The All-Positive NBA Show With Kirk Goldsberry

Coming up next, are you feeling positive, Kirk Goldsberry?

I'm feeling extremely positive, Bill Simmons.

We are going to go so positive on the NBA.

And that's next.

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We did Friday Night Lights. It is basically the 28th anniversary of that movie.
Came out 20 years ago. Meet Malo Rubin, one of the best football movies of all time.
It's age really nice. Are you a fan of Kurt Goldsberry, Friday Night Lights? Of course.
I mean, it's Texas. It's like the New Testament of Texas, I think.
I love it. Well, now the movies become underrated, which is one of the things, one of the reasons we want to do that podcast.
Anyway, you can watch that on The Ringer Movies. You can watch it as a Spotify video podcast as well.
You can watch all the videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel.

You can hear Kirk Goldsberry.

He's popping all over the place

on the Ringer NBA show.

He's written some pieces for the Ringer.

He's going to be on in one second with me

because we are doing the all positive

end of the year NBA podcast.

It's next.

First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

All right, Kurt Goldsberry is here. We are taping this on Tuesday morning, New Year's Eve, trying to put this up before everybody goes out.
And we are doing an all positive NBA podcast. Kurt, the NBA has taken a lot of hits, even on this podcast in a couple of ways.
A lot of complaining, a lot of nitpicking, a lot of people forgetting what the league was like 10 years, 20 years, 30 years ago, and holding on to some ideal of something I'm not positive really existed. But what I want to do today is no negativity at all.
All the positive storylines, all the things I'm excited about. But before we get into it, do you think this is overboard with people complaining about the season this year? Because I actually feel like we hit that point about two weeks ago.
Yeah, I got sick of it. It is.
We're toughest though. Everybody's going through the holidays, right? We're toughest on the ones we love the most.
That's one of the things you learn as a parent. Yeah.
to think about it. Yeah.
Yeah. And we have high standards for the NBA, Bill, don't we? It's a product that we cherish.
It's been with us for our whole lives. So I think a lot of it comes from a good place, honestly.
But there's been a lot of people just waiting, I feel like, to take shots at the NBA that have used this recent sort of news cycle as a chance to just get their grievances out. And frankly, it has gotten to be a little too much.
Yeah. And this happens with anything.
This happens with bands. It happens with actors.
It happens with writers where you just become convinced things were better five years ago, 10 years ago. And that's just the way it is.
The NBA is really good right now. And we're going to go through a whole bunch of things, but I just want to start here.
And we're going to go, yeah, I asked you to come up with some things you want to hit as well. I have a bunch of them.
The number one thing I want to hit though, is just basketball is better played now than it ever was. And it's not close.
It's not an argument. The players are more skilled.
They shoot better. The games are more high scoring.
The scoring is better in the games. The defense is better.
The skill is better. I would urge people to really watch closely some of these games.
One of the things that's changed for me, just from a skill level that I constantly marvel at, especially I went to a Clippers Warriors game in person a couple of days ago. The ability for people to just drive and then throw these one-handed, perfectly placed passes to guys in the corner, nobody was doing that 10 years ago.
And now you have 70, like Tyler Hero is basically Joe Burrow on those. And you wouldn't think of him as a good passer, but I'm just so impressed over and over again with how skilled these dudes are.
And I don't think people see it or the people that do see it, maybe we're not loud enough, but am I crazy thinking these guys are just better than they used to be? Hell no. In fact, I feel like somebody told me, you know, small ball was about the 2010s were about small ball.
We're halfway through the 2020 tier bill. And we might call it skill ball, I think, because even the big dudes like Jokic and Embiid and Wemby, name a center from 2004 or 1994.
Could they do anything that Jokic did? Maybe Rashid Wallace. There were some guys that were super skilled that could shoot the ball and pass and dribble.

Well, it's basically Rasheed.

Rasheed was the guy everyone pointed to and said,

oh my God, this guy, he can shoot from outside.

He can post up. And we held him up to this crazy level.

And he was like 16 points a game.

Yeah, I agree.

And I think LeBron helped change that too.

He's like, I'm going to be a five to a player

to borrow the term from baseball. And like this generation does everything.
Everybody does everything. Dribble, pass and shoot.
And skill has never been this high. And it's one of the reasons offenses are scoring so much.
It's not just the lack of defense. It's these offensive skills have made the offensive end almost impossible to defend.
So I think it's fair to say that the talent pool of the NBA, the 500 dudes in that league at any given time, this is the best group of 500 basketball players we've ever had. I don't even think it's close.
And I also think it's probably the best top 50 we've ever had by far. Like I was looking at 2025 versus 2005.
So in 2025, we're averaging 113 points a game. In 2005, we averaged 97.2, 16 points less.
We're shooting better now. We're 46.4% field goal.
We were 44.7 in 2005. Three-point shooting slightly better, 35.9.
It was 35.6. Assists were five higher a game.
They're shooting 21.5 more threes a game. But everyone points to that.
And really, we changed long twos and bad post-ups for threes. And I'm fine with the trade.
I would rather watch somebody shoot a three. I think when people, including me, have complained about the NBA, and again, we're trying to go all positive, there's a sameness to what they're watching.
And what it really is, it's not the threes. To me, it's the pick for the guy 30 feet from the basket at the top.
It's the over and over again of two guys in the corner and one or two picks coming up for somebody like Tatum, whoever it is, Jalen Burtz, it could be anybody. And just seeing that over and over again, the sameness of it, I think that's what people are thinking of.
It's not the fact that we're shooting more threes because they're making more threes and we have more skilled players. I don't know how you fix the sameness and I'm not sure I care.
Where do you stand on that? I think they've got to move the line. And again, I'm staying positive here, but you started with the guys throwing to the corner.
Well, one of the reasons those guys are so good at throwing to the corner is every trip down that there's two guys in the corners the whole time, every time, you know, that wasn't true. There's just guys there.
I don't think, and we're probably going to talk about Jokic and Wemby and Shea. I mean, if you're really watching the game, there's not that much sameness.

I agree.

And again, you started the podcast by talking about

people forgot what we were watching.

Dump it down to McHale or Parrish or Mike Jeminski.

You have to remember,

this wasn't Jordan and Bird every night.

Sometimes it was the Mavericks and Bullets.

And there used to be some pretty repetitive actions

in the post-up era of the NBA that weren't fantastic, so to speak. So I think it is relatively fair, but it's not new to say that the NBA is kind of homogenous at times.
Well, and the other thing, and one of the things that I think has been so great about this season, we have so many good guards. And I look back to that first half of the 2000s when everyone was complaining and I was doing my bit about how I was one of the last 20 NBA fans.
Even the guys that were the best guys, they were all doing Jordan imitations to some degree. They were these guards that had the ball for a shitload.
And even you look at the all-NBA and the all-stars from that, it was like that was the Gilbert Arenas era. That was T-Mac with the ball at the time.
That was Kobe with the ball at the time. That was why we latched on to Steve Nash and the Sun so much because the style they were playing was different.
Wade had the ball at the time. LeBron had the ball at the time.
But it wasn't the same kind of smart offense we have now because the spacing was the same had these guys that had the ball at the time, but they're also playing with centers clogging the lane. And we had power forwards back then.
They kind of didn't know where to put them because they couldn't space. You had like the Vin Baker, Antoine Walker, like these guys that were just, I guess Antoine could shoot some threes.
So Mario Stoudemire, people trying to figure out how to use these big guys. And now those big guys can pop out and they can do pop and picks.
And I just think the product's better. I don't think there's, go back and watch, go on YouTube and watch just a random 2005 regular season game.
We were all like, what are we going to do about this league? This is bad. How do we fix this? And I think they fixed a lot of it.
And to me, it's a positive, not a negative. Yeah, the three-point line has made basketball a lot better.
The 2010s brought us pace and space. D'Antoni had the controls for those Suns teams, but also that sort of heliocentric offense in Houston that really figured out how to sort of spam a superstar over and over and over again, but to great effect to make their offense some of the best in the NBA.
I don't always love Harden. I know Russillo and I vibe on that point.
Yeah, I don't know that. But aligning that hyper-usage superstar, that guard, that skill with spacing and smart plays and high screen rolls has been effective and made possessions more successful in general.
But I think the game is more open and if you like scoring, it's definitely more fun to watch now than an average NBA game. And this, again, is something I've been noticing, like Jordan this, Jordan that.
Jordan was only one of 30 teams, right? So an average NBA game in the 90s was not Michael Jordan. And I think people forget

that, Bill. It's like the replacement level game from the 90s was not a great product.

