Göbekli Tepe: The First Temple?

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Speaker 5 6,000 years ago, before Stonehenge was built in southeast Turkey, groups of people were getting together and creating some of the earliest known monumental stone structures from anywhere in the world.

Speaker 5 Of these, the most famous are at Gebekli Tepe.

Speaker 5 The site is home to large round buildings made of local limestone, full of impressive T-shaped monoliths and sculptures depicting headless humans and animals from the landscape.

Speaker 3 In the past, Gebekli Tepe has been labeled the first temple. But as you're about to hear, that's not the case.

Speaker 5 It's much more complex.

Speaker 3 It's the ancients on history hit.

Speaker 5 I'm Tristan Hughes, your host. Today we're exploring the fascinating story of Gobekli Tepe, one of the oldest human sedentary settlements ever found.

Speaker 5 Think of it very loosely as a 10,000-year-old early Neolithic village. And by Neolithic, I mean that period of time after the Ice Age when people started to adopt a settled farming lifestyle.

Speaker 5 Gebekle Tepe is quickly becoming one of the most famous early Neolithic settlements from anywhere in the world. and the archaeology is breathtaking.

Speaker 5 Our guest today is Dr. Lee Clare, an archaeologist who coordinates the Gebekle Tepe research project at the German Archaeological Institute.

Speaker 5 Lee is one of the leading experts on the archaeology so far uncovered at Kebekle Tepe and what it has so far revealed about the people who lived there 10,000 years ago.

Speaker 5 It was a pleasure to interview him about the Stone Age mystery that is Gebekle Tepe.

Speaker 5 Lee, it is a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

Speaker 3 Well, thank you for having me.

Speaker 5 It's my pleasure because to talk about Gekli Tepe, I mean, this feels like Lee, one of the most exciting archaeological projects to be working on in this moment in time.

Speaker 5 The stuff that is coming out of the ground is extraordinary.

Speaker 3 Well, it's been quite special for quite a number of years now. And of course, in the meantime, there are other sites as well that are coming out on the same age with similar material culture.

Speaker 3 So it's a... The area itself, the region is very exciting.

Speaker 5 And we'll highlight that, how Gobekle Tepe is almost the name that people think of, but that there's more archaeology beside Gebekle Tepe.

Speaker 5 But set the scene for us first of all, Lee, where in the world are we talking about with Gebekli Tepe?

Speaker 3 Okay, we're talking about southeastern Turkey. I mean, if you grab your map and Google Shannon Woofer, you'll find the city in the southeastern part of Turkey.

Speaker 3 It's in the upper Euphrates basin, so it's between the Euphrates River and the Tigris River, two very important rivers, of course, in prehistory.

Speaker 3 Also in a region commonly referred to as Upper Mesopotamia. So we're in a very key region for nilatization.

Speaker 3 So the first sort of introduction of farming, settled communities, I mean, it's where it all took off, really. It's one of those core regions of nilitization in the world.

Speaker 5 So is it on the cusp of the fertile crescent that is a popular today?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 5 And with the topography of Kebekle Tepe today, should we be imagining, I mean, can you see the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers, or is it quite high up in the landscape?

Speaker 5 What should we be envisaging on the ground at Kebekle Tepe?

Speaker 3 Okay, at Kebekitepe, you wouldn't see the Euphrates, in fact, from the site. We are quite a number of kilometres to the east of the Euphrates River and also to the west of the Tigris.

Speaker 3 So we're sort of in between, more towards the Euphrates but between the two rivers and it's a hilly region. We're overlooking the Haran Plain to the south.

Speaker 3 We're about four or five hundred meters above the Haran Plain, so about 770 meters above sea level.

Speaker 3 The foothills of the eastern Taurus Mountains come through southern Turkey and actually from the site itself when you look northwards, I was actually there just last week, it's been snowing in the mountains there.

Speaker 3 And from the Gebekitepe site, you can actually look northwards towards the eastern Taurus and see their snow-covered peaks.

Speaker 3 You can actually see Nemrudda, which is another UNESCO World Heritage site there in the region. A bit younger than Gebekitepe, obviously.
But it's

Speaker 3 a Taurus foothill sort of region looking down onto the onto the plain of Haran, which then extends southwards into northern Syria.

Speaker 5 And Nemruda, is that Mount Nemrud with those famous sculptures of faces in the big rock?

Speaker 3 Yes,

Speaker 5 Kingdom of Commagene and so on. I said that's a topic for another day indeed.

Speaker 5 Now, in regards to when we're talking about with Gobeklitepe, in passingly, you also mentioned that whole process of Neolithicization. And I might get that.
I might butcher the wording of that.

Speaker 5 But with that whole process, I mean, how far back are we going with the story of Gebekle Tepe?

Speaker 3 Okay, I mean, Gobekitepe itself doesn't date back to the very sort of, you know, Neolithization is something that happened over a very long period of time.

Speaker 3 You know, it didn't actually start in the early Holocene sort of components of that package, Nithic package, we often talk about different sort of components in that package, like being settled, like sedentism, or domestication of animals, secondary products like milk and sheep and animal traction.

Speaker 3 It's all part of that Nilitization sort of story, whereby the earliest sort of signs of that sedentism are quite much earlier than Gobeki Tepe and they appear in the Levant.

Speaker 3 in the late Paleolithic, in the late Pleistocene. So, you know, we're talking about 15,000, 20,000 years before or present, in fact.
So that's the ice age, that's still the earth.

Speaker 3 That's the late ice age, yeah. But of course, Gobekitapa comes in about 9,600, 9,500 BC.

Speaker 3 So at the beginning of the early Holocene, which is a climate amelioration following the end of the Younger Dryas. So the Younger Dryas are a cold, dry phase at the end of the last ice age.
And

Speaker 3 this early Holocene period, of course, that's when things really sort of become much more lush in this area. And you get the first settled communities coming in.

Speaker 3 And Gobekitepe is one of the first, I say one of the first, not the first, there are much, there are earlier settled communities in the region, but one of the first settled communities appearing in southeastern parts of Turkey.

