The Council of Nicaea

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

Talk about refreshing.

You know what else is refreshing this summer?

A brand new phone with Verizon.

Yep, get a new phone on any plan with Select Phone Trade In MyPlan.

And lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan.

This is a deal for everyone, whether you're a new or existing customer.

Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals.

Three-year price guarantee applies to then current base monthly rate only.

Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratchers from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

I'm Scott Hanson, host of NFL Red Zone.

Lowe's knows Sundays are for football.

That's why we're here to help you get your next DIY project done, even when the clock isn't on your side.

Whether that's a new Filtrate filter or Bosch and Cobalt power tools, Lowe's has everything you need to feel like the MVP of DIY.

So get it done and earn your Sunday.

Shop now in store and online.

Lowe's, official partner of the NFL.

1700 years ago, an unprecedented council of early Christian bishops gathered at Nicaea, not far from present-day Istanbul.

The council had been convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine, Constantine the Great, to address a theological dispute, a schism amongst early Christians that threatened to explode across the empire.

Constantine wanted it sorted.

At the center of the council was the issue of homoousion.

This idea that the Father, God, the Son, who would be Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all equal.

The two figureheads on opposing sides of this dispute were Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria on one side, and Arius, a member of the clergy, on the other.

Arius had the idea that there was almost this divine hierarchy, that the Son was subordinate to the Father.

Alexander and his followers believed that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were of equal weight and shared the same divine substance.

This dispute was the so-called Arian controversy.

The bishops had gathered at Nicaea to determine which was the correct doctrine and which was heresy.

Their decision remains central to Christianity even today.

It's the ancients on history hit.

I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.

Joining me to explain the Council of Nicaea and why this ecumenical council was one of the most important events of early Christianity, I was delighted to interview Dr.

Dafith Daniel, a lecturer in divinity at the University of St.

Andrews.

We delve into the fascinating details of this early Christian theological dispute, and I really do hope you enjoy.

Dafith, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Well, thank you very much.

It's a pleasure to be here.

And it's a special anniversary, it feels this year, because 2025, it's the 1700th anniversary of one of the most pivotal moments in Christian history, the Council of Nicaea.

But this isn't just a dry theological debate.

It's got power, politics, intense religious rivalry, all set against the the backdrop of the Roman Empire's first Christian emperor, Constantine the Great.

So with that established, I mean, let's start with the basics.

For listeners who might not be familiar with early Christianity, what was the Council of Nicaea and why does it still matter so much today?

So the Council of Nicaea was a church council called by the Emperor Constantine in 325.

It's the first ecumenical council, so worldwide council.

In fact, the word ecumenical was coined by Eusebius of Caesarea, one of the early church historians who was there to describe this council worldwide.

It's significant because it decides really two of the most sort of fundamental doctrines in Christianity that we've all sort of heard about, the Trinity and the Incarnation, but also because through that, it really is...

the beginning of, well, one of two things, depending on your point of view.

It's either the beginning of modern Christianity, Christianity is a public, visible religion, civic religion, or it's the beginning of the corruption of Christianity, because it involves this decision of what is orthodox and therefore what is heretical heretical and involves the state's action in that.

Is it quite a definitive line that either you go the way that is agreed and that's orthodox or if you don't and anything else is seen as heresy?

Yes, this is where the church council produces this Nicene Creed.

something still read out today, this sort of foundational text.

Now, it certainly is trying to clearly decide a distinction between orthodoxy and heresy.

One of the interesting things is that it's not necessarily entirely clear what Nicaea has decided.

These obscure phrases, homoousion, which I'm sure we'll get to, what does that really mean?

Is that heretical itself, which was one perspective at the time?

And then even though Nicaea, the council, makes this decision, in the immediate aftermath, really the opposing side, who are the Aryans, seem to come to the fore a bit more than the Nicenes.

So it's part of a very vibrant struggle or discussion, depending how you want to phrase it, through this period.

Well, we're going to be exploring all of that in detail.

But Daph at the beginning as we kind of explore the background you also mentioned in passing a figure called Eusebius of Caesarea.

Do we have many literary sources for this event in this time in history?

Yeah it's striking is that because we don't really that's the I suppose that's the interesting thing because I think now we'd certainly I would think of a something like a church council of any kind would have all sorts of minutes taken and there'd be all these records and everything else.

But that's not the case here.

I mean it goes on for a couple of months, it seems.

We're not in time, maybe starts on the 20th of May, ends in July in Nicaea 325.

Even that's not that clear.

Our main sources for it are Eusebius of Caesarea, who is there, and also Athanasius of Alexandria.

Obviously, they have their own particular point of view and perspective, which may well interfere with their account and recognition of what's gone on.

