Kara Swisher on Musk & the “Megalomaniacs” in Charge

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I think intuitively, he's got a lizard mentality, right?

He's got that lizard brain, so he kind of sees where the power is.

In scamming, he is Marco Corleone, and in governing, he's Fredo.

Yeah.

Which

I have Michael Corleone in government.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Best People with Nicole Wallace.

If you could clone one person for this moment in American political life, you would clone Kara Swisher.

She's in that much demand.

She knows all of the people pulling all of the levers in tech and business and politics and government.

She knows them all and it's on a first-name basis with most of them.

She's also incredibly generous with first-time podcasters like yours truly.

So without any further ado, this is the Best People with Nicole Wallace, and this is Kara Swisher.

So you're at the Best People Podcast.

The Best People Podcast is our new venture.

Are they the best people?

Well, you are.

Okay, all right.

And everyone has to be the best that we could find to talk to us about something.

Okay.

So you actually are one of the best people under both like the actual best people, but also the best person to talk to about how to pot.

I mean, right?

All right.

And so I'm going to give you a lesson.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're all doing it.

It's crazy.

Everyone's doing it, but no one's been doing this as well or as long as you.

I have been having a long time.

And that's sort of the theme that runs through everything that you do and everything that you look at.

So you're saying I'm old.

No, I'm saying you see around corners.

And I wonder.

I mean, I think a lot of people that do that have like an intuitive sense.

I did.

Yeah.

And I wonder if that's what you think explains.

I'll tell you where I got the idea from, from Steve Jobs, because they, of course, started the iPod, right?

And created that whole genre of listening and having the intimate relationship with people.

And it started with music, but we did an interview, one of the last interviews he did, where he talked about podcasting and he had sort of created.

the genre in many ways.

And he said it's the iPod and broadcasting, podcasting, right?

And I was sort of like, huh, that's really interesting.

It got me interested because I thought there is an intimate relationship I had with my phone and that people were doing listening in some fashion.

And I was like, oh, advertising is over on the internet.

I think this podcasting is going to be a big deal.

The concept was was: I was doing the conference, the live conference where we do Steve Jobs and Bill Gates, and that was about 16 interviews a year.

But there were hundreds of interesting people in tech and media that

you didn't know about.

And so it was taking the idea of podcasting and the idea of the conference and bringing them together where you could meet all these people in a much more intimate and substantive setting.

And so what I did was I started bringing in people to do it.

And it was really fun for me.

And one of the things that I knew it was going to to be a success was i had a lot of fans i always knew my fans it was like white guy of a certain age occasionally an indian guy an asian guy but always the same who's a geek oh it's kara swisher i was riding in the muni in san francisco and four young african-american women came up to me and they're like kara we love you and i was like is this a did someone playing a joke like it was not my demo really and they say we love this we love that and they were all they're only talking about the podcast which was interesting.

And I said, are you in tech?

And they said, no, we're entrepreneurs, though.

And we love when you stick it to that guy.

And we love when you stick it to that guy.

And we learned a lesson from that lady and stuff like that.

And they all wanted a selfie.

And they all felt like they knew me because I talked about myself on the show, too.

And I was like, oh, oh, this is different.

Cause it was, they felt like they had a relationship with me in a way that

even though I was well known as a reporter and did the big events that we did, not the same.

And that moment with those women taking selfie with me was a big, it was a big revelation.

And so I kept leaning into it.

I love when anyone has that reaction to anything that we do.

I love, someone came up to me yesterday.

I was walking home with my daughter and I hugged her.

And I think she was just like, I can't believe you're hugging me.

But I felt so,

there's something about like someone that feels right.

Or like people that are in the community, people that make time to listen to you.

And I feel this, and I don't know if it's because I think this whole

thing is such a sort of like a winning lottery ticket, right?

That I'm doing this thing that I care a lot about.

I mean, and I, for the most part, cover Trump and talk about democracy.

And there's.

I hadn't noticed that.

But I think it's amazing that there are people that'll sit with, I mean, podcasts is long.

My show is long.

And what do you, what do you think it is?

Well, podcasts you'll find different because it's a much more intimate setting, even more so.

Cause in the desk, you're sitting there and you're kind of Nicole at the desk.

You're the lights and you're in the show.

Yeah, but you're running the show.

And it's vaguely airless, too.

It does.

Totally.

It's climate control.

With podcasts, it's a much more intimate situation.

And what's interesting is the different kinds of people that come up to you.

I love the, they're fans.

They are actual fans, which is a very different relationship than an audience or a viewer or a listener or a reader.

And so what's really interesting is I had one older woman come up to me and she sat right down next, I knew it was a podcast fan and said, I just want to tell you, you're my friend, but I'm not yours.

And I was like, I get it.

And she goes, you're my friend.

Thank you.

And I said, no problem.

And she walked away.

Then I had, I was walking in New York and this big Lincoln navigator made a.

360, I mean, 180 on the street.

And I thought, oh, finally, Elon Musk is going to kill me.

This is it.

This is the moment where I'm taking.

Because that's how he, right?

Where the fuck is Lime Neeson to get me back?

Like, I'm like, notice everything.

Do the thing.

I was like, notice where it's going so I can tell Leem Neeson to save me.

So guy jumps out, big guy, and he goes, Garzwizzer.

And I'm like, oh, God, this sucks.

This is going to suck.

Cause he's going to insult me or something like that.

And he's like, I love you and Scott.

Scott's always wrong.

I love you.

And I was like.

Okay.

And he goes, did I scare you?

I said, you terrified me.

And he wanted to, he just wanted to have a connection.

Yeah.

And so

that's what's great about it, that you get all these different people and they have an opinion about you because I think you are intimate with them in a way.

And that's what you have to lean into.

You have to tell about yourself.

You have to explain your life.

And if you're not genuine, they get it right away.

I think that sort of bullshit meter is the flip side of everything that everybody complains about.

I always argue with the idea that people don't like media.

I think they don't like media.

They don't feel that they're.

that they can understand.

And so I always think they don't like this media.

They like that media.

And you have to sort of explore what they're getting from the Manosphere blogs, right?

Or Manosphere podcasts, for example.

There's a certain camaraderie.

There's a tribe.

There's a, and I don't mean tribe in a negative way because it can be used in a negative way.

They feel like they're part of something and they're part of a narrative and story.

And they feel like you're a real person.

And I think that changes even if they, like, I have a lot of people who don't agree with me, but they still want to listen and argue.

And that's why we have a lot of people we don't agree with on the show.

That's why Scott and I on Pivot don't agree with each other a lot.

And we hash it out in a civil way.

And I think it gives, like recently, it's interesting, we have a lot of people come up to us saying, thank you.

You make me feel better.

