecasting of the kinds of food that people are going to like

Speaker 3 for sure. And the funny thing with LA, you think people eat healthier.
They do. They eat healthy lunches.
I find that a lot of people skip breakfast and they eat like total shit for dinner.

Speaker 3 And with ride-sharing,

Speaker 3 people get fucking shit-faced now.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Where they didn't used to.
You're right.

Speaker 3 No. It's been great for restaurants.

Speaker 1 You know, when you see, like, I had this doctor once when I saw him at this bar and he was smoking. And I thought, that was the craziest thing I've ever seen, a doctor smoking.

Speaker 1 And when I've seen you or chefs on certain shows just eating literally anything they want, I was like, yeah, because what I love about food is everyone has a different relationship to it, right?

Speaker 1 Everyone is constantly thinking about it. And like, should I eat more of this, less of this, and the guilt associated with eating something you know is horrible for you, but tastes great.

Speaker 1 Like, how much or how little should we listen to that guilt? Or how much or how little do you listen to that guilt? Because part of it feels like I want what I want because it pleases me.

Speaker 1 However, I know that what pleases me isn't good for my body. Therefore, I eat it, but I'm miserable.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 3 Right. You know, I think like most things, when you're younger, you can sort of eat anything.
And I remember first tasting like foie gras or something like that, which is just fat.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But it's so good.

Speaker 3 But at some point, it all catches up with you. And

Speaker 3 I find that the older chefs get, the less they want to eat the stuff that they actually make.

Speaker 2 Oh, really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Getting back to the ride sharing thing, have you noticed that in Los Angeles since Uber and Lyft and all that stuff came into play that the restaurant business increased because if for no other reason, just the alcohol consumption could happen.

Speaker 2 Like in New York, I would imagine people have been making money on alcohol for years because you're jumping in a cab. But in LA, you always have to factor in that long drive home.
Now no longer.

Speaker 2 Has the money gone up?

Speaker 3 I mean, yes, before COVID, 100%.

Speaker 3 And that was a real boon for the industry because that's how you make money, really, in any kind of restaurant business is beverages and yeah you know bottle of wine or several cocktails adds up and again if you are eating in la

Speaker 3 more often than not before ride sharing most people wouldn't indulge with that second third or fourth drink they'd have maybe one and that would be it right yeah yeah you you brought up covid um

Speaker 2 what is it yeah i guess what is it is the sorry let me just that's a

Speaker 2 notes no like a noodles place just the

Speaker 2 our list Obviously, COVID has completely changed not just restaurants, but the economy and how we do everything. What do you think the future of restaurants is going to be post-COVID?

Speaker 2 Do you have a prediction?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I do. And

Speaker 3 it's not a good one. I just spoke with Senator Gillibrand to a bunch of, I don't even know who the hell was on the Zoom call, but I've been saying this since March, and it has not been a popular take.

Speaker 3 And I wish I wasn't right, but I said I think that 90% of all independent restaurants will close without intervention from the government. And I think I'm right.
I think maybe it's 85%, 90%.

Speaker 2 Is that because the occupancy limitations?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, it's 25% depending on like New York is 25% indoors. Las Vegas is say 50%.
I think California is 25% still. Everything's the same.
The economics are still the same.

Speaker 3 The fixed costs haven't changed. And I'll tell you, if you're not 100% occupancy for a restaurant, you're losing money.
Right. Wow.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I heard Tom Clicchio say this, kind of pitch this thing on the Bill Marshall.

Speaker 1 Tom had suggested, like, he had this whole idea of why when this happened, when this pandemic happened, didn't the government utilize all the restaurant businesses to feed people to then keep the restaurant businesses, the economy going that way when there was all of these shortages at farms and with milk and

Speaker 1 produce and meats. I thought it was a great idea.

Speaker 3 No, it's an idea that was certainly floated and the government, not a surprise, they decided not to do it because.

Speaker 2 Sean, don't get pissed off. Don't get pissed off.

