The Promise and Peril of Disruptive Technology & How Being in Nature Changes You

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Today, on something you should know, a simple way to stop those cravings that are so hard to resist.

Then, disruptive innovation.

It's changing our world faster than ever.

Today, you have autonomous vehicles, augmented reality, artificial intelligence, alternative proteins.

Those are just the ones that begin with the letter A.

This really is now a pervasive phenomenon that is affecting everyone.

Also, why performing under pressure is so difficult and what can make it easier?

And all the good things that happen when you spend more time in nature.

We find that people's ability to focus and their attention and their short-term memory all improve after brief walks in nature.

We've also seen effects where having lower rates of stroke, diabetes, and heart disease.

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Something you should know, fascinating intel, the world's top experts, and practical advice you can use in your life.

Today, Something You Should Know with Mike Carruthers.

If you're determined not to give in to that sweet tooth craving, there is a strategy that's very effective.

Hi, and welcome to this episode of Something You Should Know.

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They also tried, instead of discussing photos, they had participants look at photos of kittens and a smiling baby and a butterfly, followed by photos of a salad and fruit.

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And that is something you should know.

It's easy to think of inventions or discoveries that completely change the course of history.

The printing press, gunpowder, the smartphone, even something as simple as McDonald's.

These weren't just new ideas, they were massive disruptions that reshaped the way the world works.

But how exactly do these epic disruptions happen and what ripple effect do they leave behind?

That's what we're going to explore with Scott Anthony.

He's a clinical professor of strategy at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth and widely recognized as one of the world's leading innovative thinkers.

He is author of a book called Epic Disruptions, 11 Innovations That Shaped Our Modern World.

Hey, Scott, welcome to Something You Should Know.

Mike, I'm delighted to be here.

So to help us all understand what you're talking about, why don't we just dive right into one of these 11 disruptions, explain what the disruption was and why it's important.

So go back to 1440.

That is the year that Johannes Gutenberg and his team come up with the printing press.

This is a classic disruptive innovation.

Before the printing press, you can take all the books that had ever been printed and essentially put them in a wagon.

After the printing press, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands, millions of books.

We can feel the same echo today with generative artificial intelligence fundamentally changing the way that knowledge knowledge is created and transmitted.

The printing press changed the world.

Artificial intelligence will change the world.

And studying how the printing press worked helps us understand how artificial intelligence might play out as well.

So when the printing press became a thing, was it...

Were people talking about how innovative it was?

Or did it just kind of meld into the world and it just became what it became and nobody was shining spotlights on it.

Well, Mike, it was pretty hard to shine spotlights on things because it was so hard to transmit knowledge.

That's one of the kind of ironies about the printing press.

The historical records of it are pretty thin because it was hard to capture and spread knowledge.

So, you know, you certainly have something where people begin hearing about it.

You have people in the Catholic Church who see some of the early things that the printing press produces and say, hey, this is really cool.

We can go and create a lot more Bibles so many more people can follow our faith.

Little did they know there were going to be other people, Martin Luther, people pushing the Reformation, that would also use that technology to drive a very different kind of change.

And again, I think we're seeing something very similar in AI right now.

The companies that are pushing it, it feels good right now.

but it might not have good impact in the long term for big consulting companies and other companies that are trying to push the technology.

Because AI can do it cheaper, better.

You got it.

Exactly right.

And this is one of the things that you see whenever you go and study history.

Disruptive change is a really powerful force for good.

But here's something important.

It always casts a shadow.

Sometimes that shadow is the company that goes and pushes the technology.

They essentially put themselves out of business.

Eastman Kodak is the organization that invented digital technologies.

Blockbuster Video had a very similar offering to the things that Netflix did.

People see it, but when they try to push it, it actually hurts them.

And you can see the same thing happening today with AI.

Well, yeah, I would imagine that any kind of big innovation, and then people scream that, well, people will be put out of business.

You know, when the car came out, then I imagine people said, well, what about the people that make the whips for the buggies and stuff?

Like, well, they're out of business.

They're going to, this is horrible.

But it just is what it is.

