The Transformative Power of Wonder & How Money REALLY Works - SYSK Choice

Save big during Labor Day at Lowe's.

Get up to 40% off.

Select major appliances.

Plus, buy more to get up to an additional 20% off.

Shop even more savings with three stay-green, one-cubic-foot vegetable and flower garden soil bags for $10.

This Labor Day, take care of your home for less at Lowe's.

We help.

You save.

Valent293.

Soil Offer excludes Alaska and Hawaii.

Selection varies by location.

Select locations only.

While supplies last.

See Lowe's.com for more details.

Today, on something you should know, who came up with the idea for sunglasses and when?

Then finding wonder in the world and why it's such a good idea to develop your sense of wonder.

Because it's really an incredibly beneficial emotion, both psychologically and physiologically.

And what's really fascinating to me is there appears to be a direct biological pathway between wonder and better health.

Also, can people really get by on four to five hours of sleep and still perform well?

And what is money?

How does it work?

There's a lot of confusion.

For example, people think the government might run out of money.

We cannot run out of money.

Impossible.

Money is a keystroke credit to an account.

It is a keystroke.

You cannot run out of keystrokes.

A bank can't run out of money.

The treasury cannot run out of money.

All this today on something you should know.

You know, it's interesting, if you own or run a business, you're just sort of expected to know how to hire people.

Well, sorry, I've been in that position.

Maybe you have too.

Hiring is a lot harder than it looks, and the results are too high stakes.

When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need.

With Indeed, you don't have to struggle to get your job posts seen on other job sites.

Indeed's sponsored jobs help you stand out so you can hire fast.

With sponsored jobs, your post jumps right to the top of the page for your relevant candidates.

So you reach the right people faster.

Look, if you feel real confident like you can hire someone all on your own and nail it, great.

But it's so much better to have Indeed guide you through the process.

With Indeed sponsored jobs, there are no monthly subscriptions, no long-term contracts.

You just pay for results.

Millions of businesses use Indeed.

In fact, in the minute I've been talking to you, 23 hires were made on Indeed, according to Indeed Data Worldwide.

There's no need to wait any longer.

Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed.

And listeners of this show will get a $75 sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com/slash something.

Just go to Indeed.com slash something right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast.

Indeed.com slash something.

Terms and conditions apply.

Hiring, Indeed is all you need.

Something you should know.

Fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

Hi, welcome to Something You Should Know.

This morning, I woke up to a bright, sunny day, like many people, and as usual, one of the first things I reached for before I head out the door, my sunglasses.

And it made me wonder, where did sunglasses come from?

It turns out that even in prehistoric times, people wore basically sunglasses made out of walrus ivory to block harmful reflected rays of the sun.

The earliest historical reference to sunglasses dates back to ancient China and Rome.

The Roman Emperor Nero apparently liked to watch gladiators fight through polished gems,

kind of like sunglasses.

Around the 12th century, the Chinese came up with wearable dark lenses similar to our sunglasses.

They were made from flat panes of smoky quartz.

Those ancient sunglasses had little to do with the sun, though.

Chinese judges wore them to hide their facial expressions while they interrogated witnesses on trial.

It was Sam Foster of Foster Grand Fame who came up with the sunglasses we wear today.

And in 1929, he started selling his sunglasses from a Woolworth store on the boardwalk in Atlantic City, New Jersey.

And soon after that, they became a sensation.

And that is something you should know.

I'm sure you've heard the phrase, childlike wonder.

It's a way of looking at the world that gives you pause, makes you see things with a different kind of appreciation.

It gives you a perspective on where you fit into the world.

Of course, the thing about childlike wonder is you tend to lose it as you get older.

But seeing wonder in the world is actually a great way to view things.

And wonder has wonderful benefits, as you're about to hear from Monica Parker.

Monica is a speaker, writer, and authority on the future of work.

She has spent decades helping people discover how to lead and live a wonderful life.

And she's author of a book called The The Power of Wonder.

Hi, Monica.

Welcome to Something You Should Know.

Hi, Mike.

Thanks so much for having me.

So what is wonder?

How do you define it from your perspective?

Yeah, so wonder is a fascinating word.

