Jim Bakker’s Christian Disneyworld: Heritage USA with Gianmarco Soresi and Mackenzie Barmen | 65

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Jim Baker, one of the biggest televangelists of the 1980s, is at the top of a hotel looking over his amusement park, Heritage USA.

It's kind of a Christian Disney World.

It's dawn.

The sun's just rising.

From up here, Jim can see the water park, the miniature train, the amphitheater where they put on a show reenacting the crucifixion.

Praise the Lord, Heritage USA is huge.

2,300 acres with all kinds of attractions and rides, horseback riding, the world's biggest wave pool, and also Bible study.

It is a Christian theme park, after all.

But Jim's not satisfied.

He wants to go bigger.

So he comes up with a plan.

On his TV show, he's going to start asking for people to send him money directly to help build some new additions to the park, like a heaven and hell themed roller coaster and a replica of historical Jerusalem.

In return, they'll get a lifetime pass to stay in Heritage USA's hotel.

And if he's got all that money coming in, nobody will notice if he spends a little of it on himself, right?

Jim touches the gold cross at his neck and checks his Rolex.

It's almost time to head to the studio to record the latest episode of his show.

A new car here, some fancy clothes there.

There, he deserves nice things.

And it's not like anybody's ever going to find out.

Definitely not all the people who send in donations to help build the park, and definitely not the IRS.

Hallelujah.

It's going to be another beautiful day at Heritage USA.

For years, Jim Baker's devoted audience showered him with millions of dollars.

The story of the country's most powerful televangelist caught up in a sex scandal.

Jim Baker was found guilty on all 24 counts of wire and mail fraud and conspiracy.

We are

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a sinking ship.

From Wondering and At Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar and messiah of misfires at Don't Cross a Gay Man.

And today we're talking about Heritage USA.

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I am so excited for the two guests that we have with us today.

First, we have an actor, a comedian, my favorite TikToker of all time, and host of Bullshittery.

It's Mackenzie Barman.

Hi, Bestie.

Hey.

Thank you so much for having me.

I'm so happy to be here.

Also, returning to the show is a comedian, an actor, the host of The Downside and most recently named The sexiest comedian of all time.

Named by me, I named him the sexiest comedian of all time.

It's John Marco Seraci.

Hello, thank you.

Let me update my website with that quote right now.

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Before we get into Heritage USDA, let's just like break some ice.

What's your favorite theme park?

Ooh, I, gosh, I think I went to Universal Studios when I was really young and I liked, I like those characters.

I don't like just the mascots where they're hidden.

I like when you see their face and it's like you see the unemployed actor beneath the character and you get to kind of see into their eyes that they also got a callback for that musical you were talking about, but it didn't work out.

And so now they're Batman.

Yeah.

Well, today we're talking about Heritage USA, a theme park that in the 1980s was one of the biggest tourist attractions in the U.S.

Only Disneyland and Disney World were more popular, but it wound up going bust because of the many scandals of its founder, televangelist, Jim Baker.

Jim is born in Michigan in 1940.

His parents are fundamentalist Christians who are so strict they don't even allow their kids to dance.

So think Foot Loose IRL.

So scary.

So as a teenager, Jim wants attention and he wants to be popular.

So even though he can't dance at the sock hops himself, he does find a way to participate.

He becomes the sock hop DJ, playing music for the other kids to dance to.

So it's a loophole, which Jim loves to find to get around rules, as we'll find.

So he goes to Bible College in Minneapolis, where he meets another student who will become his future partner in building a religious entertainment empire and his future wife, her name, Tammy Faye.

And the future part of Future Wife wife is basic technicality because Jim proposes to Tammy Faye while they're on their third date.

Wow.

Damn.

Yeah.

What's the biggest move you ever made on a third date?

Oh my God, on a third date?

I'm slow.

I like wait a year to say love as like a matter of course.

I think you got to take your time.

Wow.

Percolating.

Yeah, me too.

I mean, I don't even know.

I can't even remember the last time I was on a third date.

It's been a while.

I don't know what I would do anymore.

Me and my current fiancé, we got a dog.

What?

Whoa.

It was the pandemic.

We were all a little insane.

Pandemic doesn't count.

Those rules are off the table.

It was the wild, wild west during the pandemic.

It sure was.

But we are engaged in eloping this December.

So it all works.

Congratulations.

Oh, thank you.

I was looking for that.

I was fishing.

So.

Their college actually has a rule against students getting married while school is in session, but that weirdly specific rule does not stop Jim and Tammy Faye.

If they can't be in school and get married, they've got an easy solution.

They drop out.

Of course.

And they get married on April 1st, 1961.

The two spend the early 1960s traveling around the Bible Belt preaching as they do.

And during this time, Tammy Faye also creates a Christian puppet show.

I mean, what better way to teach the gospel to kids from sock hops to sock puppets?

I love that.

Later on, in 1969, Jim and Tammy Faye would actually put out an album of songs based on some of these puppet shows they developed.

So let's take a look at the album art for Jim and Tammy and their friends.