To a degree although it's important again for us to recognize that shadow that disruption casts and recognize there are going to be winners and there are going to be losers it might be the buggy whip manufacturers for the cars or when the transistor came out and really ultimately changed communications networks.

You used to have a lot of people that were connecting circuits together to make phone calls.

You had tens of thousands of jobs that just disappeared.

The upside is technological change creates lots of new opportunities as well.

But that shadow is a really important thing to pay attention to.

Well, this is a question that I have had because I came from the radio business and radio is one of those industries that is on the decline.

And so a lot of people I know have lost their jobs.

And people scream that, for example, that You know, innovation is changing everything.

Industries are going away.

Is it really different?

And is there more of it today?

Or it's just,

it always happens and it's, we're talking about the ones that happen today because they're affecting people today.

Let me give you three snapshots in time.

So 1620, so before either of us existed, Sir Francis Bacon, in his magnum opus, Novan Organtum, said there have been three technologies in world history where you can draw a line before and after, the printing press, which we talked about, the compass, and gunpowder.

That's three technologies in 1,600 years.

When I was first exposed to the idea of disruptive innovation 25 years ago, it was a narrow phenomenon.

That was in more places than those three industries, but still mostly technology companies talked about it.

Today, Alex Partners released a survey earlier this year that said two-thirds of business leaders say their organization is facing imminent disruption.

You have autonomous vehicles, augmented reality, artificial intelligence, alternative proteins.

Those are just the ones that begin with the letter A.

This really is now a pervasive phenomenon that is affecting everyone.

It's happening faster.

It's more widespread than it ever was before.

So I think there is reality and truth to the fact that more people feel it more than they ever did before.

Great answer because

I've always wondered about that.

Because it seems like things are more disruptive, but it also seems like there's a lot of hype about all the disruption.

And it's hard to know, is it real or is it hype or

what?

And you just pointed out that it's pretty real.

For sure.

And, you know, one of the things that I think can help a lot when you're in the middle of an uncertain time and there's a lot of noise and a lot of hype, use a good grounded theory, model, framework, and use history.

History might not repeat, but it certainly rhymes.

You look at things in the right way.

you say, hey, what I'm seeing with artificial intelligence actually looks a lot like what we saw in 1440.

Obviously, the world's different, so things won't be exactly the same, but we can understand how the change might take place.

Or we look at what's going on with autonomous vehicles.

If you look at what happened with the automobile itself in 1920, you recognize that for a big technological shift to come in, you needed to have rules and norms and technologies, things like traffic lights and driver's licenses and so on.

We're going to need the exact same things for autonomous vehicles.

So history can be a really good guide when we're trying to make sense of what's real and what's meaningless noise.

You mentioned gunpowder and

I haven't really ever thought much about that, but wow,

what a change that created.

One of my favorite stories, I have a lot of favorite stories, but gunpowder, one of the things that I think is really nice about gunpowder is you, again, can see modern echoes.

So take yourself back to 1453.

You're inside Constantinople.

An army is approaching the city.

Inside those walls, you're probably feeling pretty safe because you are protected by the Theodosian walls, which had stood for more than a thousand years.

There's a literal moat before you get to two sets of walls that are each 15 feet thick with 96 towers buttressing them.

Impenetrable before.

Saltpeter, sulfur, charcoal, the magic ingredients for gunpowder.

A mysterious gunner named Orbin creates a cannon.

It can shoot a half-ton cannonball a distance of a mile.

The walls crumbled.

The city fell in 47 days.

The current echo.

The defenses of Constantinople were built yesterday.

They lasted until a disruptive technology changed everything.

So the question today is: what are the defenses?

What are the capabilities that you built for yesterday that are meaningless today and might be liabilities in the future?

In Gunpowder's story, we can see that harsh reality that when things change, what used to be strengths can turn into weaknesses.

Wow.

Well, I've got a couple of questions about that.

I'm talking with Scott Anthony.

He's author of a book called Epic Disruptions, 11 Innovations That Shaped Our Modern World.