It's sort of something of a shapeshifter.

So we have wonder that is the verb to wonder, which might be how we describe curiosity.

But there's also wonder that's the noun, which would be a catalyst for, say, the emotion of awe.

And so my definition of wonder is really connecting these two concepts into a single emotional experience that starts with openness, moves into curiosity, then absorption, and awe.

And it's really almost even a cycle because each time we experience one of these components, the more likely we are to experience them in the future.

And why would we want to experience them in the first place?

Yeah, because it's really an incredibly beneficial emotion, both psychologically and physiologically.

It makes us more creative, more desirous of studying the world around us.

It makes us more humble, less materialistic, more generous, better community members.

People who are higher in the component elements of wonder

tend to have healthier relationships.

They perform better in school and work.

And what's really, really fascinating to me is the physiological benefits.

What we found is that there appears to be a direct biological pathway between wonder and better health because it lowers what are known as our pro-inflammatory cytokines, which are markers of inflammation and connected to things like heart disease and Alzheimer's.

It also lowers our blood pressure and our cortisol levels, which are our stress hormones.

So really, really positive for us, for both our brains and our minds.

So when I think of wonder, I often think of

you know, the look on a child's face when he sees something for the first time, you know, or Disneyland, a child sees Mickey Mouse and gets up close to him.

And that look on the that to me, that's wonder.

Absolutely.

And that is wonder.

And even one of the things that I like to tell people is to try to approach life like a child.

As a child, they're always adding new experiences and what are known as schemas.

So they're basically building the lens through which they see the world.

And one of the challenges is that as we become adults, we sort of have decided we already have all the information we need.

And we decide that there's not so much wonder to be seen anymore.

But if we can see the world through the eyes of a child, always beginning, almost that Zen precept of to always be beginning, then we are able to recapture that sense of childlike wonder.

Well, yeah, and you hear that phrase, childlike wonder, because

everybody knows exactly what that is.

But what you just said about

that, as you get older and you have a lot of life experiences, it seems as if there are fewer things to be in awe of,

to find wonder in, because, you know, been there, done that.

I've already seen Mickey Mouse a million times.

So it doesn't matter to see him again, doesn't inspire those same feelings.

That does seem to be true that as you get older,

the world is less wonderful.

I can appreciate sort of that take, but the reality is that I think that's a perception that we have because there is so much to feel a sense of wonder about.

And there's no question we can't see Mickey Mouse again for the first time.

We can't see the Grand Canyon for the first time except once.

But what research shows is that we can, if we choose to see it, find wonder in the quotidian.

We can find it in our day-to-day lives.

And that might be just a perfect sunrise or a beautiful autumn leaf.

But really, it's about the lens through which we choose to see the world.

It's about a mindset.

Is it for someone like you who practices this, is it deliberate?

Do you have to stop and say, okay, it's time to find some wonder now?

Or is it more smooth than that?

It just flows?

What the research shows is that if we prime ourselves to find wonder, and it can be a single sentence prime, I'm going to find three things to feel a sense of wonder about today, then our brain will commit greater cognitive resources to finding it.

And so certainly priming can help, but over time, as it becomes a practice, neurons that fire together wire together and we'll start to create these neural pathways where we will recognize wonder more often.

I don't see it as onerous.

I simply see it as another thing that is good for us and fun to do.

Okay, so I'm looking at a sunset and it's a beautiful sunset.

What's the difference?

between looking at the sunset and saying, isn't that a beautiful sunset?

And looking at that sunset and finding wonder in it.

So, one of the main ways is it's something that psychologists call small self.

So, anything that we experience that feels a sense of vastness, and that can be a sense of emotional vastness or cognitive vastness, where we say, Goodness, this makes me feel like a small component part of a bigger system.

That's really how we start to tap into wonder, and that's where we start to get the benefits of wonder, where we get that neuroplasticity, where we start to feel pro-social emotions, which are the helping emotions like compassion and empathy.

And so really, if we have that experience and consider where we as a human connect into this bigger cosmos of the world, that's where we start to feel that sense of wonder.

Okay, but in a very practical way, you're now looking at this beautiful sunset.

What is it that goes through your mind that does what you just said without saying neuroplasticity and other big words like that?

