NFL Preseason Hype Buy or Sell. Plus, Spike Lee on Basketball and Movies | With Danny Kelly

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The Bill Simmons podcast brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I put up a new rewatchables.

On Monday, we did Rollerball, which came out in 1975 and is one of the first great modern sports movies.

Brian Koppel and I broke it down.

You can listen to it or watch it on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel or on Spotify.

Next Monday, we're doing a movie that came out 50 years after Rollerball.

I think this is the biggest disparity we've ever had between an old movie and a new movie, a 50-year difference.

We're doing Sinners.

Best movie I saw this year.

I've seen it a bunch of times and cannot wait to talk about it.

So that's going to be on Monday.

Stay tuned for that.

Spike Lee and I talked about that a little bit later, actually, when we

did our interviews.

So you can look forward to that.

Want to talk while we're talking about movies, Mission Accomplished, New Narrative Podcast that's going to be on the Big Picture podcast.

It's about the 2000s, the Bush years, and a deeper dive into some of the films that came out right after America was going through 9-11 and a whole bunch of other stuff.

So that premiered August 12th.

And you can check it out on the big picture podcast.

On this podcast, Danny Kelly's coming in, and we're going to talk about all the preseason NFL hype.

What do we believe?

What do we not believe?

What are we actually even more excited about than the hype?

I told him 25 minutes, and I think we went 50.

So a lot of NFL, a lot of NFL going on.

Can't wait for it to come back.

We're getting close.

And then Spike Lee for the second time ever.

He has a new movie coming out.

And that is not what we spent the first half hour talking about because we had to catch up on a lot of basketball stuff.

He came over to the new studio and did it.

I'm getting back in the swing with these celebrity interviews.

I'm trying to remember how to do them.

It's been so long.

Once COVID happened, I hate interviewing people on Zoom.

We'd had this great run of interviews in 16, 17, 18, 19, and then COVID just stopped it.

But now I want to get back in the swing.

So Spike's helping me get my chops back, but I had a great time.

A lot of good stuff that came out of that too.

So this is a big action-backed podcast.

One note, I will not have a podcast on Sunday unless there's some sort of major sports event or something, but I'm probably not coming back until the middle of next week.

So just keep that one in mind.

We're going to take a break.

We're going to do Pearl Jam and then Danny Kelly and then finally Spikely right after this.

All right, recording this late Wednesday, so if anything happens, don't blame us.

Danny Kelly is here.

You can read him on the ringer.com.

You can listen to him on the ringer fantasy football show.

An excellent show.

We'll be doing our little four-person preview on this podcast a little later in August.

Danny Kelly, I was thinking about it.

This is our

10th NFL season together.

Wow, yeah, oh, yeah, it is, that's right.

Because the ringer was June 2016,

and this is season number 10.

So, what was going on in September 2016?

Oh, man,

we still had Tom Brady, Peyton Minning was gone, Rogers was becoming the king.

Um, the Seahawks were still relatively relevant, right?

There was still a chance that they were going to kind of keep their dynasty alive, but it just didn't happen after that.

The end of the ends were getting a lot of hype and not coming through, which is just like now,

deja vu.

Yeah, um, man, we had all these quarterbacks we didn't really have yet, like uh, Josh Allen and Mahomes.

None of those guys were on the radar yet.

We were wondering who the next wave was going to be early on in my tenure at the Ringer.

We did uh Cleveland Browns week.

I can't remember exactly what season it was, might have been that first season.

Um, obviously, that didn't pan out so well.

Um,

we probably had a sponsor for it who left who was like, I don't want to sponsor the segment.

I'm out.

Give us our money back.

So it is officially preseason hype time.

You pointed this out.

I said, Hey, I need an NFL segment.

I want us to do something.

And you're like, well,

it's preseason hype season.

It's almost mid-August.

This is when we overreact to stuff, good and bad.

We're going to play a game called Buy or Sell.

So it's preseason hype.

It's not just the good hype.

This is also the uh-oh, train wreck coming kind of hype.

It's all kinds of hype.

What's your number one preseason hype either way that you've been like, huh, what's going on here?

So

this is tough because there's a lot of really fun things.

I'm one of those sickos that likes to watch preseason football and get really into the nitty-gritty.

The first one I want to bring up is the Bears offense.

The situation that's going on with the Bears offense, I feel like there's Bears' despair right now with Camp.

And

it's weird because at the same time, there's really good vibes with Ben Johnson.

Like that signing was electric and everything they've done from like the coaching point of view has been good.

But I think all the reviews so far from Camp and everything that you're seeing on Twitter and kind of just what's happening at practices, it feels like it's not going so well.

So I am officially selling Bears' Despair.

I'm holding out.

I still have hope.

I still have faith that the Bears are going to be a pretty good offense.

It's going to be a huge upgrade over what we saw last year.

So do you think this is a case of the offense is just way more elaborate than it was last year?

And it's the classic, everyone's just trying to figure out stuff.

Everybody's got way more jobs, 50 different plays than they had before, and it's just super choppy.

Yes.

And I think the nice part, it's like one of those things where as the season goes along, I think it's going to start to look a lot better.

I know Ben Johnson is sort of known for being very detail-oriented.

And to me, what that says is early on in training camp, he's going to be so focused on all those details that they're going going to have to kind of keep going over it,

getting all the motions correct, getting the snaps just how he wants it, getting everybody in the right place.

But I think that was kind of a,

you know, that was a big part of the reason their offense just wasn't good last year.

Is like guys aren't going into the right spot.

You got guys that are not fully bought in with the offensive system or like whatever the coaching.

DJ Moore's walking off the field during a play.

You know, that was just kind of the type of thing.

That was a great

to me was just like the biggest indication of how terrible everything could have possibly gone like yeah caleb williams is scrambling around and dj moore just walks off the field and i'm like okay that that's that is the in that's the biggest indication this is just an absolute a train wreck but um if you go through obviously i think the ben the ben johnson hiring to me is like one of the biggest hirings of this kind of era this it has the potential to be kind of like that sean mcvey thing obviously we've seen guys with a ton of hype that don't end up being very good and that could be the case with Ben Johnson.

But everything we've talked about for the last two or three years is Ben Johnson, you know, genius play caller, genius play designer, play sequencer.

You know, he's pulling out end arounds, hooking ladders, passing to tackles, passing to,

you know, having double passes, everything.

Like he has been more in his bag as a play caller than any other offensive play caller in the NFL over the last few years.

And so to me, that is a huge, huge upgrade, especially when you compare it to like Shane waldron last year i mean shane waldron has become kind of a butt of jokes but um you know the the thing that we always talk about on our show is there was an interview last offseason with jackson smith and jigba and he was asked like what do you what do you think of the the shane waldron hiring for the bears and and and smith and jigba was like uh are we live here is this is this

yeah he's like he's a good person

Yeah, nice guy.

Yeah.

So, I mean, I think that's a massive upgrade.

They've done a lot to to work on their offensive line.

I saw PFF has the Bears going into this year as the fourth best offensive line.

That's a bit of an outlier, but I've seen, you know, Fantasy Points has them 15th.

Draft Sharks has them 10th.

FTN has them 12th.

So

they have the potential to be a top half of the league offensive line if everybody kind of works out what they brought in.

They drafted Colson Loveland, Luther Burden, year two of Roma Dunze.

Hopefully he's healthy.

I'm just kind of buying all the different ingredients here, and I still have belief in Caleb Williams, even though obviously he looked terrible as a rookie most of the time.

I mean, he had some pretty good games, too, but the lows were just really concerning.

And so, hopefully, Ben Johnson can just eliminate some of those really, really bad games and kind of raise the floor for the whole offense.

You left out the Bill Simmons rankings, which I sent to you.

You're the only person I sent them to.

Yeah.

I had the top four, Denver, Buffalo, Philly, Tampa for offensive lines, but the next tier, Indy, Atlanta, Minnesota, and Chicago.

Yeah.

I think they're a top eight.

If you just look at like the amount of money they spent, the people they have and the talent and the ages, like it just, you know, and I defer to all the offensive line girls, like Brandon Thornton, people like that.

And all of them are like, that line's going to be good.

The Chargers, I think I had potentially up there, but after the Slater thing, not happening.

So the Bears piece,

it feels like it's going to be choppy.

I feel like we've seen this before in other NFL situations where it takes like a month.

Right.

And I have my eye on them like as a second half.

I'm just trying to file this away for

from a betting standpoint.

I think their over-under is eight and a half, which to me feels a whiff low because if you're just going to pigpile on a division, I think that's one of the divisions to look at.

And I think the other one would be the NFC West.

If you're like, there's a 40-plus win division sitting here in one of these conferences, NFC North and AFC West, I think would be the two picks.

The problem for me with them,

just like as I think of them big picture, is,

you know,

some of the schedule stuff and all the night games, like we get to week 13.

They're playing a Friday night.

They're week 16, a Saturday night, week 17, Sunday night football.

They play two other Monday night games.

It's like for a team that wasn't good last year,

they're being treated like they're a national TV thing, but they go Vikings first week of the season.

And that's the thing that really scares me.

Because I think there's a case for the Vikings defense to to be the best defense this year.

If you're going to say, who's the best defense this year?

And you're just listing candidates, Vikings, Texans are in there.

Steelers still have to be in there, even though I think they're going to slip off a little bit.

Is there anybody else you would even put in that conversation?

It's probably the Vikings in the number one spot.

I mean, yeah, for preseason.

So they're playing from week one on Monday night, which makes me nervous.

This is going to, yeah.

And please, remember, I'm not saying week one, they're going to be a very good offense.

I think as the year goes on, we're going to start to see the Ben Johnson effect take hold.

I think it's going to be a tough one.

That week one against the Vikings, you know, they're going to make his, they're going to make Caleb Williams' life kind of hell.

And

disguising shit.

Oh, these guys are.

No, now these guys are going.

100%.

It's going to be a nightmare.

Yeah.

But I think our overreaction week one is like, the Bears are dead.

Caleb Williams' career is over.

And then there'll be like five and four after week 10.

Yeah.

All right.

I like that one.

I'm going, I'm going chalk with this first pick.

I saw my guy, Peter Schrager.

I saw a clip of him on one of the ESPN shows because he's on a bunch of them now.

And he was doing this.

And I was laughing because I knew it was coming.

I wish I could have bet on this on FanDuel.

The Giants knew Abdul Carter was going to be good.

They didn't know he was going to be this good.

Yeah.

This is the official week of, holy shit, this guy might already be one of the most impactful defensive guys in the league.

This was the devastation of the Patriots with the Joe Milton game, who, of course, plays his first preseason game for Dallas and stinks.

And meanwhile, the one time he was able to put together three decent hours in a row cost us the number of picks.

I like Will Campbell.

I'm happy for him, but this Abdul Carter thing and the Giants having a real kind of frightening pass rush.

I don't know what it means, but it means something.

And it means they are at very least, if you're, if you don't have your shit together offensively and maybe

your left tackle's out, you can't block to begin with.

It's not a team I want to see.

So have you been following the Carter hype train?

Cause I'm buying.

Oh, 100%.

I, I mean, this,

you know, this could be one of the best fronts in football.

Dexter Lawrence is probably the best defensive tackle or one of the best defensive tackles.

It's definitely one of the best.

I thought you, when you started that sentence, I thought you were going to be one of the best fronts of the decade.

No, I'm not going that hard.

But yeah, I I think this is the type of team.

There's a couple of teams that are doing this right now.

I feel like the Jets are kind of trying to do this too.

It's like emulating the Eagles.

Like the Eagles are the prototype.

They're the blueprint.

You know, if we have a really good defense with a ton of studs up front,

we can, you know, that can create things for the back end.

And then we can, on offense, we can run the ball and play a ball control offense and, you know, all that stuff.

And I think there's teams that are trying to kind of emulate that.

This is a very poor man's version of it, I think, for for the Giants.

But, you know, I heard on the broadcast the other day that Jackson Dart models his game after Jalen Hurts.

And I'm like, I can kind of see what he's talking about in the sense that he's really good, throwing deep.

He can hit those big plays.

He can run around.

He can be a part of the run game.

They had some design runs for him.

And Dayball is a guy that comes from coaching, you know, Josh Allen.

So like, I think he's open to utilizing his quarterback in the run game.

Again, this is a very poor man's version of it.

And, you know, i wasn't like the hugest jackson dart fan but i do i i one of my things i actually was going to bring is that i'm buying that the giants are going to be kind of fun this year um i don't know if they're going to be good but they're going to be worth watching that defense is going to be really um you know you know where they got

where's that

they should have an awesome schedule right they they sucked last year

They're playing the AFC West and the NFC North.

Those are the two you don't want.

Their fourth place scheduled.

They're playing the Patriots, Vegas, and the Niners.

Like, all of those teams might be good.

Yeah, we were trying to figure out when

the best spot to bench Russell Wilson and bring Jackson Darn in this season is going to be.

And it's kind of tough because you got to go like midseason.

I mean, I guess maybe at Bears.

You can't do.

Yeah, you can't do week five.

That's at New Orleans because then after that, they get Philly, Denver, Philly, San Francisco.

Denver and Philly in the road.

By the way, I forgot forgot when we were talking about best defenses.

I forgot to mention Philly.

I'd like to apologize to the defending champion Eagles and their fans.

And I forgot to mention the Broncos because that's the other team that I think could have a top three defense.

But

in the Giants' case, at the very least, it's a team that if they're up 13, 10.

in the third quarter and they could just be like, oh, you have to throw the ball now.

And they're just unleashing everybody.

We've seen teams that have awesome pass rushes.

It doesn't matter when you're down 20 to three.

right it's not who cares um but i agree with you i think they're going to be really fun on both sides of the ball which is different than basically every incarnation of the giants for the last 10 years i know i yeah i give heifits crap all the time just because the giants have been one of the worst teams in the nfl like they score some of the fewest points fewest touchdowns they've just been pretty much awful since uh we started working together at the ringer so hopefully this year that changes and he can have a little joy in his life from his team well listen the carter thing was a miracle that he got the third.

Seriously.

It's a mirror and that a team traded up to two and didn't take Carter.

Right.

And I don't know, maybe they were worried about the foot.

And, but I'm just the Travis Hunter, that's great.

You can play both sides of the ball.

You're going to be super exciting.

I get it.

But I just, if you're just starting from scratch, what are the things you need to be an awesome team?

Right.

Quarterback one.

And probably somebody like Carter would be the number two thing you would want.

Yeah.

Just starting from scratch.

So, um, well, you, I went there, but then you pivoted it back to Jackson Dart.

So I think I get to go again.

Yeah, okay.

Um,

Josh Simmons, KC having a left tackle.

Oh, good one.