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So Scott, what you were saying about, I mean, I can't even believe that

they invented a cannon that could shoot a cannonball a mile in the 1400s.

I mean, that's just wild.

It really is unbelievable.

And the path to get there, this was not overnight.

The first reference that I found in my research to gunpowder was in 142 AD.

So it's 1300 years before you get there.

And a lot of tinkering, a lot of people who sadly got injured or lost their lives as experiments went wrong.

It comes to Europe in 1275.

The first cannon is sometime in the 13th century or 14th century.

So a lot of work to get there, but they could do amazing things as the technology continued to advance.

Imagine that feeling, too.

It's kind of hard to imagine.

You had never seen anything like this before.

And from the heavens, this ball descends.

It just, it's hard to put yourself in a place where you think about that.

Yeah.

I mean, imagine that.

Looking up in the sky and seeing this thing coming, going, well, I wonder what that, that's the end of that.

But, you know, I think we still have moments like this.

I remember last year I was in San Francisco and I was having dinner with a friend and he's like, have you taken a robo taxi before?

I said, nope, never done it.

He said, you should do it.

You know, you write about, you live innovation, you should go and experience it.

And I took my first Waymo robo taxi.

And I can tell you, Mike, that the feeling I had when that taxi pulled up and there's no driver and I use the key to get in or whatever, the thing on my app to get into the car and I get in and it's dark and there's this dystopian music playing.

It's kind of like the feeling of that cannonball from the sky.

There's a part of me that's that's excited.

There's a part of me that's like, I'm not so certain this is something I'm happy about.

That's the nature of being a human, I guess.

So you say McDonald's was a big disruptor.

And I think people think, well, what, you know, it's hamburgers.

How disruptive could that be?

But explain that.

So the thing that McDonald's really showcases is what the special sauce of disruption is.

So let me give you the very short version of the story.

The Brothers McDonald's create a restaurant.

That's not particularly interesting.

The restaurant produces all sorts of different food.

That's not particularly particularly interesting.

In 1948, they say we want to do something different.

They shut the restaurant down and they create what they call the speedy service system.

They simplify the menu.

They standardize it.

They borrow principles from Henry Ford and mass production and say, we are going to churn out a limited set of food and we're going to do it really reliably.

That's ingredient number one.

1954, a milkshake equipment salesperson shows up and says, wow, this is amazing.

The turnover you're getting, the rapid rate that you bring in new customers, their satisfaction is so high.

I want to, in essence, bring this concept to the rest of the country.

I want to be your master franchiser.

That person, Ray Kroc, did something really interesting.

He created a franchise system unlike any the world had ever seen.

Rather than a franchise owner trying to extract value from the people who had the local franchises, He said, we're all going to win together.

You would call this in the business world mutuality.

One problem.

McDonald's was spreading, but McDonald's corporation, the parent behind it, wasn't making any money.

So favorable to the franchise owners, the actual owner couldn't make money.

So how did McDonald's ultimately break through?

It made money through real estate.

It found the very best properties in local markets.

It went and leased them at a certain rate and then leased them out to franchise owners, obviously, at a higher rate.

And that was the thing that unlocked its growth.

This is the thing that allowed McDonald's to basically take over the world.

Simplification and standardization, a new model that encouraged mutual creation of value, and finding a unique way to make money.

In the business world, you call this a business model, the way that you create, deliver, and capture value.

And McDonald's shows when you crack a business model, that's when you can really go and take over the world.

I remember reading the book.

There was a book about the McDonald's, the story you just told.

I can't remember what it was called,

The Arches or Golden Arches or something.

And it was so eye-opening how Ray Kroc figured out to make it a real estate company more than a hamburger company.

It's so brilliant the way it unfolds.

And who would have ever thought of that?

It's one of the many things.

I actually, I'm staring at the book.

It's on my bookshelf, McDonald Behind the Arches is the one that you were looking for.

And, you know, that story about how, like almost always, a a struggle led to a surprising insight.

And what was behind all that is the company wasn't making money.

Ray Kroc was frustrated with the franchise deal he had with the McDonald brothers.

He bought them out, but that meant he had to borrow money.

