How Abercrombie & Fitch Lost Its Shirt with CJ Franco and Leslie Liao | 64

Attention, all Big Flop stands.

Are you ready to take your love for the Big Flop to the next level?

Well, Wondery Plus is here to make your dreams come true.

With ad-free episodes, early access, and exclusive bonus content, you'll be swimming in a sea of content.

Your uninterrupted flop fix awaits.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts.

At the massive, 300-acre wooded Abercrombie and Fitch headquarters in Ohio, journalist Benoit Denizet Lewis shadows Mike Jeffries, Abercrombie's eccentric CEO, for an article in Salon.

Jeffries, Benoit notes, is an odd duck.

He's in his 60s, but his uniform consists of polos, jeans, and and flip-flops, like a middle-aged college kid.

He surrounds himself with hot, young people everywhere he goes.

On his company's jet, at parties, and here at work, where everyone dresses in apercrombie, rolls around on scooters, and sits by the big bonfire whenever they're not attending to their boss's needs.

All this while dance music pumps constantly through speakers in every building on the property.

It's time to do layouts for the Christmas shopping season.

So Jeffries and Benoit enter a dimly lit space meant to look like an Abercrombie and Fitch, the uber cool store every millennial tween is dying to shop at.

Jeffries seems agitated.

He's already lost his mind over a female mannequin that just didn't look right.

The fix?

Lower the jeans and pin the pants so so she looks skinnier.

Whatever it takes to make her look less butch.

Ill.

Now, he's fiddling with a male mannequin that doesn't look cool enough.

Jeffries beckons a handsome model to enter the floor with the same jeans on.

Jeffries gapes at, or rather, studies, his look for research.

Hmm.

This gives Jeffries the perfect idea.

Lower the jeans and bulk up the crotch.

That ought to do it.

Just another normal day of not doing anything that'll end up in a lawsuit, Jeffries probably thinks.

Benoit goes home and types up what he's learned.

Little does he know that a decade from now, his article will help topple the Mike Jeffries era of the Abercrombie Empire.

Audival's romance collection has something to satisfy every side of you.

When it comes to what kind of romance you're into, you don't have to choose just one.

Fancy a dalliance with a duke or maybe a steamy billionaire.

You could find a book boyfriend in the city and another one tearing it up on the hockey field.

And if nothing on this earth satisfies, you can always find love in another realm.

Discover modern rom-coms from authors like Lily Chu and Allie Hazelwood, the latest romantic series from Sarah J.

Maas and Rebecca Yaros, plus regency favorites like Bridgerton and Outlander.

And of course, all the really steamy stuff.

Your first great love story is free when you sign up for a free 30-day trial at audible.com/slash wondery.

That's audible.com/slash wondery.

Why are there ridges on Reese's peanut butter cups?

Probably so they never slip from her hands.

Could you imagine I'd lose it?

Luckily, Reese's thought about that.

Wonder what else they think about?

Probably chocolate and peanut butter.

Abercrombie and Fitch markets only to skinny and beautiful people.

Mike Jeffries, accused of exploiting men for sex.

Jeffries stepped down after the company faced lawsuits over a discriminatory and toxic work environment.

We

are

on a

single game ship.

From Wondering and At Well Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar you can smell all the way from the food court at Don't Cross a Gay Man.

And today, we're talking about the CEO that caused Abercrombie and Fitch to literally lose its shirt.

Now, everybody, on our show today, I'm so excited because we have two amazing comedians, two gorgeous gorgeous people.

It's CJ Franco and Leslie Liao.

Welcome to the show.

Hello.

Hey, Misha.

Thank you.

It's an honor.

So before we get into the story of Abercrombie and Fitch, I have to ask, were either of you an A and F teen yourselves?

I was because I grew up in Orange County, so it was like our uniform.

Oh, you couldn't help it.

I couldn't help it.

But I also was a little bit team Hollister.

I mean, how could you not?

Yeah.

I wanted to be an Abercrombie girly so bad, but I just like, unfortunately, didn't have that budget.

I did work in some pieces.

I was big into eBay.

So I made it happen.

We made it work.

Love that.

I forgot it's pricey.

Yeah, it was pricey when we were younger.

Oh.

So it's hard to like justify like asking your mom to buy jeans with 11 holes in them.

She's like, no, absolutely not.

All behind those dark wooden shutters was just a company stealing mom's hard-earned bucks.

Today, we're talking about the hottest, trendiest clothing brand for aspirational teens in the 90s and 2000s, which became the most despised brand in America, lost millions of dollars, and ended up being sued multiple times.

Now, this is a warning.

This flop gets so bad that both Jeffrey Epstein and Clarence Thomas make an appearance, if you can imagine.

No.

Oh my God.

Oh, yeah.

Okay.

I did not know this.

Okay.