Um,

I've been reading a lot about this.

So they lost Tooney because everyone's like, well, they have a left tackle.

Well, you're still, you've still lost Tooney.

So you can't say your offensive line is going to be dramatically better, but they will have a left tackle.

They get this guy.

You're, you know, you're one of the focal points of our draft pod.

Somebody that would have been in the top 10 to 12 range if he doesn't get hurt, gets hurt, falls into the

end of the first round.

All the smart draft people were like, oh, shit, that might be a good pick if that guy could play next year.

And guess what?

He can play.

Are you buying that combined with

Rashi Rice back,

a healthy Pacheco?

Yep.

We get Hollywood Brown back.

Are you buying the Mahomes Assense as a fantasy guy or no?

I think so.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

Obviously, the problem is I'm a little nervous because they have such a good defense that they're just going to play the type of football that they've been playing the last couple of years, which is where, you know, they dominate defensively and they don't, you know, and they haven't been as explosive as they were early on in Mahomes' career.

In fact, if you look at Mahomes' numbers on deep passing last year, they were pretty horrific relative to what you'd expect from him.

Awful.

And so, and then obviously Travis Kelsey, kind of a shell of what he used to be, but that's, I mean, he's still a good player.

He's still going to create matchup problems on the inside.

I'm cautiously buying what the Chiefs are doing.

They've upgraded their offensive skill player group.

I was a Jalen Royals fan.

I think he could give them something while Rashid Rice is suspended.

I think Xavier Worthy, he showed last year that he can kind of play that Rashid Rice role as well in terms of getting him opportunities to run after catch, crossing routes.

You can't catch up to him on crossing routes.

He will just run away from you.

And, you know, I thought he showed some things.

I still don't think he's like a complete receiver.

He's not going to win in contested catch situations or anything like that.

But, you know,

then they'll get Rashi Rice back at some point, either week four or week six, probably.

And he's looking like he's been pretty healthy.

So, you know, their offensive skill group will be a lot better.

Pacheco is going to give them a little bit of, you know, explosiveness on the ground.

They got Elijah Mitchell and Brashard Smith this year in free agency.

The problem last year, they had like one of the slowest run games I've ever seen.

You know, they're trotting cream hunt out there as like one of their main guys.

And he was, you know, he doesn't have any explosiveness left.

He's a good tackle breaker, but not scaring anybody.

So they have a little more explosiveness in the ground game.

And then, like you said, the Josh Evans thing, I actually circled that.

I mocked Josh Simmons to the Chiefs.

And of course it happened.

You know, it's like one of those things where it's like just the perfect situation for them.

It sounds like he's healthy.

His tape was outstanding.

He didn't face a ton of really high-level competition early in the season, but I mean, he just, he looked like the best pass-protecting left tackle in college football at that time.

Like he was just, it looked easy for him.

Yeah.

So, you know, getting a left tackle at that spot, pretty incredible.

So, if he can stay healthy, that's obviously a huge, huge boost for them.

So, first three weeks, they're playing the Chargers in San Paulo.

God only knows what that field's going to be.

Eagles, week two at home, and then at Giants week three,

and then Ravens, week four.

Dang.

So, no Rashid Rice those first four weeks.

And I can see the same, like, ah, Chiefs offense.

And then by mid-season,

they'll be going.

You know, I did that.

You already knew that I had Allen as the top quarterback.

And, of course, a lot of people were upset about that, Mahomes fans and Chiefs fans.

He was sixth in MVP last year.

Sixth.

He didn't even throw for 4,000 yards.

And then he didn't win the Super Bowl.

And it's not like he was like amazing in the playoff games.

I don't feel bad about it.

I think Josh Allen, right now, in this moment, week to week,

from a durability standpoint and just everything you want, is still the best guy.

If I had to bet my life on a guy for one game, I would still bet on Mahomes, but that's not the exercise.

It's like, who would you rather have for an entire season?

And I just think Josh is the

best guy for that question.

I don't feel bad about it.

I know you probably disagree.

I mean, I think when you were talking, I was in my head thinking,

if my life depends on one guy executing a drive in the fourth quarter I'm going with Mahomes so maybe that's why you go with that but if if you're explicitly saying like the full season like big picture complete package I can understand it but I still probably go with Mahomes just it's it's more of just like a lore and and and confidence in him getting it done in the crunch time type of thing than than anything than Alan yeah I went back and I watched uh the fourth quarter of the Chiefs Bills game

and I think I blocked the Kincaid play out of my mind I forgot like how amazing Alan Allen was on that play to get that pass off.

And then if Kincaid catches it,

it becomes this legendary Josh Allen comes through.

The Bills, like you just think,

that's why I think it's way closer.

It's a good argument.

It's what,

you know, way closer than people think.

What do you have for the next hype thing?

Well, I'm surprised you haven't said this, so maybe I'm stealing it from you, but Trayvion Henderson as the new Jameer Gibbs or insert any super exciting, explosive electric running back into that sentence.

The Travion Henderson buzz.

To be fair, I was hoping and praying you would bring it up.

I was saving.

I thought if it came from me, it wouldn't be as genuine.

I am buying this so hard.

I'm buying it 100%.

You know, obviously it's very early, but the fact that he took his first NFL touch 100 yards for a touchdown is like, you kind of can't ignore that.

The thing that I loved about him,

you know, going back to the draft, I actually had him, I have him and Omar in Hampton right next to each other, but I had Henderson over Hampton just slightly because of some of the stuff he can do in the passing game and just the pure juice that he brings.

He's just so explosive.

And the pass blocking, which was like,

they've never had a guy who had speed like this, but could also pass block.

Yeah.

And, you know, Add in everything you heard about him at Ohio State was just like he is the alpha.

He's the best guy.

Everybody absolutely loves this guy so much

in terms of just like the character and everything.

So I am so excited about what he can bring to this offense.

Obviously, explosive element.

You heard about, I think today he had some 70-yard touchdown on second play of the skirt.

Yeah, the second, don't like, I didn't follow that.

Yeah, he's he's breaking plays left and right.

It's just, it begets in the opening, he's just gone.

I think it's like

simultaneously, you can't get, you can't buy in too much to the running back hype when it comes to the preseason because they're not hitting.

Sorry, when it comes to like training camp and everything, because they're not hitting, they're not tackling as much.

Um, but with him, it's passing game and what they can do

with him in the passing game, vertical routes.

I've seen multiple highlights of him running down the sideline, whether it's wheel routes or vertical routes.

I just think he's a really dynamic, big play creator, and is going to give the Patriots the type of juice that they really do need on their offense.

Like, who else gives them juice right now?

I mean, Seville Williams is the other chance, and then digs if he comes back, but they have way more speed than they had last year.

Yeah.

And so, and I think just in the NFL, in this era, you have to have explosive playmakers,

you know, especially in an era when teams are trying so hard to limit the big play.

Like, this is the type of guy who can create big plays, who can, you know, in theory, get teams to kind of like load the box a little bit more because you start to threaten in the run game.

I still think that they're going to use Ramondre Stevenson quite a bit, but Trayvon Henderson as a complimentary, you know, the Jameer Gibbs, David Montgomery type of thing, I think he has some real potential.

And I am like unabashedly all in on this hype right now.

I'm, I'm, I'm loving it.

They've had no explosiveness, much like the Chiefs last year, where

if you don't have a couple guys in the field who can scare you a little bit.

So, this Henderson thing, all if you just, if somebody stole my phone and looked at my text, they're basically all about Roman Anthony, Trayvion Henderson, yeah, yeah, and uh, and whether Jason Tatum can come back by the all-star break.

But, um,

so you mentioned Gibbs,

and it's first of all, Henderson, I think, is still like 15 to 1 to be offensive rookie of the year on FanDuel.

Something like that.

Maybe it's gone down a little bit from because the hype has started.

But you mentioned Gibbs, and it's like, man, it would be amazing if he could be Jameer Gibbs.

He's only been in the league two years, but they took him 12th.

And it was like, this is a weapon.

This is this toy.

Here are Gibbs' stats.

His first year, 182 rushes for 945 yards and 10 touchdowns rushing.

Then catching, he was 52 for 316.

His longest catch and run was 20 yards.

Oh, that's surprising.

If Henderson doesn't,

I'm sorry, 24 yards.

If Henderson doesn't beat that, I'm going to be shocked.

Yeah.

I think he can get, first of all, if he plays 17 games, if he stays on the field, which I think he can, because he's one of those like short, all muscle, like he, I think he can cuss somebody on Washington last week.

The guy put his head down.

Henderson like

bulldozed him.

He trucked him.

But it's like, could he get 50 to 60 yards a week rushing, but then in the passing game, be like a 60 catch,

but maybe like a 500 to 550 guy?

Because he'll break two or three during the season.

Right.

And then if that's the case, not only are you in the offensive rookie of the year combo, but you're in like, could you be an RB2 for somebody in fantasy, which I actually think he can.

Oh, yeah.

And the thing with him is they can pass block with him.

McDaniel

had some stealth quotes about him that did get recognized by the True Pats fans where he was comparing him to Danny Woodhead, Shane Vereen, James White, some of these third-down backs.

And he was just like, he just has way more juice than, and I love those guys, but he has way more juice than those guys had and can block.

So they've never really had anybody like this.

But this is for what McDaniels does.

This is the kind of guy he loves.

We've just never had a guy this talented in that spot.

So I don't think you can do enough.

Not only am am I buying the hype, I'll buy everyone else's hype.

Yeah, I'm just, if there's an island, I'm buying condos on it.

I'm ready to go.

I am all in.

And honestly, it's a miracle that he fell to 38.

It's a miracle because Cleveland had 36 and took his teammate who's already gotten into trouble off the field.

But in the moment, people were like, whoa, they took.

It was honestly like a Nick Chubbs, Sony Michelle situation where it's like, ooh, you took the wrong guy from the college.

So it's to get that guy at 38 is a miracle.

I can't believe it.

There was a lot of buzz that he was going to be a first-rounder coming into the draft.

I think there was, you know, people taking the over on running backs in the first round, Gentee and whoever else it might have been, Travian or whoever,

and Hampton.

And,

you know, I think it's really just because he wasn't necessarily a quote-unquote full-time running back in college.

Like, maybe that was the difference that he felt a little bit.

But I guess my question is, why couldn't he be?

Or maybe he could be like a

could he be like a 17 carries a game guy plus a pass catch guy if he can block and he's just built like a fucking

truck.

Like, why couldn't he play?

We have short running backs.

I mean, I don't know.

He, I think he could.

I think the worry is he was banged up several times and couldn't.

The wear and tear thing.

Yeah, okay.

I get it.

But yeah, I mean, overall, you know,

where do running backs really differentiate themselves?

I think big plays, passing game stuff, obviously breaking tackles.

I don't know if he's like a huge tackle breaker, but I think what he is is a, you know, he's a no-fashism guy.

Right.

He's like, you know, the pursuit angle killer.

He, he, he gets past pursuit angles because he's so explosive.

And so

I think, you know, he has potential to be a really valuable player, regardless of the position, just because of what he can do and how he protects the quarterback.

You know, their first two picks were, the Patriots' first two picks were designed to help protect Drake May.

Will Campbell and Trayvon Henderson, those get both, both those guys are going to protect Drake May.

So I can see the logic.

I think it was, you know, great job by the Patriots, obviously.

Well, and then the third round, they get a left guard.

So they actually have the semblance of we can actually protect Drake May.

Now they need Drake May to protect himself and not, you know, take on seven guys.

Let's take a quick break and then we'll do the rest of the buy or sell guys.

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All right, go ahead.

You're up.

Buy or sell.

I am buying the Tetoroa Macmillan hype that we're seeing in the preseason here.

I'm surprised.

I'm selling.

I'll sell mine to you.

Okay.

Okay.

I'll buy it.

I'm scooping up as many shares as I can.

I think he is exactly what Bryce Young needs in terms of a true number one X receiver, guy that can win in the short, middle, you know, and deep areas,

big body.

And the important part is I think he does what he does for the rest of the skill group for the Panthers.

It's like a cascading effect where he's the true number one.

You got Adam Thielen, who is the Steely veteran.

He could be the number two.

He's not, at this point in his career, he's not going to be a good number one.

Xavier Liguette, who they drafted in the first round, can be like an explosive.

after-the-catch playmaker kind of design manufacture some touches for him he's not going to be a true number one type guy and then they have a couple other players Jalen Coker is getting some hype.

And it kind of just rounds out that receiver group.

And I think Bryce Young can really, you know, continue what he did in the second half of last year, which was, I mean, one of the big storylines obviously kind of flew into the Raider because the Panthers were so bad.

But Bryce Young being really good in the second half of the year

obviously could be a type of thing where it saves the Panthers franchise for the next like five years.

Really good.

How about can we just go with

good?

Sure.

Pretty good.

You mean Bryce Young or just Tep McMillan?

Bryce Young.

Like, I don't know, really good is.

Yeah, I wouldn't put him in like the top 10 or anything like that.

But he was.

He was horrific to start his career.

He was not a bust.

And then it was like, ah, Bryce Young, pretty good.

Yeah.

I don't know what to expect from him this year.

Why you out?

Why you out?

Big receivers, I feel like take a little bit of a while, especially as rookies.

And I just think think they're counting on him too much.

I just can't remember that many guys just coming in right away, built like him,

who are just reliable, dominant, number one receivers for a team.

Like even DK when he came in, the other DK, DK Metcalf,

who I think had, if I remember correctly, a good rookie season.

But he also was on a team that had other good receivers and, you know, they could kind of ease him in.

And so that would be the only thing I worry about with him.

Yeah.

I have a receiver I was going to throw at you.

Okay.

As you know, one of my specialties is sniffing out the training camp quotes about people on a team when

the quotes hit a certain level where you're like, oh, this feels real.

And you can like Jaden Daniels was a good one last year.

If you read anything about Jaden Daniels in Washington last year, every story, the way teammates talked about him, the way coaches talked about him, the media at the practices, it was like, shit, something's happening here.

I didn't have the balls to pick them to make the playoffs, but it was like, clearly something special is happening with him.

Yeah, yeah.

So there's a first round pick that's not Abdul Carter

that there's this is happening for, and it's under the radar.

And I'll be interested to see if you can guess it.

I'll give you one guess.

First round pick.

It's somebody you liked who went a tiny bit later than he was supposed to go.

And it's a receiver?

Oh, see, now I'm giving you hints.

If I tell you that, you'll know who the answer is.

I was going to say Ameka Abuka.

That's the answer.

Yes.

Yeah.

Just Google people listening after you finish this, Google Emeka Buka hype

and read all the stories.

In fact, there's one right here from Buccaneerswire.