But it's in their books.

that we have their account of what went on, but also extracts from some of Constantine's letters, which follow the council, which go up to the church to tell the church what were decisions that have been made.

And of course, other records of, for example, the writings of Arius.

And part of the build-up to the controversy is sort of hundreds of letters being exchanged all over the place between these various bishops, theologians, and versions of those recorded in those historical accounts, as well as others later on.

So there's Theodoretus of Cyrus and a couple of other sort of historians, more in the fifth century, who also have some sort of access to documents that don't seem to survive and only survive in those histories.

Constantine also wrote other letters to try and prevent the council happening, to try and stop everyone arguing and to calm down.

Again, we've got sort of versions of those letters.

Whether they're how accurate they are is open to debate.

Well, let's explore the context as to why this council is happening in 325 AD.

Big question, Daphth.

What is happening in the Roman Empire and the church in those years running up to 325?

Yeah, okay.

So in the empire itself, and and so we're coming out of the so-called crisis of the third century, sort of unsettled period in Roman history, right?

So we've had the plagues like Plague of Cyprian, which has wiped out 50% of Alexandria and things like that.

And all these barbarian tribes attacking in the third century lead to unsettled situation.

Various people declaring themselves Caesar all the time, right?

You know, they win a battle when they're going to be the new emperor.

So the crisis of the third century has led to, at the end of that period, the Tetrarchy, so tetrarchy system of government has been established by Diocletian, which has seemed to work sort of fairly well.

You've got two Augusti, right, two senior emperors, East and West, then these junior Caesars beneath them, and that, of course, means you've got more imperial people closer to the action across the empire, to the troubled areas.

And that seemed to work fairly well until 306, when the Augustus at that point, the leader Augustus in the West, Constantius, who is Constantine's father, dies.

And that then leads really to set off to civil war in the empire between these rival Augusti and Caesars.

They all stop fighting each other.

Not least Constantine, of course, but another chap, Maxentius, who was one of the original Augusti, but he's been left out of the equation.

And then this other fellow, Licinius, who'd been promoted above both Maxentius and Constantine, much to their consternation.

And so they've all been fighting with each other.

Maxentius is significant because it leads us to the Battle of Milvian Bridge, which I'm sure we'll come to.

That's 312.

That's where Constantine gets rid of him, his half-brother.

And then later on, Constantine gets rid of his other half-brother, Licinius, in the Battle of Chrysopolis in 324.

So, period of civil war and settlement.

Now, we've got this single man, Constantine, has become the sole emperor.

So, a period of settlement has emerged there through periods of unrest.

That's the empire at large.

The church, well, the church has also come through really its main periods of persecution.

So, there's only two really empire-wide persecutions of the church.

One of them is Decius in the 250s.

It's not aimed at Christianity as such.

Decius wants a return to the worship of the ancient gods, and so that gathers the Christians up into it.

As part of the Tetrarchy, however, Diocletian, Galarius, do have a concentrated persecution against Christians.

This is called the Great Persecution.

And that has continued until softly in 311 when Galarius releases an edict of toleration, but finally with the Edict of Milan, which comes out of Constantine and Licinius before they separate.

So it's been a period of unrest, of unrest for the Empire and the Church, and persecution for Christians, which is part of this, does feed into Nicaea because part of the struggle, sort of internal politics of the church, and part of Constantine's concern is the fact that after those periods of persecution, you have certain Christian groups who are claiming to be the true church.

And this is most famously with the Donatists in Africa.

I mean, one of Constantine's first acts in 314, so even before he's been towards Nicera, is to have the Council of Arb, which is to try and quiet these Donatists.

So the Donatists oppose people who apostatized during the persecution.

They surrendered the Bible, surrendered their faith.

Now they want to come back into the church, and the Donatists refusing.

And the same thing is happening in Egypt with a chap called Militius.

And so the Militians are also this group that don't necessarily seem suspect in their orthodoxy, unlike Aries and others that we'll come to, but they are claiming to be the real church of the spiritual church, the church of saints.

And so again, there's a threat of schism and separation.

So already in those immediate decades before the Council of Nicaea and before we get to the figure of Arius, there are other figures, as you've highlighted there, the Donatists and so on, which are almost a symbol of what's to come, that there are divisions emerging, maybe catalyzed by these persecutions that have happened in recent history.

There are divisions in how people are viewing Christianity and how they should approach it.

Yes, yeah, exactly right.

No, exactly right.

I mean, the status of Christianity, even as a religion in the empire, has been much debated, right?

It's only in that Edict of Milan that Christianity actually becomes officially recognised as a religion.

I mean, that's part of a significant stage, right?

It's not even viewed as a religion at that point.

And yes, as you say, there's unrest about the status of the church, status of Christianity.

Is it a suspect cult?

Is it something serious?

