Rachel Maddow: Born to Dilly Dally, Forced to Fight Fascism

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A friend sent me a meme the other day.

It was like a Paddington meme, and it was the caption was, born to Dilly Dally,

forced to fight fascists.

Really?

You had me at Dilly Dally.

Hi, everyone.

It's Nicole Wallace.

You may know me from Deadline White House.

This is our new podcast called The Best People.

Rachel Maddow is our North star here at MSNBC.

She also happens to be as funny and smart and supportive off-camera as she is on.

So for this episode of The Best People, we dig into the news, shirtless Vladimir Putin, and all sorts of other things.

This is The Best People with Nicole Wallace, and this is my dear friend, Rachel Maddow.

So Rachel, thank you for doing this.

I know you're more than very, very, very busy, but you are truly,

I I don't know why I feel about to get weepy, but you're not just one of the best people in my life.

You're one of my closest friends in this world.

You are everyone's TV friend, but I feel like you get to be my real world friend.

And I have to say, the last six months, I know where I was when I called you in all my scary moments.

There's a part on my run where I ran with the baby and I would have to run far enough that she'd be asleep, but I would like pull off in this spot.

And as the election was coming to an end and the stories that we covered became so real, and in my scary moments, like you were my lifeline and the person that I've always called.

And

I feel now like we're doing the actual work and I feel a little less scared.

Yeah.

But I wonder how you're feeling.

And I feel like for me, you're the person that got my head back in the game and reminded me not just why we're doing this, but that we're not doing it alone.

We have, we have you.

Well, I mean, we're all trying to do a version of the same thing, but I feel like the thing that has been helpful helpful for me in talking to you through this whole process is

it's just kind of a reminder that like we've been talking about and worrying about the edge of the cliff for so long, but then it turns out time is linear and it goes forward.

And that interacts with that other metaphor.

And as time goes forward, we did get closer to the edge of the cliff and we have now gone off the cliff.

And it turns out time is still linear and still goes forward and the sun still rises and you still have to do stuff.

And so now we have experienced what the edge of the cliff is like and what it's like to be in midair.

And we are now in the canyon on the other side of the cliff and we are seeing what life is like there.

And it's just, you know.

I am your friend who sends you weird country music songs.

This is like a Robert Joaquin moment for us, like the road goes on forever and the party never ends.

Turns out like in the middle of a fascist takeover, what happens is there's a fascist takeover and you have to keep still doing the work.

Then you are a person who's fighting an existing fascist authoritarian government and not just warning about it and trying to avert it from happening.

Like you just, you have to keep putting one foot in front of the other.

There isn't, this isn't a play.

This isn't a movie.

This is our lives.

And as long as we're here, we have stuff to do.

I feel like the work you did of showing the country in this moment was so

awesome to see that like we're all in the canyon together like because trump did all the things he said he was going to do and because you know and for the record like he's not mad when you describe him as autocratic i mean it's not a there have been friction points right like he didn't like media coverage of the investigations into his campaign's ties to russia but i'm not aware of him calling to complain about describing his you know policies, tactics, and temperament as autocratic.

There's something more out in the open this time.

Oh, yeah.

I think one of the reasons that I often use the term strong man

to describe him is I think like, oh, I think he'd probably call himself a strong man too.

Like,

but I like that.

He thinks it means like strong space man.

I don't think, like, I think in the beginning, when he was calling Orbat a strong man, he meant like he's a man with, you know, his muscle muscles.

Like, like, I don't think, I think if he understands that word now in the context of like autocracy, it's been explained to him.

Yeah, but I also think he probably likes the sound of it enough that anyway,

he doesn't think that's bad, like he likes the idea of a strong space man,

but then

if you explain it, either way, yes, yeah, strong man dictatorship, like okay, I don't know.

Like, he likes it.

I like everything about that.

I like all that on a hat, I like all the root words.

Authoritarian, yes.

I am a best-selling author, yes, I am.

Strongman, I am so strong.

Yes, I won't go there with dictator, but I just.

Oh, but

yeah, I mean, we're not, there isn't, this is not contested.

That's what I mean.

Like, like I found the first term and a lot of the, um, a lot of what he was doing was unearthed by investigative journalists who usually did their first TV interviews on your show and then, you know, and on our shows.

And that felt.

Not subversive, but it felt sort of illicit and like the information was being unearthed.

Everything, correct.

Everything is out in the open, like, including what they were trying to do to their own intelligence agencies to fabricate a legal rationale for mass deportations without due process.

And I mean, the grifting ahead of, you know, I did a lot of foreign trips with Bush, and like the advanced trips never included like hotel deals on the 1,000th floor of hotels in Abu Dhabi.

Like, they were like, where's a nice venue to go visit some kids for Mrs.

Bush?

Like, it's all out in the open.

Yeah.

Although I do feel like there's still

like real value in making sure that we're covering them in such a way that is not the stories that they want us to tell and not the topics they want us to be covering.

So

the whole provocation, you know, like yanking our chain stuff, like, you know, the Trump 2028 stuff and all those things are designed to get us to react, right?

Tap your moral compass, see if it's working.

We must express outrage because he's done an outrageous thing, blah, blah, blah.

I get it.

Like I understand how that all works, but there is, I feel like, real value in making sure that we are telling the stories that are not the stories of their choosing.

And so like one of the things that I've been thinking about with the relations with foreign countries stuff is not just the grifting stuff that they're doing in public, but like what's leading to these weird international new connections that we have.

Like one of the stories that I've been sort of starting to pursue is what's going on in Libya.

