Salem Witch Trials: Coven of Conspiracy with Em Schulz and Christine Schiefer | 44

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Tituba has nowhere left to turn.

She shivers from the cold and the fear.

It's winter of 1692, and she's on trial in Salem, Massachusetts, accused of practicing witchcraft.

As an enslaved woman of color in colonial America, Titchuba's basically helpless.

The men in charge have told her over and over that she has to confess or else.

At this point, she has no choice.

So she decides to lean in and give them what they want.

Titchiba steadies herself.

The devil came to me, she announces, and told me to serve him.

The onlookers gasp.

She continues, describing him to a captive audience.

He's tall, white-haired, stylish, draped in a long black coat surrounded by wicked women.

Who are these other women?

I didn't get a good look, but they're definitely out there.

Yep, lots of them.

And now, I can't see, she screams.

Wow, Satan must be really angry with her for giving up his secrets, right?

Tituba delivers the performance of a lifetime, and the gambit pays off.

The authorities dismiss her.

She's safe.

But problem.

Now the locals have to catch the actual spellcasters and since those don't exist, this is shaping up to be a real witch hunt.

Some folks in the Puritan village blame the odd behavior of several young girls on witchcraft.

The big problem in the 17th century is that witches are real.

Everyone believes in witches.

Who came to you with the devil?

Two?

Three?

Four?

The names, the names.

Someone's been suggesting who would be bewitching the girls so they know names.

I saw Sarah with the devil!

I saw Cody Arnold Boyd with the devil!

I saw Bridget Bishop with the devil!

Hear ye, hear ye, the court of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, County of Salem, the village of Salem is now in session.

We

are on

a single ship.

From Wondery and at Will Media, this is The Big Flop, where we chronicle the greatest flubs, fails, and blunders of all time.

I'm your host, Misha Brown, social media superstar, and which please, you know I'm the warlock of your dreams at Don't Cross a Gay Man.

And today, we're giving into the evil spirits and channeling one of America's biggest judicial fails, the Salem Witch Trials.

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It's your man, Nick Cannon.

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On our show today, we have the absolutely fabulous co-hosts of And That's Why We Drink, it's M Schultz and Christine Schieffer.

Welcome to the show.

Yes, it's us.

We're here.

It's an honor.

I just think this is the most genius premise of any show ever.

And when you said Salem Witch Trials, I was like, wow, that's going to be quite an angle to take.

I love it.

There's nothing I love more than drama and judging, and especially when it's our own history.

So, I'm a big fan, big fan immediately.

M recently actually took me to Salem for the first time ever a couple months ago.

So, I feel like perfectly primed for this episode now.

I love that.

By the way, have you ever signed your name in the devil's book?

Is that like what the kids are calling we?

Is that

if so, then yes, maybe, maybe.

Depends on who's asking.

I haven't, but I know a lot of friends who have.

It's history month at Wondery, so it's time to dig into the Salem Witch Trials.

There's definitely more to the story than you might think.

And today, we're heading to Danvers, Massachusetts, in the late 1600s, then known as Salem Village, the location of the famous witch trials.

Salem Village is primarily farmland, part of the Greater Salem Town, where a busy port provides the colony with lots of fishing, commerce, trade.

While the town is about 2,000 people strong, the village only has about 500 to 600 residents.

And it's full of devout Puritans who are growing more and more suspicious of modernization.

As they should be.

Allow.

So are you superstitious or just suspicious?

I've been a ghost hunter since college, and you would think by now I would be like this esteemed mogul in ghost hunting.

That's what I'd like to think of myself as.

And instead, I'm like the most squirrely little cat and everything is a ghost to me.

So I'd say I'm definitely a more superstitious one.

Okay, well, I'm so sorry about this, but let's take a second to discuss Puritanical beliefs.

Yay.

The Puritans get their start as a backlash movement to the Church of England, which they feel is too Catholic.

They're fundamentalists, but they're not separatists like the Pilgrims.

Still, they migrate to the colonies in the 1600s to get a little distance from the motherland and to practice their new religion.

The Puritan colonists are terrified of evil all around them.

Oh no.

And even though superstition and paganism is frowned upon, many Puritans can't help but believe in certain supernatural forces.