Even before this point, you've had the persecution of Decius in the 250s.

After that, it's what's known as the little piece of the church, the sort of 40 years or so between that persecution and the great persecution.

And then we've got this, the emperor Aurelian, and he is already off to try and decide a controversy about another heresy, which is still being debated at the time with the Nicene Church, which is known as Sabalianism, with this extraordinary character, Paul of Samusata, who's a bishop of Antioch, who claims the privilege of the Queen Zenobia, who's sort of annexed part of Egypt and Syria from the empire.

So, yeah, already the empire has been involved in trying to decide what's going on.

And of course, that goes back, you know, the earliest record that we have of Christianity even being discussed is pliny with trajan you know saying he's found these odd people you know i've tortured them anyway uh now what should i do with them now you know something yes he's like um don't go looking for the christians but if they do you can execute them or something like that

that sounds right they've got a very um interesting relationship with the christians early on it seems like in regards to the events of the roman empire up to the nicene creed some key events and things to highlight as you have highlighted already daphyth is at the end of the third century crisis, the emperor Diocletian comes along, creates the ruler for the Tetrarchy, those two senior emperors and those two junior emperors.

Seems to work for a period of time, but then after Diocletian goes, the next successor is Constantius Chlorus, he dies early on.

His son, Constantine, is proclaimed emperor in 306.

And very quickly, it all starts falling apart.

And you get those civil wars, like Constantine versus Maxentius, and so on, ultimately leading to Constantine ditching the Tetrarchy completely and becoming a sole emperor again by the time we get to the Council of Nicaea.

So let's focus on Constantine's career a bit to get more context into his adoption or his relationship with Christianity by that time, because it seems it's been 13 years or so, hasn't it, by 325 and his the beginning of his relationship with Christianity.

I feel this is where we probably want to explore the Milvian Bridge and why that's important.

It's an extraordinary story, isn't it?

And much debated how much truth there is in this and how it relates to wider sort of political motivations for Christian conversion as well as anything else.

But Constantine is about to fight this battle against Maxentius and has this vision of a sign in the sky and this line in this sign, conquer, and later has a dream, a dream of Christ coming to him.

This is how it's relayed by Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea, both of whom knew Constantine personally.

And the sign in question is the Cairo symbol.

So the Cairo symbol is just the first two letters of Christos in Greek.

It's an X with a big P sticking out the top of the X.

And Constantine makes this his symbol, right?

He puts it on his standards, on his shield, and fights with this and wins an extraordinary victory.

It's not clear why Maxentius comes out to fight even at such an exposed area and so wins.

And so because that Constantine thanks the Christian God, you know, dedicates the victory to it, thinks it's come from that, and carries on using this symbol.

It's said that Licinius lived in great fear of it, you know, at this later battle, Chrysopolis 324.

It's sort of pagan symbols of Licinius against this Cairo symbol.

So, what's his real view of Christianity?

I mean, it's clearly, it seems to have been a monotheist, right?

So, it seems to have believed in one God, and seems like a lot of people in the ancient world too, and not least Christians themselves, to have had the view that you may have sort of natural revelation of God

and then further revelation of Him.

So, there's no inconsistency to say, well, the Sun God is revealed as actually being this other one God, this Christian God.

And then you take Christianity very seriously.

I mean, as I mentioned, the Council of Isles very early on when he's deciding about Odonatus, but, you know, St.

Peter's Basilica right in Rome, that's 318.

Starts to build that, then 330, establishes Constantinople as a new capital.

That's sort of festooned with all its Christian buildings.

It's a vibrant...

pluralist sense of religion, isn't it?

That religion can appear in different forms as long as it's peaceful.

And that the particular religion that you worship in this day of Christianity of Constantine doesn't have to, he doesn't have to repeal the Edict of Milan, which is about freedom of religious worship, and convert to a Christian.

That's sort of what I'm trying to get across, I suppose.

It seems to be a bit more toleration at that time, doesn't it?

And I remember interviewing Professor David Potter, and he was saying how with Constantine, it almost seemed like he was hedging his divine bets at times.

Patronage to Christians, but also building temples and churches.

So doing both things at hand.

But as time goes on, as you say, that endures.

So by the time we get to 325 AD does he feel responsibility is he the one who calls the council together or what do we know about that yes so he does call the council and seems to preside over it in some form interjecting the debate so far as we can tell he feels bound to call it as far as we can tell from the documents we have from the time it's not that he's very interested again back to your point about hedging the bets not he's very interested in the theological question that's at issue in fact he thinks it's ridiculous as far as we tell that you know they should stop messing around and introducing disorder debate over this sort of minute and obscure, you know, theologians of any age, I suppose, can find something to disagree over.

They need not to bother with that sort of stuff just to keep peace in the church.