Speaker 3 I thought this was a real opportunity. I thought you could have had Susie the Saussier in 2020 and getting subsidized by the government to do something that communities needed.

Speaker 3 And it just hasn't happened.

Speaker 1 I always wanted to ask somebody like you,

Speaker 1 an incredibly accomplished chef, like...

Speaker 1 We always want to know what you eat and what you like.

Speaker 1 And because these guys know that I'd literally do anything anybody wanted for a free milkshake or cookie and if you had to eat the same thing yeah or a cookie or a cookie

Speaker 1 cake or if you had to eat the same thing for a week what what would it be like what is your just

Speaker 2 if you had if you had to pick something how but a donut sean same thing for one week yeah i don't know man or what okay then forget that what's i'd probably choose like fried chicken i guess okay you know sorry david you shouldn't know the reason he's asking is because he quite literally eats a tuna sandwich with plain chips every day for lunch.

Speaker 2 Keep going.

Speaker 3 Is that real?

Speaker 2 On a paper plate. Go ahead.

Speaker 1 Yeah, almost every day. Or a peanut butter sandwich.

Speaker 3 Well, wait, tell me about this tuna sandwich. Yeah.
Are you making this tuna sandwich yourself or are you buying it from like a deli?

Speaker 1 Great question. Both, but I make it most of the time.
I just put the tuna, the canon. What kind of tuna?

Speaker 2 What kind of tuna?

Speaker 3 Are you using spring water or olive oil?

Speaker 2 Water. No oil.
No oil.

Speaker 3 That's not a good thing. Number one.

Speaker 2 You lose there. That's gross.

Speaker 1 What do you mean? No, because I put mayonnaise in it and celery and that's it.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but even still, spring water tuna. That's come on.
You got to change it up.

Speaker 2 Let me ask you this.

Speaker 1 Is there too much mercury in tuna?

Speaker 3 I don't know that answer.

Speaker 2 Well, then we got to go.

Speaker 2 Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Like, walk us through it, Sean.
This is a great line.

Speaker 2 So, because David wants to know, because David, this is this is his area of, so you watch, so you're like, Scotty, I'm going to make some lunch.

Speaker 2 And so you, you slip, slip, slip into the kitchen, listen to your slippers.

Speaker 2 Right?

Speaker 2 Sorry.

Speaker 2 And you're like, creak. And you're like, somebody gets a fucking WD-40 in here.
The fucking closet is still creaking. So then you take out a can of tuna.
What do you got? You got the.

Speaker 1 I usually do two, star-kissed, yeah.

Speaker 2 Shoot cans. Yeah.
Two cans. Well, because you're exercising a lot, probably.

Speaker 2 So you've got the two cans.

Speaker 2 You've got the two cans of Star-Kissed tuna. Yeah, and water.

Speaker 2 And then you do the thing and you just by hand,

Speaker 2 one of those little automatic.

Speaker 1 No, it's a hand thing.

Speaker 2 Okay, it's a hand thing. And it's Miracle Whip.

Speaker 1 It's

Speaker 2 uh bring out the best foods and bring out the best best foods we don't need the jingle just the brand best foods mayonnaise okay and then and then you chop how much mayonnaise how much mayonnaise a lot all you can handle

Speaker 2 a lot okay that's the only good thing i've heard so far okay and so

Speaker 2 and the celery and i have to i have to eat it with celery texture now see but now a great chef will think about what the size of those celery cuts are going to be correct david Correct Jason you are very accurate so so so now we know this David what would you do if you if it occurred to you that you wanted to make a tuna salad sandwich how would you go about it and for real how would you make it different well I wouldn't use uh tuna in spring water because I think it's just too bland you might as well eat a like drink a soylent shake at that point

Speaker 3 I'm open to

Speaker 3 I mean I just think the olive oil is is better and better tasting and there's better brands not to be a total fucking snob there's better brands of canned tuna as well be a snob be a snob so i would i'd probably do that although downstairs i probably have some sun kissed as well and then sar kissed you got a two-story house there

Speaker 3 or is it a basement is it a basement i've brunois some onions like i'd finally dye some onions and some celery and then i probably add a little bit more lemon juice and then i do mayonnaise i didn't use best foods i'd use a mayonnaise called qp which is from japan

Speaker 3 and i do some salt and pepper and maybe a little bit of agave for sweetness to bring it out. Wow.