I mean, that hair holds a lot of secrets, and I'm obsessed with the colors.

I would hang this on my wall.

I would.

Can I just say, I'm loving everything about this duo.

I know this is about to take a turn, but like they were rebellious.

They wanted to entertain.

They do puppets.

They're in love.

They drop out of school.

They're the most badass Christian fundamentalists I've ever heard of.

Yeah.

Which one of the puppets is your favorite?

I like the crocodile.

My favorite is that there's two dogs.

but of different universes.

Like two completely different puppet designers.

One is just a dog dog face on nothing, just a brown sleeve.

And the other is a fully fledged dog with a very large head.

It's giving never-ending story, you know?

It's giving never-ending story.

I really like the little sneaky blonde girl who's just kind of hidden there.

Her hair is kind of blending in with the background, but she reminds me of myself.

I like her.

I like her too now.

So, in 1965, Jim and Tammy Faye decide to stop traveling around and they land in Portsmouth, Virginia, where they go to work for the brand new Christian Broadcasting Network, aka CBN.

So Jim and Christian TV, they are a match made in heaven.

It's showbiz and religion combined into one package.

Yes, ma'am.

So he and Tammy Faye host a kid show called Come On Over.

And eventually, Jim works his way up to become the host of CBN's talk show, The 700 Club.

Oh.

Oh,

I've heard of this.

I've heard of this.

My grandparents for sure watched that.

I remember seeing it on the TV all the time.

I don't know anything about it, except I remember an older man's face, I think.

Spooky vibes.

That's all you remember?

That older man's face?

That's all I got.

It could have been your grandpa.

We don't know.

Now, CBN, like many religious networks, are really dependent on donations from its viewers.

One of the things that makes Jim an asset for CBN is that he is particularly good at raising cash.

But in 1972, money leads to a dispute between him and the network.

Executives say he and Tammy Faye have been taking the network's money and spending it on themselves.

No good.

No good.

No.

Just on puppets exclusively?

Or like

we just need better puppets?

We got to give a body to this other dog.

This is a nightmare.

So the Bakers and CBN, they part ways not long after this accusation.

I mean, once you've been accused of stealing from your employer, it makes water cooler conversations a little awkward.

But Jim and Tammy Faye won't be off the air for long.

In 1974, they found their own cable channel, the PTL Network.

Wow.

Can you guess what PTL stands for?

Please be puppets.

Come on, give me puppets.

Puppets talk live.

Ooh, that would have worked.

but no, it's nothing to do with the puppets.

It's praise the Lord.

Oh,

I'm putting that in my Instagram bio.

There is another option of people that love.

Okay.

I wonder if it's like, I've had to name comedy shows sometimes, and you Google it and everything's been done.

Yeah.

Brew ha ha,

the so funny or last laugh.

And I wonder, that must be what it's like for Christians making new shows.

They're like, oh, God, praise be.

And Jesus is the best.

Under his eye.

Under his eye.

Yeah.

So naturally, they have their own show on the network as well.

Why wouldn't you?

It's called The PTL Club, which Jim and Tammy Faye envision as kind of a Christian version of The Tonight Show.

Oh.

Honestly, I would be very curious to see a version of The Tonight Show where Jimmy Fatlin's monologue is all about Adam and Eve and the roots only play hymns.

I think that would be iconic.

But let's take a look at the intro to Jim and Tammy Faye's show.

Come on now, let's have a great big welcome for Jim and Tammy Baker.

Hello, everybody.

Welcome to Heritage USA.

It's nice to have you here.

My, what a wonderful audience.

Nah, this audience would warm you up on a cold, chilly October day.

Oh, boy.

Spooky!

You got the Beetlejuice suit, little stripe action.

Yeah, there was a lot of clapping on one and three in that audience.

It's a really big audience.

That was a big crowd.

Big crowd.

It looks friendly.

This is so something my grandparents would have watched, too.

It's kind of really scary.

Well, the show and the network, they are massive hits.

Those crowds are common for them.

Now, by the way, 1977, they're on over 200 TV stations.

By the middle of the 1980s, the PTL Club becomes the most popular religious show in the U.S., viewed in 13 million households.

Now, PTL is set up as a non-profit, which means Jim and Tammy Faye fund the show by asking viewers to make contributions.

And the viewers are very happy to send Jim their money.

They want to help PTL grow and spread the gospel.

And they think that Jim is spending their cash on charitable projects.

But one of the main reasons people send in money is because they connect with Jim and Tammy on a personal level.

They're emotionally invested in the two of them.

They are the stars.

It's kind of the original parasocial relationship that we've all come to understand.

Whenever you describe it, I go, you mean like Patreon?

I got one of those.

John Marco's like, head to the link in my bio.

When Jim and Tammy ask for money, these people, they pay up.

Because of this connection with their audience, by the end of the 1970s, PTL is bringing in over $1 million

every week.

Whoa.

Damn.

Yeah.

How's that compare to your Patreon?

I know.

I'm about to take a religious turn.

I'll tell you that much.