Well, I have, this is another thing I have, which ties into this. The watchable basketball across

the board, I think people really take for granted now. And I would urge people to go back and look

at the bottom rung of teams in 2015. That was when we had Philly in the process.
Or in 2005, you just had these broken teams that were stuck with these terrible salary cap roster decisions. You had the Marbury Knicks.
You had the Celtics stuck with Paul Pierce and Ricky Davis and Vin Baker's terrible contract, which turned into

Rafe LaFrance's terrible contract. You go around the league, even like LeBron was stuck on a terrible Cavs team for three years.
You go around the league, there was 10 to 15 unwatchable teams. I look at the bad teams now and the bad teams, Portland, Charlotte, Washington, New Orleans, Toronto, Utah

I can watch all of those teams

I like watching Utah. New Orleans is the most fascinating five and 28 team.
I think we've ever had the history of the league. I watched them last night play right down to the wire against the Clippers.
Charlotte's got LaMelo and Brandon Miller. Portland, where our Justin Barrier is located now, Portland's fun to watch.
They've got a lot of weird pieces. They have guys who can spring for 35 at any night.
Compared to where we were 10 years ago, it's no contest. The league is so much deeper and more entertaining.
Do you see that too? Is there anybody I'm missing? No, I was just saying the average league pass game right now is way better than it's ever been. Way better.
Tonight's game, we have Clippers-Spurs. That's not a bad game.
We have Timberwolves in OKC. That's a great game.
Grizzlies at Suns. That's a great game.
Cavs at Lakers. That's a great game.
That's just tonight. Those are your options on New Year's Eve if you're going to watch a game before you go out.
That's a great set of games. And again, we can't just judge everything by, oh, Jordan versus the Knicks was incredible in the 90s.
Well, the Mavs versus the Bullets was not. And I think the average NBA game in 2024 as we hit 2025 is a very good product relative to where we came from.
I remember the first year I did Countdown. There weren five playoff teams you wanted to see.
Like I remember it was either 2013 or 14. There was just some Bulls net series that felt like it was going on for five weeks.
You know, that was in 2013. We had Memphis make the conference finals with that like Zeebo Gasol.
Nobody could make a three. They had no spacing at all.
There was some good stuff too. Like the 2014 Spurs were just, you know, a revelation and really great.
And I think when people think about basketball before we moved into this three crazy era, the 2014 Spurs and especially what they did to Miami, that's kind of the ideal for the old way of basketball that tied to the 1970 Knicks and the 74 Celtics and the Russell Celtics. There's ball movement, everything built around a big guy, guards who could attack.
Those days are over because everybody can shoot threes down. We're just not going to have a team like the 2014 Spurs again.
But I would urge people to go back, Even Miami, who had LeBron during this incredible MVP heat check run, and Wade and Bosh, they're pretty tough to watch in 2014. They could barely put together seven guys.
Now all the best teams have seven to 11 guys. Pritchard's the seventh guy in the Celtics and can score 25 any night.
So I just think it's no contest right now. Yeah, I agree.
I think the 2014 Spurs is probably my favorite basketball team in my life. That's a special team for me.
Beautiful game. Good to great.
Manu, Tim, Kawhi, all firing on all cylinders. It was a great team.
Yeah, not ancient history, but sort of becoming old school. And I think that team was as deep as it gets to remember their bench the foreign legion had a bunch of international players they were ahead of their time with ball movement player movement and this international stuff but spectacular aesthetics on the court it's probably an unfair standard for an average nba team again an average game but uh yeah like the games that i mentioned tonight those are greats don't just stay there.
They're playing with a lot of movement. They're great on both ends of the floor.
And then you get to watch the Lakers. So LeBron playing Cleveland.
There's just great games, great players almost every game tonight, for instance. I think the league's in a good place.
Did you have the Cavs on your list? I didn't,

but I have a related one. What do you got on the Cavs,

Bill?

They killed Golden State last night. The Cavs

are 27-4.

When we're talking about

in the All Positive NBA podcast,

the Cavs are just great to watch.

In a lot of

ways, they inverted what the Celtics did last year, where instead of being built around these two great wings like the Celtics were with three-point shooting and defense, they inverted it where they're built around these two great guards with three-point shooting and with defense. And if you're not ready for them on the wrong night or you think you're ready for them but you not, or they're hitting shots, they're basically unbeatable.
I don't know how this is going to translate to the playoffs yet, but the fact that we have them and OKC, who is on a winning streak right now, who's going to win 60-plus games, who's just a regular season monster, and then the sleeping giant Celtics team, who just clearly is on cruise control now until March, April. But then some of the other teams we have, like just the depth of contenders at the top and the unpredictability of figuring out, even though I'm in the, oh, it's going to be OKC Boston camp.
But like I watched Cleveland last night, I'm like that Cleveland's going to be tough. Like Boston's got to get their shit together.
Cleveland's probably getting the one seed. Boston's going to have to win a playoff game in a series in Cleveland.

And that team is about as confident as it gets right now.

So I would throw them in too in the all positive pod.

Yeah.

And I would say, you know, we got on here before the season.

I said, hey, look out for Cleveland.

I think they can get the two seed.

And right now, like obviously at the season ends today, they're the one seed.

And then the other team I'd put in there,

and one of the general themes of the first part of this, the East isn't as bad as we thought it was in the first few weeks. And the other team I got to put in there is the New York Knicks.
Yeah. And that's sort of a related one here, Bill.
Let's go. The NBA is so much better when the New York Knickerbockers are good.
And MSG is hosting games in April and May. Bing bong.
They've won nine of their last 10. Their defenses come around.
Their starting five slash closing five is legit. They could pass the Celtics, depending on how your team does on this road trip in early 2025.
They could be the two seed here in a few days. But I think the East has three very good teams.
I'm with you. I'm still taking Boston.
I think they're tired from the Olympics and their playoff run last year. But I think the Cleveland Cavaliers and the New York Knicks, we could sort of pair these and be like, look, East Coast basketball is good.
And if Philly has a pulse now and can come around and Milwaukee's good, look, the East has as many good teams as the West right now, period. And I wasn't saying that at the beginning of the year.

And I think it's good for the league and its ratings

when the Eastern time zone has some good basketball.

So I think if we loop all this together,

I think it's a really good storyline for the league in 2025

that the East is pretty good.

Well, and don't count out the zombie magic.

Of course.

They're just kind of wandering around in a dark, empty building

with like, it's Tristan DeSoba. And like, fucking where'd this guy come from? You know, the Knicks, they're a half game behind the Celtics.
All the Celtic fans I know, including myself, are very focused on it. They have two players playing just out of control.
Fantastic. And I want to talk about them in a little bit.
The big thing for them is is they got bridges going and i remember saying at the start of the year i don't know three weeks in i was like what was the point of this bridges trade if they're just going to make him this accessory that stands in the corner like this is a really good offensive player who's we've watched him carry a nets team a couple years ago and they would actually run crunch time stuff. Why are they just kind of sticking them over there?

You look at his November stats,

he was,

you know,

14.7 points a game,

29% from three.

Um,

he took in November,

15 games.

How many free throws do you think he took?

He should average two a game.

So I'd say 30. Yeah.
He took six. So I look at that and I'm just like, you're just playing in this guy in the corner, and that was what the eye test was backing him up.
But in December, it really seems like they tried to get him involved. He had that big day last week, but he's at 21 and a half a game now, and he's kind of moved into that, him and Ananobi kind of sharing that number three score thing.
Some of that's predictable, but some of it seemed pretty bleak for him in November. It's like, what are we doing with this guy? Especially with everything you gave up.
Now, I think they've figured out at least the four. The thing that worries me about them is there's going to be a couple of buyout guys in February and that's a number one buyout candidate team.
Because you're going to a team that has a chance to make the finals. You're going to play.
You get to be in New York City. If I'm making buyout destination, if I'm whoever, I'm looking at them.
It's too bad there's not a Villanova center that they could put next to town. So I don't think they have.
Who else has had that team? Is Chris Jenkins available? That's exactly right. But that's it in all seriousness.
I love OKC because they have two different frontcourt looks when Chet's right and Hartenstein's right. I feel like that's the weakness right now, especially against Porzingis or Giannis.
They need, and I'm not sure what Mitchell Robinson's going to bring come playoff time, but if they can get a real sturdy five, they're not going to get a Gobert, but just a traditional five that could let them go big, play big against some of these rim-pressuring teams, especially in Milwaukee or Philadelphia. I think they're in great shape.
Now, their defense is already, I think it's number two in the last 10 games. They've won nine of those 10 games.
Their defense is good. I just, if they really want to get over the hump bill, I think they need to have a couple of different looks in that front court.
And right now that's sort of the weakness with Towns only. Maybe a little Mitch Robinson in there.
I think they need, they have Miss Hartensteinstein. Somebody like that, if they could get on the biomarker or even in trademark, somebody could come in and give them a traditional five up front.
I want to keep going on the next, but let's take a break. This episode is brought to you by the Wells Fargo Active Cash Credit Card.
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All right, two more things on the Knicks

that tie into what you said

about why this has been a good season

in the All Positive NBA podcast.

We have to keep going on this.

One, Towns.

Last two years, 21, eight rebounds.