Speaker 2 That's a whole new level of some sweetness. Now, here's...
What kind of bread would you put it on, David? Sorry, just to. We're going to flash toast the bread.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I would toast the bread a little bit. Maybe a multi-grain type of chicken.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Would you put butter on that, on that toast? Shut the hell up.
Unnecessary. So,

Speaker 2 David. No, Sean.

Speaker 2 No. David.
David.

Speaker 2 This is my problem with cooking. You've just described a 45-minute process for a five-minute sandwich.
And that's why I don't cook. Well, no.
That's why. That's well, it's not why.

Speaker 2 Main reason. And then, and then, and then 20 minutes to clean.

Speaker 3 Everything I just said, I can make in under five minutes. Wow.

Speaker 2 See?

Speaker 2 So, David, I want to swing back. I'm not a swinger, but I.
Swing back to what, golf?

Speaker 2 I wanted to swing back. No, I want to swing back to something you were talking about, playing golf with your dad.
And your dad actually, did your dad partner with you

Speaker 2 in your first restaurant? He did. Is that true?

Speaker 3 Yeah, there was a lot of family drama going on, and I obviously had a contentious relationship with my dad.

Speaker 2 Here we go. Let's tuck into this.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I want to know that.

Speaker 2 Grab it. You have any alcohol there, David? Just start sipping.
We're going to get you crying in about 20 minutes.

Speaker 3 He never said, like, I love you or anything. Very stern Asian father.

Speaker 3 And there was a lot of shit going on personally and in my family.

Speaker 1 Is your dad still with us?

Speaker 3 No, he's not. He passed away recently.

Speaker 2 Sorry about that. I'm sorry.
It's all good.

Speaker 3 And I remember being like, a lot of my friends were going to graduate school.

Speaker 2 And I was like, fuck it.

Speaker 3 I saw how much money I might need to start this restaurant. I was like, it's cheaper than graduate school.

Speaker 3 And then I also remember being, well, if I'm 26 years old and I have to declare bankruptcy, then that's not so bad.

Speaker 2 But you didn't lead with that, with your conversation with your dad.

Speaker 3 I think I did. I said, listen, I'm doing this with or without you, and I'm going to raise the money.

Speaker 3 I said, you know, and I think he offered and he got three of his friends and they pitched in a loan that I paid back in two years, 125 grand. And I'm very fortunate, very fortunate, obviously.

Speaker 3 But I even got to the point of thinking about doing crazier things, like actually applying to school, using the graduate like money loan, and then bankrolling the school that way.

Speaker 3 I was going to do something crazy.

Speaker 2 That was a lot of pressure then to not only did you know that your dad specifically had his eye on you for excellence and you wanted to make him proud, but now you're asking for his seed money as well um good for you that must have felt great to pay him back and for him to have seen the incredible success you've had uh before he passed did he ever give it up to you about the success you know how he did it he told me a few years back uh stop working so hard

Speaker 1 oh i see did he really yeah that's cool wow that was his way do you have kids now i do i have a 19-month old and so wasn't the blessing in disguise to have a father like that so you can just shower shower your kid with tons and tons of love?

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's been amazing. I'm definitely the father that I'm not.

Speaker 1 What if you were like, no, I'm exactly the same way and I don't want to receive my kid?

Speaker 2 You get into that, into fatherhood before, you know, in ugly, delicious, I think it's season two in the first episode when you find out that it reveals that you and your wife are expecting a baby boy.

Speaker 2 And you really, one of the great things about that show was it wasn't just about food.

