Sodom and Gomorrah

Transcript

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Speaker 23 Suddenly, the Lord rained fire and brimstone on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them and the whole valley, along with all the people there and everything that grew on the land.

Speaker 22 Early the next morning, Abraham hurried to the place where he had stood in the presence of the Lord.

Speaker 22 He looked down at Sodom and Gomorrah and the whole valley and saw smoke rising from the land like smoke from a huge furnace.

Speaker 25 Those were excerpts from Genesis 19 in the Old Testament, describing one of the most famous stories from the Hebrew Bible, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by God for their sinfulness.

Speaker 25 Today the names Sodom and Gomorrah, particularly Sodom, are well known and infamous, and when we did a recent poll asking which biblical story we should cover next, well Sodom and Gomorrah won convincingly.

Speaker 25 We're going to explore the stories about these two cities that survive in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 25 We'll delve into the context, their supposed location near the Dead Sea, and whether there is any historical basis to the biblical Sodom and Gomorrah. It's the Ancients on History Hit.

Speaker 25 I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Our guest today is Dr.
Dylan Johnson from Cardiff University.

Speaker 25 A historian of the ancient Near East and biblical scholar, Dylan has been on the podcast before to talk through the stories of Moses and the Exodus and that of the Ark of the Covenant.

Speaker 25 Dylan is a wonderful speaker and this was a really interesting chat about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 Enjoy.

Speaker 24 Dylan, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today.

Speaker 22 It's great to be back.

Speaker 24 And we did the Ark of the Covenant last time, and we did Moses as well.

Speaker 24 So you are one of our go-to experts for the book of Exodus, the book of Genesis, and exploring the stories of these well-known objects and figures from the Old Testament.

Speaker 24 And Sodom and Gomorrah, it feels like another well-known story from that part of the Bible.

Speaker 22 Yeah, some people know a version of the story.

Speaker 22 I think in the podcast we can kind of go through the fact that there's actually multiple, but most people know the names Sodom and Gomorrah, that's for sure.

Speaker 24 So what is the big question, first of all? What is the biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Speaker 22 So the one that most people will know is more or less contained in two chapters in the book of Genesis. That's the first book of the Bible, chapters 18 and 19.

Speaker 22 There's a couple allusions a little bit earlier to what's about to happen, but basically Sodom and Gomorrah are what are known as the cities of the plain, two of five, actually.

Speaker 22 And in a little while, we'll get to what those other three cities are. But for the most part, these two are a pair, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 They're mentioned together quite frequently, not always, but quite frequently. And the content of Genesis 18 through 19 is kind of two stories smushed into one.

Speaker 22 The first story in chapter 18 is about a divine visit. Three men, they're called men initially, show up to the house of Abram and his wife Syrah, or Sarai.

Speaker 22 And these three men, or at least one of them, is very quickly identified as none other than God himself so very interesting has kind of parallels with Greek stories about divine visitors and hospitality as well I'm guessing as well isn't exactly hospitality is one of the key themes in fact it's probably the connecting theme between the two chapters and so in this first divine visit these three visitors come one of whom is god the other two who knows obviously christians very simple answer for who those other two are but for the ancient jews who produced it this is actually somewhat of a mystery who these other two are we'll get to them maybe in a moment.

Speaker 22 But because Abram and Sarai demonstrate the guest hospitality rights, which are basically, you know, to welcome your guests, to offer them food, to house them, give them lodging, they're rewarded with a divine blessing.

Speaker 22 And that divine blessing is a promise that Sarai, who's well advanced in age already, will bear a son. And that son would eventually become Isaac.
So that's basically the first part of the story.

Speaker 22 Positive, happy, and then it turns a little dark.

Speaker 22 And then it turns a little dark because this guest, who is none other than God himself, reveals what he's been conspiring to do to these two cities called Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 We'd had a couple references a little bit before this episode, so we know that Sodom and Gomorrah, they exist somewhere near the Dead Sea or maybe in the Jordan Valley. We're not exactly clear.

Speaker 24 Oh, so they're geographically positioned in the literature, in the story, at least.

Speaker 22 Yeah, so again, not consistently, but it seems to be that based on quite a few descriptions geographically, but also geological descriptions of the region should situate them in the Dead Sea.

Speaker 22 And we can kind of get to that in a moment. But basically, these two cities are, for some reason, synonymous archetypes of places of sin.
the worst places that that could possibly be.