Speaker 3 I know it's a bit more complicated than this, but is it almost like kind of that transitional phase between what has often been terms like hunter-gatherers, kind of very, you know, moving around small groups, small communities of people into what will ultimately be thousands of years later in that area, be like the emergence of farming and, you know, settled communities and ultimately the emergence of cities that kind of transitional period that's right i mean interestingly i mean from the period before mekitepe this sort of epipelithic in the in the late pleistocene like in the younger dryas we have very little evidence of human activity in fact further to the east in the tigris region we have a few sites where we do have like a continuous occupation from the younger dryas we already have a settlement actually and into the early holocene and that's sort of continuous whereby with us in in in shannof at the moment we don't have a site where we have that continuous occupation from the ice age into the into the early holocene but yeah the whole region we have to expect that there were people there was activity going on there we just haven't actually found it yet and i think it's just a question of time with the more intense investigations going on down in in the region now in shanuwafa i think we will find the the predecessors of Kebeki Tepe.

Speaker 3 There is one site that's quite early that's within the frame of the Tash Tepela project looking at these sites in the region, the Neolithic sites, which is PPNA in date, which is like, you know, early 10th millennium or mid-10th millennium, sorry.

Speaker 3 But as I say, the majority of sites down there, we're looking at like sort of late 10th and 9th millennium BC.

Speaker 5 Well, that's another term that we should address straight away. You said PPNA there, and I think there's PPNB2.
What do we mean by these two terms?

Speaker 3 Okay, I mean, PPN is the abbreviation for pre-pottery Neolithic,

Speaker 3 which means obviously, as I said earlier, we have this sort of neolatization process going on and pottery, the production of pottery, is one of the things that comes in during the neolatization.

Speaker 3 And at this point in time, we have sedentary populations, we have

Speaker 3 other things going on like I don't know, cultivation of wild cereal, but we don't yet have pottery. So it's getting there gradually, but we don't have pottery yet.

Speaker 3 That's why we term it pre-pottery Neolithic. And the pre-pottery Neolithic is then split up into different blocks, into an A block and to a B block.

Speaker 3 And the B also is separated or, you know, we distinguish between an early PPNB, a middle PPNB, and a late PPNB.

Speaker 3 So to give you a rough sort of chronology for that, we say the PPNA starts roughly about 9500 BC, so at the beginning of the early Holocene, the climate melioration, and goes about 8,700.

Speaker 3 8,700, we've got the PPNB coming in with the early PPNB, which goes about 8,200, and the middle PPNB starts, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, we're looking really,

Speaker 3 early PPNA is the earliest sort of manifestation of this sort of pre-poto neolithic in the region.

Speaker 5 Do we know why this area of the world would have been so attractive to these people some 10,000 years ago?

Speaker 5 Would there have been, should we be imagining some changes in the topography 10,000 years ago at the end of the ice age that made it more attractive than other areas for these early people to start becoming more sedentary in places like this?

Speaker 3 I don't think there are any sort of major changes in the topography.

Speaker 3 I mean, I think that came a bit later with farming, and then you have the erosion, alluviation, and that's something that came in a bit later.

Speaker 3 Regarding the environment, I mean, obviously, any region that's settled by human beings, you know, they can use it. We're very adaptive, you know, we can adapt to most things.

Speaker 3 Of course, you know, Gubekitepe was very attractive, I think. The region was very attractive at the time in the early Holocene.
We don't have a great deal of paleoclimate proxies from the region.

Speaker 3 We rely quite heavily on the archaeobotanics and the archaeozoology that we're getting from the excavated sites, so the animal bones and the pollen, preserved pollen or remains of certain plants.

Speaker 3 But we do know that it was a lot different to today's environment or to today's landscape, because of course today it's very much a cultural landscape, there's sort of farming going on, there's irrigation, there's no trees left in the plateau, it's on the plain.

Speaker 3 to the south. It's all very much a cultural landscape, as I said.
But in the early Holocene, so at the time of Kobeklitepe, it would have been a lot different.

Speaker 3 It would have been a sort of an open woodland with oak and wild almond. There would have been lots of grasses and of course your wild wheats would have been there as well.

Speaker 3 You would have had herds of gazelle. Gazelle was the most important animal for the hunters at that time.

Speaker 3 In the wetter areas you would have had wild boar, you would have had auroch, you would have had you know all of these animals running around.

Speaker 3 It would have been very a very attractive place for hunters and gatherers. But at the same time, as I say, I mean, you get that all around the world.

Speaker 3 And of course, the question as to why sedentism and why anilitization started here is a major topic that I think we would all love to answer the question why that was.

Speaker 3 But yeah, that's what it would have looked like 10,000, 11,000 years ago in this region.

Speaker 5 Well, the work by yourself and the team and everyone who's been working at Kebekli Tepe is slowly revealing more and more about the site.

Speaker 5 Just quickly on that, Lee, I mean, how long has archaeological work been going on at Kebekli Tepe? How long has the site been known?

Speaker 3 Okay, the site was first discovered in the 1960s, in fact,

Speaker 3 it was a survey operation looking for Niolitic sites, and that was conducted by Halet Chambel, who was a professor at the University of Istanbul, and also with colleagues from the United States, from Chicago, in fact.

Speaker 3 And they were doing a series of surveys in southeastern parts of Turkey and also in all that region down there, looking for first indications of the Neolithic in this region, because, of course, they had already found stuff in adjacent parts.

Speaker 3 For a long time, it was thought that Turkey was the modern sort of Anatolian peninsula, was avoided by the Neolithic because they thought you know people going around it it was too harsh the climate was too bad but of course around this time they were finding more and more evidence for neolithic activity in in anatolia for example chatal huyuk would be a

Speaker 3 site that was discovered at this time as well the work of mellard there and hajila but of course in in in the southeastern part of the country we have then you know sites like chionu which were discovered in the course of this survey but also gobekitepe was discovered during their survey work but was never excavated at the time i mean it wasn't actually excavated until the mid-1990s.