So like Libya turns up as a place where we're going to send immigrants who have no connection to Libya.

Why are we going to send them there?

I don't know.

People from the Philippines.

Yeah, really?

Why are people from the Philippines going to Libya?

And then, you know, Libya doesn't have a unified government.

They've got the Benghazi part.

Remember Benghazi?

Remember how upset?

Republicans in particular were about their whole conspiracy theories about Benghazi.

And then there's a different government that controls a different part of the country.

And

other part of the government keeps saying on the record, we have not had conversations with the U.S.

government.

We don't understand.

They are sending immigrants here.

We have no knowledge of this.

There's been no negotiations between us, government to government.

We don't know anything about this.

The other part of the Libyan government, the part in Benghazi, they're like, no comment.

And it turns out the Benghazi warlord, like the oil warlords in Benghazi have been talking to Tiffany Trump's father-in-law.

And so, remember when Tiffany Trump's father-in-law, they thought he was a billionaire and it turns out he just owns a truck dealership?

Yes.

Yes.

So like that guy who needs to be.

Like even if it's wildly successful, it's

not a billionaire truck dealership.

Like maybe Tiffany Trump thought her father-in-law was a billionaire and there, I don't know.

I don't know.

But he's got to prove himself, right?

Because that was humiliating.

And so he's connected with the like.

oil-soaked warlords of Benghazi to like apparently do deals for the U.S.

government to accept immigrants.

And they went so far as having people loaded on buses and ready to go before a court intervened there.

But now what's the new thing they say they're going to do in Libya?

They say they are going to,

like the phrase that is the most dangerous and worst collection of words in the English language, relocate the civilian population of Gaza.

And where are they going to put the Palestinians from Gaza?

They're going to put them in Libya.

That's the new U.S.

proposal, that the Palestinians are going to be forcibly taken away from their land and moved to Libya.

That's the way the U.S.

government is operating right now.

And do they want that story told?

No, they don't.

And so that makes me very interested in that story.

Well,

I also think if you go to the most fundamental thing that they're doing, they are moving human beings.

Yeah.

And I think if you pump the brakes right there, what the public thinks it's for is deporting back to home countries people people who are adjudicated criminals.

New York Times, Sienna's got like 87% of people that are for that.

That's largely what Obama did.

That is not where any of the time and energy has been spent.

And so all of the movement of human beings to countries from which they are not for crimes that they can't prove were committed, for people that it's not even clear they've presented evidence to anyone.

I mean, I just find it all so surreal.

I find the fact that everyone seems,

it doesn't feel like a partisan statement to say due process is a thing we're still for.

And I, like you, have driven by some of the protests on some of the big weekend protest days.

And to see people holding up the signs for due process like made my, you know, democracy worried heart.

sing.

But the other piece of it is the movement of humans.

Like I'm not, I'm not sure that we should be moving humans anywhere.

I'm not sure that any part of our politics ever contemplated anything other than deporting adjudicated criminals back to their home countries.

Yes.

And it turns out, like, all of this weird third country stuff that we're doing, like, why were we renditioning people during the George W.

Bush era, right?

It's because we wanted to hold people in terms that couldn't be justified under U.S.

law.

And so we made side deals with countries like Poland or Djibouti or whatever to hold people in these places to do terrible things to them that we couldn't do here.

Right.

So you know that history very well because of your previous life, right?

Yes.

But now we're moving people into these black sites in third countries

for what appear to be side deals

with oligarchs and warlords and dictators in those countries that in some cases benefit members of the Trump administration, right?

This Libya thing has all of my hairs standing up on end in terms terms of what's going on there.

Like who knows what's behind the recent news about South Sudan, really?

It's insane.

It's absolutely insane.

But in all of these cases, these black box deals to send people to places where there's no public policy justification for sending them whatsoever all gives opportunity for some sort of tribute or personal benefit.

to happen on the side of these things for the members of the Trump administration who are working these things out.

And so that story is

like, I'm interested in those kinds of stories.

And I think one of the things that we've learned from the Russian opposition and from Navalny's example is that no matter what kind of support the strongman or authoritarian has,

Nobody is excited about the prospect of him stealing from the people in order to build himself golden palaces with golden toilets.

And to the extent that we can like stay focused on the self-dealing and the corruption that is the real explanation behind all of these otherwise inexplicable policies.

I do think that that erodes their support, even from people who might, you know, enjoy some of the other things they're doing.

Well, I think, I mean, to the people enjoying the other things they're doing, I think the people that voted for him because they thought they would understand the other things that he was doing made a bad bet on the economy.

And I mean, I'm, I'm so, you know, like a moth to the flame to the extraordinary abuse of power of moving humans around.

I mean, I, I really, the first story I read about the group of young men sent to Venezuela has just stuck in my gut and nodded it every day since.

I mean, the idea that an innocent, you know, gay hairdresser is sitting there still.

It's been two months.

I mean, how is he?

You know, is he, is he okay?

Is he alive?

Has he had a phone call?

Did he do anything wrong?

No one's ever.

So to me, those stories just

sort of rot my faith in humanity that he did this and that people are okay with it.

I mean, just makes me question everything.

But I don't think people are okay with it is the thing.

I mean, like maybe there are some people who get a transgressive thrill from seeing the kind of cruelty that they're displaying and making propaganda out of.

But I actually think that there's a lot more people in polling bears this out who think it's both pointless and wrong.

Yeah.

Like I just think about that Chuck Grassley

Town Hall in Iowa.

Who knew him?

Who knew Chuck.

I mean, so he's like not some, you know, Democratic activist, is he?

No, he's his constituent.

