Obelisks

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Speaker 9 Obelisks.

Speaker 9 These great tapering stone pillars that today can be seen across the world. From New York to London, to Rome to Egypt.
And it was ancient Egypt that was the origin point for these iconic monuments.

Speaker 9 That is what we're going to be exploring today. The story of obelisks in ancient Egypt.
Why they were built, how they were built, and how popular these monuments became for people throughout history.

Speaker 9 It's the ancients on history hit. I'm Tristan Hughes, your host.
Joining me today are Dr. Stephen Snape and Professor Joyce Tilsley, two wonderful Egyptologists who are also husband husband and wife.

Speaker 9 Now every once in a while we release special episodes that feature not one but two interviewees and Joyce and Stephen felt like a great combination to talk about obelisks.

Speaker 9 What they are, why the ancient Egyptians built them and, perhaps most interestingly of all, how they went about building them.

Speaker 9 As you are about to hear, there's some really interesting information surviving from Egypt that has revealed these amazing insights into how these great monuments were created and how big a task it was.

Speaker 9 I really do hope you enjoy.

Speaker 9 Stephen, Joyce, it is a pleasure to have you both on the podcast for the first time ever. The husband and wife of Egyptology, welcome.

Speaker 10 Thank you. Thank you.
Good to be here.

Speaker 9 The topic we're talking about today is obelisks. We've done the Great Pyramid with yourself before, Joyce.
We've covered ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses.

Speaker 9 But I've always been fascinated by obelisks because in Britain at least, you easily see them in every village, town and city today. But their origin point is ancient Egypt thousands of years ago.

Speaker 11 Yes, absolutely. They're a classic Egyptian artefact.
You know, if you think about ancient Egypt, you think about pyramids and you think about obelisks.

Speaker 11 And yes, but actually, people don't know a great deal about them. They're well worth exploring.

Speaker 9 And so what do we mean? by an obelisk. No such thing as a silly question.
I mean, what kind of shape should we be thinking of?

Speaker 10 Okay, well, the classic obelisk has a square base. It is tall, tapers very slightly as it goes up, then dramatically goes to a point at the top in a small pyramid or pyramidian.

Speaker 10 So you should be thinking of something which is classically very tall, has four distinct sides, which in most cases were decorated with either scenes or more particularly Egyptian hieroglyphs, which tell us a bit about who built them and what they were for.

Speaker 9 And is that tapering, is that an important part of the whole process?

Speaker 11 Yes, absolutely. Another important part is it's made from one block of stone in its classical form.

Speaker 11 I mean today people build things out of masonry and call it an obelisk but in ancient Egypt it would be one block of stone.

Speaker 9 And in regards to that, would they vary, I'm guessing, in their height, the kind of mathematical proportions behind them?

Speaker 10 If you want a taller obelisk, would the ancient Egyptian architect or whoever have to think more about the kind of of proportions and how high they can go and how much the taper would be and how much weight the square base could could have i'm guessing there's a lot of thought behind that the kind of how tall your obelisk could be yeah i think i think that that's right i mean it's it is a critical thing because the idea seems to be for the classic obelisks the really big ones that stood up in front of temples the idea is that they're probably as big as you can get them but the problem with that is you're dealing with a huge and heavy heavy piece of stone which is nonetheless quite thin so it's it's got problems in terms of transporting it putting it up in place it's something which is you know it's a bit of a paradox in a way that it's something which is huge and heavy yet also really quite fragile so yeah when it comes to planning the size of the obelisk the sort of factors which need to be borne in mind is, yeah, get it as big as you can, but make sure it's not so tall that it becomes too narrow and therefore you've got problems of it of it perhaps snapping or breaking as you're transporting the thing so yeah i think i think it needs a lot of lot of thought particularly as i say for the for the classic really big ones which were designed to be seen for you know huge huge distances and erected in front of temples yeah because if you're a king who wants to erect an obelisk um you're doing this to show that you have absolute control over your environment and your workers and everything so you absolutely do want to have it as big as you can get it because you want to impress everybody.

Speaker 11 But as Stephen says, there's a huge problem involved in this. You just can't go on infinitely up.
It would be very, very difficult indeed, especially to transport it and erect it.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I think that's an important point. The idea that this is something which is built by a king to impress people.

Speaker 10 I think part of the idea of it being a really difficult thing to do because of those technical problems is part of the allure in the way that a king who can do this is effectively saying you know look at me i'm so powerful i can do something which is really really difficult but i'm doing it for for a number of reasons in particular i'm doing it for for for for gods and and also to show my own power so the fact that it is a really difficult thing to do is part of the whole idea and of course if you can do it it shows that you have the support of the gods because the gods have helped you to do it.

Speaker 11 So by actually doing it, you're enforcing not only your own power and logistical power, if you like, your command over the resources of Egypt, but you're also showing that the gods are on your side.

Speaker 11 Because if they didn't want you to be able to erupt it, you wouldn't be able to do it.

Speaker 9 Well, you guys have brilliantly kind of preempted my next question that was going to be, I mean, why did the ancient Egyptians build obelisks?

Speaker 9 But from what you were saying there about, you know, the Pharaoh projecting their power, but also

Speaker 9 their proximity to the gods as well. I mean, was that just one reason as to why the ancient Egyptians built obelisks?

Speaker 9 Were there people who weren't pharaohs who built obelisks and they wanted to do it for other reasons? Were there more than one reason sometimes as to why an obelisk would be built in ancient Egypt?

Speaker 10 Well, yes, there are multiple layers of reasons why you would build an obelisk.

Speaker 10 The ones that we're really talking about at the moment or have so far are the classic really big ones, you know, the ones which are 20 meters plus.

Speaker 10 They go up in front of temples some really quite small ones will be put in front of tombs by private individuals but they all seem to have the basic idea is that they're connected to the sun god because although i've been talking about we've been talking about them in terms of really difficult things kings can do and to impress people with their power they do have really quite specific again I'm talking about the big ones, really specific localities which are in front of temples, but especially temples which are connected to sun gods.

