The Council of Nicaea

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Speaker 16 1700 years ago, an unprecedented council of early Christian bishops gathered at Nicaea, not far from present-day Istanbul.

Speaker 16 The council had been convened by the Roman Emperor Constantine, Constantine the Great, to address a theological dispute, a schism amongst early Christians that threatened to explode across the empire.

Speaker 16 Constantine wanted it sorted.

Speaker 16 At the center of the council was the issue of homoousion.

Speaker 16 This idea that the Father, God, the Son, who would be Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit were all equal.

Speaker 16 The two figureheads on opposing sides of this dispute were Alexander, the Bishop of Alexandria on one side, and Arius, a member of the clergy, on the other.

Speaker 16 Arius had the idea that there was almost this divine hierarchy, that the Son was subordinate to the Father.

Speaker 16 Alexander and his followers believed that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit were of equal weight and shared the same divine substance. This dispute was the so-called Arian controversy.

Speaker 16 The bishops had gathered at Nicaea to determine which was the correct doctrine and which was heresy. Their decision remains central to Christianity even today.

Speaker 16 It's the ancients on history hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.

Speaker 16 Joining me to explain the Council of Nicaea and why this ecumenical council was one of the most important events of early Christianity, I was delighted to interview Dr.

Speaker 16 Dafith Daniel, a lecturer in divinity at the University of St. Andrews.
We delve into the fascinating details of this early Christian theological dispute, and I really do hope you enjoy.

Speaker 16 Dafith, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Speaker 15 Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 16 And it's a special anniversary, it feels this year, because 2025, it's the 1700th anniversary of one of the most pivotal moments in Christian history, the Council of Nicaea.

Speaker 16 But this isn't just a dry theological debate.

Speaker 16 It's got power, politics, intense religious rivalry, all set against the the backdrop of the Roman Empire's first Christian emperor, Constantine the Great.

Speaker 16 So with that established, I mean, let's start with the basics.

Speaker 16 For listeners who might not be familiar with early Christianity, what was the Council of Nicaea and why does it still matter so much today?

Speaker 15 So the Council of Nicaea was a church council called by the Emperor Constantine in 325.

Speaker 15 It's the first ecumenical council, so worldwide council.

Speaker 15 In fact, the word ecumenical was coined by Eusebius of Caesarea, one of the early church historians who was there to describe this council worldwide.

Speaker 15 It's significant because it decides really two of the most sort of fundamental doctrines in Christianity that we've all sort of heard about, the Trinity and the Incarnation, but also because through that, it really is...

Speaker 15 the beginning of, well, one of two things, depending on your point of view.

Speaker 15 It's either the beginning of modern Christianity, Christianity is a public, visible religion, civic religion, or it's the beginning of the corruption of Christianity, because it involves this decision of what is orthodox and therefore what is heretical heretical and involves the state's action in that.

Speaker 16 Is it quite a definitive line that either you go the way that is agreed and that's orthodox or if you don't and anything else is seen as heresy?

Speaker 15 Yes, this is where the church council produces this Nicene Creed.

Speaker 15 something still read out today, this sort of foundational text. Now, it certainly is trying to clearly decide a distinction between orthodoxy and heresy.

Speaker 15 One of the interesting things is that it's not necessarily entirely clear what Nicaea has decided.

Speaker 15 These obscure phrases, homoousion, which I'm sure we'll get to, what does that really mean? Is that heretical itself, which was one perspective at the time?

Speaker 15 And then even though Nicaea, the council, makes this decision, in the immediate aftermath, really the opposing side, who are the Aryans, seem to come to the fore a bit more than the Nicenes.

Speaker 15 So it's part of a very vibrant struggle or discussion, depending how you want to phrase it, through this period.

Speaker 16 Well, we're going to be exploring all of that in detail. But Daph at the beginning as we kind of explore the background you also mentioned in passing a figure called Eusebius of Caesarea.

Speaker 16 Do we have many literary sources for this event in this time in history?

Speaker 15 Yeah it's striking is that because we don't really that's the I suppose that's the interesting thing because I think now we'd certainly I would think of a something like a church council of any kind would have all sorts of minutes taken and there'd be all these records and everything else.

Speaker 15 But that's not the case here. I mean it goes on for a couple of months, it seems.
We're not in time, maybe starts on the 20th of May, ends in July in Nicaea 325. Even that's not that clear.

Speaker 15 Our main sources for it are Eusebius of Caesarea, who is there, and also Athanasius of Alexandria.

Speaker 15 Obviously, they have their own particular point of view and perspective, which may well interfere with their account and recognition of what's gone on. But it's in their books.