He's his constituent.

You going to get that guy back from El Salvador?

Chuck, what are you doing?

Chuck guy.

I'm pissed.

Bring him back.

Yeah.

I mean, that's the, that's the heart of the American people on this issue.

And I think so.

I think they were really, this is one of the, I just did this little mini book tour.

I just did like

four or five nights, but one of the things that.

really like came up again and again, and we talked about it a lot, that it really seems like they were counting on

the dehumanizing propaganda around immigrants to have taken sufficient hold among the American people that their performative cruelty toward immigrants would actually be their most popular political action.

And they could get so much political capital out of abusing immigrants.

for the pleasure of the American people, for the enjoyment of the American people, that it would actually build up their capital so they could use that accrued capital for other things.

And the American people, by and large, have not had that reaction.

And people are standing up for immigrants in their communities and repulsed by ICE raids and tactics and remembering the names of these people who have been disappeared.

And one of the things that's been heartening to me is to see that the Democratic feedback loop doesn't necessarily work on the administration on these things yet, although I think in some ways it does.

But seeing protesters, seeing community members stand up for immigrants has caused Democrats to start going to the ICE detention facilities and going to these immigration prisons, these otherwise domestic black sites, showing up and saying, we know people are in there and we're here to see them.

And they were banking on us being much more bloodthirsty.

Yeah.

than I think we are.

And I actually think they banked wrong on that.

And it means they've miscalculated their amount of political capital, what it would take to replenish it, and the kind of backlash that they're getting and loss of support that they're having to endure.

I feel like you had the most clarity of our

table family, you know, Chris, me, you, you know, our group, of where the country was, sort of the foul mood democracies were in post-COVID.

And so in a lot of ways, you saw this coming.

Maybe you and Chris, I feel like, maybe saw this as a really distinct possibility.

So in terms of what you were sort of prepared for going into November, what you covered, sort of the body of work of the 100 days, you've done what, five live events.

Like what do you, what do you hear in like what's happening right now that makes you feel good?

The thing that I didn't expect that like really wowed me, that like gave me like a like

a big emotional,

like I had to kind of collect myself moment.

Was I

talked at all the events that I did about protests and about what I was just saying, about people standing up for immigrants in particular.

And at a couple of events, I said, you know, has anybody here done any sort of in-person protest?

Have you gone out and held a sign somewhere?

And a lot of people, you know, applauded.

Yeah, I did.

And I was like, oh, wow, like a significant portion of people.

And I said,

and

when you did that, how did it make you feel?

And the roar of cheers and applause.

Like, I'm getting serious thinking about it right now.

Just this wave of

like,

it like, yes, this felt good.

Yeah.

This was the thing that's happened to me over these hundred days that felt great and made me want to do more of it.

Like, I, you know, standing up and holding a sign and being out in the rain and hoping for people to honk for you and have the hunk not accompanied by a middle finger and all the rest of your life.

Some of it sounds good, some of it doesn't.

But like the overwhelming reaction from people who are saying, like, I, I did, I put my body out there, I, I did something physically and it felt good and I want to do more of it.

That human emotion around that to me is still obviously, as you can see right now,

very moving.

And that, to me, is not just moving at a personal level.

If you look at the political science around what it takes to stop a dictatorship, to stop stop an authoritarian takeover, to retrieve a democracy.

The movement against the authoritarians has to be sustainable and has to grow over time.

And the way you do that is you make protest and opposition not only expected and protected, but fun and satisfying and joyful and cathartic, more or less.

I mean, cathartic can be good and bad.

But I do think that we're seeing that.

I think that people who are are standing up against Trump and this movement are being rewarded for it, both externally and internally.

And I think that means that sort of all systems go in terms of how big the resistance can get, how sustained it can be, and how broad it might ultimately get.

I mean, when we see protests in

you know, Idaho and Alabama and Texas and Little Radio.

I think I saw them on your show.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And when you see that over, and it's not just one,

it's over and over again.

That's telling you something about not only how big it is already, but how big it might get.

We're going to sneak in a quick break here.

When we come back, we'll have more with Rachel Maddow.

Back in a moment.

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Hey, best people listeners.

Join me on October 11th live in New York City.

I will be joined by Martin Sheen at MSNBC Live 25.

For a live taping of the Best People podcast, go to msnbc.com slash live25.

When you buy tickets to the morning session, just type in promo code BEST20 for a special 20% off discount.

See you on October 11th.

I miss you on every night.

And

like a lot of people,

I love your coverage of the protests.

And I mean, I think I said this to you privately.

We'll never know who watched your show and saw people in the next town doing it.

And so went out and did it in her town and brought her kids, right?

I mean, it's the whole reason to be, you know, why two podcasts.

Like.

People need to feel connected to you and to hear the longer thoughts, I think, without the commercial breaks.

And I wonder how you feel your coverage of the protests is part of that circuit of people feeling like they're doing something that they're doing in the next town and the next town and the next town and the next.

I mean, I guess you're right that

you never know what effect it has to know that other people are doing something.

Like, does that make you more less likely to do it?

I don't know.

But for me, the reason that I started to cover the protests early on is that I felt like we need to do all we can to take the temperature of the people in this moment because it's the, it's not the Democratic Party and it's not Joe Biden and it's not the pundit class that's going to make the decision here about whether or not we accede to this takeover.

Right.

It's going to be the people and where are the people at?

Well, hey, look.

Like I think the very first thing I covered was that it was somewhere in New England and it was still snowy, like it was January still, I think.

Like some,

you know, it's always little old ladies who start it because they they are the pulsing, beating heart of American democracy.