This 50-40 guy,

I kind of felt like he had maxed out

from a potential standpoint,

but it was hard to tell how much had to do with Gobert being on the court with him. He was always 25 feet from the basket on offense.
Ant was starting to have the ball a lot. And it was like, well, maybe on this next team, there's a case if you're playing them as like the stretch five, but he also has this rebounding block shot burden.
Maybe there's something else here. Well, there's something else here.
He's 24 and a half points, 13.5 rebounds, 55% field goal, 45% from three. I test wise, the most fun I've had watching him and the concerns we had in the summer about this guy in New York.
I don't know, man. He's a little weird.
There's a version of this where this goes bad. It's been the opposite.
I think this is... Actually, they brought out the best in him and I think they've really responded to him and I think they have a great fan base.
I think they understand let's constantly get this guy going. Let's really be super duper supportive of him.
And it's working. And this is the most fun I've had watching him play basketball on top of the Brunson piece and how good those guys are playing off each other already.
And that's only going to get better as the season goes. Gigantic win.
Did you see this from Towns? Had you given up? No, this team, this front office has made me feel dumb over and over again. I didn't, I didn't love the Brunson deal.
I didn't hate it by any means, but I certainly didn't see that coming. Um, and then the trade, I thought I'd like to trade better for Minnesota.
Yeah. Hand up, uh, and credit to Towns, credit to Leon Rose, credit to Tom Thibodeau.
They've won that trade, I think, hands down. The Bridges trade, again, looked like a disaster there for a few weeks.
I'm not sure I love it to this point given how much they gave up. But this team now looks very good and all those transactions look great.
The bridge is one. I'll

reserve some judgment for it until we

fully see it. But

Towns, I didn't see this. I was worried

about him in the New York media as well.

I'm still worried about him as the primary

interior defender in the playoffs.

Like I said, I think that's a fair point

to sort of hold back.

But Towns and company

have proved me wrong. They built this team

in an era where Trey's and free agents are sort of

less powerful than ever and the best teams

I'm just... sort of hold back.
But Towns and company have proved me wrong. They built this team, and then Arrowware trades and free agents, you're sort of less powerful than ever, and the best teams tend to be building with the draft more.
The New York Dicks sort of built this team from other teams' players, and it's very good. And I think they deserve credit for it, but it's working very well, Bill.
They took a real gamble with how expensive that deal was. And we talked about it last summer.
I didn't love the deal for either team. It made more sense from a talent standpoint for the Knicks, but the money was so disarming.
You just look at it and you're like, man, if we miss on this, there's no moves like, man, we are now pushing all the chips in. But it worked out and it's been great.
And I really like Towns, even though he's such a dumbass sometimes on the court. And we would always, Russell and I would always make fun of him during the playoffs because he would just get the fifth foul in the third quarter and the worst part, 40 feet from the basket, just bumping over somebody on a pick.
But he seems like a good guy. And by all accounts, he is.
And you could see when he came back to Minnesota, you know, what he meant to the franchise, but just how his Knicks teammates reacted to him in Minnesota when they showed the video. It's just like clearly really liked.
And I'm just glad it worked out because we've seen this league, a lot of these guys, sometimes when it feels like they can go either way from a talent standpoint, sometimes it goes the wrong way. Like you look at Zion right now.
Leading to the second thing, this I also love about the league and the All Positive NBA podcast. Dallas not locking up Jalen Brunson leads to this amazing kind of sliding doors, dominoes situation.
It leads to Brunson leads to this amazing kind of sliding doors, domino situation. It leads to Brunson in New York and all of these other things that happen with them where they become a really fun, legitimate contender for a fan base that's needed it for 20 years.
It eventually leads to Kyrie in Dallas and him rejuvenating his career. And I, you know, being one of the 15 to 20 most fun guys to watch in the league again, I'd given up on that.
It happened. It caused a Brooklyn rebuild because Kyrie had a chance to go to Dallas.
So that leads to whatever and them trading Kyrie and KD. So why is the Brooklyn rebuild important? Because Donovan Mitchell, who wanted to go to New York City, and I will die on that hill, had nowhere to go.
Brunson goes to the Knicks, becomes the guy. Well, he can't go there.
Brooklyn sucks. Well, what am I going to go there for? It's like you know what you got.
You don't know what you don't have. And he's looking around this Cleveland team and it's like, man, this team's really good.
Maybe I should, maybe I should stop thinking about what's next and just kind of lock it down here. Signs the extension.
Now they become a legitimate contender. That team falls into place.
That team's super selfless. And I honestly, as weird as it sounds, I think it starts with the Brunson thing.
And now we have a Knicks legitimate contender. We have Kyrie as a piece of a finals team last year.
We have the Cavs as a legitimate contender and Brooklyn as the most fun summer team next summer. Yeah, that's a great take.
I love that. And I think like the Western Conference talent, like Brunson, Donovan, Mitchell, and Towns going from West to East.
We talked about the Celtics are the favorites, but the Eastern Conference needed a talent infusion. And I think these transactions sort of bolstered, again, the Cavaliers are a story of Donovan Mitchell going to Cleveland and then this Knicks team has two really big Western Conference imports at the top of the box score every night.
So I think that those transactions, that's a great point. So now who can we get from the Western Conference to move East next, Bill? I mean, it's like so much more.
Zion's next. There you go.
Who can save Zion? One other thing with Brunson and then you're up next with positive. I'm just in disbelief how good Brunson is.
And I think we take it for granted now in a way because he just does it night after night with this herky-jerky, these different spots on the court, his ability even at the end of games to always get the shot he wants. The crunch time stats with him are out of control.
Like John Schumann had in his power rankings thing yesterday that Brunson, he was on a crunch time streak where his usage rate was like 46%, which is like 98 finals Jordan, not as high as that. And over and over again, teams know what they're going to do.
And he gets the shot he wants. I actually liked the signing for them when they got him because I really liked Brunson.
I also never in a million years thought he was going to be this good. I thought he could be the piece of a really good team.
Maybe the best guard on a contender. Not this.
And you watch him night to night and all the other guys kind of make sense as awesome crunch time guys. Even somebody like Shea.
It's very he's just gonna get he's either gonna get to the rim or he's gonna get like his little 12 to 15 spot i've seen that i've seen there are guys in the 70s that did that the brunson thing i don't know if i've seen before that like his arsenal of weird shots and and herky jerky he'd be a fucking nightmare to defend anyway i wanted to mention that Yeah mention that. Yeah, he's also a great sort of rebuke of the idea that everybody plays the same.
Here's this undersized guard going and playing two feet in the paint like John Wooden is his coach, doing all these pivots and drop steps and floaters and pull-ups. He's just so talented and so smart.
He's got the Kevin McHale footwork as a guard in the paint. And it's brilliant to watch.
But dude, if the Mavs knew that this guy was going to be putting up 50 in playoff games, I think they would have had a different whiteboard strategy before they let him go. I think he would still be in Dallas.
Nobody saw this coming. I don't think the Knicks knew he could do this.
And of course, they should say they did. But man, he's been a revelation.
And the other thing I'd say just on the Knicks is it's not only they're good, you mentioned this earlier, the vibes are immaculate and they're fun. They're a fun group of guys.
It's a fun team to watch. Might be hard for a Celtics fan to admit, but it's sort of a neutral observer.
I like the Knicks. Because they're fans.
They have great fans and they have a great building and the league's better when the Knicks are involved. And I hope we see Jalen Brunson playing your team in the conference semis between Boston and New York.
That would be absolutely a dream come true for the Eastern Conference playoffs this year. It's an awesome, awesome, awesome matchup.
And the fear for me is just the miles they've had to put on Al Horford already, combined with Porzingis, who just can't seem to play two games in a row. You know, I think the Celts match up great with them.
And in a way, that's probably the team the Knicks wouldn't, I would think definitely the team the Knicks wouldn't want to face because they just have these guards that they can throw at Brunson. They can counter Towns with their own stretch fives.
And then they have these wings that are better than the Knicks wings. But we might not ever see that Celtics team this year.
I mean, again, this is the all positive NBA pod, but you really need luck with health. And they had luck with Jalen and Tatum all decade.

You know, they got luck with Porzingis for the most part.

They were able to get to the playoffs and get just enough out of them to make it.

They got luck with White and Horford.

And we know with the NBA, like you can't count on that year to year.

So give me another one.

Give me an all positive.

The future is French, Bill Simmons.

The future is French and it's temporarily stationed in San Antonio, Texas. Victor Wembenyama.
We have LeBron James at age 40. We have Nikola Jokic turning 30 in a few days or a month, I think.
And Wembe is 20. And Wembe is giving us a very clear next up.

It doesn't mean he'll be the only one, but this dude is special.

There's no other way to look at it.

Everything is clicking.

He was very hyped, like LeBron coming in.