Speaker 22 And basically, what this divine visitor reveals after the blessing he gives to his guests is that he's planning to destroy these two cities, fire and brimstone.

Speaker 24 Fire and brimstone, that's it.

Speaker 24 And just to clarify, so the location of this house where the divine visitor, where God and his two followers, they receive hospitality, that house itself is not in Sodom or Gomorrah.

Speaker 24 It's a different location. And he's talking about Sodom and Gomorrah from outside almost.

Speaker 22 Yeah, exactly. It's at a place called the Oaks of Mamre.
And Mamre is some biblical figure who's associated with this kind of pre-Israelite group known as the Amorites.

Speaker 22 Who they are, you'll need another podcast to cover that. But basically, it's away from the Dead Sea region.

Speaker 22 But Abram has a vested interest in these two cities because his kinsman, whose name is Lot, has settled in Sodom. And we know about that a few chapters earlier.

Speaker 22 So he tries to dissuade God from destroying these cities.

Speaker 22 And there's kind of this interesting didactic back and forth between God and Abram, which raises really interesting theological questions of can you really dissuade God from doing things and why would God need to be reminded of morality and things like that?

Speaker 22 But in any case, the back and forth negotiation is basically if they're able to find just 10 good people in Sodom, then Sodom and Gomorrah will be spared.

Speaker 22 So the takeaway, again, from this first chapter is Sodom is definitely taking the lead in the narrative. Gomorrah is really, it's there, but it's really not as prominent.

Speaker 22 So the main story is following the city of Sodom. And in fact, if you actually just look across the biblical text, Sodom is mentioned 38 times and Gomorrah only 19.
Wow.

Speaker 22 And Gomorrah is only ever mentioned with Sodom.

Speaker 24 Because always, even now, we say Sodom and Gomorrah. It's never Gomorrah and Sodom, isn't it?

Speaker 22 And there's no independent stories about Gomorrah, right? It's just destroyed alongside Sodom. So if we're really going to focus in on the narrative, it's really Sodom we're talking about.

Speaker 22 And then Gomorrah kind of tags along. So that gets us to the end of the chapter 18.
And then the narrative switches.

Speaker 22 And what happens is, basically, these other two men who are now suddenly called, what are called Malachim malachim in Hebrew, angels, messengers, not human beings in any case.

Speaker 22 They're sent to Sodom and they go to the house of Lot. And again, this hospitality theme recurs.
Lot brings them in. He shows them hospitality.

Speaker 22 The problem is, the Sodomites are the antithesis to that.

Speaker 22 They show up at the door of Lot and they demand that Lot give these two men, angels, whatever they are, to the crowd, to the mob, and in proper euphemistic biblical words, so that they may know them.

Speaker 22 And that specific line is where a whole bunch of associations of Sodom with sexual deviancy and other different sexual acts, that's where that derives from, because the threat is quite clearly sexual assault of some kind.

Speaker 22 Lot refuses. There's a strange offer to send his own daughters out to appease the mob.

Speaker 22 It didn't come to fruition because ultimately the messengers, the men, the angels, they managed to ferry Lot and his family out of the city, his wife, his children, to the nearby other city of the plain called Zoar.

Speaker 22 And then we get the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, presumably as well, with, again, these classical King James words, fire and brimstone.

Speaker 22 No one knows what brimstone is anymore, but it's just sulfur. So the story essentially ends there.

Speaker 22 And then after this episode, These two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, become bywords for sin and punishment.

Speaker 22 And they're going to enter into the biblical imagination as these archetypes of those two outcomes, which obviously happens quite a bit, recurs quite a bit in the unfolding history of Israel and then Judah.

Speaker 24 Describing enemy cities, I'm guessing, is Sodom and Gomorrah or describing their own cities.

Speaker 22 Jerusalem is destroyed by the Babylonians because it was sinful and it's being punished. Samaria, the northern capital of the northern kingdom, is destroyed for the exact same reason.

Speaker 22 So in the Psalms and in various other texts, in fact, far more often they describe their own cities as Sodom and Gomorrah. A couple times they will label places like Babylon.

Speaker 24 But it's interesting also how there is a lot, and you've mentioned this to me before we started recording, I mean, theological baggage with those two chapters, isn't there, surrounding Sodom and Gomorrah and this whole narrative saving this one family related to Abraham, but then...