Yeah, it's really just to say this makes me feel small.

This experience is so big that it makes me feel small.

And that idea of small self, to appreciate the immensity of that moment.

and not to become habituated to say, oh, well, there's a sunrise every day.

It's not a big deal.

Instead, to say, look at this incredible opportunity we have for another day.

Look at the beauty, how it changes all the time.

To have that sense of vastness is really where we're able to connect and then say but that makes me feel small and when we feel smaller it makes our problems feel smaller it makes us connect to other people more deeply and so really it's that opportunity to say that I am only a small piece of such a bigger magical puzzle So that's wonder to an experience that makes you feel smaller in reference to what you're in wonder of?

That is probably one of the main components, absolutely, that sense sense of small self.

There are other aspects of it, certainly being absorbed, being fully present, not trying to,

really trying to shut down that chattering mind that we all have.

So, that's one of those things as well.

If we can actually be present in the moment and not be thinking about, well, what's our to-do list for that week?

Other ways we can do that, of course, is by deep curiosity to explore in our own minds, you know, the

cognitive elements or the intellectual elements of what we're experiencing.

But really probably one of the key pieces is that smallness.

But what is the, I mean, I know you mentioned about the benefits of doing this, but

say for example, because I saw this the other day,

you look at like a double rainbow and

it is just

incredible to see.

It's so big and yes, you feel so small compared to this thing.

And then it's gone.

And just like the rainbow disappears,

my experience is over and my life goes back to where it was.

It was a brief moment.

It was a pause.

It was a distraction and it was beautiful.

And wow, it's wonderful.

But so what?

I mean, you know, now it's gone and, you know, now I've got to go pay the bills.

Sure.

And I, you know, there's an expression that says after the ecstasy, the laundry.

There's no question that

there are...

that there's life that we have to deal with and that this is a moment in time.

But there are ways that we can extend and deepen the impact that it has simply by taking time to recognize it while it might not have felt like it changed you the research would show that that does linger that that has a a longer-term benefit than just that moment but also there are other ways that we can help extend that if you were to share that experience with someone else and say i saw this incredible double rainbow then you're basically telling your brain to experience it again if you were to journal about it or write about it, then you would have that additional experience once again.

And so there are ways that we can extend that experience or magnify it.

And there absolutely is research that shows that wonder shared is wonder multiplied.

Because it seems like if I have to now start journaling about my rainbow, like it like it kind of sucks the magic out of it.

It came, it went, that's what makes it so wonderful.

And now if I'm going to have to write a paper about it, it seems less wonderful.

It's not a have to, it's a choice if that's something that helps you connect to it.

Everybody has a different way that they connect to wonder.

And so, if

for you, you want it to be ephemeral, you feel that for you, wonder is something that is rare and fleeting, then that can be the way that you experience wonder.

Those can be your wonder bringers.

For other people, they want to have that experience be multiplied.

And so, they want to share it or they want to journal about it.

And we do do know that having those opportunities to journal or to share it with other people does extend that experience, but it's really very personal.

And so for you, if you want it to be rare and fleeting, then it can be, but it will still have a positive impact.

We're talking about your sense of wonder and all the benefits of developing that sense.

And we're talking with Monica Parker.

She is the author of the book, The Power of Wonder.

I have never been a big clothes shopper, especially online shopping.

Never been my thing.

Yeah, well, except lately.

Now I am a loyal Quince shopper.

I pretty much buy all my clothes from Quince.

I mean, Quince has all the good stuff, high-quality fabrics, classic fits.

And Quince clothes are those staple pieces that you'll reach for over and over again, like cozy cashmere and cotton sweaters from just $50.

I have a couple of their cashmere sweaters.

Breathable flow-knit polos.

Got some of them.

And comfortable lightweight pants for casual and dress-up occasions.

And the best part, everything with Quince is half the cost of similar brands.

You see, they work with top artisans and cut out the middleman.

So you get luxury clothes without the big markup.

So now I'm straying into other parts of their website because they have towels and luggage and cookware and sunglasses and home decor.

that looks great.

I guess what I like about Quince is my taste seems to be their taste.