Speaker 10 And that means that the really big ones only actually appear in two locations in Egypt.

Speaker 10 One is Heliopolis near Cairo, which was the ancient centre of the sun god Ra, and the other in the south of Egypt at Thebes, modern Luxor, where you have the temple of Amun-Ra, who is also an important sun god.

Speaker 10 So the really big ones that we see both still standing today and more particularly which have been taken down and erected other places, the big ones came from those two locations because they were so intimately connected with the sun and the obelisk itself can be seen as a solar symbol as if you like well two things one it's the rays of the sun shining down on the earth and and the obelisk is

Speaker 10 is that idea of something intangible made solid, but also it's something which allows the kings to show that they're in contact with the gods because they're creating something which can reach up and touch the sky.

Speaker 10 And we know this, and we know this because they tell us.

Speaker 10 The reason we know so much about obelisks compared to you know other standing stones that you get in different parts of the world is they're covered in text and they tell us what they're there for.

Speaker 10 And that solar connection, the connection to the sun, is absolutely vital when it comes to creating those big obelisks.

Speaker 9 I didn't realize that it was just kind of Luxor and Heliolopolis as those main areas. Do we know of many big obelisks that have survived? I mean, I mean, can we count them on two hands?

Speaker 9 Or were there many big ancient Egyptian obelisks in those two locations?

Speaker 11 There weren't that many,

Speaker 11 but there were quite a few. The first thing to remember is that they come in pairs.
So you wouldn't

Speaker 11 always raise one obelisk. Quite a few people did two.

Speaker 11 So that confuses it. And you get get some pharaohs, like the female pharaoh Hetshepsut, she raised at least four.
And she then tried to do an absolutely massive one. We think it was her.

Speaker 11 What we have is in a quarry at Aswan, the broken remains of an obelisk that would have been the tallest one to be raised in Egypt had it not cracked in half, which must have been really, really, really frustrating to everybody concerned.

Speaker 11 You have some people who raise several. You have some people who raise, as far as we know, just one.
And lots of pharaohs, of course, don't raise any.

Speaker 11 But they have, as Stephen said, they've been dispersed. The Romans in particular were very keen on obelisks and they moved them around.
So they move them around within Egypt.

Speaker 11 So, for example, the two obelisks that we now call Cleopatra's needles, there's one in New York and there's one in London, they're not connected to Cleopatra in any way, but they were brought from Alexandria.

Speaker 11 because that's where they were standing at the time that they were found, but they weren't raised in Alexandria.

Speaker 11 So we have these obelisks sort of slightly moving around and the Romans in particular moved a lot of Egyptian obelisks to Rome. So there are quite a few actually in Rome.

Speaker 11 Yeah, so you have to you have to look all around the world to count them.

Speaker 10 Yeah, in fact there are a lot more standing in Rome than there are in Egypt. In Egypt there are just of the big ones there are four still standing in Egypt.

Speaker 10 In Rome there are over a dozen, not all of them the very big ones. But as Joyce says, they moved around quite a bit.
And some just seem to have disappeared.

Speaker 10 As Joyce said, Hachepsut says she raised four, two of them, with no idea where they are. King Aminhotep III, who is one of the great kings, you would expect to have raised obelisks.

Speaker 10 And we know from other texts connected to quarries that he did have several, perhaps somewhere between six and eight obelisks.

Speaker 10 We've no idea where they are. So some may have collapsed and still need to be discovered.
Some, as Joyce said, have been transported to other places.

Speaker 10 Some may have been re-inscribed by later kings, because that's always a possibility. Because some obelisks that we have have inscriptions of several kings, and some they make no bones about it.

Speaker 10 Another big obelisk erecting king, Tuthmosis III,

Speaker 10 he seems to have started several that weren't finished.

Speaker 10 In fact, one which was erected by one of his successors, Tuthmosis IV, he says he found it had been lying around in a quarry for decades and he just finished it off and put it up.

Speaker 10 So some of these obelisks have quite complicated histories in terms of who started them, who finished them, then subsequently been transported to several different locations.

Speaker 9 Well, you mentioned there in that answer, I mean, earlier on talking about ancient Rome and how these obelisks, I mean, they have spread much further beyond Egypt over the past few hundred years.

Speaker 9 and indeed also in antiquity too with the Romans.

Speaker 9 But before we get to that part of the story, I'd like us to go back to the whole building process because you also mentioned in passing, I mean, these quarries and this location of Aswan.

Speaker 9 So what is this place called Aswan and why is it so intertwined as this origin point in ancient Egyptian history for the building of obelisks?

Speaker 11 Aswan is the traditional southern border of Egypt. So it's as far away from the northern sites that you could you would expect to go down the Nile without being interrupted with cataracts.

Speaker 11 So it's a long way away from Heliopolis, and it's quite a long way away from Thebes as well. But it has hard stone.
Egypt has building stone.

Speaker 11 It's got limestone and it's got sandstone, limestone in the north and sandstone further to the south. But it doesn't have a lot of this hard stone distributed throughout the land.

Speaker 11 So if you want to build an obelisk, you need hard stone.

Speaker 11 And so you have to go to these quarries, which causes, of course, all sorts of problems because once you've cut your obelisk you've got to transport it but that's where they went to and the quarries there they still survive you can still see how rock was cut out as i said you can see the unfinished obelisk still in place which is really helpful because it gives us a really good idea as to how these things were cut out of the rock because of course granite is extremely hard very difficult to work and these quarries it wouldn't have been pleasant working conditions it would have been hot it would have been dry, it would have been dusty.

Speaker 11 But we think we know fairly well how they actually managed to cut them out of the rock.

Speaker 9 And before we get to that, I mean, so granite, that is the type of hard stone that they have got in Aswan, is it? Is it red granite that I've got in my notes?

Speaker 10 Yeah, I mean, there are a series of hard stones at Aswan because it is

Speaker 10 the cataracts of the Nile there, which are formed of various, you know, igneous stones.