Yes.

Turned up at a Tesla charging station in some little town in New England.

And it was the first protest that I think we covered.

The first thing that I think I had seen, certainly the first one focused on Elon Musk and Tesla.

And it made me wonder, like, oh, right, there's Tesla infrastructure, Tesla charging stations and Tesla dealerships and stuff.

everywhere all over the country.

And that's a potential locus locus for people without having to travel to a government site.

Like, where are Tesla charging stations?

They're like at convenient interchanges.

You know, there are places that are easy for people to get to.

Like, those could be a locus for people to

show themselves in terms of how they're feeling here.

And so we should start looking around and seeing that.

And I remember the first day, like, just coming across a headline that somebody had done something and then just Googling to figure out, had there been any other things like this?

And there was like one other person that had been like personally parading around a trick charging station somewhere in California.

And then we just started looking for it.

And then, like, as I was looking for these things and we started covering these things, it's like thing of note in terms of where people are at, they just started mushrooming.

And I think it's just a matter of noticing.

I mean, I mean, tell me about how your news gathering, like your story selection stuff has changed over this time.

So I think, right, like Insanity is doing the the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.

So I tried to really critically examine what I've been doing and think about what I could do differently.

I really, really did.

I also thought, I mean, I was, I'm very inspired by your looking at the country.

Like, I think that as an ex-Republican who wanted to sort of mollusk myself onto a different party to solve all the problems, like that's like, I think we're in almost a post-political party moment.

It is the people are going to decide.

We're going to have to decide what world we want for our kids and for the next generation.

And so I know a lot of Trump voters.

I live, I have a, I have a politically divided family.

And I never really bought that it was the price of eggs.

Like I really, you know, methinks, methinks it's more than the price of eggs, but let's see.

But I, I

was fixated ahead of the election on the public ambivalence of the titans of business, the kinds of people that our colleague Steph Rule, you know, can get on the phone easily.

I don't know those people, but I brushed up against some of them when I was in politics.

And

I was disgusted and fixated on their sort of sitting it out.

And I felt angry at people with all this power and people who Trump still cared about, right?

Like Trump revealed himself to really not give a shit about the press this time, which is kind of fascinating.

You know, in terms of a funnel, the thing that affects everyone.

I think it's sort of the state of the federal government.

And I've done a ton on Doge, on USAID.

I mean, I know having worked for a Republican president that the people inside the federal government are desperate for the federal government to be more efficient.

You want to find the efficiency hawks?

You know where they are?

They're the goddamn federal workers themselves.

They hate that they have to like put everything in writing because their computers aren't up to.

I mean, the people who most want the federal government to be more efficient are the federal workers.

So I always knew that like that was bullshit and that that was like a pretext for doing something sinister because there's no friction between the federal workforce and efficiency.

They want it too.

But the other thing is the economy.

And so I have always looked at economic journalism as like this thing so exotic to me.

I don't understand it.

I don't know who the people are.

I would be embarrassed.

You know, I'd be more comfortable like interviewing LeBron James than Steve Leesman.

Like I know more about what LeBron does than Steve.

But I decided like I am going to have to do this thing because the economy, I am told by

our colleague Steve Kernaki and others that like, this is what decided the election.

And it turns out the people who are going to be the most humiliated by Donald Trump 2.0 are the people who voted for him for the price of eggs.

The people he is screwing over the most royally are the men in the manosphere who associated their buying power with our politics.

The people who are going to be most emasculated are the men in the manosphere who felt like Joe Biden's economy didn't make them feel big enough or good enough because they're the people who aren't going to be able to pick up the tab at their kids' baseball tournament weekend.

And that makes men and women feel like shit.

And the fact that he's lied to a new segment of civic society, the economy, he lied to the markets.

He lied to the businesses.

He lied to the economy voters is to me tragic and so on brand and just brings more people into the boat rowing toward truth and democracy.

So I've covered how Trump's lies and his tariff war have impacted business and the economy and prices in a way that I was really never that interested in the first term.

I think part of why I got reelected is people were like, well, I may not like anything he does, but man, my savings will go up or my salary will go up.

And it's sad to see all those voters humiliated and harmed.

But it to me does feel like a new part of the Trump story.

Do you think there's any turning around in terms of the business world?

Like one of the things I've been thinking about with the law firms, for example, right?

The capitulating law firms is that I feel like the best outcome there would be for those law firms to acknowledge what they and everyone could plainly see, which was this was a mistake, and for them to get out of those deals and change their mind and instead fight Trump.

Like, I want them to, I don't want them to self-immolate.

You know, like, I don't want them to be, I don't want them to be ended to make them pay for what they did.

I want them to change course.

Same thing with like Columbia, you know, or like other capitulating entities.

Like what I, I think the,

from a small D Democratic perspective, I think what you hope is like, oh, I'm, you, you made the wrong call, but look, there is is room for you to cross back over.

Same with Trump voters, frankly.

Like

you made a call for whatever reason, you're not inherently a bad person or outside the realm of the civilized for having done that.

Like, come let us reason together, brother.

If you recognize that you were wrong there, there's room for you here.

Cross over and let's make a new future together.

Is that the one entity that I don't know how to think about there, though, is business?

Because, like, I don't know, do we,

I sort of feel like what the business guys have done, what the business world has done is decide that they want to be part of Trump's authoritarian rule.

Like they want to be, they want the spoils of what an authoritarian dictatorship style government can loot the American public and the American economy and they want it for themselves.

And that's...