Speaker 2 It was about how food kind of connects us and how what food, the role it's played in your life and how it's connected you to your family and was connecting you to your new family and i was really really moved by that episode um the way you talk to your mom and your sister and your mother-in-law and your wife and then you kind of go investigate other people and you talk to other restaurateurs about their relationship i forget that restaurant in in oregon your your friend has that cool restaurant yeah peter peter's restaurant what's it called oak

Speaker 2 yeah and he lives there he lives on one side of the restaurant and and then it's kind of like there's just like a wall separating the kitchen and his kitchen.

Speaker 2 And I just love the way that you, there are, because I feel the same way that there is no division. We can't put our lives into these different boxes.

Speaker 2 It's all one big soup, you know, and these lives that we live, thank you, or stew.

Speaker 2 Soup better, soup better. No, no, goa stew, goa stew.
I'm not married to soup, but

Speaker 2 I could go either way. Broth, broth.

Speaker 2 Broth is good, yeah, because broth was cleaner to

Speaker 2 it.

Speaker 2 That's in your show, show too about how broth is like a such a huge, but I just love the way that you broke that down that like it's all connected in the way that we live our lives and that we can't compartmentalize and that it's all just like this big.

Speaker 2 And I was really impressed with your connection to family and how important it was to you.

Speaker 2 And I wonder now, you know, now meeting you, because you were so nervous about becoming a dad and you were so honest about it. And

Speaker 2 I remember your mom saying that you were going to be great parents. She said your wife was going to be even better.
Well, yeah, that's what she said.

Speaker 3 The only reason I'd be a good parent was because of my wife.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know.

Speaker 2 I'm glad to see you're still mad about that. But

Speaker 2 did all your dreams come true? Did it happen the way you thought it would?

Speaker 3 Being a dad has been amazing. And I think it's been the only highlight of quarantine because my son's not old enough to go to school and drive me crazy.

Speaker 3 Being a dad's been amazing because all I did was work or go out and have just do whatever I wanted to do.

Speaker 3 And I never intended to think that I would ever have a family or I thought I'd just be a bachelor my entire life. And still thinking about it?

Speaker 2 Options always there.

Speaker 3 But like being a dad has caused me to being a husband has, I think, caused me and forced me, not forced, I think I've willingly tried to be better and to grow up.

Speaker 3 I think it's taken me a long time to decide to grow up instead of being a fucking jerk.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Is that what made you nervous about the prospect of being a parent, about the sort of responsibility that would immediately come or was it more tied into sort of like your experience as a child there was that you know i i definitely didn't want to raise my future child the way i was raised but i wanted to be present i wanted to i didn't know how it would affect how i worked right yeah um and that was my big concern is how do i find a division between work and life and you know that's something i'm still trying to figure out yeah you know even when my son was born in pre-COVID, right, I, I travel a lot, right?

Speaker 3 Whether it's filming TV or the restaurants or whatever shit I got to do. I mean, I think it's like probably five, almost a little over five months a year.
I'm on the road.

Speaker 3 And even when I am at home working, you know, it's, I see you in the morning and I'll see you the next morning.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 and I think that's how a lot of my friends that were now in LA, most of my friends in New York saw their kids.

Speaker 3 You know, they're with their nannies or somebody that's looking after the the kids, but their parents are working. And, you know, I just was like, man, I want to be a dad.

Speaker 3 That's literally my number one job. I want to be good at is be a dad.

Speaker 3 Like that, if you ask me what you care about the most, obviously I want to make sure that I can financially take care of my family and the people that work for me and the company.

Speaker 3 But I think overall, my priority when I found out my wife was pregnant was, I want to be something that I think I'm going to be terrible at, which is being a dad.

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Speaker 1 Are you still enjoying the entrepreneurialship of opening multiple restaurants? Like, does it still excite you, invigorate you, get you out of bed in the morning?

Speaker 3 I mean, yeah, it changes.