Speaker 24 everyone else is just consigned to being destroyed by God. I mean, the theological discussions are aplenty in the chapter.

Speaker 22 Exactly. So it's extremely theologically loaded, based on the questions of sin and of mercy and of proportional destruction.

Speaker 22 And the other component is also that it's bound up in this bigger narrative. The Sodom and Gomorrah story that most people would know from chapters 18 and 19 concern Abraham and his wife Sarah.

Speaker 22 And the catch is also is that it's part of this broader narrative about Abraham or Abram and his kinsman Lot.

Speaker 22 And so when we encounter other references to Sodom and Gomorrah and then the five cities of the plains, which we'll get to, it's assume that narrative that I just described, chapters 18 and 19.

Speaker 22 But we now think that that's a pretty late development.

Speaker 22 Sodom and Gomorrah is probably an old tradition, folk tradition, but that specific story with all the details with Lot, with the three messengers or the three divine beings, the hospitality theme, the sexual deviancy component.

Speaker 22 It's only there. No other biblical text seems to be aware that Abraham has anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah.
But the problem is, is that once you read that story, you kind of can't escape it.

Speaker 22 You always are going to be, with every reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, thinking of that whole story. So what I'm trying to piece apart here is

Speaker 22 maybe if that's the last piece added, there is to get to some of the, if not the historicity of these events, at least to access what the oldest story was.

Speaker 22 And it's not there, is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 24 But is that important to highlight also? We might think today, book of Genesis, at the beginning of the Bible, it must have been written first. But of course, almost it feels like an onion.

Speaker 24 There are so many different layers to these stories. And when they're added and compiled together, it's not that the oldest stories are at the beginning.

Speaker 24 and that the stories we have today were the earliest versions of them either.

Speaker 22 Right, exactly. It's something that I struggle to teach the students sometimes is that there's a clear narrative trajectory in the Bible from the beginning of time to more or less the Persian period.

Speaker 22 And at certain points, that intersects with actual chronology. But again, it's a narrative chronology.

Speaker 22 So when something occurs early in the biblical text or it's based early, it doesn't have much bearing on when that text was actually written.

Speaker 22 So the best example is the story of creation is probably pretty late, whereas a prophetic text like Hosea is probably much older.

Speaker 22 So you can't exactly correlate the narrative context with the scribal context, the composition of those texts.

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Speaker 24 We've covered that main narrative story of Genesis book 18 to 19, but there's another part of the book of Genesis, isn't there, which talks about Sodom and Gomorrah that I feel we need to talk about first before visiting those other cities and the historicity and archaeology about it.

Speaker 22 Right, exactly.

Speaker 22 So this gets to a completely different, also in Genesis, but it's a completely different chapter in chapter 14, which is a chapter that has long been recognized as one of the strangest chapters in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 22 It's going all over the place in terms of what it's talking about, its content. It concerns international politics, which is completely out of place in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 22 That's more at home in kind of kings and Samuel and things like that. It has Abram in this section essentially as a king with an army that he raises.

Speaker 22 He encounters a strange priest called Melchizedek, who's the priest of El Elyon in pre-Israelite Jerusalem.

Speaker 22 And then, of course, there's these references to this strange battle between the four kings of the east and then the five cities of the plain.

Speaker 22 And so, what's most interesting here, before I even get into the content of Genesis 14, is that this is the story.

Speaker 22 This is the Sodom and Gomorrah, and then the three other cities that other biblical texts seem to know. They don't know Genesis Genesis 18 through 19, at least there's no clear indication.

Speaker 22 But texts like Amos 4, Hosea 11, and 1 Isaiah, so texts that we tend to date earlier, or at least while there's still a monarchy around, they know this text. They know this story.

Speaker 22 And the associations of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, are not with... sin and punishment and all of the details in chapters 18 and 19, but with the strange battle in chapter 14.

Speaker 24 Sorry, just to interject there, you mentioned a monarchy and all that. Just so we know, what do you mean by a monarchy there? What are we talking about?

Speaker 22 Right. So we're talking about the existence of biblical or Israelite and Judahite monarchies.
Basically, timeframe we're imagining here is roughly 1000 till 586.

Speaker 22 So texts produced in that period, we call monarchic. Texts produced after 586 when Judahites were exiled into Babylon, we'll call exilic.

Speaker 22 And then their return, I mean, there's phases of return, but we'll say roughly, you know, 539 and later into the Persian period is post-Exilic.

