Sodom and Gomorrah

Transcript

Speaker 3 If you're a smoker or vapor, ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

Speaker 4 But with Zin nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 6 Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 7 Plus, Zin offers a robust rewards program.

Speaker 12 There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zen.

Speaker 10 Check out Zinn.com/slash find to find Zin at a store near you.

Speaker 2 Warning, this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.

Speaker 14 Are you noticing your car insurance rate creep up even without tickets or claims?

Speaker 15 You're not alone.

Speaker 14 That's why there's Jerry, your proactive insurance assistant. Jerry handles the legwork by comparing quotes side by side from over 50 top insurers so you can confidently hit buy.

Speaker 14 No spam calls, no hidden fees. Jerry even tracks rates and alerts you when it's best to shop.
Drivers who save with Jerry could save over $1,300 a year. Don't settle for higher rates.

Speaker 14 Download the Jerry app or visit jerry.ai/slashacast today.

Speaker 16 Hey there, it's Ryan Seacrest for Safeway. Flu season is here, and our pharmacies have you covered with a free flu shot with most insurance plans.
Plus, it's cough and cold season.

Speaker 16 And now through December 2nd, stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Musinex Cold and Flu Kickstart, Musinex Fast Max products, VIX Daquil and Nyquil combo pack, Alka Sel Surplus, also Airborne and Afrin.

Speaker 16 Offers end December 2nd. Restrictions apply and offers may vary by location.
Visit safeway.com for more details.

Speaker 15 Suddenly, the Lord rained fire and brimstone on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and destroyed them and the whole valley, along with all the people there and everything that grew on the land.

Speaker 17 Early the next morning, Abraham hurried to the place where he had stood in the presence of the Lord.

Speaker 17 He looked down at Sodom and Gomorrah and the whole valley and saw smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a huge furnace.

Speaker 19 Those were excerpts from Genesis 19 in the Old Testament, describing one of the most famous stories from the Hebrew Bible, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah by God for their sinfulness.

Speaker 19 Today the names Sodom and Gomorrah, particularly Sodom, are well known and infamous.

Speaker 19 And when we did a recent poll asking which biblical story we should cover next, well Sodom and Gomorrah won convincingly.

Speaker 19 We're going to explore the stories about these two cities that survive in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 19 We'll delve into the context, their supposed location near the Dead Sea, and whether there is any historical basis to the biblical Sodom and Gomorrah. It's the Ancients on History Hit.

Speaker 19 I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Our guest today is Dr.
Dylan Johnson from Cardiff University.

Speaker 19 A historian of the ancient Near East and biblical scholar, Dylan has been on the podcast before to talk through the stories of Moses and the Exodus and that of the Ark of the Covenant.

Speaker 19 Dylan is a wonderful speaker and this was a really interesting chat about Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 21 Enjoy.

Speaker 22 Dylan, it is a pleasure to have you back on the podcast today.

Speaker 17 It's great to be back.

Speaker 22 And we did the Ark and the Covenant last time, and we did Moses as well.

Speaker 22 So you are one of our go-to experts for the book of Exodus, the book of Genesis, and exploring the stories of these well-known objects and figures from the Old Testament.

Speaker 22 And Sodom and Gomorrah, it feels like another well-known story from that part of the Bible.

Speaker 17 Yeah, some people know a version of the story.

Speaker 17 I think in the podcast, we can kind of go through the fact that there's actually multiple, but most people know the names Sodom and Gomorrah, that's for sure.

Speaker 22 So what is the big question, first of all? What is the biblical story of Sodom and Gomorrah?

Speaker 17 So the one that most people will know is more or less contained in two chapters in the book of Genesis. That's the first book of the Bible, chapters 18 and 19.

Speaker 17 There's a couple of allusions a little bit earlier to what's about to happen, but basically Sodom and Gomorrah are what are known as the cities of the plain, two of five, actually.

Speaker 17 And in a little while, we'll get to what those other three cities are. But for the most part, these two are a pair, Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 17 They're mentioned together quite frequently, not always, but quite frequently. And the content of Genesis 18 through 19 is kind of two stories smushed into one.

Speaker 17 The first story in chapter 18 is about a divine visit. Three men, they're called men initially, show up to the house of Abram and his wife Syrah, or Sarai.

Speaker 17 And And these three men, or at least one of them, is very quickly identified as none other than God himself. So very interesting, has kind of parallels with Greek stories about divine visitors.

Speaker 22 And hospitality as well, I'm guessing as well, isn't it?

Speaker 17 Exactly. Hospitality is one of the key themes.
In fact, it's probably the connecting theme between the two chapters.

Speaker 17 And so in this first divine visit, these three visitors come, one of whom is God, the other two, who knows? Obviously, Christians. Very simple answer for who those other two are.

Speaker 17 But for the ancient Jews who produced it, this is actually actually somewhat of a mystery who these other two are. We'll get to them maybe in a moment.

Speaker 17 But because Abram and Sarai demonstrate the guest hospitality rights, which are basically, you know, to welcome your guests, to offer them food, to house them, give them lodging, they're rewarded with a divine blessing.