And it's a really interesting thing because a lot of products don't make you feel better, especially, including, by the way, news.

News doesn't make you feel better anymore.

And it's not meant to.

assuage you.

You're supposed to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted, but it shouldn't make you feel hopeless and that there isn't something to do.

And for some reason, with a podcast, you have more options for the listener.

It's not dire.

It's like, let's get to a place where we can solve a problem.

Do you think that is a product of the moment in our politics?

Or do you think it is sort of a post-COVID hunger for connection?

Well, COVID was important.

We got huge in COVID.

That was one thing because people were home and they felt alone and isolated.

And when you, you know, there is this vision of radio as this.

this noise coming out of nowhere.

And then you're sitting there in a lonely place and you hear music or you hear a voice or a DJ.

So America is very attuned to that, right?

That idea of the radio.

And it's got, it's so iconic in American culture.

One of the things that you also get to do is you get to be substantive, right?

Whether it's Charlemagne the God, who I think is fantastic, whether I think Theo Vaughan is interesting.

Like you get to have real conversations that don't feel like, you know, cable, which you're on, which is next, next, next.

Now we have the thought of the moment.

And I do think that people like that too, but they prefer to have a real conversation.

So it feels more like a kitchen table.

It feels more like a family dinner.

It feels more like that.

Like life.

Like life.

Yes, exactly.

You like it a lot.

You'll find it's the one thing you look forward to versus your job, which is interesting.

I mean, I love my job too, but I know what you're saying about.

it feeling more like the conversations you're having in your real life.

Yes, exactly.

They're not encrypted, they're not on the teleprompter.

They're the conversations you have on the sidelines at a baseball game or a drop-off.

It's an ongoing conversation,

especially like on Pivot, where Scott and I talk about what we've done and what we're doing and where we're going.

People are always inquiring, how'd that trip go?

I was in,

where was I somewhere?

Oh, you said you'd be here and here you are.

You know what I mean?

Well, I'm like, well, yeah, I'm telling the truth of where I am.

That's all we've got.

And so that's what's interesting is people do follow.

And again,

people are used to the genre of a sitcom or a TV show.

They're following your story and stories are what people like.

I think it's some of the sort of the elites miss the allure of The Apprentice.

I watched every episode.

Well, and there's something, I think it had, it checked all the boxes, right?

There was a reality TV aspect to it, which is so attractive to so many people.

I watched American Television for years.

I watched So You Think You Can Dance.

I mean, there's something about reality TV

where you don't know what's going to happen.

And then there was this aspirational American story about success and the apprentice.

But I feel like it's a big piece of the Trump story that everyone that doesn't consume reality TV or that didn't watch The Apprentice is still blind to.

Well, it's interesting.

I watched all the, I love The Apprentice.

I thought it was really, I mean, I understood it was like, look, my grandfather did wrestling, was a wrestling promoter too.

So that whole thing I loved, the whole fake story and everything else.

And I got the appeal of it and how fun it was, you know, fake gladiatorial kind of stuff.

And

when I saw The Apprentice, it was that.

It was that.

That's what it was, essentially.

And I kind of saw him as an

I hate to use the word appealing with him, but it was appealing.

He was

self-deprecating.

Not just his base.

He was self-deprecating.

It was funny.

It was ridiculous.

Everything was ridiculous and silly.

And the, the, you know, whatever, like, you make a lemonade stand and sell this many on Park Avenue or whatever, so you can get away with this.

And so it had kind of a hijinks, a moment to it.

And then there was the whole scene of firing, right?

Which I thought was fascinating.

Like it's not real, but it was fascinating.

And I watched every episode to the bitter fucking end.

That too, by the way.

And it got bad.

I couldn't, I knew when it turned.

I'm like, oh, now it's not good.

Like, that's bad.

And when he was running, I was at a party in Washington.

It was all these Washington reporters and they were all making fun of him.

And I had just done an interview with Ariana Huffington and she put him in the entertainment section when he ran.

And I disagreed with her.

I'm like, oh, no, he's very appealing.

Like, there's something really.

you know, because, you know, Barack Obama was the first celebrity president in law, even though he wasn't a celebrity.

He was a celebrity president.

He's famous.

Yeah, right.

In culture and stuff like that.

And Bill Clinton, to an extent, was that.

But Barack Obama really did.

But then we moved and created a celebrity as president, right?

So it made sense that it would go there with someone like this guy.

And I was there and they were like making fun of him.

And I said,

have you watched The Apprentice?

And they're like, no, how ridiculous.

I'm like, no, no, no.

He's a, he's a poor person's version of a rich person.

Not just a poor person.

It's an aspirational person's version.

I was like, he's really appealing.

I'm a lesbian from San Francisco and I like him.

I'm not going to vote for him because he seems horrible with his racist bullshit.

But man, do I find him appealing?

And that's troubling to me because I can see how he would appeal to everyone else.

And he also was a liar.

He told stories.

Like he was like a constant liar the way we that we have in our history, P.T.

Barnum, Pewee Long.

Those people appeal to us, these kind of tale tellers.

And I just thought he was perfect.

And he is actually the perfect person for the internet age.

And that's why, that's why I was paying attention because he really broke through.

Once he broke through on Twitter, I was like, oh, this guy's going to win.

Why did he break through on Twitter?

Because he was his own self.

He was his genuine fake self, right?

I had that experience with someone.

I had interviewed Kim Kardashian and everyone was, why are you interviewing her?

I was like, because she's breaking through on the digital platform, because whatever you think of her, she's her.

genuine version of whatever she's selling, right?

Kind of thing.

But he was talking directly to people.

He was talking in plain plain English.

You know, he was talking, like saying crazy stuff.

He was doing it for reaction.

He understood it intuitively, the sort of shock value.

And I found him to be the first, you know, first Twitter president.

And the other person who was very good at it was AOC, opposite, but similar.

I did a column in the New York Times comparing them.

And I was like, they're exactly the same character in terms of using these mediums.

And so he understood he could then bypass the media and get his own messages out and keep everyone in a constant state of snackable.

And that's the term they use.

It was actually brilliant.

It was brilliant what he did there.

How does he do it for the comeback in this election?

How did he do it?

Yeah.

I mean, how is he still outpacing all the competition in the Republican Party and on the Democratic side in year nine?

Because they're claudish, like, right?

They're clawish.

I think he's still actually very good at it.

It's getting, getting tired, like the last couple seasons of The Apprentice.

You're like, oh, this guy, this fucking guy again.

Like, I know that trick.

I know that.

Like, so he doesn't have a lot of new stuff.

It sort of was like the way he did his, did the rallies, right?

Which everyone made fun of.

I'm like, that's brilliant.

The rallies are brilliant because you've got lots of digital moments that you could pull out.

And he says outrageous things.