And the main player has been back in the news lately for some not great reasons, which we'll get to.

Contrary to what you're probably thinking, Abercrombie and Fitch did not just appear out of nowhere in the 90s to torment awkward teenagers.

The company has a long history of waspy exclusionism.

Founded in 1892 by a topographer named David T.

Abercrombie, by 1904, one of Abercrombie's favorite customers, a successful lawyer named Ezra Fitch, he bought a huge stake in the brand and became a partner.

Back then, ANF was a luxury sporting goods store that sold everything a man.

could want.

We're talking sturdy jumpsuits, nice fishing rods, shaving cream, expensive guns, trinkets.

I don't know.

I'm not one of those men.

For the rest of us, think of it as an anthropology for men who believe in manifest destiny.

Oh, I see.

Okay, now that makes sense.

The brand was a favorite of Theodore Roosevelt, Amelia Earhart, American hero Charles Lindbergh, if you ignore the Nazi sympathizing, and Ernest Hemingway.

Then the Great Depression hits.

What do you think happened to Abercrombie and Fitch during the Great Depression?

They probably thrived.

I don't.

I feel like those luxury companies go under.

Well, Leslie, you are on to something because it became the largest sporting goods store in the country.

Big Five?

Not Big Five.

Yes, yeah, Big Five bought ANF in after the Great Rich.

Yes.

But like the rich people thrived because they weren't affected, I'm guessing.

Absolutely.

I had no idea this went so far back.

Well, this luxury sporting goods era came to a close a few decades later, and it was sudden.

By 1970, they were losing money and had to pull some of their more extravagant items off of the shelves.

In 1976, A ⁇ F filed for bankruptcy, was purchased by another sporting goods company, and then sold off again in 1988 to The Limited Group, owned by retail genius Les Les Wexner.

Les specializes in mall chains, either acquiring failing brands and turning them around, or taking successful stores and spinning them off.

If you've ever shopped at a Victoria's Secret, Bath and Body Works, or Express, it's Wexner's fault.

I went to Bath and Body Works last weekend.

You did?

Yes, I'm a Bath and Body Works girl.

You need to do some grounding work.

I mean, you have so many options now, and that's where you go.

It's not even like the holiday.

Was there a discount?

Bath and Body Works, everything's on sale every day.

Every day.

And I'm a discount lady.

Like, I'm a discount lady.

Like, that's how, that's how this guy, Lex, gets people like me.

I love, if the word sale is next to it, I, I'm a corporate drone.

I'm awful.

Not a corporate drone.

Oh, God.

Does it make you feel bad that you got like swept up with these companies that were all intertwined?

They raised us.

It does, but like, who do we trust?

Marshalls.

And Marshalls we trust.

Fine.

You know what?

I'm a Maxinista.

I'm a Marshalls girl.

I am an old Navy girl.

Aw, old Navy?

I don't trust old Navy.

In 1992, when our story heats up faster than a summer frat boy on daddy's yacht, the all-powerful Les Wexner decides Abercrombie and Fitch isn't going to be selling sporting goods anymore.

And he hires a new CEO, a freshly middle-aged guy named Mike Jeffries to turn the brand around.

Here he is.

Could you describe him for our listeners?

He's kind of hot.

He's like a hot dad.

I was just going to say white man.

Yeah.

Like I would be the worst witness in an interrogation.

You know, he does look like if you close your eyes and picture Abba Crombie model, like what it was in like its heyday,

it would be like that guy's dad.

He's like a Ted Bundy, like a blonde Ted Bundy.

At this point in his life, Jeffries has been in the retail game for a minute, but not in a good way.

He founded Alcott and Andrews, a brand for career women that quickly went bankrupt.

After that, Jeffries led the merchandising department at women's retailer Paul Harris, which also went bankrupt.

So this might be why, from this point forward, Jeffries has no interest in outfitting women.

His vision of Abercrombie will focus primarily on sporty boys.

How successful do you think Jeffries was on getting boys to wear Abercrombie and Finch?

Ooh.

I mean, their ads don't feature any clothing.

I'm going to say he wasn't good because he was out of touch with what sporty boys actually wanted to wear.

I don't know.

I was just like a baby.

Like, I'm so young.

I don't remember what Abercrombie even is.

I mean, all I know is when I was like a teenager, it just appeared and it was a beautiful thing that I couldn't have.

And they were mean to me.

That's all I know.

Despite his poor track record, Wexner sees Jeffries' potential.

And Jeffries does indeed figure out a winning formula for ANF.

He takes the original ethos of the brand from 1892 and uses its waspy, exclusive origins, think Teddy Roosevelt.

And he pairs it with sexy a la mode fashion, think Kelvin Klein.

And then he adds a little bit of his own magic fairy dust, think

bigotry.

Jeffries and his team start overhauling the brand into an all-American, extremely privileged beacon.