And to make sense of their world and reduce their fears, they cast little spells, say a lot of prayers, and hope that angels angels will help them with various troubles that God's too busy to address.

It's like such a slippery slope.

And like I went to Catholic school my whole life and it's just amazing how they're so anti, you know, sorcery and witchcraft.

And then they're like, no, no, no, when the guy in the big robe says this particular line in Latin,

the wine actually turns literally into Jesus' blood and then we drink it.

And I'm like, oh, okay, but that's not the same.

That's a different kind of sorcery and magic.

Well, in more conservative circles, medicine, fortune telling, or even wishful thinking could be considered an invitation to unauthorized spirit devils.

Wishful, so sending good vibes, just being like a positive person and having like just hoping, no vision boards.

Sweet, you can pray, but you can't hope.

That's what it is.

Okay.

Exactly.

Well, before we go any further, I must know if you two are witches.

And to do that, let's play a game.

Yeah, okay.

So, here are the rules.

I'm going to ask you a few questions about common practices believed by Salem folk to be actual witchcraft.

If you know the answer, you are a witch and you must repent.

If you don't know the answer, you might be hiding that you are a witch, so you must also repent.

Oh man, love that.

First question: A way to divine your marriage prospects is with a Venus glass.

What is it?

A Venus glass.

Is that kind of that shell

mirror?

Like a mirror that's like made of a shell?

I don't know.

So thank God.

I'm not a witch just yet.

Well, it's not the shell, but we should definitely look into that.

No, the answer is it's an egg white that's dropped into a glass full of water.

And the shape of the albumin is supposed to be a clue.

Okay, I was way off.

I'm over there looking at a seashell like, I think I'm never getting married.

Yeah.

My albumin would be, it would look like the shape of divorce papers or something.

Like, it would be, I could already tell how this is going to go.

Yeah.

All right.

Second question.

Multiple choice.

If one is missing livestock and would like to learn the identity of the thief who stole them, one can place a large house key inside the pages of a Bible, tie the Bible closed, and then what?

A, drop it on the ground, B, spin it all around, or C present it to a hound.

Oh, oh,

oh, I like your funny words, music man.

I'm going to say the first one.

I'm going to say spin it all around.

Christine, ding, ding, ding.

Uh-oh, uh-oh.

I knew it.

I could smell it on her.

Yeah.

Which.

All right, last question.

Fill in the blank.

If you come upon a person afflicted by evil magic and want to see who has harmed them, you can take some of the victim's blank, mix it with rye flour, bake it, and feed it to a dog.

Then you wait to see if the guilty party shows up or gets sick.

What's the blank?

Oh my god.

That is a dangerous game.

I'm going to be safe here and just guess.

Hair.

Tears.

Oh, that's so good.

That is so emo-o-m.

I love that.

Yeah.

I'm edgy.

Well, the answer is urine.

Oh, okay.

It's a little weirder than I even expected.

Okay.

So the victim's urine mixed with rye flour.

You bake it, and the magic dough ball is called a witch cake.

Oh, my.

Yum.

Oh, my.

Delicious.

Yeah.

Well, here's the thing.

You are clearly both witches, but I

don't want you to curse me.

So instead of telling the authorities, let's just continue the exercise.

All right.

I love that you're on our side.

But you kind of also called us out.

So I don't know actually where you stand, but

I'm forced to feel safe with you.

Perfect.

So real quick, the problem about telling a story about a big conspiracy that turns out to be made up is that first-person accounts can't really be trusted.

And because most people from the time period couldn't read or write, a lot of accounts never even existed or were destroyed.

So, anyway, that's my little disclaimer before we get into it.

Great.

Well, by winter of 1689, Salem is a mess.

The war of the Grand Alliance between France and England is spilling over into the colonies, and Salem is flooded with refugees from upstate New York, Nova Scotia, and Quebec.

Paranoia and xenophobia, of course, sets in.

Land disputes are rampant.

Men are dying in skirmishes, leaving their families destitute.

Have you ever spent a winter in Massachusetts?

Oh, we both did.

We literally met in Boston.

Yeah.

We were there in 2014 when people were carving holes out of their doors to get to work.

So

we've suffered.

Yeah.

We're both broke and living in basement apartments.