So his interest definitely in peaceableness, in order.

I mean, Eusebius dubs him bishop of those outside the church.

So he's not an official churchman, not baptised, of course, as he isn't until he's just before he dies.

But he's responsible for those who are believers.

Another way of putting it I suppose is that what Constantine represents is the laity, right?

The voice of the laity coming into Christian affairs.

They should be represented, they should have a sense of it, because you can't allow theologians to entangle things in endless debates, especially when those debates spill over into civic disorder.

So, is it a case then that Constantine hears that there are these divisions emerging in the Christian church and he's worried about dissent, about trouble within the empire if it's not sorted?

Yeah, that's right, that's it.

So,

Arius is a priest in Alexandria, so just a priest, and he objects to what his bishop Alexander is teaching.

So he objects to it.

And he makes his objections very clear and then writes to loads of other people to say that this patriarch is a heretic basically.

And

should we really be following him?

Should we actually maybe organise our own deacons?

It seems that some followers of Arius are even sort of ordaining their own deacons and so on.

So a threat to that order, right, that principle of order within the church.

So then both Alexander and Arius are writing all over the place to sort of hundreds of other bishops across,

Syria, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, in modern-day terms, writing to all of them to try and get them on their side.

And of course, then they are then appealing to imperial power, imperial authority to help try and decide this debate.

And so in the end, Arius is exiled.

And 3-2-1, he's thrown out, but he doesn't wish to be thrown out.

So he appeals back.

And Constantine says, look, can't you just both, you know, shake hands and call it a draw or whatever and move on.

And

then they have their own individual synods to try and decide the answer to the question.

And that can't decide it.

so then finally constantine says right well he's going to organize something just to decide this question once and for all this question is caused disorder through africa through turkey whatever else if people are saying that this is something that they're going to disagree about then we better try and settle the question and that's why it's the first ecumenical council so it seems to be 315 bishops extraordinary number of people and that would then include thousands of priests like brought in from across the empire only five from the west interestingly most of these are eastern bishops only five from the west But you know, they're all coming in to try and decide this question.

Just if we can decide this question, then maybe everyone can just move on and stop arguing about it.

I think Constantine's point seems to be: if you want to debate some minute point of theology, then you can.

But the idea of then threatening a schism, really, which is what this is, threatening the church become divided into different types of different churches to rival each other, then that's not going to help simple battle and disagreement.

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

Talk about refreshing.

You know what else is refreshing this summer?

A brand new phone with Verizon.

Yep, get a new phone on any plan with Select Phone Trade In MyPlan.

And lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan.

This is a deal for everyone, whether you're a new or existing customer.

Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals.

Three-year price guarantee applies to them current base monthly rate only.

Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

Running a business online?

Look legit and own your own brand with professional tools from GoDaddy.

Instantly build trust with your customers and boost your credibility with an email that matches your domain so people know you mean business.

There's never been a better time.

Just go to godaddy.com/slash GDNow and choose from a wide variety of popular domains to find one that's right for you.

Pair that with a professional email that works for all your business needs from daily communications to email marketing and everything in between.

That's a little price for a lot of credibility.

For a limited time, get a domain and matching professional email for just 99 cents a month for one year.

Go to go daddy.com slash GDNow and look legit with GoDaddy.

That's godaddy.com slash GDNow.

Again, go daddy.com slash GDNow.

There's never been a better time to choose the domain and email that's right for you.

New customer purchases only, products auto-renew separately.

See terms on site.

Go daddy.com slash GDNow.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day, Scratchers, from the California Lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly.

Must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.

With a Wealthfront cash account, your uninvested cash earns 4% annual percentage yield from partner banks with free instant withdrawals, even on weekends and holidays.

4% APY is not a promotional rate, and there's no limit to what you can deposit and earn.

Wealthfront, money works better here.

Go to wealthfront.com to start today.

Cash account offered by Wealthfront Brokers LLC member FINRA SIPC.

Wealthfront is not a bank.

The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change and requires no minimum.

Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

David, before we explore the Council of Nicaea, I hope you don't mind if we delve into a bit more detail about what Arius and Alexander were disagreeing about and really, really get that sorted for us so we can nail that down.

And also, I guess, first of all, why it's happening in Alexandria?

You mentioned there's a patriarch of Alexandria.

So set the scene of Alexandria at this time in Egypt and the strength of Christianity there.

And then

what is the root of this disagreement that erupts between Arius on one side and Alexander on the other?

It's incredibly interesting, isn't it, important to remember that we've got Paul's letters as the earliest documents of the Christian religion, and these are writing to these churches in the Eastern world, right?

Fesus, Corinth, in Greece, and so on.

So really the Eastern Empire, which later will become the Byzantium Empire, is the start of Christianity, where Christianity comes from and grows out into the West.