Speaker 3 It changes. It's this post-COVID world, we'll see what happens, right? But two years ago, I stepped down as CEO and

Speaker 3 we have other people in place for the culinary decisions. If anything, I feel like I'm just like a guidance counselor.
So I've been focusing a lot more on media, so I can't.

Speaker 2 It does sound lucrative, though. This is why we have the two-story house, guys.
So, sorry, keep going, David. He didn't say two.
It could be three. He might have been two.
He's been multiple stories.

Speaker 2 Good point.

Speaker 3 So, you know, that's where I'm at, is I don't know.

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 we're facing some challenging times. And I always say, again, I'm never going to do another restaurant.
And yet I always do another goddamn restaurant.

Speaker 2 Yeah, what would be the natural progression for somebody like yourself?

Speaker 1 And to piggyback on that, is there something else

Speaker 1 you dreamed of doing ever?

Speaker 3 You know,

Speaker 3 these are really hard-pressing questions for me right now.

Speaker 2 Well, this is a tough, listen, we asked the hardest. No one told me you guys would be fucking this hard.
Smartlices. We need an answer.
Well, we make Leslie Stowe look easy, okay?

Speaker 2 I'm out of here.

Speaker 3 I think for me, career-wise, just like what I want to cook is very different.

Speaker 3 And I'm trying to find some metaphor analogy, but I just...

Speaker 3 While I always care about eating in a fancy restaurant, all these things, like now I just want to cook or make things that are just wholesome and pure, like a sandwich or a piece of pizza.

Speaker 3 I don't want the artistry.

Speaker 1 Like a tuna sandwich.

Speaker 3 Even a tuna sandwich, right? I care more about not about winning awards or I just want to do something that is good, simple as that.

Speaker 2 And I don't care about winning awards either. That's why I never win them.
Because I'm like, you know what? I don't want them.

Speaker 2 Yeah, currently the

Speaker 2 big awards go to those places that design a plate that

Speaker 2 almost doesn't even look like food, right?

Speaker 3 The artistry of it the way that it's all it's like an oscar film you know like best picture there's a certain film you know

Speaker 3 that's not necessarily populist um but it's it's complicated i get it and i think i've always wanted to be something that's populist but even still now i just would rather serve a bowl of chili yeah you know what i mean like that to me is more appealing both in taste and how someone might consume it you know do you have a restaurant that's kind of lo-fi like that um yeah but it's still not exactly where it could go And I don't even think it could be a restaurant, right?

Speaker 3 The kind of food that I personally, and the thing is, I'm making more food now at home than ever before.

Speaker 2 What about like a diner? What do you do with your leftovers? And just give me your address real quick.

Speaker 1 Give it outside.

Speaker 2 I'd be good for leftovers, David.

Speaker 3 But my restaurants are hard, man. They're so goddamn hard.

Speaker 2 Where do you stand on design or do you just punt that to a partner?

Speaker 3 I mean, originally, I didn't care about design or service.

Speaker 2 It's true.

Speaker 3 Like, if you talk to anybody about the restaurants, our restaurants were like jail cells. Very minimal, no comforts, very loud music and very much in your face, young and obnoxious.

Speaker 3 And it was very punk rock in some ways without being punk, right? And I liked the hard challenge and I wanted to win someone over with nothing but the food.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Going back to what I was at, like, is there something completely outside of the culinary world that you always dreamed of doing or you would want to kind of dabble in?

Speaker 2 Sean has it.

Speaker 3 Sean has, he has to ask that question I want to pitch you some ideas yeah he can't he can't not ask that question because I'm always interested in what other people are interested in other than the thing they're known for well I'm sort of doing that you know I I'm I'm I'm like sort of trying to figure out what that is I'm still will always be related with food I think we're making a bunch of consumer product goods like sauces and salts and stuff.

Speaker 3 We're going to get into the hard goods business. And part of this is, how should I phrase this? I I like to do things that people think are stupid, right? Or like, it's not cool.