So we did get snowed in for many days.

But I had whiskey down there, so I was okay.

In the middle of the chaos and uncertainty, there's also a heated family feud taking over the village.

First up, the Putnams.

They're a powerful and paranoid lot, old school conservatives to the bone.

Once big landowners, the Putnams have been hit by hard times.

Many relatives have fallen sick or are dying.

The Putnams are led by a husband and wife team, Thomas Jr.

and Ann Sr.

Ann thinks her family is literally cursed and trusts no one.

Ann's brother James was supposedly behagged by Mary Bradbury, the mother of a romantic rival.

Oh.

What's behagged?

Is that like curse?

I'm looking it up.

Behagged, loss of feelings for someone who was formerly loved.

Oh, we've got an unrequited thing going on.

God.

She got dumped.

Behagged?

Okay, let's bring that back, though.

I know.

You know, had I known that word, I really could have like zhuzhed things up in my own heartbreaks.

But

yeah, next time.

There's one family that the Putnams particularly dislike.

The Proctors.

They include John, his wife Elizabeth, their children, and a 20-year-old servant named Mary Warren.

John Proctor is considered a...

progressive.

Heavy on the quotes there by Puritan standards.

Right.

He's had three wives, which is actually not that scandalous for the time because so many women die in childbirth.

Oh, sure.

But he owns a tavern making money by selling alcohol.

That's very scandalous.

Well, that can't be had.

No, that's just untenable.

He's just a dirty woke liberal, it sounds like.

Yes.

So as the village's families bicker amid the refugee crisis, the all-male committee decides something must be done.

They pour their energy into solving the crisis by securing their own minister.

Is this a good way to solve war and famine?

Bring an outside hire.

Yeah, I don't know.

I don't know about that.

I don't know.

Usually, when men say something must be done, I feel like historically, I can't think of one time where that was smart.

So, in October of 1672, townsfolk can't agree on who the new minister should be or what to pay him.

And every time they hire a guy, somebody tries to stiff him and the village keeps having to sue taxpayers to fork over the minister's salary.

They're like, you want this, I promise.

It's like, you wanted this, and all of a sudden, now we're having more problems, as predicted.

So,

there was one minister, George Burroughs, who quits, then comes back to town to collect his back pay, and he's swiftly arrested by Thomas Putnam's father, John, who Burroughs owes money to.

Oh boy, it's just drama.

Smooth drama.

TLC, come on.

What do you think it means for a society when a pious person has a minister arrested over a few dollars?

Ah, well, when that minister has turned their back on you, I think all bets are off, you know.

You no longer owe them anything.

We are already established that they were so religious that they didn't like hope.

So

all that's off.

Yeah.

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How hard is it to kill a planet?

Maybe all it takes is a little drilling, some mining, and a whole lot of carbon pumped into the atmosphere.

When you see what's left, it starts to look like a crime scene.

Are we really safe?

Is our water safe?

You destroyed our tub.

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So Salem's people really need adult supervision by now.

Enter Reverend Samuel Paris, the new potential minister.

After attending Harvard and failing out of his father's sugar plantation, he gets married, has kids, and decides to, quote, get into the religion business.

Okay, actually, like, not so far off.

I believe he was a Nepo baby who didn't even make it with his own dad.

And he's like, you know what?

Obviously, this is a calling from God.

Paris moves to Salem with his wife Elizabeth.

three children, including nine-year-old Betty, their orphaned cousin, 11-year-old Abigail, and their two slaves, Tituba and John Indian.

Paris is a very strict conservative, a real fire and brimstone kind of guy, and he doesn't tolerate weakness and considers people to be either good or evil.

And then some girls in town start acting strangely.

Legend has it, in January of 1692, Reverend Paris's daughter Betty and his niece Abigail are goofing off, playing a game, maybe trying that Venus glass trick.

I don't know.

They're really interested in their future husband.

However, it starts, when Reverend Paris walks into the room, the girls start having fits, screaming, throwing things, and doing some amateur contortion.

To be honest, that sounds kind of like what I did with my friends anyway, right?

Like just throwing myself around, attempting to do cartwheels, you know, and failing.

Yeah.

Feels like a Friday night when I was 12.