Hype continues to rise for Buccaneers top pick.

But everyone's just like, this guy's awesome.

And it's very similar to the Brian Thomas Jr.

last year, where from the moment he got to the jaguars people are like this guy's awesome yep and the teammates are like that guy's awesome we did this drill today and he toasted nine people and he's just

so he might just be really good which to me like i know i know worfs is out for a few weeks but if godwin can actually come back and be where he was before he got hurt and you have mike evans there still but then you have this other guy who could be this year's btj for all we know does that change how you think about the bucks at all

yeah i mean i think it definitely gives them the boost that they need with, you know, Worfs being out and them losing Liam Cohen.

I think there's just question marks over what this offense is going to be like with those types of losses.

But everything that you've heard about Amek Buka so far, like you said, has just been.

They're not even asking people about him.

And like, you got players talking about him like he's so, so great.

That's when you know.

This is like, this happened with your guy, Russell Wilson, rookie year.

This is when I picked Seattle to make the Super Bowl because all the quotes were like, Russell Wilson.

Holy shit.

Yep.

This is unbelievable.

I can't believe what he's doing.

And it feels like that's the case with Igbuka.

Well, and it reminds me, it's funny, like another homer pick for me.

It reminds me a lot of Doug Baldwin's first training camp, where Doug Baldwin, he was really under the radar, undrafted free agent.

And so obviously it's a little bit different because Ibuka was a first rounder.

But

like immediately upon getting to training camp, Everyone watching, because in those days, I think you still can, you can just go watch Seahawks training camps.

And everyone knew immediately, like, this guy's making the team.

He's really good.

He's probably their best receiver because he was just toasting people every day, like a big play or two every day.

I think that's what's happening with Abuka.

I mean, and it makes sense.

He's like really experienced, great hands, really good route runner, really good blocker, high character.

He just has a really high floor.

And that was kind of what I had to rank 13th overall in the draft, I think.

And people were kind of not.

He went like six, seven spots lower than that?

Eight?

Yeah.

Where do you go?

In the 20s?

Um, I don't remember off the top of my head exactly.

Because I remember he dropped because nobody needed a receiver for like six, seven picks was the reason.

And it was, I mean, I remember my reaction to the pick was like, oh, that's kind of weird, actually.

Like, I didn't expect the Buccaneers.

They just, I think, re-signed Chris Godwin to a big contract.

Jalen McMillan last year was pretty good in the second half.

So the GM, the GM basically said, like, this guy was the best guy on our board.

Like, we didn't even really need a receiver, but we couldn't not take him so we took him he was a 19th pick um but you know i think there was concerns that he did he number one he's not like the most explosive guy so i think people have sort of a bias against first-round receivers should be super doing that

stupid but he catches everything you know he's he's a big body guy really reliable you know i think oh state's all-time leading receiver and that's like on teams with you know chris alave garret wilson like obviously he never led his team in receiving but he was just so reliable year in and year out.

And, and he kind of fell off a little bit because he, he had some injuries that his production suffered a little bit.

He's going to be on all my fantasy teams.

I still know him.

I love him.

What do you have as your next one?

I'm going with, I'm selling the Jets Justin Fields experiment, speaking of Ohio State.

Wow.

Okay.

I think for fantasy, it's going to be good.

So we have to delineate there because I think for fantasy, he's really exciting.

He's getting pushed up right now.

I think I saw in one rank, he was QB 11.

So he's getting pushed up the ranks.

Well, because you figure if he's 10 for 70 rushing every week.

I mean, yeah, he's going to run the hell out of the ball.

Their offensive line is pretty good or it could be really good.

But I mean, to me, Fields is one of those, he's a classic story of...

highly drafted quarterback goes to a bad team.

You get stuck with multiple offensive coordinators throughout your first few years.

You get traded to, you know, and kind of, it's just like it just never really happens.

And I think with him, I, you know, you remember I was really high on him.

I thought he was going to be a really good pro, but he just doesn't, he's, he just doesn't work quickly enough in the pocket.

And I don't know if he can necessarily fix that.

I think there will be good games here and there, but overall, I mean, if you look at some of the stats from last year when he was on the Steelers, 39% success rate, which was 36th out of 39 quarterbacks that qualified,

12% sack rate, which was dead last, 45% pressure rate, which was dead last among those 39 quarterbacks.

He just takes so many sacks.

He doesn't get rid of the ball quick enough.

I feel like when you're down 10 with him in the fourth quarter, the game's over.

That's what I was going to say next is basically like they have to have the game script that's kind of just perfect for what he does.

And so

if you're up 13 to 6.

With 10 minutes left, it's great.

Run, run, run, play action, then you're okay with them.

So

I'm in on the fantasy portion of it, but, and I don't know if anyone's really that excited, but this last preseason game, like he looked pretty, there were some exciting plays and he ran in for a touchdown.

So I'm trying not to let myself get too excited about the Justin Fields thing because I've bought into the field stuff earlier in his career and I don't want to fall for it again.

I've test drove the Jets over,

you know, because I had a five-year-old.

What is it at right now?

It's low.

I think it's five and a half.

Their schedule's pretty hard,

especially if the dolphins end up being good, which I don't think they will be.

But, you know, I think the Pats are going to be better and the Bills are in there.

But I can't get there.

I think it'll be, they'll have two upsets during this season

where they run the ball really well.

They have a lead, they don't have a turnover.

And they, right?

You know,

I could see them being a tease buster, but I'm with D1 Fields.

I just thought.

It was too hard for him

when you actually need your quarterback to move the ball down the field and throw the ball.

I just don't think he can do it.

Also, they don't have any receivers after Garrett Wilson.

I mean, their number two right now is, I think, Josh Reynolds.

And then they have a rookie tight end.

You can't expect a rookie tight end to elevate an offense.

It rarely happens.

I mean, Brock Bowers is a special, special player.

I think it's going to happen with Tyler Warren a little bit on the Colts.

Ooh, he was a massive throw in there on the hype list.

Do that.

Let's do that.

I just think he should have been the first tight end.

I like that he didn't go first because because now he's got the chip on the shoulder that he didn't go first.

Yeah, yeah.

They actually really need him.

They have two quarterbacks that I don't trust with wide receivers at all and they're probably going to be throwing them the ball anyway.

So I just, he's jumping out to me as,

you know, Bowers is above everybody and then Kittle.

But then if you go into that next tier,

I like, am I going to pay $15 for whoever and I can try to get this guy instead at four or five?

Like, I'm just going to do that.

Yeah.

How surprised are you going to be if he's the top receiver on that team this year?

He might be.

Pittman broke his back last year and he's like.

Yeah, I don't trust him.

It's hard to trust him.

Josh Downs, I think, is a really good player, but who knows what's going on with this quarterback situation?

I think that they're going to scheme up like...

three to four plays a game for Tyler Orman and that's like his floor, you know, in the sense where you're doing screens, RPOs,

maybe even get him in the backfield a little bit.

He did that a ton actually at Penn State.

I don't know if they'll do that in the NFL when you have Jonathan Taylor back there too, but

get creative with

what he can bring as a run-off-the-catch guy.

And he's kind of in that.

I don't think he's the level of

player that George Kittle is clearly at this point in his career, but he brings the run-after catch ability.

I think that's reminiscent of Kittle, where he's just trucking dudes, jumping over them, stiff arming them, things like that.

I beat him in the draft.

Like, he was too high for the Pats to take it for, but if they had traded back a couple spots and taken him, I wouldn't have been furious about it.

I couldn't believe he fell to 14.

I just, there's no way he was not one of the best 13 guys in the draft.

So we'll see.

And the level end, I don't know.

That seemed to be more of a

higher ceiling pick, but Warren seems really, really good to me.

Was that you or me?

Who's up?

You?

That was you.

Oh, you're up.

Let's see.

I think I've been my big one for last.

I feel very torn on this.

So

I'm just going to send it.

I'm buying the Jags revival

with Liam Cohen, Liam Cohen.

Oh, my God.

How can you do this?

There's no, there's absolutely no evidence to support the fact that they'll be bad again, right?

No, I mean, obviously, this goes against my better judgment.

We do this every year, I feel like.

But I don't know.

The Travis Hunter being able to play on both sides of the ball, I think that will make an impact.

I don't know if he's going to be, you know, a massive, massive impact year one on both sides of the ball.

I think the Liam Cohen thing is really what I'm excited about the most, though.

Like, getting a coherent offense, you know, getting Trevor Lawrence kind of into his groove, hopefully a little bit where he's not, you know, making these just ill-advised throws and doing the kinds of things that he's done the last couple of years.

We're doing so well.

The other thing here that I will say, and I think this does matter, is they have the sixth easiest schedule for Warren Sharp.

So they're in a bad division with a good play calling new head coach, get that bump.

Brian Thomas Jr., explosive playmaker.

Travis Hunter, another explosive playmaker.

God, why am I doing this?

I don't know why I'm doing this, but I am.

You should know, since you had a shitty offensive line last year on your favorite team, the Seattle Seahawks.

Hey, they won 10 games.

Yeah, but you had a way better all-around team.

Like this, their line's going to be the combo of.

The offensive line and Lawrence, why am I going to feel good about that?

Not to mention,

Travis at TN and

who's the other dude?

I'm blanking.

Bigsby, like they still haven't figured that out.

People are trying to get us to get the Travis comeback year.

No thanks.

Had him last year for like 30 bucks.

The only case for them, because I did look at this,

because it's like,

and I'm, I'm going to spend the next week trying to figure out who I settle on here for the out of nowhere team.

Last year I had Pittsburgh and I nailed it.

Everyone was off Pittsburgh.

Everyone had them third place and, you know, 500 team.

And I was trying to figure out who is the out of nowhere playoff team because we have all the ones people always talk about.

Could Jacksonville be the team?

The case would be the first three weeks where they're home for the Panthers.

They're at Cincinnati, who always starts out slow.

And then like an upset against Houston.

And now they're playing at San Francisco in week four.

McCaffrey's already hurt.

And now they're now it's like the Jack Bars are 4-0.

Oh Oh, my God.

Travis Hunter, what a trade.

And so I was trying to play it out of my head and I just, I can't get there.

But they have their third place schedule, which means they get the Jets, Bengals, and Panthers, which I don't mind.

But they do have to play the AFC West and then the NFC West, who

we'll see if they're any good.

But

I can't quite get there with Laurence.

Lawrence to me is like, you're going to have to shock me and prove that you're actually good again.

But I don't know.

I respect the hype.

so i'm buying it you're selling it uh can we just do mccaffrey quick because it's a blind sell for me people are trying to hype me back don't be surprised if he's the number one fantasy guy again guess what i'm going to be surprised the guys cannot stay in the field he's older and uh i just don't see it and i think it's the worst kind of fantasy guy to have because you're spending

You're not spending $60 anymore, but you're still in the 40s.

And maybe you're even in a bidding war with your drunk buddy.

And now I'm up to 49 and I really want him.

And now, oh, fuck, now I'm paying 50.

And then two weeks in, it's like, I'm having, I have my Achilles starting to feel tight.

I'm now and I got the red flag.

Oh, no, McCaffrey has the red flag.

What happened?

Oh, tendinitis.

Oh, no, he's going to play.

Nope, he's not playing.

Yeah.

Oh, he's out.

Whoa, he's going to go to see a specialist.

I'm out.

I'm not doing it.

No, thank you.

He's going to Germany to do some stuff.

Yeah, I'm out.

I'm out.

We've all been there with him and no thank you anymore.

I think the only argument, the counter to that is when he's on the field, he has been the best.

You feel great.

He's the best fantasy player of this generation, right?

But this begs the question, is it better to not have that at all in your life or to have tasted it and then it gets pulled away when they get red flagged?

You're like, oh, man, I had those three weeks with McCaffrey and it was so great.

I'd almost rather not know what it feels like.

I totally understand what you're saying, though.

I think it's tough.

Ultimately, you don't want to, you're not trying to get seventh place in your league.

You're trying to get first place.

This was your

Achan

last year.

This was your theory on this.

Go for the gusto.

Yeah.

And, but I will say, um,

McCaffrey and Shanahan lied to our faces last year about like what he was going to be, which obviously, whatever, that's their prerogative.

But from a fantasy point of view, it's easier to do this when coaches are and players are honest about kind of like where they are.

So I don't trust that team.

And then the hard, the worst part, and this is something I experienced is trying to figure out the handcuff situation to McCaffrey.

Like with a lot of players, it's like, oh,

if I get this guy, I'll just grab his backup.

And then that way I'm insured against this injury or whatever.

I could still get this team's run game.

But now we're getting $7 on his backup.

Yeah, but and the 49ers are the most cursed team I've ever seen in my life when it comes to running back injuries.

Every one of their running backs just constantly gets hurt.

So you're like playing whack-a-mole, trying to figure out who to play week in and week out.

Is it Isaac Garendo?

Is it Jordan James?

Is it, you know, Jeff Wilson, who I think they just re-signed?

It's like, I just, and then who knows what Shanahan's, who's going to be in Shanahan's doghouse this week.

So I think it's, it's, you know, obviously the upside of hitting on McCaffrey and getting the, you know, he's literally like an RB1 and a wide receiver two or three in one spot in your roster, which is immensely valuable.

So the upside is, is worth, I think, worth betting on, but it's going to be a miserable experience for you.

You're going to probably, you know, every time a little red cross is next to his name

on the app, it's just going to stress you out.

So it just depends on how much risk you want to take on.

The problem is there's no value for it because you're overpaying

while being worried about the red flag, which is the worst place to be in fantasy.

Let's do a couple quick ones, but before we do that, I just want to say Shadura's off the table.

Okay.

We're not talking about it or what?

Who knows?

I'm rooting for it.

It would be fun if the Browns had a good QB, but people going nuts about week one preseason.

Like,

it's fine just to not have an opinion sometimes.

It's like, that's cool.

He wasn't a disaster.

Right.

Okay.

It doesn't mean anything.

You know, I don't know.

I hope it happens for him.

I'm in the camp of I thought he should have gone in the first two rounds.

All right.

It's hard for me to believe he's not a starter.

It's hard for me to believe New Orleans couldn't have used him.

But

I'm not going to be like, we'll see what he did in week one preseason.

Like, just stop.

Yeah.

Also, it's funny because the only reason he started that game is several

other guys got hurt.

It was just like, man.

So what's your next one?

I actually just want to get your take on this.

I'm selling the Aaron Rodgers Steelers thing, but I want to know what you think about it.

Oh, not only have I sold it,

I knocked down the house.

Not only did I sell the house, I knocked it down for the new owner.

I couldn't be more out.

Shio made the key point.

Brady's the only one over 42 who even played 10 games.

I thought Rodgers sucked last year.