And they decide that everything down to the dog a person has either makes them an Abercrombie person or not.

Like, if you drive a Jeep and have a golden retriever, you're probably an Abercrombie kid.

If you have a ratty little poodle and drive a sedan, you're not.

Ultimately, and this is only implied, you could have 10 prize retrievers and a diamond-studded Jeep, and you are not an Abercrombie kid if you're ugly.

Oh,

that's real.

That's real.

But the thing is, I still bought the stuff.

I had a goldfish and a Toyota Raffour, and I was a five.

I was a junior high five, but I still bought Abercrombie.

They let me in.

Oh.

Because I know what they were very smart.

They made it exclusionary.

But if you had money, they let you in the store.

What do you remember from the A and F stores at the mall?

The migraines.

It smelled like ass.

Yeah.

I wanted to be there so bad.

Did you go in the store a lot and browse, even though like you didn't end up buying anything?

You just like walked around and touched the sweatshirts.

Oh, God.

Yeah.

I was hoping to find something without a sensor on it.

You were a thief.

You were a thief.

No, it was so dark in there.

I remember it was so dark that you couldn't shop.

I remember my mom couldn't see anything.

So for those of us too young to fully remember, from the outside, the windows are shuttered and you can only see a big blown-up picture of a model in the doorway luring you in or making you too insecure to go in.

Now, you might think, Misha, that's just weird.

But for some reason, the shuttered windows add to the mystery and exclusive vibe.

It was like a nightclub.

Yes, yes.

It was exactly like a nightclub.

There was loud music playing in it, just like a nightclub.

We're talking about those migraines because everything smells like Abercrombie's signature cologne.

Do you remember what the cologne was called?

It's like you can't have this.

It's like unattainable.

Young abs.

It was like, you're not good enough.

Go to therapy.

Teenage abs sweat.

Bossy bottom by

fierce.

Oh.

Oh, wow.

They were tapped in.

They were tapped into the culture.

I did not remember that.

I want it now.

You know, what's so funny is I sang on cruise ships for a really long time, and we always had like Eastern European dancers, like Ukraine, Russia, and stuff.

And they were so obsessed with Abercrombie still in like the late teens.

And we would would have to go to a mall and get them a bottle of that Fierce Cologne.

Oh, do they wear it on the cruise?

You're just trapped on the cruise with Fierce all around you.

Yes, yes.

Oh my God.

I would have loved that.

That would have been just like panties off.

In the first two years with Jeffreys as CEO, he does in fact nearly double sales at Abercrombie and Fitch.

And Jeffries credits his own meticulous handling of every aspect of the brand for this miracle.

I mean, he picks the models.

He helps design the clothes.

From his headquarters, he masterminds the layouts of every store.

And once he's done with the layout mock-ups, they are photographed and sent to individual stores to be exactly replicated by the managers.

How do you think he makes sure they've done it right?

They take pictures.

They take pictures and they send it back, no?

I don't want to say he went to every store.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

He did do surprise store visits.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And the employees internally called them blitzes.

With only a couple of days' notice, the employees pull all-nighters to make sure their store is spic and span.

But more importantly, the managers have to consider who is working the floor.

They better be hot, they better be white, and all of the other ones better have the day off.

Yeah.

Well, Jeffries has one more ace up his sleeve.

A photographer named Bruce Weber.

Now, Weber is one of the most sought-after fashion photographers in the world, and for good reason.

He's worked with Calvin Klein, Ralph Lorraine, Armani, Vogue, GQ, basically all of the big designers and magazines.

Weber's specialty is candid-looking shots of young men set against nature.

Wikipedia describes his book, Bear Pond, as being about his pet dogs.

Thankfully, we know better than to trust Wikipedia.

So let's take a look at two of these photos of Weber's pets.

Oh.

I don't know how I'm supposed to feel right now.

I mean, this is basically like a straight male engagement.

Like, you know, those engagement photo shoots with like a straight couple.

It's like that, but worse.

It's like

shirtless, hot, chiseled man spooning a golden retriever.

I think in one of the photos, he's about to make out with this dog.

Is it bad that I like these photos?

Like, I think they've really held up well over time.

Yes.

I mean, I might have prints of these blown up and put into my home office, but they are certainly not a book about dogs.

It's a little sexual for that.

Now, at first, Jeffries can't even afford Weber.

So he buys one photograph from Weber and hangs it up at an AF.

But once the money starts rolling in and they partner up, it's game over.

Abercrombie and Fitch becomes almost synonymous with young, half-naked, muscle-clad lads.

I'm pretty sure looking at an Abercrombie and Fitch bag was how I realized I was gay.

100%.

They're preppy.

They're rugged.

They're wrestling each other for some reason.

In fact, let's take a look at a clip.

This is a short promotional film for Abercrombie called Wrestling by Bruce Weber.