Speaker 15 that we have their account of what went on, but also extracts from some of Constantine's letters, which follow the council, which go up to the church to tell the church what were decisions that have been made.

Speaker 15 And of course, other records of, for example, the writings of Arius.

Speaker 15 And part of the build-up to the controversy is sort of hundreds of letters being exchanged all over the place between these various bishops, theologians, and versions of those recorded in those historical accounts, as well as others later on.

Speaker 15 So there's Theodoretus of Cyrus and a couple of other sort of historians, more in the fifth century, who also have some sort of access to documents that don't seem to survive and only survive in those histories.

Speaker 15 Constantine also wrote other letters to try and prevent the council happening, to try and stop everyone arguing and to calm down. Again, we've got sort of versions of those letters.

Speaker 15 Whether they're how accurate they are is open to debate.

Speaker 16 Well, let's explore the context as to why this council is happening in 325 AD. Big question, Daphth.
What is happening in the Roman Empire and the church in those years running up to 325?

Speaker 15 Yeah, okay. So in the empire itself, and and so we're coming out of the so-called crisis of the third century, sort of unsettled period in Roman history, right?

Speaker 15 So we've had the plagues like Plague of Cyprian, which has wiped out 50% of Alexandria and things like that. And all these barbarian tribes attacking in the third century lead to unsettled situation.

Speaker 15 Various people declaring themselves Caesar all the time, right? You know, they win a battle when they're going to be the new emperor.

Speaker 15 So the crisis of the third century has led to, at the end of that period, the Tetrarchy, so tetrarchy system of government has been established by Diocletian, which has seemed to work sort of fairly well.

Speaker 15 You've got two Augusti, right, two senior emperors, East and West, then these junior Caesars beneath them, and that, of course, means you've got more imperial people closer to the action across the empire, to the troubled areas.

Speaker 15 And that seemed to work fairly well until 306, when the Augustus at that point, the leader Augustus in the West, Constantius, who is Constantine's father, dies.

Speaker 15 And that then leads really to set off to civil war in the empire between these rival Augusti and Caesars. They all stop fighting each other.

Speaker 15 Not least Constantine, of course, but another chap, Maxentius, who was one of the original Augusti, but he's been left out of the equation.

Speaker 15 And then this other fellow, Licinius, who'd been promoted above both Maxentius and Constantine, much to their consternation. And so they've all been fighting with each other.

Speaker 15 Maxentius is significant because it leads us to the Battle of Milvian Bridge, which I'm sure we'll come to. That's 312.
That's where Constantine gets rid of him, his half-brother.

Speaker 15 And then later on, Constantine gets rid of his other half-brother, Licinius, in the Battle of Chrysopolis in 324. So, period of civil war and settlement.

Speaker 15 Now, we've got this single man, Constantine, has become the sole emperor. So, a period of settlement has emerged there through periods of unrest.
That's the empire at large.

Speaker 15 The church, well, the church has also come through really its main periods of persecution. So, there's only two really empire-wide persecutions of the church.
One of them is Decius in the 250s.

Speaker 15 It's not aimed at Christianity as such. Decius wants a return to the worship of the ancient gods, and so that gathers the Christians up into it.

Speaker 15 As part of the Tetrarchy, however, Diocletian, Galarius, do have a concentrated persecution against Christians. This is called the Great Persecution.

Speaker 15 And that has continued until softly in 311 when Galarius releases an edict of toleration, but finally with the Edict of Milan, which comes out of Constantine and Licinius before they separate.

Speaker 15 So it's been a period of unrest, of unrest for the Empire and the Church, and persecution for Christians, which is part of this, does feed into Nicaea because part of the struggle, sort of internal politics of the church, and part of Constantine's concern is the fact that after those periods of persecution, you have certain Christian groups who are claiming to be the true church.

Speaker 15 And this is most famously with the Donatists in Africa.

Speaker 15 I mean, one of Constantine's first acts in 314, so even before he's been towards Nicera, is to have the Council of Arb, which is to try and quiet these Donatists.

Speaker 15 So the Donatists oppose people who apostatized during the persecution. They surrendered the Bible, surrendered their faith.
Now they want to come back into the church, and the Donatists refusing.

Speaker 15 And the same thing is happening in Egypt with a chap called Militius.

Speaker 15 And so the Militians are also this group that don't necessarily seem suspect in their orthodoxy, unlike Aries and others that we'll come to, but they are claiming to be the real church of the spiritual church, the church of saints.

Speaker 15 And so again, there's a threat of schism and separation.

Speaker 16 So already in those immediate decades before the Council of Nicaea and before we get to the figure of Arius, there are other figures, as you've highlighted there, the Donatists and so on, which are almost a symbol of what's to come, that there are divisions emerging, maybe catalyzed by these persecutions that have happened in recent history.