Hey, maybe you should, honestly.

It's so wild to me.

That's a lot of money for that time.

Right.

This is 70s money.

Oh, my God.

And the people, they don't just send in money.

They're also mailing Jim fur coats, deeds to property, jewelry, literally whatever they've got.

It's amazing.

It's incredible.

They want to meet Jesus at those pearly gates, and this is the way to get in.

So as all of this is going on, Jim and Tammy Face seem to have forgotten the non-part of nonprofit because they're living a life of luxury.

They have a pair of Rolls-Royce's and Ben's, a private jet, and multiple homes.

They even have an air-conditioned doghouse.

Now, I hope my dogs are not in earshot.

I think that's reasonable.

I think that's reasonable.

When asked about this lifestyle in an interview, Jim says, quote, excess and success are close together.

Anyone who is successful has got to be excessive.

I agree.

Yeah, even poet.

What do you think Jesus would say about this philosophy, though?

This is what they all do.

All the preachers, they create a whole religion just based off how actually

it is good to have this much money.

Look good, feel good.

We're created in God's image.

We might as dress in His image, too.

It is insane.

It's insane.

It's insane.

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Staying true to their excess equals success beliefs, Jim and Tammy do the most excessive thing imaginable.

They decide they're going to build their own theme park.

Jim claims the idea for the park came to him in a vision from God, because of course it did.

So what's the idea?

The idea is that this theme park will be a Christian version of Disneyland.

What kind of rides do you think a Christian version of Disneyland would have?

Instead of the Tower of Terror, you got the Tower of Babel.

I think that would work.

Wow.

That's a good one.

Oh, gosh.

Instead of a carousel, it could be like biblically accurate angels, just monstrosity, you know, eyes with the things.

You could ride on all the...

That could be fun.

Instead of a splash mountain, it's you didn't get on Noah's Ark.

Or have a Noah's Ark where it's like the ship, you know, that goes back and forth.

Well, Jim says his theme park will be a place for Christians to go on vacation where they won't be tempted by the devil.

I mean, everybody assumes that there's an actor underneath those Mickey Mouse costumes at Disneyland, but how do you know?

Could be the devil, you know?

Sure.

So Jim and Tammy Faye, they buy 2,300 acres of land in Fort Mill, South Carolina.

That is 20 times the size of Disney World.

And they open up their park, Heritage USA, in 1978.

Let's take a look at an ad for the park.

Come on and share the great and heritage you have.

I realize with religion, it's kind of like the IP that's like it's a public use IP.

Like you can build a theme park based on this whole story that you don't have to pay anyone the rights for, and it's just existed.

So, in a way, if you really, if you view it purely cynically, which I do, it's that you are, you're able to build a theme park and you don't have to pay the rights to anybody.

You don't have to pay the rights to God.

And that's what makes it this thing that won't go away because it has such a, you know, it's like, it's like Mickey Mouse, but you don't have to deal with Disney.

Exactly.

Would this fall under like a church situation where you don't pay taxes on the property?

I'm wondering if they like could evade that.

Look, you saw that church.

They got a little seminar.

Yeah, of course, for sure.

Throw a cross-up.

You know what?

It's free.

Everything's free.

Yeah.

It looked very family friendly.

I like that they told you that it's all year long.

We are open for all four of those seasons.

And the music, though, was saying, We're not boring.

We're here to have a good time.

I was bopping along.

Yeah.

So kudos to them on that.

I mean, this place is truly bonkers.

It is completely over the top.

So the water park alone costs $12 million,

which is like almost $55 million in today's dollars.

It's got a water slide over 50 feet tall and the largest wave pool in the entire world.

You can play tennis and go horseback riding, or you can go to a Bible study retreat or get Christian counseling.

Bible study is, of course, what everyone wants to do when they go to a theme park, right?

Sure.

Yeah.

The park has Bible-themed shops that sell things like crosses, heavenly fudge, and Jesus dolls, you know, the essentials.

Heavenly Fudge.

Heavenly fudge.

Wow.

There's a fake Main Street, a real TV studio where Jim and Tammy Faye do live tapings of their show, and also a daily show with a reenactment of the crucifixion.

Wow, that's

the lowest an actor's got.

You're talking, oh, what did you get?

I'm doing summer stuff.

What are you doing?

I'm reenacting the crucifixion of Christ three times a day.

Come see me crucified, 10, 12, and 1.

Oh, my God.

Insanity.

And they probably didn't even pay the actors.

For sure, a non-union gig.

Terrible.

So the park, despite all of this, is a massive success.

In 1986, Heritage USA is visited by almost 6 million people, and its value is estimated to be somewhere around $180 million.

In 1987, the year I was born, Jim's getting ready to expand even more.

If you thought things were already bonkers, well, just wait till he finishes these new projects.

Construction is underway on a $3 million golf course and a giant sand castle that is going to be the home of the largest Wendy's in the world.

I love it here.

Oh my God.

Jim wants to build a heaven and hell themed roller coaster, a reproduction of the Crystal Palace in London, and a mausoleum that's five stories tall.