Oh, hell yes.

He's looking at me and I'm looking at him.

And you always look for fear in their eyes.

We both worked hard, I know that.

But he's trying to take my work.

That was to advertise Abercrombie?

Yes.

They didn't even have the logo, not even like

one person was wearing a shirt with like the A.

I'm just, I'm not mad.

I know that we're supposed to be upset.

I'm just, I'm not upset.

It's, it's tasteful, like on a standalone spot.

Like, yeah, it has a vision.

You know what I mean?

Like it's like a music video.

It's sexy, but it does not advertise Abercrombie.

I just want to give them my money.

I don't care what it's for.

I just want to give them my money.

I think you have like deep trauma from like, she still wants it.

So she doesn't care whether or not it's problematic.

Like, oh, it's so problematic.

You need the clothes.

I feel like after this, we're going to find out that CJ is the Abercrombie heiress and

it's fucking loaded.

No, I work for the company.

I was put here to soften the blow.

So that short film is a finished product, but Weber also creates copious amounts of screen tests before he and Jeffries agreed to hire certain models.

And now these tests, they're their own level of cringe.

I mean, there was one screen test that features a man in assless medieval armor.

I mean,

there are a few where the models were singing but don't know how to sing.

But this clip, it even gives me secondhand embarrassment.

Let's watch.

Ask him some questions.

Let's see what happens.

Where are you headed in that outfit?

Where are you going?

You look so sharp.

Just going out.

Party.

So.

Taking any girls with you?

Just my girlfriend.

Can I be your girlfriend?

No.

That's all right.

Wait, is this scripted?

No.

What is happening?

Chad, that was so rude.

Did he just turn down the black girl?

He did.

Freaking Chad.

And she's gorgeous.

Like, they're both models.

Have either of you ever had a screen test?

like this?

No.

No.

When I'm wearing a trench coat with no bra and like asking out a model.

I'm like, no, no.

I've had some weird, some weird stuff, but not specifically that.

Well, by 1996, it's unfortunately clear that Mike's approach is working.

When he took over in 1992, Abercrombie and Fitch had 36 stores doing a total of $50 million in sales.

Now they have 125 stores and do 335 million dollars in sales.

And just a couple of years later in 1999, sales top $1 billion.

And the brand is even immortalized in LFO's rap song, Summer Girls.

Oh, I like girls who wear Abercrombie and Fitch.

Exactly.

Oh, no, no.

I bet Lex Werner owned them too.

Has anyone looked into that?

But back to Jeffries, because Jeffries is overdue for a backlash.

Soon, everything that's made ANF a success, the exclusivity, the snootiness, the flagrant sex, it will all come crashing down on Jeffries' head.

Now, before we go any further, there's still so much to learn about Abercrombie's impact on fashion and culture.

So let's play a game.

Since we're in the collegiate spirit, think of this as both a crash course and a pop quiz.

So, first question is: multiple choice.

Until it was discontinued, AF released a quarterly magazine chock full of pictures of boys and a few girls with provocative articles and probably clothes you could buy.

What was this catalog called?

Was it A, the Magalog, B, the Catazine, C, the xenolog,

or D, the calgamine?

Xenolog.

They're all terrible.

The third one you said, the cagalog.

Calgamine.

Is that a drug?

What?

Wait, these are terrible.

What was the second one?

Catazine.

Oh, it might be catazine.

I'm guessing cadazine.

No, it's the magalog.

What?

Oh, my God.

It's spelled like MAGA log.

Yeah, yeah.

You can still buy these on eBay.

The 1998 Summer MAGA Log features a female model in a bikini hosing off both a golden retriever and a young male model at the same time.

Oh my gosh.

Poor girl.

Second question.

The Abercrombie and Fitch flagship brand is aimed at preppy college kids, but here are three other brands.

Abercrombie, without the Fitch, is for middle schoolers who want to dress older.

Rule is for the 22 to 35 year old set who don't want to age anymore.

And Witch Brand is for high schoolers.

Note, Leslie loved this store.

Hollister?

Oh, Hollister.

Ding, ding, ding.

Hollister.

How was Hollister involved in all this with Abercrombie?

Hollister is Abercrombie.

You didn't know that?

Yeah, it's also like Old Navy and Gap.

They're the same.

Oh my God.

You guys can't get enough of this old navy.

They have great affordable athleisure.

This is hot madness, which is they have fantastic affordable athleisure.

Third question.

Many of today's celebrities modeled for Abercrombie and Fitch before they made it big.

Can you recognize these three?

Oh my God, yeah.

The middle guy is the you guy, Jennifer Lawrence.

Oh, that's Taylor Swift.

Oh wait, no, is it?

Oh my God, it's Taylor?

Why would Jennifer Lawrence have a guitar?

Okay, wait.

You know what?