And then, you know, especially the media would be like, he'd say something outrageous.

And then the media would be like, can you believe that?

I'm like, yes, I can believe it because he did it last week.

And so I think it kept him in the conversation that you cannot look away from him.

And one of the things that he is, is he's, he's, and I'm using this term correctly, he's promiscuous.

He's like so promiscuous online.

And that is really a key.

And he makes mistakes and he's promiscuous and he keeps at it.

And you have to do that in today's media environment because there's no such thing as too much.

There's no such, because it's a yawning maw of information that just doesn't end like a flood.

And if you're not constantly.

Just like creators are like that too.

They have to constantly be making.

And he's constantly making, even if it, it has a deleterious effect on our country.

It It doesn't matter.

You know, I was talking to, I thought Vice President Harris did a great job online, but she was a little bit away, right?

And one of the things I talked to her after the election, and I said, you got to, like, where are you hiding?

You got to come back out.

And she essentially said, they're sick of me.

I'm like, no, there's no such thing as sick of you anymore.

Like, you need to get out there and make mistakes and make yourself a nuisance.

And that's what Trump does really well.

He's a nuisance, except that he's, you like to look at him.

What is the

role of sort of the way we consume politicians on social media, on cable, on podcasts,

and the kind of choices we're making?

I mean, we.

It's not great.

It's like Twinkies, right?

That's the problem.

And although some of them are really good, you can have like, for example, any news event that happens, some of the funny stuff is wonderful, like really wonderful and creative.

I do think there's so much negative about it.

And I talk about this a lot, but there is so much also wonderful about it in some ways, sort of the expression.

It's humanity talking to itself in a way that never and sometimes it's really vile which is what humanity is and sometimes it's absolutely delightful and one of the things scott and i were talking about last night actually we were out and i was like i watch social media for pleasure like he watches certain things like he's always putting up these lovely videos of kids or whatever something something like there's always dogs involved in something and he puts them he says this gives me peace and i said why are you writing it that way and he said because i feel better after watching that not when I'm watching the Trump stuff I feel worse so I have to stop doing that but when I start watching these adorable videos of a dad with his kid or whatever something

he feels better so that's a great reflection of humanity like years ago when I was at Google one of the things they did when you walked into the the later not when I was in the garage but later they had you were in the garage oh yeah I went to their garage when they were founded Where was that?

It was in Palo Alto, in Susan Wojewski's house in her garage.

They rented it from him, and that's where I met them.

When you walked in there, there was a scroll that went by of all the words that were people were searching at that moment.

Right.

And it would go by like whatever it would go by.

Often it was news things, often it was big things, but every now and then you'd see like horses, the things people would search, the little, the prompts they would put in, which was like, you know, horses, snow.

space.

And you're like, what does that person want?

What are they searching for?

Right.

And I would sit there just riveted.

Like, what are they searching for?

And then I sort of started to realize this was the expression of humanity.

Like you could see into the thought bubble.

What are the questions people want to know?

And it was like humanity, this is the brain of humanity and what it's asking for.

So what is the question you're asking?

is so important to understand where you're going, right?

And so that's what I love about it.

Is that still what's happening or is it being pushed the other direction?

Well, absolutely.

It's being used for both a tool and a weapon.

And so one of the things that when I was mentioning it to Google people, they're like, you know, we take the porn and dirty stuff and nasty stuff out on that scroll because there's plenty of that because people are asking terrible questions.

Right.

And it's going to get even worse in AI.

We can talk about that in a minute, but because people, the prompt is everything.

Like that Google box was the question.

You don't exist if you're not asking questions.

And so that box was so brilliant in its config, so simple in the idea.

What's your, what do you want?

What is it what you want?

And now AI, the prompt is critical to what's going forward.

What's your, the word prompt is so important right now.

And so I think it can go either tool or a weapon.

It can be delightful.

Show me bears getting into houses.

Show me ASMR, like cutting sand.

I like it.

It calms me down.

Or it could be, how do I kill my husband?

How do I build a bomb?

How do I, right?

And so it can go either way because the algorithm doesn't care.

The algorithm has no soul.

It has no ability to determine.

And that's what's the scary part because whatever you put into it is what you're going to get out of it.

People used to ask me, Oh, how did Trump take over the Republican Party?

And I said, You know, he's like Julia Roberts' character, I'm pretty woman.

Like, what's your name?

Whatever you want it to be.

Yeah, so the Republicans heard like federal judges say, like, I remember Mitch McConnell came to Morning Joe with a crumpled-up piece of paper in his pocket, ready to defend his endorsement of Donald Trump.

And he said, Look, he's going to appoint all these people.

Donald Trump didn't give a shit who no, but he did that, but he did all those things, right?

And so he answered the prompt properly for Mitch McConnell.

And then he gave his aspirational fans from the, he had fans.

I mean, I guess back to your first point, like Trump was the first

Republican politician with fans.

100%.

That's the thing.

He really did.

And what's important to understand, because it's very easy.

I don't believe in Trump derangement syndrome.

It's so ridiculous.

He's irritating.

Like, that's just normal.

He's a fucking irritating person.

He's doing terrible things.

And so you're mad about it.

Fine.

That's, that's okay.

Steve Jobs once said, the key to Apple was they took complex ideas and made them simple, complex things and made them simple.

And what too many people do is they take simple things and make them complex.

And people are upset.

The ability to make things simple is a really, can be a very good and beautiful gift.

In the case of Apple, they made a beautiful phone.

It was simple, right?

It's easy to use.

You got it right away.

Trump does that for people.

He makes it seem simple.

He makes the complex issues of the world seem like, oh, I got a plane.

So what?

It's like a putt.

But why can't the people trying to defeat him in the Republican Party?

He's faced two Republican primaries and he creamed all of them.

They weren't even contested.

Right.

And he's beat two of the three Democrats he's run against.

Well, because now he's coalesced power.

So he's got it.

Right.

So now it's inevitable that you can't go against him.

There were moments when they certainly could have, but I think what they were doing is each of them was playing it safe, like what I was just talking about with Harris, like too cautious.

There's no such thing as cautious.

You cannot be cautious.

The other thing is I don't think they speak plainly plainly to people.

I think what the Democrats definitely don't.

I mean, like, here's a good oligarch.

Please stop saying that word.

I know what it means.

Right.

I went to college, but like, what is an oligarch?

No one knows.

I mean, unless you study Russian history and it's the correct word.

It's just, why not just say rich people taking your things?

Like that kind of thing.

And so

when I would talk about, say, an Elon Musk, I'm like, that rich guy's taking your things and he's getting, well, the getting's good, that kind of thing.

And I think Trump does that really well.

He's sort of, when he did the putt thing, everyone made fun of him.

I said, said, everyone got what he said.