And I really love their clothes.

I'm wearing a Quince shirt right now that people comment on all the time.

You really should check out their website.

Keep it classic and cool with long-lasting staples from Quince.

Go to quince.com/slash SYSK for free shipping on your order and 365-day returns.

That's q-u-in-ce.com/slash sysk to get free shipping and 365-day returns.

quince.com slash sysk

you chose to hit play on this podcast today.

Smart Choice.

Progressive loves to help people make smart choices.

That's why they offer a tool called AutoQuote Explorer that allows you to compare your progressive car insurance quote with rates from other companies.

So you save time on the research and can enjoy savings when you choose the best rate for you.

Give it a try after this episode at progressive.com.

Progressive casualty insurance company and affiliates.

Not available in all states or situations.

Prices vary based on how you buy.

So, Monica, one of the things about Wonder that I really enjoy is not only, it's not just the thing that everybody's oohing and ahing about, it's watching the people ooh and awe.

And I think I've mentioned this on another episode, but I remember very distinctly.

There used to be in Long Beach, California, next to the Queen Mary, there used to be Howard Hughes' Spruce Goose Airplane, which he built out of wood in World War II.

I don't remember the story, but

this airplane is so big.

It is so immense, you can't even imagine how big it is unless you see it.

And I was standing at the doorway where people would come around the corner and it would smack them in the face.

And to a person,

I would watch them come around the corner and they would go, Oh my God, oh my God, oh my God,

because they were just in awe of this thing because

no one knew how big it was.

And I just got such a thrill out of watching that.

Kids, grown-ups, everybody would turn the corner and just be in awe.

And you've just perfectly encapsulated how wonder shared is wonder multiplied.

Even though those people perhaps didn't know that they were sharing that experience with you, you were sharing it with them.

And by watching them experience it, you got that little dose of it as if you were experiencing it again for the first time.

And so, I think that's a perfect example of one of the reasons why we love to have these wonder experiences together, why

people go to church as a group, why people like to enjoy music and gigs as a group, because that sense of wonder, that sense of awe, that sense of exploration and discovery can be shared and it has an impact then that is greater than the sum of its parts.

Do you think, though, that when you start to find wonder in lots of things,

that part of wonder, part of the element, one of the elements of wonder is its rarity.

And if you see wonder in everything, then you're not seeing wonder in anything because it's all wonderful.

And I think that I can appreciate why people would think that.

And even the original folks who were studying this, so if we go back to even Maslow, his idea of a peak experience is really a wonder experience.

And Maslow believed that peak experiences were rare and fleeting, but towards the end of his life, he believed that in fact we could find them quite frequently.

Some of the all researchers also in the beginning believed that awe was always only rare and fleeting, but now they've found that those rare and fleeting moments can have the same benefit as these quotidian moments because it almost becomes aggregated.

aggregated.

It's these little moments that add to each other and can still have the same impact.

And so again, it's about shifting the lens and saying it doesn't only have to be that.

If that's your choice, it can be.

But what I want to encourage people to do is really instead to have a mindset in which we can find it anywhere.

Do is there been any research do you find that

It seems like as people age that it wonder becomes less a part of their life.

It's just it's it's because it has to be more deliberate because you things are fewer things are new and exciting.

And

is that true?

I mean,

it is absolutely true.

It's true for a couple of different reasons.

First, one of the key components of wonder being curiosity.

We are naturally less curious as we age.

This is simply, again, because we think that we've discovered everything there is to discover, but of course that's erroneous.

There's so many things we can discover.

But curiosity is a bit like a muscle.

The more more that we practice it the more then that we will be able to experience curiosity so if we can hone that sort of curiosity muscle then we will find more things to feel a sense of wonder about but we are dealing with a more calcified brain we're dealing with you know neural pathways that are very set and we're dealing with more schema building blocks that have decided well i know everything there is to know about the world.

But I think in that there's a little bit of hubris as well, you know, a little bit of ego to say, well, I've seen it all.

But of course, if we, again, approach things with the eyes of a child, we can find those elements to feel a sense of wonder about.

But there's no question that it is harder, that it is for children.

And that's one of the reasons why I believe we feel such a sense of wonder watching children experience those things for the first time.