It's very early.

It's not, it's 1:15.

I'm very tired.

Wait, I thought it was Jennifer Lawrence.

And then, is that Ashton?

Ashton Kutcher.

Ashton Kutcher.

That's a young Ashton.

Well, he's lived a life.

Yes, those are Taylor Swift, Penn Badgley, and Ashton Kutcher.

But others include Jennifer Lawrence, Olivia Wilde, January Jones, and more.

Last question.

Which of the following graphic t-shirts are not made by Abercrombie and Fitch?

A.

Who needs a brain when you have these?

Oh, that's Abercrombie.

B, gentlemen prefer tig ol' bitties.

C,

bad girls chug, good girls drink quickly.

Or D, do I make you look fat?

Wait, these are

what?

D and A for sure.

That's 100% Abercrombie.

Piggle Biddies is not Abercrombie.

Uh-uh.

That is like Spencer's gifts.

That's like hot topic.

That's not Abercrombie.

Yeah, I would say that doesn't scream Golden Retriever to me.

Well, I am so sorry to tell you that they're all real.

Oh, my God.

Every single one of them was a graphic T at Abercrombie and Fitch.

No way.

Because it's off-brand, dude.

It's not Americana.

I love the game.

Oh, my gosh.

I'm like, I'm sweating.

I got really worked up.

Apple Watch is saying, are you working out?

It's here.

Your long-awaited PTO.

You pack up, grab your sunscreen, walk out the door, and stick the key under the mat.

Just one problem.

You're being safe, ish.

You know, safe-ish.

It's those little tricks that don't actually keep us safe, like the key under the mat or the old leaving the lights on routine.

For true peace of mind, sit back and let ADT's technicians install a security system customized for your home with features like 24-7 monitoring and cameras you can check from your phone.

So go ahead, break in those new flip-flops.

And whatever you do, don't settle for safe-ish.

Visit ADT.com to find out more.

Summer Entertaining becomes effortless with Boarshead.

Their premium meats, cheeses, and tips elevate any gathering from casual poolside hangouts to elegant picnics.

The new basil pesto and sweet barbecue hummus flavors add a fresh twist to the lineup, while their expanded charcuterie selection, now featuring olives, brings a touch of sophistication to any spread.

Whether it's a fantastic 4th of July celebration or relaxed Labor Day get-together, Boarshead products transform ordinary occasions into memorable experiences.

For your next summer event, visit your local deli counter and explore the difference that true craftsmanship makes.

Boarshead, committed to craft since 1905.

So, in 1992, when Mike Jeffries landed the gig as CEO of Abercrombie and Fitch, he was a normal-looking guy who dressed in Oxford shirts and corduroy pants.

Going back even further, he wore the same outfit to work every day, usually gray flannel pants, old loafers, and a double-breasted navy blazer.

Now cut to the new millennium.

He wears only Abercrombie gear, like polos, worn-out jeans, and flip-flops.

And he is desperate to look like one of his models.

And I mean, he sort of used to, right?

CJ was like, hot dad.

Now, you remember the photo I showed you of 48-year-old Jeffries?

Blonde, white dude?

Looks like a dad on a CW show?

You want to see him at 61?

No, but you're going to show us anyways.

I do.

I want to see so badly.

Here you go.

Yeah.

Okay.

You know what?

I got a little too much filler once as well.

Is it just all filler?

It looks like a ton of filler to me.

Look at those lips.

He's like, I'm going to have these big plush lips.

See, no one should have money and power because it's like you have all this excess and then what do you do to your face?

Did he get a chin implant?

Our boy, he went nuts.

So his physical transformation sort of mirrors his internal one because as time goes on, people realize he has a dark side.

As documented in a salon article from 2006 by writer Benoit Deniset-Lewis, in a riveting profile, BDL gets the inside scoop on Jeffries' thought processes at his cult-like campus, a sprawling 300-acre HQ in Ohio where everyone is hot and dresses the same.

BDL gets Jeffries to drop some quotes that are still being referenced almost 20 years later.

And made into graphic tees.

And being made into graphic tees, exactly.

For example, in 2002, ANF causes a commotion when they release thongs for middle schoolers that have printed on them the phrases eye candy and wink wink.

See, you know what?

Old Navy would never do that.

No, they wouldn't.

Sorry to keep bringing it back.

Here's what Jeffries says in response, while sweating profusely, according to BDL.

That was a bunch of bullshit.

People said we were cynical, that we were sexualizing little girls.

But you know what?

I still think those are cute underwear for little girls.

And I think anybody who gets on a bandwagon about thongs for little girls is crazy, just crazy.

What a like stand to take.

Like thongs for little girls is not like a political platform you need to like associate yourself to.

Also, like, I am an adult woman.

I don't even wear thongs.

I could not get my hands on thongs fast enough.