Speaker 16 There are divisions in how people are viewing Christianity and how they should approach it.

Speaker 15 Yes, yeah, exactly right. No, exactly right.
I mean, the status of Christianity, even as a religion in the empire, has been much debated, right?

Speaker 15 It's only in that Edict of Milan that Christianity actually becomes officially recognised as a religion. I mean, that's part of a significant stage, right?

Speaker 15 It's not even viewed as a religion at that point. And yes, as you say, there's unrest about the status of the church, status of Christianity.
Is it a suspect cult? Is it something serious?

Speaker 15 Even before this point, you've had the persecution of Decius in the 250s.

Speaker 15 After that, it's what's known as the little piece of the church, the sort of 40 years or so between that persecution and the great persecution.

Speaker 15 And then we've got this, the emperor Aurelian, and he is already off to try and decide a controversy about another heresy, which is still being debated at the time with the Nicene Church, which is known as Sabalianism, with this extraordinary character, Paul of Samusata, who's a bishop of Antioch, who claims the privilege of the Queen Zenobia, who's sort of annexed part of Egypt and Syria from the empire.

Speaker 15 So, yeah, already the empire has been involved in trying to decide what's going on.

Speaker 15 And of course, that goes back, you know, the earliest record that we have of Christianity even being discussed is pliny with trajan you know saying he's found these odd people you know i've tortured them anyway uh now what should i do with them now you know something yes he's like um don't go looking for the christians but if they do you can execute them or something like that

Speaker 16 that sounds right they've got a very um interesting relationship with the christians early on it seems like in regards to the events of the roman empire up to the nicene creed some key events and things to highlight as you have highlighted already daphyth is at the end of the third century crisis, the emperor Diocletian comes along, creates the ruler for the Tetrarchy, those two senior emperors and those two junior emperors.

Speaker 16 Seems to work for a period of time, but then after Diocletian goes, the next successor is Constantius Chlorus, he dies early on. His son, Constantine, is proclaimed emperor in 306.

Speaker 16 And very quickly, it all starts falling apart.

Speaker 16 And you get those civil wars, like Constantine versus Maxentius, and so on, ultimately leading to Constantine ditching the Tetrarchy completely and becoming a sole emperor again by the time we get to the Council of Nicaea.

Speaker 16 So let's focus on Constantine's career a bit to get more context into his adoption or his relationship with Christianity by that time, because it seems it's been 13 years or so, hasn't it, by 325 and his the beginning of his relationship with Christianity.

Speaker 16 I feel this is where we probably want to explore the Milvian Bridge and why that's important.

Speaker 15 It's an extraordinary story, isn't it? And much debated how much truth there is in this and how it relates to wider sort of political motivations for Christian conversion as well as anything else.

Speaker 15 But Constantine is about to fight this battle against Maxentius and has this vision of a sign in the sky and this line in this sign, conquer, and later has a dream, a dream of Christ coming to him.

Speaker 15 This is how it's relayed by Lactantius and Eusebius of Caesarea, both of whom knew Constantine personally.

Speaker 15 And the sign in question is the Cairo symbol. So the Cairo symbol is just the first two letters of Christos in Greek.
It's an X with a big P sticking out the top of the X.

Speaker 15 And Constantine makes this his symbol, right? He puts it on his standards, on his shield, and fights with this and wins an extraordinary victory.

Speaker 15 It's not clear why Maxentius comes out to fight even at such an exposed area and so wins.

Speaker 15 And so because that Constantine thanks the Christian God, you know, dedicates the victory to it, thinks it's come from that, and carries on using this symbol.

Speaker 15 It's said that Licinius lived in great fear of it, you know, at this later battle, Chrysopolis 324. It's sort of pagan symbols of Licinius against this Cairo symbol.

Speaker 15 So, what's his real view of Christianity? I mean, it's clearly, it seems to have been a monotheist, right?

Speaker 15 So, it seems to have believed in one God, and seems like a lot of people in the ancient world too, and not least Christians themselves, to have had the view that you may have sort of natural revelation of God

Speaker 15 and then further revelation of Him. So, there's no inconsistency to say, well, the Sun God is revealed as actually being this other one God, this Christian God.

Speaker 15 And then you take Christianity very seriously. I mean, as I mentioned, the Council of Isles very early on when he's deciding about Odonatus, but, you know, St.

Speaker 15 Peter's Basilica right in Rome, that's 318. Starts to build that, then 330, establishes Constantinople as a new capital.
That's sort of festooned with all its Christian buildings. It's a vibrant...

Speaker 15 pluralist sense of religion, isn't it? That religion can appear in different forms as long as it's peaceful.