If that's what the business capitulation is about, and it's not the same as the universities and the law law firms and Trump voters, then maybe there isn't room for the kind of sort of mercy and

U-turn that I'm hoping for from those other elements.

What do you think?

I don't think it comes from them, right?

Like, I think they ascended because they were good at making money for.

whoever, I don't know, I don't know, like their shareholders, investor,

the lexicon of them, right?

So like they run their companies and I'm done like waiting for heroes.

But I do think to bring it back to how we ended up with Trump, he branded himself as something.

And I think they branded themselves as something.

And I think we are where you think we are, right?

I think we went over the cliff.

And I actually think the worst brand in three years for a law firm trying to recruit, I mean, all the law firms are going to want the smartest law students, right?

Like that's not going to change.

Where are the smartest law students going to want to go?

Are they going to want to go to a firm that did a bullshit deal on Truth Social with an autocratic leader?

A handshake deal to do with nothing else.

Not even a handshake.

Not even like The truth, like a post on a medium that may not even exist.

Like there might not even, where would you even search the archives in 15 years?

And you had to work it out with Boris.

You had to work out.

I know Boris.

Like he's got to be like, had this happen to me?

Like I'm the guy doing the deals on True Social that brought America's legal profession to its knees.

Holy cow.

The guy who was pushed out of the transition, this transition

for allegedly charging people cash money to get appointments in the Trump administration.

By the Senate.

It's so banana.

So like, I don't think that we're going to be saved by Brad Karp, but I do think that the freshman law students at Columbia and Harvard, I don't even, whatever the best laws, I think they're going to solve it for us when they graduate.

And Brad Karp's like, come work for us.

And they're like, hell no.

I'm going to go work for Perkins Cooey, who didn't fold like a cheap tent.

And I think that the brands that survive and the brands that thrive being associated with democracy has to become part of it.

But do the business guys come too?

I don't know.

I mean,

I think that's up to them.

I think if their bet is that capitalism thrives in an autocracy, like we should go on a field trip.

Like where?

Where does that happen?

And like, here's the other thing that I feel like you had to be a political reporter to explain to a business leader.

Like, so you do everything.

It's like the law firms.

You do everything Trump wants and you think you're safe.

When has appeasement worked?

Point to a time in human history when appeasement has worked for a country, for a political party, for a person, for an institution.

And if you can, then knock yourself out, appease for us all you want.

But there's no example of it working.

And the reason it doesn't work is because I don't even think Trump likes the appeasers.

I think he thinks they're weak.

Yes, exactly.

Like, I can't, I'm sort of, I want to fast forward a little bit to see what he ends up doing to Marco Rubio.

Oh, you know what I mean?

Marco Rubio is unbelievable.

And the fact that he's up there fighting for things that he's championed against is so, I mean, and look, he's almost a character from Ultra, right?

I mean, like, he's almost like a character from like how fascism happens, right?

It's not just the wannabe strong space man or strong man one word.

It's the Marco Rubios.

And like, I wonder how you see him with all of your sort of study of history.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

I, I feel like the thing that I'm worst at in our type of politics and news coverage is human psychology, just because I'm a weirdo.

Like, I don't know anybody.

I don't, like, you're my friend, but I don't know anybody else, Nicole.

Um, and so, like, you liked the COVID lockdown.

I'm the only person who was like, it's over.

You were happy when you got it again.

You're like, I'll see you guys in 10 days.

I'm not going to elaborate on my answers to that because it'll be too revealing.

But yeah,

I am a hermit.

And so the idea that I like, I don't, like, I, I, I don't know what lurks in his heart and I don't know what's going on in his mind, but I do know that there are a lot of people like him in history who had a path to political power and to some degree to personal glory based on purported values or at least performance of purported values.

And then then when they realized that there was some sort of force taking over in politics that could sort of vaunt them up a few steps without them having to do the work themselves, they just jettisoned everything that had purportedly been their values before and instead leached onto the new power.

And that's just, there's a lot of people like that in history.

And there's a reason we don't remember their names.

It's because they become irrelevant.

They're vessels that are then used by authoritarians for as long as they're convenient and then they're humiliated and discarded.

And so I think what's going on with Marco Rubio is, among other things, I think it's the end of his ascendance.

Like who would ever have voted for Marco Rubio before that would vote for Marco Rubio now?

Right.

Like there's no, there's no future of in electoral politics, at least for Rubio.

And because he's not,

because of the way he came up, because

they used him to do all the dirtiest work, they clearly don't see a real future for him.

When Trump said that thing about like, oh, Rubio might be the 2028 candidate, really?

Raise your hand if you think that was for real.

Right.

It's not going to happen.

J.D.

Vance on his toes.

Yeah.

God.

So I just,

yeah, I can't say it's sad because Rubio is doing so much damage.

I mean, there's going to be so many deaths on the ledger under the State Department and USAID.

Just the toll, the human toll of what he will have not just acceded to, but accelerated with his, his playing a role in it, is going to be something that will go down in history just in terms of the body count.

So

I don't feel sad, but I do feel like we can stop worrying about Marco Rubio's political trajectory.

Like, this is it.

It's done.

I mean, I would add Ukraine to it, like that he, he sat in there while Trump ambushed and humiliated.

President Zelensky, when Rubio wasn't just someone who McConnell had to bring along on like Ukraine aid, he He was a champion for Zelensky.

I mean, what they did to Zelensky is,

you know, literally switched sides in the middle of a war.

I don't know that the country

ever recovers from that damage that they've done.

Yeah.

It's also been, I feel like,

I don't really know what to make of this.

Warning, I'm about to mention the name Putin.

Sorry.