Like,

I wanted something trashy.

I wanted to be sparkly.

I wanted to look like a stripper.

And I was 11.

You should have bought these.

These were for you.

Like, you were the audience for these.

I did.

I mean, who was his PR team?

Well, no one was censoring this.

Just say it was for adult women.

Stop calling them underwear for little girls that say I candy.

He should have just said it was for college students and just left it there.

Well, during Jeffree's tenure, the clothing for all ages has gotten increasingly skimpier, for the ladies at least.

The skirts are shorter, the jeans are lower, and the tanks are tighter.

It's enough to give you an eating disorder, which, according to Jeffries, is kind of the whole point.

Here's what he says to BDL: quote: A lot of people don't belong.

They can't belong.

Are we exclusionary?

Absolutely.

Those companies that are in trouble are trying to target everybody, young, old, fat, skinny, but then you become totally vanilla.

Where are we supposed to shop?

Back then, Target wasn't even cool.

So where were we supposed to shop?

Remember those sexist graphic teas?

Well, they led to protests from feminist and anti-addiction groups.

But ANF doesn't just make misogynistic teas.

No, they're all-encompassing.

Unlike their hiring practices, where they hire mostly mostly white models for their marketing and their stores their offensive tees are much more inclusionary no

there is the l is for loser next to a male gymnast shirt playing on homophobia in male gymnastics what weird given af's aesthetic okay the loser shirt leads to a boycott led by the usa gymnastics president Mike obliges and pulls the shirt from stores.

Now, okay, brace yourselves.

ANF doesn't stop there.

An entire line of racist shirts trigger protests by Asian American students in Stanford.

Let's take a look.

This one's got a couple of Asian caricatures on it, and it's advertising the Wong Brothers Laundry Service.

And if that's not enough, what does it say?

Two Wongs can make it white.

That's insane.

That's insane.

Oh, I did see this one.

Okay.

This was the brand that I tried to wear to like be white.

So like I had to wear like racist shirts against my own people to like be cool.

You wouldn't wear the Wong Brothers laundry shirt.

Why, why are we doing this?

But I was, I was so blind to like trying to be cool.

I was like probably convincing my poor mom, like, no, it's cool.

Like all the kids are wearing it.

It just seems like they were doing whatever.

They were doing whatever they wanted.

Someone's like, this is kind of funny and it's massively offensive.

What's wild is by the time this interview for Salon happens, ANF has already been sued for discrimination and he's still just blase

about it all.

In 2003, a group of former employees and people who applied to work at Abercrombie and Fitch but weren't hired filed a class action lawsuit claiming they were discriminated against based on their race.

The smoking gun in the case, Mike's employee handbook, dictating everything employees should wear down to their skivvies.

It prohibits things like dreadlocks, gold chains.

It mandates that all employees have a natural American classic look with pictures of blonde white people as examples.

You know, I have to just say I did apply to be, I wanted to be a model at Abercrombie.

I wanted it so bad.

And I definitely applied.

And it's just, I got nothing.

I got nothing.

Like absolutely.

Really?

No, no.

What was the application?

Did you, did you physically go in?

I don't even think that they would give me an application.

I think they just looked at me and they said, we're not hiring.

Oh, my God.

Well, jokes on them.

You became a real model.

In spite of them.

In spite of them, yes.

Yeah.

You didn't need them.

ANF settled the suit in 2005 without admitting any wrongdoing, of course,

but agreed to pay $50 million.

Wow.

They changed its hiring practices and brought on a chief diversity officer.

So it's fixed.

So all is well, right?

Yeah.

No, no, no.

No, of course not.

Too easy.

Abercrombie's not going to go down like that.

Is your AI built to work with your business's data?

IBM helps you integrate and govern unstructured data wherever it lives, so your business can have more accurate AI instead of just more of it.

Get your data ready for AI at IBM.com.

The AI Built for Business, IBM.

Five years after the discrimination suit in 2008, a 17-year-old Oklahoma native, Samantha Eloff, applies for a job at Abercrombie and Fitch.

Eloff is perfect.

She's into fashion, her interviewer likes her, and as a bonus for the Vane brand, she's adorable.

The problem?

She's sporting a hijab.

The hiring manager rejects Eloff's application, saying that no employees are allowed to wear hats.

Oh.

Yes.

Very weirdly, Jeffries refuses to settle this particular suit and Iloff wins $20,000 in damages.

But shockingly, the decision is then reversed in appeals courts.

Yes, the 10th U.S.

Circuit Court of Appeals rules that potential employees need to notify their prospective employers that they need special accommodations before this can be considered discrimination.

This case goes all the way to the Supreme Court.

Oh, whoa.

Warnja, Clarence Thomas is a part of this flop.

So while all of that is percolating in the background, Jeffries has a business to run into the ground

because here comes the Great Recession.