Everyone got that message because they understood.

He took what is really repulsive corruption down to a, yeah, someone offering something.

Everybody does it.

Not just everybody does it.

It's like, so what?

Big deal.

Well, and I think what a lot of people will believe is that he's the smart one and we're the suckers because he got a plane for America for free and we're dumb schmos who would have paid for it.

Right.

And we would have charged them,

by the way.

Of course we are.

Yeah.

We'll pause here, but when we're back, we'll have much more with Kara Swisher.

Back in a moment.

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I have this sort of philosophy that anyone that does grave, seemingly like

indiscriminate destruction to an institution, whether it's cheered on by their base or not, is separate from their own sort of pathology, why they do it, that there's some trauma story or some

something.

And that's always been my theory with trump and the more i've gotten to know the family members that have written books that seems to bear out what is elon musk's trauma story you know one of the things i used to say to a lot of people i covered because you could see that the trauma obviously lack of therapy we would have done very well if he had gone to therapy at one point but he didn't but i always always there were a couple different people and i'd say i'm so sorry your parents didn't hug you enough as a child but they're dead So let's move.

Let's see where we can go from here.

And so that's not an excuse.

It's an explanation.

That's all I have to do for, right?

Right.

Because here we are.

Right.

In some places, people are just bad people.

Yeah.

They're just.

Is he a bad person?

No.

No.

He wasn't.

I will tell.

He definitely had problems from the get with stuff around racism.

You know, his, his family history is really quite fraught with racial issues in South Africa.

Tell me the

basics of it.

His grandfather was so anti-Semitic, he got kicked out of Canada to go to South Africa.

You know what I mean?

That's the his grandfather was an absolute dead

active professional anti-Semite and racist, was absolutely.

Now, again, that's his grandfather.

He never met him really.

I think he was

a toddler when his grandfather died.

But there's the history of it.

Like

we escape our history, but at the same time, it's something we need to acknowledge, right?

As we as we move forward.

You know, he was raised by a very difficult parent, father.

I don't think the mother was any walk in the park either, by the way.

They always focus on the father, but my feeling is they're all feral, essentially.

And I think that he had a bunch of trauma when he was younger.

He says bullying.

I don't know.

It never has been reported out, but that's what his, what he and his family say.

And, and so I think he had a lot of trauma.

And then he was, you know, he has off these autism issues.

Um,

and he, he's a creative person who's very deeply enmeshed in science fiction, whether we're in a simulation or not, very creative.

Do you think he's taking things that we're in a simulation?

He told me that.

Yeah, he's told them Elon on stage.

He said it's not, it's a non-zero possibility.

That's their favorite expression, that this is all some alien race that is playing a video game.

I mean, everything, I often look at Elon in terms of video games, right?

He loves video games, even if he cheats at them, apparently, according to other gamers, to give himself more purchase.

And that's all about not being loved enough if you have to push yourself out there, right?

Essentially.

But one of the things that I've always thought that he's in a a video game and he's the central player.

If you play video games, there's a central player and everyone else is a non-player character.

That's how I look at what he thinks.

And so he's ready player one.

And that's it.

I think he started off as someone who was trying to do really interesting things.

And one of the things that attracted me to him was you had all these tech people that were like making another dating service or a digital dry cleaning.

Like someone, Carol, we're doing digital dry cleaning.

I'm like, I'm going to kill myself if I have to talk to you.

Right.

And so he was doing like cars.

Yeah.

That was cool.

Like, I really do believe in the issues around fossil fuels.

He was doing space.

I actually believe we do need to be a multi-planetary species because if we're just going to rely on this planet, someday we will not exist.

Makes sense.

And so he was, all the stuff he was doing, energy was interesting.

Even the stuff that was kind of wacky, like the Hyperloop, I'm like, interesting, right?

At least you're thinking of things that are interesting, even if some of it is just nonsense and just not just vaporware, essentially.

I didn't care.

I was like, these are good, interesting, big ideas.

And so what's interesting about him is that he was on that train.

And then as he got wealthier, as he got more acclaim, as people sucked up to them, as inevitably happens with rich people or famous people, most rich people now, he started to believe his own nonsense and became overly dramatic.

At one point, we did an interview where he said, if Tesla doesn't survive, humanity is doomed to me.

And I was like, are you fucking kidding me?

No, there's been a car, like you could die and there'll be another car company.

But he was he was in this megalomaniac kind of zone and you know very dramatic.

I have to sleep on the factory floor, which I was like, there's a hotel next door.

Why do you need to do that?

But just like he was living in this kind of weird dramatic fantasy.

And it helps you, if you're an entrepreneur, be like that, be sort of suspend disbelief, essentially.

And he was like that.

And then COVID, I have to say, did

a number on him mentally.

No idea.

I did a number on a lot of people mentally, right?

So some people react to certain things.

I think the isolation,

I think he already had a proclivity for taking credit for things he didn't do or wanting to be at the center of attention and look at me, which to me always stems from parenting.

I just feel like it does.

I think that he started using drugs quite a bit.

I think that's been well reported, especially ketamine.

And if you've ever taken it, which I did, it's a very disassociative drug.

I hated it.

I only took it to understand, but it was, I've never felt more alone in my life.

Not lonely, alone.

Like, oh my God, I'm completely alone.

You know, when you're sitting outside and look at the scars for five minutes, you're like, I'm alone in the universe.

This is an extended version of that, essentially.

And I think the one that I recall with Elon was when they didn't invite him to that summit, that car summit.

And I heard an earful from him a lot.

It was, cause it was also like, I was like, calm the fuck down, dude.

Like you didn't get invited because of unions, because it is union hostilities, terrible hostility unions.

And so as he was getting more megalomiacal, moving more into the drugs, getting more attention as a rich person, escaping reality that most people live in, that happened.

And I think

because he's such a petty person, that really got under his skin.

And later I remember talking to people in the box, I was like, oh, that wasn't good.

You need to.

bear hug that guy like right away.

But then he started going down lunatic highway with the Aunt Nancy Pelosi's husband when he got attacked.

He retweeted very heinously.

And then I was like, oh, fuck you.

Like, are you kidding me?

You bought this thing.

I refuse to let you do this.

And then it continued with racist stuff and anti-Semitic stuff and, you know, the wink and a nod kind of stuff.

He didn't even have the guts to be that way.

Like, I don't have any respect for those people, but at least they have the guts to say they're terrible, heinous things.

He was like, interesting, concerning.

Well, while retweeting a bunch of really nonsensical,

vile things.

And to me, that makes you a coward.

Like, at least if you're going to be that way, be that way.

And so he did that.

So you understand the Trump.

Oh, what's he doing with the government?

I think he has a thing in his head that he has this narrative in his head that the government is terrible.

Yeah.