So they weren't making money.

They now had a lot of debt they needed to service.

Necessity, as always, is the mother of invention.

So they figure out this new model.

And you saw a lot of that in the McDonald's story, a lot of experimentation, a lot of trying new things, something that's really persistent and something that I think is an important thing for all of us to remember.

Success is never a straight line.

It's not like Ray Kroc said, I've got all the answers on day one.

Let's just go and make it happen.

It's trial, it's error, it's fumble, it's false step, it's failure that ultimately paves the way to success.

The ones that succeed.

aren't the ones who had the brilliant insight from day one always.

It's the ones who can handle that journey where they're trying, learning, and adapting.

And any one of us can do that.

When you look at these disruptions, is each disruption disruptive in its own unique way?

Or is there a pattern to these disruptions that there's a lesson there?

The pattern is a disruptive innovation takes things that were complicated and expensive, makes them simple and affordable, drives change, leads to massive growth happening.

So, All else being equal, you always bet on the disruptor.

The person who's taking the complicated, making it simple, taking the expensive, making it affordable.

The McDonald's story shows when they figure out the business model, that's often the unlock that leads to massive growth.

In the long run, again, you always bet on disruption.

History helps you to understand what are the big events that mean, okay, now we're really going to see the hypergrowth in this space.

How did Julia Child make your list of disruptors?

She's just,

she was a cook.

So Julia Child's first book, along with Simone Beck and Louisette Berthold, was Mastering the Art of French Cooking, came out in 1961.

Before that book, if you lived in suburban America and you wanted to enjoy great French cooking, what did you do?

Maybe there was a restaurant in the nearest city, maybe not.

Your best bet was to hop on a plane and go to France.

So it was very expensive.

It was very inaccessible.

Mastering the art of French cooking made it simple and accessible for a broader population to enjoy great French food.

That's the essence of Julia Child.

She did it through her cookbooks.

She did it through her TV shows.

She made it more accessible and easier for a broader population to consume, to cook.

That's the essence of disruptive innovation.

And it was not a straight line to success.

She failed the test in Les Cordon Bleu, the famous French cooking school, mastering the art of French cooking, went through three different publishers.

There were a couple near-death experiences, one that was really close to just cutting the whole thing off.

That's just the way the world works.

No No straight lines.

I've always believed that her success had so much more to do with the television show because of her.

Like the book is a cookbook and it's, it's hard for a cookbook to break out, though some have, but, but there was something about her that was so fun to watch.

Intensely human, right?

And she would make mistakes and then she would just stare straight at the camera and say, nobody's watching and just keep going.

And you could really feel like that was you.

And that I think was part of the genius of Julia Child.

She had a belief that anybody could be a great cook with practice.

And she showed up as a fallible human.

She showed up as somebody you could relate to.

She didn't have a voice that was made for media.

She had a voice that some described as a warbler, just this kind of strange voice.

She was six foot one.

So she was just, it's just a really unique character.

And somehow it all worked.

So I absolutely agree, Mike.

I think the TV show, all the things she did to really bring cooking to broader audiences, I think there was just something in it that was magical.

And I think, again, if you say, what's the step back lesson I take from this?

Julia Child always put herself in the shoes of the person in the kitchen cooking.

She put herself in the shoes of what you would call the customer.

And that's a thing if we're trying to innovate, we should always be doing.

We should imagine the person who will use the thing that we're working on, whether it's a coworker, whether it's a child, whether it's a customer, whatever, what does the world look like through their eyes?

And how do I help them do what they're trying to do?

Julia Child was a true master at that.

And that was one of her keys to success.

Lastly,

briefly, the transistor was seemingly such a big thing back in whenever that was, the 60s, I think, or the 50s.

But why was it such a big thing?

Well, we could not do any of the things that we're doing now if we did not have the transistor.

The transistor leads to the semiconductor, leads to the microprocessor, leads to the modern computing age.

So everything, everything we do now traces back to the transistor.

What is so interesting is when the transistor was first announced in 1947, the New York Times put it on page 46, buried it under several other updates on news and radio.