Speaker 22 So the only text other biblical traditions seem to know is this Genesis 14. So what is Genesis 14? The story basically picks up with, again, it's about Abram.
He's living near the city of Hevron.

Speaker 22 That's currently in the West Bank, not too far from Jerusalem, but not at the Dead Sea, importantly. And his brother Lot has settled in the city of Sodom.

Speaker 22 So that kind of gives us the connection to the bigger picture.

Speaker 22 But the actual content of Genesis 14, at least the first 11 verses, have nothing to do with Abram, have nothing to do with Lot, have nothing to do with that.

Speaker 22 It talks about a group of four Eastern kings who make war on the cities of the plain. So I suppose I'll start with the Eastern kings.
So first off, none of these kings are known from history.

Speaker 22 Their names are clearly meant to evoke Eastern empires. Some are accurate and some are less clear, but we can't identify any of them.
The first king is Amraphel, king of Shinar.

Speaker 22 Shinar, we know, is how biblical writers referred to the land of Sumer, that is the extreme south of modern Iraq.

Speaker 24 A place like Uruk and Dur in the Sumerian kind of area.

Speaker 22 Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
So pre-Babylon, Babylon, basically. The next is Ariach, king of Elassar.
No idea. No idea about these.

Speaker 22 There's hypotheses, but really, this is the only reference to this king or to this place. The other king is Hidor, Laomar.
That's a tricky name, because it's an Elamite name.

Speaker 22 And Elam is pre-Persian Iran. So it's an ancient kingdom as well.
And the last is Tidal, king of the Goim, and Goim just means the nations. So these are

Speaker 22 figures who the biblical writers are associated with extremely great antiquity, but also coming from the East. So

Speaker 22 before they get to the Dead Sea, we learn about how these kings of the East, they kind of have some kind of coalition. They come.

Speaker 22 They fight with a motley crew of peoples who are the peoples of the land, as far as the biblical writers are concerned. These are the pre-Israelite inhabitants.

Speaker 22 So again, they're clearly setting these events in a very, very ancient past, in the very distant past.

Speaker 22 So these kings encounter groups like the Rephaim, which are often remembered as giants, the Amalekites, this quintessential enemy of Israel, the Hurrians, which is a Bronze Age people who lived up in kind of Syria, a northern region.

Speaker 22 and other obscure groups. So they come, make war with these peoples before then turning their attention to the cities of the plain.
And And finally, we get to the cities of the plains.

Speaker 22 So we have Bera, king of Sodom, one of the targets, Beersha, king of Gomorrah, and then we get the other cities of the plains.

Speaker 22 We have a king of a place called Admah named Shinob, a king of a place called Zeboiim, named Shemeber,

Speaker 22 and then a king or the king of Bela. We don't know if that's the name of the king or the name of the town, which is associated with this Zoar.

Speaker 22 Zoar is the place where Lot and his family fled at the destruction of Sodom. So these are the enemies of these Eastern kings.
And long story short, they lose the fight.

Speaker 22 And the instigator of all of this, Kerdola Omar, king of Elam, he takes prisoner Lot. So this is the kinsman of Abram.
But only after 11 verses, I should say, does Abram suddenly appear in the story.

Speaker 22 And then it goes in strange directions.

Speaker 22 So it really seems like this whole chapter is a bit of a patchwork, but that first 11 verses, that looks like some kind of a core old story, at least as far as it's represented in other texts, because in other texts, we have these other cities named.

Speaker 22 So Zeboim and Adma are named in other biblical texts. So they know these places.
And in fact, those places are sometimes named without Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 So exactly what the association is with these cities and this story is not entirely clear. But at least we know that biblical writers are aware of it outside of the book of Genesis.

Speaker 24 Is it also interesting? Because what really struck me is when you you mentioned how it's almost kind of the coming together of five different cities.

Speaker 24 And if memory serves me right, isn't it with the Philistines later that they have five cities and sometimes later you hear like the Pentapolis, five city-states together?

Speaker 24 You almost see this repeating idea of five cities being linked in some sort of entity or another in particular stories.

Speaker 22 Yeah, I hadn't actually thought of that or made that connection. That's a great connection.
I'm sure somebody has somewhere in the literature.