So, just fewer bishops in the West, fewer Christians in the West.

This really is a thriving Greco-Christian culture in these areas of the world, Asia Minor, Alexandria, and so on.

And so, later on, we're going to have Jerusalem as a important place, then Constantinople, a little bit later, an important place.

But at the moment, we've got Antioch in Syria and Alexandria in Egypt, as these really key posts in the Christian world.

And this is where a concentration of bishops are, then across these areas, metropolitan bishops.

And then they have their own priests and everything else.

The estimate is really that by 300, 10% of the empire is Christian, so sort of 10 million people.

And then by the middle of the fourth century, you've got about half of the empire is Christian.

So, you know, growing numbers and large numbers to debate these issues with each other.

The actual debate, the actual debate between the two,

we've got the Trinity, right?

We all know the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.

We've got an issue here then of the Father and the Son.

Are they all equal?

Are they equal?

Is there any differences between them?

What's the difference between the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost?

Are they the same and different?

If you're saying they're really different, then you're saying you've got three gods.

So you don't want to have that.

You don't want to be a polytheist.

So you want to connect them in some way.

So how are you going to connect them and bring them together?

Now, Aries' claim is really straightforward semantics, is that the Son must be subordinate to the Father, otherwise it's not a Son and it's not a father.

So, his claim, Arianism, is a form of a particular viewpoint that we call monarchianism.

So, monarchianism comes from monarch, right?

Monos, one, and then arke, principle, rule.

So, one principle rule.

A belief then that God is one, that God is not just a being, God is being, God is everything, God is all, God is this essence beyond description, a particular substance, a divine substance, a deity, something above all things.

He's created a world completely different from it, that's utterly transcendent from it.

Now, the Christian religion then poses a great threat for these Greek philosophically minded figures like Arius and others, that you've got this principle of God.

How can you then explain that it becomes incarnate?

Arius solves it in an interesting way.

So Arius' point is that there's the God, God of substance, God that becomes a father when he begets a son.

So Arius' tagline is that there was a time that the sun was not.

The sun is not eternal because he hasn't existed existed always, unlike God.

So what the sun is for Arius, in effect, is divine, but not the deity, not the Godhead.

It's another level or ranking of divinity between the two.

And so it means the sun is the creator of the world, is the mediator of the world, can become incarnate to save the world, but you leave the father as pure Godhead, if you like, above it.

So that allows Arius to solve that problem.

So the Son is Jesus, is it?

This idea that Jesus wasn't there at the beginning, but he's created by God for his mission on earth and that.

Yeah, that's right.

So the Son is Jesus.

So the Son becomes incarnate then as Jesus in the world, and then can exist to save it in the world.

So, I mean, let's put it in these sort of terms, right?

The Son is at home with the Father in heaven or whatever, right?

Now, the Son then decides to leave that place and become incarnate as a particular human being.

which is Jesus, and then acts to save it.

Well, I mean, one thing I suppose to emphasize about Arianism is that it shouldn't be confused with a later heresy called Sassinianism, which denies the divinity of Jesus.

I mean, this is still saying that Jesus is the Son of God and is divine.

It's just he's a different level of God.

He's not the highest God.

So that is Arius' position.

So how does that differ then from Alexander's?

Yeah, okay.

So what's the problem with Arius?

Well, Arius is suggesting what's called heteroousio, right?

So usio is substance and hetra is different, that the father and the son are different different substances, different divine substances.

So one problem there for Alexander is that that seems to return us to polytheism.

We've got more than one God, more than one divine substance.

So this is where you get then the homoousion viewpoint.

What that is saying is that the father and the son are the same substance.

They're equal.

Now,

what's the problem with saying that?

Why is that such a problem?

That seems to be okay, right?

Say they're the same, they're equal.

Well, the problem for Arius, why Arius views it as a heresy, is that then then what you're saying is that the Father becomes incarnate and dies on a cross.

And you shouldn't be saying that, right?

Because you should be able to distinguish something about these persons.

There must be different persons.

In Arius' own light, he's actually being the most Christian because he's preserving that there's three different persons in the Godhead.

Whereas for their opponent, Alexander, they're being really Christians because they're preserving the fact that Christ is fully divine in the same sense as the Father.

And so that's why they want to push that homoousion language.

Well, let's now move on to the debate.

So you've already highlighted how this explodes out of Alexandria.

It reaches the Emperor Constantine and he starts getting worried that it will affect concord and harmony in the empire.

So the creating of this council, and as you've also highlighted, this feels unprecedented.

It doesn't feel like this has happened before, has it?

When the council is called and the people get together, what should we be imagining at Nicaea?

What should we imagine with this council and how it looks?

Well, it's a great question because no one's entirely sure.