He also wants to build a full-scale replica of Jerusalem as it was in the time of Jesus.

Wait, what?

Full scale?

Have either of you been to Jerusalem?

I have.

It's not small.

Oh my gosh.

I'm obsessed with his ambition.

If I had that much ambition in my own career, I would be winning Oscar after Oscar after Oscar.

Like, this is incredible.

I want to see what hell looks like at this roller coaster because, like, how scary is it?

You're, you're usually, you're not supposed to depict it because if you show it, you're like, oh, that's, that's the Jesus actor playing the devil in the bottom part of this roller coaster.

It's not scary at all.

I would have been at the Wendy's for sure.

Oh, 100%.

Yeah.

Well, as the park becomes more and more successful, Jim starts to get, shall we say, creative about ways to make money from it.

In January 1984, on his hit TV show, The PTL Club, Jim announces that for $1,000, people can buy a lifetime partnership that will give them a lifetime pass to stay at the park's grand hotel for three nights every single year.

So it's kind of like an even crummier than usual version of a timeshare.

Now, how popular do you think these partnerships are?

I would have assumed they would have bombed.

Or it's like a gym where you sign up for a gym and then you don't really use it fully.

And then you go, oh my God, we got to get over there.

And then there's too many bookings in December.

I'll say it's popular.

Very popular.

Knowing them and their gumshin, I'm going to say this was a hit.

You'd be correct.

In just three years, from 1984 to 1987, Jim and Tammy Faye make more than $400 million

just from these partnerships.

The money is supposed to be used to continue to build the park, but much of it goes straight into Jim and Tammy Faye's pockets.

Jim and Tammy Faye personally get bonuses of over $3 million each this money.

Basically, Jim and Tammy Faye are treating the park and PTL like their personal piggy bank.

And remember, we're talking serious cash.

There are times when PTL is taking in over $10 million per month.

Amazing.

In 1986, Jim and Tammy's total compensation from PTL is around $1.6 million.

And in addition to their official salaries, PTL also pays for essentially all of Jim and Tammy Faye's expenses.

Their cars, their kids' tutors.

Jim even makes a PTL plumber come to his house to connect a garden hose for him.

Wow, a PTL plumber.

Yeah.

What's the laziest way you've ever gotten out of doing a household chore?

I mean, TaskGrabic can be pretty insane.

Everything that's behind me on this wall was hung up by a Task Grabber.

I think for me, I'm the worst.

Like if I put like pasta in a Tupperware and it gets that little orange ring, I'm not cleaning.

It's tossed.

Yeah.

We're just going to replace.

Yeah.

Yeah.

No chores.

Well, they're able to get away with this because at PTL, no one seems to be keeping track of where all of the money is going.

The attitude seems to be: who needs accounting books when you've got the good book?

They don't do internal audits.

They rarely hold on to receipts and basically have no system for keeping track of how much money is coming in and how much is going out.

PTL has 47 different bank accounts and 17 vice presidents.

My god.

So while all of this is going on, Jim and Tammy Faye are lying to the people who are sending them donations, manipulating them into handing over even more of their money.

In one case, Jim and Tammy Faye tell the PTL faithful that they've given every penny of their life savings to PTL.

And then just a month later, they drop six grand on a house boat.

But a phone call is about to change everything for Jim and Tammy Faye.

And warning, this this is where the story gets dark.

So, listeners, just want to quickly give a trigger warning for sexual assault.

In 1987, Charles Shepard, an investigative reporter for the Charlotte Observer, gets a call from a woman who says that something

happened between her and Jim Baker.

That woman is Jessica Hahn, a former secretary at PTL.

Jessica tells Charles that seven years earlier in 1980, Jim raped her and later paid her $279,000 of PTL's money to keep silent about it.

And there it is.

And there it is.

There it is.

Charles and the Charlotte Observer publish Jessica's story on March 20th of 1987.

In the wake of the news, other televangelists condemn Jim and every single member of PTL's board of directors resigns.

Whoa.

Wow.

I was not expecting that.

They didn't stand by their boy.

No, they did not.

Wow.

He was too successful for too long.

He wasn't connected.

He wasn't paying the favors.

That's surprising.

Yeah.

Wow.

I almost said good for them, but I don't like anyone in this story.

Nothing's really redeeming yet.

Also, shockingly, Jim quickly decides he's not going to be able to weather this storm.

And so he resigns from PTL on the same day the story is published.

Oh my God.

Wow.

He's like, you got me.

Things used to be very different.

These days, it'd be like three days, then kind of a tweet.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then you get a promotion.

Yes.

Yeah.

He'd be running for president.

Jim would be running for president.

He sure would.

But even though he's stepping down, Jim is not taking responsibility for his actions.

Jim disputes the observer's story.

While he admits that he and Jessica had sex, he claims it was consensual.

He also comes up with an elaborate, paranoid-sounding excuse about how the whole thing was a setup to blackmail him and bring him down.

And of course, even in this situation, Jim's not going to miss a chance to appear on TV.