Speaker 22 But I mean, it's important then, too, because, of course, the Pentapolis becomes kind of the fixation of the enemy in the early history of israel at least as it's depicted so there may be a connection there now the question is just how fixed were these five cities of the plane because eventually they start to get paired off and sodom and gomorrah kind of stand on their own adma and zeboim are mentioned on their own as well but at least I guess when we think about bringing all of these diverse traditions together, it becomes five, and that could be significant.

Speaker 22 Just as significant as well is the four eastern kings, because the places that they're associated with, Sumer, Elam, maybe something in the north, and maybe something in the west, these might fall into a basic cognitive map of the ancient Near Eastern world, which is, you know, usually makes its appearance in royal inscriptions as the four quarters of the world, which is much like the cardinal directions, northeast, south, west.

Speaker 22 They describe these in terms of... cultures and certainly Sumer and Elam are two cardinal directions.
The other two places, we have no clue where they are, so we can't really decide.

Speaker 22 But some scholars tend to think that that's what's being evoked here, that these are the kings of the whole world coming to bring war to the Dead Sea region.

Speaker 24 But also, it's almost like the five cities standing up against these powerful, mighty powers coming from the east.

Speaker 24 And as you've highlighted earlier, if this is the story that includes Sodom and Gomorrah, that seems to be more better known when referring to these cities later in the Bible.

Speaker 24 Should we therefore think that actually many of the people who were reading the Bible would not have associated Sodom and Gomorrah first and foremost with sin and infamy, but actually this story of defense against these powers to the east, first of all.

Speaker 22 It's certainly possible. It's hard to exactly tell because there is some kind of a judgmental tone in even some of these earlier ones.
They talk a lot about the overthrow of these cities.

Speaker 22 And so

Speaker 22 whether or not that judgmental tone is there in the original narrative,

Speaker 22 we just have Genesis 14. In the prophetic texts, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, there is that judgmental tone.
So they do somewhat associate it, which makes sense because then there's

Speaker 22 room for extrapolation in chapters 18 and 19 then to really build on this.

Speaker 22 So there is a sense even in this early stage that these places got what they deserved.

Speaker 22 But I should also add that after we leave verse 11 and go into verse 12, Abram shows back up, he musters an army, he goes to war with Herdola Omar, and he is victorious.

Speaker 22 So there's also this kind of redemption through the figure of Abram, who's for the only time in the entire book of Genesis acting like a king here.

Speaker 22 So, it's really hard to tell, I would say, if all of this sin and sanction emerges only in those chapters, but it's certainly much less prominent in chapter 14.

Speaker 24 Well, let's now look at the location, as you mentioned earlier there, Dylan. So, is it believed, or I mean, is it expressly mentioned that, as you said, the location

Speaker 24 right by the Dead Sea or in the Dead Sea? I mean, what does it seem to suggest?

Speaker 22 Yeah, so it seems almost definitive that

Speaker 22 the imagined landscape of both these stories is probably just south of the Dead Sea because of, well, for reasons I'm about to get to.

Speaker 22 So let's start with the oldest story, at least what we think looks like the oldest story, which is Genesis 14. Now, there's some references just to the geology of the region, the city of the plain.

Speaker 22 It's taken to be the plain of Jordan. Now, where exactly the plain of Jordan is, that can be a lot of different places.

Speaker 22 but usually if they're going to refer to, let's say, just the region east of the Jordan River, that's usually the plateau or the highlands.

Speaker 22 The plain is usually associated with this area just to the south of the Dead Sea.

Speaker 22 Again, we're not 100% sure this is historical geography, but we get a little bit of clarification that the battle happens in a place called the Valley of Siddim, and then it says explicitly that is the Salt Sea.

Speaker 22 So we're fairly certain, at least, in the biblical writers' imaginations, these cities were located down there.

Speaker 22 But also then they start to describe certain geological features that pretty much seal the deal.

Speaker 22 So the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there's really no doubt that they're talking about the region of the Dead Sea. Just the reference to sulphur or King James's brimstone is a very sh.

Speaker 22 basic geological reality of the area. I don't know if you've ever visited the Dead Sea or anything around it yet.

Speaker 22 It's a strange alien world. It's absolutely going to be inspiring of stories reflecting on what could have possibly happened here to make this place like this.

Speaker 22 And so you can imagine stories being spun just based on the experience of being at the Dead Sea. Salt, complete lack of vegetation, sulfur, extreme heat.

Speaker 22 I mean, the temperatures around the Dead Sea regularly exceed 40 degrees Celsius. It's kind of hellish, really.