Speaker 10 Granite is the classic one there, and it's targeted partly because it is so hard and because as joey said egyptians have plenty of building stone sandstone and limestone but you're not going to be able to create something as we said earlier so tall and thin without the risk of cracking with with with those sort of stones so you need something which is very very hard although part of the problem comes with with granite is also also very brittle but at the same time One of the important things about granite, as you said, it's its colour.

Speaker 10 There are different types of granite, but the red granite is the classic one.

Speaker 10 And that's a stone which is associated with the sun there are a number of coloured stones that the egyptians associated with if you like solidified sunlight is one way of putting it another one is red quartzite which is found in the north but that's a much more granular stone the other good thing about granite is of course if you can work it properly you can get for a very smooth finish which which is perfect for inscribing high quality hieroglyphic texts.

Speaker 10 So for those reasons, granite is the ideal stone, But then that gives you problems about how do you get the thing out of the ground, how do you create something from something which is so intractable material.

Speaker 9 What do we know then about the tools?

Speaker 9 If you're a worker in one of these quarries or you're overseeing these workers and you get an order from the Pharaoh wanting a new big, you know, state-of-the-art obelisk, I mean, what tools have you got at your disposal with your workers to try and then carve out one of these monster monuments?

Speaker 11 Well, not much at all. You're not going to be able to use chisels and saws to any great effect on granite.
It's quite hard. It looks as if the way it was done is that it was marked out in the ground.

Speaker 11 So you'd mark out your obelisk and then you would clear what would be the top surface of the obelisk. And then you'd work down the sides to sort of cut out the shape.

Speaker 11 But the way you would do that is to get an even harder stone, a stone ball, and just basically use it as a hammer or a hammerstone either to hit it or to just drop it onto the ground.

Speaker 11 And eventually, with a lot of manpower and a lot of hours doing it, you would be able to cut down alongside the obelisk shape that you want.

Speaker 11 Once you've got you've been able to go down the side, then you have to undercut it, which must have been terrible.

Speaker 11 You'd have to be, I think, swinging it or harnessing your diorite stone balls to hit it. And you would have to start packing it at the same time to make sure it didn't collapse.

Speaker 11 And eventually, you would end up, if you did this, with an obelisk resting on stone pillars, you would leave some pillars in place, but unpacking as well.

Speaker 11 And eventually, then you would knock away, well, it sounds quite quick, but it wouldn't be.

Speaker 11 You would cut away your stone pillars, and you would end up with your obelisk lying in a trench, though you're working in the trench round it, with packing around it as well.

Speaker 11 And then you have the problem of lifting it out, which is a whole new problem. But it's not a fast process.

Speaker 10 but having said that you know hat shapes that cut four or five it's it's perhaps faster than we imagine that it that it would have been the key issue here is as joey said is is there's no real super sophisticated technological fix here there's no you know super material they're using it's just these hard dolerite bowls that they find in the eastern desert which is just the stone that's harder than granite and as Joe says you just get loads of people and bash away at it and that's that's that's that's the only way to deal with a stone which is which is so hard find something a bit harder and just walk away till you release it but again as Joyce said if you get large numbers of people involved you could do it relatively quickly I mean Hachepset herself says on the inscription on the base of her obelisk that it was seven months in the quarries So she says when she started, when you finished, and it was seven months, which isn't too bad, really, considering, you're dealing with an obelisk which is say 30 meters in height and it's made out of granite.

Speaker 10 And I guess part of the problem is getting people around it.

Speaker 10 As Joy said, you've got these trenches and you're just bashing them out. It's getting enough people in that space and just having them all day, every day, whacking.

Speaker 10 the ground with these heavy stone balls.

Speaker 11 Yeah, you've got to cut a trench big enough to fit people in. So it's not just cutting the obelisk that's the problem, it's cutting the trench around the obelisk.

Speaker 11 You can't just do a thin cut, it's got to be quite wide.

Speaker 10 And of course, you've got to leave enough room so you can manoeuvre the obelisk out.

Speaker 10 Yes, you can't have an obelisk at the bottom of a trench because there's no way you're going to be able to lift it straight up.

Speaker 10 You're going to need to have some clearance so effectively you can roll it away from the quarry and down, presumably, down to the river where you've got barges waiting for it.

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Speaker 9 What is quite interesting to me, and this is a very, I guess it's perhaps a bit of a different angle, and it's nowhere near the same size, I think, but it's still an interesting kind of activity that would have included lots of workers.

Speaker 9 Is that I went to Orkney a couple of years ago and I was at the Ring of Brodger and learning about where they got those standing stones from, which was from a quarry which was some seven kilometers away.

Speaker 9 And we went to that quarry where they found it, including you can go to that hillside and see the remains of an unfinished standing stone that never made it out of the quarry similar to this unfinished obelisk you find it as one but hearing about that in the stone age some 5000 years ago how they also just used a big hammerstone and just hit away at it at the kind of horizontal block of stone on the hillside until it gave way and then moved it down it's funny how it were the ancient egyptians as well it's a similar kind of thing just bashing it out for a long time which also makes me think of the noise if you were traveling down the river nile and past that you'd be able to hear the work of these workers you know from dawn till dusk just hitting the st your stone against the red granite for days and days on end it must have been quite something just to hear yeah yeah absolutely absolutely but but what you what you're saying is it really touches on something which is i think important for the whole idea of technology building in ancient egypt not just obelisks but also temples and pyramids as well.

Speaker 10 But on the one hand, clearly there's a high level of technical sophistication in terms of planning and architecture and so forth.

Speaker 10 But at the other hand, you've just got the application of brute labor force in having huge numbers of people to drag stones about and huge numbers of people just bash away.

Speaker 10 And I think when people you know think about ancient Egyptian technology, think how did the Egyptians do this?

Speaker 10 What tools that they have or machines that they have, which we don't have anymore, and what secret knowledge has been lost? It's not that at all.

Speaker 10 Yes, there's technological sophistication, but on the other hand, it is just the ability of the state, particularly the king, to get loads of people in the right place and get them to do what is

Speaker 10 grunt work. And that's the secret to

Speaker 10 lots of these really quite astonishing achievements the Egyptians are able to bring off.