It's why we get so much joy watching babies and children, you know, have those experiences.

Generally, I think when people think of wonder, they think of it in a very positive way.

But it seems like you can find wonder in negative situations, sad situations.

It's not all positive and wonderful.

You can find wonder in the bad, too.

And that sense of mixed emotion.

Another one of those is nostalgia is a mixed emotion where we can reflect back and consider both the positive and negative.

And it's really positive.

It's beneficial for us.

There was a piece of research done where widows and widowers, if they reflected on their deceased loved one and remembered both the positive and negative elements of their relationship, they were more resilient.

They were better able to manage their grief.

And so what we know is if we choose to receive both the positive and negative, as opposed to sort of a toxic positivity pushing always towards being happy, then that gives us a greater, what's known as hemo diversity.

It means that we have a better portfolio of emotions to access.

And that's really helpful for us.

And so what you're talking about is sort of this mixed emotion where there's a little bit of a poignancy of remembrance, of happiness, but also of struggle and sadness.

And having those two at the same time is really, really helpful.

It also shows that it makes us more tolerant people because we're able to see nuance in the world as opposed to everything being black and white, happy or sad.

At the very beginning of our conversation, you said that there are some real benefits to finding wonder in life, health benefits.

And so, how much wonder do you have to find?

How much wonder do you have to see to get those benefits?

What the research says is that it doesn't actually take that much.

There's some experiments that have been done where people looked up just at a grove of trees for two or three minutes and they were able to have benefits.

Or people watched drone footage of something that was awe-inspiring and they were able to have benefits that lasted for several days.

A 20-minute wonder walk gives people benefits for up to a week after.

And so it really can have a significant benefit.

And, you know, what makes a wonder walk a wonder walk?

Again, you decide it is.

You simply choose to not ruminate on what's going on outside of that walk.

And you prime yourself to say, I will find something on this walk that will give me a sense of wonder.

I will look for things that give me a sense of wonder.

And that can give significant benefits.

And so it really, the additive, small aggregate moments of wonder that we have over time can impact us in a way that I think we really don't appreciate.

Well, this is such a great topic for conversation because people don't typically talk about it very much.

I mean, we all have a sense of what wonder is and we've all experienced it, but we don't talk about it much about how it works and why it's good for you and what it does for you.

So I appreciate this.

I've been speaking with Monica Parker and the name of her book is The Power of Wonder.

And you will find a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.

Thank you, Monica.

Thanks so much, Mike.

It's been wonderful.

Hey, Fidelity.

How can I remember to invest every month?

With the Fidelity app, you can choose a schedule and set up recurring investments in stocks and ETFs.

Huh, that sounds easier than I thought.

You got this.

Yeah, I do.

Now, where did I put my keys?

You will find them where you left them.

Investing involves risk, including risk of loss.

Fidelity Brokerage Services LLC member NYSE SIPC.

Heather is a nurse practitioner from United Healthcare.

We meet patients wherever they live.

During a house call, she found Jack had an issue.

Jack's blood pressure was dangerously high.

It was 217 over 110.

So they got Jack to the hospital and got him the help he needed.

He had had a stamp placed in his heart, preventing a massive heart attack.

If it wasn't for my guardian angel, I wouldn't be here.

Hear more stories like Jack's at unitedhealthcare.com.

Benefits, features, and/or devices vary by plan, area, limitation, and exclusions apply.

I think there's a lot of confusion about money, what it is, how it works.

It used to be that you knew you had a dollar because you could hold it in your hand.

But today, much of the money we spend and receive, we never see it.

We never touch it.

Also, we often hear in political arguments that if we don't do something, the federal government will run out of money.

But it never seems to run out of money.

And what about taxes?

You might think that we have taxes to fund the government, but there's more to it than that, as you're about to hear from L.

Randall Ray.

He is a professor of economics at Bard College and senior scholar at the Levi Economics Institute.

And he is author of a book called Money for Beginners, an illustrated guide.

Hi, Randall.

Welcome to something you should know.

So, what is money?

How do you define money?

That's the big question that I've been trying to answer

in writing for the past 30 years.

You know, what is money?