I know with every bit of me that he overreacted.

I know their contortionism was them just trying to like see if they could touch their toes.

Well, however, he reacted in the following weeks, Betty doubles down.

She becomes absent-minded, stares off into space, and starts making animal noises.

Depending on the kid, that behavior is normal, but depending on the strict reverend, there can be an overreaction.

I see.

So prayer doesn't work to calm the girls down.

Home remedies don't work.

And in February, perhaps the worst doctor in the world visits the Paris house.

He decides Betty and Abigail are, quote, under an evil hand.

Of course.

Of course.

Of course.

What other possible reason could there be?

I feel like Mr.

Paris just paid this guy to say that just to back him up because he was feeling insecure.

I also feel like the girls were just like, oh my gosh, you gave me attention.

I'm just going to act out more.

Yeah,

like easy.

Yeah, it's like that classic psychology thing.

Like, oh, you, you tell your kid to stop doing something.

Well, what do you think is going to happen?

Yeah.

Well, one possible explanation that popped up was mass hysteria caused by stress.

Huh.

You want to know something scary?

Mass hysteria is actually still happening today.

And if you want to learn more, Wondery has a brand new limited series called Hysterical, examining both Salem and a much more recent outbreak among teenage girls in Leroy, New York.

You can listen now on Wondery Plus or everywhere, July 22nd.

But back to our story.

The war in Europe keeps impacting the colonies.

Times are hard and everyone is on edge.

The women and girls of Salem are under additional pressure.

Survival depends on their marriage prospects and those are dwindling with every skirmish and harsh winter.

So it's not unreasonable to think that the girls have nervous breakdowns.

They didn't have a live journal or a Zanga or something to like get their feelings out.

They just had to

venting.

Flip around until their feelings went away.

Contort their bodies.

Yeah.

Well, remember Tituba, the enslaved woman owned by Reverend Paris?

Well, on February 25th, while the Reverend and the missus are away, a neighborhood good wife, aka a married lady, visits Tituba, who's busy watching over the children.

The woman wants to help and instructs Tituba to make a witch cake from the girl's urine and some flour.

We love an easy two-ingredient recipe.

Imagine the like one of those Instagram, like you're scrolling and it's just like this weird music under it, and they're like making shoelaces out of something that doesn't.

I feel like that's the perfect five-minute craft.

Oh, God.

And then, of course, there would be comments under it: like, what if I don't like urine?

What if I'm urine intolerant?

Is there maybe a replacement?

Oh, my gosh.

Well, once the cake is fed to the dog, the actual witch should be compelled to show up and reveal herself, or at least stop hurting the girls.

Problem solved.

Easy.

Except, shocker, it doesn't work.

The girls feel worse, and now Tituba is looking pretty sus, practicing magic in the Reverend's household in front of the girls.

Yeah, I guess she would look suspicious if someone snitched on her.

Yeah, but

I told her to do magic and she did it.

But the whole town freaks out.

The children, maybe in over their heads at this point, are forced to identify who cursed them and what luck.

They can suddenly think of three supposed witches.

Oh, no.

Oh, no.

One is Sarah Goode, a beggar woman who's had some minor conflict with Reverend Paris.

Another accused is Sarah Osborne, a sick old lady.

And the third accused is, not shockingly at all, Tituba.

Well, the interrogations begin March 1st.

Okay, here's a question.

How do you prove somebody's a witch?

Oh, I know about some of this.

As someone who was recently diagnosed with eczema, I'd be screwed because I know they look for like freckles or weird marks on your body and determine those are witch marks.

I know that's one, right, Em?

Yeah, any blemish.

Basically, shoot 100 years into the future and it's all about pretty privilege, isn't it?

Where it's like,

if you have a birthmark and I don't like it, you're obviously in cahoots with the devil.

That's true.

That was one of them.

And then the other technique is to see if the accused can recite the Lord's Prayer.

Oh, God.

I could do that.

Yeah, me too.

I had to memorize that, bad boy.

See, so maybe you would have gotten off scot-free.

Okay.

Honestly, if I knew that was an option,

I wouldn't be so mad and resentful about Catholic school, I guess.

Yeah.

Well, Sarah Goode and Sarah Osborne are questioned and they claim to be innocent, but somebody has to be a witch, right?