Speaker 17 And that divine blessing is a promise that Sarai, who's well advanced in age already, will bear a son. And that son would eventually become Isaac.
So that's basically the first part of the story.

Speaker 17 Positive, happy, and then it turns a little dark.

Speaker 17 And then it turns a little dark because this guest, who is none other than God himself, reveals what he's been conspiring to do to these two cities called Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 17 We'd had a couple references a little bit before this episode. So we know that Sodom and Gomorrah, they exist.

Speaker 17 Somewhere near the Dead Sea or maybe in the Jordan Valley. We're not exactly clear.

Speaker 22 But so they're geographically positioned in the literature, in the story at least.

Speaker 17 Yeah, so again, not consistently, but it seems to be that based on quite a few descriptions geographically, but also geological descriptions of the region should situate them in the Dead Sea.

Speaker 17 And we can kind of get to that in a moment. But basically, these two cities are, for some reason, synonymous archetypes of places of sin.
the worst places that that could possibly be.

Speaker 17 And basically, what this divine visitor reveals after the blessing he gives to his guests is that he's planning to destroy these two cities. Fire and brimstone.

Speaker 22 Fire and brimstone, that's it.

Speaker 22 And just to clarify, so the location of this house where the divine visitor, where God and his two followers, they receive hospitality, that house itself is not in Sodom or Gomorrah.

Speaker 22 It's a different location. And he's talking about Sodom and Gomorrah from outside almost.

Speaker 17 Yeah, exactly. It's at a place called the Oaks of Mamre.
And Mamre is some biblical figure who's associated with this kind of pre-Israelite group known as the Amorites.

Speaker 17 Who they are, you'll need another podcast to cover that. But basically, it's away from the Dead Sea region.

Speaker 17 But Abram has a vested interest in these two cities because his kinsman, whose name is Lot, has settled in Sodom. And we know about that a few chapters earlier.
So he tries to dissuade God.

Speaker 17 from destroying these cities.

Speaker 17 And there's kind of this interesting didactic back and forth between God and Abram, which raises really interesting theological questions of can you really dissuade God from doing things and why would God need to be reminded of you know morality and things like that but in any case the back and forth negotiation is basically if they're able to find just 10 good people in Sodom then Sodom and Gomorrah will be spared so the takeaway again from this first chapter is Sodom is definitely taking the lead in the narrative Gomorrah is really it's there but it's it's really not as prominent so the main story is following the city of Sodom and in fact if you actually just look across the biblical text Sodom is mentioned 38 times and Gomorrah only 19.

Speaker 17 Wow. And Gomorrah is only ever mentioned with Sodom.

Speaker 22 Because always, even now, we say Sodom and Gomorrah. It's never Gomorrah and Sodom, is it?

Speaker 17 And there's no independent stories about Gomorrah, right? It's just destroyed alongside Sodom. So if we're really going to focus in on the narrative, it's really Sodom we're talking about.

Speaker 17 And then Gomorrah kind of tags along. So that gets us to the end of the chapter 18.
And then the narrative switches.

Speaker 17 And what happens is basically these other two men who are now suddenly called, what are called malachim in Hebrew, angels, messengers, not human beings in any case, they're sent to Sodom and they go to the house of Lot.

Speaker 17 And again, this hospitality theme recurs. Lot brings them in.
He shows them hospitality. The problem is, the Sodomites are the antithesis to that.

Speaker 17 They show up at the door of Lot and they demand that Lot give these two men, angels, whatever they are, to the crowd, to the mob, and in proper euphemistic biblical words, so that they may know them.

Speaker 17 And that specific line is where a whole bunch of associations of Sodom with sexual deviancy and other different sexual acts, that's where that derives from, because the threat is quite clearly sexual assault of some kind.

Speaker 17 Lot refuses. There's a strange offer to send his own daughters out to appease the mob.

Speaker 17 It didn't come to fruition because ultimately the messengers, the men, the angels, they managed to ferry Lot and his family out of the city, his wife, his children, to the nearby other city of the plain called Zoar.

Speaker 17 And then we get the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, presumably as well, with, again, these classical King James words, fire and brimstone.

Speaker 17 No one knows what brimstone is anymore, but it's just sulfur. So the story essentially ends there.

Speaker 17 And then after this episode, these two cities, Sodom and Gomorrah, become bywords for sin and punishment.

Speaker 17 And they're going to enter into the biblical imagination as these archetypes of those two outcomes, which obviously happens quite a bit, recurs quite a bit in the unfolding history of Israel and then Judah.

Speaker 22 Describing enemy cities, I'm guessing, is Sodom and Gomorrah or describing their own cities.

Speaker 17 Jerusalem is destroyed by the Babylonians because it was sinful and it's being punished. Samaria, the northern capital of the northern kingdom, is destroyed for the exact same reason.

Speaker 17 So in the Psalms and in various other texts, in fact, far more often they describe their own cities as Sodom and Gomorrah. A couple times they will label places like Babylon.