We can all agree the government needs reform for the past, I don't know, million years.

But the federal workforce is the one that was

taking efficiencies.

And they would appreciate the efficiency.

And that's what they're doing here.

He can't find fraud.

He can't find much fraud.

Well, just like Trump can't find the people who are adjudicated criminals to deport.

Right.

You have to like dig them up, and they're usually hardworking people.

And one of the things I think that it's shown is that we run a pretty good government, and the only way to really cut things is to deal with health care.

That's just like, let's be honest.

You could even Scott was telling me this last time, if you taxed all the richest people in the world correctly, it still wouldn't matter.

So drop in the friggin bucket.

We have to deal with health care, the expense of health care, even defense spending, expense of health.

You pay double the amount that everyone else does.

And our government is in debt because of it.

And if we don't, reforming healthcare would go a long way, but that's too hard.

That's true.

So it's just easier.

It's easier to wield a chainsaw and scream at your dad and go after, and he went after things.

I'll tell you that we're regulating him for the first time.

And so, of course, it's all in his self-interest.

And that's the same with all these guys.

You have four kids.

I think I had my feelings about the election.

I was pretty crushed to see Trump win after January 6th and after being convicted.

But I think I was most

sad that my son, who's now 13, the first time Trump was there, he didn't really sort of oblivious to it.

But this time, he'll be 17 when he leaves office.

This is their era, right?

Right.

And so I feel like in this second Trump presidency, it's not to be endured.

We have to find a way to sort of thrive and

make the most of it.

But how do you talk to your kids about well?

I have two different sets of kids.

I have older.

I'm a straight white man.

So I've had my second family and i have older kids who are trump is all they know right i mean they they sort of know obama um my ex-wife worked in the obama white house so they were old enough to understand the obama era um but largely it's a little a lot been trump you know with a biden moment in between and so i think i i do watch them a lot and i find i am more heartened by younger people than

older people.

I think the problem we have is people 30 to 50.

They need to shut the fuck up and calm the fuck down.

All of them, the right and the left, right?

Like calm the fuck down because they're always on Twitter.

They're always doom scrolling.

They're always like,

you know, younger people have a much less frantic attitude.

They do.

And so I do feel better when I talk to my kids.

But I do think they,

I think we have to make them feel that one, government works for them, that they have respect for government, that there are heroes, that there are people that are heroes, that this idea of get while the get-in's good.

Who are the heroes?

For me, there's so many.

There's all kinds of heroes.

I mean, I think average people are the heroes, right?

Like average people are the heroes.

And we spend too much time in this celebrity culture.

Although I do think like someone like some musicians are so incredibly beautiful the way they do stuff.

My kids listen to a lot of hip-hop and stuff like that and explain it to me.

And then I see it.

I'm like, oh, this is.

My son does the thing on Spotify where he shows me the lyric

and tells me the story.

Like it's like an important story.

Exactly.

And I think like parents judge.

I refuse to ever judge his music choice.

Sometimes I don't want to play it out loud around my music.

My music choice is terrible.

They have incredibly good taste, right?

One time my son was using my Spotify and someone saw it and said, you have great taste.

I'm like, it's not my taste.

Yeah, my son has better taste than that.

They were doing that.

So I don't know.

I think there's a lot of heroes.

I think

your parents should be your heroes, right?

I think ultimately one of the things that I think is lost is.

a community aspect.

I think online does.

At one point, my son was looking at his phone.

I used to make them put them down.

And he goes, just, there's just one more thing.

I go, there's always one more thing on this thing.

I said, it's an endless supply of information.

You have to just, it's addictive.

It's, you can't not use it because it's important for social.

It's important for your job.

And it's everywhere.

It's ubiquitous.

And so it's like a drug.

It's like a, you know, the only other, the only other industry that says the word user is a drug, is the drug industry, right?

Users reuse your phone.

And so one of the things that, you know, I spent a lot of time doing with them is them trying to pick their head up and look around.

And I think, you know, I've been pushing really hard for schools to take phones out of schools, for example.

Everyone's like, that's so conservative of you.

I'm like, no, it isn't.

It's an addictive thing.

You can't, you can't physically look away from it.

And so I spent a lot of time talking about that.

There was a movie, I think it was Barry Levinson.

I'm not sure.

It was a big ethnic family that was in Baltimore.

And they did everything together and picnics and various things.

But as the movie got later, the television entered the scene and there was a scene of them all watching television eating dinner.

And then he pulled out and then there's just the blue glow.

And I remember thinking, that's what this is, right?

It's an even more immersive experience.

And as we get into AI, we get into robotics, we get into vision, which is going to, you're going to have, we will isolate from each other in a way.

And so I spent a lot of time talking about that with my kids.

Do you think those innovations are good?

Are they bad?

Does it not matter?

We just have to put them in.

It doesn't matter.

They're coming.

Like, it's coming.

It's coming.

And you can't, but you have to understand the addictive nature of them.

And again, when something's addictive and necessary, that's the real rub.

And it can be either a tool or a weapon.

You're kind of fucked, right?

And how do you teach a kid?

I mean, we wouldn't let kids smoke one cigarette.

You know, I mean, how do you, how do you, like, what are your, for your littles, what are your screaming?

Frozen.

Then there's

spawn.

And then there's frozen.

Yeah.

Then there's frozen three.

Frozen three is coming.

Sing one and sing two.

They don't like sing.

They don't really.

Now it's paw patrol, which is upsetting me because that sucks.

We're a big sing and pets unlimited yeah a lot of it we only let them use it for uh it's just the way you consume um tv yeah kind of stuff and i don't mind it i'm just i mean i do i have a one and a half year old and we watch movies like talk about addictive when you go to the supermarket now they have products that are frozen products oh i know i like them all yeah frozen frozen yogurt yeah yeah yeah right okay and my daughter has to have it right has to have it and every time i take a picture there was frozen string cheese the other day of course i had to buy it i mean i don't have to but i do.

And I take a picture and I send it to Bagabay.

I'm like, fuck you.

Fuck you.

And he's like, ha ha ha, I've got you again.

Everywhere.

But it's hard because they love to, like, they love it.

It's cute.

And especially because, listen, even with adults, TV has gotten really good.

Talk about something that used to be the boob tube is now the intelligent tube, right?

Right.

TV shows.

are astonishing

right they're incredible actually and so that i look at that in a good way like there's some amazing stuff that art is happening on TV now.

Are you optimistic?

I mean, you laid out tech has all this power.

I mean, the

image of inauguration with all of them on the stage was just like harrowing to me.

It was.

Like, if you know what it's supposed to look like, the idea that like the richest people are in the world.

All these guys were looking out at us.

Like, you know.

Well, Trump did that on purpose.

Of course, he's brilliant.