But I think Victor Weminyama is poised to be the next greatest player in the NBA at some point in the next five years. I couldn't agree more.
The gold medal game was a great sign by him. The Christmas Day Knicks game was a great sign by him.
I had him down as well for the draft. I wrote down Wemby's slow burn into a potential monster crunch time guy.
Wemby to me has turned into, when I'm home watching NBA, if he's in the fourth quarter and it's close, he's on a TV now. And that wasn't the case last year.
Last year, it was more of like, that team's a mess. It really makes me mad that I don't have a point guard.
If he does something cool, I'll see it on social media. This year, it's kind of like, now that Chris Paul, which, you know, go figure,

they needed a point guard and he's almost my age, but still knows what to do, how to get him the ball in the right spots. But his last 18, he's 29 and 10.
Good sign. 50, 40, 87.
dang

4.1 blocks a game

and the nitpick is

4.6 free throws a game versus

11 50, 40, 87. Dang.
4.1 blocks a game. And the nitpick is 4.6 free throws a game versus 11 threes a game.
And that's going to be the tilt that I'm watching for at the end of these games because what's so much fun to watch in these crunch times is where they get in the ball and then what he does. And he still has that, like sometimes he plays lower than his size.

You know,

he'll do like these turnarounds where his,

he's like falling down or he's,

you know,

I think once he eventually realizes just,

I'm going to get eight feet from the basket,

get me the ball.

I'm taller than everyone.

I'm just going to get a good shot,

but it's really fun watching him figure it out.

The last time I,

I'm going back 40 years,

but Samson, the first couple years on the Rockets

and Wembenyama, pretty similar offensively,

except for the three-point shooting.

But Samson had the same stuff.

He was just figuring out what his body was.

He had some really good stuff.

He was always around the rim in big moments.

And he was kind of nice around the foul line. And then he got hurt.
We kind of never saw where it was going to go. With Wemby, the thing that I'm watching for is the season keeps going.
They're a 500 team. We had them, I think, under 35 for the season.
They're clearly going to be in the playoff mix because he's just too good. They also have some trades to make potentially.
But what I want to watch from him is the last five, six, seven minutes of the game, where are your shots coming from? Are you just going to settle for threes? Are you going to start figuring out, I need to be six, seven feet from the basket and around the rim on rebounds and stuff like that? What have you been watching from him with the evolution of that over the last year? He is so much more comfortable on the basketball court, specifically on the offensive end. I still think the biggest growth there is in the two-point area as well.
I think he needs to have a couple of just signature moves, like not a Sambor shuffle, not necessarily a Eurostep, but he should be able to develop some footwork. And we talked about Brunsonson.
Just if he had a little bit more footwork and some go-to moves, like we can all picture Michael or Kobe go into one of their go-to shots, Dirk, like what's that going to be for him? I don't know what that is, but once he gets it, look out. So I'm watching that.
He turns 21 this week. Nobody in league history has ever averaged three made threes.
It's fucking crazy. How is he not 21 yet? Him and my daughter's boyfriend turning 21 in the same week.
That's just nuts to me. Yeah, so nobody's ever made three threes and averaged three blocks a game.
He's at four blocks and easily three threes. So that's his signature thing.
He's going to be a three-point shooter, but what can he do inside the arc, I think is where his big growth area is. I think he'll also, Asher, and you sort of alluded to this, a new rivalry in FIBA.
I know it's a little early, but like 2027 World Cup, 2028 Olympics, you know, France is going to be loaded and they're going to be younger and he's going to be great.

I think there's going to be a new France-USA rivalry in these big competitions.

I love true patriot Kurt Goldsberry is one of my favorite Kurt Goldsberry.

Always keeping an eye on the gold medal in FIBA.

Well, you know, I work for Team USA.

I love international basketball.

Like, you know, FIBA is a great product.

I think we all enjoy the Olympics. I remember talking talking to rc beaufort after the olympics and yeah i say rc what was that like he was like the perfect outcome when the almost won so he's coming back angry uh and my my country won so a lot of spurs people love that he almost won but not quite and i think he has a chance when he's, what, 23, 24 to do what Manu did, which is upset Goliath on the international

stage. He almost won, but not quite.
And I think he has a chance when he's, what, 23, 24,

to do what Manu did,

which is upset Goliath on the international stage

and really become a special,

different-level international player.

But ultimately, as it relates to this season,

they're better than I thought they were

largely because of him, Bill.

I do think they're sort of where LeBron was in year two.

Kind of a dicey playoff team. Nobody expects much, but ahead of schedule.
So I think the Spurs are thrilled with where he is. But a team that makes more sense than those first couple of years of LeBron teams.
I mean, he inherited such a bad roster those first couple of years. They spent three years just trying to extricate themselves from these awful roster decisions.

And I think that 06 season was kind of the first time.

I was like, all right, this kind of looks like a team

that LeBron should have.

Wemby's further along.

They have some possible trade stuff if they wanted.

My big thing, if they made me the Wemby consultant,

he needs to figure out where his like three spots on the floor.

Right.

And I thought this was something when Duncan came into the league and he

came in as a finished product almost.

Cause he had been in college for four years,

but he had his spots,

right?

He was,

he had right block jump hook.

He had that left,

left a little bit further away,

10,

11 feet where he could shoot that bank shot or drive off of the lane,

hit the jumper. He knew

where his spots were. Wemby's spots

are basically the three-point line

and then he's

showing signs of a possible

Dirk foul line something.

But I don't know if he even

knows what it is yet. Remember how

long it took Dirk to just figure out

top of the key. This is

my domain now. I'm now grabbing this and taking it.

And I don't, for me, the Wemby spot,

I think would be the left block

where he could either shoot a bank shot

or a little 10 footer

or go into the lane with a little running jump hook.

And I don't know how you would defend it,

but he hasn't figured that out yet.

Yeah, I have never thought about it in these terms,

but it's like, okay, post play is kind of dead. Here comes like the best big man of a generation how is he going to get two point shots and i love the timmy you know the bank shot from the left side you know and bead is the free throw line face up guy and bead's a good one and bead took eight years to figure out where his spot was and it's free throw line yeah and i don't know there's no manual's no manual.
There's no like George Mike in tutorial video and how to, to drop step and get a half hook. Cause we're not doing that anymore.
So it's a, it's a cool thing again in the all positive podcast is like, how is this guy going to figure it out? He clearly has the tools, but there's no manual to learn from here. Maybe it's Embiid a little bit, maybe it's Jokic a little bit, but I think he has a higher ceiling as a scorer.
Is it crazy? Than those guys do near the basketball hoop. So I don't know how he's going to get there.
But that is, I think we're vibing on that. That's the same thing.
What is his signature two-point move going to be, Bill? I like the foul line area for him too because we saw it with Dirk. We saw it with Embiid.
We've seen him with a couple others. Just because it's really hard to send a second guy, you can almost create enough space there where you can pass to either corner.
You got a guard over there, so maybe that'll be it. I'd love to see them find one more guy, just for the record.
All right. Well, and I just say, one last thing, shout out to Brian Wright and RC and all those guys for getting grownups in that, like Harrison Barnes and Chris Paul.
It really did let this happen. So they do have another level to get to, and it's going to require some good front office craft to build this team around him.
They have to be staring at Fox a little bit. I agree.
That would be the guy I would be

at least having a meeting about

when we get back after New Year's.

Like, all right, hey guys, 1.30,

we're going to have our one and a half hour

Darren Fox meeting

and we've had our best three scouts

watch his last 20 games

and what would this look like with Columbia?

You got to talk that out

and really figure it out

because this is a top 20 guy

that might become available in a month you know uh my next one for the all positive nba podcast and i couldn't be more delighted i've already talked about them on the pod in the past so we don't know if spent too much time on it but the atlanta hawks graduating from fantasy team that just made trades that Woody Johnson's kids would make for the Jets. And they were like, we'll just put DeJounte Murray and Trey Young together.
By the way, a trade that I kind of liked when they did it. At the time, I thought DeJounte Murray still played defense, but came to find out he didn't.
The way they crafted this team, putting Trey with all these wings and all these interchangeable guys on defense who can help him in some ways, or the Daniels-Murray trade, which was the trade of the year and maybe the trade of the last couple of years. The Reese-Shea pick, who I just really like Reese-Shea.
I liked him in the preseason. I like him during the season.
He's 19 years old.

He's playing 24 minutes a game.

I don't know if you saw their comeback against Indiana

when they scored 50 in the fourth quarter.

Rhys Hachey was a big part of that.

They have two centers

who basically can just rebound and finish lobs,

and that's it.

And it's a team that was architected. I'm going to make up that word correctly.
And I just want to appreciate the moment because so many, like look at the Kings, you go the other way, we can talk about them in the all negative NBA pod, but the Kings doing all the fantasy basketball moves like DeMar DeRosa, maybe has stuff left in the tank and on and on and on.

And now they're a mess.

Atlanta, like, just really smartly crafting a team

that can exact the most out of Trae Young

because they knew they didn't really have a chance to...

Trae Young had no value anymore.

They weren't going to be able...

You're basically just selling them off

for 40 cents on the dollar.