Three days after he resigns, PTL airs a statement from him and Tammy.

Let's watch.

It was seven years ago that a situation happened when Tammy and I were having a marriage problem.

I did not have an affair, a love affair.

Tammy and I were having difficulty in our marriage, and

I got some idea in my heart that I could make Tammy jealous and somehow win her back to my love.

I made a mistake.

It was wrong.

But it was nothing like what has been discussed in the papers.

And

I confessed my sins, and they're under the blood of Jesus Christ.

Tammy, come on girl.

And she just sits there and what I'm what's a girl to do, you know?

I'm like sympathizing with her and I'm like, no, no, you're bad too.

She's also bad.

Yeah, well

that poor cat is like, yeah,

please, I do not want to be associated with this at all.

This is so embarrassing.

Let me go.

Oh my gosh.

But he said, I did not have an affair.

And then he said, I made a mistake.

Like, what is it?

What did did you do?

So, in record time, Jim resigns.

And when he does, he hands the reins of PTL over to Jerry Falwell.

Jerry is another televangelist and the founder of the Moral Majority, a conservative, religious, political group that helped get Ronald Reagan elected.

Ooh, cool, cool, cool.

But if his name is familiar to you, it's most likely because you've heard about him making sexist and homophobic remarks.

It's a weird coincidence that so many of these people who are in charge of these Christian TV networks have such awful, hateful views.

I know.

It's a wild thing.

Yeah.

Why do you think Jim would pick Jerry to step in?

Just paying him, giving him some money in the back end?

Could be.

I don't know.

Similar name.

It's not too much of a shift, you know?

Close.

Another white guy, televangelist.

Yeah.

Another J.

Who knows?

But if there's one positive thing you can say about Jerry, unlike Jim, he seems to at least be able to balance a checkbook.

And when Jerry takes over, his first order of business is to look into PTL's finances, and what he discovers is not good.

Jim's mismanagement has led to things being in a dire financial situation.

Around this time, PTL is running a deficit of $3 million

a month.

I mean, they got to remember to keep the door shut on that air-conditioned dog house.

Those bills got to be crazy.

That's a big light bill, too.

2,800 acres to light, you know?

Yeah.

Heaven and hell probably has a lot of lights.

Big bills.

Now, this financial trouble translates to bad news for Heritage USA.

And a lot of those big construction projects that Jim had planned are put on hold.

It's not cheap to build the world's largest Wendy's.

I mean, the money you have to spend on bacon for baconators alone is astronomical.

And think of all the sand.

Also, think about like they tried building that Heaven and Hell roller coaster.

You have to start with hell.

It's on the bottom floor.

And then suddenly that's all you got built is just hell.

It's coming real scary.

Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups?

Probably so they never slip from her hands.

Could you imagine I'd lose it?

Luckily, Reese's has thought about that.

Wonder what else they think about?

Probably chocolate and peanut butter.

Well, in May, just two months after Jim's resignation, PTL reveals that it's almost $70 million in debt.

And also, $92 million of the group's money simply cannot be found.

Oh my God.

Maybe if he checked the couch cushions for some missing change, but it's not only money that's missing.

A 1939 Rolls-Royce worth almost $70,000 that was supposed to be on the grounds of Heritage has somehow gone missing too.

Can't imagine what happened to the Rolls.

Jerry says that PTL needs to raise $7 million in just over two weeks if they're going to survive.

And his plan to raise this money depends on a stunt at Heritage USA.

He says that if 1,000 people donate $1,000 each for a total of $1 million, he'll go down the Heritage USA water slide wearing a suit.

Take my money.

It's like, if you've heard of the 700 Club, how about the 1,000 Club?

Let's just keep coming up with things.

Raise the stakes, people.

I would have liked if it was like a different outfit down the slide, but, you know,

a suit is fine.

It works, though.

Jerry eventually raises a whopping $22 million,

and he does, in fact, go down that water slide on PTL.

And yes, we do have a clip of this water slide stunt.

Let's take a look.

Excellent.

I'm ready.

Go for it.

I'm ready.

That's how people should be baptized.

You want Christianity to come back in vogue?

Baptize on a water slide.

That's fun.

Oh, I loved his reaction to the cold water.

Like, that was incredible.

Oh, it's cold.

I know.

I need to, we need to do that in a bit.

It's entertaining.

I don't know what to to say.

If you take everything else away, you just go, wow, it's just a struggling theme park.

Guy trying to put it back together.

But then underneath, oh, it's tough.

I liked it.

I liked it.

Well, even though Jerry's fundraising is a success, things are still very much rocky at PTL.

There aren't enough water slides in the world for him to raise the money that they need.

And the situation is only going to get worse.

In May of 1987, the IRS starts looking into PTL's situation.

They're curious about some of the very fancy items that Jim and Tammy Faye have been buying for themselves with PTL and Heritage USA money.

Money that, if you'll recall, was supposed to be used to build a park and were thought to be charitable donations.