And that way, it was interesting because what that was showing was Trump showing.

I think he purposely wanted to be inside.

So that would be the visual, right?

So I'm sure that he had the richest people in the world at his beck and call.

Now, what I think he doesn't get, because he's a grifter, he gets this, right?

They too want the things they want.

And so they were there to get, as they did in the first Trump administration when they wandered up to Trump Tower for that meeting, which I broke that story when they did that.

And they did it in a kind of a sneaky way where they didn't talk about immigration.

They just wanted their tax breaks.

They wanted this.

They have the same set of things.

And this time it's for AI.

They want a hegemony in AI and they want no restrictions in AI, cryptocurrency, and a number of other tax-related things.

And

he is giving it to them right now.

Everyone has a different thing they want.

Bezos would like the investigations to go away about their pricing power.

Apple would like the investigation.

Google's already lost two cases, and so that looks like it's headed.

I don't think Trump can do much about those.

But they all want a different thing.

And largely right now, cryptocurrency aside, because that's obviously the Trump family is using that to

give themselves payments secretly is AI.

Who is going to dominate in AI?

And the government will have a significant part because there are national security implications.

And so they're all there

in the next big competition.

And so it makes utter sense that they're there for that.

And everything else they say, and Musk wants to go to Mars, and he's getting that.

That's what he wants.

And he really does.

And that is, to me, his ultimate goal was that.

And to get the regulators off his back.

It's not that it's helped Tesla in any way and that's going to help.

Tesla's Tesla's going down right now.

Do you think so?

Oh, yeah.

And it stops being a viable.

Well, I always say the planes are covered with the bodies of pioneers.

I mean, they were a true pioneer in the space.

I think the reason, even though he blames these protests and this and that and his stupid, I mean, he brought this on himself, FYI, these protests.

So stop blaming the protesters.

Just his.

Well, then the

criticism is so biding.

The world's richest man killing the world's poorest.

I thought that was amazing.

I'll tell you about that in a second.

But the First Amendment stuff he's talking about is nonsense.

It's just, that's not what they believe in.

They want a thing.

And so I always look at the things they want, and Trump will give it to them.

And in AI, it's critical that they have no federal regulation in an area that absolutely needs federal and global regulation.

This is like we're in the dawn of the nuclear age, and the private companies are going to decide what nuclear bombs are.

That's what this is.

That's right.

And so we are in a really critical.

And Trump will give them carte blanche to do all these things.

Will Trump give them carte blanche because it's the transaction that benefits him or because he doesn't understand?

Both.

I think both.

I think he understands what

it means.

I think he understands.

Yes, sure.

Because I think intuitively, he's got a lizard mentality, right?

He's got that lizard brain.

So he kind of sees where the power is.

And I think he does.

I mean, of course, he's over in crypto.

That's where the scammers are.

Yeah.

He gets that.

Scott was saying, if, you know, in

scamming, he is Marco Clorleone and in governing, he's Fredo.

Yeah.

Which is why I'm Michael Clorleone.

Exactly.

But, you know, I think he does understand.

And the government will be critical to understanding and how we react with China and how much regulation there is.

But they want unfettered, which is a real mistake because all our great innovations have been made through a public-private partnership along with universities.

So Trump's attacking universities where the internet was invented, AI was invented.

That's the real problem.

And the smartest scientists.

These private companies will only do things for shareholder value.

And honestly, they should.

That's their job.

They don't have to save our world, but that means everything will be done for shareholder value.

And that's a prescription for disaster for most of humanity.

We'll be right back with more from Kara Swisher.

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Do you walk around this planet feeling more scared or more optimistic?

I'm a student of history.

I think we've gone through these things.

I mean, people that especially Americans, we don't remember, you know, you remember the Whiskey Rebellion?

We almost ended on that.

We almost ended on Huey Long.

We almost ended on McCarthy.

Oh, yeah.

You know, you can read, we have been through,

especially, you know, I would recommend Rachel's book prequel because it's all the same thing.

Like it's the same lunatics who mess up trials and yell and senators that are bought and paid for by the Nazis in that case.

And so you sort of are like, we keep doing this.

We're so suicidal as a nation in some ways.

And then we pull it out kind of thing with innovation, with excitement, with going somewhere.

But this guy is really doing a number on.

on democracy.

He's doing a number on he's stressing the system.

And it's held up in many good ways, right?

With the courts, the judges, but pushing it towards violence is something I do worry about.

The shove, the slight shove towards violence.

And I do think that is an opportunity for the Democrats to stop.

They have to start saying what they are, like what they're for.

And I think what's interesting to me is that Trump's numbers are really low, but the Democrats are really low.

This is like, are you kidding me?

This guy is on the ropes and this is where the Democrats are.

Yeah, I mean, politics used to be about zero sum, right?

One went up and one went down.

Our politics are now

just zero, zero.

Zero, zero.

So why not start to say, again, it's this risk-takingness that the Democrats don't have.

Oh, the authenticity.

The authenticity and the risk-taking.

Like, do a $25 minimum wage.

So what if it doesn't pass?

Say it and make it.

Before what you're for.

Before what you're for and say what you're.

And there are a few politicians like that.

There's a number of them.

Yeah.

Who do you like?

I've always tried to get Mark Cuban to run for president.

I won't do it.

Why?

Why won't he do that?

I don't know why.

I'm like, why am I backing another billionaire?

I don't know why.

He has some money.

He's a great communicator.

He's got a great communication.

I appreciate how he communicates.

He's compared to a lot of people I've covered.

He was such a jerk when he was younger.

He and I used to be, I was like, you're such a jerk, like you arrogant prick, essentially.

And he has evolved.

I like a person who's evolved.

He's a great communicator.

He's always thinking about things and now he's thinking about solutions.

I think Gates is someone I never got along with.

I can't believe it.

And, you know, literally, I was like, you're an awful, like.

One point when

my partner was interviewing Melinda Gates on stage, we were backstage and she was so great.

I was like, you know what?

I like you 10% more.

And you're married to her.

And I was married to someone he liked.

And he's like, I like you 10% more.

And he goes, where are we at?

Then I go, 10%.

Because it was like, but he has really evolved as a, he had said that to me earlier this year about Musk when he was cutting USA.

He was very upset because he has shifted and dedicated his life to really helping people.

Like really, truly.

He's like Andrew Carnegie situation.

Bates has been on the ground in Africa for a hundred decades.

Well, what happened actually?

He was really anti-government.

When I first met him, he was super anti-government sucks.

And then he went there and he saw the complexity of it and he saw the things.

And then he started to appreciate some of government.

Some of it doesn't work, some of it does, but you can't, life is complex because that's what an adult does.

And he said that something, a version of that to me backstage in an event I did with him when he did his Netflix documentary.