Seems like Tituba's the easy target.

She has the lowest social status, has made a witch cake, and is from Barbados, which remember these people are very xenophobic.

Right.

But when brought to the stand, Tituba turns the investigation on its head.

Instead of claiming her innocence, she gives everybody a show.

Yes.

I love her.

Yes.

She describes fantastical encounters with otherworldly beings.

She implies she was coerced by a tall, white-haired mystery man.

She admits to signing the devil's book, to seeing the devil and a bunch of other witches, including Sarah Goode and Sarah Osborne.

She said, I'm taking everyone down with me.

And she claims there are nine names in the book, but she could only read those two.

But of course, she can't read, so she's lying.

Right.

Genius.

I really hope it's that because there are some not nice theories that say that she was beaten into confessing.

Oh, that I can absolutely believe.

And unfortunately, that sounds probably pretty realistic.

Bummer, bummer, big bummer.

But nobody knows the truth.

We can live in our fantasy land.

We can hope that we live in our fantasy land.

We're not those Puritans.

We can hope for maybe a better outcome, yeah.

Tituba has performed well, too well.

She's taken the heat off herself, but at what cost?

She's confirmed everybody's greatest fears.

Not only are there indeed witches, but there are even more than they initially thought.

There are now nine potential witches in town, and they're not even sure if the accused are guilty.

Meanwhile, not only do Betty and Abigail feel worse each day, but other girls in town hear about what's going on and catch whatever they have.

One of them is Ann Putnam Jr.

Oh no, wait a second, there's another Ann Putnam.

Yes, Ann Jr.

is the 12-year-old daughter of the conservative paranoid matriarch Ann Putnam Sr.

This is not gonna go well.

Convenient, convenient, convenient or really bad.

Yes, this to say.

From Ann Sr.'s POV, her house is under threat of satanic whatever the heck.

So she and husband Thomas Putnam go to work interrogating their afflicted daughter.

They list off people they don't like to see if Anne can identify them as witches.

They mention Martha Corey, a self-appointed gospel woman.

Ann Sr.

finds her annoying, a bit too holier than thou.

But bingo, when Ann Jr.

hears Martha's name, she claims to go blind.

Oh, gosh.

She then feels pinches and hits from Corey's spirit.

Oh,

gosh, this is just like we all, I mean, you know, hindsight's 2020, but come on, parents, don't they realize they're just feeding right into this?

And I love her flowery language of like, oh, oh, I can't see.

Drama queen.

Well, the Putnams try it again, this time with Rebecca Nurse, the richest woman in Salem.

Clearly a high-falutin witch.

I'm thinking Jessica Lang and Covin.

Yes.

Oh, I love that for her.

And Jr., she confirms it.

Oh, no.

What luck?

Oh, no.

Could she see, though?

I wonder.

That is so crazy.

Like, what on earth are the odds of that?

Like, you can't, I mean, that's proof right there.

Well, more and more people are accused, including Reverend Paris's predecessor, Minister George Burroughs, whom the Putnams don't like because of their old money dispute.

Right.

There had to be one person in town who probably looked like the crazed conspiracy theorist who was like, don't you see it all works together?

They just hate everyone.

Everyone they hate is going down.

Like, get out of town while you can.

Yeah, red string bored up.

And everyone's like, no, you're crazy for thinking that this is all a conspiracy, but

someone had to think it.

Probably too scared to be accused of being a witch.

I would say it's probably a little risky.

You know who else would be convenient to be a witch?

That mercantile family, the Proctors.

And lo and behold, Anne Jr.

confirms Elizabeth Proctor is indeed a possible witch.

Not exactly helping the Proctors case is Mary Warren, John Proctor's maid, who is maybe feeling a little left out of all of the fun.

Mary starts seeing visions too.

Specifically, John Proctor's specter, specifically in her lap.

Oh,

okay.

Okay.

Yeah.

Plot twist.

Odd place for a ghost to pop up.

Yeah, I would argue that's a new one.

Yeah.

Well, this, by some historians, might be a hint at some weird affair.

Uh-huh.

And vengeful mistresses do factor into the story of Arthur Miller's The Crucible.

That's right.