I don't think he wants to get hit anymore.

I don't love their offensive line.

I don't think the team, I'm very nervous about that team in general.

And I think it would be shocking if he was good on the Steelers with all the evidence we have following football for him for what we saw last year, to him all of a sudden being good for the Steelers and them going 12 and 5.

Like, honestly, what are the odds in that?

Like 7 to 1, 8 to 1?

He's just going to be good.

He's going to like get and hit again.

Last year was an aberration.

I will say there's like, and I'm completely with you on this, but there, there are, I've seen stories and I've listened and I've heard a few on podcasts, like

Aaron Rodgers kind of feels like a different guy this year.

You know, he's come in there and

all his teammates love him, all this stuff.

And I'm just like, I don't know.

It's over.

He's 42.

It's over.

Even if you lose like a split second of your reaction time on stuff, combined with that, his the lower half of his body had this traumatic injury that it would be one thing if it was 27, but you know, he's got a repaired Achilles.

He's 42.

He's not the biggest guy in the world.

Him and DK DK Metcalf is a very funny combo, too.

Like from a schematic and stylist.

But him and Tomlin.

What about the first time he says something stupid?

Or Arthur Smith?

Yeah.

I just think there's so many ways to go wrong.

All right, I'll give you my last one.

All right.

I've already talked about them multiple times on the pod.

To my horror, I was listening to the Ringer Gambling Show,

the excellent East Coast Bias show, as they did the AFC West.

And all three of them got excited about this team.

And it feels like there's too many people in the bandwagon.

I'm getting nervous, but the Broncos were my favorite team.

I actually think they're underrated.

I think they are a live chance for them to buy the, to win the AFC West.

I just think they're going to be really good.

I think they're an actual contender.

I really think that.

And now it feels like people are coming on the bandwagon because nobody can figure out another

team that's like this year is basically Lions of like, oh, this team was good last year.

Now they're going to be this.

And they're the most obvious candidate then slater goes down for the chargers right and you're like whoa that there's another reason the broncos are going to be better than chargers and now i'm worried it looks too obvious so i'm not selling the hype right i just wish that i wish i could calm down the hype i wish i could create like a fake news story to get people off the scent like hey bo nicks might

might uh might not be able to start the season mystery injury like i almost want to throw people off the scent i yeah i've the contrarian in me, that, like the, the Broncos hype, I'm, that is like maybe the top one where I'm just like the contrarian in me for whatever reason, everybody.

Yeah, 100%.

Like, everybody loves the Broncos.

And I have kind of a long running bit of, I'm anti-Sean Payton, but that's like fantasy-wise.

Like, he's actually a good, he's a good real-life coach.

He just annoys me in fantasy because he, you know, platoons every position.

And it's really hard to guess like whoever he's going to like that week.

But I don't know.

To me, it's just, you know, we saw C.J.

Stroud have a huge slump in his second year as teams start to kind of figure out what your fastball is and some of the best things that you're doing.

I don't think, you know, I'm not fading Knicks by any means, but I think there's a chance like he could be a little worse than he was as a rookie.

And that wouldn't be super surprising.

Their defense, obviously, way harder to schedule.

Yeah, really hard schedule.

Their defense, I mean, their defense is great, but with everything, you know, how healthy can they stay?

Can they continue to do what they were doing up front?

And then, you know,

I think defense is harder to predict year in and year out.

Like, it's less consistent year in and year out.

So I don't know.

To me, I'm like, I don't have a real argument against the Broncos, but the contrarian in me, it's just like that.

That's like the bells are going off.

Like, everybody loves the Broncos this year.

And so, like, that's just kind of my reaction to it.

They checked the most boxes I've seen for a leap team in a while, including week one, home Tennessee Titans.

Week two, at the Colts, who already have probably changed QBs.

Right.

Week three, at the Chargers.

Week four, home, Bengals, Monday night.

And then week five, at Eagles,

which could be a 4-0 against 4-0.

Like, I'm already ready for it.

So I like it too much.

I want it to calm down.

I need to, like,

if this is like a relationship in college, I want them to, like, be mean to me for a day.

So I don't like them as much.

Right.

Your spidey sense is tingling right now.

I think you're feeling the, you want to zag.

Too many checks.

Too many check marks.

And I was trying to think what another Zag team would be because we do this every year.

And that's what I'm going to try to figure out.

Going to be bad, that will be good, or the vice versa.

That

there's always a team.

There's always a team.

Like, it's going to be like the Giants.

I'm not saying it's going to be the Giants, but that's what I really want to figure out is like, who is the team everyone thinks is going to be shitty?

And it's going to, I'm telling you, they're going to make the playoffs.

Last year was Washington.

Even the Patriots, I think people are expecting they're going to be pretty good it's a team like the panthers

because i think there's cases for falcons it's like panthers jags giants the titans that would be like the titans is a great one the titans is the one vegas the jets it's those kind of teams one of them's going to make the playoffs just how the league goes not the browns Not the Browns.

I've crossed off the Browns and the Saints all over the place.

Those are my two cross-off already.

Oh, I think, you know what?

I'm not like saying the Saints are going to win the division, but the Saints have been my

surprisingly competent team because just everyone, like forever reason, again, it's a contrarian thing where everyone says the Saints are going to suck.

Everyone thinks the Saints are, it's like a fact.

The Saints suck.

And that's the way that we've talked about them this offseason.

And for whatever reason, that just, you know, it like ignites my contrarianness.

And I just want, like the Saints, for whatever reason, they always kind of figure out a way to be competitive, especially in that division.

The quarterback situation is obviously very concerning.

But, you know, I don't know, maybe Kellen Moore goes in there and they kind of just run this funky offense that people don't know what to do with and they eke out some wins.

And I'm sure Kellen Moore is good.

No.

To me, like the QB coach, the QB coach combo, which is the easiest way to figure all this stuff out.

Right.

They've got to be one of the lowest.

Even the Browns, because Stefanski is better than Kellen Moore.

Yeah.

Even they might have a higher number.

I'm not saying it makes any sense.

It just, that's the team that I've been contrarian on because it just feels like everyone is stating as a fact that the Saints are awful.

Well, there's one thing I have noticed.

The people covering the team are talking about how it's way more professional this year.

Like they are, we are going from Dennis Allen and whoever the guy was that Cam Jordan annihilated on the podcast.

You see that?

Sorry about the defensive line coach who was the worst coach he's ever had.

Oh my gosh, no, I didn't see that.

But anyway,

their over is five and a half, and it's already plus 125.

The last thing, and then we'll go because I already kept you a half hour longer than I thought we were going to go.

I think Seattle is in the mix for, I didn't realize that they were going to be good because you think last year they hit their draft a year ago, as you know.

The reasons people are off the scent this year are basically like they downgraded at receiver

and they changed QBs.

You could argue Darnold's better than Geno Smith.

In fact, I'll make the argument right now.

It's year two, McDonald.

They had another good draft.

And they're in a division that I'm not sure anyone in the division is good because this Matthew Stafford, who off the cards.

Matthew Stafford wasn't that good for most of the season last year and then got better as it went along and then was really good in the playoff game.

But for the entirety of the season, like we were wondering what was going on with him.

The Niners, who knows?

I don't like Arizona at all.

And could Seattle just be like, oh, shit, I guess it's Seattle.

Their odds are, they're plus 550 for the division.

That's crazy.

Nobody should have odds like that in that division.

I mean, they almost won the division last year.

Yeah.

So I think logically and on paper, I would say they downgraded going from Geno Smith and DK Metcalf to Sam Darnold and Cooper.

No question.

However,

the scheme, the change in scheme is like the big X factor for the Seahawks this year.

It could be a force multiplier for for them on offense because they're going from what was one of the pass-heaviest offenses in the NFL last year in terms of expected pass rate, to I'm sure they're going to run the hell out of the ball this year.

Like, that's why they brought Clint Kubiak in this wide zone offense.

I think, in theory, it fits Kenneth Walker really well.

It could help their offensive line

start to get some continuity in terms of like they drafted Gray Zabel, who's gotten rave reviews out of training camp, and he looked good in this first preseason game.

Looks like Abraham Lucas, their right tackle, is going to be right now.

He's looking like he will be healthy and able to start.

Charles Cross

can be a good left tackle.

I think there's some pieces there that they're working with that could emerge on the offensive line to make it a not bottom five unit, which is kind of what they've been the last few years.

Yeah, I had you as a minus one before the season, but I might take the minus one off.

Yeah.

Because the offensive line, people seem to think, eh, it might be actually

fairly competent.

It's like a scheme thing.

Can the scheme hide some of their warts that they had last year in terms of like, maybe this just works better where they're attacking, running the football, you know, all that stuff.

Um, and then defensively,

you know, there's a P, I'm trying hard not to like buy too much into the hype because this is another one that's gotten tons of press around where I live.

It's like the Seahawks could have a top five defense, like a lot of people, a lot of smart people who know what they're talking about are looking at this scheme with Mike McDonald and some of the defense, some of the talent they've amassed on defense.

It's a

two big motherfuckers in the middle.

Yeah.

That, you know, maybe five teams have two guys like that i mean leonard williams was one of the most unsung elite players i think last year on defense and then byron murphy they drafted last year in the first round and i think he had a good rookie season could have a really good you know second season got hurt he got hurt and he played hurt and i think

the season um i think so yeah and he was one of my favorite players coming in yeah i like him I can't.

I think the Seattle defense and the Pats defense are very similar for me in that I actually think the ceiling of each defense could be top five.

Yeah.

Especially because your secondary is really good.

Yeah.

I mean, they have so much talent in their secondary.

Yeah.

Devin Witherspoon, another draft pick from a couple of years ago.

So I don't know.

They have the pieces.

I think like you could make an argument, certainly.

The other one I wanted to bring up was Torrey Horton.

This is like too much of a deep cut, but their fifth round receiver is.

another one of those guys that's in the category of just making two or two or three big plays every day.

You got to send me some of the quotes.

Let me keep hearing everything.

Maybe I'll sleuth it tonight.

I want to find out myself.

Look up Torrey Horton.

And look, I'm obviously in the Seahawks text thread, you know, streets where it's people really into the Seahawks.

But I mean, I got so many messages and texts about Torrey Horton when they drafted him.

When the Seahawks drafted him, they're like, this guy is so much better than a fifth rounder.

You're going to love this guy.

He was my favorite player at Colorado State.

You know, I got a ton of people telling me that, like, you're going to love this guy.

And then everything that we've seen since then is like he's been really good at practice he had a couple big catches in this last game in the preseason game um so i don't know again this is like way too deep cut for probably the national side of things but uh people are really excited about tori horton here in seahawks land pats excitement seattle excitement we're back danny kelly yeah uh thanks for hyping it up with me good to see you and don't forget ringer fantasy wait so what when's the big we're doing our draft on august 25th

yeah that's the big it's in a couple of weeks here.

Let's see.

Yeah, that's we're less than two weeks.

Yeah, August 25th.

All right.

I'm going to be in LA soon.

Yeah, I'll see you in L.A.

All right.

Thanks, Danny Kelly.

Thank you.

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Boston, New York, New York, Boston.

All right, let's go.

Also, I'd like to say thank you to having me on, and let's have some fun.

Yeah, you do the intro for me.

I don't even do that.

I wore my Celtic shirt.

We're a little wounded these days.

Oh, it'll gig out the car.

Well, you made this movie.

You put like 17 slanderous Boston things in there.

And maybe 15.

Nine?

There's a large, Rick Fox took a Larry Bird shot.

He played with Larry Bird.

Also, like to say, quick story.

Yeah.

You know, I've done several commercials for

and one of these spots.

Yeah.

It's Larry Bird.

Which one?

McDonald's?

I do it with Sam and Magic, you know, and Charles.

Oh, the bank ones.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

And so

I was really scared.

Larry Bird.

I mean, if you saw any of the movies from the 80s.

She's got to have it.

John Savage.

John Savage.

It's a two-minute scene.

The gentifier.

He's wearing it.

So I was really scared.

I knocked on the door.

I said, who is it?

I said, Spike.

Can I come in?

Come on in, Spike.

Sit down, sit down.

And I said, because I mean, we have a commercial again.

I know this, those, all those.

So he says, I said, he says, Spike, look, we're good.

That means so much to me.

Because I never, anything,

I love Larry Bird, but the thing for me was that he was positioned in the press as being the great white hope.

Yeah.

And Larry, that wasn't him.

He just wanted to bust your ass.

Right.

So he didn't know all this.

I mean, I mean, he knew, but he wasn't all this

method put up behind him.

So that's what I was talking about.

What had nothing to do with Larry Bird?

We tried to hit that in the Celtics documentary we did for HBO about he's positioned as this great white hope, but meanwhile, he's way more talented than that.

And

you want to know part of it at all?

Yes.

Look, I got number love for Larry.

I mean, he just wanted to bust your ass.

And that's it.

It wasn't his fault.

He was put in that position.

Yeah.

I remember like going to Old Garden with the

Larry Bird was at the Boston Garden at 6 a.m.

and took 10,000 shots.

And like, we come out of the womb, but dunk it.

Right.

No hard work, no expertise, you know.

But anyway, how you doing?

I want to talk basketball first and then go in the movies.

This is our year.

Well, I haven't seen you.

The last time we did a pod was pre-COVID at our

two studios ago.

Yeah, you got a setup here.

Yeah,

now I brought you in.

But I haven't seen you since the Knicks got good again.

And then we had a little passing of the torch.

They beat the Celtics.

Did you go to all you?

Weren't you promoting a movie at some point during that series, right?

Nah, I just didn't go to Boston.

You didn't go to Boston?

Nah.

You won't go to Boston?

You know, me and Coach are really good friends.

He came to me.

He came to my office.

Yeah.

There's a picture on Instagram that you can use, you know,

in front of my,

I'm pointing at him.

He's pointing at me.

We got the Nick team behind the front of my office.

But I love him as a coach.

And

I like to say this.

A couple weeks ago, I was invited to a mama's birthday party, a mama's vineyard, and Jason was there.

Yeah.

So I just gave him a hug and said, you know, wished him a speedy week.

I don't want to see nobody get hurt.

Were you at that game?

You were, right?

Yeah.

Did you know right away?

I knew it was Ben.

Ben pretty close to where you were sitting.

Yeah, I mean, I knew it was Ben also.

Halliburton, you know, and

Dame.

You know, they all wear the number zero.

Do you know that?

I know.

I don't know if that's a coincidence or something similar.

I saw Jason.

I laid it down, you know, what it was.

And he said,

Are you going to wear numbers?

I said, Yes, he says he's going to keep it.

I'm trying to figure out why all these young guys are getting hurt because the generation and I'm wearing high tops.