Speaker 22 So surely if there were cities here, they must have done something horrible to result in this, especially when everything around is more or less fairly fertile.

Speaker 24 Do you think that there is any potential historicity or historical basis behind the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, or at least kind of cities in that environment?

Speaker 24 Maybe the wider five cities that are mentioned together?

Speaker 22 For the most part, at least as the narratives are concerned, I'd say no. I think these narratives are what we call ideologies, because

Speaker 22 in both Genesis 14 and especially Genesis 18, 19, they really conclude with explanations for what the landscape looks like. Now, were there cities there?

Speaker 22 Yes, there were cities there, especially in the early Bronze Age. So these would have been ruins by the time biblical writers are composing these stories.
So you can kind of imagine that.

Speaker 22 And maybe I can touch a little bit on the fact that there were archaeological surveys in and around the region, scholars looking for Sodom and Gomorrah, of course, serious surveys also going on in the 1970s.

Speaker 22 Thomas Schaub and his co-director Walter Rast, they did a fairly thorough survey of the region. In 1973, they do find a couple of sites, Bada Bad Ed Dara, which is an early Bronze Age site.

Speaker 22 So, early Bronze Age is putting us somewhere around 3200 to 2000 BCE,

Speaker 22 something like that. And this was a fairly big site,

Speaker 22 and it did come to a fairly dramatic end around the end of the early Bronze Age there. And then about 13 kilometers south of that, they found another site, Numira.

Speaker 22 So there we have our two, Sodom and Gomorrah. Pick which one you want to be which.
And it also is destroyed around this time period.

Speaker 22 But again, this puts us about, you know, 1500 years between the destruction of those cities and the composition of those texts.

Speaker 22 So My inclination then is not that these cities are Sodom and Gomorrah or that the narratives describing their destruction are really connected to these archaeological sites.

Speaker 22 But what I can imagine is that people, biblical writers and Israelites and Judahites who living in the region, who would have obviously encountered the strange geological features of the landscape and perhaps see these types of ruins, would have come up with stories explaining how these cities, which nobody could live there at that time, could have existed.

Speaker 22 Perhaps the landscape was once fertile. And in fact, we have a biblical description of this area is essentially a garden of Eden.

Speaker 22 And it was fertile until they sinned and the region was more or less desolated. So that's kind of what I imagine the history being is ancient encounters with the landscape.

Speaker 22 You don't need to go any further than the biblical text itself, than the book of Genesis itself. There's two explanations for that possibility, right?

Speaker 22 One is this group of four kings from the east came and destroyed these cities.

Speaker 22 And the landscape was always like that, at least in that story.

Speaker 22 And then Genesis 18 and 19 and some other texts offer an alternative explanation about how that region transformed from what was once a fertile landscape into a desolate place.

Speaker 22 And then that this explanation of sin and punishment comes in. So that's kind of where I see the Sodom and Gomorrah tradition.

Speaker 22 They stand as archetypes of punishment because of the landscape, because the landscape is punishing. And no one can live there in the days of these biblical writers.

Speaker 22 So why people could have lived there in the past begs some kind of explanation. And the biblical writers are human beings who who want to explain the world in which they live as well.

Speaker 22 And they offer two explanations for us.

Speaker 24 If you're saying that that later story of Sodom and Gomorrah is written post the sack of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and then you have the Judeans either coming back from Jerusalem or those writing in exile, and I guess they have a different agenda for wanting to write than a story of Sodom and Gomorrah compared to those writing pre-that time.

Speaker 24 You can see the different agendas of the writer right there as to why they create that story.

Speaker 22 Right, yeah. So, so the association of Sodom and Gomorrah just generically with sin, it's not exclusively associated to Genesis 18 and 19.

Speaker 22 There does seem to be other texts that are aware of this association.

Speaker 22 But what's interesting is the detail and the fixation on very particular types of sin and punishment really come to the fore in what we call exilic and post-exilic literature.

Speaker 22 And no more is it more explicit than outside of Genesis than in Ezekiel, and specifically in Ezekiel 16, where

Speaker 22 he's explicit about the fact that Jerusalem is the new sodom and its punishment is more or less understood in analogous terms. So with that

Speaker 22 understanding in mind, a lot of scholars, based on other factors which have to do with the growth and development of the book of Genesis, kind of see this is the setting when that Genesis 18 through 19 story makes the most sense coming into existence.