Speaker 5 And then from then on, has it been season on season, even with COVID, of learning more about the site?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, apart from the COVID year, we've been there, not me personally.

Speaker 3 Of course, the work at the site is very strongly connected to German research or two German researchers. Herald Hopman, who was actually the head of the institution where I work now.

Speaker 3 He was excavation director, was doing the work down there with the Schanderwoffer Museum.

Speaker 3 And he was then followed by his student, Klaus Schmidt, who's really well known for his excavations at Gobeki Tepe.

Speaker 3 He was always involved in the field work and then as excavation director in his own right after Halfmann retired and he was there until 2014 when he sadly passed away and then I came in and I happened to be there and you know the rest is history as you say but yeah I mean the site has been now under excavation for about 30 years.

Speaker 5 Well, there you go. Well I think we've set the context then really nicely for our chat now to delve into the archaeology so far uncoveredly.

Speaker 5 And I feel we need to discuss first of all, I guess, those big buildings at Gobekli Tepe that the site is most famous for.

Speaker 5 Now, what are these structures that always seem to be at the center of any newspaper article or any discussion of Gobekli Tepe today that the site is known for, first of all?

Speaker 3 Well, I'm very glad you didn't say the word temple.

Speaker 3 I mean,

Speaker 3 I'm holding myself back, Lee. I'm holding myself back.
Yeah, very good, because, of course, I'm not too keen on that word.

Speaker 3 Of course, it's actually, you know, in the media, you know, advertisements and everything, it's like, come and visit the world's first temples.

Speaker 3 I'm not too happy with that terminology for various reasons. But of course, I think, you know, I prefer a more neutral term.

Speaker 3 I refer to these structures as special buildings because they are special and they're buildings for that very simple reason.

Speaker 3 And regarding their function, I think, of course, they were probably ritual centers.

Speaker 3 There were rituals taking place in these structures. But at the same time, they were also being used for, you know.

Speaker 3 People were identifying themselves, or the groups were identifying themselves with these structures. They hold narratives.

Speaker 3 If you look at the pillars that are in these buildings with all of these carvings, those are narratives, those are stories that meant something to these people.

Speaker 3 So a lot more to do with identity, with community, with coming together, ritual. So I think temple would be a too narrow definition.

Speaker 3 And apart from that, of course, the term temple is very often associated with modern connotations of what religion is or religion.

Speaker 3 And of course, that's something we need to sort of get away from because, you know, we're

Speaker 3 12,000 years ago.

Speaker 5 So what should we be imagining with those structures you set kind of that explanation of various parts of these buildings that we're going to explore like the art as well and these pillars but for someone who actually doesn't know what the these buildings look like how should we be imagining these these large buildings that seem to always take up so much of the story of gebeka tepe

Speaker 3 okay i mean we've got so far we have i think eight excavated or partially excavated special buildings A to H, I think A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, S, 8, that's correct.

Speaker 3 We have eight partially excavated excavated special buildings.

Speaker 3 Now, the majority of these are actually sort of round oval in shape, in floor plan, as it were, with diameters of, you know, 10 to 20 meters, depending on

Speaker 3 where you're looking, which building it is. And they are buildings, they were roofed over, and they have walls.
And frequently it's said that they're dry stone walls. They're not dry stone walls.

Speaker 3 They have actually have mortar in between, so like a lot of mortar.

Speaker 3 and at regular intervals in the wall you have sort of t pillars so

Speaker 3 monoliths t shaped carved mainly or mostly in one piece from the natural limestone in the in the area of the site

Speaker 3 I'd say at regular intervals sometimes 10 11 12 in the circle within the walls and in the center of or near to the center of the building we have two upright T pillars which are larger for example if we're looking at building D which is one of the most impressive of the preserved or the most impressive of the buildings that we can see there today.

Speaker 3 The central pillars are about five and a half meters in height. So really quite tall, when you stand next to them and look up, it's quite an impressive thing to see.

Speaker 3 And of course they're carved with various depictions in low relief. Also we have high reliefs.
And of course on top of this structure would have been a roof. We know they were roofed over.

Speaker 3 And I think perhaps

Speaker 3 really the most intriguing of our new results is that these buildings were occupied or were in use for a very long period of time. You know, we're talking hundreds of years, in fact.

Speaker 3 We have radiocarbon data from the mud mortar from the walls, and we can see different building phases within that structure, and that tallies them with the radiocarbon dates.

Speaker 3 So we can say that the earliest phases of these buildings were like PPNA in date, so sort of end of the 10th millennium BC, and they actually continued into the early PPNB to about mid-9th millennium.

Speaker 3 So we're looking at sort of, you know, a few hundred years and these buildings were constantly being used, were being you know, reshaped and lots of recycling going on.

Speaker 3 They were moving tea pillars around, they were sort of erasing carvings and doing new carvings.

Speaker 3 So very much, they were never sort of built to one plan and then sort of completed, but it was a constantly changing structure.

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Speaker 5 But I love that you can get quite accurate dates from just examining, is it that early mortar discovered between those local limestone blocks?

Speaker 5 And you can analyse that building material to get a sense of how long this structure was used for.

Speaker 3 That's the only way of doing it. I mean, we have no other way of doing it at the present.

Speaker 3 Of course, we have the lithic finds from various contexts associated with the buildings. But of course, they just give a general date.

Speaker 3 But the radiocarbon data, that's really special because especially the data coming from the mortar between the walls, of course, there's no guarantee that it's exact.

Speaker 3 You know, we can't take them at face value because, of course, you've always got to think about sort of the old wood effect, you know, dating old parts of a tree instead of the younger bits of the tree and that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 But we're actually seeing enough data now to see that we do have this clear pattern that corresponds and coincides, or you know, correlates rather, with the building phases that we can see in the building archaeology.

Speaker 3 So we can actually see that we do have a long duration that these buildings were in use, a long use life, as we say.

Speaker 5 I mean, that is so extraordinary. I always associate mortar with much later constructions, for instance, we've done something.
Well, it's on the mud.