So

well, what does John Proctor do?

He calls her a lying jade.

aka a disreputable woman and hits her.

Hits her.

What?

So Elizabeth is accused, John is accused.

And the Proctor children are all accused.

And even though Mary Warren just pointed the finger at John, she also lands in the accused pile.

Really awkward in the jail cell when you're looking at each other.

That's such a good point.

Well, thankfully, because of turmoil in the colonial government, all all proceedings have been investigative up until this point, and nobody has been found guilty.

On the downside, nobody's been exonerated either.

That all changes in May, when the new royal governor, William Phipps, establishes a special court to hear and decide on the cases of witchcraft.

This court, against sensible advice, decides to allow spectral evidence in court testimony.

That's lunacy.

Okay,

sure.

So, spectral evidence meaning dreams, visions,

like ghosts or big mysterious animals.

Who knows?

Again, not allowed to hope, but you can have a dream of a person and immediately they are on the chopping block.

Yeah.

Yep.

The first to come before the court is Bridget Bishop, a thrice-married woman who likes wearing bold colors like red and black.

Must be a witch.

Untenable.

The afflicted girl suggests she murdered a previous husband who probably deserved it

and there was probably rumor about that anyway right like they're just feeding into stories that have probably already gone around town and oh in 1682 a lady accused bridget of stealing a spoon can you believe uh no

so Let's act out an excerpt from her trial.

M, will you play the part of John Hathorne, who interrogated the accused witches happily and christine will you be bridget bishop not only have you been accused of witchcraft but the afflicted girls are present in court and are shrieking every time you answer a question so it's not looking good misha are you gonna play the ones shrieking in the background i'll just

i'll just randomly shriek agree okay okay action

I have no familiarity with the devil.

How is it then that your appearance doth hurt these, the afflicted?

I am innocent.

Why do you seem to act witchcraft before us by the motion of your body, which seems to have influence upon the afflicted?

I know nothing of it.

I am innocent to a witch.

I know not what a witch is.

How do you know then that you are not a witch?

I am innocent of a witch.

Bravo.

Oh, wow, that was beautiful.

Bravo.

Now, what do you think happened here?

It feels so gaslighting of like, she's like, I don't even know what a witch is.

And they're like, well, then how do you know you're not a witch?

It's like, that sounds so gaslighty.

It just sounds like all my exes.

Just like

toxic.

Just, well, how do you know?

So toxic.

Just trapping people in corners.

Well, she's hanged.

Oh, my God.

Uh-oh.

Okay, I didn't play my part that well, I guess.

Sorry about that.

I tried.

I tried to sound convincing.

Well, finally seeing this is serious.

The wealthy Rebecca nurse, who's been on Ann Putnam's kill list since the beginning, hopes her money, connections, connections, and reputations can save her.

Yeah.

She petitions the court for mercy and explains she's a good person.

With lots of money.

Come on.

I think if I were in her position, I'd be doing the exact same thing.

I'd be like, give me a number.

All of a sudden, I won't be a witch.

Whatever you need, just give me a number.

Yeah.

Well, unfortunately, the trial doesn't go well.

Oh, boy.

Rebecca's daughter-in-law maybe even sees one of the afflicted girls stabbing herself with a clothespin and blaming Rebecca's sorcery for the wounds.

Okay, yeah.

In July, Rebecca's put to death with four other accused witches, including Sarah Goode the beggar.

I don't know why I have the audacity to be shocked.

I'm gonna keep gasping as if I don't know how this story ends, but every time it's just like so startling.

It keeps going.

In August, the court tries and hangs John Proctor alongside Salem's former minister, Reverend George Burroughs.

He's hanged too?

Oh, my Lord.

Elizabeth Proctor is convicted as well, but her execution execution is put on hold because she turns out to be pregnant.

Still, five are hanged in August.

By the way, no one is burned at the stake in Salem.

Interesting.

That's something that happened in Merry Old England, but

boy, did they hang a lot of people.

Yeah, they've got new tactics in the Promised Land.

Okay, gotcha.

There was only one instance of anything other than hanging, and that happened to a stubborn old grump named Giles Corey.

What do you think think is going to happen to this guy?

Unfortunately, I already know because

you know why?