Speaker 11 Yeah, that's exactly what I was going to say.

Speaker 11 People People are always looking for some alien technology or help from Atlantis or something to explain how the Egyptians could do this stuff.

Speaker 11 But actually, if you have enough people, the technologies can be quite simple. You just have to repeat it over and over and over again.
And to be prepared to finance that, and they could do it.

Speaker 9 Well, whilst we're on this, shall we also address that other thing that is regularly repeated? Do we think this workforce would have been slaves?

Speaker 9 I mean, what would we know about the workforce that were making these obelisks?

Speaker 10 We don't know very much about the workforce itself.

Speaker 10 We know a fair bit about the people who are in charge of it, because they left graffiti at

Speaker 10 the quarries themselves. You know,

Speaker 10 they wrote hieroglyphic inscriptions. So, you know, I was sent to get these obelisks.
So we know quite a bit about those people. In terms of the labour force itself,

Speaker 10 I don't think we should be thinking about slaves, but I think we should, for the nature of this job, be thinking about impressed labour.

Speaker 10 In the New Kingdom, when most of these obelisks were created, quite a lot of the punishment for criminals was to send them off to unpleasant tasks.

Speaker 10 The classic one is being sent south into Nubia to work on the gold mines, which must have been really, really grim.

Speaker 10 But I imagine this is the sort of thing that you might get criminals working on as well as a bit of local impressed labour. We do have other texts from the same roughly the same period.

Speaker 10 There's one of Seti I, who goes off to do a bit of gold mining and setting up temples in the desert. And it talks about the hundreds of people who went with that.

Speaker 10 And in passing, they note that several hundred of them just died. So we're talking about labour, some of which is dispensable.
So one thinks of in terms of criminals in that sort of way.

Speaker 10 We don't, as far as I'm aware, have evidence for the sort of thing which is going on when they're building pyramids, where you have quite a lot of, again, it's compulsory labour, but it's, you know, but you get people from all over Egypt being called upon the corvette for labour taxation, in effect.

Speaker 10 So you'll go from your village and you'll go off to the pyramid site and you'll work there for a few months and then having paid your dues, you'll then go home.

Speaker 10 We don't have that sort of evidence for obelisk building. but but i guess perhaps it was a bit more you know not so much a long-term permanent thing as pyramid building projects were.

Speaker 10 So you so you wouldn't need long-term labour at the site. So perhaps thinking about it as being criminals or a

Speaker 10 bit of local labour being impressed to do it might be the way of thinking about it. But honestly, we don't have those sort of records which allow us to be absolutely precise about that.

Speaker 11 It's interesting because we do have records of some criminal trials and we can see that the process is if you're found guilty, you're not sent off to jail to do nothing.

Speaker 11 You will be used and you'll be sent off, like Stephen said, to the gold mines or to the quarries or whatever. And it's, I think for many people, it must have been a death sentence.

Speaker 11 It must have been absolutely horrific. I mean, there's also the possibility at sometimes of using prisoners of war to also work in the quarries.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I don't think you get many people wanting to work there unless they're in an administrative capacity.

Speaker 10 Yeah, really hard.

Speaker 9 And you also mentioned in passing there, so New Kings of Egypt. So that's the time you mentioned names like Hatshepsut and Seti I, perhaps also names like Tutankhamun, isn't it?

Speaker 9 So that's mid to late second millennium BC,

Speaker 9 more than 3,000 years ago. Is that the period of time that we should be imagining that these quarries at Tazwan, building obelisks, creating obelisks, that's when they were doing the most of that?

Speaker 9 That was almost kind of the zenith point of building these great monuments?

Speaker 11 Yes, and that's also the time that they're starting to really enhance the Karnak temple at the same time. So the two are kind of going hand in hand.
There's a lot of building work going on in Thebes.

Speaker 11 It's less easy to see what's happening in Heliopolis, but yes, that's right.

Speaker 10 Yeah, I think there are clearly some earlier obelisks. So the earliest big obelisk that we've got is

Speaker 10 Senozrit, the first obelisk

Speaker 10 at Heliopolis, and he's of early Middle Kingdom, so several centuries earlier.

Speaker 10 We don't seem to have much more big obelisk building for the rest of the Middle Kingdom, although it may be that we've got you know obelisks that you know have just disappeared as Joyce said Heliopolis is in a really poor condition as an archaeological site and there may be earlier Middle Kingdom stuff there but but like Joyce said in the New Kingdom where you get Karnak temple expanding we get Heliopolis expanding even more those are the real high points of obelisk building but also we're dealing with very powerful rulers you know the the kings of the 18th dynasty and the early part of the the 19th dynasty, these are the ones who are able to control a significant amount of resources.

Speaker 10 And yeah, in the old kingdom, we've got kings who are controlling lots of resources. Otherwise, we wouldn't have pyramids at places like Giza.

Speaker 10 In the New Kingdom, they're employing those resources in slightly different ways, and

Speaker 10 not in the royal tomb itself,

Speaker 10 but largely in temple building. And the obelisks go along as part of that.
And the connection to the sun god as well is a strand which runs all the way through so they want to show their their

Speaker 10 their piety towards the sun god but with the expansion of of of thebes of karnak as becoming a place which is really developing in a big way as a centre for a sun god in addition to what's always been the case at heliopolis yeah there's the potential for lots of places where people who have got that those resources and the ability to control those resources are able to do that and want to do that.

Speaker 11 Also, you get a sense of almost competition within the family as well that once one has started to do it, the next one has to do it, but do it better.

Speaker 9 My obelisk is bigger and better than yours, right?

Speaker 11 Yes, exactly. So I am a bigger and better king who is favoured more by the gods and more powerful.

Speaker 11 Her Chepsa actually tells us that her father told her to build obelisks and he, Tuthmosis I, also raised obelisks at the Karnak temple.

Speaker 11 So it seems to be a family thing, is particularly the Tuthmoside families, are very keen on doing this.