So most people will say, oh, well, you know, it's coins, it's paper money, and it's something I use to go buy stuff.

Okay,

and so that's sort of a functional approach.

What do I use when I go buy stuff?

Increasingly, you don't use coins or paper money.

You flash or you tap a piece of plastic on a reader, and that's how you buy stuff.

So

I think that we need to get away from this notion that money is something we can get our hands on.

If you go back in time,

actually,

most market activity, as far back as we go, took place on the basis of credit and debit.

And really that,

I think, is how we should look at money.

Money is

a credit in your hands, and it's somebody's debt.

And so I think of money as being a debt denominated, that is, measured, kept track of, in terms of a money of account.

In the United States, that is the the dollar.

Well, and you're right that money, we think of money as like our money is in the bank, and we could go get it.

But if you have a couple hundred thousand dollars in the bank, you can't go down to your local bank and say, Can I have my money?

They probably don't have that much in that bank.

Yeah, if you've ever seen the safe door open, you look in there,

they couldn't possibly have the money in there.

They may have hundreds of millions of dollars of deposits of their customers, and they certainly do not keep that money in the safe.

So where is it?

Well, it's neither here nor there.

It's electronic entries on a computer hard drive.

That's what it is.

It's a record of what the bank owes you.

That's what your checking account deposit is.

It's just a record of what the bank owes you.

And when you make a payment to someone, your bank will debit your account and credit the account of whoever is receiving your payment.

So it's just a series of credits and debits.

It's all accounting.

So the money that we use, that we trade with each other and we buy things with, is the government's money.

Why is it the government's job to make money?

Well,

so I can say a lot about the government's money.

But first, you can create money.

You can take a piece of paper and write, I owe you $5.

You have just created money.

Money is the record of a debt.

You have just put yourself in debt.

I owe you $5.

Now, can you find someone to accept it?

If so,

you really have created money.

And probably your mom would take it.

Maybe some of your good friends would take it.

So the problem is, for you, the acceptability of your IOU

is pretty narrow.

When a bank writes, I owe you $5,

that's going to be accepted almost everywhere, in part because

we've got the government standing behind it in several different ways.

Your checking account is the bank's IOU.

The bank creates this,

we could say, out of thin air.

It is just a keystroke credit to your deposit account.

They can create money.

So we often hear in politics people talking about the debt, the country's debt, and that we have too much debt, that the country will run out of money, that we will not be able to pay our bills.

And that if we just print more money, then we get inflation.

And

that we are printing money on the backs of our children because they will have to deal with this debt in the future.

Yeah, there are three

misunderstandings in that statement.

First, we cannot run out of money.

Period.

Impossible.

Money is a keystroke credit to an account.

It's just a credit.

It is a keystroke.

You cannot run out of keystrokes.

As long as there is one person left at the Fed with one finger, they can keystroke some more credits.

Okay?

So that is just simply false.

It's propaganda, really,

trying to scare people.

We cannot run out of money.

A bank can't run out of money, and the central bank can't run out of money.

The treasury cannot run out of money.

They can always make all payments as they come due.

Now,

can the government or the private sector spend too much and cause inflation, which will reduce the value of the money?

Yes, that can happen.

Okay?

If we create too much money

and spend too much

so we're trying to buy

more goods and services than our economy can produce or that we could import,

then prices can be pushed up.

You can get inflation.

So that could be a danger.

When we look, say, 10 years into the future, 20 years into the future, we are an aging society.

That means we will have relatively more

old people on Social Security

compared to young people who are workers

or children of workers who will become workers.

So the question will be 10, 20, 30 years out in the future, will we be able to produce enough real goods and services to take care of all the retirees

plus the people of working age plus the children.

Now on all reasonable projections

of what

we think the nation's productive capacity will be, I can assure you that the estimates are we will be able to do that.

We're going to be productive enough to take care of all the young, all the old, and everybody in between.

And since we can't run out of money, we'll be able to afford it.

But every year when the government spends more money than it makes,

there is a deficit, and that deficit gets added to the debt.

And doesn't eventually, someday, somehow, somebody have to pay that back.

There is this great fear that if the U.S.

government runs a deficit this year,

deficits add to debt.