All the moves they made were great. And the fact that Hunter turned out to be a guy, kind of belatedly, I just really like the team.
They're 18 and 15 now. And I think they're a team that's not going to be a playing team.
I think they're going to be one of the six playoff teams. I see the same thing for them.
They're 11 and four in their last 15, playing pretty good on both sides of the ball. Landry Fields, Kyle Korver, great front office moves.
I think the DeJounte trade, the original one, it didn't turn out very well. But then sort of getting the edit undo and getting back Dyson Daniels and draft capital has completely, completely refreshed the outlook in Atlanta.
I think Trarey Young still has something to give. He's a terrific offensive player.
And if you surround him with four great defensive players, you have a chance to be able to hide him on the defensive end. And that's what this current sort of lock of wings lets them do.
Obviously, Dyson Daniels deserves all the shine for Defensive Player of the Year candidacy. He is a great...
Did you see this with him? No, I don't think New Orleans did either. It's again, it's sort of like Brunson.
It's like if freaking New Orleans knew they had this, they would have traded him. So I don't think anybody knew it.
He was always kind of interesting in the draft because he had the size and the athleticism and sort of this quirky playmaking thing. But I don't think anybody knew he could do this.
I don't think anybody, I don't think Atlanta knew he could do this. It just didn't seem like he could shoot.
It always seemed like he had quick hands and he was something. But this is crazy to watch.
I mean, you could argue just Murray for Daniels would have made sense. But yeah, it was really interesting watching him guard LeBron a couple weeks ago.
Yeah. I mean, LeBron got him on that chase down block.
Yeah, that was the one guy where it was like, okay, well, maybe you might be the best defensive perimeter guy in the league. But if somebody's 6'9", 270, that might still be a problem for you.
But it seems like everybody else, where he's really tough and what the Knicks should watch out for is if we get Knicks Hawks in like a round one. And Daniel Zahn Brunson is bad for the Knicks.
Like that's just flat out not good. Oh, and like, don't forget Trey Young, you know, rolling the dice on the Knicks logo.

And he loves going up to that building.

I mean, again, the Eastern Conference,

here we are again, positive podcast.

The Eastern Conference is not the dumpster fire

we thought it was like early in the season, Bill.

In Atlanta, 11-4 in their last 15.

Dyson Daniels has recharged their defensive identity. They have Risha Shea.
They're letting him grow. DeAndre Hunter, as you mentioned, is great.
A Kongu. They just have an identity.
Quinn Snyder deserves some love here, too. Figuring it out on the fly and maybe finding a playoff team.
Is there some love for his wardrobe and his look, too? Every time they cut to him in the sidelines,

I'm like, is this a bit?

What's he doing?

Jacoby called it the Sally Jesse Raphael glasses.

I think the Great Barrier Thief

is one of the great nicknames

in the contemporary NBA.

I couldn't agree more.

Great Barrier Thief is...

I don't know who came up with that,

but kudos.

Can I give you...

What do you think Atlanta's over under

as I'm Fandul right now?

They're 18 and 15.

So we're...

So wins, because they update the wins.

What do you think they're...

Because I bet this twice, and I might go back for thirds.

What do you think it is right now?

43 and a half.

42 and a half.

I'll take the over, I guess.

To me, they're top six teams.

So right now, it's Cleveland, Boston, Knicks, Zombie Magic at 2014, Atlanta's fifth and Milwaukee's sixth because they've had the Damiana stuff. So they're only 16 and 14.
And then underneath them is Miami, Indiana, Chicago, Detroit. Philly lurking now at 13 and 17 with a chance to get to 500.

We'll see. They have a

tough schedule in January. I'll be interested

to see how many games a beat actually plays,

but I think Atlanta's going to be a top

16. Quick Philly interlude.

What is your takeaway from that Christmas

game

as a Boston guy?

I just thought Philly played that game like

it was a game seven, and Boston played it like it was another game in the schedule and it's going to happen. I didn't take that much away from it.
I think that's a great point. I think that's what Boston, they're going to get that every night.
I mean, Indiana got them again. They're getting everybody's best.
Welcome to a title defense. This is one of the reasons it's hard.
Everybody's like, Oh, okay, let's bring our a game. I don't think they were ready for what was going to happen.
Here's the Celtics stretch coming up that I'm going to be really interested in. Thursday at Minnesota, Friday at Houston, Sunday at Oklahoma City, Tuesday at Denver.
We're going to have a much better idea after those games. They'll play two awesome games, probably have one shitty game, and then one either or game would be my guess.
Last year, they would have ripped through and won all four of those games. That's the difference.
Last year's team had a chip on its shoulder. They wanted to rip through the schedule.
Every time they lost, it felt like an accident. This year, we'll see.
Could they go on four on those? I wouldn't be surprised. Let's take a break and then I have a couple more for you.
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That is L-O-O-M.com. All right, the All Positive MBA podcast returns with Kurt Goldsberry's next one.
What do you got? Inside the NBA is perfect sports television. And we've seen it be saved from potential doom.
It was doomed, Bill Simmons. Inside the NBA was left for dead there for a few months.
And I got a chance to visit with those guys in Atlanta when I was doing those data casts. And I love it.
I think I speak for millions of NBA fans. Unlike the NFL, unlike Major League Baseball, NBA fans have this incredible pre and post game show.
And I think there was the world's worst take a couple of weeks ago that it was actually bad for the NBA. That's terrible.
Charles Barkley is probably the GOAT sports media guy since Madden, probably. And I just love that we have this Turner crew and this TNT crew, and I'm happy that we're going to have it going forward.
I have no notes. I do worry about them a little bit with how ESPN does basketball and whether they'll have enough time to actually do content before, during, and after games.
Yeah, I think I share some of that concern as a veteran. I think the Turner people share some of that concern too.
All right, my next one for the All Positive NBA pod. Brooklyn as an old school tanking trade machine team.
They said it couldn't be done with the second apron era. They said the Picasso, the trade machine, wouldn't be able to paint during February.
Well, guess what? Brooklyn's already made two trades. They have this giant Ben Simmons expiring.
They have a determined thing to be bad. They have Cam Johnson, who I think there's going to be a little bit of a fun bidding war, and he actually has a tradable contract.
Don't sleep on Nick Claxton. Maybe he's a contract in the low mid-20s as a rim protector kind of alley-oop guy.
Could Atlanta turn Capella into Nick Claxton? I don't even know if that makes them better, but there's stuff like that floating around with them. But then big picture, if they do this correctly, I mean, let's say I think they're definitely trading Cam Johnson.
He's 28 years old. They should.
They definitely want to get worse. If they also traded Claxton, they'd be like $120 million under the cap heading into the summer, which now gives everybody leverage.
Like somebody like Jimmy Butler or Miami is like, where are you going to go? And he's like, well, I actually do have a place to go. It's right there.
It's Brooklyn. They become leverage for Zion.
Basically, they become the island of misfit toys for every player and team that we don't know what they're going to do this summer.

I really appreciate that they exist

because if they didn't,

I don't know what we would do for fake trades.

It's like Walmart on Black Friday.

It's great.

In January of 2025.

50% off.

Cam Johnson right now, lightning deal.

But to Sean Marks' credit,

one of the worst things that can happen to a front office is these trade demands. He lived through one of them.
They got back these pieces, Bill. And now they're able to spin it off into future team-building resources.
I know they want to keep their draft pick. I had one of the team sources say, hey, if we start winning, watch out.
We're going to start trading players.

That's what they've done already.

Schroeder is out.

And I think Cam Johnson is out.

I guess.

I shouldn't say that.

Yeah, I should say Cam Johnson is likely.

Everybody could.

Cam Johnson's on his way out.

They're trading Cam Johnson.

Slide them into any team in the league, they get better.

And Claxton, I agree with. Ben Simmons, I don't think so, but maybe that would be a Sean Marks masterpiece.
But I think they're not done. And I think Claxton and Cam Johnson are the ones to watch.
Maybe even Cam Thomas for somebody like the Houston Rockets that don't have a go-to score. But I definitely think Cam Johnson is the number one player to watch on the trade market right now.
Well, you mentioned this on the ringer NBA show yesterday. There's also a really fun scenario where Cam Thomas is the only guy left just shooting 40 shots a game.
And it's like just the perfect, could Cam Johnson average, could he basically do Kobe 2006 for the last two months of the season? Yeah, I stole that take from you. Cam Thomas has 81 points.
Oh, my God. Yeah, I stole that from you.
I think when you saw the scoring title odds at the beginning of the year, you were high on Cam Thomas. Yeah, don't count him out.
He could shoot 40 times a game a few times down the stretch here. What do you have for your next one? I mean, I think we have to talk about Nikola Jokic, dude.
I think think like... Twist my arm.
10 years ago. I got a text yesterday and a friend of mine was like, hey, you have Jokic on a TV, right? He has a chance to get a 40-20-10.
Like, I'll put him on now. I wasn't going to watch Denver, Utah.
There were better games, but fine. I feel like they should broadcast games differently for the Nuggets because I just want to watch Jokic.
I just want a Jokic cam the whole game. Oh, like the 22 man in football where they just have a wide shot just focused on him doing stuff? Yeah.
Yeah, like the NBA 2K, my player. But I think he's about to turn 30.
We have Jokic or, you know, Wembea 20, LeBron 40. This is the guy in his prime right now.
Yeah. If you would have told me 10 years ago at the midpoint of the 2010s, Spurs are defending champs, Warriors are about to take the lead by storm.
If you would have told me in that time that the best player in the world in the mid part of the 2020s was the giant Serbian center who's not very fast, not quick. I would have said you were crazy.
But one of the things I love about NBA basketball, Bill, is you don't know what the next thing is going to be. And you've alluded to this, I think, in your NBA ratings monologue.
It's like, we don't know what's going to happen in this league. And I think he's a perfect embodiment of sort of one of those unicorn moments.
We're like, what? This guy's going to come along. Here's a stat.
He's currently averaging more points per game than Shaq ever did in his entire career. More rebounds per game than Tim Duncan ever did in his entire career.
He is averaging more assists per game than Chris Paul has ever done in his entire career. And he's making 49% of his threes, which is like Kyle Corver numbers.
This is insanity. Watch him, people.
This is the best show in pro basketball.