It took five years from that announcement for the transistor to find a commercial home.

It was not in early computers or communications networks.

It was in hearing aids.

Because like many disruptive ideas, the transistor began its life imperfect.

It had new benefits.

It was very rugged.

It was very affordable.

but it actually was not that reliable compared to vacuum tubes that people were using to power electronic devices.

And you had to architect an entire system around it.

So you could not drop it into complex places.

It wasn't good enough.

A hearing aid was perfect.

People could replace the vacuum tubes and the battery packs on their waists with a transistor, which didn't give off heat, which was a lot more affordable.

It was a great market for an imperfect product.

When that started in 1952, no one saw the modern computing age coming, but that's what the transistor created.

Started humbly, changed the world.

Well, that's what's so interesting about all this is they start humbly, they change the world, and there's a lot we can learn from that.

And you tell the stories really well.

I've been talking with Scott Anthony.

He's a clinical professor of strategy at the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth, and he's author of the book Epic Disruptions, 11 Innovations That Shaped Our Modern World.

And there's a link to that book at Amazon in the show notes.

Scott, thanks.

Thanks for the stories.

It was great.

Mike, it's been a pleasure.

Thank you very much.

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You have probably heard, perhaps on a previous episode of Something You Should Know, you've heard that being in nature is good for you.

But if I pressed you to explain to me just how good it is, you might be a little less certain.

I mean, what are the benefits of being in nature?

Is it good for your mental health or your physical health or both?

And just how good is it?

And how long do the benefits last?

Well, that's what Mark Berman is here to discuss.

Mark is a a leading environmental neuroscientist and founder and director of the Environmental Neuroscience Laboratory at the University of Chicago.

His work has been featured in The New Yorker, The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, and other places.

He is author of the book, Nature and the Mind, The Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-Being.

Hey, Mark, welcome to something you should know.

And let's start with just how good is being outside.

I mean, my mother told me since I was little, go outside and play because it's good for you.

Well, how good is it?

It's pretty good.

And there's a lot of different kinds of things that can improve when people interact with nature.

So when we do some of our experiments where we have people walk in more natural environments versus more urban environments, we find that people's ability to focus and their attention and their short-term memory all improve after brief walks in nature, like 50-minute walks in nature.

We've also seen effects where living among more trees and having more green space is related to having lower rates of stroke, diabetes, and heart disease.

People have found that views from hospital rooms, if there are views to nature versus views to more of the built environment or to a wall, people will recover faster from gallbladder surgery and use less pain medication.

People have even found that if there's more nature around public housing facilities,

that there's less reported crime in those facilities and better attention.

So there's, you know, there's wide-ranging mental and physical health benefits from interactions with nature.

And does anybody know what's going on, why that is, why having trees outside does all the things you you just described?

We know some of them, and there's still some open questions.

And nature has a myriad of benefits and there's sort of a myriad of reasons for why people get some of these effects.

So if we think about the improvements that we find when people go for a walk

in nature versus a walk in a more urban environment on their sort of ability to focus and to attend, we think it has to do with a couple couple things so one in a lot of natural environments

you know we're talking about your local park where you feel safe and comfortable you don't have to use a lot of what we call directed attention or directed focus you you don't need to be worried about bumping into people or getting hit by a car there's not a lot of advertising or anything like that to process and you can kind of just let your mind be automatically captured by the interesting stimulation in the natural environment and we think that that is actually good for our brains and might improve our ability to focus afterwards.

What's interesting is that we even find that you can get some of these benefits even from just looking at pictures of nature or listening to nature sounds, which suggests that there's something about the aesthetic of nature, the curved edges, or the fractalness of nature that maybe our brain sort of process more efficiently and that might lead to some of these benefits.

On the physical health side, a lot of the physical health benefits of being around nature, being around trees is probably related to things like better air quality.

Also maybe greener neighborhoods, people might be more likely to go outside and walk or exercise.

But something else that's kind of interesting is that if we think about, this was a study done by Roger Ulrich.