Speaker 2 Go on.

Speaker 3 And if you ask a lot of chefs or even like a younger version of me, would you sell pots and pans or fucking a line of sauces?

Speaker 2 I'd be like, what a fucking sellout.

Speaker 3 In some ways, it's like, how do you turn that?

Speaker 3 Yes, it's maybe selling out, but how do you make it awesome sometimes?

Speaker 2 Well, you could put in the component of like Paul Newman, where he sort of became somewhat philanthropic by selling salad dressing. He kind of dig dung.
You can give all his money away.

Speaker 2 Listen, let me just tell you this.

Speaker 2 David, there's no such thing as selling out. There's only buying in.

Speaker 2 Okay.

Speaker 2 Full stop. Wait, you talk about all these places to go.
Where do you like to go? I mean, all things being equal and, you know, without COVID, et cetera.

Speaker 2 When you're sitting at home and it's like

Speaker 2 you look at your watch and you look at your wife and you're like, let's go. I really want to have something that's satisfying and going to make me feel good.

Speaker 2 Where do you, what's the first place you think of?

Speaker 3 In New York, it's a sushi restaurant called Shuko uh in in uh downtown in like sort of the west village it's so good okay you know it's different what streets it on uh i think it's like 12th street between 5th and 6th or greenwich and broadway what about los angeles we're in los angeles huh man that's the thing that la

Speaker 2 there's so many places but really that arts district is sort of where the the the newer spots are which is yeah amazing to me the best of you guys bobble hey jason try to sound older by the way yeah what is it nothing

Speaker 2 That arts district is where all the new kids. Yeah, me and the lady.
Jesus fuck. You know what? Just take yourself out to the shed and kill yourself.
Christ's sake.

Speaker 2 I do not get out, David.

Speaker 2 What about this Spago I've been hearing about?

Speaker 2 There's so many good spots. I went to one time, Matsujisa.
We went and it's not cheap, and it was us, and it was Thoreau and Rashida Jones.

Speaker 2 And we decided to play the credit card roulette, and whoever lost had to pay for the meal. And Thoreau lost, and he was so mad for real that he, because he's, and I'll say this, he's so cheap.

Speaker 2 It's just us talking. It's just us talking, right? He won't be right.

Speaker 2 He doesn't fucking listen to our show. He cries when he orgasms, too, apparently.
He does. Every time.

Speaker 2 Totally does.

Speaker 1 And I'm always there to wipe the tears.

Speaker 2 It's weird.

Speaker 1 Remember when we can,

Speaker 1 remember when we could go out and eat?

Speaker 2 Jesus fuck, Sean. I'm still still recording.

Speaker 2 Can you just up the energy a little bit?

Speaker 1 What about the tower bar? Yeah. What about the tower bar?

Speaker 2 Sean, can you pull the pamphlet into the frames just so we can see? Saddie bring another pill in for you.

Speaker 2 It's almost nine-night time.

Speaker 2 It's five fingers of Chardonnay, the pill, and then he's out.

Speaker 2 And a cup of tuna. I can't wait.
I get excited around this time of day.

Speaker 2 Wait a second. Wait a second.
Before we lose our shit, the last thing, David, I want to ask you about your book.

Speaker 2 Can you talk a little bit about your new book?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Eat a Peach.

Speaker 2 Great song.

Speaker 3 Yeah, fuck, man. It's out.
It's a memoir. You can read about my crazy life.
I don't even understand why it's out there.

Speaker 3 I've been pretending that it didn't happen. That's the easiest way for me to get that.

Speaker 2 The right book, because it's so revelatory. You're so open and honest in it.
So it's kind of like you have to pretend, right, that everybody's not reading about your,

Speaker 2 what you're thinking about.

Speaker 2 Did you read it? Did you read it for an audio book?

Speaker 3 I did. I don't know.
That's why I was like, you guys are so good at doing this shit. I don't know how.