Speaker 24 So trying to explain why Jerusalem was destroyed, why God allowed that to happen.

Speaker 24 Is that that thinking, right?

Speaker 22 Exactly. And Ezekiel makes clear also that for as bad as Jerusalem is, it's not quite as bad as Sodom because there's a remnant.

Speaker 22 There is the possibility for return and renewal, which obviously is something Sodom and Gomorrah don't get.

Speaker 22 So it's not all negative, but it definitely shows us a moment when those motifs and those archetypes would have been of great interest to biblical writers because Ezekiel dedicates essentially an entire chapter to it.

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Speaker 24 Now I'd like to return to archaeology and Solomon Gomorrah in the 20th century, Dylan, because I got in my notes something called the Ebla Bible Controversy.

Speaker 24 Now, what was this and how does it relate to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Speaker 22 Right. So, 1970s, kind of a decade of great interest in Sodom and Gomorrah.
So, we have Rast and Schaub who are conducting these archaeological surveys all around the southern plain of the Dead Sea.

Speaker 22 They're finding sites like Badadara and Umaira. And right around this time, in 1976, Italian archaeologists in Syria, in western Syria, discovered a massive archive of an ancient city known as Ebla.

Speaker 22 The city is also extremely ancient. The texts date to sometime around 2300 BCE.
So to give you an idea, this is about the time of Sargon of Akkad.

Speaker 22 These are extremely old texts, but they're very difficult to decipher even today, some 50 years after their discovery.

Speaker 22 You can imagine how difficult it was to decipher them in the initial years after their discovery.

Speaker 22 Nonetheless, a certain epigrapher of the expedition, Giovanni Petinato, he starts trying to work through these texts.

Speaker 22 He finds a document that seems to be listing various cities, and he notes some of the cities or interprets some of the cities as nothing else but these cities of the plain, Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim, Adma, and Bela, or Zoar.

Speaker 22 And he makes a very ostentatious claim. He goes to a couple conferences and says, hey, look, these are the names of the cities of the plain.
These cities that Rast and Shaub are uncovering.

Speaker 22 They're showing up in roughly contemporary texts from ancient Syria.

Speaker 22 They're real. Sodom and Gomorrah did exist.
Now, the problem was we knew so little about Eblite, which is a very obscure Semitic language, and it's written in really archaic Sumerian signs, basically.

Speaker 22 So what Petanata was translating then, first off, wasn't published, so no one could really check his work outside of the members of the excavation.

Speaker 22 And the other member of the excavation disagreed with him vehemently. So what ultimately happens is this claim, it got scaled back one by one, city by city.

Speaker 22 The reading was wrong until we finally ultimately understood what this text was, which is describing cities in Mesopotamia. It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Speaker 22 So it fizzled out, but you can imagine the 1970s there. They're finding the remains of cities.
We're finding texts that may mention them. So there was a great interest.

Speaker 22 And then basically by 1980, all of this kind of fizzles out. The archaeologists start to just talk about really these are, for the most part, cemetery sites.

Speaker 22 They don't seem to have the major urban centers that are described in the biblical texts.

Speaker 22 They're interesting early Bronze Age sites for the region, but let's stop trying to interpret them through the lens of the Bible, which more or less brings us to where we're at today.

Speaker 24 I must also ask, because it is really interesting when exploring biblical stories, parallels with other stories from the ancient world, is Sodom and Gomorrah different?

Speaker 24 Are there any parallel stories that we can see in other ancient cultures? I said, My mind actually would go to someone like Atlantis, kind of a similarity there of a city destroyed by the gods.

Speaker 24 But I mean, are there others that we can talk about?

Speaker 22 There are sets of texts which are known as city laments, and they're all composed in Sumerian. And they're not quite directly having gods destroy the cities.

Speaker 22 They are more or less describing great conflagrations of places like Uruk and Ur by human agents, but within the texts,

Speaker 22 divine agency is completely intermingled. So the goddess or the god departs their temple, and that enables the flood to sweep over, these destructions to happen.

Speaker 22 And of course, Jerusalem itself is the obvious other parallel for Sodom and Gomorrah of divine judgment. So the destruction of any city, I think, would...

Speaker 22 at least in some respects in the ancient Near Eastern mindset, be a result of divine causation. Things don't happen unless the gods will them.

Speaker 22 So I'm not so sure I'd have trouble finding parallels. I think I'd probably find too many parallels.
And it's just degrees of similarity.