Speaker 3 It's a

Speaker 3 sticky mud mixture. Okay, well there we go.
Okay, thank you for highlighting that indeed.

Speaker 5 And also just to highlight quickly, you mentioned kind of local limestone used for the production.

Speaker 5 Is it all like all the stone artifacts that you have surviving, whether it's the walls or these T-pillars, which we'll explore a bit more in a second, is it all created from locally acquired stone?

Speaker 5 They're not doing huge distances to bring stone to the site of them.

Speaker 3 No, I think the local limestone, I mean, it's a limestone plateau where these buildings are actually constructed upon.

Speaker 3 And in actual fact, a few of the buildings of these special buildings are actually constructed directly on the limestone plateau. And the limestone plateau is the floor of the buildings.

Speaker 3 And that plateau has been painstakingly smoothed. So it's very possible that they're quarrying the teaplas from the spot where they were probably more or less erected and put upright.

Speaker 3 And then the floor was then smoothed. And, you know, Bob's your uncle, there's your floor.
And it's very high quality, obviously.

Speaker 3 Other buildings have plaster floors, which are imitating then these these probably these natural limestone floors so you know these guys knew what they were doing it was a it was a very advanced technology i mean they we can't actually imagine them as being often people say ah you know cavemen no you know they were like us they were physically like us cognitively cognitively perhaps a little you know different but if we'd grown up in that period then we'd have been just like them and if they'd grown up today been born today i'm sure they'd been sort of you know on their mobiles looking at instagram you know

Speaker 5 well let's explore these t pillars a bit more now Lee because they are absolutely extraordinary and I think the clues in the name in their kind of shape so kind of a long stem but the horizontal top part of a T is a bit smaller than you'd usually imagine for let's say a capital letter T today

Speaker 5 but with these big stone artifacts I guess these these kind of sculpture things how how big are we talking with them Lee are they life size or bigger than life size?

Speaker 3 Yeah, okay.

Speaker 3 I mean, if we're talking about the T pillars, I mean, the tools, as I said, are the central ones in these special buildings and they can be up to six meters five and a half meters six meters tall and those in the enclosing wall are about three meters three and a half meters so they're very they're larger than us you know larger than human they are that's why we sort of speak about monumentality but of course you know monumentality is also relative.

Speaker 3 I mean for us they're not really monumental for our understanding. You know if we stand in a city and there's a skyscraper that's like you know dozens of stories high that's more monumental for us.

Speaker 3 Like five six meters height is not really monumental, but for them, coming from living in an environment where they didn't have any of that sort of, you know, metropolis or, you know, what we have today, you know, five and a half meter, six metre-high monoliths would have been very much monumental.

Speaker 5 And the monoliths, so that's kind of like monolithos, so one stone, is that what you're doing?

Speaker 3 One piece, yeah. That's right.

Speaker 5 So is the evidence from Gebekli Tepe, is it the earliest datable evidence we know of for monumentality for the creation of monuments by humans?

Speaker 3 Like I said, it's a perspective thing.

Speaker 3 I mean, for for a hunter-gatherer, you know, even if they'd put up a thousand years before that, if they'd put up a three-metre-high wooden whatever, that would have been for them, I think, monumental.

Speaker 3 But yeah, I mean, strictly speaking, you know, for example, our UNESCO application, we're UNESCO sites since 2018. And of course, that's about monumentality.

Speaker 3 And for us, of course, the fact that it's carved, it's preserved, it's in stone, the fact that it's so durable, that for us is also monumental.

Speaker 3 And so for that reason, I would say it's one of the earliest monumental sites.

Speaker 3 Of course, there are now sister sites in the region which are equally as old or the same age so it's not just Gobecky Tepe but yeah so it's we we could say fair it would be fair enough to say it's one of the earliest monumental buildings monumental structures that we know so far Lee as an archaeologist who's done a lot of work with the media you know how much we want people to say it is the or not but also I appreciate how That's always a sucker in into something that you don't want to say.

Speaker 3 So fairly. Yeah, I don't like working with superlatives.
I just hate it.

Speaker 3 no exactly and you mentioned other sites in the region and i guess just a couple of names quickly before we explore more about the art itself are these names like kaharan tepe today is that one of the key sister sites yeah for example kalahantepe uh is one gobekatepepe is the other and there's another site called ayanla which hasn't been excavated yet but i think it's due to be excavated at some point pretty soon and those are like three we could call them sort of central places or central sites within this network of tepela sites down there and there are smaller sites as well and names like navali choli would be there Saiborj, Sefertepe.

Speaker 3 So there are numerous now that we have a dozen sites we now know down there in the region but these three sites, Ayanlag, Gavekitepe, Karaantepa, those are the big central sites.

Speaker 3 They're the bigger sites which you know have this very long duration from the beginning of the early Holocene, mid-10th millennium BC to the PPNB, end of the 9th millennium BC.

Speaker 5 Are they quite close together? So I mean potentially after more research suggesting whether there was interactions between the settlements?

Speaker 3 There were

Speaker 3 definitely interaction. I mean we have the symbolism, the, I mean, there are differences.

Speaker 3 There's lots of similarities, but there are sort of nuances and differences between, for example, in the symbolism, whereby at Gabekitape you have more animals depicted, at Karahantepa, there's more of a focus on the human form.

Speaker 3 So we're seeing what we're just starting to see that because the excavations at these other sites at Carahan, for example, only started back in 2019.

Speaker 3 So it's really that's just coming out now and we're seeing, you know, the first sort of making the first comparisons with our material.

Speaker 3 So that's something you know that we need to watch out for in the future. A network was there, economic, cultural, social.
It was definitely there.

Speaker 5 It's all very exciting stuff. I mean, you mentioned how there's a lot of depictions of animals in on Gebekle Tepe or at Kebekle Tepe.

Speaker 5 Is it on these T pillars that you see quite a lot of that animal art?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Of course, you do get smaller figurines and that sort of thing, but the majority that we know of is actually sort of applied or carved into or from the pillars.