Yeah, right now,

third in assists, second in points,

third in rebounds.

Where is

he on the...

What's he shooting on the threes now?

It's down to 49%.

He's leading the league in threes, 49%.

So, second in points, third rebounds, third assist, first in three-point shooting. It's fucking crazy.
It'll never happen again. It's like an NBA 2K make-your-own-player thing and you move all the bars to 99 except for rim protection and fitness or whatever.
But you made the guy chubby. I have some quick ones.
The Pistons are not the Pistons anymore. The Pistons were so sad for so long.
And now they're a fun watch. I would rank them as my stealth, most fun Eastern Conference watch behind the Hawks.
Cade, I think is one of the 16 or 17, has to be on the all-star team, guys, for what he's doing night to night. And they also have an interesting trade bait piece that I'm not sure they even think about doing this year.
Maybe they do, but they have Harris and Hardaway at 41 million combined. They have all kinds of flexibility in all kinds of directions.
And I'm just watching them because they're right around 500. The East is a little bit weird after that sixth spot.
Cade is a guy. Ivy is compared to when Monty Williams was playing Killian Hayes over him.
That's what a dramatic come around that's been. I like what they've done with Beasley and Harris and Hardaway.
Same thing you talked about with San Antonio. We're just like veterans who've been in the league for a while who kind of know how to show up and just be professional.
But there's also like, hey, could this be like a Jimmy Butler out of nowhere team? Could this be like just, fuck it, let's add Zach Levine to this. Could this be, I don know who, like go through the week, go find guys that might be able to, could this be a Cam Johnson team? I feel like there's a trade for them and I think they should do it because Cade's really, really, really good and way better than I thought he was going to be.
I think he's an absolute guy. I would love to see them get one more guy.
Yeah, I love

Cade Cunningham. I think he's finally

clicked into what we thought he

could be at the draft.

And I agree. I mean, coaching changes

matter. And I think this

new coach has brought in sort

of a new culture.

And that term is overused,

but it just feels differently. I love

Beef Stew, by the way, is my favorite league pass player.

Isaiah Stewart, you never know what's going to happen when he's out there.

Great bench guy. I wish the Celtics had him.

But sort of like Houston last year, there's something cooking, but we don't know what it is.

Right. Orlando two years ago.

You can see the breadcrumbs to something really good happening with them. And I think they've at least reached that point.
OKC a couple of years ago. Yeah, the thing I always say, Bill, is like the road from bad to good always has to go through average or mediocre on the way, you know.
And that's where they are. And that's a good sign.
This is where they wanted to be this year. And again, like the Spurs, they're a little bit better than we thought.
Uh, and I think they should be excited about the next couple of years in, in Detroit. Goldsberry.
They just did this trip. They did a three, a three game trip at Phoenix, at Lakers, at Kings, one, all of them.
Yeah. And it had a dramatic, uh, come from behind win against the Kings too.
So that's one. I wanted to mention the Pistons.

And I wanted to mention the Zombie Magic really quick.

They're 20-14.

Paolo's played five games.

He's really played four and a half games because he got hurt.

Franz has played 25 games, really 24 and a half because he got hurt.

They're shooting 30.8% from three

they are running crunch time plays for Tristan

De Silva and Jalen Suggs

they lost Mo Wagner

who you'd be like oh they lost Mo Wagner

Mo Wagner was important for them

and they're 20 and 14

and they're just hanging around

and they're a really hard team to play

they beat the Celtics last week and I'm watching it going, I don't understand how we're going to lose this game, but it made sense when you're watching it. Cause Orlando was just ready for the challenge playing super hard.
Mosley to me, I wasn't sure about Mosley, but what he's getting out of that team,

Atkinson's the coach of the year favorite,

but I think Mosley,

this team finishes with like 46, 47 wins,

not having Paolo, not having Franz.

That's fucking insane.

So he's got to be in there.

I left him for dead two or three times.

Oh, okay.

They can't do this without Paolo and Franz.

Then Franz shows up and then Franz goes out and then they start, Suggs is't do this without Powell and Franz. How could you not? Then Franz shows up, and then Franz goes out,

and then they start with Suggs as the guy,

and now they lose Mo.

They made a run in the in-season tournament.

And yeah,

look, if they get whole before

the Eastern Conference playoffs, I don't care if you're

Cleveland, Boston, or

New York. Nobody wants to see that.

Nobody wants to have to score against those things.

Yeah, the worst case scenario, eight seed.

If you're the one seed, you're like, really?

These guys, now they're healthy? Because

Let's game. But on the flip side of that, superstars are sort of aging gracefully, but in a weird way.
We're able to go see LeBron. I was able to take my family to see LeBron in San Antonio this year.
Stefan, KD, as a Larry Bird scholar, Magic Johnson scholar. You know, you don't always get to see these guys after 35.
And I think one of the cool things is we can go see LeBron James in 2025 and we can go see Kevin Durant and Stephen Curry in their late 30s. And it's not like a nostalgia act.
These guys are great. Like what LeBron and Stephen did on Christmas, and I know you talked about it, was awesome.
They might not be championship contenders. But again, in terms of the depth of league pass offerings, some of these old dudes are bringing special things to league pass on a regular basis.
And 37-year-olds aren't necessarily sort of dead weight anymore. And I think that's great for the league.
I would throw in Chris Paul too.

I had actually for the all positive playing off that,

the fact that the Lakers aren't a disaster,

I'm going to remove my abject hatred for the Lakers and the Yankees,

the two teams I hate the most.

It's also not good when the Lakers are bad.

It's the same thing like we talked about the Knicks.

The league's just more fun when the Lakers are competent or good. Even I would admit that and I can't stand them.
There was a moment when this seemed like the season was going to get really dark. And that this LeBron season was going to get dark.
The season was going to get dark. The JJ thing was going to get dark.
The defense was absolutely abominable. They kind of rallied around it and passed it.
LeBron going away for eight days. I think the schedule really helped.
They really lucked out right as things were creating and all of a sudden we had that NBA cup thing. They've had some good schedule luck.
They got to play Sacramento three times right as Sacramento was completely falling apart. But I feel like they've kind of saved this a little bit.
You know, like the fact that Max Christie's a competent rotation guy now. He wasn't a month ago.
The fact that they were able to get Finney Smith for basically giving up nothing. They're not going to be bad, I guess is my point.
And I think if you're talking about like, I don't want to watch LeBron on an awful team. Like this guy carried the league this century, you know? And at least they're relevant, I guess is my point.
I think them just sucking and not having their pick, it's just like a dark story. And at least that's not going to happen.
And now I think I want to pour gasoline on myself and set myself on fire. I just praise the name.
It's fine. Well, in the all positive NBA podcast, I think the NBA is a collection of markets.
And when LA and New York are relevant, it's good. It's good for television.
It's good for matchups like Celtics. It's also good because they're on fucking national TV all the time because those are the teams they put on.
So we might as well have them be good over terrible. And one of the things that Brian Windhorst always talks about is the league also always backloads LeBron's second half of the schedule.
He always has a lot of national TV games after football ends, you know, so they could have a really tough go. But I think they have another trade to make.
I love Dorian Finney Smith there.

It took like three years too long to get an actual three-point shooting wing

back in his life.

I still think they're one or two pieces away,

but if they have luck with health,

I believe in JJ Redick as a coach.

I believe in LeBron James

as somebody who can sort of figure out

how to endure through this marathon season and get to the playoffs in one piece,

Anthony Davis is the biggest question mark.

If they can add one,

maybe two more pieces around those guys.

Again,

nobody wants to see them in the playoffs.

I think people want to see them in the playoffs.

Yeah.

I wouldn't mind seeing them in the playoffs.

I'm just,

the question for me is that I did.