So over the course of this year, if the government spent $500 billion more than it received in taxes, that will add $500 billion to the national debt, which is somewhere north of $30 trillion right now.

We would add $500 billion more.

And some people say, well, this can't go on forever.

You can't have...

the outstanding debt grow

year after year.

Well, if you look at the past 200 and something

years

since the founding of the nation, the debt has grown steadily.

It has grown faster than GDP, which is our measure of national output.

The debt ratio has grown

over that period at a rate of 2% per year.

It's gone on for over 200 years.

The notion that something that has been going on for 200 years can't go on a while longer just boggles the mind.

We will

be able to grow the debt.

Now,

households and firms at some point

need to repay their debts.

They have

finite lifetimes and hopefully by the time you die, you're going to pay off your debt.

The U.S.

government doesn't have a finite lifetime.

It has been around for over 200 years and maybe it'll be around 200 more years.

It doesn't actually ever repay the debt.

The debt grows year after year.

All that happens is that when a bond matures, so if you have a 10-year bond at the end of 10 years, it will mature and the holder can present it to the government and say, I want cash.

The government will say, fine, we'll give you the cash.

And then the government will just issue another 10-year bond and sell it to someone else.

That's what happens.

The debt doesn't get repaid, it gets rolled into new debt.

This has been going on for 200 years.

Well, then, why then?

Because I'm having trouble, and I think people have trouble understanding what you're saying.

Let's take money off the table and let's just say

we trade in Mona Leases.

And there's only one, but we could make more.

As you say, the government can make more money.

Well, if you make a lot of Mona Lisas, the value of those Mona Lisas becomes declines.

Because if there's only one, it's really valuable.

If there's a million of them, they're not so valuable.

So, how can you just keep printing money and say that there's no real consequence to that?

The debt, government's debt,

is our asset.

Okay?

If the government issues a $100

bond,

that will be held in the non-government sector by banks, by household savers.

by pension funds,

and by private firms that want to hold the safest asset in the world, which is U.S.

Treasury bonds.

That is the safest asset you can possibly put in your portfolio.

And

you have to remember that if the outstanding debt is 30 trillion,

that means

we,

all of us taken together, have $30 trillion of the safest asset in the world.

We are happy to hold that

and we get to earn interest on it.

It doesn't reduce the value of that debt.

A $100

bond will remain worth $100

and it will earn interest for us.

So I get the bond thing that the government's debt is our asset in that way, but very often The government spends money and says, we need to raise taxes in order to pay for this.

There's no bond involved.

It's tax money that comes straight out of my pocket, into the government's pocket.

That's not my asset.

Taxes reduce our net income.

That is true.

And there are times when you want the government to do that.

No, there really isn't.

I don't mean you as an individual.

No, nobody likes paying taxes.

Okay, that's clear.

But what I'm saying is there are times when it is in the national interest

to increase taxes.

And that is

related to your point.

That withdraws net income from the non-government sector and reduces inflation pressure.

So, for example, let's go back to World War II.

We're coming out of the Great Depression.

We know that we're going to devote a huge portion of our nation's productive capacity to the war effort.

It turns out we devoted 50%

of all output went to the war effort.

We had to make a transition from a peacetime economy with a very small defense sector, very little military spending, to a massive buildup of our defense sector.

And taxes played a very important role in doing that.

So we increased taxes, not because the government needs the money, and I can tell you, the government knew this.

The purpose of the tax was not to give the government money because the government can always create the money.

It can't

create enough output.

We had to reduce private consumption.

We needed the tires to go to the military, not to civilian cars.

And so we reduced people's take-home pay by increasing taxes.

In addition, we said, let's get people to save.

Let's promote patriotic saving.

Let's sell war bonds.

And there was a huge campaign.

to convince people to buy the war bonds.

Now, did the government need to borrow money from households?

No, of course not.

They knew they didn't need to borrow money.

The government can't run out of money.

What they wanted was households to save instead of spending

so that they didn't compete with the war effort.

So you weren't out there buying tires or nylon stockings.

You were saving in war bonds.

And there were other methods too.

They used wage and price controls.

At the end of the war, we're going to ramp down

all the production for the war effort.