Speaker 15 And that the particular religion that you worship in this day of Christianity of Constantine doesn't have to, he doesn't have to repeal the Edict of Milan, which is about freedom of religious worship, and convert to a Christian.

Speaker 15 That's sort of what I'm trying to get across, I suppose.

Speaker 16 It seems to be a bit more toleration at that time, doesn't it?

Speaker 16 And I remember interviewing Professor David Potter, and he was saying how with Constantine, it almost seemed like he was hedging his divine bets at times.

Speaker 16 Patronage to Christians, but also building temples and churches. So doing both things at hand.
But as time goes on, as you say, that endures.

Speaker 15 So by the time we get to 325 AD does he feel responsibility is he the one who calls the council together or what do we know about that yes so he does call the council and seems to preside over it in some form interjecting the debate so far as we can tell he feels bound to call it as far as we can tell from the documents we have from the time it's not that he's very interested again back to your point about hedging the bets not he's very interested in the theological question that's at issue in fact he thinks it's ridiculous as far as we tell that you know they should stop messing around and introducing disorder debate over this sort of minute and obscure, you know, theologians of any age, I suppose, can find something to disagree over.

Speaker 15 They need not to bother with that sort of stuff just to keep peace in the church. So his interest definitely in peaceableness, in order.
I mean, Eusebius dubs him bishop of those outside the church.

Speaker 15 So he's not an official churchman, not baptised, of course, as he isn't until he's just before he dies. But he's responsible for those who are believers.

Speaker 15 Another way of putting it I suppose is that what Constantine represents is the laity, right? The voice of the laity coming into Christian affairs.

Speaker 15 They should be represented, they should have a sense of it, because you can't allow theologians to entangle things in endless debates, especially when those debates spill over into civic disorder.

Speaker 16 So, is it a case then that Constantine hears that there are these divisions emerging in the Christian church and he's worried about dissent, about trouble within the empire if it's not sorted?

Speaker 15 Yeah, that's right, that's it. So,

Speaker 15 Arius is a priest in Alexandria, so just a priest, and he objects to what his bishop Alexander is teaching. So he objects to it.

Speaker 15 And he makes his objections very clear and then writes to loads of other people to say that this patriarch is a heretic basically. And

Speaker 15 should we really be following him? Should we actually maybe organise our own deacons? It seems that some followers of Arius are even sort of ordaining their own deacons and so on.

Speaker 15 So a threat to that order, right, that principle of order within the church. So then both Alexander and Arius are writing all over the place to sort of hundreds of other bishops across,

Speaker 15 Syria, Libya, Egypt, Turkey, in modern-day terms, writing to all of them to try and get them on their side.

Speaker 15 And of course, then they are then appealing to imperial power, imperial authority to help try and decide this debate. And so in the end, Arius is exiled.

Speaker 15 And 3-2-1, he's thrown out, but he doesn't wish to be thrown out. So he appeals back.
And Constantine says, look, can't you just both, you know, shake hands and call it a draw or whatever and move on.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 15 then they have their own individual synods to try and decide the answer to the question. And that can't decide it.

Speaker 15 so then finally constantine says right well he's going to organize something just to decide this question once and for all this question is caused disorder through africa through turkey whatever else if people are saying that this is something that they're going to disagree about then we better try and settle the question and that's why it's the first ecumenical council so it seems to be 315 bishops extraordinary number of people and that would then include thousands of priests like brought in from across the empire only five from the west interestingly most of these are eastern bishops only five from the west But you know, they're all coming in to try and decide this question.

Speaker 15 Just if we can decide this question, then maybe everyone can just move on and stop arguing about it.

Speaker 15 I think Constantine's point seems to be: if you want to debate some minute point of theology, then you can.

Speaker 15 But the idea of then threatening a schism, really, which is what this is, threatening the church become divided into different types of different churches to rival each other, then that's not going to help simple battle and disagreement.

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Speaker 16 David, before we explore the Council of Nicaea, I hope you don't mind if we delve into a bit more detail about what Arius and Alexander were disagreeing about and really, really get that sorted for us so we can nail that down.

Speaker 16 And also, I guess, first of all, why it's happening in Alexandria? You mentioned there's a patriarch of Alexandria.

Speaker 16 So set the scene of Alexandria at this time in Egypt and the strength of Christianity there. And then

Speaker 16 what is the root of this disagreement that erupts between Arius on one side and Alexander on the other?

Speaker 15 It's incredibly interesting, isn't it, important to remember that we've got Paul's letters as the earliest documents of the Christian religion, and these are writing to these churches in the Eastern world, right?

Speaker 15 Fesus, Corinth, in Greece, and so on.