Speaker 9 They are very keen on the karnak temple complex and enhancing it well you mentioned karnak temple complex there so if we we keep on as one for the moment but think about let's say karnak temple some 3 000 years ago in the new kingdom at luxor which is you know ancient thebes as the destination if we continue with that whole process from obelisk being made at the quarry to ultimately being erected at karnak temple we've got to the stage where the workforce have used those great hammer stones to to hammer out the shape of the obelisk and then cut away those kind of stone pillars beneath.

Speaker 9 But I mean, surely there's more to do before moving it to the river then. I mean, I look at an obelisk today and I look at the sides and they're incredibly smooth sides, aren't they?

Speaker 9 So isn't there, if you're just using stones, surely all four sides, it's still quite a rough design. Do they do the next part, the kind of refining of it?

Speaker 10 at the quarry as well and then the decorations what do we know about that it's a really good question the extent to which they're finished at the quarry itself on one level you you might expect that to be relatively limited in as much as if you are transporting this thing you know you're dragging it to to to the river to put it on the barge and once you've unloaded it at the other end there's going to be lots of manhandling and manoeuvring and dragging around so you wouldn't expect the finish to be that smooth on the other hand you don't really want to have a lot of work

Speaker 10 on site once you've erected it you don't want to put up something which is rough and then have

Speaker 10 the issue of smoothing it off all the way down. It's a difficult one.
The best evidence, well, one point of evidence we have is in the temple of

Speaker 10 Daryl Bakri of Hachepsat, where she illustrates the moving of obelisks. And the ones on those look at, are depicted as though they are finished.

Speaker 10 But whether that's artistic license, so you can see on the picture what it is that's been shown shown or not,

Speaker 10 is unclear. So I think that's a really good question.
I think a significant amount of finishing has to take place before you erect it.

Speaker 10 But probably the final finishing itself is carried on once you've got the obelisk up.

Speaker 10 The other thing that we haven't mentioned about these things is that the really big ones, the really important ones, had significant amounts of gold covering them.

Speaker 10 Whether it was the whole thing or whether it was just the top half is the subject of much debate because none of it survived anymore.

Speaker 10 It's been stripped off in the past, but significant amounts of gold would have been put on these things. And of course, that can really only happen, the plating of the obelisk, once you've got it up.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 10 I think the short and, I suppose, in a sense, unsatisfactory answer is: I expect as much as could be done before it was erected was done.

Speaker 10 because everything's going to get more difficult once the thing's up in place and you'd have to erect scaffolding around it to work on it and you want to do that as little as possible.

Speaker 11 Yeah, particularly as they're right in front of temples there is not a lot of room around these once once they're erected.

Speaker 11 And also the procession of the obelisk as it makes its way towards the temple and is raised is a sort of it's a very big event. Her chepset again she illustrates this in her mortuary temple.

Speaker 11 You can see that the barges are processing with the boats on them and so on and people are cheering and then they arrive and she dedicates them to her father.

Speaker 11 So you probably want want it to look quite respectable when it arrives. But again, it's difficult to tell from the art, of course, because they show us what they want us to see.

Speaker 11 They don't necessarily show it as it was.

Speaker 11 But I would imagine, unlike maybe a sculpture where you might be tempted to do more finishing touches when it's in its final location, with an obelisk, you might do perhaps more before it gets to the temple.

Speaker 9 So you mentioned being dragged. onto boats.
So are we thinking like rollers?

Speaker 11 We have lots of workers trying to make them get down to a river and then they're loaded on or with cranes or something onto big kind of barges that could handle the weight i mean what do we know about that part well i i think what you would do is you would try to get the water as close to the obelisks and the quarry as you can so if you could cut a canal that went straight to the obelisk that would be ideal but it's not always going to be possible it's going to be transported by water if they didn't have the nile they wouldn't be able to do this it couldn't be done over land it needs to be water transported but having said that even that is a very complicated process because you have to have big barges, and Egypt doesn't have big trees to make big barges from, so you have to get hold of wood, probably from Lebanon, to be able to build your barges.

Speaker 11 So, it's another logistical aspect to it. You've got to have enough rope, you've got to have wood, possibly, for sledges and things to help or make roller-type devices as well.

Speaker 11 But you definitely need wood for the barges, and then, of course, you need the boats that are going to tow the barges as well.

Speaker 11 So, it's not just the man force and the quarry, all this has to be planned as well. And it would be very expensive to create a boat like that.
How they got them onto the barges, we're not quite sure.

Speaker 11 But it seems to be a question of basically you get the boat as close as possible and then you weigh the boat down

Speaker 11 so that it's low in the water by putting stones in it heavier than the obelisk. And then you have the the obelisk, you've undercut the obelisk if you can do.

Speaker 11 You raise the boat up under the obelisk and sort of manage to get it onto it that by removing the ballast that you've put onto the boat. I'm being a bit vague about this because nobody really knows.

Speaker 11 It's things that people have tried. People have described it.
The Romans have described doing this.

Speaker 11 And people who've moved them in modern times or fairly modern times have also described how they do it. And it seems to be pretty much the same process, but it's not at all simple.
to do.

Speaker 11 So that in its own right,

Speaker 11 it would be so awful if you got your obelisk and then it ended up in the

Speaker 11 river.

Speaker 11 That would be terrible.

Speaker 9 Can you imagine if there are some obelisks actually at the bottom of the River Nile that just, you know, the barge just collapsed or something like that, and then that poor person has got to go to the fair and say, sorry, we've lost your obelisk in the River Nile.

Speaker 10 It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if there were plenty there at Aswan.

Speaker 10 I mean, what Joyce has just pointed out is one of the things about the technology of obelisks is there are things that we know and there are things that we definitely don't know and we know they use barges because they depict a chip that shows us these big barges being towed by tow boats, and the obelisks are on them.

Speaker 10 Exactly how the obelisks are on them is a matter of some debate, but we know they had barges.