I mean, it's like open to our imagination a little bit.

I mean, and I find it very difficult to imagine.

It must be the most extraordinary thing ever.

I mean, so Constantine pays for it all to bring all of these bishops together.

The discussion is in Greek.

Constantine, when he speaks, speaks in Latin, it seems for the most part, rather than Greek, although he does understand Greek and occasionally talks in Greek.

And he's actively there as well.

He's not

dictating it from afar.

Okay.

No, no, he's actively there.

So he opens the council.

So you can imagine these, I mean, in effect, thousands of people gather gathered together in Nicaea.

He moves it to Nicaea just so he can attend, because that's closer to where he is.

And, you know, Eusebius and Athanasius give these extraordinary glowing descriptions of Constantine opening the debate.

You know, Eusebius is describing this sort of transfigured figure, right, sort of in this glowing gold, opening the discussion.

Then what it is is really heated argument for months between these bishops and others.

They are heavily disagreeing.

As you alluded to earlier, they're not always clear whether in actual fact they are agreeing rather than disagreeing.

There's one great story which seems sadly not to be true, that Father Christmas himself, Saint Nicholas, who maybe was not even actually there, but he was around and was a Nicene, that he was at the council and sort of biffed Arius on the nose.

He sort of slapped him across the face for his views, which says Father Christmas, you wouldn't have imagined it.

So yeah, a really heated, heated discussion that each side feels that their view is the orthodoxy, right?

Should be the view, and that each other view is really in danger of doing something.

You know, one view feels it threatens the divinity of Christ and therefore salvation, the other that it really diminishes our idea of what God and the Godhead is.

And then there are even compromises suggested.

And according to Eusebius of Caesarea, it's actually the Constantine himself who rejects those sorts of compromises.

He insists on Homosion.

Constantine seems to prefer that sort of language of clarity, just say, well, this is the point of view, and that's it.

And then in the end, they all have to sign this creed, sign their agreement to a Nicene Creed, which only two bishops don't do secundus of ptolemaes and theonis of mammaris i think they're those two they don't sign they're the only two don't sign and they're deposed as a result aries is exiled they're exiled then constantine at the end you know we decide homouson that's the end of the debate we've settled it all and then he issues aries' work to be burned you know you're not meant to support his his works not meant to even own them or have them this is now the orthodoxy and is this all written down then if it was important to then cover this in the nicene creed because what is this and is is almost as you say the kind of the confirmation written down of what they've agreed that's right yeah and so that is the nicene creed so it is emphasizing the divinity of jesus as the son incarnate and that the divinity of jesus is equal with that of the father that the god and the father of are one and so this is where it says you know the substance of the father god from god light from light true god from true god all that sort of language and begotten not made that later on becomes you know eternally begotten to emphasize that god the son is also internal And then further to emphasize that, you know, the one substance, right?

Homo.

The Son is from the substance of the Father, from this Godhead, that divine substance, but it's also one with that substance.

It's really emphasized the fact that the Son is divine and equal, and therefore Jesus is divine and equal.

And so it is, you know, that great Aryan tagline, you know, there was a time when he was not.

So in other words, the Son was born at a certain point, was made.

Well, that's anathema.

There was not a time when he wasn't, and so on.

As I say, the Holy Spirit is just mentioned as an aside, right?

And the Holy Spirit, so that's still needed to be settled.

And then this fundamental question, right?

Okay, we're clear now.

There's a Trinity.

The Son is equal with the Father.

They're all divine.

They're Homoous on the same substance.

How can Christ be both human and divine?

I won't go to that now because that's a huge other thing.

But when that is decided, this language of homoousion returns.

So, you know, what does Nicaea settle in itself?

It gives great clarity as a substantive statement.

with a controversial word, and then it still leaves open many questions how God can be three persons in one.

But then, part of the point then is that maybe some things just have to be left a mystery, right?

Maybe things are not inaccessible to human reasoning and everything else.

That's part of the viewpoint here.

And that seems to be Constantine's view in his letters.

We've got a letter of Alexander's when he's complaining about Arius to another Alexander of Byzantium, and just he's saying that Arius is straying into things that are beyond human reason, right?

So there's certain mysteries that have to be left there.

That might be part of the argument.

Popsicles, sprinklers, a cool breeze.

Talk about refreshing.

You know what else is refreshing this summer?

A brand new phone with Verizon.

Yep, get a new phone on any plan with Select Phone Trade In MyPlan.

And lock down a low price for three years on any plan with MyPlan.

This is a deal for everyone, whether you're a new or existing customer.

Swing by Verizon today for our best phone deals.

Three-year price guarantee applies to then-current base monthly rate only.

Additional terms and conditions apply for all offers.

Running a business online?