The way that Jim and Tammy Faye spent the money only counts as charity if your definition of charity isn't giving food to the hungry, but instead is buying luxury goods for rich liars.

Now, some of the items that Jim and Tammy Faye bought for themselves include, and let me take a deep breath before I start listing everything,

a condo in Palm Beach worth almost $600,000, a Gucci briefcase worth $800, a Gucci pen worth $120.

I didn't even know that Gucci made pens, $67,000 worth of women's clothing, an almost $12,000 flight on a private jet so that Jim and Tammy Faye can see their marriage counselor, and a vacation to Hawaii.

Wow.

Listen, it's clear they needed that marriage counselor.

And that's the one I'm going to defend.

There's a lot going on.

I'll excuse that.

But a vacation to Hawaii, what?

We're too good to vacation at our own theme park.

Come on, Jim.

I know.

Not a good luck.

Now, if you were someone that donated your hard-earned coins to these people, how would you feel about this lavish spending?

I imagine pissed, but these folks, they have,

they're willing to take a lot.

They are forgiving people.

I guess that's, it's baked into the religion, the forgiveness part of it all.

But I imagine some were mad.

I don't, I don't know what would upset them the most, though.

I feel like the Gucci pen would be the one where they said, okay, yeah, that's insane.

Well, as all this is going on, Jim, unlike some of the people we've covered on this show in the past, has been keeping a low profile, staying put in a mansion in Palm Springs.

But in May, Jim makes a move that sparks a showdown between him and Jerry.

Jim and Tammy Faye do an interview with Nightline.

During the interview, Jim says that he plans to someday return to the head of PTL.

He wants to get back to his theme park and says that Jerry Falwell is only supposed to be a temporary caretaker.

This does not sit well with Jerry, who decides that it's time to force Jim and Tammy Faye out for good.

Jerry claims that the interview made him realize that Jim is unfit to return and that while watching, he saw the greed, the self-centeredness, the avarice that brought Jim and Tammy down.

But it may just be that Jerry wants to keep PTL all to himself.

I mean, the man got a taste for the water slide and he doesn't want to give that up, if you know what I mean.

Do you think he has good intentions for wanting to remain the head of PTL or is just like, wait, this money is nice?

I don't think any of these people have good intentions, but I think he's also like, listen, I went down that water slide.

I'm not giving this up.

Like, I put put in work yeah i'm still picking that wedgie out of my ass

they just have they they get so many tools to kind of you know i saw avarice in his eyes i saw i saw the devil behind him they they get to just come up with all these extra reasons as opposed to saying what they want and the first to say it wins you know you just you just go oh he's overtaken by the devil and then no matter what he does you just go avarice and people go i don't even know what that means really but it sounds biblical.

Sounds scary.

Yeah.

Well, either way, Jerry holds a press conference in which he drops some major bombshells on Jim and Tammy Faye to try to make it impossible for them to ever come back to PTL.

Jerry tells viewers that for their work at PTL, they had demanded massive salaries, cars, and a lake house complete with furniture.

He also says Jim needs to return the millions of dollars that they have been taking from the coffers of this ministry at the cost of widows and supporters.

Oh boy.

Widows?

Not widows.

Not widows.

Oh my gosh.

Now, at this press conference, Jerry also says Jim has been hiding a huge secret.

He's gay.

Stop.

Given what we know about Jerry, it's not surprising that he'd weaponize homophobia like this, but it's still dark for anyone to pull this kind of move.

Jerry claims to have evidence that Jim had at least three same-sex affairs, gay gasp, though Jim denies all of it.

They went to the hell part of the roller coaster and it was playing Lady Gaga, like that was the music there.

Yes.

Yeah, exactly.

Bad romance just on loop.

Uh-huh.

Oh my gosh.

So finally, Jerry makes it 100% clear that Jim is out at PTL for good.

He looks straight into the camera and addresses Jim directly.

Jamarco, would you do a dramatic reading of what Jerry said to Jim?

I would love to.

Okay.

I must tell you, I would be doing a disservice to God and to the church at large to allow you to come back here now

or ever.

Right to the heart.

Right to the heart.

That was powerful.

Jim or Jiminy, as your gay lovers call you on the side.

Jiminy.

Jiminy.

That's your gay lover.

You can build on the backs of widowers, but not on the backs of these gay men.

It is just not okay.

Oh, my gosh.

Poor Tammy.

I know.

It really is poetic.

It's to ride, you ride on the back, no pun intended, of homophobia, and you go all the way to the top.

And that somehow that becomes weaponized to take you down from the top.

Insane.

I mean, if you really take the religion part out of it and just see it as like a, like a chess game, it's like, well, these are the rules and these are your weapons.

And it's,

oh, it's fun in theory.

So it's looking like Jim might be out for good at PTL, checkmate.

But even if he's able to find some way to get back in charge, there might not be anything left for him to be the boss of for too much longer.

On June 12th of 1987, PTL declares bankruptcy.

And in the wake of all these scandals, attendance at Heritage USA has started to drop.