Speaker 10 We know that because of the size of the things, it has to be you have to minimize the trans the travel over land as much as possible because that's going to be really, really difficult.

Speaker 10 So, we know they have barges, that much is clear. Exactly, as Joyce said, how they got them on the barges, we have to speculate.

Speaker 10 And what we speculate even more is how they got them off and got the obelisks

Speaker 10 up in their final location. And that we absolutely don't know.

Speaker 9 Ah, so that was going to be my next thing. It was going to be like, once they've got it to the site, then they've got to get it 90 degrees.
Well, they've got to erect it, don't they?

Speaker 9 They've got to get it absolutely straight. And that is something, I guess, almost like people think about how they...
built the pyramids.

Speaker 9 I mean, it's another kind of mathematical, I mean, brilliance, I guess, the kind of equations that you need to try and get it completely straight and then stay there, keep it steady.

Speaker 10 Yes.

Speaker 11 And unfortunately, I've mentioned, and Stephen's mentioned, that her chepsa does illustrate the cutting of her first two obelisks to a certain extent.

Speaker 11 And they're on her motory temple walls, but she doesn't show these vital bits, possibly because she would expect everybody to know them and didn't find them at all interesting.

Speaker 11 So we're sort of left floundering a bit. Not everything she shows us is entirely accurate.

Speaker 11 For example, if you look at her barges, it looks like that she's got ultra-long barges and has got two obelisks end to end which is almost certainly not how you would transport them but i think she's doing that so you can see there are two obelisks because if you showed one behind the other it wouldn't be as obvious but if only she'd shown actually the erecting of these things again people have experimented in modern times to try and do it and the idea is that it basically you dig a pit and you you and you use ramps and you slowly slowly tip the obelisk up but again as I think I've already said it's made so much harder because you're erecting it in front of a temple that's already there so you can't have it over the worst.

Speaker 11 I don't know if this would ever happen, but if you overbalanced and went into the temple, that would be really, really difficult as well.

Speaker 9 That wouldn't be good. No, you'd have questions to answer there, I think, in the dust.

Speaker 11 You have to be fairly accurate with what you're doing. And I think possibly that would be the hardest part of the whole process is to get it up.

Speaker 11 And once it's up, it's probably fairly stable if you've put a pit there.

Speaker 11 pit full of sand and rocks that you're slowly removing and you're using ramps as well because the Egyptians are very good at building ramps. But yeah, an amazing feat.

Speaker 10 I mean people have suggested all sorts of weird things like kites and water power and so on but there's no evidence for anything other than the manpower and very basic engineering knowledge which they're great at yeah the important thing is the use of ramps we know that the egyptians used ramp simple ramps for lots of really huge building projects pyramids temples And for those things, it's really straightforward because the idea is you're getting a stone up in the air and putting it on top of other stones.

Speaker 10 So, you know, that's straightforward. The problem with the obelisk is you've got this long, thin thing and you've got to get it upright the right way around.
So how are you going to do that?

Speaker 10 Well, the idea is you pull it up up a ramp, which is fine. You've got it elevated over the base, but you've got the base there, quite a small target to hit.

Speaker 10 But then you've got to get it down the other side of the ramp and hit that base. almost vertically.
And again, it has to be supported. You can't, we're back to this thing.

Speaker 10 It's huge and heavy, but it's fragile, and you don't want to leave bits of it unsupported because the chances are it's going to snap under its own weight.

Speaker 10 So, you've got to drag it up a ramp, you've got to somehow get it to come down the other side of the ramp,

Speaker 10 yet still be supported and hit that target, and then be somehow adjusted into place.

Speaker 10 So, it's an amazing technical achievement, as I said, that they're hitting that target, but exactly how it's done, we simply don't know.

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Speaker 9 I think you guys have brilliantly talked through that whole process, and it's such an extraordinary part of the obelisk story, the kind of erection of one, you know, hundreds of miles away from the quarry that it was created in.

Speaker 9 I will also kind of use as a bit of an Easter egg, maybe, or for anyone listening who will be planning to go to Karnak Temple in the future, because I remember being shown this a couple of years ago when I went.

Speaker 9 I think it's in the just before the hyperstyle hall. If you go to the left, you can see the tip of an obelisk that is on its side.

Speaker 9 And if you look very, very closely, this comes back to the point you mentioned earlier, Stephen, is you might be able to see what almost looks like drill holes in the tip of the obelisk.

Speaker 9 Those holes were for then putting on top the golden tips or the metal tips, do we think? And you have it right there.

Speaker 9 You can see at Karnak, like the tip of an obelisk up close and see where, kind of how they would have then applied that gold on top to make it shine in the sky.

Speaker 10 Yeah, absolutely. And not just the tip on the upper part as well.
As I say, it's a matter of some debate as to how much of the shaft

Speaker 10 was covered in gold, but at least the top half was. And

Speaker 10 part of the reason we know this, yes, you're quite right. We've got these holes for attachment of gold plate.
But also on the obelisks themselves, they talk about it.

Speaker 10 And in the descriptions, they say things like,

Speaker 10 these things were covered in gold so that they will reflect the rays of the sun and light up the two lands when the sun hits them.

Speaker 10 So they're very much, you know, we're going back again to this idea that they're connected with the sun and the sunlight.

Speaker 10 That the idea is that, yes, these things are covered in gold, they're very visible, they're very impressive, but also at the same time, the sun is radiating from them as it hits these things.

Speaker 10 So, again, it ups the level of how impressive these things are and how much they are connected to

Speaker 10 the sun.

Speaker 10 They're linking heaven and earth. That's one of the things they're doing.

Speaker 9 The two lines, are they Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt?

Speaker 10 Upper Egypt and Lower Egypt. So, essentially, by two lines, they say the whole of Egypt.

Speaker 10 Now, that's obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but these things would have been visible from considerable distances.

Speaker 11 It's kind of a reminder that we've been talking about the technology, which is really important,

Speaker 11 but the whole thing is it's also a religious rite, if you like, cutting the obelisk and transporting and everything. It's all a religious offering to the gods.