I'm about to hear it comes.

Everybody brace yourself.

And that's weird to hear me say it.

But

like to see Trump

so abjectly and publicly humiliated by Putin over and over and over again around the Ukraine stuff, like, oh, stop it in 24 hours.

And Vladimir, stop this.

And, you know, there must be a ceasefire before talks.

Oh, no, you want talks first?

Okay, talks first then.

You know, doing the multiple calls, right?

Personally doing the calls, sending Steve Witkoff over and over in there again.

Like eventually Putin's going to have Witkoff jumping out of a cake, you know, or dancing or something.

I mean, it's like, it's,

I mean, it's just, it's so, it's so humiliating,

especially with Witkoff is a personal emissary of Trump that they keep just making him go over there and just sit there for hours just praising Putin over it with nothing to show for it.

And then all they do is.

get themselves deeper and deeper and deeper into both Kremlin talking points and the Kremlin's point of view.

Like it's just.

As they're like slaughtering civilians in Ukraine.

Yeah.

But to have

Trump personally and the Trump administration just laid low by Putin just running rings around him and just playing him over and over and over again.

It's just really discordant with the way that Trump is trying to present himself to his own party as this dominant figure who gets everything that he wants, no matter how outrageous, and the way that he's trying to portray himself to other countries.

You know, bring me treasure or I'll ruin your economy.

You know, like bring me a jet, bring me a golf deal, bring me whatever.

But also the way that he presents himself to the American people.

And there's this like very, very stark divide between the way that he's letting Putin play him on Ukraine and what he needs politically to look at himself in the mirror and also to pull off all the gambits that he's pulling off with regard to this sort of strongman cosplay stuff.

So I don't, I don't know where that goes because I'm assuming that Putin is as sadistic sadistic as he seems, both at a personal level and at a political level.

And I'm assuming that the way he's humiliating Trump is just whether appetite for more.

And so, I'm assuming this is just going to get worse and worse and worse.

But I don't know where it ends because it has to end somewhere, right?

Next up for us, we'll have much more of my conversation with my dear friend and colleague, Rachel Maddow.

Stay right here.

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I mean, so I've watched Trump sort of break up with Netanyahu, and it's just put a question mark over the Trump-Putin relationship, which seems different and deeper and so reflexive.

Like,

it's clear that the Netanyahu relationship was good for Trump when he thought Netanyahu was more Trumpy.

And I wonder about the Putin-Trump relationship.

One, if Trump knows

that the world is laughing at Trump, that Putin isn't even trying to, like, Putin used to flatter him.

He's now publicly humiliating him, as you said.

I wonder, I mean, like, who's going to tell Trump?

Like, Rubio won't.

Maybe Vance would to weaken Rubio to say the way.

I mean, I don't know how Trump finds out that on Russian state TV, they're laughing at Trump.

And that in the American media.

Correct.

Trump is getting laughed at here.

Like every headline is Trump gets played by Putin again.

Right.

Like he's, it's not the narrative he wants.

Correct.

And I wonder, like, one, how hermetically sealed is Trump's information flow?

Like, the PDB has been moved over to Tulsi Gabbard's office.

They're trying to fire the people who work for Trump and Ratcliffe and Tulsi Gabbard and wrote the real intelligence about Venezuela's tide to trending.

Right.

Like, I wonder if Trump knows that Putin's laughing at him is what I'm trying to say.

Well, I'm assuming that Putin is, I mean, directing him in some way, like when they're on the phone together.

Like, why would you know Trump sends the last call was like two hours plus on the phone with Putin and he gets off the call and he's like, I have incredible news.

I have a big announcement.

We are Putin is going to still do the thing he said he was going to do.

Let the discussions commence or whatever.

It's like it's like at a princess bride.

I mean, it's like, it's like so cartoonish.

I mean, I just think that that humiliation of Trump, that, and, and, and, I think we've seen enough of Putin in these 25 years that he's been in power to know that it doesn't get better with Putin, right?

Like he's going, his humiliation of Trump is going to get more and more abject.

Correct.

Um, and that is going to be a problem for Trump domestically.

Um, and I don't know, I don't think he can break up with Putin.

Um, and I don't think he can stand up to him.

And I don't know, I feel like that's a I feel like there's some breaking points that I'm watching for.

That is one of them.

I'm watching for a breaking point in terms of

government revenue.

One of the tariffs thing that's going on is that, like, we're not bringing in a lot of money from the tariffs, it is not replacing the internal revenue service with an external revenue service.

But meanwhile, they have broken the internal revenue service, and so tax receipts are going to go way down.

Um, I think there's a there's a uh just a fiscal reckoning coming in terms of Trump blowing up the means by which the U.S.

government funds itself.

Like that's going to have a consequence.

And I think that the opposition to Trump broadening, deepening, and becoming bigger and ever more sustainable and mainstream, all of those things are all pushing against him in a way that feels like he doesn't have an answer for.

And that seems good.

And politically unsustainable.

Like it fuels the people protesting.

It fuels the opposition politicians.

I mean, I think one of the things from Ultra and from Prequel is that when the judiciary ends up with too much in its

it's not made to hold up a democracy, right?

Like the judiciary isn't there to fight fascism.

The judiciary is there to enforce the rule of law.

But fascistic movements also try to annihilate the rule of law.

And I wonder, you know, I've covered the judges, and I've always been careful to say they're not pushing back against Trump.

They're simply articulating that which is illegal.

And so, in a court of law, when they have done something of questionable legality, they are pressing the government to answer the questions about that which may or may not be legal.

That's it.