Speaker 22 But it's interesting also how there is a lot, and you've mentioned this to me before we started recording, I mean, theological baggage with those two chapters, isn't there, surrounding Sodom and Gomorrah and this whole narrative saving this one family related to Abraham, but then everyone else is just consigned to being destroyed by God.

Speaker 22 I mean, the theological discussions are aplenty in the chapter.

Speaker 17 Exactly. So it's extremely theologically loaded based on the questions of sin and of mercy and of proportional destruction.
And the other component is also that it's bound up in this bigger narrative.

Speaker 17 The Sodom and Gomorrah story that most people would know from chapters 18 and 19 concern Abraham and his wife Sarah.

Speaker 17 And the catch is also is that it's part of this broader narrative about Abraham or Abram and his kinsman Lot.

Speaker 17 And so when we encounter other references to Sodom and Gomorrah and then the five cities of the plains, which we'll get to, it's assume that narrative that I just described, chapters 18 and 19.

Speaker 17 But we now think that that's a pretty late development.

Speaker 17 Sodom and Gomorrah is probably an old tradition, folk tradition, but that specific story with all of the details with Lot, with the three messengers or the three divine beings, the hospitality theme, the sexual deviancy component.

Speaker 17 It's only there. No other biblical text seems to be aware that Abraham has anything to do with Sodom and Gomorrah.
But the problem is that once you read that story, you kind of can't escape it.

Speaker 17 You always are going to be, with every reference to Sodom and Gomorrah, thinking of that whole story. So what I'm trying to piece apart here is

Speaker 17 maybe

Speaker 17 if that's the last piece added, there is to get to some of the, if not the historicity of these events, at least to access what the oldest story was. And it's not there, is what I'm trying to say.

Speaker 22 But is that important to highlight also? We might think today, book of Genesis, at the beginning of the Bible, it must have been written first. But of course, almost it feels like an onion.

Speaker 22 There are so many different layers to these stories. And when they're added and compiled together, it's not that the oldest stories are at the beginning.

Speaker 22 and that the stories we have today were the earliest versions of them either.

Speaker 17 Right, exactly.

Speaker 17 It's something that that I struggle to teach the students sometimes is that there's a clear narrative trajectory in the Bible from the beginning of time to more or less the Persian period.

Speaker 17 And at certain points, that intersects with actual chronology. But again, it's a narrative chronology.

Speaker 17 So when something occurs early in the biblical text or it's based early, it doesn't have much bearing on when that text was actually written.

Speaker 17 So the best example is the story of creation is probably pretty late, whereas a prophetic text like Hosea is probably much older.

Speaker 17 So you can't exactly correlate the narrative context with the scribal context, the composition of those texts.

Speaker 20 This episode is sponsored by Ruler.

Speaker 20 Finding a therapist who not only has time for new clients, but also actually takes your insurance can feel impossible. Deciding to reach out and ask for help is huge.

Speaker 20 To then be hit by wall after wall can be so demoralizing.

Speaker 20 Many therapists don't take insurance packages at all, which means that you're stuck paying the full cost out of pocket or paying for an expensive monthly subscription. That's where Ruler comes in.

Speaker 20 They partner with over 100 insurance plans, making the average copay just $15 per session.

Speaker 20 Now that's real therapy from licensed professionals chosen based on your particular situation at a price that actually makes sense.

Speaker 20 You use your insurance benefits to maintain your physical health, so why wouldn't you do the same for your mental health?

Speaker 20 Thousands of people are already using Ruler to get affordable, high-quality therapy that's actually covered by insurance. Visit ruler.com/slash ancients to get started.

Speaker 20 After you sign up, you'll be asked how you heard about them. Please support our show and let them know we sent you.
That's rula.com/slash ancients.

Speaker 20 You deserve mental health care that that works with you, not against your budget.

Speaker 16 And now, through December 2nd, stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Musinex Cold and Flu Kickstart, Musinex Fast Max products, VIX Daquil and Nyquil Combo Pack, Alca Cell Surplus, also Airborne and Afrin.

Visit Safeway.com for more details.

Speaker 4 But with Zinn nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 6 Zinn is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 9 There are lots of options when it comes to nicotine satisfaction, but there's only one Zin.

Speaker 10 Check out Zinn.com/slash find to find Zin at a store near you.

Speaker 21 Hi folks, it's Mark Bittman from the podcast Food with Mark Bittman.

Speaker 21 You know, whether you are doing traditional Thanksgiving, a friend's giving, or something in between, Whole Foods Market has great everyday prices on all the things you need for Thanksgiving.

Speaker 21 No way antibiotics ever birds bring quality to your table at a great price. You can enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market.

Speaker 21 And remember, Prime gives you shop online and delivery or pickup as you like.

Speaker 22 We've covered that main narrative story of Genesis book 18 to 19, but there's another part of the book of Genesis, isn't there, which talks about Sodom and and Gomorrah that I feel we need to talk about first before visiting those other cities and the historicity and archaeology about it.

Speaker 17 Right, exactly.