Well, you think that's it?

Because I've heard the high tops theory.

That's definitely one of them.

I also feel like there's way more running in basketball now than there used to be with the three-point line.

Well, a lot of like sprinting out, trying to hedge over, flying over this way.

I just think that

there's a reason why players wore chucks.

right

con converse well they would just have knee injuries back then now it's like it seems like everything's moved toward the feet in the end somebody should do a study because uh

this seems like a

wave of this type of injury and you know when you get that you're out for a year yeah well the tatum thing was interesting because he gets hurt he's in new york the best achilles doctor is in new york he's on the operating table 10 hours later the operation was in new york yeah and they were saying like that actually might have have been good for him that he was able to get it because that's what kobe did too and kobe actually came back pretty fast but then had a different kobe was in you and so let's let's push him yeah yeah put him to the side but that's tatum's work ethic idol though i haven't seen you since kobe died either you were you were actually like legit friends with him because well we weren't great friends but i knew how you did

i had to be there and we did this thing called kobe doing work i remember at espn and listen this though so we didn't want to put it out until he could do a commentary.

And he looked on the scale.

He said, Spike, let's do it after we kick the Knicks' ass.

And that's the game we set the record for the garden.

I had

the stat sheet.

He signed to Spike.

This shit was all your fault.

Is that story true that he almost backed out at the 11th hour, Kobe doing work, the day of the game?

And you had to go to the house and convince him to do it?

I always heard like an urban legend, I never knew what was true and wasn't true.

We were ready, and for some reason, he says, I'm not doing it

like that, and you had the 24 cameras or whatever it was, you're ready to go.

I was freaking out,

and then

lip line of something, he gave me like the thumbs up.

That was close.

You think he was like just testing you to miss?

I don't know, but it didn't matter what it was,

it will be

it would not be what intended if oh this

50th anniversary of uh

i know i know but uh i have a house in honor's venue anyway thank god

that kobe said uh gave me the thumbs up and uh we did it You know, it's that, you know, everyone talks about the GOAT stuff and basketball is against basketball players, and yet with directors and actors, we don't do it that way.

It's just like you basically either make some list.

I like we don't do it it like that way.

I think it's better, and I'm partially probably responsible for the goat, the rank.

Like, I've certainly wrote a seven.

Well, I was, I definitely was involved, but with mo with uh actors and with directors, it's more like you move into this

kind of area, but nobody cares about the ranking of the area.

It's more like you kind of know who's there and who's not.

I think there's uh, I don't know what the word is, but

I'm so tired of this LeBron,

this goat

thing that's going on forever.

And then you say this, well, Kareem's not in there.

It's just, I don't, I don't think it's what's the purpose?

If you think LeBron is, and you think Michael is, you think Wilt or whoever you, you know,

Kareem,

good, but why do we have to spend time

discussing this?

Yeah, and plus, people are going to have their opinion on it.

They're not going to change the idea.

Here's the the thing, though.

I'm going to tell you this, though.

This is not new.

I grew up in Brooklyn.

So there was always a Woolly Mays Mickey Mantle thing.

Right.

So it's not new,

but it's just with the internet and just, it's just, it's out of control.

For me.

For me.

Yeah, we've had good ones over the years.

And also,

Mike don't give a fuck about that.

He said, what are you talking about?

I mean, LeBron probably say the same thing.

What's what's what

what is the good that comes out of that?

I'm asking you.

Well, I think LeBron probably cares a little bit more because after Last Dance,

you know, Last Dance comes out.

It's during COVID.

There's no sports.

It's like this.

Everybody watched that.

Five-week MJA extravaganza.

Everybody's in it.

There's this whole generation of people who didn't know how good it is.

A lot of people were.

Let's not talk about Scotty Pippin.

I know, but the thing is, he becomes a hero at the end of that, Scotty Pippin, because that goes into game six when he's playing with the bad back and Jordan.

You know,

it is what it is.

What's the guy that Phil Jackson

when he ran the play for Ku Coach?

Yeah, well, but that's like that's a part of Scotty's legacy, unfortunately.

That and the migraine, that's just how it goes.

You know, Ewing has the finger roll, and it doesn't go in

why you'll bring a nick into it, and don't talk about game seven against

it.

Well, you did you go to game one Pacers

this year?

The Halliburton, the Neesmith hint and threes, and then Halliburton.

So you were at that game, right?

Yeah.

That's Garden, right?

So that game was on recently, and I just started watching it, and I was like, I just forget what happened.

And I just couldn't believe, I couldn't believe it as it was happening.

It's actually three times crazier than I thought it was.

So in person, you must have been going nuts.

Let me ask you.

Were you at the games one and two where the Knicks were behind 20 points, both games against the Celtics?

Were you there?

Oh, you missed that one, huh?

You missed those two.

I was fortunately on the West Coast

up by 20.

I know.

That was, I felt like we blew it in those games because of the style we were playing.

The Indiana thing, Neisman's making fallaway threes.

They're making some of the craziest shots, and they're all in a row.

And it wasn't even like the Knicks did anything that bad.

I think they missed like two shots.

They missed a free throw.

Yeah, but for the most part, Indie's just making like literally everything for 10 minutes.

So, what are we talking about?

Well, did you feel like that was a fluke or did you feel like because you guys were really good?

Here's the thing, though.

I'm going to leave it at this.

The Knicks led the league, the starting five for the Knicks led the league in minutes.

Yeah, I'll leave it at that.

Oh, so you were a supporter of what?

Of the change.

No, look, I got nothing but respect for my brother Tibbs.

So, why'd you say the minutes thing?

It's a tough business.

Is that the closest you felt like the Knicks were to winning a title since 94?

Was that team the best team last 30 years?

Look, we were up 3-2 going to Houston for games six and seven.

Yeah, it's 94.

Yeah, okay.

This is our year.

I'm not even talking about the pass.

This is the year.

We're coming out of the East.

Well, it's lined up because you got you guys in Cleveland.

We got a bench, too, now.

You got Giannis,

and basically, he's the best player in the conference, but doesn't have the best team.

My team's not going to be there this year.

Probably Orlando's a year away.

It's a write-off, as you could tell by the two trades we made.

Poor Ziggy said holiday for nothing.

Plus, you got that.

Were you in the third tier or something like that?

We got out of that.

You got out of it?

Thank God they don't have that for movies.

Second apron, third apron.

Actually, that might be good for movies.

Maybe we'd start making more original movies and less superhero movies.

Could be, could be, could be.

Although that's starting to change now.

I feel like this has been a nice renaissance year for movies with

original voices.

There's been original IP movies that have actually people have gone to the theater to see.

You guys are back.

Directors are back.

From where?

No, you feeling it though?

I have to think about what you just said, but there's a strange thing between

studio films and streaming.

You know, there's still kind of

wonky.

So, you know, Barry's trying to figure it out.

When you say strange, what does that mean?

You mean trying to get people to actually see a movie in a theater versus being home?

It's

people

with the price of tickets and, you know, some other thing, they'd rather just stay home.

Yeah.

And I think that the stay-home thing.

as you stated, as you talked about

COVID, you know,

there's still COVID's not over as far as mentality, I think.

You know, and there's just a thing where

I'm gonna stay home.

I got a big-ass TV on the wall, yeah.

I don't have to drive, I don't get a sub you know, I'm just gonna sit home.

I don't have people next to me on in my seat on their phone during the movie, that drives me crazy.

I don't have to see somebody's phone light during a big scene, exactly.

But

even with that, there's nothing

I remember as a kid waiting three hours online to see the Exorcist or Airlines or Jaws, the fifth anniversary.

There's nothing.

I mean, when the film is hidden and the theater is packed,

it's wonderful.

It's so funny.

Like, doing, we do that movie podcast, The Rewatchables, and there's movies where they weren't number one until like the sixth week.

Like these slow builds that just now it's completely different.

You have to hit in the first weekend.

First weekend.

Yeah.

First weekend.

That's it.

I'm way more optimistic than I was a couple years ago because I'm with you.

I thought COVID screwed everything up.

I thought it changed habits.

Well, but beyond that, I'm just saying

what's more important than

from a movie standpoint.

Now, if you had a relative diet of COVID, you would just be talking about it.

You know what I mean, though.

No, I don't.

I'm saying like the structure of the movie business, how they were made, what the prices for them were, what the goal of trying to get people into a theater.

It felt like it shifted over the last five years.

And now it feels like it's a little more like the 2010s game.

Let's do some of this

i'm gonna cinopy

first it was silent movies when sound came yeah then then when tv came you know it's gonna kill the theater so this all this thing is like

it's sick

yeah that's the word my brother

so i think it's i think the biggest thing is we just need

It's almost like basketball, where basketball, there'll be some years where there's like eight great players, and then there's other years where there's like 16.

You have little classes, like you had your director class way back when of the up and commerce then it shifts and right now it seems like we're in a good spot there's a lot of good people right now well

you got to get in where you can fit in

what was your favorite movie you saw this year that wasn't yours

sinners

my brother ryan he did the damn thing let me tell a quick story he called me up and he said spike do you happen to be in LA?

I said, Yeah, why?

Well, we're going through the final thing of IMAX.

And if you can get here in an hour,

you can see it.

I'm barely in LA.

Yeah.

So it was a mistake I was there and he took a chance calling me.

So I'm there.

I'm on the right.

Ryan's in the center and his wonderful wife, Cinzi, is there.

And

me, I know they're not going to want to sit next to me in a movie again because I was acting like I was

my court size seat of the garden.

We were killing the Celtics.

I was jumping up and down.

I was like, my mom was born, especially to see that musical sequence

with the genres and the era.

Yeah,

I was so happy.

It was like I was, let's leave the Celtics topic.

I was just happy

to be there and that he called me out of nowhere and then just took a chance.

Maybe

there's a chance Spike Spike is in LA because this was like the final

IMAX

part, the IMAX thing of the film.

And

that film was transforming.

That film took me to another place.

And I love movies.

Yeah.

And when I see something that's great, it just puts me,

it lifts my spirit.

And it spins to me was that film this year.

I felt the same way.

I've seen it four times.

We we did a rewatchables on it.

That's coming Monday, but it just

has Ryan been a guest?

Huh?

Has Ryan been a guest?

No, no, no.

We do like people, fans of it, talking about it.

Cool, cool, cool.

Well, you need to get them.

But I saw it on a Thursday before it had really come out.

I had no idea.

In the theater?

Yeah.

It was in L.A.

They, where sometimes they premiered early.

And

we walked out.

So you didn't know nothing.

You didn't win there close.

No, I always, I did the same thing with your movie.

I don't want to know anything.

The only thing I knew about your movie was it was a remake, and that was it.

I didn't want to know anything.

Whoa, whoa, it's not

a reimagining.

A reimagining.

Reimagining.

Reimagining.

Not a remake.

You know what I mean?

But that was.

But it always does it because you said that word remake.

But all I knew was MBJ and vampires and we were in the past.

And that's it.

And

it was just, it's just so original and so creative.

And then the ending.

When you just walk out of the theater, you're like, oh my God.

Like, I don't want to spoil the ending for anybody who hasn't seen it, but to land the plane the way they did with that and the way they used the music.

Um, I thought it was such a great in-theater experience, especially the way he used the iMacs and the cameras.

It's really, and my guy, MB.

Best domain for me so far.

It's really great.

And it's made a ton of money.

That's the thing.

People will come out if the movie's good.

So we've at least gone back to that.

Because I think it felt like the studios were getting a little scared with, well, no, we got to walk, got to hold people's hand and it's got to be like, oh, I recognize the superhero.

Now it's like, is the movie good or not?

And the word of mouth feels like it's bad.

Here's the thing: we saw it with weapons, people are going to see weapons because everyone's saying, Did you see weapons?

It's good.

Here's the thing, though, even more than in the past, people worry about their jobs.

So, very few people in this industry are going to take a risk

that might give them their walking papers, right?

And it's history, Shona cinema, the people that

who

have pushed the best films over these

who knows how many years that they believed in the talent, they believed in the story, and they said, Fuck it, you know, when you get behind this film, we'll push it out.

Steven Spipp almost got fired doing jobs, Steven Fred, you know, so

when you have

Well, you got it, look, it's a business though, but if you have people in those off

those spaces, in the studios, some streamers that have

respect to the artist.

Yeah.

And when they, when the whole world is telling them, don't do this film.

And that comes to me personally.

I'm getting choked up now because my brother, Tom Pollack,

people told him,

do not release,

do the right thing, especially in the summer, because because you know, black folks riot in the summertime.

And that here's the thing, though, people forget about this.

He had just done the

Tom Pollock had just done the last temptation of Christ with Marty.

He had death threats.

Yeah,

so he could not be blamed not doing do the right thing, knowing him and his family were targets for death.

Yeah, but Tom Pollock did not listen to anybody, those

haters,

and he put do the right thing

to the world because nobody

coming out of can

black folks are gonna riot,

all this stuff, which has never happened.

And today it's in the canon of great films, so

you gotta have people like that in the studios

who are going to champion

work they believe in.

And look,

no one wants to get killed.

We know.

But Tom Polly had people get that.

He came on the last temptation to Christ.

He had death threats, not just him to his family.

And he believed in me.

And he believed in the film.

And the rest is history, history.

It's funny.

That's basically the last 50 years of movies.

Because you read all the books about, like, no, about...

The 70s, right?

You have this huge director boom.

And Coppo was one of the ones who was like, I don't need the studios.

I want to fund my own stuff.

And had one from the heart, which almost bankrupted him.

And so we had this little dance, right?

I went to see a film.

One from the heart?

Opening day was

St.

Valentine's Day, where you see a musical.

Because you were still at NYU, right?

What year was that?

82?

Yeah, maybe.

Yeah.

Yeah, 82.

I finished.

Yeah, so.

So you had this.

Oh, look, we go to this new film.

Francis he put all the money in that film right lost it too

So you had it's always been this dance with I want to trust the director I don't want to trust him too much.

No, I want to trust him and it you see it in TV too because all the greatest TV shows were done by one person right sopranos one guy like you know succession one guy The wire two guys but the thing was not many of those people around though well that's the thing and and that's what makes people not trust the actual artist.

But I feel like it's happening more in movies.

I think people are starting to understand: like, if I just bet on somebody like Kugler, he's passionate about something,

even if he's only made four movies.

Everybody is a good bet.

Now, let's talk about this, though.

Ryan took this film, the film, the script around town.

Yeah.

But no one wanted to make it because he wanted to own the rights in 25 years.

Right.

To get it back.