Speaker 11 So we tend to sort of overlook that aspect of it. But that's a really important aspect of it too to the Egyptians to get that aspect of it right.

Speaker 9 If we now move on to the last part of the chat and kind of focus more on the legacy of these obelisks, of these monuments, if we first of all keep in antiquity, how did other ancient civilizations, I mean, how were they influenced by

Speaker 9 these structures that would have, I mean, word would have spread about their creation, what they looks like. I went to Petra recently and they have these kind of stone

Speaker 9 similar design to obelisks on some of their tombs and on high points, but I think they're called Nefeshes.

Speaker 9 Obviously, you've got the kingdom of Kush further south in Sudan, don't they, which have a heavy influence from Egypt.

Speaker 9 I mean, does the idea of the obelisk get transported far and wide across the ancient world?

Speaker 11 I think it's really difficult to tell to a certain level because a column is a column, and lots of civilizations have columns.

Speaker 11 So I think we have to be careful not to imagine that everything that is long and thin is directly influenced by the Egyptians. But it's clear.

Speaker 11 I mean, certainly, Egypt towards the end of the dynastic age was ruled by Nubian pharaohs who took the obelisk back home. So, yes, there's a clear evidence of influence there.

Speaker 11 Neighbouring obelisk-like structures are influenced by the Egyptians but have a different meaning? Are they obelisks? Are they a form of column? It's really difficult to tell.

Speaker 11 But what we can tell is that the Romans were very, very struck by obelisks obelisks and they took them back to Rome with a lot of difficulty and it's it's they too actually regard the ability to raise an obelisk even though they've not cut it it again shows that they are a powerful ruler too and that they're using it for exactly the same purpose they're not necessarily using it to worship the sun but in that aspect of it to demonstrate how great they are they're doing that too and then from people are picking this up from Rome.

Speaker 11 The Romans then also start occasionally making their own obelisks and it sort of radiates out from there, I would suggest.

Speaker 11 And then we get another phase later of people

Speaker 11 when people start to travel to Egypt again, picking up on the idea of the obelisk and you get it again becoming important in the West.

Speaker 9 Do you then see that? I mean, after Alexander the Great, we'll get to the Romans absolutely as kind of almost going full circle from the beginning of our chat when you mentioned obelisks in Rome.

Speaker 9 But of course, following Alexander the Great, you also have the Hellenistic Greeks in charge of Egypt as well, with the Ptolemaic dynasty, ultimately ending with the famous figure of Cleopatra.

Speaker 9 Are they also interested in these obelisks, you know, these things that they see in front of these old temples and also with the Ptolemies really kind of wanting to show themselves, yes, Greek on one hand, but also

Speaker 9 kind of respecting Egyptian culture and portraying themselves as traditional Egyptian pharaohs similar to Tutankhamun. Are they also interested in obelisks too before the Romans arrive?

Speaker 11 They're certainly interested in ancient Egyptian culture.

Speaker 11 It's funny because, you know, the film, the Cleopatra film with Elizabeth Taylor and the way it's been filmed, that ancient Alexandria is dotted about with random Egyptian artefacts.

Speaker 11 And people used to laugh at that.

Speaker 11 But the more excavation that's been doing in Alexandria, particularly in the harbour, underwater excavation, it's becoming clear that actually, yes, they did move genuine Egyptian already to them ancient artefacts to their new city of Alexandria.

Speaker 11 But there's no real evidence that I know of that they were particularly interested in obelisks.

Speaker 10 There are Ptolemaic obelisks, but they're small ones. They're not interested in creating huge ones, whether that's because they're not interested, because they're not able to for whatever reason.

Speaker 10 But it doesn't seem to be something that does interest them. There are small ones that they put up in front of temples, and you've got things like the Kingston Lacy Obelisk, which helps with...
Yeah.

Speaker 10 you know, because it's got Ptolemaic names on it, it helps with translation of hieroglyphs. So there are obelisks, but not the big ones.

Speaker 11 No, no, the big traditions. I think they would struggle as well.
If you're based in Alexandria, it's a big ask to get an obelisk. It could be done, but yeah, I mean,

Speaker 10 we do have some obelisks moving around at that time. I think, as you say,

Speaker 10 in Alexandria, we do have some sort of genuine pharaonic monuments, including the movement of Obelisk, although the main ones that move there seem to be during the Roman period.

Speaker 10 You know, Augustus moves obelisks through Alexandria. But they don't really seem that interested in obelisks compared to what was going on in the New Kingdom.

Speaker 11 I mean they're not that interested in ancient Egyptian religion, the Ptolemies particularly are they?

Speaker 11 They have their own variants so it might just not chime necessarily with what they want to use it for but they're quite capable of taking it and using it in a different way.

Speaker 10 Yeah,

Speaker 10 I mean another way of thinking about it is in the Ptolemaic period you don't get really very much expansion at Karnak, you don't seem to have very much going on at Heliopolis.

Speaker 10 So those traditional ancient religious sites don't seem to interest them quite as much as other places.

Speaker 11 No, they've changed the religion to fit with their own particular beliefs. And it seems like the obelisk is not that important, even though it's a shape they might use it.

Speaker 11 They're not using it in the same way, I don't think.

Speaker 10 No.

Speaker 9 So we get to the Romans and as you mentioned, so they like moving some of these obelisks around.

Speaker 9 And a few of them are taken to Rome. Is it both big and small have taken to Rome?

Speaker 9 Because my mind will think, having done a previous interview about this, about the great Circus Maximus, the chariot racing hub of the Roman world.

Speaker 9 And I think almost as a symbol of their annexation of Egypt by Octavian, later the Emperor Augustus, that they have obelisks in the central area of the Circus Maximus too.

Speaker 9 So if you were a Roman walking through ancient Rome in, let's say, the second century AD, would you see ancient Egyptian obelisks of all shapes and sizes? Well, not shapes, but of various sizes?

Speaker 10 Yes, you would. I think probably the bigger ones are the ones that you'd see primarily, because as you say, I think they're being taken there as a symbol of Roman domination over Egypt.