Speaker 17 So this gets to a completely different, also in Genesis, but it's a completely different chapter in chapter 14, which is a chapter that has long been recognized as one of the strangest chapters in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 17 It's going all over the place in terms of what it's talking about, its content. It concerns international politics, which is completely out of place in the book of Genesis.

Speaker 17 That's more at home in kind of kings and Samuel and things like that. It has Abram in this section essentially as a king with an army that he raises.

Speaker 17 He encounters a strange priest called Melchizedek, who's the priest of El Elyon in pre-Israelite Jerusalem.

Speaker 17 And then, of course, there's these references to this strange battle between the four kings of the east and then the five cities of the plain.

Speaker 17 And so what's most interesting here, before I even get into the content of Genesis 14, is that this is the story.

Speaker 17 This is the Sodom and Gomorrah, and then the three other cities, that other biblical texts seem to know. They don't know Genesis 18 through 19, at least there's no clear indication.

Speaker 17 But texts like Amos 4, Hosea 11, and 1 Isaiah, so texts that we tend to date earlier, or at least while there's still a monarchy around, they know this text. They know this story.

Speaker 17 And the associations of Sodom and Gomorrah, therefore, are not with sin and punishment and all all of the details in chapters 18 and 19, but with the strange battle in chapter 14.

Speaker 22 Sorry, just to interject there, you mentioned a monarchy and all that. Just so we know, what do you mean by a monarchy there? What are we talking about?

Speaker 17 Right, so we're talking about the existence of biblical or Israelite and Judahite monarchies. Basically, timeframe we're imagining here is roughly 1,000 till 586.

Speaker 17 So texts produced in that period, we call monarchic. Texts produced after 586 when Judahites were exiled into Babylon, we'll call exilic.

Speaker 17 And then their return, I mean, there's phases of return, but we'll say roughly, you know, 539 and later into the Persian period is post-Exilic.

Speaker 17 So the only text other biblical traditions seem to know is this Genesis 14. So what is Genesis 14? The story basically picks up with, again, it's about Abram.
He's living near the city of Hebron.

Speaker 17 That's currently in the West Bank, not too far from Jerusalem, but not at the Dead Sea, importantly. And his brother Lot has settled in the city of Sodom.

Speaker 17 So that kind of gives us the connection to the bigger picture.

Speaker 17 But the actual content of Genesis 14, at least the first 11 verses, have nothing to do with Abram, have nothing to do with Lot, have nothing to do with that.

Speaker 17 It talks about a group of four Eastern kings who make war on the cities of the plain. So I suppose I'll start with the Eastern kings.
So first off, none of these kings are known from history.

Speaker 17 Their names are clearly meant to evoke Eastern empires. Some are accurate and some are less clear, but we can't identify any of them.
The first king is Amraphel, king of Shinar.

Speaker 17 Shinar, we know, is how biblical writers refer to the land of Sumer that is extreme south of modern Iraq.

Speaker 22 A place like Uruk and Dur in the Sumerian kind of area.

Speaker 17 Exactly. Yeah, yeah.
So pre-Babylon Babylon, basically. The next is Ariach, king of Elassar.
No idea. No idea about these.

Speaker 17 There's hypotheses, but really this is the only reference to this king or to this place. The other king is Hidor Laomar.

Speaker 17 That's a tricky name, because it's an Elamite name, and Elam is pre-Persian Iran. So it's an ancient kingdom as well.
And the last is Tidal, king of the Goim, and Goim just means the nations.

Speaker 17 So these are

Speaker 17 figures who the biblical writers are associated with extremely great antiquity, but also coming from the East. So

Speaker 17 Before they get to the Dead Sea, we learn about how these kings of the East, they kind of have some kind of coalition.

Speaker 17 They come, they fight with a motley crew of peoples who are the peoples of the land as far as the biblical writers are concerned these are the the pre-Israelite inhabitants so again they're clearly setting these events in a very very ancient past in the very distant past so these kings encounter groups like the Rephaim which are often remembered as giants the Amalekites this quintessential enemy of Israel the Hurrians which is a Bronze Age people who lived up in kind of Syria a northern region, and other obscure groups.

Speaker 17 So they come, make war with these peoples before then turning their attention to the cities of the plain. And finally, we get to the cities of the plains.

Speaker 17 So we have Bera, king of Sodom, one of the targets, Birsha, king of Gomorrah, and then we get the other cities of the plains.

Speaker 17 We have a king of a place called Admah named Shinob, a king of a place called Zeboim named Shemeber, and then a king or the king of Bela.

Speaker 17 We don't know if that's the name of the king or the name of the town, which is associated with this Zoar. Zoar is the place where Lot and his family fled at the destruction of Sodom.

Speaker 17 So these are the enemies of these Eastern kings. And long story short, they lose the fight.
And the instigator of all of this, Kerdola Omar, king of Elam, he takes prisoner Lot.

Speaker 17 So this is the kinsman of Abram. But only after 11 verses, I should say, does Abram suddenly appear in the story.
And then it goes in strange directions.