Think of all those factories that were building tanks.

Now we're going to convert those back to civilian use.

Now we want households to spend more.

So that would be the time to lower taxes.

and to get people to spend their accumulated savings so they could cash in their war bonds and start buying consumer goods.

That's exactly what we did.

So you can use tax increases and tax reductions as a way

to first move resources to the government sector and then second, move them back into the private sector.

But my sense is that when taxes go up, they very seldom come down.

Federal taxes, state taxes, municipal taxes,

they never go down.

Okay, we first I want to make clear.

When I was describing government spending, I was talking about the federal government.

State and local governments are very different.

State and local governments really do need tax revenue in order to spend.

State and local governments do not have a central bank to make payments for them.

They really do need taxes and they need to borrow in order to spend.

And 48 of the states require a balanced budget.

So they do not run deficits as a normal operating procedure.

And

states and counties and cities can go bankrupt.

It has happened.

Orange County went bankrupt.

And there are severe consequences.

They're in a very different situation.

than the federal government, which is our currency issuer and cannot run out of U.S.

dollars.

Lastly, what do you see as the future of money?

Well, the future of money is that it will

increasingly

take an electronic form.

Even our paper currency and coins possibly have a very limited future.

Well, I must say I've learned a lot in this conversation, things I did not know before, and I always like doing that.

It's one of the great things about doing this podcast.

I've been speaking with L.

Randall Ray.

He's a professor of economics at Bard College and senior scholar at the Levi Economics Institute.

The name of his book is Money for Beginners, an illustrated guide.

And there's a link to that book in the show notes.

Thank you, Randall, for being here.

Thanks.

It's been a pleasure to be on your show.

We're all supposed to be getting eight hours of solid sleep every night.

That's the general professional consensus.

But what about those people who say they do just fine on only five hours of sleep?

Well, researchers put them to the test.

The volunteer sleepers did their thing in a controlled sleeping environment for two weeks.

Those who slept eight or nine hours did just fine on cognitive testing, but the group who slept just four to six hours flunked.

Their cognitive skill results were impaired to the equivalent of being legally drunk.

The study found that when we get less than eight hours of sleep at night, our attention span and reaction times are the first skills to take a hit.

Even getting seven hours is not enough.

One hour less nightly accumulates over time to a noticeable sleep debt.

And that is something you should know.

Hey, would you do me a favor?

Since the episode is over and perhaps you have a moment, tell a friend about this podcast, ask them to give a listen, and I'll bet they thank you for it i'm mike harruthers thanks for listening today to something you should know

you might think you know fairy tales and you might think that they are cute and sweet and boring but the real grim fairy tales were not cute at all they were very dark and they were often very grim on grim grimmer grimest we tell a grim fairy tale to a bunch of kids Perfect for car rides or screen-free entertainment, Grim, Grimmer, Grimmist activates kids' imaginations and instigates fun conversations.

Because fairy tales speak to all of us at a very deep, primal level, and they raise interesting topics and questions that are worth chewing over together as a family.

Every episode is rated Grim, Grimmer, or Grimmest, so you, your kids, your whole family can choose what is the right level of Grimm for you.

Though, if you're listening with Grandma, she's just gonna go for Grimmest.

Trust me on this one.

Tune in to Grim, Grimmer, Grimmest, and our new season available now.

Do you love Disney?

Do you love top 10 lists?

Then you are going to love our hip podcast, Disney Countdown.

I'm Megan, the Magical Millennial, and I'm the Dapper Danielle.

On every episode of our fun and family-friendly show, we count down our top 10 lists of all things Disney.

The parks, the movies, the music, the food, the lore.

There is nothing we don't cover on our show.

We are famous for rabbit holes, Disney-themed games, and fun facts you didn't know you needed.

I had Danielle and Megan record some answers to seemingly meaningless questions.

I asked Danielle, what insect song is typically higher-pitched in hotter temperatures and lower-pitched in cooler temperatures?

You got this.

No, I didn't.

Cicada.

I'm crying.

I'm so sorry.

I should have been the UNO one.

So if you're looking for a healthy dose of Disney magic, check out Disney Countdown wherever you get your podcasts.