For religious tourists looking to go on vacation, even a weekend in Vegas is probably looking less sinful than everything going on at Heritage right now.

Doesn't Disney have like either it's like gay week or gay day?

And like, there was always like, how does Disney those accusations made it?

So that's what they start doing at the theme park.

Like suddenly it was like, this is a gay haven.

Everyone who's closeted, come out.

Come on.

Oh Oh, my God.

Well, even worse for Jim, that same week, the IRS opens a criminal investigation into, you know, everything that's been going on with PTL.

And Heritage USA is at the core of this investigation.

Now, remember those $1,000 lifetime partnerships?

Big problem.

Jim sold more partnerships than they had hotel rooms.

Jim claimed that there would only be 25,000 partnerships sold, but wound wound up selling almost 160,000.

Oh my gosh.

I know.

I hope those lifetime partners don't mind sharing a hotel room with eight other people.

If you ever oversold a hotel like this, what would be your strategy to get out of it?

Tear down the hotel.

Perfect.

Well, the IRS also discovers that Jim's been keeping secret accounts that he's used as a way to send himself cash.

In April 1988, the IRS takes away PTL's tax-exempt status, which means that people's contributions to PTL are no longer tax-deductible.

Yeah, the IRS also says that PTL needs to pony up $55 million in back taxes.

So I don't think it's possible to cover debt like this by selling heavenly fudge.

No, I don't think so.

PTL is considering selling off some of the park's land to pay for the massive debts.

But even even with all this going on, Jim's still obsessed with his theme park dreams.

He's got plans to make an even bigger version of Heritage USA out in California.

This new park is going to be called Heritage Springs, and it's projected that it will cost $2 billion to build.

The delusion of this man.

And what is the obsession with theme parks?

Like, we need to unpack that.

Jim doesn't provide too many details about what Heritage Springs will look like.

He just vaguely mentions recreational facilities, condos, and hotels.

Now, Jim doesn't get a chance to break ground on Heritage Springs.

A huge disappointment to everyone who wanted an even bigger theme park to study the Bible at while on vacation.

In December of 1988, he's charged with conspiracy, mail fraud, and wire fraud in a total, adding up to 24 counts.

Charges that are directly related to him selling those partnerships in Heritage USA.

Tammy Faye, however, not charged with anything.

She's completely off the hook.

That's my girl.

I mean, how likely do you think it is, though, that she wasn't involved in any of the shady activities?

Oh, no, she's she's probably really terrible.

I just have to stand by my girl.

She loves cats, just like she loves cats.

We trust her.

Well, Jim's trial begins in August of 1989, and with its founder in the courtroom, Heritage USA's business is is taking a serious hit.

Only 10% of the rooms in the hotel are occupied, and a number of the attractions, including the water park, are losing money.

By September, Heritage Management decides to close down the hotel and pull the plug on the water park.

But the bad news for Jim does not stop there.

On October 5th, 1989, he's found guilty on every single count.

He's hit with a fine of half a million dollars and is given 45 years in prison.

Ooh.

Wow.

Wow.

I kind of wasn't expecting that.

And Tammy got nothing?

Nothing.

Not a thing.

Wow.

I would like if in prison he returned to his roots of puppeteering and found that that's actually what really made him happy.

And he said, yeah, the Gucci pens, they were nice.

Legend has it, that was the inspiration for Puppetry of the Penis.

Yes.

Yeah.

Now,

the prosecutor in the case says that it is by far and away the easiest fraud case I've ever prosecuted, which is really adding insult to injury.

Because if you're going to jail for fraud, I think you'd at least want the prosecutor to say something like, wow, this was such a clever and complicated scheme.

It was really tricky for me.

But no.

They're like, no, actually, you're a huge idiot.

Like, this was very black and white.

How did you get away with this for so long?

Is the trickiest question?

One of the investigators who was on the PTL case would later call Jim a charismatic con man, adding, He used God to fleece his thousands of listeners.

Wow,

sorry.

And how does Tammy Faye react to her husband being found guilty?

She sings a song outside the courthouse.

Let's take a look at a clip.

On Christ, the solid

rock I stand,

All

other ground

is sinking then.

All other ground

is sinking then.

It's not over till it's over.

Oh my gosh.

See, going back to her roots.

Going back to her roots.

Oh,

she has a scary face like Kenneth Copeland.

If she did that and then that dog came out there, it's not over till it's over, guys.

Oh, my gosh.

Okay, here's the question: if you were heading to prison, what song would you want someone to sing to send you off?

Oh, gosh.

I'm in such a lady gaga space right now.

I feel like I got to go with that.

I live for the applause, feels right.

That's probably why I'm going to jail.

I want something everybody knows, you know?

Play like the Macarena or something, something people can bop to, something that's going to be really like

memorable.

Three years to life,

yeah, three years to life.

Yeah, it's a really weird, it's a crazy sentence,

it all depends.

But prison isn't the end of Jim's troubles, and Heritage USA is once again at the center of his legal woes.

He gets sued by nearly 145,000 of those lifetime partners who gave money to get heritage USA hotel rooms.