Speaker 17 So it really seems like this whole chapter is a bit of a patchwork, but that first 11 verses, that looks like some kind of a core old story, at least as far as it's represented in other texts, because in other texts, we have these other cities named.

Speaker 17 So Zeboim and Adma are named in other biblical texts. So they know these places.
And in fact, those places are sometimes named without Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 17 So exactly what the association is with these cities and this story is not entirely entirely clear, but at least we know that biblical writers are aware of it outside of the book of Genesis.

Speaker 22 Is it also interesting? Because what really struck me is when you mentioned how it's almost kind of the coming together of five different cities.

Speaker 22 And if memory serves me right, isn't it with the Philistines later that they have five cities and sometimes later you hear like the Pentapolis, five city-states together?

Speaker 22 You almost see this repeating idea of five cities being linked in some sort of entity or another in particular stories.

Speaker 17 Yeah, I hadn't actually thought of that or made that connection. That's a a great connection.
I'm sure somebody has somewhere in the literature.

Speaker 17 But I mean, it's important then, too, because, of course, the Pentapolis becomes kind of the fixation of the enemy in the early history of Israel, at least as it's depicted.

Speaker 17 So there may be a connection there. Now, the question is just how fixed were these five cities of the plane?

Speaker 17 Because eventually they start to get paired off, and Sodom and Gomorrah kind of stand on their own. Adma and Zeboim are mentioned on their own as well.

Speaker 17 But at least, I guess, when we think about bringing all of these diverse traditions together, it becomes five, and that could be significant.

Speaker 17 Just as significant as well is the four Eastern kings, because the places that they're associated with, Sumer, Elam, maybe something in the north and maybe something in the west, these might fall into a basic cognitive map of the ancient Near Eastern world, which is, you know, usually makes its appearance in royal inscriptions as the four quarters of the world, which is much like the cardinal directions, northeast, south, west.

Speaker 17 They describe these in terms of cultures. And certainly Sumer and Elam are two cardinal directions.
The other two places, we have no clue where they are, so we can't really decide.

Speaker 17 But some scholars tend to think that that's what's being evoked here, that these are the kings of the whole world coming to bring war to the Dead Sea region.

Speaker 22 But also, it's almost like the five cities standing up against these powerful, mighty powers coming from the east.

Speaker 22 And as you've highlighted earlier, if this is the story that includes Sodom and Gomorrah, that seems to be more better known when referring to these cities later in the Bible.

Speaker 22 Should we therefore think that actually many of the people who were reading the Bible would not have associated Sodom and Gomorrah first and foremost with sin and infamy, but actually this story of defense against these powers to the east, first of all?

Speaker 17 It's certainly possible. It's hard to exactly tell because there is some kind of a judgmental tone in even some of these earlier ones.
They talk a lot about the overthrow of these cities.

Speaker 17 And

Speaker 17 so, whether or not that judgmental tone is there in the original narrative, we just have Genesis 14. In the prophetic texts, Amos, Hosea, Isaiah, there is that judgmental tone.

Speaker 17 So they do somewhat associate it, which makes sense because then there's

Speaker 17 room for extrapolation in chapters 18 and 19 then to really build on this.

Speaker 17 So there is a sense even in this early stage that these places got what they deserved.

Speaker 17 But I should also add that after we leave verse 11 and go into verse 12, Abram shows back up, he musters an army, he goes to war with Herdola Omar, and he is victorious.

Speaker 17 So there's also this kind of redemption through the figure of Abram, who's for the only time in the entire book of Genesis acting like a king here.

Speaker 17 So it's really hard to tell, I would say, if all of this sin and sanction emerges only in those chapters, but it's certainly much less prominent in chapter 14.

Speaker 22 Well, let's now look at the location, as you mentioned earlier there, Dylan.

Speaker 22 So is it believed, or I mean, is it expressly mentioned that, as you said, the location right by the Dead Sea or in the Dead Sea? I mean, what does it seem to suggest?

Speaker 17 Yeah, so it seems almost definitive that the imagined landscape of both these stories is probably just south of the Dead Sea because of, well, for reasons I'm about to get to.

Speaker 17 So let's start with the oldest story, at least what we think looks like the oldest story, which is Genesis 14. Now, there's some references just to the geology of the region, the city of the plain.

Speaker 17 It's taken to be the plain of Jordan. Now, where exactly the plain of Jordan is, that can be a lot of different places.

Speaker 17 But usually, if they're going to refer to, let's say, just the region east of the Jordan River, that's usually the plateau or the highlands.

Speaker 17 The plain is usually associated with this area just to the south of the Dead Sea. Again, we're not 100% sure this is historical geography.

Speaker 17 But we get a little bit of clarification that the battle happens in a place called the Valley of Siddim, and then it says explicitly that is the Salt Sea.

Speaker 17 So we're fairly certain, at least in the biblical writers' imaginations, these cities were located down there.

Speaker 17 But also then they start to describe certain geological features that pretty much seal the deal.

Speaker 17 So the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, there's really no doubt that they're talking about the region of the Dead Sea.