And it feels like pushback because for a while, in terms of sort of public life, because Congress is off the because Republican-led Congress is sort of off the field.

I wonder how you sort of look at the courts right now.

I think it's a

good point about like how much can the how, oh, what was that?

I don't know what that was.

There's a Putin.

He heard us talking about his favorite gals in the U.S.

Loner.

Stop that.

Take your shirt off, lad.

We've both broadcast that shirtless picture in the horse.

Are you kidding?

My fave.

Thank God.

Thank God the Trump versions of those are AI generated and not real.

I'm just saying.

Because we'd have it no other way, right?

That's the whole reason we need AI.

Jesus.

Totally.

Usher it in.

But the courts having too much to bear and the criminal justice system in particular being asked to do more than its share is important.

But I also feel like, you know, again, I go back to the public, not the punditocracy and not the media and not the political class at all, but just the public.

The last New York Times polling on,

you know, should the president have to obey an order from the Supreme Court was like 76 to 6.

Say 80-20.

Yeah.

I mean,

it's like 90-10.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's no one who thinks he should ignore the Supreme Court.

Exactly.

No one.

Like maybe Stephen Miller and his family.

I don't know.

That is really important because

they've rushed.

Like you said at the beginning, like Orban and Putin didn't move this fast.

I think the Trump movement, you know, the Stephen Millers and Russell Vogt and Heritage Foundations and J.D.

Vance's of the world, they studied the authoritarian playbook and they knew what they had to do fast.

And they have decided that like in the first six months in particular, in the first 180 days, they need to go as far as humanly possible, get as far as...

can be imagined and then spend a lot of the rest of the time defending that ground and taking more.

But in that rush, which makes sense in some ways, they've done all of these things that have already broken their relationship with the public.

So Trump is not only underwater in terms of his overall approval, he's more underwater in his overall approval than any other president at this time in his hundred days.

He's underwater on every single issue.

He's even underwater on immigration, which is supposed to be his political capital.

He's deeply, deeply, deeply underwater on everything related to the economy.

And he's acting so illegally over such a broad swath of territory that the courts are stopping almost everything he's trying to do domestically, which puts him in the position, if he wants to continue to try to push, of having to defy court orders, which will break his relationship with the American public almost entirely, almost entirely, down to low-to-mid single digits in terms of who supports him in doing that.

Yeah.

So, okay, like that's important in terms of thinking about how much political ground he has to maneuver.

I mean, he started already, you know, they arrested a judge.

They arrested a mayor.

They threatened to arrest the governor of Wisconsin, Tony Evers, which nobody noticed, but that happened.

They arrested a member of Congress, LaMonica MacIver, have now started a criminal investigation into a candidate, Andrew Cuomo, against their wholly owned New York City mayor, Eric Adams.

And so they've started the, you know, arresting the opposition stuff and arresting people in the other types of civic life.

That is also something that they shouldn't, I think, on their political timeline, shouldn't be doing until much later on.

Having to do that, having to start arresting their opponents, you know, clearing the deck so that Janine Pirro can start indicting sitting members of Congress, which I'm expecting soon.

That is something that is going to kind of, I think, push people to like a very clear understanding of the radicalness of what's going on earlier than they probably would want.

So them going fast, I understand, but them going fast, they're breaking too many things to be able to hold on to the public.

And when they are operating in opposition to the public, which I know they're comfortable doing at a certain level, it just shortens the amount of time they can do it before the people take it back.

How much of your day can you spend thinking about all that?

Like, do you, do you have to say, like, like you've seen around the corners of this, I mean, you were nominated for an Emmy for the Lev Doc, right?

Like, like, you know, the Trump story inside and out.

You know, the history of fascistic movements in our country inside and out.

Like, there's just stuff that you see coming that you know what's going to happen next.

Like, is there a point in your day where you're like, oh, okay, I can't look back and I can't look at right now.

I have to go fishing.

Well, it would be better if I did more of that.

I'm trying to be better at that.

I have, I mean, there's a reason that I stopped doing five days a week and it's because I just, it, it breaks, I was breaking down a few years ago.

And going back and doing it for 100 days was the right thing to do.

I have no regrets about doing it.

I'm glad I did it, but I, it broke me again.

Like I'm, I've been sick since I stopped doing it.

Yeah.

The person who does my makeup for the show was away this past Monday and I had to do my own makeup, which is a disaster on a good day.

But I'm sick and I was covered in hives.

So I had to do my own makeup while I was covered in hives.

I wore a crew neck shirt for the first time in the turtle neck.

Yeah, yeah.

I've had to do my own makeup.

And it's like, I remember my, my son and my husband were like, is the beige stuff supposed to show?

And I was like, no, the beige stuff.

Can you see the beig stuff?

Like, so my dream, my son and my husband were like, maybe go rub in the beige.

Like, we're not good at

it.

But me trying to do it like while sick and like while trying to put it all together, like, I remember, I like, oh, right.

And so I can't, I real, like I can't, I can't do five days, um, but I can do Mondays and I am working on a book and a play and a TV show and a new podcast and like all of that stuff.

Like I don't do any less work.

I just can't get the show in the air every day.

Um, and I'm just trying to be helpful, you know?

I think that

Like in terms of what I'm watching for, I do feel like there's really good reporting and storytelling to be done.

If people can just stop

paying so much attention to the White House

and start paying attention, A, to the country and the people's response to what's going on in politics, people's rejection of what he's doing, A,

B, start paying attention to the self-dealing and corruption and criminality that's part of every authoritarian government, including this one.

I think that's important in terms of where we're going in the news.