Speaker 3 Of course, I read all the criticism. And

Speaker 2 yeah,

Speaker 3 he shouldn't have read his whole book.

Speaker 2 Never,

Speaker 2 never read, never read any criticism or reviews because if you believe the good ones, you got to believe the bad ones too.

Speaker 2 So are you like avoiding phone calls

Speaker 3 no no i mean it's it's been i think incredibly well received uh we were supposed to it was supposed to come out in may and we had like a 21 city book tour so uh that's not happening but um

Speaker 2 you know i

Speaker 3 it's just weird because i don't know it's not only weird that the book is there it's weird that I'm such a competitive person and I'm like, fuck, you know, I got to beat all these goddamn Trump books.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 All order right now. David, listen, we've taken up too much of your time already.
I can't thank you enough, man. I think you're such a cool dude, and you've done so many amazing things.
And,

Speaker 2 you know, I just wish you nothing but success. And thanks for coming here and giving us your time.

Speaker 1 I'm so glad I met you, David.

Speaker 3 I'm going to make you a tuna fish sandwich now.

Speaker 3 That's what I got to do, Steve.

Speaker 2 I would love to see your version of that.

Speaker 2 By the way, yes, I would kill to taste that. No, I'm serious.

Speaker 3 I'm going to.

Speaker 3 I'm going to get you your info and and I'm going to make you something that hopefully you will enjoy.

Speaker 2 I would kill for that. That's so cool.

Speaker 1 Thank you, David.

Speaker 2 Yeah, leave it outside in the sun for a few hours, and I'll pick it up.

Speaker 2 Thank you for being with us, Pat. Thank you, David.
Thank you, David. See you later, man.

Speaker 3 Thanks, guys.

Speaker 2 I feel like we have a good shot at getting a table inside of a week.

Speaker 2 Instead of a week, the three of us could call and say, like, Sean and Jason and Will want to come in for dinner, and they want it to be gratis. He literally just texted me.

Speaker 2 Right, like we should have, because we're friends. They'll probably throw in the desserts, maybe, right? You think? Maybe? You know me.
I don't like dessert.

Speaker 2 You know how much I love dessert, right? Oh, you know, Angel. I love it so much.
Yeah, I loved him, though.

Speaker 1 He was great.

Speaker 2 He's super normal. Yeah.
Super normal and such a huge family guy.

Speaker 2 And really, I implore our listener to watch second season of Ugly Delicious, episode one, and what he's really struggling with when he finds out that he's going to have a kid it's it's such a beautiful kind of exploration of himself he's really honest about himself he's like I don't know if I'll be any good I think I'm going to be a terrible dad he's really worried will you stop rolling up your sleeve yeah it's so gross

Speaker 2 is just like pulling he's wearing a short sleeve shirt and just pulling up the sleeves and making it a tank top I don't want to look at your dumb guns how are they they're dumb Are they not great?

Speaker 2 Well, I guess they're good. All right, they're fine.
Well, we should probably go. Look at my noodles.
My forearms are bigger than my biceps. What's wrong with me? Yeah, so like a ramen noodle.

Speaker 2 Just like a really take a photo of it, Insta.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 2 he doesn't Insta.

Speaker 2 You don't have an Instagram yet, do you? He does. Is he talking about take an instant picture? Instagram.
Like a polar room?

Speaker 1 Well, post. Take a picture of him, post it.

Speaker 2 Jason. Take it to the post office.
Oh, God.

Speaker 2 Jesus. The longest bit.
Well, let me just see how many stabs I've got left because I did a lot of mailing already today.

Speaker 2 I mailed my wife a letter. She's right next to me.

Speaker 1 But the journey was incredible.

Speaker 2 I mail her a letter every day to let her know I love her. All right, we should probably kick it.
I guess, yeah, we should wrap it up. Love, David.
Love, David. Yeah.

Speaker 2 The other thing is,

Speaker 2 smart,

Speaker 2 smart,

Speaker 2 false.

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