Speaker 17 Just the reference to sulfur or King James's brimstone is a very basic geological reality of the area. I don't know if you've ever visited the Dead Sea or anything around it yet.

Speaker 17 It's a strange, alien world. It's absolutely going to be inspiring of stories reflecting on what could have possibly happened here to make this place like this.
And so you can imagine

Speaker 17 stories being spun just based on the experience of being at the Dead Sea. Salt, complete lack of vegetation, sulfur, extreme heat.

Speaker 17 I mean, the temperatures around the Dead Sea regularly exceed 40 degrees Celsius. It's kind of hellish, really.

Speaker 17 So surely, if there were cities here, they must have done something horrible to result in this, especially when everything around is more or less fairly fertile.

Speaker 22 Do you think that there is any potential historicity or historical basis behind the stories of Sodom and Gomorrah, or at least kind of cities in that environment?

Speaker 22 Maybe the wider five cities that are mentioned together?

Speaker 17 For the most part, at least as the narratives are concerned, I'd say no. I think these narratives are what we call etiologies, because

Speaker 17 in both Genesis 14 and especially Genesis 18, 19, they really conclude with explanations for what the landscape looks like. Now, were there cities there? Yes.

Speaker 17 There were cities there, especially in the early Bronze Age. So these would have been ruins by the time biblical writers are composing these stories.
So you can kind of imagine that.

Speaker 17 And maybe I can touch a little bit on the fact that there were archaeological surveys in and around the region, scholars looking for Sodom and Gomorrah, of course, Sirius surveys also going on in the 1970s.

Speaker 17 Thomas Schaub and his co-director Walter Rast, they did a fairly thorough survey of the region. In 1973, they do find a couple of sites, Bada Bad Ed Dara, which is an early Bronze Age site.

Speaker 17 So early Bronze Age is putting us somewhere around 3200 to 2000 BCE,

Speaker 17 something like that. And this was a fairly big site,

Speaker 17 and it did come to a fairly dramatic end around the end of the early Bronze Age there. And then about 13 kilometers south of that, they found another site, Numira.

Speaker 17 So there we have our two, Sodom and Gomorrah. Pick which one you want to be which.
And it also is destroyed around this time period.

Speaker 17 But again, This puts us about, you know, 1500 years between the destruction of those cities and the composition of those texts.

Speaker 17 So my inclination then is not that these cities are Sodom and Gomorrah or that the narratives describing their destruction are really connected to these archaeological sites, but what I can imagine is that people, biblical writers and Israelites and Judahites who living in the region, who would have obviously encountered the strange geological features of the landscape and perhaps see these types of ruins, would have come up with stories explaining how these cities, which nobody could live there at that time, could have existed.

Speaker 17 Perhaps the landscape was once fertile. And in fact, we have a biblical description of this area is essentially a garden of Eden.

Speaker 17 And it was fertile until they sinned and the region was more or less desolated. So that's kind of what I imagine the history being, is ancient encounters with the landscape.

Speaker 17 You don't need to go any further than the biblical text itself, than the book of Genesis itself. There's two explanations for that possibility, right?

Speaker 17 One is this group of four kings from the east came and destroyed these cities.

Speaker 17 And the landscape was always like that, at least in that story.

Speaker 17 And then Genesis 18 and 19 and some other texts offer an alternative explanation about how that region transformed from what was once a fertile landscape into a desolate place.

Speaker 17 And then this explanation of sin and punishment comes in. So that's kind of where I see the Sodom and Gomorrah tradition.

Speaker 17 They stand as archetypes of punishment because of the landscape, because the landscape is punishing. And no one can live there in the days of these biblical writers.

Speaker 17 So why people could have lived there in the past begs some kind of explanation. And the biblical writers are human beings who want to explain the world in which they live as well.

Speaker 17 And they offer two explanations for us.

Speaker 22 If you're saying that that later story of Sodom and Gomorrah is written post the sack of Jerusalem by the Babylonians, and then you have the Judeans either coming back from Jerusalem or those writing in exile.

Speaker 22 And I guess they have a different agenda for wanting to write write than a story of Sodom and Gomorrah compared to those writing pre-that time.

Speaker 22 You can see the different agendas of the writer right there as to why they create that story.

Speaker 17 Right. Yeah.
So the association of Sodom and Gomorrah, just generically with sin, it's not exclusively associated to Genesis 18 and 19.

Speaker 17 There does seem to be other texts that are aware of this association.

Speaker 17 But what's interesting is the detail and the fixation on very particular types of sin and punishment really come to the fore in what we call exilic and post-exilic literature.

Speaker 17 And no more is it is it more explicit than outside of Genesis than in Ezekiel, and specifically in Ezekiel 16, where

Speaker 17 he's explicit about the fact that Jerusalem is the new sodom and its punishment is more or less understood in analogous terms.

Speaker 17 So with that, you know, understanding in mind, a lot of scholars, based on other factors which have to do with the growth and development of the book of Genesis, kind of see this is a setting when that Genesis 18 through 19 story makes the most sense coming into existence.

Speaker 22 So, trying to explain why Jerusalem was destroyed, why God allowed that to happen. Is it kind of that thinking, right?