Now, Abercrombie and Fitch is not the only brand to feel the pinch during the great 2008 recession.

You might remember our JC Penny rebrand flop.

If not, please go check out that episode.

Now, after the housing bubble obliterates the economy, most retailers struggle to make it through with or without megalomaniacs at the helm.

But what sets ANF apart is that Jeffries refuses to offer discounts.

That's literally what crushed the original ANF brand.

That's against all of my values.

Leslie said, not a damn chance that I would be caught dead in that store without a sale.

I don't pay full price.

I protested in the streets.

So AF has 17 consecutive months of losses, leading one survey to name Jeffries the highest paid worst performing CEO of 2008.

Wow.

He's certainly overpaid.

Jeffries is collecting an absurd eight-figure paycheck.

In 2008, he took home $72 million.

Oh my God.

Isn't that crazy?

I don't get it.

I seriously don't get it.

Like, how?

They were losing money the entire time.

This dude's just doing whatever he wants.

Like, I mean.

What I've learned from hosting this show,

white men in leadership

are bad.

Doesn't matter.

They can run a company into the ground and still get a pay raise.

And wait, and that's what he chose to do with his face?

And that's what he chose to do with his face.

Yeah, with all that money.

Yeah.

Couldn't find a better doctor.

Instead of adjusting to the situation he finds himself in, Jeffries goes on a tirade against a different situation.

Mike, the situation, Sorrentino.

What?

The reality show Jersey Shore is huge, and the very fratty cast members love AF clothing,

which gets jeffries all steamed up he offers sorantino and other cast members a few thousand dollars to get them to stop wearing abbercrombie and fitch clothing saying that he's concerned it will ruin the brand's reputation i didn't know that Now, this is ironic given that Abercrombie and Fitch starts selling Jersey Shore parody shirts with slogans like the Fituation emblazoned upon them.

The situation, Sorrentino, he refuses the $10,000 he's offered.

Good for him.

And actually sues Abercrombie for copyright infringement for the fituation shirts.

Good for him, yes.

Unfortunately, he loses that suit.

Oh, sad.

But meanwhile, the real reputational damage is moving past the point of no return.

In 2012, ANF gets sued again, this time by the company's former private jet pilot, who claims he was fired and replaced with a younger man.

Of course, this suit is settled out of court with no admission of guilt on Abercrombie's part.

Wait, even the pilot had to be hot?

Like, did he know how to fly a plane?

Who knows?

He just had to be a hot guy.

Like, I don't need my pilot to be hot.

I need him to be trained.

Now, that same year, Jeffries is named the worst CEO by a Wall Street analyst.

The reason?

ANF stock has collapsed 40% that year alone, and stores have experienced another 11 straight quarters of losses.

But most of the public still has no idea how bad Jeffries is.

Until.

In 2013, the Salon article goes viral seven years after publication, and Jeffries' young, old, fat, skinny comments blow up.

This is thanks to an activist who petitions ANF to carry more inclusive sizes and who asks Jeffries to apologize for the multitude of offensive comments he's made over the years.

Now, Abercrombie waits almost two weeks to respond, allowing social media to do what social media does, eat them alive.

And then, after all of that, Jeffries finally offers the classic non-apology, quote, I sincerely regret that my choice of words was interpreted in a manner that has caused offense.

I'm sorry you feel that way, minorities.

So Jeffries has fulfilled his prophecy.

He's revived a dead brand, only to put it back in its tomb in almost an identical way to the brand's founders.

On December 9th of 2014, he leaves the company and Abercrombie's stock immediately goes up 6%.

Undeservingly, he still receives a huge $27 million exit package.

Must be nice.

The new ANF, led by a new female CEO, gets rid of the nightclub vibes, which means airy, open, bright stores that are not drenched in fierce cologne.

Remember that Supreme Court case regarding Samantha Elof, the teen who wasn't hired because of her religious head covering?

Well, in June of 2015, the court finds in her favor, eight to one, ruling that Abercrombie violated the religious discrimination portion of the Civil Rights Act.

Can you guess which justice cast the dissenting vote?

Claire Bear.

Claire Bear.

Claire Bear, come on.

Clarence Thomas, you scamp.

Yeah.

I mean, how many graphic T's do you think Abercrombie gifted Clarence Thomas for the dissenting

Overruled.

Overrut, Misha.

So let's do a little, where are they now?

Jeffries keeps making headlines, as we alluded to at the beginning.

Most recently, thanks to a civil class action lawsuit accusing him of sex trafficking more than 100 young men in exchange for modeling gigs, money, and drugs during his time at Abercrombie and Fitch.

He, of course, denies this, and the lawsuit is still ongoing.

But then, just this October, Jeffries was arrested and indicted for similar charges by a federal court.

Again, he has pleaded not guilty, and the case is ongoing.