He was the one who did this study looking at people recovering from gallbladder surgery where it was just a single hospital corridor and a hospital in Philadelphia and a view out of people's window significantly impacted how fast they recovered from the gallbladder surgery.

So if they had some trees or grass out of their window, they recovered about a day earlier from gallbladder surgery compared to the patients that had views of just a brick wall or asphalt.

And I would say it's unlikely those effects are driven by air quality or exercise.

It seems like there's something about processing the

different stimulation in nature.

Again, the curved edges, the fractalness, the color palette, that our brains might process more efficiently.

And, you know, because brain and body are united, you know, things that are good for the brain can also be good for the body.

So I think that's a little bit, you know, counterintuitive that even just viewing elements of nature could have some healing qualities.

Can you make the case then?

For example,

I live in California and in a fairly,

I mean, I have nature, but you know, it's a fairly populated area.

I just came back from a week's vacation in Vermont where I was just constantly surrounded by nature.

I mean, just it's everywhere.

It's there aren't many people around.

Can you make the case, is it possible that anyone studied this, that the people who live in those kinds of places where just by definition they're always around nature are healthier than people who are not?

It's a good question.

I'm not sure we have the right data yet to really study that because

there's going to be a lot of differences, for example, between living in maybe a populated area in California and living in a more rural area in Vermont.

Difference is beyond nature.

But, for example, there was this emerald ash borer beetle that was an invasive species that killed millions of ash trees in the Midwest.

And about five years later, researchers found that mortality rates increased.

That when the trees died a few years later, the people

had an increase in incidence of dying,

and in particular due to different cardiometabolic conditions like stroke diabetes and heart disease.

So,

yes,

in a lot of ways, I think if people that have more nature around them, I think they have the potential to be healthier.

But I wouldn't want anybody to take from this research that, oh, we should all, you know, move out of the cities and move into more rural areas, because I think one, that will destroy a lot of the nature that's out there.

But two, there's a lot of benefit to cities.

Researchers have shown that cities have more wealth per capita.

There's more innovation per capita.

We find in our research that there's less depression per capita as cities get more populated.

So there's a lot of advantages to cities.

I think a different way to think about it would be to say,

let's keep all the good with cities, but let's bring in more nature into our cities.

And I wanted to ask you, because we've been talking about the benefits of being in nature, but what does being in nature mean?

I mean, is having a plant on your desk, is that being in nature?

Or do you need to be out in a forest?

Or what exactly do you mean or what does the research say

constitutes being in nature?

Again, it's an excellent question.

It's something that we, when we do a lot of these studies, we kind of ask people, how natural did you feel the experience was?

And, you know, there's going to be a lot of individual differences in that.

Again, when we do our studies where we actually have people

go out in nature, we have not studied things like national parks, things like Yosemite Valley,

really, really grand nature.

The kind of nature that we've been testing are more modest kind of urban parks.

If I was to speculate, I would guess that the more immersive the nature is, the the larger the impact is going to be, the more powerful the impact is going to be.

But I think what's important here is that, you know, even more modest nature, like a city park that, you know,

might be near a lot of buildings and things like that, people can still get benefits from that.

And people have shown that even having some more plants indoors or even fake plants indoors can have some benefits.

We definitely find that interacting with real nature gives you the biggest benefit, but you can get benefits from views to nature, having nature pictures, listening to nature sounds, having plants indoors, those all can produce benefits, but those effects are not as strong as going out in the real thing.

And again, going out into a more immersive, biodiverse nature will likely have the biggest effect.

And is it universal?

In other words, you know, I mean,

if you took people out to walk and and took all the oxygen out of the air, well, they'd all die.

I mean, universally, everybody would die.

But if you put everybody in nature, does everybody do well?

Or do some people go, you know, this sucks.

This is not for me.

I don't like this.

And they have a bad reaction.

Well, I think, you know, there likely are individual differences.

You know, if your basic needs are not met, like, for example, if the people that we had walk in January, if we said, you can't wear a coat out on the walk, I don't think we would have found any benefits.

I think people would have been too uncomfortable.

If you're very uncomfortable or scared in the environment, you know, I think that's going to use a lot of directed attention and you're not going to get the benefit.