Speaker 17 Exactly. And Ezekiel makes clear also that for as bad as Jerusalem is, it's not quite as bad as Sodom because there's a remnant.

Speaker 17 There is the possibility for return and renewal, which obviously is something Sodom and Gomorrah don't get.

Speaker 17 So it's not all negative, but it definitely shows us a moment when those motifs and those archetypes would have been of great interest to biblical writers because Ezekiel dedicates essentially an entire chapter to it.

Speaker 16 And now through December 2nd, stock up on all the season's essentials and get ready for relief with discounts on items like Mucinex Cold and Flu Kickstart, Musinex Fast Max products, VIX Daquil and Nyquil combo pack, Alka Selsur Plus, also airborne and Afrin.

Visit safeway.com for more details.

Speaker 4 But with Zen nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 6 Zin is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 10 Check out zinn.com/slash find to find Zinn at a store near you.

Speaker 22 Now, I'd like to return to archaeology and Sodom and Gomorrah in the 20th century, Dylan, because I got in my notes something called the Ebler Bible Controversy.

Speaker 22 Now, what was this and how does it relate to Sodom and Gomorrah?

Speaker 17 Right, so 1970s, kind of a decade of great interest in Sodom and Gomorrah. So we have Rast and Schaub who are conducting these archaeological surveys all around the southern plain of the Dead Sea.

Speaker 17 They're finding sites like Badadara Badadara and Umayra.

Speaker 17 And right around this time, in 1976, Italian archaeologists in Syria, in western Syria, discovered a massive archive of an ancient city known as Ebla. The city is also extremely ancient.

Speaker 17 The texts date to sometime around 2300 BCE. So to give you an idea, this is about the time of Sargon of Akkad.
These are extremely old texts,

Speaker 17 but they're very difficult to decipher even today, some 50 years after their discovery. You can imagine how difficult it was to decipher them in the initial years after their discovery.

Speaker 17 Nonetheless, a certain epigrapher of the expedition, Giovanni Petinato, he starts trying to work through these texts.

Speaker 17 He finds a document that seems to be listing various cities, and he notes some of the cities, or interprets some of the cities, as nothing else but these cities of the plain, Sodom, Gomorrah, Zeboim, Adma, and Bela, or Zoar.

Speaker 17 And he makes a very ostentatious claim. He goes to a couple conferences and says, hey, look, these are the names of the cities of the plain.
These cities that Rast and Shaub are uncovering.

Speaker 17 They are showing up in roughly contemporary texts from ancient Syria.

Speaker 17 They're real. Sodom and Gomorrah did exist.
Now, the problem was we knew so little about Eblite, which is a very obscure Semitic language, and it's written in really archaic Sumerian signs, basically.

Speaker 17 So, what Petinado was translating then, first off, wasn't published, so no one could really check his work outside of the members of the excavation, and the other member of the excavation disagreed with him vehemently.

Speaker 17 So, what ultimately happens is this claim, it got scaled back one by one, city by city.

Speaker 17 The reading was wrong until we finally ultimately understood what this text was, which is describing cities in Mesopotamia. It has nothing to do with Jordan.

Speaker 17 So, it fizzled out, but you can imagine the 1970s there. They're finding the remains of cities.
We're finding texts that may mention them. So there was a great interest.

Speaker 17 And then basically by 1980, all of this kind of fizzles out. The archaeologists start to just talk about really these are, for the most part, cemetery sites.

Speaker 17 They don't seem to have the major urban centers that are described in the biblical texts.

Speaker 17 They're interesting early Bronze Age sites for the region, but Let's stop trying to interpret them through the lens of the Bible, which more or less brings us to where we're at today.

Speaker 22 I must also ask, ask, because it is really interesting when exploring biblical stories, parallels with other stories from the ancient world, is Sodom and Gomorrah different?

Speaker 22 Are there any parallel stories that we can see in other ancient cultures? I said, my mind, actually, we go to someone like Atlantis, kind of a similarity there of a city destroyed by the gods.

Speaker 22 But I mean, are there others that we can talk about?

Speaker 17 There are sets of texts which are known as city laments, and they're all composed in Sumerian. And they're not quite directly having gods destroy the cities.

Speaker 17 They are more or less describing great conflagrations of places like Uruk and Ur by human agents, but within the texts, it's divine agency is completely intermingled.

Speaker 17 So the goddess or the god departs their temple, and that enables the flood to sweep over, these destructions to happen.

Speaker 17 And of course, Jerusalem itself is the obvious other parallel for Sodom and Gomorrah of divine judgment.

Speaker 17 So the destruction of any city, I think, would, at least in some respects in the ancient Near Eastern mindset, be a result of divine causation. Things don't happen unless the gods will them.

Speaker 17 So I'm not so sure I'd have trouble finding parallels. I think I'd probably find too many parallels.
And it's just degrees of similarity.