Speaker 15 So really the Eastern Empire, which later will become the Byzantium Empire, is the start of Christianity, where Christianity comes from and grows out into the West.

Speaker 15 So, just fewer bishops in the West, fewer Christians in the West. This really is a thriving Greco-Christian culture in these areas of the world, Asia Minor, Alexandria, and so on.

Speaker 15 And so, later on, we're going to have Jerusalem as a important place, then Constantinople, a little bit later, an important place.

Speaker 15 But at the moment, we've got Antioch in Syria and Alexandria in Egypt, as these really key posts in the Christian world.

Speaker 15 And this is where a concentration of bishops are, then across these areas, metropolitan bishops. And then they have their own priests and everything else.

Speaker 15 The estimate is really that by 300, 10% of the empire is Christian, so sort of 10 million people. And then by the middle of the fourth century, you've got about half of the empire is Christian.

Speaker 15 So, you know, growing numbers and large numbers to debate these issues with each other. The actual debate, the actual debate between the two,

Speaker 15 we've got the Trinity, right? We all know the Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. We've got an issue here then of the Father and the Son.
Are they all equal? Are they equal?

Speaker 15 Is there any differences between them? What's the difference between the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost? Are they the same and different?

Speaker 15 If you're saying they're really different, then you're saying you've got three gods. So you don't want to have that.
You don't want to be a polytheist. So you want to connect them in some way.

Speaker 15 So how are you going to connect them and bring them together?

Speaker 15 Now, Aries' claim is really straightforward semantics, is that the Son must be subordinate to the Father, otherwise it's not a Son and it's not a father.

Speaker 15 So, his claim, Arianism, is a form of a particular viewpoint that we call monarchianism. So, monarchianism comes from monarch, right? Monos, one, and then arke, principle, rule.

Speaker 15 So, one principle rule.

Speaker 15 A belief then that God is one, that God is not just a being, God is being, God is everything, God is all, God is this essence beyond description, a particular substance, a divine substance, a deity, something above all things.

Speaker 15 He's created a world completely different from it, that's utterly transcendent from it.

Speaker 15 Now, the Christian religion then poses a great threat for these Greek philosophically minded figures like Arius and others, that you've got this principle of God.

Speaker 15 How can you then explain that it becomes incarnate? Arius solves it in an interesting way. So Arius' point is that there's the God, God of substance, God that becomes a father when he begets a son.

Speaker 15 So Arius' tagline is that there was a time that the sun was not. The sun is not eternal because he hasn't existed existed always, unlike God.

Speaker 15 So what the sun is for Arius, in effect, is divine, but not the deity, not the Godhead. It's another level or ranking of divinity between the two.

Speaker 15 And so it means the sun is the creator of the world, is the mediator of the world, can become incarnate to save the world, but you leave the father as pure Godhead, if you like, above it.

Speaker 15 So that allows Arius to solve that problem.

Speaker 16 So the Son is Jesus, is it? This idea that Jesus wasn't there at the beginning, but he's created by God for his mission on earth and that.

Speaker 15 Yeah, that's right. So the Son is Jesus.
So the Son becomes incarnate then as Jesus in the world, and then can exist to save it in the world. So, I mean, let's put it in these sort of terms, right?

Speaker 15 The Son is at home with the Father in heaven or whatever, right? Now, the Son then decides to leave that place and become incarnate as a particular human being.

Speaker 15 which is Jesus, and then acts to save it.

Speaker 15 Well, I mean, one thing I suppose to emphasize about Arianism is that it shouldn't be confused with a later heresy called Sassinianism, which denies the divinity of Jesus.

Speaker 15 I mean, this is still saying that Jesus is the Son of God and is divine. It's just he's a different level of God.
He's not the highest God.

Speaker 16 So that is Arius' position. So how does that differ then from Alexander's?

Speaker 15 Yeah, okay. So what's the problem with Arius? Well, Arius is suggesting what's called heteroousio, right?

Speaker 15 So usio is substance and hetra is different, that the father and the son are different different substances, different divine substances.

Speaker 15 So one problem there for Alexander is that that seems to return us to polytheism. We've got more than one God, more than one divine substance.
So this is where you get then the homoousion viewpoint.

Speaker 15 What that is saying is that the father and the son are the same substance. They're equal.
Now,

Speaker 15 what's the problem with saying that? Why is that such a problem? That seems to be okay, right? Say they're the same, they're equal.

Speaker 15 Well, the problem for Arius, why Arius views it as a heresy, is that then then what you're saying is that the Father becomes incarnate and dies on a cross. And you shouldn't be saying that, right?

Speaker 15 Because you should be able to distinguish something about these persons. There must be different persons.