And I said, why don't you fucking say that in public?

Why don't they?

I mean, he really did.

What are they afraid of?

Well, I think they're afraid.

They're afraid of the, he already had been attacked for COVID, for vaccines.

Yeah.

Remember, he was putting vaccines, he was attacked personally.

He was vaccinated.

All these plots and shit like that.

So he got a lot of income.

Even if you're the world, one of the world's richest people, it's terrifying when you have all that hate aimed at you.

I don't know.

I think he thought we were still in the same old system where, you know, you don't.

You don't talk dirty of the other people.

And

I said, you need to say that publicly.

And I think he got around to it.

He's like, I'm sick of this shit.

And I think Melinda was saying it.

And so he was a little competitive.

She was saying it to clear because all the women say it clearly, whether it's Lorraine Jobs backing the Atlantic or Mackenzie Bezos just giving away the money, the women are really of third tech are out there doing the actual thing.

And so I think he got, he was like, why am I not saying it?

Are you looking at the post and telling me that?

I was, yes.

I am.

Yeah.

I could raise the money easily.

Very easily.

There are good billionaires out there.

I mean, I don't even have to go very far to go down the stack, but he doesn't want to sell it.

He doesn't want to sell it.

I don't say you can't buy something someone doesn't want to sell.

And so I have a vision for it.

What's the vision?

It's about creating a national newspaper in a different way, in a new digital way that takes from all across the country.

I think there's so much really interesting entrepreneurial journalism going on across the country, all these little startups and journalism.

Sub-stack newspaper almost.

But except with taste.

I'm sorry.

Curated.

I'm not a fan of platforming Nazis.

I don't care.

You can do it if you want.

But I wouldn't.

Or was this philosophy, a pro-democracy?

Philosophy is a pro-democracy.

You know, he's like, we're for free markets.

I'm for democracy.

That's what we're for.

I think democracy dies in the full light of day, not in darkness.

and so i have an idea of using the post as a vessel and bringing in the things that these people need right now say podcasters or or there's all these websites starting in websites and news organizations starting in like mississippi and louisiana they're doing amazing jobs they're non-profits most of them and why not give them audiences and coalesce the things they need and everyone's doing artisanal is audience advertising help with video youtube strategy everyone's doing it on their own but there's there's a need for us.

It's sort of the opposite of the New York Times approach.

New York Times, everything is baked here in our beautiful autismal bakery that you love.

Well, why not help everybody else?

Like stone, think of like stone soup.

That's what I call my project, stone soup.

Like let's create that and use the post as the vehicle, because there's very few national.

things.

Why not use that as the vehicle, have a great layer of great journalism on the top, not heavy, very thin, and then go all around and pull it in.

And through AI, really, you can build your own newspaper of what you want and what your needs are and sort of beat them at their own game because you have taste and you have editorial taste.

Like platforming the point of view and the quality.

All over, whatever you want.

Outsourcing the work, the journalists.

But have a level of editorial taste and discretion

and smartness where you, we're not going to do that.

We're not going to let anyone say what they want.

We're not going to, we're going to have smart discussions.

And you would do it like in like a lot of companies have to also have to own everything.

I don't have to, like, I want to own my stuff.

And so do a lot of entrepreneurial journalists and media organizations.

Why not let them own it?

And I'll take 30%.

I'll sell your advertising.

I'll give you legal protection.

I'll give you this.

I'll give you that.

The idea I had at the post, which I thought was a good one, was Catherine Graham.

Remember her tit was caught in a ringer?

Remember when they threatened her?

I was going to create the Ringer Foundation and fund all these things and then say, everybody, we're going to create an insurance company for media companies now to push back.

and sue these fuckers that are doing these nonsense lawsuits at media companies.

Okay, you want to sue us?

We're going to sue you.

We're going to sue you back.

We're going to protect Times versus Sullivan.

We're going to bring in the best First Amendment lawyers.

You think you're going to win this?

Like, I think one of the things that doesn't happen is we sort of sit here and react to their aggression.

I can punch someone in the nose just the same kind of thing.

And so I think you could use something like the Post to create a whole new kind of media organization.

And you have to figure out the costs because one of the things I have done is everything I've made has made a profit.

So you have to sort of start to think of journalism as not a church and not,

it either has to be owned by billionaires or be a nonprofit.

It can't be a business.

And so we need entrepreneurial media figures around to try to figure that out.

And I don't know.

I feel like we can do it.

I can't wait to see that.

Well, he's not selling that.

There are other, I can find another, if Jeff Bezos doesn't want to sell me his.

container, I will find another container.

But I don't think, I think he's a terrible owner at this point.

I think he's,

I've never liked him personally.

I think he's always been a difficult person.

He was a Wall Street guy to start with.

Everyone sort of got fooled into thinking he was this liberal icon.

He liked books.

He never was.

He was a Wall Street guy.

Like, let's be clear.

And now he's with the person he wants to, the life he wants to live, which is very, very like glamorous, whatever.

Good all power to his astonishing midlife crisis,

which it is, right?

It's amazing.

Let me tell you, I never saw those muscles on that fat.

I was about to say the muscles are amazing.

Well, that's, but you have to, like, people are like, don't talk about their looks.

I'm like, but he's saying something with his face

you also can't hide from it but he's saying something

they put it out there i know somebody's like you shouldn't talk about it but i'm like literally the man is putting out pictures of me in a tight t-shirt i can talk about it so he should do that i just don't think he's the correct owner for what he's the washing at least not at this moment and i'm not romantic about the washington post either if it doesn't work it doesn't work yeah but I grew up there and I worked for Ben Bradley.

I worked for Catherine Graham.

And I got to tell you, that was a magical time.

And I'm not nostalgic for it.

I just think the reason they succeeded is because they were providing a great product at the right time for the right people for the right prices.

It's so sad that all those great journalists have fled.

I mean, that to me from the outside is just such a sad signal.

Yeah, well, having talked to everyone as they leave.

I feel like I'm the exit interview from Washington Park.

Sure.

Well, everyone wants to know where they are.

And let me tell you something of all the people that left.

None of them wanted to leave.

I'm sure not.

None of them wanted.

That was remarkable to me.

They had all these offers, very talented people, but they love that institution.

So I do, too.

I started in a mail room.

Yeah.

What do you, what do you advise us to do as we sort of are in our

opening inning here?

Yeah.

Well, I think it's an opportunity.

Like I heard a lot of belly aching, like, oh my God, what are you doing?

First of all, you made a lot of money and that profit used to go over to the mothership all the time, right?

You didn't get to use it.

You made a lot of money.

It's a declining thing.

That is true, but you still make a lot of money.

What are you going to do with that money?

It gives you an opportunity to be entrepreneurial.

And I remember saying to someone, stop your fucking belly aching.