But I think if your basic needs are met, you feel safe,

you feel relatively comfortable, then I think for the most part, you know, I think most people are going to get the benefit.

It's that we do think of this as fairly universal, that there's something fundamental about the structure of nature that our brains process more efficiently or

effectively that leads to these cognitive benefits.

Now that doesn't mean that people are going to all like the walk in nature or have their mood improve in nature.

This is about just their kind of attention and cognitive abilities that we think those will improve in nature even if they don't like the interaction.

and I would say that we think that's going to be fairly universal.

So from all this research that you've done

what's the general prescription?

How much is enough?

How much is more than enough?

What's the take?

Yeah, there's still more to uncover.

I think people find that you can get you know, and we've found that you can get benefits from just 10 minutes of looking at nature pictures or 10 minutes of listening to nature sounds.

sounds.

In terms of going out into real nature, people have

thought that about 30 minutes is a good dose to see these effects.

Maybe a little bit longer, you'll get more benefit.

And then as I mentioned too, it might depend on the kind of nature.

So if the nature is more immersive, more biodiverse,

more secluded from car noise and things like that,

we think you you would get a stronger benefit.

But, you know, we're talking about brief walks, maybe a 20 to 30 minute walk can yield benefits.

Other people have suggested that you might try to get about two hours a week of interactions with nature.

How long do the benefits last?

Well, that's a really good question.

It's sort of a hard question to ask.

Most of the studies test people directly after after going on on the walk.

So we don't quite yet know all the dose response relationships.

So, you know, X amount of nature will yield, you know, Y amount of improvement that will last for, you know, Z amount of time.

There do seem to be some, you know, cumulative benefits.

There have been studies with women recovering from breast cancer.

The women were interacting with nature

about three times a week for about two hours in total for about 12 weeks and they found some significant benefits.

I probably like for that population would not have expected them to see effects

after only one week of the interaction.

But I think it's still somewhat unknown how long the effects persist.

Most of the studies that have been done, they test people right after.

And is there ever too much or, you know,

or enough is enough?

Like you can only get so much benefit no matter whether you go live in nature or just go out for a half an hour a day.

Yeah, absolutely.

I'm sure there is

some point where you get diminishing returns.

I did see some research where people were looking at incorporating more nature into the indoors, into your

into homes, for example.

Having

about 10 to 20%

of your space, including plants or vegetation, people seemed to really like that.

When it started to get more than that, people found it to be too cluttered and kind of overwhelming.

So that was too much.

Again, if we think about going on in a real walk in nature, you know, you wouldn't want to be having to like use a machete to clear a path.

You'd probably get more benefits walking on a trail that already exists.

We also think you would get the most bang for your buck when you are sort of in a mentally fatigued state.

So, you know, many of us have had the sensation at the end of a long workday that you become kind of mentally fatigued and it's hard to focus.

You might be just staring at the computer screen, not getting anything done.

We call that a directed attention fatigue state.

And that's the time that we think you would get the most benefit from the walk in nature.

And you did mention it, but I wanted to get a little more precise on the effects or the benefits of bringing plants into your home.

There hasn't been a lot on the cognitive effects, but people talk about these kind of micro doses of nature.

People have found that you know bringing plants in, even fake plants, into hospital rooms can make some painful procedures feel a bit less painful.

Patients feel more rested and relaxed

in hospitals that have real or fake vegetation in them.

Some people have found that, yes, indeed, even having some real plants can improve people's focus somewhat.

But a lot of the work done on these interior spaces revolves around people feeling more comfortable, feeling a bit happier, feeling a bit more at ease

when there's more nature incorporated into indoor-built environments.

You know, I wonder when you said fake, do people know the plants are fake and it still doesn't matter?

Or are they fake good enough that people think they're real or don't make any differentiation?

You know, it's a good question.

I think if it was a really, really

bad artificial plant, maybe it wouldn't have as much of a benefit.

Most people can tell

the artificial nature from real nature, and I know that in some of the hospital studies, the patients did know that it was

still fake nature, artificial nature, and yet it still had an improvement for them on on their mood, lowering their pain and making them feel more comfortable.