Because the moment I heard it, it decided to lodge in my subconscious for the rest of time.

I was so disturbed.

Well, at 81 years old,

which is so impressive for this period of time.

He was a witch, actually.

Yeah.

The court decides to try a technique called pen forte et d'ure.

Any French speakers know what this is?

They're not here to say yes or no.

Stop looking around the room.

Nobody on my head.

It means strong and hard punishment.

Oh,

honestly, kinky and also like really beautiful when said in French.

Like that could kind of catch on too, I think.

Yeah, if someone said they were going to do that to me, I'd go, okay.

And then I'd realize, I'm open.

What's that about?

Well, they put a plank on top of him and load it up with heavy rocks until he agrees to go to trial.

Instead, Giles remains silent and is pressed under the weight and dies.

Wow, it's like I applaud the stubbornness, but like, if I stub my toe, I'm out for the day.

So, for like they'd put the board on, and I'd be like, enough.

They wouldn't have even put one rock.

I admit it.

I mean, anyone know of any jokes to lighten the mood?

Because this is getting heavy.

It's almost as if we're in between a rock and a hard place.

All right, okay.

So, as it turns out, Giles Corey's brave protest does nothing to move the needle.

Eight more are hanged in September, including Martha Corey, Giles' wife.

Oh, these people can't catch a break.

So, do you have any idea as to what ends up stopping this thing?

At this point, I feel like all of them will just keep pointing fingers at each other until there's no more people left in Salem.

I don't know.

Nepotism.

Oh,

a classic.

Saves the day again.

So the afflicted girls are having a ball accusing people left and right, but they get a little too big for their bodice strings and start accusing established rich people.

Lady Mary Phipps is questioned for helping an accused witch.

Only witches help witches, right?

Well, she's married to Massachusetts Bay Governor William Phipps.

So that's enough of all this nonsense.

So in October, Governor Phipps bans the use of spectral evidence, prohibits the arrest of witches, and releases 49 of 52 witches still in prison.

And the court is officially dissolved.

Funny how no matter what era you go to, it only matters when it affects you.

Like, this is what I mean about them being 12-year-olds, because this sounds like the entire premise is that mean girls were bullying a whole town, but it just got taken way too fucking far their burn book included the wife of the wrong guy you know what i mean then all of a sudden they got too close to the sun man well that's not the end of the story

another court is formed to continue the trial

in a slightly more legitimate way it will not allow spectral evidence however there's still enough supposed evidence to sentence three more witches to death well so much for being legitimate They're like, we have the room for three more.

We'd built gallows for three more.

Jeez.

By the end of 1693, Governor Phipps pardons all of the people imprisoned for witchcraft.

That's a relief for the imprisoned, but he can't bring back the 20 who were already executed.

So now it's time to have trials for the people.

who falsely accuse people, right?

Oh boy, that's awkward.

Wrong.

Oh,

I thought that was so awkward.

Okay, okay, wrong.

Great.

No, in the years that follow, there isn't much retribution.

People just slowly start living their lives again.

Wow.

I do wonder what it was probably like the couple months after.

Because do you think some people

still thought the witchcraft was real?

Or do you think everyone's looking around being like, can we finally say it?

No one was a witch.

No one was a witch.

Can we say it?

How many people were actually convinced versus just like went along with it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

People were just like, can we finally stop eating piss cakes?

And then that one person's like, yeah, I hate them so much.

Let's stop eating them.

You can just drop them off at my house.

It's fine.

Reverend Paris does quit his post in 1696, and nobody tries to change his mind.

In January of 1697, the Massachusetts General Court declares a public day of fasting to commemorate and atone for the witch trials.

Okay.

Does a day of fasting feel like a big enough way to say, sorry?

Yeah, I know from the afterlife, I'd be like, are you kidding me?

And then now you know people cheated and like from the afterlife also, you're seeing like, you can't even spend one day not eating.

Yeah.

Not snacking.

Yeah, actually, a real apology happens in 1706 when Ann Putnam Jr., the 12-year-old accuser, now in her 20s, confesses to wrongdoing.

And Christine, how about you read the beginning of her statement for us?