Speaker 3 And so you have low reliefs which you know sort of a couple of centimeters sort of protruding from the pillar and then you have high reliefs with like the statues are actually carved from the pillar itself but still attached to the pillar it's a 3d yeah yeah 3d yeah i mean those are extra and what kind of animals are being shown funnily enough i mentioned earlier that the gazelle was the most important animal for the for the hunters for the meat supply but there's only one or two of those actually depicted on the on the art they prefer like you know the leopards the auroch the the the wild boar in fact just a couple of years ago we had a wonderful new discovery of a of a life-size wild boar carved from limestone in building d to set at the focal point of the building you know so it's these i'd say sort of dangerous animals also lots of insects snakes scorpions so they're sort of a bit sort of and and this has all been interpreted in various ways in the past but uh for example klaus schmidt the previous excavator associated it with like death myths and death rituals and others with fear so there's lots of different ways of doing this but of course you know the fact is that they're concentrating on these animals that had some sort of power or which were obviously important for their narratives where you know stories were attached to them and of course they're choosing these leopards are great you know and and wild boars i love them It's also interesting.

Speaker 5 So they're wild animals that have been depicted that they would have seen in the landscape.

Speaker 5 And I'm guessing then, are there no depictions of mythical creatures or something like that that might be attached to a particular story or something?

Speaker 3 No, I mean, I think the wild animals themselves are attached to stories because, of course, you know, they could say, okay, I just went out and I saw a wild boar and aurock.

Speaker 3 I'm going to sort of put it on my pillar now. But no, they come in different constellations.
And I think we're actually seeing here narratives, and that's the most important thing.

Speaker 3 And this is why, in my opinion, Gobeki Tepe is so important.

Speaker 3 It's not just the monumentality, but it's actually the fact that we're seeing here narratives, which are previously oral narratives, so told by storytellers around the campfire, which for for the first time are being petrified, they're being sort of carved into stone, and they're preserved for us today.

Speaker 3 And I think these narratives are very much telling us the traditions and the stories, the foundation myths of hunter-gatherer populations before, dating before the Neolithic, before this whole process took off.

Speaker 3 In that respect, they're so valuable. And I think

Speaker 3 that's the reason why the site really deserves its UNESCO.

Speaker 3 status because it does say you know it's so important for humanity the fact that we have these narratives still preserved do you think there's also the benefits of the the limestone material now correct me if i'm wrong i thought limestone is is quite soft so is it easier for them to use their stone tools to to carve out these sculptures and this art in that particular stone that's right i mean it's it's a soft material compared to other stone and there is harder stone i mean not far from the site we also have a source of basalt which is being used for grinding stones for the wild wheat for example but also for for minerals because of course what i didn't mention just now is the fact that we found colour remains of colour on the statue of the wild boar that I mentioned from two years ago.

Speaker 3 Its mouth was still red. So they were using sort of a red pigment, which I've probably been sort of grinding up and you know, and applying to the statues, probably also to the pillars.

Speaker 3 So it wouldn't have been as grey as we see it today on the pictures, on the photographs, but it would have been a much brighter affair with much more colour, especially red colour.

Speaker 5 And the red colour, do we think from ochre or something else or from ochre?

Speaker 3 Yeah, that sort of thing.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 3 And so you have those sculptures there shall we briefly talk about the human sculptures as well i know there are less than than of the animals that you highlighted but are they quite interesting to talk about too yeah i mean the thing is of course you say there are less human depictions but the tiplas themselves are depictions of a human form oh okay the actual shaft of the pillar is the body and the t at the top is in the head so uh we know that because we have in building d the two central pillars in the in that centre of that building they have actually carved arms in low relief they have a belt they have a loincloth, all carved in low relief, they have necklaces, but the face isn't depicted.

Speaker 3 They didn't want to depict the face, but they didn't need to depict the face. They chose not to.
But they're very clearly, the T form is a depiction of the human form, albeit very sort of abstract.

Speaker 3 On the other hand, we do have, we know they could carve faces because we have small figurines and larger statues, fragments that show the human form.

Speaker 3 It's quite interesting. The faces are sometimes, they remind me of the old old Norman helmets, you know, 1066 and all that.
They've got this sort of nose piece

Speaker 3 and the eyebrows are very, very clearly formed.

Speaker 3 And then we have also, the heads are sometimes found quite often separate from the bodies, but I think that's because of the weak sort of, the neck is always a weak part of the statue and they're probably broke.

Speaker 3 It could be that they broke them before deposition as part of a ritual. That's also possible.
But the bodies, in fact, they also have, you know, they're shown with arms in different sort of gestures.

Speaker 3 and on a lot of occasions especially on the larger statues we see them that the hands actually framing the genitals and so phallae the phallus is very important to this community there are lots of of penises uh at gobekli tepe

Speaker 5 what does gobekli tepe and pompei have in common there you go one something there you go um it's very interesting so kind of to wrap up this part about those special buildings that you've highlighted there lee and i'm glad we covered first because there's such that that thing everyone thinks about if we don't use the label temple but we keep that kind of extraordinary special label there too, could we imagine them always being kind of like multi-purpose centers of these communities, places where people could gather, tell stories, or maybe kind of food storage or something like that?

Speaker 5 Or should we just not be imagining them as serving one purpose, but probably had lots of different purposes for these people?

Speaker 3 Yeah, exactly that. Lots of different purposes.
I mean, you mentioned all of those that we just mentioned, but

Speaker 3 also like you've got to remember these people are going for a very important, crucial transition at this time.

Speaker 3 okay I mean when you're a hunter-gatherer you're more mobile your groups are smaller and when you start settling down your group size increases so all of a sudden you know you're having more children the groups growing in size you have more demands on the resources in the landscape you have perhaps increasing territoriality because of the sedentism because of the growing population whose hunting ground is that does it belong to this site or that site you have like first conflicts coming up perhaps because of surplus accumulation people are sort of you know accumulating wealth or at least materials and of course that leads to conflict as it always does and so you have these buildings are perhaps places of conflict mitigation where people are coming together to mitigate those those problems i mean we have no evidence for the conflict at this time no evidence for warfare strangely enough and so perhaps that's due to these wonderful buildings bringing people together and mitigating those conflict situations just one interpretation if you're a pacifist these buildings they're multifunctional and for that reason we shouldn't actually sort of you know narrow it down just to this sort of one function by using the word or the term temple.