Look legit and own your own brand with professional tools from GoDaddy.

Instantly build trust with your customers and boost your credibility with an email that matches your domain so people know you mean business.

There's never been a better time.

Just go to godaddy.com/slash GDNow and choose from a wide variety of popular domains to find one that's right for you.

Pair that with a professional email that works for all your business needs, from daily communications to email marketing and everything in between.

That's a little price for a lot of credibility.

For a limited time, get a domain and matching professional email for just 99 cents a month for one year.

Go to godaddy.com slash gdnow and look legit with godaddy.

That's godaddy.com slash gdnow.

Again, go daddy.com slash gdnow.

There's never been a better time to choose the domain and email that's right for you.

New customer purchases only products auto-renew separately.

See terms on on site.

Go daddy.com slash GDNow.

So at the Council of Nicaea, they ultimately come up with the Nicene Creed and the understanding of homoousion and being three different parts.

Is there anything else big that we haven't covered that is achieved at the Council of Nicaea alongside the Nicene Creed and the condemning of Arianism or of what Arius believes is heresy?

It does do much more than the Creed, which is part of why the debates went on for months about a lot of things.

I mean, even celibacy of priests is something that is whether priests can be married is something that's being heavily discussed as well.

So one thing is the date of Easter.

Again, the idea of uniformity.

It doesn't work, of course, because East and West still have different dates for Easter following that because they date the spring equinox at different times.

But that was the idea that you could move away from the Jewish calendar, but also try and get everyone to agree when they celebrate easter also sunday establishes the day of rest one thing that constantine does you know one thing that comes out of the nicer council is not just the creed it's also the canons this is the beginning of canon law right church law the first stems of canon law what they're a lot about is about church structure organization how do you organize things so a lot of these canons are setting rules for how you decide who's going to be a bishop It's setting rules that you, as a deacon and a priest, you have to follow the direction of your particular bishop in your area.

That if you're exiled or anathematized in one area of the church, one province, one bishopric, you can't just move next door, right, and then become carry on being a priest over there.

So, a lot of that is decided laid down as that canon law.

You know, I mentioned by celibacy of priests.

I mean, it's decided that priests can remain married there, they just can't live with any woman that they want to live with, or isn't of upright character, I think is how they put it.

Also, about whether eunuchs can be priests, and it's decided they can be, but you can't castrate yourself, you know, you can't willfully do that.

Um, but if you've already gone through that process, you can become a priest and so on.

So, those are some of the other things that come out of Nicaea and laid down and sent round to churches.

And that's why we have those to survive, right?

They're sort of gathered together, and they're the things that are sent out and laid down and kept.

I mean, we talk about this as the first ecumenical council, and Eusebius Caesar describes it in those terms.

But, you know, so after this, and even before this, there were so many synods.

And, you know, I've mentioned Constantius, the son of Constantine.

He tries to have lots of his own councils to go in a more Aryan direction, to reject a Nicaea.

They're not then classed anymore anymore as ecumenical councils, right?

Because they don't fit this list of what's decided as what is Orthodox.

But no, the Nicaea is doing a lot of different things.

And you can see there this laying down of maybe centralization isn't necessarily the right word, but the church has, what has the Christian church been?

I mean, the earliest churches that survive are in sort of from the 230s, these house churches, right?

More informal churches, private gatherings, you know, but now we've got Constantine is building churches, a visible display of christianity you can see already there's this huge network of bishops i mean staggering really how christianity was already organized in in this way even before constantine's conversion and so really the structure was already in place but now it's being more formularized right there's a sort of formal idea of what can be gone you know once there's a rule once the rule is decided you can say well look you're disobeying this rule we all agreed this right we got together we agreed it and so let's all follow it it does seem as if it's an important moment in the changing relationship between the church and the state doesn't it and especially also with the emperor constantine's presence as well as an overarching figure.

I mean, Daphne, this has been brilliant, but just to wrap it up with the aftermath.

So Arianism, it doesn't disappear after the council.

It doesn't disappear.

No, it doesn't disappear.

I mean, it has immediate afterlife in that it becomes more successful in the short term because Constantius, Constantine's son, was educated by Eusebius of Nicomedia, who was the great Arian defender at Nicaea.

And he's greatly embedded in the imperial court.

And it's part really of exiling all sorts of Nicene people.

Athanasius goes, Eustathius of Antioch goes, you know, Narcellus of Anciro, all these figures who are nice, pro-Nicene figures, actually get into trouble and lose their sees for a while.

And so actually, the Arians gain ground.

And it seems that

Constantius is more interested in it.

And so Jerome has this line later on.

He says, the world groaned to wake up and find itself Arian.

That really Arianism was this short-term successor for a while.

Then, of course, you've got Julian the Apostate and that sort of false part.