Lastly, talk about, I know you write about this, that being in nature seems to have the ability to change what you're thinking about.

So we partnered with a foundation, the TKF Foundation, now it's called Nature Sacred, and this foundation built

a lot of different parks.

And the parks often contained a bench, a wooden bench, and under the bench there was a journal where people could write things down, you know, what they were thinking while they were in the park.

This foundation actually gave us access to these journal entries where they actually transcribed them into a digital format that we could access.

And the foundation also had pictures from some of these parks.

And so one of the first things that we wanted to do is to kind of quantify what do people think think about when they're in these parks?

And could we relate that to the different visual features that were in the park?

So one thing that we did just as a sanity check, we had another set of participants rate the pictures for how natural they thought the pictures were.

And it turned out that parks that had the pictures of them that were rated as more natural, people who were in those parks tended to write more about topics related to nature and naturalness.

So we thought that was a kind of nice sanity check.

But one thing that was kind of mind-boggling, I guess, is that we also quantified in the pictures of the parks how many curved edges there were in the parks.

So like, you know, you could think of a branch of a tree having a lot of curved edges or a bend in a river having a lot of curved edges.

And it turned out that if these parks, if the parks contained more curved edges, people were more likely to write about topics related to spirituality and their life journey.

We also find that when people interact with nature, we tested what people thought about when they went for a walk through the Garfield Conservatory, which is an indoor nature conservatory in Chicago, versus walking in the Water Tower Mall, which is a nice indoor shopping mall in Chicago.

And we found that

when people walked through the nature conservatory, they tended to think more about

people around them and people around the world.

They thought less about themselves.

They thought more about the past.

And they felt more connected to the environment versus the people that walked in the mall.

So these walks in nature seemed to be changing the character of the thoughts that people were having,

which we also thought was

pretty interesting.

Well, that's something I think we all experience when you're out walking in nature and you just feel different, so you think different and you think better.

I've been talking with Mark Berman, he is a leading environmental neuroscientist, and the name of his book is Nature and the Mind: The Science of How Nature Improves Cognitive, Physical, and Social Well-Being.

There's a link to his book in the show notes.

And, Mark, thank you for coming on and talking about this.

Okay, thanks so much.

If you've ever had to perform under under pressure, you know that that pressure makes things a lot harder.

Why is that?

Well, the experts call it the uncertainty of the outcome.

Because there's a lot at stake and you don't know how it's going to turn out, so that creates anxiety.

And anxiety makes everyone perform worse, according to psychiatrist Dr.

Hank Weisinger.

who wrote a book called Performing Under Pressure.

So one way to reduce the anxiety is is to be less invested in the outcome.

For example, parents will often tell their kids that an upcoming test at school is really important.

The hope is that that will motivate them to do well, but it often does just the opposite.

It can increase the anxiety which will motivate them to do worse or maybe even cheat.

Preparation and practice also help alleviate pressure.

Anytime you're in a pressure situation, it's very important to be able to say, I've done this a million times before.

And as you think that and think of all the successes you've had, it actually gives you a sense of confidence.

Confidence is the antithesis of feeling pressure.

And that is something you should know.

Like every podcast, we're always trying to get new listeners.

And the best way to get new listeners is for existing listeners to tell people they know and get them to listen.

So I would appreciate it if you would tell people about this podcast and ask them to listen.

I'm Mike Carruthers.

Thanks for listening today to Something You Should Know.

I'm Jonathan Goldstein, and on the new season of Heavyweight.

And so, I pointed the gun at him and said, This isn't a joke.

A man who robbed a bank when he was 14 years old, and a centenarian rediscovers a love lost 80 years ago.

How can a 101-year-old woman fall in love again?

Listen to Heavyweight wherever you get your podcasts.

You know, a lot of the guests who appear on Something You Should Know have their own TED Talk.

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If you love hearing fascinating stories, insights about human behavior, and mind-blowing concepts that weren't even on your radar before, I recommend you check out TED Talks Daily.

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