And Pam and Michael Luca,

thank God, they said okay

at warner brothers great business deal because they needed a hit oh and they've had a string of hits since then yeah and guess what they have it for 25 years he gets it back everybody wins

retired i don't think that'll be a new model going forward but i think for them i'm glad it happened though it's a little like nba free agency though all you need is one team that really needs somebody and they're willing to pay it and that's it But I mean, for him, now he can, his next one, he can do whatever he wants.

Yeah, but you should throw you whatever he wants

just based upon black panther you would think

did you ever did you ever have fuck you power with one of your like did you ever feel like i can make any movie i want and get a green lid or no never

never

never i mean i never made a film over 100 million dollars till the last one

Inside Man, which was 18 years ago.

And I didn't even know it was 18 years ago since me and Denzel I worked together until the journalist told me that

that was 18 years ago.

That's the only thing, only research I did because I just wanted to talk to you and not feel like I was like following some sort of that.

Was the only thing I was like, How?

When was the last time they worked together?

When was inside mana?

I was like,'06?'

First of all, that's crazy.

You haven't made a movie with him since 06.

Like, that's your fault.

Come on, you guys should make a movie every 10 years.

Come on, look,

you've only made five.

I thought it was 12.

Copla, Scorsese, and Leo have made seven.

Yeah, but that's not the same as Scorsese and De Niro.

And they've been 10.

You know, that's not this for me.

You know what I mean?

I know, I know.

I feel like you could have made more than 10 years.

Look at the great director.

Actor, you know, you got St.

Lement with Pacino.

I don't like the politics, but John Ford and John Wayne.

I think they have the record.

They made like 21.

Ford and Wayne?

You have to say at least 20.

Yeah, how many many Native Americans got killed?

It was a long time ago.

Them savages,

them savages.

Yeah, some of them are tough watches.

But yeah, Scorsese and De Niro are probably from the last 50 years, probably the ones people would think of first because they made 10, but they also made them in different decades and their classics for different ways.

Right.

You could have snuck in for one like equalizer or something just to keep the streak alive.

No,

and i were not thinking about that and i've come to the belief as i get old in years yeah

that things happen when they happen you know i cannot force

it

here's the thing we

we saw each other in that interlude you know but we just didn't make a movie you know he has season tickets to the lakers long

we have had it with the knicks and so We look at the schedules and when are the Knicks going to be in L.A.?

But now,

for now, it looks like the Knicks are in L.A.

the same trip.

So I get to see the Lakers and they have to get this eclipse.

You know what's crazy about him?

Who?

Denzo.

So now you figure like he's a leading man really starting late 80s, 1990 range, right?

So it's been 35 years.

And usually when somebody is an A-plus lister,

in the face of a movie poster, at some point you kind of either have to move into the old guy roles or you move into like where cruises, or he's basically just doing Mission Impossible and like franchise things.

And Denzel could still play these original characters where I still feel like he can kick somebody's ass if he has to.

And he can do all these other pieces.

I know.

Don't give it away.

I don't want to give it away.

But

I just can't believe he's kept that going all these years later.

He's, he's, it's almost like watching LeBron in year 23.

Like, I don't understand how he's still doing this.

Here's the thing for me, and I say this very respectfully, for me,

I feel Denzel is the greatest of an actor.

Now, the escort Casey is going to say De Niro.

France is going to say Randall.

This is back to our previous discussion, though, about

it's not as vicious as

LeBron

Michael.

But

I think being mentioned is

celebrate

for me, the whole, especially more in sports, and I don't think people go around saying, well,

Ganero was this.

I mean, I think it just really has gone off the charts in sports.

For me, yeah.

And it's

for me,

oh, there goes Dave DeBusher.

But

for me,

it's a waste of time

for me.

And I know Michael thinks that way because we've talked about it, man.

He's like, man, I got too many things to do.

I got kids.

You know, I got to do this.

Plus, Michael knows who's the best, so he doesn't even talk about it.

And where was he born?

He's like, I don't even talk about it.

Where was Michael born?

I thought it was North Carolina.

No.

He's born in Brooklyn.

Oh, there you go.

Come on Hospital.

Mike Tyson was born there and Bernard Albert King.

Jesus.

Come on Hospital is a hospital in my neighborhood.

I grew up in Fort Greene, Brooklyn.

Mike,

Michael Jordan, Mike Tyson, Bernard Albert King, all born in the same hospital in the People's Republic of Brooklyn, New York.

Thank you very much.

I was upset that you weren't defending Bernard's name a little

more vociferously when Brunson had like, and by the way, I love Brunson, but he had a couple good playoff games.

And then it's like, greatest nick ever.

It's like, what?

Who said?

And I didn't say that.

No, you didn't say it, but that was out there.

And it was like, did you guys, you guys got to go on YouTube and watch Bernard in 84 for like two months.

Two months just killing everybody.

Like, come on.

Brunson was great.

You know what his teammate was there in Tennessee?

Ernie Grunfield was.

Yeah.

Burnt the Brunson.

Yeah.

Both of them broke fine.

Here's the thing with Denzel, though.

I think he's a one-on-one.

There's certain basketball players like this, too.

I just,

nobody can be the cool.

You can play the role where you're the coolest guy in the movie, but he can also disappear into a character.

He can be like the dad in an ordinary people type movie, but he could also be the guy in Man on Fire.

Like he can

come like Hanks had that crazy run, right?

But Hanks, there's certain roles he just wouldn't do, or he just wouldn't have bought him in.

Denzel, I feel like, is the most malleable of any A-plus lister we've had.

He can really literally put him in anything, even in this movie.

Like, he's never played a character quite like the guy in this movie.

Yeah, I am not going to argue with you.

Uh,

that would be my case for him.

I understand.

He, he's uh,

it's a blessing I've never done five.

Mo Better Blues, Malcolm X, He Got Game,

Inside Man, which was 18 years ago.

And now this.

The last time you were on my podcast, we told the story about when he got the first four points off Ray Allen.

He got game.

Well, but then I saw Denzel after.

I can't remember.

I think I did a podcast with him, I think, after you, and he told his version of the story.

And he's clearly more proud of it than just about anything he probably did in the movie See.

You know, Denzel played JV at Fordham, yeah, and PJ Charisma was his coach.

So he's, you know,

he loves sports.

He's a season ticket for the Lakers.

I mean,

I saw him on ESPN, you were there too, killing Jerry Jones.

That was him.

So

the script in the script,

Royale's supposed to win 11-0.

Ray was supposed to kill him.

But Denzel's like, fuck that.

I'm just going to leave the basket.

And so Denzel starts throwing up some throwing up shit that's going in.

Yeah.

And we had to have

an acting coach name of Susan Batson.

So

Denzel's throwing these baskets, and then she's yelling at him, What are you doing?

What are you doing?

And then Ray starts yelling at me.

He says, Time out.

You say, Cut.

cut.

He's saying with the detective.

Because he was like, was he like embarrassed?

Yes.

Well, Denzel was doing the old guy bang against.

I know, here's the thing, though.

He's looking at me.

I said,

Ray's looking at me like, what the fuck's going on?

I just, I just showed him like this.

And then

Ray said, oh.

And here's the thing, though.

The point is that

Denzel, him

makes makes some baskets, made that scene better.

Because I wrote it as 11th zip.

It's one of the best sports movies.

It's one of my favorite, favorite sports movies.

And then you also go wide on it.

And then also, you got

the great music election of Aaron Copeland for that, too.

And think about that.

That film, the music film, was public enemy.

And the great American poser

Aaron Copeland.

So then, I mean, his story sense is amazing.

That he made the movie better.

I wrote

Ray's characters when he lived in Zip.

But D was like, nah, he didn't tell me he's going to do that, though.

That's the thing, though.

He just did it.

And the shots we would make were lucky.

And they were going, but they were going in.

We did that movie a couple years ago for Rewatchables, and it's aged in this awesome way.

And it's stuff like I didn't realize when I saw it in the theater, what, 97, some of the stuff that's in there is where basketball is going, which you saw pretty early.

And I don't think I saw that.

What was that?

Just how fast things were moving for fame for high school kids.

The system.

Oh,

all the money that was in the middle of the day.

My brother Rick Fox takes him down.

Takes him to UNC, yeah, for the trip.

You look all porn stars there.

But you know what's funny, though?

Now, you know know, I sit the garden.

So, when teens were visiting, would come in, they'd be going by me, like, Spike, man, you gave way too much, right?

Seriously, you spilled the bees.

We thought we had on lock, man.

You put out that in the world to see.

They said a joke leave, yo, Spike, man.

You know, come on, you put two once in there, two what's in there.

But you had, so you had Marbury was your access into that world, right?

Because you were friendly with him.

Not really, it's just Abraham Lincoln.

That was the school.

I mean, a lot of players.

Oh, I thought, I thought Jesus was modeled a little bit.

Is that an old wild?

That's what Stefan said, but really, Coney Island, historically, no,

Abraham Lincoln.

That's the school for basketball.

Okay.

And of course, Stefan went there, but it was not, it was, it was not a bias.

Something shifted over the course of the 90s as more money goes into basketball.

What do you call it?

College started to call it.

What do you call it?

Which one?

NI.

Oh, the NIO?

Well, now it's like, now you got to make He Got Game 2 and you just do an NIO.

You ain't, oh, so many people.

First of all, you know,

you want a $100 million movie, do that?

First of all, you know, I said the Guardian.

So if anybody wants to say something to me, but and the Knicks, they come over.

They be people

at the foul line, and the guys over here say Spike.

Oh, because they want to be in it.

Yeah.

And then also, Skylar, what's her name?

Diggs?

Yeah.

She's the first one that says Spike, gotta do this again.

Sequel, but...

Flip it.

Make it a.

Yeah.

She said that she was the first one to say that.

That's a great idea.

Why wouldn't you do that?

I haven't done any remakes.

It's not a remake.

It's a continuation.

It's a reinterpretation, like on Duma Kursawa.

You need a reimagining of him.

I use the word reinterpretation.

Reinterpretation.

This is a continuation.

This is like Top Gun Maverick.

You get Jesus, you get Ray Allen in it now.

And it's his daughter.

Come on, Ray Allen has said that a million.

He is saying that every year, he's available, he's ready to be in it.

I actually think he's good in that movie.

Like, when you think of the legacy, I mean, obviously, you know, this the best basketball player performance ever is Bernard King in Fast Break as hustler, like ripping off lines.

Like, he's the most natural actor we've ever had.

You're not buying that one.

I'm not comparing.

I mean, I haven't seen F in a long time, but uh, Bernard's good in that movie.

Bernard was in a Miami Vice with Bill Russell.

Yeah, Bill Russell and Bernard were father and son in an episode.

Bernard was a good actor.

I thought Ray was good.

It's not a long list of good.

Anthony Edwards was good in the Adam Sandler movie.

The what?

Adam Sandler made a movie on called Hustle on Netflix, and Anthony Edwards is in

the

one that

Kevin Garnett was in.

Uncut Gems.

Kevin Garnett was good.

Yeah, he was good.

But Boston Salt.

And I thought, even though Eddie was not a good movie, which I'm sure you probably hated.

I hate it.

I thought Malik Steele was good in that movie.

I thought Rick Fox was good too.

We've had some good ones.

Rick is an actor.

Rick's an actor.

You put him in this movie.

And yeah, Coach Fox.

Playing himself.

Coach Fox.

Coach Fox.

I don't know why he took the Larry Bird shot, though.

I think he's not a shot.

That's what.

That was his.

That's what a policeman would say that

the guy was a Celtic fan, so why wouldn't he get at Rick Flav?

You healed with Larry Bird, and now you're taking now you're taking shots at him.

I'm not taking a shot, as I said before, ladies and gentlemen.

Those listening home, I have the utmost respect for Larry Bird.

We have to, there's a big thing before we talk about your movie.

I feel like Shalom is on your corner a little bit, and I want to make sure you guys are good because he's become a signature Knicks fan.

He's kind of

in your real estate.

Have you hashed this out?

What's going on?

No.

My daughter

and my son,

they all grew up together in New York City.

So I got, man,

we want to don this.

We want to do a film together.

Oh, so you're in?

Okay.

I mean, all right.

He's on your corner a little bit.

You're sharing it.

It's a good corner now.

There's no competition.

He's wearing Chrome Hearts, Nick's wardrobe.

He's really stepped it up.

Look,

there's no rivalry there.

He's like LeBron Jordan.

He's a great actor.

I'm just trying to start shit.

He's a great actor, and one day we're going to work together.

I'm just trying to start the sense of Nick's Island.

There's no shit to be started.

I don't know.

I heard he was telling people it's my team now.

No, he wasn't.

Spike's Day was.

Spike's Day was Patrick Ewing.

Why are they lying on it?

Why are they lying on it?

Now, here's the thing, though.

People try to, I know you do with kidding, but people trying to start stuff with me.

Me and him are good, man.

It's all good.

But do people actually try to start stuff?

Interesting.

Yeah, Yeah, the thing that he's a hair parent, you know,

I'm going to hand him the baton, but it's not, we just love the Knicks.

Awesome, where are you going?

You've plenty of good Knicks years ahead of you.

Well, God willing.

Look, he's a good guy.

He's a real fan.

He's a real fan.

He's a great actor.

And we've talked about doing a film together.

You know, once this schedule clears up, the Knicks.

Yeah, I was going to say he's kind of in demand.

Well, maybe it could be a Knicks, Knicks-related.

Nah, it will have nothing to do with sports and he's a he's a w fan sports radio host

you know what i'm trying to think of

you had to think you had to think longer and harder yeah let me let me get back to the workshop on that um yeah so it's you two who else was going on the road for those games you guys were the two big ones right

Seemed like there was a little celebrity posse traveling around.

Yes, and that guy, Al Palagoni, you know, he sits next to me.

You know, he has

Apollo Jets, so we're all on his plane and a lot of the players, too.

You must be so excited, though, that they're good again.

I mean, you talk about sticking through the lean years.

It's like that's two fucking decades.

Look, we've not won a world championship since the 72, 73 season.

I know.

How many years is that?

I was three years ago.

How many years is that?

My brother,

50, 52.

I was three years old.

Not 53.

Well, it's going to be 53 this year.

Yeah.

This is a glory year.

I don't want anybody to get hurt.

But with Tatum

and Hallen Burton,

I'm not scared

of

Cleveland.

They went out the first round last year.

You should probably be scared of OKC.

I would be scared of them.

Look, well,

that means we're in the finals.

Yeah, that means you're in the finals.

Let's get out of here.

We're in the Eastern Division first.

That's why I said Boston and Indiana.

Indiana quit us out the last two years in the playoffs.

Your guy, if you look at the book there, Goldman's staring at you.

he missed all of it.

Great writer, great writer.

He had his seats right behind the baseline, you know, way before me.

He went to all of them in the last 15 years.