Speaker 15 In Arius' own light, he's actually being the most Christian because he's preserving that there's three different persons in the Godhead.

Speaker 15 Whereas for their opponent, Alexander, they're being really Christians because they're preserving the fact that Christ is fully divine in the same sense as the Father.

Speaker 15 And so that's why they want to push that homoousion language.

Speaker 16 Well, let's now move on to the debate. So you've already highlighted how this explodes out of Alexandria.

Speaker 16 It reaches the Emperor Constantine and he starts getting worried that it will affect concord and harmony in the empire.

Speaker 16 So the creating of this council, and as you've also highlighted, this feels unprecedented. It doesn't feel like this has happened before, has it?

Speaker 16 When the council is called and the people get together, what should we be imagining at Nicaea? What should we imagine with this council and how it looks?

Speaker 15 Well, it's a great question because no one's entirely sure. I mean, it's like open to our imagination a little bit.
I mean, and I find it very difficult to imagine.

Speaker 15 It must be the most extraordinary thing ever. I mean, so Constantine pays for it all to bring all of these bishops together.
The discussion is in Greek.

Speaker 15 Constantine, when he speaks, speaks in Latin, it seems for the most part, rather than Greek, although he does understand Greek and occasionally talks in Greek.

Speaker 16 And he's actively there as well. He's not

Speaker 16 dictating it from afar. Okay.

Speaker 15 No, no, he's actively there. So he opens the council.
So you can imagine these, I mean, in effect, thousands of people gather gathered together in Nicaea.

Speaker 15 He moves it to Nicaea just so he can attend, because that's closer to where he is.

Speaker 15 And, you know, Eusebius and Athanasius give these extraordinary glowing descriptions of Constantine opening the debate.

Speaker 15 You know, Eusebius is describing this sort of transfigured figure, right, sort of in this glowing gold, opening the discussion.

Speaker 15 Then what it is is really heated argument for months between these bishops and others. They are heavily disagreeing.

Speaker 15 As you alluded to earlier, they're not always clear whether in actual fact they are agreeing rather than disagreeing.

Speaker 15 There's one great story which seems sadly not to be true, that Father Christmas himself, Saint Nicholas, who maybe was not even actually there, but he was around and was a Nicene, that he was at the council and sort of biffed Arius on the nose.

Speaker 15 He sort of slapped him across the face for his views, which says Father Christmas, you wouldn't have imagined it.

Speaker 15 So yeah, a really heated, heated discussion that each side feels that their view is the orthodoxy, right? Should be the view, and that each other view is really in danger of doing something.

Speaker 15 You know, one view feels it threatens the divinity of Christ and therefore salvation, the other that it really diminishes our idea of what God and the Godhead is.

Speaker 15 And then there are even compromises suggested. And according to Eusebius of Caesarea, it's actually the Constantine himself who rejects those sorts of compromises.
He insists on Homosion.

Speaker 15 Constantine seems to prefer that sort of language of clarity, just say, well, this is the point of view, and that's it.

Speaker 15 And then in the end, they all have to sign this creed, sign their agreement to a Nicene Creed, which only two bishops don't do secundus of ptolemaes and theonis of mammaris i think they're those two they don't sign they're the only two don't sign and they're deposed as a result aries is exiled they're exiled then constantine at the end you know we decide homouson that's the end of the debate we've settled it all and then he issues aries' work to be burned you know you're not meant to support his his works not meant to even own them or have them this is now the orthodoxy and is this all written down then if it was important to then cover this in the nicene creed because what is this and is is almost as you say the kind of the confirmation written down of what they've agreed that's right yeah and so that is the nicene creed so it is emphasizing the divinity of jesus as the son incarnate and that the divinity of jesus is equal with that of the father that the god and the father of are one and so this is where it says you know the substance of the father god from god light from light true god from true god all that sort of language and begotten not made that later on becomes you know eternally begotten to emphasize that god the son is also internal And then further to emphasize that, you know, the one substance, right?

Speaker 15 Homo.

Speaker 15 The Son is from the substance of the Father, from this Godhead, that divine substance, but it's also one with that substance.

Speaker 15 It's really emphasized the fact that the Son is divine and equal, and therefore Jesus is divine and equal. And so it is, you know, that great Aryan tagline, you know, there was a time when he was not.

Speaker 15 So in other words, the Son was born at a certain point, was made. Well, that's anathema.
There was not a time when he wasn't, and so on. As I say, the Holy Spirit is just mentioned as an aside, right?

Speaker 15 And the Holy Spirit, so that's still needed to be settled. And then this fundamental question, right? Okay, we're clear now.
There's a Trinity. The Son is equal with the Father.
They're all divine.