And in 1990, a jury orders Jim to pay them almost $130 million.

Though, at this point, there's nothing but lint in the pockets of his prison jumpsuit.

After the verdict, one of Jim's lawyers says, The only thing my client owns is a 45-year lease on a 5x7 room in a Minnesota prison.

Which is a far cry from a 2,300-acre park.

Yeah, we really, we sunk really low here, Jim.

He could have had it all, Jim.

He could have.

And Tammy Faye may have said it's not over till it's over at the press conference after Jim was found guilty, but once Jim is in prison, she decides, actually, never mind, it is over.

And Tammy Faye files for a divorce from Jim in 1992.

Wow.

So.

To summarize, Jim is broke, disgraced, divorced, and in prison.

But what about Heritage USA?

At least the park he built is still going strong, right?

Now, just a few weeks after Jim is convicted on September 21st, 1989, Heritage is hit by a hurricane and suffers serious damage.

Talk about the wrath of God, my God.

God is like, take that.

God works in delayed ways.

Well, by the end of the year, it gets fully shut down as part of PTL's bankruptcy process.

Man, if you could pick one souvenir to get from Heritage USA, what would it be?

Oh, gosh.

I mean, I want.

I want that fudge.

Yeah.

Yeah, I thought the fudge.

I want that cross, like

the actor from the crucifixion scene.

Yeah.

The life-size cross.

The life size cross.

Yes.

And all the actors have signed it.

And they're like, what a great summer we had.

See you on Broadway.

See you on Broadway.

Oh my gosh.

So let's do a little, where are they now?

After getting divorced from Jim, Tammy Faye wrote two autobiographies and was a cast member on the reality show The Surreal Life in 2004.

No way.

I need to go back and watch that.

Oh my God.

Sometimes you hear stories that you go, and surely religion stopped after this.

Surely after this whole thing, people said, well, we're not trusting this again.

No, never.

Now, Miss Tammy Faye, she died of cancer in 2007.

But in 2021, a movie about her life, The Eyes of Tammy Faye, came out and Jessica Chastain won an Oscar for playing her.

Jim did not serve the full 45 years in prison.

He was able to get his sentence reduced and was paroled in 1994.

Wow, so he was only there for like five years.

Yeah.

He remarried and returned to the PTL network in 2003 with the Jim Baker show.

On the show, he sells buckets of non-perishable food supplies for emergencies.

Oh my gosh.

Sounds weird.

These guys always try to peddle something, I'm telling you.

Yeah.

One of the products that he sells contains freeze-dried nachos and tacos and is called the Fiesta Pale.

This feels very like lunchly by Logan Paul.

I feel like this is like, we're on a similar trajectory here.

Yeah, let's hope Logan Paul meets the same fate as Jim.

We'll see.

Yeah.

So here on the Big Flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high.

So are there any silver linings that you can think of from Jim Baker, Tammy Faye, and Heritage USA?

I think of the actors who got to perform.

You know, they can't all perform at Disney.

And I mean,

I'm sure people had some nice times.

Some families went, they got a place to go.

They spent time with the fam.

They went under the water slide, looked fun.

Yeah.

A water slide is, listen, a water slide is secular.

You know, I don't care what you say.

You're going down that slide.

You're just thinking, wow, this is fun.

Yeah.

You're not thinking about being homophobic on a water slide.

You're very open.

Some may be, but

maybe.

I feel like we really need to see a comedy ensemble movie about the workers at Heritage USA.

And I feel like we should produce that.

Yeah, like a Christopher Guest kind of.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Like Parker Posey can play somebody.

We can both be in it.

We can all be in it.

Okay, done.

I'm going to start writing this.

Well, now that you both know about Heritage USA, the Christian theme park that was brought down by the many scandals of its founder, Jim Baker, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

I think it's a mega flop because of all the money.

Because of all the money.

All the money.

I don't know.

I think of it as a mini flop in that

it's incredible how big it got.

You know, sometimes and sometimes big things need to come to an end and they had their time.

I wish all amusement parks would eventually fail and so new ones could emerge.

I think that's kind of good.

I think it's a problem when it kind of just stays when you got too many kind of smart, greedy people at the top.

So they just keep it going and nothing ever changes.

You want greedy people who are insane and bring about their own demise and then sell nachos.

Like that is, that's cool.

That's how change happens.

Oh, my God.

I love that.

Well, thank you so much to our guests, True Saints, John Marco Serese and Mackenzie Barman for joining us here on the big flop.

And of course, thanks to all of you for listening.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review.

We'll be back next week with a very special episode, our own award show.

It's the Floppies.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

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The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At-Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns.

Engineered by Zach Rapone with support from Andrew Holzberger.

Managing producer is Molly Getman.

Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnotti for At Will Media.

Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzynik, Summers, and Raymond.

Producers for Wondery are Adam Azaraff and Matt Beagle.

Managing producer is Sarah Mathis and the senior managing producer is Callum Pluse.

Music supervisor is Scott Velazquez for Freesong Sync.

Theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

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