Speaker 5 But I mean, you know, packed with this incredible art.

Speaker 5 And I said, thinking about it with the colour as well, as you highlighted there, Lee, for someone who was walking in and to see all this imagery on the walls and this structure, it really was a statement.

Speaker 5 And I'm really glad we could cover all of that in detail.

Speaker 5 I must also, though, ask, keeping on maybe a ritual, but I guess death and burial, which kind of links us away, but takes us away from those main buildings.

Speaker 5 Do we know anything about burials at Gebekle Tepe or how they treated their dead away from those great buildings?

Speaker 3 I mean, we always thought that burials would be in the special buildings, you know, at least of some sort of important individuals, but because, of course, you know, with the changes taking place in this sort of population at that time, you know, the increasing number of people, you'd expect some sort of incipient hierarchization because, of course, you know, these societies or hunter-gatherer societies are well known to be sort of quite egalitarian, although egalitarian doesn't really exist, you know, strictly speaking.

Speaker 3 But we haven't found any burials in the special building so far. I say so far, you know, there's always, you know, always happen.

Speaker 3 What we do have is quite characteristic for the region itself and for the time, so for the pre-potreneolithic period in the eastern parts of the Mediterranean, which is sub-floor burial.

Speaker 3 So it was, we have two burials so far at Gebekitepe, and all of them from domestic contexts, because of course that's something also that's quite important for Gebekitepe, that we've now realized it's not just a ritual site, because there was like discussions previously, oh, it's just, you know, people coming coming there regular part-times in the year to celebrate and to build these temples but of course now we know it's a settlement we have the domestic context we have the houses and beneath the house floors you frequently get burials in this period so the when when grandma died you actually went down into your cellar or to the ground floor of your building opened up a hole and bunged her in

Speaker 3 covered her up so really the living and the dead were very in close proximity they weren't separating them by putting them to a a separate burial ground away from the site, but they were keeping them close to them.

Speaker 3 So you get a lot of burials beneath the floors of the buildings, at the thresholds of the buildings, and close within that sort of activity zones of the domestic areas.

Speaker 3 And we have two such burials at Gebeki Tepe. We have one which is, I think, a teenager in her young, early 20s, a female individual in a hocker position, so sort of crouched and laying as if sleeping.

Speaker 3 And one in another domestic building where we have, I think, three or four individuals possibly, but not well preserved because actually in prehistory they'd gone in and disturbed the burial because that's something that they also did.

Speaker 3 With particular individuals, we don't know what the criteria were, but they went back to the burial after a little while and they exhumed the skull or parts of the body.

Speaker 3 We also have with regard to the skull and the so-called skull cult at Gobeki Tepe, which is also quite well known from the East Mediterranean at this time.

Speaker 3 The skulls were exhumed and replot or plastered in the shape with the features.

Speaker 3 We don't have any plastered skulls at Kebeki Temple, but we do have fragments of skull with sort of carving and grooves and scratch marks.

Speaker 3 So actually they didn't wait too long for the skin and the hair to sort of decay.

Speaker 3 They went in quite quickly afterwards, got out the skull, scraped it clean, and then put some grooves in to hold like a cord and decorated them.

Speaker 3 And there are also sort of drill holes in them that they're perhaps using to suspend them and to hang them.

Speaker 3 You see it sometimes in ethnographical examples that they have mummies of dead people that they bring out at certain times of the year for certain festivals. That could be similar here.

Speaker 3 They could have like the skulls coming out at certain times of the year being hung up in their special building. I mean the ancestors are so important.

Speaker 3 They didn't have history books or books to hold onto that knowledge and they probably knew that the knowledge was in the brain, in the skull. That was the seat of the spirit.

Speaker 3 And of course, the ancestors were the all-knowing.

Speaker 3 And they did that, I think, to celebrate the ancestors. So ancestor veneration, animism was at the center of the rituals and the belief systems at this time.

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Speaker 5 I was thinking during your explanation there, Lee, I know it's several thousand years later, but having done stuff in the past on Stone Age Orkney and you see some of the great tombs that they ultimately build for like the richest in society, but with a clear idea of building something massive, potentially, to show off like the wealth or the status of that family and everyone's involved in the building of it, it's fascinating

Speaker 5 if there's no similar kind of big burial mounds from Gabekli Tepir in that society. You'd have thought that might be a human nature thing that

Speaker 5 someone who we don't know about the society at all, if they saw themselves as more important, would ultimately try and get a big burial for themselves.

Speaker 3 Yeah, it's funny you say that because there are a couple of sites. I mean, excavated quite a few years ago now at Chaiunio.

Speaker 3 I mentioned it earlier, it's one of the earliest sites that was discovered in the 1960s, and actually, excavation started shortly after the survey work.

Speaker 3 And that's located further to the east of Gabekitepe in the Diyarbaka region.

Speaker 3 And there they found the so-called skull building, and they have actually a building, a ritual structure, they say, and within that, there was a room full of human skulls.

Speaker 3 We don't know who those individuals were, but interestingly, just recently in the frame of the new investigations in the Orpha region at a site called Sephotepe, there was also a small room in a building discovered, which was also, which also contained numerous skulls.

Speaker 3 So it does appear that the burial traditions were varied, perhaps depending on who you were, your status, your age, your place in society.

Speaker 3 As I say, you mean there was a skull card, but also this, or there was the inhumations, but also this sort of this skull collection point, as it were, in some of the buildings.

Speaker 5 Skull collection point?

Speaker 3 Well, there you go. Sorry, it's a bit of a strange term to use.

Speaker 3 It's not very archaeological of me, yeah.

Speaker 5 Dara, this is the ancients. We cover all different terms of language for this, which is great.
But you did mention in passing there, so kind of residential structures.