But in terms of the damage that he's doing,

I think there is a quickly coming catastrophe.

I'm worried about what they may feel tempted to do in terms of the integrity of government numbers on economic indicators.

Data, right?

You change the statistics, you change the numbers, and people don't know.

It's happening.

Bing Gupta, who we get to work with, sent me a note today about how people are threatened by diseases and dying of diseases.

And because of the changes in the numbers at CDC, we won't know.

Exactly.

And you did that story very early in the 100 days.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And

I feel like the places where the impact of what they're doing is most disastrous is the place where they're going to feel the most pressure to fudge the numbers to change what should be unimpeachable government statistics on these things.

And so I'm worried about that.

The Social Security story stands alone to me in terms of the risk of Americans being killed, people dying, and people having their lives irretrievably ruined.

Because if you're dependent on your Social Security income, which so many millions of Americans are, that getting janked up with what they've done to the Social Security Administration immediately puts people at risk who are in a position of frailty and whose lives we may not know about as they are put in real danger.

So I'm really,

really worried about that.

And I'm worried about the use of the military on U.S.

soil, what they're doing across that swath of the border across three states.

We've got a concentration camp effectively in El Salvador, and they're doing all these weird deals to stash people in all sorts of other parts of the world.

But I think that the threat of sort of mass internment here is, you know, something that has to loom for all of us, if you know anything about history and the way that they're trying to blame immigrants for

everything.

So, you know, all that stuff, I just feel like there's so much work to do in terms of prepping people for what to watch for, what to learn from history, what to know about the legalities, what to know about the way to fight back, how to recognize when it's happening.

I'm really heartened by the American people not being fooled by the targeting of immigrants as if it's something separate that doesn't apply to all of us.

I'm really heartened by the pushback.

I'm really heartened by people changing their minds about this guy.

I'm really heartened by his lack of public approval on literally anything he's doing.

And I'm heartened by Democrats showing their capacity to learn and to follow the sort of leadership of the people.

There's so much to be, I think, inspired by right now.

Like,

I feel not exhausted.

I feel really, really energized.

I mean, you and I talked a lot, right?

You went out and did 100 days and I was like, what should I do?

Right.

So this is sort of hatched in those conversations that we had.

And no one is cynical and no one is checked out.

And I think that the right does a number on people with platforms feeling like, well, no one wants to hear from me.

And it's no one wants to be told what to do.

But I think everyone wants to be connected to other people who see the survival of our democracy as the vital first, second, and third mission of our time, right?

Like, what do we want to leave behind?

And I keep thinking of your interview with Liz Cheney, where she's like, I want to come back, Rachel, fight with you about taxes.

But right now we have to save our economy.

And I, and I think about that interview and I think about this moment.

And I think about the first time I met you was after I'd written my first novel.

And it was after Sarah Palin had thrown me under the bus.

And I sort of realized that everything I'd been a part of,

not everything, but a lot of what I'd been a part of wasn't what I thought it was.

And this thing that you're describing about Trump voters, like people say, how does it end?

It ends when there's space given for people to say, yeah, I thought I liked what he was doing, but it was, it was a lie.

And I, and I decided at the end of the day, I want to pass a democracy on because in an autocracy, you know, children that are sick don't have the benefit of science.

I mean, pediatric cancer research is what they cut, right?

And I feel like I haven't even started to figure out how to tell those stories.

But your sort of curiosity and faith in what you're seeing in the country, I think has totally infected the whole network and all of your peers.

And

it's so important.

I mean, I've said this to you, you know, without a camera on, but at a time when everyone was sort of looking to

who's going to sort of hold the flashlight?

Like, I don't even know that we're going to get out of this moment, right?

We're over the cliff and we'll see what happens.

This is fair way.

Who's going to hold the flashlight?

And so the way, not just holding the flashlight, but like everyone you shine it on, it's, it's everything.

Well, you too, my dear.

I mean, you're holding down much more than your share of the fort.

A friend sent me a meme the other day.

It was like a Paddington meme and it was the caption was, born to Dilly Dally,

forced to fight fascists.

Really?

You had me at Dilly Dally and then you sort of woke me back up with the fascist.

Like I'm born to to dilly like what i really want to be doing is like poking around in the national archives you know for like random justice department prosecutors who got fired for controversial reasons you and the micro fiche right you want to go in there i want to be doing that but we've we've you know you meet the moment but i also you know it is a it is a not just a responsibility but blessing totally to be alive in a moment when your country needs you and for you and i to have the kinds of jobs where we get to offer a microphone to other people,

tell stories that maybe wouldn't otherwise get told to elevate narratives and predicaments and characters and dramas that might help people understand what's going on because we have the editorial freedom to do so and we have a free press and we are freaking using it.

You know, we are in a really important moment and we're an important place in it.

And I'm glad that we're there together.

I said that to one of our bosses.

She called to check in and I said, you know, I'm just going to wring the heck out of the First Amendment as long as we have it.

I'm good.

I'm good.

I'm going to rock this, you know, free press as long as we've got one.

Like, yeah, let's do this.

But it does feel more precious when threatened.

I mean, you talk to other people in other countries who are fighting these kinds of things and they're like, they're so jealous with what we have.

You know, you have a, it's legal to be in the opposition party.

It's legal to run for office.

It's legal to get in the air and say what you want to say.

Right.

You have a free press and you have access to courts and we have so much to work with and we just are in a moment when we're not taking it for granted.

Thank you for doing this.

I know how busy you are.

I know the pull of the microfiche and now you're

we love you.

Love you, darling.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you so much for listening to the best people.

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