I desire to be humbled before God for that sad and humbling providence that befell my father's family in the year about 92, that I, then being in my childhood, should, by such a providence of God, be made an instrument for the accusing of several persons of a grievous crime, whereby their lives were taken away from them, whom now I have just grounds and good reason to believe they were innocent persons.

Well, so she said this in her 20s.

I must have been like her deathbed at that point.

Titsuba was pardoned for witchcraft along with everybody else.

Right.

Miraculously, she survived the witch trials.

Hey, girl.

That's, I mean, really, I'm glad.

I'm surprised.

I'm surprised, but I'm glad.

So impressive.

Well, let's do a little, where are they now?

I think I know.

In 1711, the Massachusetts colony restored the good names of the condemned and offered monetary compensation to their families.

Wow.

In 1957,

Massachusetts formally apologized.

1951.

Talking long enough.

1757.

They waited till after World War II.

Yeah, once nobody was around to even hear it.

That's nice.

Yeah.

But for some reason, They left out the name of Elizabeth Johnson Jr., the last person convicted of being a witch.

Ooh, I smell a conspiracy.

But then in 2022, a group of eighth-grade civic students lobbied for an official pardon for Elizabeth Johnson Jr., so her name was finally cleared.

I love the youth.

They are favoritely sad.

This is our priority.

Nothing else in 2022 could possibly be as big as this.

And you know what?

They were right.

I am so proud of them.

It feels very full circle, though, that it took long enough, but eventually, you know, who ended up saving the day?

12-year-olds.

Kids.

Yes, they kind of started it, but they kind of ended it.

Isn't that weird?

Yeah.

So, even today, experts disagree on events and motivations, but one popular explanation for the mass hysteria has been that the villagers suffered from ergo poisoning, basically tripping balls on moldy rye bread.

Oh, wow.

And therefore, hallucinating malevolent spirits.

As fun as that sounds, it's apparently not true.

Oh.

Historian Marilyn K.

Roach says that psychosis-inducing ergo poisoning comes with gangrene and somebody probably would have mentioned a gangrene act.

Interesting.

Here in the big flop, we always try to end on like a positive note.

So are there any silver linings that you can think of that came about from the Salem witch trials?

I think my favorite silver lining is that kids are the ones who ended ended up making sure that the courts actually apologize to everybody.

I think that's so weirdly beautiful.

Very wholesome.

I would agree, but also I think just witch culture, you know, is back in a big way.

And I think that reclamation is kind of nice.

I mean, I'm not saying it was worth it for all those people to pass, obviously.

But, you know, I just went to Salem and I feel like they really have reclaimed that vibe.

I do feel bad for the women who died because they were accused of witchcraft and actually were so anti-witchcraft?

And now the silver lining is that, well, witchcraft is big now.

And they're like, oh, well, it's like great.

That's not at all what I wanted.

Wrong century.

Yeah.

I mean, that was one of the silver linings that, you know, I thought of was this is like what we call a teachable moment, literally, because this is like the segment in school's history that kids actually pay attention to.

That is such a good point.

Yeah.

Well, now that you both know about the Salem witch trials, would you consider this a baby flop, a big flop, or a mega flop?

Well, I would have to argue the answer.

Mega flop, because

imagine getting canceled for saying that killing 20 people with no good reason is just like a little mini flop.

Oops.

Yes, and oopsie deal.

I mean, for me, it's an easy answer.

But I did just listen to your JCPenney episode, and it's kind of pretty on par with that, too.

So it's hard to say on a scale where it falls, but I would say

probably pretty big.

Agree.

Well, thank you so much to our bewitching guests, M.

Schultz and Christine Schieffer, for joining us here on the Big Flop.

And thanks to all of you for listening.

If you want to dive even deeper into Salem, there's an entire season about the witch trials on the wondery show American History Tellers.

Check it out.

If you're enjoying the show, please leave us a rating and review.

We'll be back next week with the whack herd round the world.

It's Tanya Harding's Conspiracy of Olympic Proportions.

Bye.

Bye.

If you like the Big Flop, you can listen early and ad-free on Wondery Plus.

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The Big Flop is a production of Wondery and At-Will Media, hosted by me, Misha Brown, produced by Sequoia Thomas, Harry Huggins, and Tina Turner.

Written by Anna Rubinova.

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