Speaker 5 So do we have evidence of residential buildings, of houses, of dwellings at Gebeklitepe? And if so, what do they look like?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, as I said, we now know that the site was not a purely ritual site as previously sort of posited, but in fact, it was a settlement from very from the offset.

Speaker 3 So in fact, we've got a couple of new I say new back in 2017 18 we had a new two new canopies permanent canopies constructed over the site to protect the archaeology from the elements because of course the weather down there is pretty harsh especially in the summer it's very hot and the sun etc but to construct these canopies we had to sort of remove sondages where the legs of these things are going to be anchored into the plateau.

Speaker 3 So we had to go through all the archaeology, I couldn't drill through the archaeology, we had to remove it first.

Speaker 3 So we went through in little sondages in several places, right down to the base of the mound, and found sort of, we had little keyholes into the earliest settlement phases.

Speaker 3 Of course, at the bottom of the mound, that's the oldest sort of accumulations. And the higher you get, the younger it gets.

Speaker 3 So, and we actually found evidence of domesticated structure, or domestic structures, rather, dwellings in these oldest layers, which are very small, sort of round structures.

Speaker 3 They had no T pillars, but they were also multi-phase, had several floors used.

Speaker 3 You know, you could see the walking horizons in there, activity zones with hearths and evidence of people chipping and doing napping and producing beads from stone and animal or bird bones, that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 So

Speaker 5 the necklace things that you're talking about earlier, the necklaces, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 So very, very domestic. And that increases over time.
And in fact, by the height of the site in the mid-9th millennium BC, you've got rectangular structures, domestic structures.

Speaker 3 So in fact, it's quite interesting because over the course of time, that's quite an important thing in the PPNA in this sort of period from 9600 to 8700 buildings whether domestic or special were usually round oval and then at the onset of the PPNB about 8700 BC they invent or the corner appears and they start building rectangular buildings.

Speaker 3 Of course they don't actually stop building round or oval but the rectangular comes in and it sort of increases over time as well.

Speaker 3 That's one way of data, what are the differences between the PPNA and the PPNB, the shape of the buildings.

Speaker 3 so yeah i mean

Speaker 3 at the at the time of the ppnb i think we were looking at a very much a flourishing settlement a very much a village or perhaps even bigger in fact you know we have to be very careful because we can't actually date this very well i mean we don't know whether the site's very big and the different areas are not connected so we can't actually compare the stratigraphy and we don't have radiocarbon dates enough with high resolution high resolution enough to say okay they're contemporaneous so it could well be they're moving around the actual site itself.

Speaker 3 Perhaps they sort of, first of all, we're in the northwestern part of the site, it all gets a bit sort of you know nasty and dirty, they've been there too long, throwing out their rubbish, that sort of thing.

Speaker 3 They move to the eastern side, they do that for a decade or so, oh, it's getting a bit nasty, let's go, you know, or they split into two groups, and you know, that's the way this mound then develops over the

Speaker 3 1500 years of occupation of the site. So the dating is still, you know, a bit difficult.

Speaker 3 But if the site, the entire nine, nine and a half hectare site was all being used or, you know, was settled at the same time in the in the PPNB, then we're looking at a major settlement with, you know, perhaps even a couple of hundred or more people.

Speaker 3 Wow.

Speaker 5 I mean, I'm, you mentioned hardens there, so I'm guessing those hards area where they were presumably cooking and having the fireplaces, but also you mentioned rubbish dumps as well.

Speaker 5 Are these key areas in the settlement for learning more about the people themselves and how they lived, what foods they ate alongside the gazelle that you've mentioned earlier?

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, the rubbish dumps. Well, say the rubbish pits are very much important for us.
And archaeologists dream. Yeah, we just want everyone's rubbish.

Speaker 3 But of course, you know, we get a good insight into the animals being hunted. Like I said, a gazelle was very important.
We have

Speaker 3 the horn cores and we can see actually which parts of the animal are being transported to the site from the hunting grounds.

Speaker 3 In fact, interestingly, we have hunting traps in the vicinity of Gobeki Tepe, the so-called kites or desert kites, and known from Jordan, for example.

Speaker 3 We have them also in Gebekitepe in the Tash Tepela region of Shanlu'ufa.

Speaker 3 So actually we're looking at sort of organized hunting, industrial hunting in a way, in that they were driving these animals or these herds of animals into corrals and then sort of, you know, hunting large numbers of the animals at the same time.

Speaker 3 You know, that's the only way of then actually sort of feeding your larger population, perhaps, at that time. You know, and water, water resources, I'm drifting off tangents now.

Speaker 3 That's okay, that's okay. Of course, you know, water supply was crucial.
I mean, it was always thought, you know, Quebec Teta had no water supply.

Speaker 3 People were walking to a water source, perhaps, you know, kilometers away from the site and coming back.

Speaker 3 And, you know, but we don't know whether there was, you know, perhaps there was a spring at the site that's no longer active. But in the meantime, we do have very good evidence for cisterns.

Speaker 3 And they're actually, if you remember, or as I said, you know, the climate conditions, they were improving after the last ice age at the time of occupation. And rainfall was even greater than today.

Speaker 3 And perhaps we're even looking at summer rainfall as well and they were harvesting that rainwater in large cisterns and you know collecting it via channels into these large pits and that being used at the site to to to to as a source of water for

Speaker 5 wow i mean you read my mind i was going to ask about cisterns and the kind of the channeling of water so they had that early technology even back then to funnel water into as you say this area where the natural water resources are quite far away and to me personally someone who was always fascinated in whether it be sewers or kind of aqueducts or water management, the fact that they had cisterns there some 10,000 years ago, I mean, that is an astonishing piece of archaeology that is sometimes overlooked compared to like those big special buildings and so on, Lee.

Speaker 3 Yeah, that's right. I mean, we haven't got the latrines yet.
I'd like to find a way to get away from that. Let's go find the toilets, okay?

Speaker 3 I haven't got one of those yet, but we're still looking for one of those.