Like, there was no good memories, but now, and the Brunson thing,

I don't know how sustainable it is with small guards

to be like, to just do this for seven, eight years, because the pounding he takes, like Isaiah was retired when he was like 32.

Like Isaiah Thomas, the the Celtics version, you know,

he was lasted in 2017.

He got hurt.

I just, he takes a lot of hits.

That would be my one fear with him.

I don't think this will happen with Mr.

Bruns.

What do you mean?

You just think he's just built different.

And he's a crazy worker.

He's built like that.

He's built for it.

And so he's going to be the one to lead us to the Gloryland.

You get along with his dad?

Rick?

His dad's running the team, apparently.

One of the team?

No, he's not even a lead

assistant coach now.

I know.

That was a rumor that was going around.

No, it's true.

No, I know it's Leon and Worldwide West.

No, I'm saying Mike Brown is hiring his own

assistant coaches.

Is Rick Brunson?

I thought he was on the bench.

He's not?

He's the only one left.

Ariel is gone.

And you like Mike Brown?

Yeah, I don't know.

I think that...

Look, I love Tim.

You seem very confident.

Last time I saw you, you were not confident at all.

Yeah, how many years ago was that?

That was like 2019, 18 range.

We're in 2025 now.

I think you had just traded poor Zingus.

I think you ever heard that soap opera as the world turns?

Yeah.

I think you had just traded poor Zingas and you were down in the dumps.

Or you were about to trade Porzingus.

What happened?

The Knicks.

That was the last time I saw you.

Shoot, you guys got rid of him.

Well, we had to.

They changed the rules on us.

Oh, that rule is just for the boss and sellers.

Changed the rules.

I'm sorry we built an awesome team of assets.

Now you have to take assets away from us.

It's going to happen to the Knicks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You can't keep these teams.

You're going to have to Knicks when we get a ring.

Yeah.

Well, mate.

Well, so he got game two as

a gender flip, I think, is great.

This movie you did,

which I saw last night, which was exhilarating.

You saw it last night?

I did.

You had a screener?

I did.

No,

I went to one of those screening theaters.

I would have liked a bigger theater, but

it did the job.

And I didn't read anything.

I didn't know where it was going.

I just had a great time.

Yeah, yeah.

I had a great time.

You know what?

Denzel Washton, he's been in my life now.

I mean, you have to go back to Sin Elsewhere because I saw him on that show.

But like, as a reliable, I'm going to go see Denzel in a movie theater.

This is now 35 years.

It's atypical.

And then you two together.

He's consistent too.

Yeah, you two together.

Like, of course I'm going to enjoy that.

Dee and Lee.

So you're doing the reinterpretation.

Yes, of the Curacao film, which is made from an American novel written by Ed McBain.

So, United States, Japan, and also that was Japan post-war, 1963, 1963.

And that was shoes.

Yeah, and I mean,

Denzel would be

owner of a shoe company, you know.

I think you had to bring him back to the culture.

And he's

head of the founder and head of a record label, Stackin' Hits.

Yeah.

And he's come to this point where

that music is hard to stay on top, you know,

for

decades.

And the thing for me that really drew me to this part

behind working with Denzil again is that

and what makes the novel

and also Cura Sauer's film

highest lowest?

Is it that when you're an audience man, this is what I think, when you're an audience watching this film,

you put yourself in the shoes of Denzel Washington

with this morality.

What will you do?

I love what will you do movies.

This is one of them.

Yeah, you're sitting in your seat going, fuck.

I know what the right choice is, would I do it?

And that's that's and then when you have an actor,

a steam actor on the level of Denzel Washington,

I'm sure everybody who sees this film in the theater or at home will feel the same way

asking asking themselves, what will they do if they were in the situation

Denzel's character David King is in?

So you've known him for so long, because I do this now because I'm

a little younger than you, but I'm still in the mid-50s.

But you started.

When you were born, I was 69.

So you go back

in the years past.

The amazing 69 match.

Well, Russell's last title.

I like to think of 69 and the moon.

But

managed by Gil Hodges, Ed Crane Pool at first.

That was a great team.

Ken Boswell at second.

Bud Harrelson is short.

Did you like that team?

I love that team.

Kleon Jones in left.

Tommy Agy in center.

Ron Shriboto in right.

Seavert.

Thomas Vin Ryan.

Jerry Kuzman.

Yeah.

Gary Gentry.

Nolan.

There's a famous card, baseball card.

Gary Gentry and

Nolan Ryan share the same rookie card.

Yeah.

Rookie card.

And also,

sometime first baseman, Don Clendennon.

And Don Clendennon went to my college, Morehouse College.

Down with Atlanta.

What?

Down with two ends.

Yeah.

The reason I brought up 69 was.

I have friends that I've had for since 1988.

Things we did together, they just blend in with each other.

You've known Denzel since the 80s.

You made five movies.

Both Better Blues.

Yeah, yeah.

I knew him before that, though.

So, when you think of like this relationship you have with them, does the shit blend in together?

Do you remember specific things?

Or what is it at this point?

Here's the thing, though.

Me and Denzel are friends.

We trust each other, but we might see each other

when the lake moves when the lake when Nick's in LA.

I'm sitting next to him in

what's the new, what's the new place called

Lorena Intuit Done.

No, that's the Clippers.

Yeah, anyway, and then he might

he's in New York, he lives in New York too.

You know, we come to Nick Games, so it's not like we're best friends

or talk all the time, but we're doing a film

is rock salad.

So when you've done a film, when you've done four other movies with somebody and then you're doing the fifth with them,

is there like a shorthand or like it's just we do every time?

We did not

have to have a deep conversation about the other force we've done and

no

we work it's like we we work together yeah

inside man was yesterday right that's that what we have and our wives are close and our children denzel's son was a leading black clansman john david right washing so

it's it's you have to be up in somebody's face every single minute, you know, because if the bond is there and it's on solid ground, it's on trust and love, that's all you need.

Right.

You have to see him every day.

When I did a pod with him, I was all excited to go backwards and talk about different movies he made.

And he's the opposite.

He just is like, I made the movie, it happened.

I don't think about it anymore.

That's what Denzel.

Denzel.

I'm going to say this.

Denzel doesn't even look at his films.

He didn't want to talk about it.

He wanted to talk about the Knicks and the Lakers.

Denzel.

Yeah.

That's what I mean.

He moves on.

Moves on.

What's next?

Like, what about Man On Fire?

It's like, yeah, Tony Scott.

Is it like he just doesn't care?

Well, he cares, but I think it's just his process.

Right.

He's on to the next one.

He's in the moment.

He's in the future.

And he's not.

And the past is gone.

And you can't bring it back.

But it's like Tom Brady.

What's your favorite Super Bowl?

The next one?

That stands out.

What's your favorite movie?

The next one.

No, let me look.

Now you bring up Tom Brady.

I'm sorry.

Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Were the seven Super Bowls not enough?

Who's this?

Who's this?

What's that?

You know what that is.

Are you talking to me?

oh come on

what's this manningham

so that one bothered me more why because we undefeated that yeah because they they outplayed us in 07

the giants were better that game like they kicked our ass that game

that 2011 giants team stunk

no we we gave we gave them that game gonna get in the call right now now how'd we make a suit come on how do we make the super bowl stink well the the the lambo game that was a good one but they we were better than them in 11.

Why'd you win then?

We stunk.

We choked away the game.

So, why are you undefeated?

Eli made one throw.

You're undefeated.

You're undefeated.

No, that was 07.

So you choose the Super Bowl for stink?

No, that was 07.

You guys beat us in 07.

Like that front four dominated the game.

They were better.

I'm fine with those.

Right hand?

Yeah, they 07.

We lost.

We couldn't run the ball, and the front four killed us.

So Tom Brady was court side in that game.

Yeah.

And they gave him a ball signed.

He has to throw up in the stands during timeout.

Yeah.

So Tom says, come here, Spike.

When this thing happens, I'm going to throw the ball to you first.

And you throw it back to me.

He throws me a bullet like I'm grunk.

Right.

I'm 5'6.

The ball flies over my head.

And I'm lucky it hit me.

Right.

So the ball goal here, yeah, I run back and give it to him, and he threw open, but that was funny.

Do you feel like you've been around?

I also like to say this: yeah,

I got the utmost respect for Brady.

Great guy, thank you, great guy, great guy.

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You've been around a lot of cool actors, people with charisma, and a lot of cool athletes with charisma.

Is there some sort of common

Is there some sort of common DNA trait that you notice?

Confidence.

Right.

not every athlete's not a

great actor, but I'm talking about the greats and the ones that they really thrive in front of the camera.

Confidence also they take direction too.

Hmm.

So there's the athletes and the great ones, they got to listen to the coach.

The coach they call on the fucked-up play and they say, fuck that, I'm not doing that.

But in

general,

that they listen, listen,

they start listening to coaches when they're in the major.

That shit starts

early,

right?

Top one or whatever it is, you know.

And the great ones

had the blessing of having a coach

that could put them on a straight path, lay down stuff you got to do to get there.

Because you always hear these guys talk about not necessarily their pro coach, but

especially a high school coach, high school coach who

made

the path

smoother world you wanted, but those those high school coaches laid down the foundation.

Do you agree with that?

I think coaches, especially at that elementary, high school level, are like seven times more important than people give it credit for.

But now it's good to know.

Because they can make you either not like sports or they can make you look now.

Now it's not just

travel, spawn, bro.

It's crazy.

They're at a great reckoning with basketball right now.

What's that?

Tell me

the specialization, the AAU stuff, the flying everywhere, the playing

eight games and two weekends.

And it's all for the, there's pressure on these parents that if you don't do it, your kid's going to fall behind.

And they've lost in the sauce.

They've fucked up everything.

And

well,

doesn't money usually do that?

Well, that's for damn sure.

But the specialization, you talk to some of these, some of the best athletes we've ever had.

Like even LeBron played football in high school.

Like he was playing multiple sports.

but something is playing multiple sports helps, whatever sport you really, and it also helps if you're an awesome athlete that could play multiple sports.

The confidence thing, though, is there another actor other than

like Denzel, obviously, but were there other people you remember who you're like, man, that guy really

or that lady really, really knows what they're doing?

Because you've had 40 years of movies now, John Tutoro, John Tutoro,

Edward Norton.

Oh, you got That's my favorite.

That's my favorite Spike Lee movie.

25th Hour.

Yeah.

Philip Seymour Hoffman.

I mean, that movie is incredible.

We talked about it last time, but it's basically the

right after 9-11 movie that people didn't realize was the right after 9-11 movie, but it is.

Yeah, nobody went to see that movie when it came out.

And

I'm a New Yorker, and I...

The thing about that, I wasn't even in New York for

9-11.

Where were you?

I was in L.A.

I was

trying to get Arnold Schwarzenegger, Schwarzenegger, in a film I was doing.

What?

To do a film called Save Us Joe Lewis.

I wrote with the great Bud Schulberg, and he was going to play Max Schmelling.

Really?

So I was on a, I left, and we had a meeting

that morning, and we weren't even talking.

We were just looking at the TV screen.

So

you sprinkled some serious New York in this new movie.

I don't want to spoil it for the people that haven't listened, but there's an action.

I'm a New Yorker.

You got Yankee Stadium,

you have a parade.

You got all kinds of stuff happening.

And I like to say, if I can, right now,

we're all saddened by the loss.

There's a great, great, great Eddie Palmieri who passed.

I mean, his scene where he performed the anthem, not not anthem, but the great song Puerto Rico that holds that scene together.

And he just died last week.

Damn.

You know that?

Yeah, he died.

So I was thinking, I was, your first movie was 86.

She's going to have it.

It's now 2000.

This is your 40th year of making movies.

Yeah.

Yeah.

48 years?

40.

Oh, 40.

4-0.

This is your 40th spikely movie.

40 does 40 for 40 acres on a mule.

Would you have guessed that in 86?

I will make 40 years of movies.

No, I mean, I barely making shit

practically killed me.

So everything after that, my brother's been a blessing.

Because I say this all the time.

I hope that people

don't get mad at me saying this that they heard him more than once.

On this God's earth,

if you can make a living doing what you love, you won.

Majority of people on this God's earth were their grave haven't worked at a job they hated, but they're going to put it, they're going to not let their kids starve,

clothes on your kids' back and food and a roof over your head, but

that's not their dream.

Right.

You know, but when you get to

do what your dream is, you've won.

You've won.

I don't think you could say that enough.

Because it's true.

It's true.

I mean, you talk to a lot of college kids and stuff, but that must be one of your big messages, right?

Well, my brother, I know I said term many times, but I mean, it is

truthful.

The thing that brings me joy, besides making films, I'm a cinephile

and I'm a 10-professor, a tenure professor of film in Wali Graduate Film School.

Yeah, Ernest Dixon, my great

TP early, yeah, those early years, and Ang Lee were classmates.

Ang Lee?

Yes, And Jim, the same class.

And Jim Jarmers were two years ahead of us.

So Jim Jarmers had white hair even back then.

So when Jim Jarmers' Stranger Paradise hit,

we were like, that was, we were so happy because look,

Alderstone was before us at NYU.

Mario was before us at NYU.

So we loved them, but we didn't, they weren't in our class, right?

They weren't in the building when we were there, you know.

So when Jarmers,

I always give my love to Jim Jarmers because he made it possible

that independence to him is the way to go.

So everything Jim did with Stranger Paradise, I did with She's Good Habit.

I followed the festival thing like that.

So I'm a teacher.

I've been teaching here 30 years.

Every Thursday, but when I'm shooting the film, I take the semester off.

But I love teaching class.

I love it.

I'm not going to name people, several, more than several people working today.

I was a professor.

Not that was the only professor,

but

I helped them.

And

it's gratifying to see

young people

win.

And that

even for a class, I have class from, I have one from one to two, from two to four

from two to five or six, depending upon the film we're showing.

A lot of times we have guests.

And from seven

to twelve, I have advisement where

30-minute slots, students come in.

I look at their films, I read their scripts, stuff like that.

We had one, so we watch,

what was the film?

Close encounters.

So lights go up.

Oh, I just watched that movie.

Right, come on.

Watch lights come up.

And then

Steven Spielberg walks down the aisle behind them.

They come come on.

They said because he was gracious enough to come to my class.

Oh, my God.

People went motherfucking crazy.

Just saw the great

closing counsel lights come up and he's there walking down the aisle.

So anytime we have guests, we surprise them.

Same thing happened with Edward Norton with your film 25th Hour.

So when I can, I have guests because

I just don't want to hear one voice.

Yeah, Spike said, my, my, my, my, but you bring in the person that wrote the script, the person writing it, you know, the wrote it, the star of it, the producer of it, it just makes it, you know, I mean, Pielberg walking in, they're probably not even, they're probably just so stunned, it's not even a reaction.