Speaker 15 They're Homoous on the same substance. How can Christ be both human and divine? I won't go to that now because that's a huge other thing.
But when that is decided, this language of homoousion returns.

Speaker 15 So, you know, what does Nicaea settle in itself? It gives great clarity as a substantive statement.

Speaker 15 with a controversial word, and then it still leaves open many questions how God can be three persons in one.

Speaker 15 But then, part of the point then is that maybe some things just have to be left a mystery, right? Maybe things are not inaccessible to human reasoning and everything else.

Speaker 15 That's part of the viewpoint here. And that seems to be Constantine's view in his letters.

Speaker 15 We've got a letter of Alexander's when he's complaining about Arius to another Alexander of Byzantium, and just he's saying that Arius is straying into things that are beyond human reason, right?

Speaker 15 So there's certain mysteries that have to be left there. That might be part of the argument.

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Speaker 16 So at the Council of Nicaea, they ultimately come up with the Nicene Creed and the understanding of homoousion and being three different parts.

Speaker 16 Is there anything else big that we haven't covered that is achieved at the Council of Nicaea alongside the Nicene Creed and the condemning of Arianism or of what Arius believes is heresy?

Speaker 15 It does do much more than the Creed, which is part of why the debates went on for months about a lot of things.

Speaker 15 I mean, even celibacy of priests is something that is whether priests can be married is something that's being heavily discussed as well. So one thing is the date of Easter.

Speaker 15 Again, the idea of uniformity. It doesn't work, of course, because East and West still have different dates for Easter following that because they date the spring equinox at different times.

Speaker 15 But that was the idea that you could move away from the Jewish calendar, but also try and get everyone to agree when they celebrate easter also sunday establishes the day of rest one thing that constantine does you know one thing that comes out of the nicer council is not just the creed it's also the canons this is the beginning of canon law right church law the first stems of canon law what they're a lot about is about church structure organization how do you organize things so a lot of these canons are setting rules for how you decide who's going to be a bishop It's setting rules that you, as a deacon and a priest, you have to follow the direction of your particular bishop in your area.

Speaker 15 That if you're exiled or anathematized in one area of the church, one province, one bishopric, you can't just move next door, right, and then become carry on being a priest over there.

Speaker 15 So, a lot of that is decided laid down as that canon law. You know, I mentioned by celibacy of priests.

Speaker 15 I mean, it's decided that priests can remain married there, they just can't live with any woman that they want to live with, or isn't of upright character, I think is how they put it.

Speaker 15 Also, about whether eunuchs can be priests, and it's decided they can be, but you can't castrate yourself, you know, you can't willfully do that.

Speaker 15 Um, but if you've already gone through that process, you can become a priest and so on. So, those are some of the other things that come out of Nicaea and laid down and sent round to churches.

Speaker 15 And that's why we have those to survive, right? They're sort of gathered together, and they're the things that are sent out and laid down and kept.

Speaker 15 I mean, we talk about this as the first ecumenical council, and Eusebius Caesar describes it in those terms. But, you know, so after this, and even before this, there were so many synods.

Speaker 15 And, you know, I've mentioned Constantius, the son of Constantine. He tries to have lots of his own councils to go in a more Aryan direction, to reject a Nicaea.

Speaker 15 They're not then classed anymore anymore as ecumenical councils, right? Because they don't fit this list of what's decided as what is Orthodox. But no, the Nicaea is doing a lot of different things.

Speaker 15 And you can see there this laying down of maybe centralization isn't necessarily the right word, but the church has, what has the Christian church been?

Speaker 15 I mean, the earliest churches that survive are in sort of from the 230s, these house churches, right?

Speaker 15 More informal churches, private gatherings, you know, but now we've got Constantine is building churches, a visible display of christianity you can see already there's this huge network of bishops i mean staggering really how christianity was already organized in in this way even before constantine's conversion and so really the structure was already in place but now it's being more formularized right there's a sort of formal idea of what can be gone you know once there's a rule once the rule is decided you can say well look you're disobeying this rule we all agreed this right we got together we agreed it and so let's all follow it it does seem as if it's an important moment in the changing relationship between the church and the state doesn't it and especially also with the emperor constantine's presence as well as an overarching figure.

Speaker 16 I mean, Daphne, this has been brilliant, but just to wrap it up with the aftermath. So Arianism, it doesn't disappear after the council.

Speaker 15 It doesn't disappear. No, it doesn't disappear.

Speaker 15 I mean, it has immediate afterlife in that it becomes more successful in the short term because Constantius, Constantine's son, was educated by Eusebius of Nicomedia, who was the great Arian defender at Nicaea.

Speaker 15 And he's greatly embedded in the imperial court. And it's part really of exiling all sorts of Nicene people.