You have an opportunity to make things.

You have an opportunity to win or lose, essentially, because you can now have your own destiny.

I know we're in a post-fact society, but we really aren't.

And so if you have great reporters and you keep coming in, like there's been never, like, as I said, Wired is doing astonishing reporting on Google.

They can't escape the truth.

And so if you do it, and people still want it.

That's correct.

You also got like a surge.

I was reading their new numbers.

I mean, like, people can't get enough of that.

That's right.

You guys are going up.

Not in Wall Street Journal.

I mean, they've done incredible reporting on trump story that's right

so i'm saying if they can do it why can't we and that's what i would say but i always think like people are always like how do you think of your product i'm like i'm what am i making today what do i like making it because if i don't i'm gonna stop yeah two what am i making what am i gonna make i think of it like a chef like what am i making today and what are the ingredients that are going into it and you have an opportunity to make what are you what are you gonna do like and i think that's the best thing you have going forward and plus you already make money you do have this legacy business that is declining cable well okay now what streaming What are you going to do?

You make a streaming thing?

Are you going to partner with people?

Are you going to buy things?

Are you going to like stop acting like it's the end times, right?

That to me is like, is a prescription for failure.

And it's sorry things have changed, but my friends, they've changed.

And AI is going to change it some more.

So how can you use AI?

Right.

Like so many people journals I talk to don't use AI.

I'm like, what is your fucking problem?

What would we use AI for?

Everything.

Everything?

It's everything.

Like when the internet first started, I covered it early and I did see it early.

I remember standing in front of, there was a teletype machine that went,

you know, that would, and you pull the news off and then you type it.

Right.

But I used to stare at that fucking teletype machine.

I'm like, you need to take this out of here or like make it into like a coffee urn or something because we're not using this anymore.

Everything's on there.

On the computer.

Yes.

And they're like, well, you know, it's important.

I'm like, no.

And I used to obsess on it.

They used to be like, what is your problem?

I was like, I want to take a hammer and break it because I was like, that is not the future.

It's old.

And I should, I didn't do it.

I didn't do it.

But I was always like, you have to keep leaning into really so.

The internet, when it first started, I put my email and my stories and all the reporters are like, why do you want readers to talk to you?

I'm like, because they're smarter than you are.

That's for fucking sure.

And second, so then I would get feedback from people.

I didn't listen to it all the time, but they knew, they knew what they liked.

I got to hear from them.

That's like we began our conversation.

The second thing is someone said, what's the internet?

to me when it first started.

This is in the early night, the 90s, right?

And I said, it's everything.

And they're like, what are you talking about?

I said, what's the world?

It's this, this, it's that.

It's you.

It's my face.

It's everything.

Yeah.

So what are you going to do with it?

And they're like, what do you mean everything?

It doesn't matter what it is.

It's everything.

It's everything.

So you should use it.

She start asking it questions.

And what it is, is essentially the version of it is, is now.

The internet, you used to go search for things just like you used to search in a circuit city for a TV.

But now then Amazon made it.

So it came to you through algorithmic search, right?

It's the same thing.

Google used to go find it and then you go down into the website and then find it, find it, find it.

Now it just brings it out at you.

And it's broken a little bit now, but it's getting better.

It's getting better and better as humanity is getting worse and worse.

And just like I said at the beginning with Google, it is us.

Yeah.

It is us is what it is.

And it will start giving you things.

So I put in, I said, come up with a, with a, with a logo, five seconds.

This is what I want it to look like.

This is what I want it to say.

Now, people are like, oh, you put all these graphic people out of business.

They're going to have to, yes, unfortunately.

I feel, I feel slightly badly, but the fact of the matter is, do you feel, like someone was saying that to me, like, oh, you put a graphic, I said, do you feel badly eating that fucking carrot that was made by mechanized farming?

Are you thinking about all the farmers you put out everything?

Like our world changes.

Then those people have to, we have to get great jobs for those people.

So if you're doing like Aurora is a, as a trucking, an autonomous trucking, oh, it's going to end it for trucking.

First of all, we don't have enough truckers to, it's an incredibly dangerous job.

People shouldn't be doing trucking 24 hours a day because they can't do it.

These cars just keep going.

Why not create jobs at hubs in cities and then send truckers into the cities?

Not just dispatch, but

bring the autonomous trucks into cities.

So have people bring them in.

Then people can live near their homes and have better lives.

Like start to be creative about what you're doing.

And so with AI, use it every day.

Use it for once you use it, just like the internet when people were using it for the first time, then they got it.

Then you're like, oh,

once you start using it, you will understand it completely.

It is so intuitively easy to figure out once you get it.

There's a huge amount of danger, too, about what it could do, but there's also a huge amount of good things that you cancer research, drug discovery, drug interaction.

Like, is it real kills a lot of people?

Diagnostic.

Well, to your point about healthcare, I mean, there's a lot of interesting healthcare stuff.

Totally.

So use it.

Use it.

We love even to talk to you.

Will you come back?

Yes, anytime.

Okay.

I'm not the best at anything else.

I'm the best at going to a hardware store.

I'm right at that because I love hardware stores.

I like hardware stores too.

What's your, I like like

they're my church.

I like like a small local.

Are you like a

MDP?

Yeah, or are you like a neighbor?

San Francisco is the best hardware store in America.

On the Upper West Side, there's a great one on Amsterdam in the 70s.

Yeah.

We just walk up and down.

In the winter, they have sleds and in the summer they have sunscreen.

It's like, what is like tools?

I'm like, what is that?

And

we are such a crowd.

And humans are so creative.

All the, I mean, yeah.

The little shit.

And that's delightful.

So we could do a hardware store.

Yeah, we could do a hardware store trip.

Yeah.

Otherwise, I'm not an expert on it.

I'm a good parent.

We can talk about parenting someday.

I heard you're a great parent.

I am a great parent.

Most important thing.

You know what I don't do?

I don't say my kids suck.

That's what I, that's the one thing.

I love my kids so much.

I mean, I feel like I love them more every day in a way that like is almost like makes my heart hurt.

Yeah.

But they're great.

One of the things, a friend of mine, they were like belly aching about their kids or something like that.

And like, how are your kids?

I'm like, my kids are great.

And they're like, well, you know, kids are difficult.

I'm like, they're really not.

They're not.

I'll tell you what's difficult.

10 other things.

Yeah.

My kids.

Yeah.

So 10,000.

Happy to talk about parenting.

I know.

I know.

Lesbians should do all the parenting, just so you know.

Teach all of us how to do.

Yeah.

You have tall, beautiful macho men who are love women and women who are confident of themselves.

My son, my son.

Just give all the kids to lesbians and then we'll give you back.

I, I mean, I really feel like this is the moment.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

The best.

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