No, they started cheering.

Like, oh my God, they started cheering and clapping, and they were happy.

And, and, and, uh,

Stephen, he told me he really liked that, that, that he had a chance to speak to uh young filmmakers.

How are you feeling about the state of black filmmakers these days, especially the younger ones?

Well, I mean, you can't look, everybody's excited about what Ryan has done,

but

he's not the only one.

And so it's still a struggle.

And so

you got to keep on keeping on.

You know, that's just the nature of the business, you know.

So the one thing that's changed, I think, the most severely in a good way.

What's that?

Well, think about when you did Malcolm X, it was initially going to go to a white director, Norman Jewison, who's one of the, you know, one of the best directories.

He's done several several films with Hurricane with Denzel.

Yeah.

But, and also, but in that case, the way Hollywood thought about that stuff, they never even

occurred to people, like, yeah, maybe

we should have a black director for this.

But now it feels like that's shifted.

But here's what they know.

Like, with all types of films.

Let me add this.

Here's what they know, and not too many people know about this.

That film was Norman Jewson's film.

Yeah, he developed it, right?

With

what's Marvel's last name?

Anyway,

I made it known that, you know, I had a certain type of feeling about that.

So Marvin worked.

He arranged a meeting between

Norman Jules and the late great Norman Jewels and I.

And I just explained to Norman

why I thought I should be directing the film.

And Norman, we had a talk back and forth.

And,

you know,

excuse me,

he bowed out.

gracefully.

He didn't have to do that.

The film was his.

The film was Norman's.

He chose Denzel.

Denzel was part of that film, but even before me, also, Denzel had done an off-roadway play that called When Chickens Come Home to Roost.

But I got to give

a shout out to Norman Juice because

if he could have said, Spike, F you, I'm directing it.

But he didn't do that.

Yeah, and in the early 90s, it probably wouldn't have been a big deal.

In fact, you probably would have been like, who's Spike Lee?

Why does he think he should direct this?

It's definitely shit that I had done filming before.

That wasn't.

No, I know, but you don't even know.

You know what I'm saying?

I'm getting a shout-out.

I'm complimenting.

So, what was the late, great Norman Jewish?

What's the biggest movie that you thought you were going to do that you're the most excited to do and then you didn't do?

Was there one that was like your

one-time kahuna?

There's two.

It was a Jackie Robinson movie, which I was going to do with Ted Turner.

But my approach was I did not want to do a film just about 1947.

Yeah,

I want to do a biopic and they chose not to, but, you know, Chadwick did a great job.

And the other script, which I've mentioned, is called Save Us Joe Lewis,

which I wrote with the great, great Bud Shilberg.

Bud Shilberg was inducted.

He's in the Boxing Hall of Fame.

But

wrote Oscar on the waterfront.

And through Kassan, I got to meet Bud and we came very close.

We wrote this script together

about the relationship between Joe Lewis and Max Schmell and all the stuff that's happening.

Yeah, it's actually a fascinating story that they became friends after and all of it.

And, you know, Schmel was not a Nazi.

Yeah.

But

it didn't happen.

The first fight in Yankee Stadium, Joe didn't train, got knocked out of the second fight.

He trained.

He knocked Schmelan out.

But the thing about this, the second fight, before the second fight, FDR summoned Joe Lewis to the White House and said, Come here, Joe.

FDR was in a wheelchair and he said,

These are the muscles that we're going to beat the Nazis with.

People thought that the winner of the Schmelin Lewis fight, the second fight, 938, would determine

the winner of World War II.

Jesus.

And it went like Joe's here and

post-war Germany, Coca-Cola,

America, all America wanted business in Germany.

The war is over.

And Coca-Cola needs a president, so say like Max Schmeller to be president of Coca-Cola in Germany.

Joe gets involved in drugs and stuff, and he's a greeter at Caesar's Palace some some place, you know, some hotel in

Las Vegas.

And so it shifted.

Joe and I broke.

And Schmell was the president of

Coca-Cola.

Jesus.

It's an epic film.

Anthorit.

Yeah, Joe became like a casino greeter, right?

He just was.

And, you know, he got into drugs, you know, and cocaine, stuff like that.

But

the fact that

me and Bud became really tight.

Yeah.

And this is a guy that wrote, you know, what makes Sammy Run and

Facing the Crowd, the film after

Waterfront.

And there were several times where

you call me up, Spike, did you get the money yet?

Yeah, he had a very particular voice.

And I made a promise to the great Bud Shoebrook that on his deathbed, literally, I'll get this film made.

It never happened.

Not yet.

I'm not going to lie.

I'm not going to lie.

We're getting to Bud.

Bud, we're getting this film made.

Could there be a michael jordan movie

because i feel like the documentaries

are so good now you almost couldn't do it i wouldn't do it i don't think mike would want to do it either i'm like i can't speak to him but

right now that could in my opinion mike just wants to be left the fuck alone

right

just leave me alone

i got my boat i got this i don't i got my car thing going you know just

let me let me live my life that's what i think i get from mike now

because i think the last dance is almost like the movie.

Like, if you're going to do Michael Jordan movie, just watch the last dance.

And I don't know if you can make a movie that's,

you know, I thought, Ali, I know you were interested in doing the Ali movie at some point.

It's got some with Will Smith, it's got some interesting stretches, but ultimately, like, Ali was such a one-on-one, it's hard to even play.

How do you play him?

There was nobody like him.

We've never had a human being like him before or since.

You know, but look, everybody makes their choices.

and uh, so again, I'm gonna, I know I'm repeating myself, but I made a promise that the great Bud Schulberg, yeah,

that would get this filming for me.

On the waterfront is my favorite movie of all time

of all time, and Brando.

I mean, look, who would actors done what Brando did?

And on the waterfront, I could have been a contender.

It's a funny scene where

in your favorite, one of your favorite films of mine, yeah, 20th Hour, where Barry Pepper

accidentally

broke Edward Norton's nose.

For real, yeah.

For real.

And so the ambulance is there.

The camera's here, and the ambulance turned turn the alarm off, whatever it is, the sign off.

So the camera is in front of

the ambulance.

I said, Edward Norton's one, look, give me one more take.

Not one, just me, one take.

Remember how Brando walked after he got beat up?

Yeah.

He was walking up the steps from the thing.

That's why they want you to walk to the museum.

I mean, to

pass the camera.

Yeah.

And as soon as you pass the camera, I'll call cut, get an ammos, get your nose fixed.

Jesus.

You remember when Brando, he got beat up in the shed?

Well, Brando had a weird hold over all the actors from like 1970, probably through Ed Norton, right?

But now it's, that's one of the things I always think about with movies and sports, like enough time passes,

and then if you're

in that film.

Like, do you think like Shalame has

Brando played a boxer?

Right.

I watched a boxer in that film.

Yeah.

I had a Delroy Lindo thing I wanted to bring up before we go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Because he's really good in Sinners, but he was also really good in your movie.

I feel like he's having bloods also i think he's having a renaissance also he played my father in crooklyn right alphie wood had played my mother that feel is semi-autobiographical about the leads growing up it's in brooklyn i was trying to think of the sports equivalent of somebody having like the run he's having right now in movies i'm happy age he's at it's crazy i'm happy for him yeah because you've you've he should have won oscar for uh supporn actor for the five bloods that one scene in the film where he's speaking to the camera going through the junk he was stuff

in that movie.

So, what's your next movie?

Do you know yet?

Don't know yet.

And also, be honest, I know, but I don't talk about stuff before it happens.

I just, for me, personally, I think that's a jinx.

Oh, I see what you mean.

So, there might be a next movie.

Oh, I'm not done yet.

Are you at the point now where you're like,

mid-April, May, June?

Oh, yeah, probably not filming.

I picked dates.

Yeah, yeah.

Like, we got to be going by this date.

We're done by like March 29th.

I have, I have business.

Well, here's the thing, though, because I got a, I'm still teaching.

Yeah.

So it let me off.

I have, you know, you have the fall semester and the spring semester.

So they got to know, well, I'm not going to be teaching.

So 40 years of Spike movies.

What was the one that came out in a way that you look back now and you think

that's the closest to what I wanted the movie to be?

Now looking back, the most things went right.

I feel the best about this.

I did my job the best I possibly could have.

I would say I've done the best I job.

I would say I've done the best I could at that time.

So, you don't think of it that way?

There's not one looking back years later, you're like, man, a lot of things went right for that one.

Well,

you need 20 things to go right.

You're absolutely right.

To make a movie is one of the hard things known to a humankind.

I say mankind is a humankind.

And there's so many things that are out of your control.

So, yeah, you have one actor that you cast from.

One scene that something got screwed up and the take wasn't what you wanted.

Like, that's why I said it's the hardest thing known to humankind, I think, as far as you're in an art form.

So, I'm not saying as hard as digging a ditch in a coal mine in West Virginia.

I'm not saying that.

But, well, the hardest thing now is going to be to win four straight NBA titles in a row with the second apron.

That's the single hardest thing right now.

Well, we'll never see it again.

Well, as a person, as a Knick fan, and we hadn't won since the 17-17 season, we don't have that luxury of having how many rings you got: 17?

We have 17.

I like the Lakers who lie.

They count the five Minneapolis ones.

It's bullshit.

Come on, now.

Come on.

Can't count that.

That was a great rivalry, man.

It really was.

We'll see what happens now with the Lakers because they stumbled into one of the five best guys in the league.

That was not a stumble.

Well,

what's your conspiracy theory?

I ain't no stumble.

I know a stumble or a stumble, but

what are you trying to tell us, Spike?

I

who was that?

Was that Hogan's Hero?

I know nothing.

Did you like Hogan's Hero growing up?

It was a little, it was five years before I was Brady Bunch.

Partridge family was my era.

That was, that was, those are the scenes.

You know what's funny though?

In Crooklyn, there's a scene

where we used to have

four siblings.

So

we had to vote.

And the partridge family, the Grady Bunch, were back to back.

And they came on the same time as the Knicks.

Oh, really?

On W Channel 9.

So always got outvoted.

That scene is in the movie.

um i'm trying to think like so what time would that have been what what time would that so the knicks came on at seven and parturge and brady bunch were on at seven o'clock at night seven yeah seven thirty and eight o'clock eight o'clock we really didn't have a lot of tv options back then in new york channel channel two

four five seven nine eleven that was it yeah that was it we had the same we had six in boston and that was all we had.

All right, Spike.

Look, I want to thank you, and also, you do a great, great job, man.

I mean, you know sports, you know, even though you're from Boston, you know, you don't try.

What did Yoda say about the word try?

I try,

he didn't say that.

Yoda did not say that.

You know, my brother, what do Yoda say?

Yoda, Yoda, Star Wars.

What did he say?

There's no try, dude.

Anytime one of my students,

I have a stack, a zero, a stack

pile

of picture Yoda and the quote.

Anytime one of my students in class says the word try,

I snap my fingers, my TA plops that piece of paper pump.

Boom.

That's it.

Don't try to.

That word try got to go.

And

thank you, Mr.

Lucas.

I also want to point out you did this entire podcast with me with the 1986 Celtics finger behind your head.

Oh,

set up.

You got me.

I got you.

Hey.

Any sport, Boston in New York is great.

Spike, I hope I see you in the playoffs with a healthy Jason Tatum.

You think he's coming back?

I don't know.

Well, look, I don't, as you said,

this year's the write-off for us.

If he comes back, I just hope he didn't come back too soon and hurts it again.

That's the thing.

We've all written written off this year, but I think these guys are really competitive.

And if you tell them May, they're going to win.

Let me ask you a question.

Finally, I think if I got to go with my next thing, bud.

What do you think about the Knicks this year?

Go, New York, go, New York, go.

Coming out the East.

I think if it's a bet your life situation, they're the safest bet.

I'm not sure I would do the bet, though.

I still.

Do you think the Cavaliers?

I still feel like Milwaukee is going to be be heard from

i know everybody thinks that's crazy

i just haven't

even there anymore

having the best guy in the conference i still value so i have to mention them and then i really want to see orlando what those guys look together would be the other one but you have the best chance all right and i don't coming out of the east right i don't trust the cleveland thing at all but you could argue that they just had a dumb playoff series garland was hurt indiana made a couple crazy shots and all of a sudden they got bounced but that team won 64 games So maybe they'll have the eye of the tiger now.

Maybe that was like their club or line.

Let me say, so let me ask a question.

When New York wins the

MIG championship, it's not a jinx.

I'm just saying.

We win next year.

I want to be on the show.

I'm flying the next day.

Spike, you're always invited on the show.

Map, I want to come on a, since we, we haven't,

not all the time.

I'm talking about, we haven't won since the 72-73 season.

And I want to see, I want to be in this seat.

Look at that season.

You're always invited.

Map, I want to be here the day after we win.

So help me, God.

That sounds great.

You, you bring Shalamay.

What?

We can bring Shalom and we'll figure out your W fan movie.

Good.

I'm on.

All right.

Good to see you.

Thank you.

Oh, we left us on slow-ups.

Well, we got to keep going.

Last thing.

Yeah.

You're watching the film.

Yeah.

And how many times has Boston mentioned this film?

I'm asking, were you laughing when those one of those things happened in the film?

First of all, I know going into it, there's gonna be Shabshash fired at Boston and the movie set in New York, so I'm just waiting.

So, you knew it, I'm waiting.

So, I see Rick Fox.

I just say this: you knew those shotguns were coming right now.

I knew it was coming, so I had my bulletproof vest on.

Double barrel.

Well, I knew it was coming, but then I saw Rick Fox and I was like, friendly face, played with the Celtics for seven years, played with Larry Bird.

He won't be part of this Boston anti-propaganda.

Nope.

Boom.

You had him.

Then you had Turturo chanting this Boston sucks in the subway with 50 people.

You did a third thing, too.

There were three different anti-Boston things in there.

I noticed all of them.

Well, look, all I can say is.

Listen, you stay true to yourself.

That's what makes you you.

I love Mama's venue.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

Thanks so much to Spike Lee.

Thanks Thanks to Danny Kelly.

Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo and Saruti as well.

Good to have Saruti back.

Don't forget Rewatchables Rollerball last Monday and then Sinners coming up next Monday.

So you have the whole weekend to watch.

It's free on HBO Max.

If you get HBO Max, just knock it out.

A classic, an immediate classic.

Anyway, enjoy the weekend and I will see you next week.

I don't have

a few years

with them.

Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president, D.C.

Gambling problem, call 1-800-gambler or visit rg-help.com.

Call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland.

Hope is here.

Visit gamblinghelpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-877-8-HOPENY or text Hope NY in New York.