But if convicted, Jeffries would be facing many, many years behind bars.

That's a huge story.

That's huge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Speaking of disgusting behavior, remember photographer Bruce Weber?

Well, he's been sued by multiple models for sexual harassment.

All these cases were settled, and of course, he denies any wrongdoing and continues to work as a photographer.

Now, I promised you, Jeffrey Epstein, as a part of this flop?

Well, good old Les Wexner, the mall store mogul who hired Jeffries to run ANF, he has been found tingled up in the sex trafficker's creepy web.

Before his death, Epstein was Wexner's financial advisor.

And in a 2002 lawsuit, they were described as close personal friends.

Wexner gave Epstein the power of attorney, and Epstein reportedly was involved in selecting models for Victoria's secret.

To his credit?

Wexner cut ties with Epstein years before Epstein came to the public's attention.

Wexner claimed Epstein embezzled $46 million from him and regretted ever knowing him.

Wexner has never been accused of any wrongdoing in connection with Epstein.

That's just like a dumpster fire friend group.

I know.

That is a terrible text chain.

I know.

I wonder if Diddy's on it too.

Ugh.

So will Abercrombie and Fitch survive?

Only time will tell.

By the the end of 2018, A ⁇ F continued to close their stores, about 450 of them, but they are currently experiencing a major renaissance, thanks in part to the re-emergence of 90s trends.

Fashion blogs also praise Abercrombie and Fitch for their new inclusive size options and their wedding shop.

Oh, oh, I had no idea they make wedding dresses.

I'm so excited.

Yeah.

Can I get a wedding dress with like a cute little racist Asian slogan

on the train, on the veil?

Why does that sound kind of amazing?

My veil can say, love you long time,

you know?

First of all, that's beautiful.

You need to get in there.

We have ideas.

Now, here on the big flop, we try to be positive people and end on a high.

So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from this more than questionable era of Abercrombie and Fitch.

Okay, I got this.

Ready, guys?

Okay.

Sure.

I think that we've done a good job, okay, promoting dogs and being a good dog owner.

Oh.

I think it's a good move for the dogs.

I can't think of anything

like that.

No, like this.

Like the, now that I hear it all, the Abercrombie clothes were not that cute to deserve all that scandal.

I have a pro-old Navy thought.

Like, go to your local old Navy, like, look for a discount.

Don't, and I would say, don't try to wear clothes that

make you feel cool to other people.

Just wear stuff that make you feel comfortable.

Dress for yourself, not for anyone else.

Love that.

I think it's nice in this story that it was like millennial activists continued hounding them and not letting up, something I'm not sure would have been possible in the 80s or 90s.

And as a result, it seems like ANF's direction seems to be a more positive one.

one.

We are the change.

Now that you both know about the rise and fall of Abercrombie and Fitch, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

I mean, that's a big flop.

We came a long way, but I am happy to see that there is a female in charge, that they've rebranded.

And I do think that you can change and you can evolve and you can grow.

So I don't know if it's the biggest flop, but what those guys did, what Gross Daddy did is like, that's a huge flop.

I'm gonna go mega and it's like I like the comeback that they fixed it and changed the company like now this Abercrombie new wave of it just feels like a completely different company just disassociate from what it used to be and like call it new navy

Yeah, it's on version three

Well, thank you so much to our super stylish guests, Leslie Liao and CJ Franco for joining us here on the big flop.

And of course, thanks to all of you for listening.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a little rating and review.

We'll be back next week with a real roller coaster of a flop.

It's Tammy Faye and Jim Baker's Christian Evangelical Theme Park that Couldn't Be Saved, Heritage USA.

Bye.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts.

Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey.

The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At-Will Media, hosted by Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova and Luke Burns.

Engineered by Zach Rapone with support from Andrew Holtzberger.

Managing producer is Molly Getman.

Executive producers are Kate Walsh and Will Malnotte for At Will Media.

Legal support by Carolyn Levin of Miller, Korzynik, Summers, and Raymond.

Producers for Wondery are Adam Azarath and Matt Beagle.

Managing producer is Sarah Mathis, and the senior managing producer is Callum Plus.

Music supervisor is Scott Velasquez for Freesong Sink.

Theme song is Sinking Ship by Cake.

Executive producers are Lizzie Bassett, Dave Easton, and Marshall Louie for Wondering.

And now, a next level moment from ATT business.

Say you've sent out a gigantic shipment of pillows, and they need to be there in time for International Sleep Day.

You've got ATT 5G, so you're fully confident, but the vendor isn't responding, and International Sleep Day is tomorrow.

Luckily, ATT 5G lets you deal with any issues with ease, so the pillows will get delivered and everyone can sleep soundly, especially you.

ATT 5G requires a compatible plan and device.

Coverage not available everywhere.

Learn more at ATT.com/slash 5G network.