Speaker 22 It is ironic that the Atlantics narrative is perhaps the most similar, at least as a typology of divine destruction of a city and its complete annihilation and disappearance forever, because usually these cities are then rebuilt.

Speaker 22 And I don't know what to make of that. I sometimes think just human cultures have a tendency to converge in that way.

Speaker 24 Well, I guess also that human mindset, isn't it?

Speaker 24 Because actually that wider narrative of a city either being conquered or being destroyed because in the eyes of the victorious that city become decadent and all of those things where they're partying too much and then another power comes in, overpowers them and the reasons they give is because, well, that city just became a place of sin.

Speaker 24 The Romans do it. multiple times with cities that they capture.
I think of Tarentum, Monte Taranto in southern Italy.

Speaker 24 They label the Greeks there as becoming incredibly decadent and a city of sin, Corinth as well.

Speaker 24 So actually, if we kind of explore that wider narrative, Sodom and Gomorrah, of course, the fact that it's destroyed and never rebuilt, but actually it's a human mindset thing of people trying to explain why a city was destroyed or conquered is because their city just became a place of sin and they were taken over by people who considered themselves more virtuous, I guess.

Speaker 22 Right.

Speaker 22 And I think that's actually exactly in some of the Ezekiel texts is that he's not fixating on specific sins, much less a specific sexual sin of Sodom, but he's labeling them as excessive and decadent and exactly these same parameters.

Speaker 22 Because again, he's trying to justify and explain these calamities. Why do these things happen? Because otherwise the world is a very scary place and randomness is not a good thing, right?

Speaker 22 You want cause and effect rather than four strange Eastern empires coming and capriciously destroying your cities and you have no control over.

Speaker 22 So I think what we see across these cultures then is justification, but also maybe a bit of catharsis, that if we just avoid those things, we won't be the Persians, we won't be the Greeks, we won't be the Atlanteans.

Speaker 24 Whoever it is, yeah, yeah, exactly. Don't share that same kind of fate.

Speaker 24 When we did a poll, we did a poll after our Tower of Babel episode asking which story from the Old Testament you'd like us to cover next.

Speaker 24 And the overwhelming answer for that, the one which had the most votes, was Sodom and Gomorrah. And we had had some other juicy topics in there, like David and Goliath and so on and so forth.

Speaker 24 So, Dylan, why do you think that of all the stories in the Bible, including the Old Testament and the New Testament, but why Sodom and Gomorrah is always there in like a top five most popular or people want to hear about?

Speaker 24 Why has it remained such a well-known, intriguing story to people down to the present day?

Speaker 22 I think there's a certain level of familiarity with the terms, obviously.

Speaker 24 Sodomites and stuff like that.

Speaker 22 that sodomites and and just a cultural awareness of it so that already kind of sparks the interest if you know about something or you think you know about something you're going to have that interest so so so they're well known the next thing is they're lost They're not to be found anymore.

Speaker 22 They're Atlantis, right? So that's appealing. It's not just, you know, Rome was destroyed.
Rome was destroyed, but you can still go to Rome and see it, right?

Speaker 22 I think it was the same appeal with Troy, right? We need to find these lost civilizations, which is why there's so much media. And everyone's always disappointed when you do find it, right?

Speaker 22 We find Troy and it's, oh, it's an ancient Anatolian culture. How disappointing, right? And of course, the same would be for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 But I think so long as we don't have these places, we aren't able to pinpoint them on a map, there's kind of a sense of adventure and discovery that could still be there.

Speaker 22 And so Sodom and Gomorrah offer that. The biblical connections, obviously, are going to speak to people of faith by finding these cities, reinforcing, the concrete dynamics of their belief systems?

Speaker 22 So, anything with the Bible always has that really important and heavy component. So, I think that's probably the dynamics.
And then again, there's always

Speaker 22 the personal connections, which I can't really account for. But I think that's enough to explain why it pulled so well.

Speaker 24 Dylan, this has been fantastic. Always a pleasure to get you on the podcast.
And it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on.

Speaker 22 Thanks. It was a blast.

Speaker 25 Well, there you go. There was Dr.
Dylan Johnson talking you through the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Thank you for listening.

Speaker 25 Please follow the Ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us and you're doing us a big favour.

Speaker 25 Now, if you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then also be sure to follow me on Instagram at Ancients Tristan.

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Speaker 25 That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

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