Speaker 22 It is ironic that the Atlantics narrative is perhaps the most similar, at least as a typology of divine destruction of a city and its complete annihilation and disappearance forever, because usually these cities are then rebuilt and i don't know what to make of that i sometimes think just human cultures have a tendency to converge in that way well i guess also that human mindset isn't it because actually that wider narrative of a city either being conquered or being destroyed because in the eyes of the victorious that city become decadent and all of those things where they're partying too much and then another power comes in overpowers them and the reasons they give is because well that city just became a place of sin the romans do it multiple times with cities that they capture i think of tarentum monte taranto in southern italy they label the greeks there as becoming incredibly decadent and a city of sin corinth as well so actually if we kind of explore that wider narrative Solomon Gomorrah, of course, the fact that it's destroyed and never rebuilt, but actually it's a human mindset thing of people trying to explain why a city was destroyed or conquered is because their city just became a place of sin and they were taken over by people who who considered themselves more virtuous, I guess.

Speaker 17 Right.

Speaker 17 And I think that's actually exactly in some of the Ezekiel texts, is that he's not fixating on specific sins, much less a specific sexual sin of Sodom, but he's labeling them as excessive and decadent and exactly these same parameters.

Speaker 17 Because again, he's trying to justify and explain these calamities. Why do these things happen? Because otherwise the world is a very scary place and randomness is not a good thing, right?

Speaker 17 You want cause and effect rather than four strange Eastern empires coming and capriciously destroying your cities and you have no control over.

Speaker 17 So I think what we see across these cultures then is justification, but also maybe a bit of catharsis, that if we just avoid those things, we won't be the Persians, we won't be the Greeks, we won't be the Atlanteans.

Speaker 22 Whoever it is, yeah, yeah, exactly. Don't share that same kind of fate.

Speaker 22 When we did a poll, we did a poll after our Tower of Babel episode asking which story from the Old Old Testament you'd like us to cover next.

Speaker 22 And the overwhelming answer for that, the one which had the most votes, was Sodom and Gomorrah. And we had some other juicy topics in there, like David and Goliath and so on and so forth.

Speaker 22 So, Dylan, why do you think that of all the stories in the Bible, including the Old Testament and the New Testament, but why Sodom and Gomorrah is always there in like a top five most popular or people want to hear about?

Speaker 22 Why has it remained such a well-known, intriguing story to people down to the present day?

Speaker 17 I think there's a certain level of familiarity with the terms, obviously.

Speaker 22 Sodomites and stuff like that.

Speaker 17 Sodomites and just a cultural awareness of it. So that already kind of sparks the interest.
If you know about something or you think you know about something, you're going to have that interest.

Speaker 17 So they're well known. The next thing is they're lost.
They're not to be found anymore. They're Atlantis, right? So that's appealing.
It's not just, you know, Rome was destroyed.

Speaker 17 Rome was destroyed, but you can still go to Rome and see it, right? I think it was the same appeal with Troy, right? We need to find these lost civilizations, which is why there's so much media.

Speaker 17 And everyone's always disappointed when you do find it, right? We find Troy and it's, oh, it's an ancient Anatolian culture. How disappointing, right?

Speaker 17 And of course, the same would be for Sodom and Gomorrah.

Speaker 17 But I think so long as we don't have these places, we aren't able to pinpoint them on a map, there's kind of a sense of adventure and discovery that could still be there.

Speaker 17 And so Sodom and Gomorrah offer that.

Speaker 17 The biblical connections, obviously, are going to speak to people of faith by finding these cities, reinforcing, you know, the concrete dynamics of their belief systems.

Speaker 17 So anything with the Bible always has that really important and heavy component. So I think that's probably the dynamics.
And then again, there's always

Speaker 17 the personal connections, which I can't really account for. But I think that's enough to explain why it pulled so well.

Speaker 22 Dylan, this has been fantastic. Always a a pleasure to get you on the podcast.
And it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on.

Speaker 17 Thanks, it was a blast.

Speaker 19 Well, there you go. There was Dr.
Dylan Johnson talking you through the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode.
Thank you for listening.

Speaker 19 Please follow the ancients on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps us, and you'll be doing us a big favor.

Speaker 19 Now, if you want more ancient history videos and clips in the meantime, then also be sure to follow me on Instagram at ancientstristan.

Speaker 19 Don't forget you can also listen to the ancients and all of history hits podcasts at free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

Speaker 19 That's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

Speaker 23 This holiday season, millions of families will pack their bags, load up the car, and head off for a family vacation. But not every trip is going to be somewhere fun.

Speaker 23 The American Red Cross responds to about 7,000 emergencies during the holiday season alone, from home fires to natural disasters, providing families a safe place to go when the unthinkable happens.

Speaker 23 But they can't do it without your support. Please donate at redcross.org.

Speaker 3 If you're a smoker or vapor ready to make a change, you really only need one good reason.

Speaker 4 But with Zin nicotine pouches, you'll discover many good reasons.

Speaker 6 Zin is America's number one nicotine pouch brand.

Speaker 10 Check out zinn.com/slash find to find Zin at a store near you.

Speaker 2 Warning: this product contains nicotine. Nicotine is an addictive chemical.