I want to see them at all during the season. And now at least we can say, all right, this is kind of a fun team.
Come on. In the playoffs, I want to see them.
They're not making round three in the playoffs. Come on.
Ask me again to the All-Star break. Get me to the All-Star break.
I think there's a potential for either answer there admittedly

I don't think Memphis would be scared

if it showed up

LeBron's too old, I don't see him being able to

once we get into

the part of the schedule where you have to play

like every other, I just don't see it

I don't see how he would have the energy

we saw in the beginning when they were playing in big minutes

he lasted a month, he had to take

an 8 day sabbatical

Davis is the one

maybe he could throw the team on his back

Thank you. We saw in the beginning when they were playing in big minutes, he lasted a month.
He had to take an eight-day sabbatical.

Davis is the one.

Maybe he could throw the team on his back.

Phinney Smith, I've always liked.

I thought his quotes were really interesting after the trade.

He's a really smart player.

He's the kind of guy that's worked well with LeBron, where he was talking about how they used him in Brooklyn.

And it was a lot of top of the key threes and a lot of him with the ball. And he's like, I'm actually better off if I'm in the corner.
That was when I was at my best with Luka. Now I get to go back to that.
I was like, alright, this guy, this would be a good one for them. I have another one for you.
This is mostly positive. There's a negative component to it, but I don't want to focus on that.
Zion trades. This has been a big topic on techs and talking to different people who know things and people involved with teams.
What is Zion as a trade asset? What's he worth?

Would you do it?

Is this salvageable?

Like that,

that ESPN wrote a piece about it this week about how goofy his deal is.

Basically it's not guaranteed for the last three years, but you can keep picking it up.

So it's almost like an NFL contract with no real salary cap ramifications.

Somebody's going to talk themselves into it.

If you're New Orleans,

you probably have to cut bait at some point.

And I think it's going to be a really fun story

over the next six weeks,

which is why I put it in the all positive NBA storyline

because I still think Zion's incredibly talented.

I think he plays for the single worst franchise you could play for in the NBA at this point. I want to see him go to a place that will treat him like a plant and water him every day and put him in the sun and put little chemicals and try to help him grow versus where he is now, which is the worst situation you can be in.
Would you trade for Zion? It depends on who I am. I think if risk were a human being, it would wear number one on its New Orleans jersey.
I think that's what we're looking at. There's just so much risk there.
And if I'm a good team, no. If I feel good about my team now or in the next couple of years, I'm not going to give up anything relevant to bring in that kind of risk.
If I'm the Kings, if I'm the Blazers, I'm having very different conversations because I need something. I need an injection of something.
And if that guy turns it around, Major If, he's one of the best players in the league. He's one of the best players in the league.
The guy we've seen at his absolute peak is unstoppable in the paint. Can't be the king.
Shaq, Giannis, and Zion, the top paint scorers of the 21st century by season. He's that good.
If he gets into some sort of rhythm with availability and health and nutrition, it's worth looking. There's whiteboard discussions happening

in struggling NBA front offices right now.

And yet, that's not what can happen.

He can't go to the Kings.

He can't go to Portland.

This goes back to my plan analogy.

I get your point.

Those franchises are like,

hey, this could be an incredible roll of the dice.

To me, he has to go to an awesome organization that will really put some thought and love and care into this. And to me, it's Miami or San Antonio.
Miami makes a lot of sense. If I'm Miami, this is the guy I'm really thinking about.
And especially if this Butler thing keeps going sideways and could it be a three-way or whatever. Could we get Zion? Could we save this? Could we salvage this? Could we turn him into an awesome asset? And is there a world two years from now where we have Bam and Zion and Tyler Hero and that's like our version of a big three? Because Hero's been fantastic this year.
He's just a really, really elite offensive player now. You're not getting anywhere.
If Michael Pena wrote about this today for the ringer, if Bam and Hero are your two guys, you're not doing anything. You still need that awesome somebody.
So Zion and then San Antonio is one of those, like if San Antonio traded for Zion, guess what the reaction in the league would be? Oh shit. Right.
That would be it. It's like, Oh no.
Wemby and Zion. Oh no.
You know? And I think those are the two teams. Maybe there's some others, but those are the two I was focused on.
Like you send them to Chicago. You sent him to Detroit.
I just, I don't know how it's different. Yeah, it's super depressing, right? Because he still has a very high ceiling and a lot of front offices are simply not going to take the risk.
It's a non-starter for a lot of the general managers around the league. That kind of risk in this NBA where you can't have one

bad contract and compete for a championship,

it seems like that's where we're going.

But the contract isn't

nearly as risky

is what makes this so fascinating.

It's a risk, but it's also not a risk.

It depends what you give up.

It's non-guaranteed next year or something like that.

There's weight stuff and there's game stuff where over and over again, you can get out of it. So, you know, we'll see what happens.
But I just keep thinking of the teams that if they traded for him, what the reaction would be. Right.
And Miami and St. Antonio are the two where people would be like, oh, fuck.
Oh, man. They're going to figure this out with them.
We've just seen it in the NBA over the... And I don't know what else to do with that New Orleans team because Ingram clearly has no trade value.
As an expiring free agent, they would have traded him already. They're in a weird spot with CJ and DeJounte who they just traded for.
They have all these picks. I just, I don't know what to do.
They have really good tradable pieces beyond Zaline. I mean, I don't know if they want to do that, but they got some shooters and some wing defenders that would make every team in the NBA look a little bit better.
So if they want to press the explode button, I think they have some draft capital and maybe some young players they can get back. And guess what? Nobody wants to go there.
But now we're not being positive anymore. Do you have one more? Because I have two more.
This one is sort of in jest, but I love the Washington Wizards because they let you see the GM's vision of every opponent, right? So if your team is playing the Wizards, I recommend you go watch it because this is what the front office envisioned when they put their team together. Whatever they're going to get against the Wizards, clean looks, layups, great stops.
I encourage everybody to go. It's almost like the Washington Generals, right? The Wizards are one of the best teams to go watch right now at home.
If your team's playing the Wizards at their home arena, go see it, folks. This is the best your team's going to look all year.
It's like scrimmaging in a hotel conference ballot. What are those rooms called? The draft workout video against the chair that you always call out.
Well, playing off what you just said in the all-positive NBA draft, I kind of love how weird the 2024 draft is and how many guys I kind of like. Reese Hachey, mentioned him already.
Steph Castle, all in. Yeah.
A little bit of a rookie wall recently, but I'm all in. Messi on the Pelicans.
He's a real center. I think he's like 15 years old, but he's definitely a real center who will get a big contract.
Jared McCain. This Jalen Wells kid on Memphis.
Zach Eady on Memphis, who's averaging like 11 and 8, and you feel his presence in some of these games. And there's matchups against certain teams where it's kind of, I really liked him in the draft because I just felt like there's going to be games and nights where he just sucks to play against.
It's like, we don't have a guy. Porzingis is out tonight.
Now we have Leigh Carnett trying to stop Zach Eady. Dalton Connect.
I like Donovan Klingenon. Tristan De Silva was a pretty polarizing prospect, but I think he's been a borderline revelation on the magic.
Bob Carrington, who a lot of people liked. I don't think Sarr, I'm not willing to say he's a bust.
I think there's something there. I really like Bud Zelis.
I don't know how much you've watched him on Chicago, but I almost feel like they have to trade Zach Levine just to get him to play. I like the way that guy, I like how he runs the floor.
I like how athletic he is. I like him.
And I think he's a little feisty. He's got a little chip on his shoulder.
And then Ron Holland and Dillingham and Jacoby Walter, there's something there with all three of those guys. That's a lot of guys that I think all have a chance to be a starter in the NBA, which is basically what we're looking for in the draft.
There's no high-ceiling superstar Wemby-type version, but it's a fun draft. Do you like this draft or am I overreacting? I think if you contextualize it like you did, yeah, I like it.
I think

it's going to go down in history as a relatively weak

class, especially sandwiched by the Wemby

draft and then what we're getting in the Cooper

flag class. I love

Steph Castle. I'm

disappointed. One player you didn't mention, Reed

Shepard, who I wanted to be better than that.

We just haven't seen him. We haven't

really seen him yet.

Well, that's in a related story. He's not, he's not shooting the ball well, and if he's not shooting the ball well, it's hard for him to find justification to get minutes, especially in a Houston environment where they're trying to win games.
And they're trying to play defense, and they're a two seed, and they don't have time for a project. Hey, can you be Mark Price someday? They don't want to, they don't care.
They want to win games.

Yeah, but when you're drafted that high, Bill, right?

Like, I don't care if you're a two-seed. That player,

you're drafted in that slot, you should find

rotation minutes. But I've been disappointed about

I'm not done with him

by any means,

but I think the other players you mentioned

are De Silva, I think, is the one that jumps out.

I was like, what? Okay. And again, this Orlando

team, this culture, next man up mentality, he's great.

Don't connect has been a big piece of why the Lakers are above water right now.

And Richa Shea is going to be good.

I think the Hawks made the right choice.

In retrospect, if we redrafted, it would be hard for me to put anybody above him right now.

If you redrafted,

would you go reach a chef?

You're the Hawks? I think he fits into what they're doing

like we were talking about earlier.