Speaker 10 There's quite a lot goes on there

Speaker 10 in the Augustine and Julio-Claudian period. Yeah, Circus Maximus.
Also, the Campus Martius, where one seems to be put up like an enormous sundial.

Speaker 10 You know, I mean, literally, there's an enormous sundial. The ground is laid out to look like that, which is an interesting afterlife of it as a solar symbol.

Speaker 10 I'm not sure that that solar idea has necessarily been reflected. It's just there as a big pointy stone that you can use in that sort of way.
So

Speaker 10 for the Romans, clearly

Speaker 10 there is that idea of imperial domination and exoticism as well.

Speaker 10 And of course, of course, it fits in with the Augustan

Speaker 10 agenda of finding a stone, a city in brick and leaving it in stone, that sort of thing. And part of the stone is Egyptian stone from the empire.

Speaker 9 And when do we see that be revived again? Is it with the imperial powers of the 17th, 18th, 19th, 20th centuries?

Speaker 9 Is that when you start to see people taking a really big interest in obelisks again, you know, these visual ancient things with this mysterious hieroglyphic writing on them too?

Speaker 9 Is that when you start seeing them being transported now with steam power and everything across the seas to places which will include the United States, Britain, and France.

Speaker 11 People were always interested in the doublets that were in Rome. And when they were trying to decode hieroglyphs, they would try and use those.

Speaker 11 But they would also, unfortunately, use fake Egyptian artefacts in Rome. And it didn't really work out.
So they were getting nowhere.

Speaker 11 But it's really after Napoleon's invasion of Egypt and Egypt starts to open up to Westerners and people become more aware of these that they now start to be seen as desirable in the West, and they are either taken or given to people in the West.

Speaker 11 So you get someone like Belzoni, who retrieves the obelisk that is now in Kingston-Lacey.

Speaker 11 You get some of them given by gifts, but it's a difficult gift because if somebody gives you an obelisk, you've got to move it. You can't always move it.
You know,

Speaker 11 it's a difficult one, but it's about that time that they start to spread out.

Speaker 9 On that Kingston-Lacey one, I remember doing something on that not too long ago,

Speaker 9 which is in a Dorset country house. William John Banks, who is involved in the deciphering of hieroglyphs and does that part of his grand tour to Egypt down the river Nile, doesn't he?

Speaker 9 But I believe getting that obelisk from the Temple of Phili

Speaker 9 to England, that last step of it going to the country house of Kingston Lacey, I believe he uses the Duke of Wellington's gun carriage.

Speaker 10 Well, I think my favourite transportation story is Cleopatra's Needle, the one that's standing in London, where they have to create a special ship to transport the thing, which itself is towed, and it gets lost.

Speaker 10 You know, there's a storm, it gets detached and it gets lost and then is later found floating around.

Speaker 11 Yeah, people died, didn't they?

Speaker 10 Yes, transporting Cleopatra's needle.

Speaker 11 And Belzoni, again, is a little point, but he retrieves the Kingston Lati obelisk. and he has to leave it till the water level is high enough in the Nile for him to move it.

Speaker 10 So

Speaker 11 it's very interesting that we can learn from how people have transported these things in modern times. It gives us a much, really good insight into the problems that the Egyptians faced.

Speaker 11 It's interesting that the two Cleopatra's needles, the one in New York and the one in London, the people who transported them or were responsible for transporting them, both wrote books about the experience because they thought that it was such a major thing and such a difficult thing to do that they actually preserved it for us to read.

Speaker 10 But I think we've got another phase as well that we need to mention,

Speaker 10 which is the Roman obelisks.

Speaker 10 Because by the time of the Middle Ages, by the Renaissance, quite a lot of those had fallen down

Speaker 10 and had been rediscovered during sort of early archaeological explorations in Rome.

Speaker 10 And there's quite a phase there, particularly in the 16th century, of papal involvement of these things being rediscovered and re-erected in key places, what were now key places

Speaker 10 within Renaissance Rome.

Speaker 10 So that's why you see them appearing in these, you know, major Renaissance Baroque squares, because they're being re-erected in different places to where they were when they came over as part of that Roman appropriation thing.

Speaker 10 There you go.

Speaker 9 There you go, the Papal Impact as well.

Speaker 11 Well, it's really interesting because sometimes people suggest that they should be sent back. And they've got such a history of transportation that you, where would they go back to?

Speaker 11 It's a really interesting dilemma they have a life beyond their original life just being erected in front of the temple you'd think that would be it and they would stand there and presumably the pharaohs who erected them would think they were there forever but no they have their own afterlife and they go on to have their own histories all of which seem to be fascinating they absolutely are and i'm very very grateful to you both for doing this interview with me today.

Speaker 9 I've always wanted to do obelisks and you both have highlighted the extraordinary wealth of information that there is to to them, and also the amount of mystery that there still is, for instance, with various parts of their building process.

Speaker 9 Joyce, you've been on the podcast several times before, and it's always been a pleasure. Stephen, it's been a pleasure to have you on for the first time, hopefully not the last.

Speaker 9 As said, husband and wife, brilliant Egyptology couple, and it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Speaker 11 Oh, thank you. It's been fascinating.
Yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Speaker 9 Well, there you go. There was husband and wife, Egyptology couple, Dr.

Speaker 9 Stephen Snape and Professor Joyce Tilsley, talking through the story of obelisks in ancient Egypt and their legacy down to the present day. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.

Speaker 9 Joyce, she has been a regular on the podcast.

Speaker 9 She's been the star of several past episodes varying from Nefertiti to the Great Pyramid of Giza to also featuring in our recent Egyptian gods and goddesses miniseries last year.

Speaker 9 So if you would like more episodes with Joyce Tilsley, you can find them in our Ancients archive. Thank you once again for listening to this episode of The Ancients.

Speaker 9 Please follow this show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favour.

Speaker 9 If you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan.

Speaker 9 Don't forget, you can also listen to us, The Ancients, and all of History Hits podcasts ad-free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

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