Speaker 5 These lithics that you mentioned earlier, are these just kind of like scraping tools or the kinds of things that would have been used for either kind of butchering meat or creating clothing or stuff like that, would they have been the tools that they would have used?

Speaker 3 Yeah, we've got the whole repertoire, you know, very characteristic of a settlement, in fact.

Speaker 3 I mean, that's also a very good indication that it was a settlement and not just a ritual focal point, because, of course, the amount of lithics coming from Gabeki Tepe, I mean, it's just enormous.

Speaker 3 We have boxes and boxes and boxes full at the museum in the excavation house, and every year it increases.

Speaker 3 And of course, you know, this is made from local material, so the flint is also quite local, and we don't quite know exactly where the sources were, but there were sources nearby we know that and you know the assemblage you know everything from arrowheads to scrapers to drills you know that sort of thing you know it's all there and for that reason we know it was a you know a settlement scenario apart from that of course you know for the carving of the teepellers we don't actually have a you know a workshop where we can actually say it was we have negatives in the plateau where these large blocks were taken from but we don't have any tools that have been sort of left lying around there we haven't actually found anything like that but of course there are are very chunky bits of stuff that were obviously being used for for bashing that they could have been used for that function as well it's the kind of hammer stones yeah yeah yeah i'm not being my terminology is very is lacking at the moment um i'm just trying to make it more sort of you know visual for you but um

Speaker 3 yeah so that was going on yeah and of course i mentioned the basalt which was not far away used for the grinding tools And of course, you had like imports of obsidian, very small amounts of obsidian coming in,

Speaker 3 less than 1%,

Speaker 3 and that's coming from different sources from Eastern Anatolia.

Speaker 3 So that also testifies some sort of down-the-line sort of contact with groups living further to the north in the more mountainous regions.

Speaker 5 I mean, Lee, you've painted a wonderful picture of this society, these people are living some 10,000 years ago. And it's an astonishing story, that of Gobeklitepe.

Speaker 5 And it sounds like there's going to be even more coming out of the ground very, very, very shortly.

Speaker 5 But you also painted the picture how over time the site evolves and it seems to develop into a very kind of prosperous and bigger settlement.

Speaker 5 So the big question is, what else really happens to Gobeklitepe? Why, I mean, does it all fall off a cliff? What do we know?

Speaker 3 Yeah.

Speaker 3 We have very little evidence for what was going on at Kobekitepe after around, I don't know, the end of the 9th millennium BC, so 8000 BC, it sort of all starts to sort of disappear.

Speaker 3 And of course, that's a time that we get more and more sites with domesticated species of animals, you know, goats, sheep, that sort of thing. And your crops.
And of course

Speaker 3 it's going from wild wheat to domesticated wheat domestic wheat that's right so i i think that plays a part the fact that people are now turning away from these hunter-gatherer traditions to this more farming sort of these farming traditions in with regard to their subsistence and of course the changes in subsistence go hand in hand with changes in society perhaps changes in belief systems because of course after kuebeki tepe these big enclosures or these big special buildings they also disappear they don't We don't have anything sort of comparable until like the late Calcolitic, the Bronze Age, you know, in

Speaker 3 prehistory. So that's quite remarkable.
I think the reason is that it was actually that the farming, of course,

Speaker 3 the location of Gebekitepe at the moment, or even then at the time, is very hilly, very rocky, and it's not very good for farming.

Speaker 3 And of course, you go down a few kilometers into the plain, into the Haram Plain to the south, the conditions are a lot better.

Speaker 3 You can have your fields, you can have your crops growing, you can have your animals and everything. That's one reason.

Speaker 3 I think also that the, as I say, the belief systems and the social structures change as well along with that.

Speaker 3 And I think, you know, recently I've proposed that there was, we don't have any good evidence for sort of social hierarchies or the elites at this time

Speaker 3 in the pre-potter Neolithic. And I think it was very much to do with the fact that they didn't really exist.
So we're looking at sort of,

Speaker 3 you know, inspired individuals, charismatic individuals, which were sort of playing that role, perhaps gifted storytellers or, I don't know, shamans, that sort of thing, taking on that role.

Speaker 3 And of course, they were no longer needed. It changed.
People wanted to came away from that.

Speaker 3 And of course, when subsistence changed, belief system changed, social structures changed, the site became, you know, it was no longer needed in that respect.

Speaker 5 Well, Lee, this has been a fascinating chat. We've explored all these different parts of the amazing archaeological story of Gobekli Tepe.

Speaker 5 And it sounds like there's still so much more archaeology to uncover, but also then to record and preserve for many years and decades ahead.

Speaker 3 Oh we've got a lot of work left to do. I mean the excavations you know we've been criticized for saying that it's going to take generations of archaeologists to actually complete work at Kobekli Tepe.

Speaker 3 In fact there's no need to actually excavate the whole site. It's always like we have to save something for the next generations coming along of archaeologists with better methodologies.

Speaker 3 So it's really a question of preserving what we're excavating, what we have excavated previously, and making that really sort of visible and available to the public and anyone interested.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, that's our task at hand, and it's going to keep us busy at least till the end of my working life. I've got quite a few years left yet.

Speaker 5 Well, you've certainly completed part of that task by speaking to the ancients today, and we really appreciate your time.

Speaker 5 Lee, it just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today.

Speaker 3 Well, thanks again for having me, Tristan. It's been great fun.

Speaker 5 Well, there you go. There was Dr.
Lee Clare giving you an awesome overview of the archaeology so far uncovered at Kebekli Tepe and why this site is so interesting, so incredible.

Speaker 5 Really interesting to see what will be unearthed there in the years ahead. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Ancients.
Please follow the show on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 5 It really helps us and you'll be doing us a big favor. If you want more ancient history videos and clips, then be sure to follow me as well on Instagram at ancients Tristan.

Speaker 5 Don't forget that you can also listen to the ancients and all of History Hits podcasts at free and watch hundreds of TV documentaries when you subscribe at historyhit.com slash subscribe.

Speaker 3 Now that's enough from me and I'll see you in the next episode.

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