For what they are and what they're

trying to be, probably makes the most

sense. I still really like Castle.

I liked him the most heading into

the draft.

I just

think he has it.

That guy has all the... He checks

all the boxes of what I want and the shooting Thank you. draft.
I just think he has it.

That guy has all the,

he checks all the boxes of what I want and the shooting,

I think we'll get there eventually.

But for them,

I think you're right.

I think for,

if you're just trying to have these interchangeable,

tall,

athletic dudes,

he makes more sense for them.

So check out Bud Zelistow.

I'm in on him.

They might've actually stumbled into one of them. All right.
Here's another one I had for them. So check out Bud Zelistow.
I'm in on him. They might have actually stumbled into one of them.
All right. Here's another one I had for you.
And this is coming off. I took my daughter to the Quipper game the other night.
I got to give them credit, man. That is the best NBA arena, hands down.
Best atmosphere. Everything Ballmer did where there's no TVs in the lobbies, there's no TVs in the clubs, there's no TVs when you're going to buy a hot dog.
Everything is built around, get back in your seats. He wants people in there.
He's got that whole section behind the court that really does, they start chants, they do all kinds of things. There's more energy at those games than Laker games.
Like they, they really have flipped this where the Lakers now look like they're the rinky dig franchise and with the Staples center, which is just old now. Um, and doesn't have the same vibe as this Clippers thing.
This is the first time the Clippers have ever turned the tables on the Lakers and made them feel like they're just kind of more modern and more on it. Like the Lakers still have bigger stars.
But I'll tell you this, that letting Paul George go over the third, fourth year thing, they did offer him three years, so I don't want to praise him too much. But not going four, trying to patch it together with defense,

roll guys, flexibility, and then banking on Harden and Powell being able to carry all the offense.

It works.

Dan Gundy on the defense, it works.

They're a really well-coached, smart team that's taken advantage

of this crazy, you mentioned it earlier with aging superstars.

Harden, this is the best he's looked in a while.

I coached smart team that's taken advantage of this crazy, you mentioned it earlier with aging superstars. Harden, this is the best he's looked in a while.
I don't think he never has the ball too much. I think he's found the right balance of he takes over when they need him, but he doesn't have it all the time.
And I think they're really hard. They win these games at the end of games.
You watch the last five minutes. I feel like they're going to get stops.

What they're getting from Zubats,

who I just want to mention was traded for Mike Mascala by Magic

Johnson and the Lakers, one of the worst trades

of the last 10 years.

But they have an actual home court advantage.

I think they're a playoff team, and I was completely

wrong on them. I thought they were going to suck.

They're good.

I'll go one step further. I mean, there's a

crazy what if there. If Kawhi

can be 88

Thank you. wrong on them.
I thought they were going to suck. They're good.
I'll go one step further. There's a crazy what if there.
If Kawhi

can be 88%

of Kawhi Leonard for the

last few months of the regular

season, I love this

team. I love their coach.

James Harden remains somehow

underrated. Norman Powell has

been a revelation. But

if Kawhi Leonard can come back and have one really good five-month stretch here, that's a pretty dangerous team. Yeah, because here are the minutes he's taking.
He would be taking... Coffee's playing almost 25 minutes a game.
Porter was playing 20 minutes a game. Derek Jones said they're going to need even when Kawhi comes back.
And then Batum was playing 18 minutes a game. So they have minutes where it's just, he's an immediate upgrade of this kind of patchwork wings that they have.
I'm with you. I'll tell you this.
Body language doctor was really studying them. Happiest I've seen Kawhi on the bench in a couple years.
A lot of Kawhi Harden stuff during the timeouts. Kawhi at one point in the fourth quarter, Harden wasn't playing and they were talking during a timeout.
And Kawhi was doing the exaggerated overlap thing with Harden. Like, it seems like they actually like each other.
The vibes are great. Everyone seems like they love Van Gundy.
And in general, like, I don't think they're going going to go away was my takeaway from what I've watched, but also seeing them in person. It was interesting.
Golden State finally did the one thing I don't think teams realized that they should do. Nobody on the Clippers can dribble.
I don't know if you've noticed this. They can dribble on the half court.
Harden obviously can dribble, but nobody wants to dribble the first 50 feet of the court. So it'll be like Chris Dunn, it'll be Harden who doesn't want to work at all.
Norman Powell, they really don't have anybody. And I was with my daughter and we're watching, I'm like, I don't understand why they won't press.
I don't understand why people don't press the Clippers. I'm saying that my daughter who knows, barely knows anything about basketball.
And then the Warriors started pressing in the fourth quarter and they started getting all these turnovers. And she's like, dad, how'd you know? And I was like, cause nobody in the Clippers can dribble, but that's, so that's their one weakness is they don't have like that.
You know, I think pressure is an issue for them. Let me ask you this, Bill, do you feel like that arena will bring a home court advantage to those Clippers in the playoffs? Yes, I do.
I really do. I really, Jay, even that game, there were Warriors fans at that game Saturday night, but the Clipper fans were loud.
And I think they liked the team. The Harden thing, I just can't believe because he was my least favorite player to see in person.
And I actually kind of enjoyed the two games I've been to. I've actually enjoyed him.
I was saying to the guy, Mike Tolan, I shared tickets with, I was like, I'm actually going to go to a bunch of Clipper games. Like I like going, I had a good time.
Uh, the vibe's good. It's just the thumbs up.
So bomber, like, I don't know how much, what did he spend? Like however many billion dollars, it was fucking worth it. Cause he's not like the black sheep brother of the Staples Center anymore you know he actually has good NBA dates and there's a real vibe in the arena so thumbs up great job Clippers yeah you're talking me into it I think yeah I'll watch these Kawhi return games with newfound interest maybe a dark horse in the west that.
That's great for the all-positive NBA podcast. A Kawhi comeback to what already exists if he can be healthy is just a really fun story.
You know? Kawhi, if you throw away the playoffs last year, but before he got hurt beginning of last year, he looked like one of the 15 best guys in the league.

We've seen him in 2019

isn't that long ago. He put

a team on his shoulders and got him there. He's not

that guy anymore, but he can win

a playoff game. He can play

good defense, get rebounds, make

big shots and crunch time. James Harden

can create shots.

But yeah, I mean, banking on, you have to be

in an all-positive podcast, Bill Simmons,

to bank on Kawhi's long-term health

and James Harden's postseason

Thank you. can create shots.
But yeah, I mean, banking on, you have to be in an all-positive podcast, Bill Simmons, to bank on Kawhi's long-term health and James Harden's postseason. You really have to be in a positive environment to project them as a potential sleeper.
I think Harden, the word in the street is he's matured with some of his off-the-court stuff. Is the word in the street? Who knows? Last thing, just quickly, is the all-star arguments are going to be great for the All Positive pod.
We have just the guards of the West, SGA, Harden, Anthony Edwards, Kyrie, Curry, Booker, Fox, and Ja. I'm positive all those guys can't make the team.
Centers,

Jokic, Wemby, Sabonis,

Davis, Shangoon, and Jaron Jackson on a really good

Memphis team. Houston might not have an

all-star. They're a two-seed.

And then you go with the

East,

if Brunson and Mitchell and Cade all make it,

we still have to figure out Maxie, Dame,

Trey, Hero, and Garland. We have to figure out how many Cavs, All-Stars there are.
I just think there's a lot of good players. And when everybody starts doing their All-Star pods in two weeks, people are like, holy shit, a lot of good players.
And then we'll complain about the All-Star game. But we're not going to do that, but we're all positive pods.
It's going to be a Stephen Curry celebration weekend. Most people call it the All-Star weekend, but it's going to be Stephen Curry's convention.
So he's definitely making it. I don't know what they'll have to do, but he's definitely in, Bill.
There's no way that they're going to host it. Well, SGA, Harden.
Harden has to make it. Yeah.
Ant has to make it. I think Kyrie has to make it, and I think Curry has to make it.
So that's five guards, And we haven't talked about Booker, Fox, or Jai yet. Jai, you can maybe dig on some of the missed games.
But that's crazy. Booker and Fox aren't going to be in the All-Star game.
I think that's where we're heading. So the league is loaded.
That's it for the All Positive NBA podcast. Unless you had any last things.
That was good. I just want to say to my

beloved Texas Longhorns that are playing football

tomorrow against Arizona State,

hook them horns. Let's see a win and get

to the semifinals, Bill.

Listen, I'm feeling

positive about that. I'm feeling positive

about everything in general as we head

to the end of

2025. What a positive

ending. This is great.
We didn't even talk about the Kings. I had a whole.
I was going to make fun of the Kings. I'm not going to do it because this is the All Positive NBA podcast.
Thanks, Kyle Creighton, for producing. I think Cerruti's on this.
I think Gaha's on this as well. Next time you see me, it'll be 2025 on the Thursday podcast.
Enjoy New Year's. Have a great New Year's Eve.
Kurt Goldsberry, good luck with Texas. Happy New Year.
Thank you, Bill. I don't have a few years with can On the wayside

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