Speaker 15 Athanasius goes, Eustathius of Antioch goes, you know, Narcellus of Anciro, all these figures who are nice, pro-Nicene figures, actually get into trouble and lose their sees for a while.

Speaker 15 And so actually, the Arians gain ground. And it seems that

Speaker 15 Constantius is more interested in it. And so Jerome has this line later on.
He says, the world groaned to wake up and find itself Arian. That really Arianism was this short-term successor for a while.

Speaker 15 Then, of course, you've got Julian the Apostate and that sort of false part. And then we go back to Nicene Emperor's Jovian and then finally Thadosius.

Speaker 15 I mean, also, Arianism has an interesting afterlife in two very different contexts.

Speaker 15 One, I always find really interesting is that through, I'm going to get his name right now, but it's Olfila, a priest ordained by this Eusebius of Nicanidea, he is the apostle to the Goths.

Speaker 15 And so the Visigoths and the Vandals who sack Rome are actually Arians. They're Arian Christians at that time.
But no, Arianism survives. And of course, you know, some great figures are Arian.

Speaker 15 The most famous... Arian really is Isaac Newton, sir, Isaac Newton is Arian.
And he despises Athanasius.

Speaker 15 He thinks Athanasius was the Antichrist, that Nicaea, and obviously this was the beginning of the end of Christianity, has been destroyed from being a pure biblical religion, where you look at this scripture, what it's conveying to you, to something that is corrupted by an immoral murderer and power-seeking Athanasius away from it.

Speaker 15 And of course, you know, he wasn't public about that because of the Test Incorporation Acts.

Speaker 15 You know, in Britain, from the middle of the 17th century to the middle of the 19th century, you have the Test Incorporation Acts, which meant you had to sign up to not being an Aryan, to believing in the Trinity in the Nicene Way, to go to university, well, in Oxford and Cambridge, to have political office, to join the church.

Speaker 15 And this was to get rid of a sort of variant of Arianism, like Unitarianism, which just don't believe in the Trinity at all.

Speaker 15 I mean, Samuel Clarke is called Sir Isaac Newton's bulldog because of his argument with Gottfried Leibniz. He's called Arian or semi-Aryan.
Again, it's this interesting Arianism.

Speaker 15 We say it's called anti-Trinitarianism. That's what we now call things like Arianism.
But of course, they do believe in the Trinity.

Speaker 15 It's just they don't believe in the equality of the divine figures in the Trinity. That's the thing.

Speaker 15 They're not radical modalists or whatever that don't believe in it, or Unitarians who wouldn't have the Trinity. They're a particular type of Christian.

Speaker 15 No, so Arianism, yeah, thrives for a little bit, but of course, Nicaea really has its great victory at what's now known as the Second Ecumenical Council, which is the one called by Theodosius in Constantinople in 381.

Speaker 15 And that's why the Nicene Creed that we have is the Niceno-Constantinople Creed, because that then settles, goes further into the language of the Son, but also adds in the Holy Spirit and settles that.

Speaker 15 It's a slightly longer creed, but that's the Nicene Orthodoxy is combined with that.

Speaker 15 Now, of course, one last thing I should just mention, what then happens after all this is that a clause is added, which is called the folloque clause, which is to say the Holy Spirit doesn't just proceed from the Father, it proceeds from the Father and the Son.

Speaker 15 Because again, it emphasizes the equality, right? The Father and the Son are equal, so the Holy Spirit must come from both. Now, the Eastern Church doesn't like that.

Speaker 15 So what becomes the schism between East and West, where they finally divide in 1054, the schism is over the clause that is added to Nassene Creed about whether or not the equality of the Father and the Son is such that the Holy Ghost also proceeds from both Father and Son rather than just the Father.

Speaker 16 So equality in the Trinity and Homoousion,

Speaker 16 you can trace its roots back to the debate between Arius and Alexander, the Council of Nicaea, and ultimately the split between East and West. It just continues throughout.

Speaker 16 I mean, Dafith, this has been absolutely, well, it's been really, really interesting to learn all about this.

Speaker 16 And there's a lot of deep theological debate as well to get through, but I think we succeeded in covering all the main points as well.

Speaker 16 Dafith, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast and explain this big anniversary in Christian history.

Speaker 15 Okay, well thanks so much. A really great pleasure to have been here.

Speaker 16 Well, there you go. There was Dr.

Speaker 16 Dafith Daniel explaining the first council of Nicaea that occurred 1700 years ago, exploring key parts of the story such as the Arian controversy, the issue of Homoousion, and of course the Nicene Creed.

Speaker 16 I hope you enjoyed the episode.

Speaker 2 Thank you for listening.

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Speaker 16 That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

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