And then we go back to Nicene Emperor's Jovian and then finally Thadosius.

I mean, also, Arianism has an interesting afterlife in two very different contexts.

One, I always find really interesting is that through, I'm going to get his name right now, but it's Olfila, a priest ordained by this Eusebius of Nicanidea, he is the apostle to the Goths.

And so the Visigoths and the Vandals who sack Rome are actually Arians.

They're Arian Christians at that time.

But no, Arianism survives.

And of course, you know, some great figures are Arian.

The most famous...

Arian really is Isaac Newton, sir, Isaac Newton is Arian.

And he despises Athanasius.

He thinks Athanasius was the Antichrist, that Nicaea, and obviously this was the beginning of the end of Christianity, has been destroyed from being a pure biblical religion, where you look at this scripture, what it's conveying to you, to something that is corrupted by an immoral murderer and power-seeking Athanasius away from it.

And of course, you know, he wasn't public about that because of the Test Incorporation Acts.

You know, in Britain, from the middle of the 17th century to the middle of the 19th century, you have the Test Incorporation Acts, which meant you had to sign up to not being an Aryan, to believing in the Trinity in the Nicene Way, to go to university, well, in Oxford and Cambridge, to have political office, to join the church.

And this was to get rid of a sort of variant of Arianism, like Unitarianism, which just don't believe in the Trinity at all.

I mean, Samuel Clarke is called Sir Isaac Newton's bulldog because of his argument with Gottfried Leibniz.

He's called Arian or semi-Aryan.

Again, it's this interesting Arianism.

We say it's called anti-Trinitarianism.

That's what we now call things like Arianism.

But of course, they do believe in the Trinity.

It's just they don't believe in the equality of the divine figures in the Trinity.

That's the thing.

They're not radical modalists or whatever that don't believe in it, or Unitarians who wouldn't have the Trinity.

They're a particular type of Christian.

No, so Arianism, yeah, thrives for a little bit, but of course, Nicaea really has its great victory at what's now known as the Second Ecumenical Council, which is the one called by Theodosius in Constantinople in 381.

And that's why the Nicene Creed that we have is the Niceno-Constantinople Creed, because that then settles, goes further into the language of the Son, but also adds in the Holy Spirit and settles that.

It's a slightly longer creed, but that's the Nicene Orthodoxy is combined with that.

Now, of course, one last thing I should just mention, what then happens after all this is that a clause is added, which is called the folloque clause, which is to say the Holy Spirit doesn't just proceed from the Father, it proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Because again, it emphasizes the equality, right?

The Father and the Son are equal, so the Holy Spirit must come from both.

Now, the Eastern Church doesn't like that.

So what becomes the schism between East and West, where they finally divide in 1054, the schism is over the clause that is added to Nassene Creed about whether or not the equality of the Father and the Son is such that the Holy Ghost also proceeds from both Father and Son rather than just the Father.

So equality in the Trinity and Homoousion,

you can trace its roots back to the debate between Arius and Alexander, the Council of Nicaea, and ultimately the split between East and West.

It just continues throughout.

I mean, Dafith, this has been absolutely, well, it's been really, really interesting to learn all about this.

And there's a lot of deep theological debate as well to get through, but I think we succeeded in covering all the main points as well.

Dafith, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and explain this big anniversary in Christian history.

Okay, well thanks so much.

A really great pleasure to have been here.

Well, there you go.

There was Dr.

Dafith Daniel explaining the first council of Nicaea that occurred 1700 years ago, exploring key parts of the story such as the Arian controversy, the issue of Homoousion, and of course the Nicene Creed.

I hope you enjoyed the episode.

Thank you for listening.

Please follow the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.

If you leave us a rating as well, we'd really appreciate that.

Don't forget, you can also listen to us and all of History Hit's podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

And we're back live during a flex alert.

Dialed in on the thermostat.

Oh, we're pre-cooling before 4 p.m.

folks.

And that's the end of the third.

Time to set it back to 78 from 4 to 9 p.m.

Clutch move by the home team.

What's the game plan from here on out?

Laundry?

Not today.

Dishwasher?

Sidelined.

What a performance by Team California.

The power truly is ours.

During a flex alert, pre-cool, power down, and let's beat the heat together.

Coach, the energy out there felt different.

What changed for the team today?

It was the new game day scratches from the California lottery.

Play is everything.

Those games sent the team's energy through the roof.

Are you saying it was the off-field play that made the difference on the field?

Hey, a little play makes your day, and today, it made the game.

That's all for now.

Coach, one more question.

Play the new Los Angeles Chargers, San Francisco 49ers, and Los Angeles Rams Scratchers from the California Lottery.

A little play can make your day.

Please play responsibly, must be 18 years or older to purchase, play, or claim.