The Jalen Williams Game, Haliburton’s Injury, OKC Vs. MJ’s Bulls, and Giannis’s Future With Doc Rivers

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Black Friday Game Day on Prime. It's Bill Simmons, Black Friday Game Day coming to Prime, and it will be an epic day of live sports.

Speaker 1 Black Friday football at the center of it all with the Chicago Bears taking on the Philadelphia Eagles at 3 p.m. Eastern.
This might be an actual round one playoff game.

Speaker 1 That's followed by the final night at Emirates NBA Cup group play

Speaker 1 and a doubleheader starting with the Bucs and Knicks at 7 p.m., Giannis in New York again, and the Mavericks and Lakers at 10 p.m. Boy, I wish those two teams had a history.

Speaker 1 The whole day starts with the return of the Capital One Skins game as four league PGA golfers face off with $4 million in the line.

Speaker 1 Black Friday game day tees off with the Capital One Skins game at 9 a.m. Eastern before the Big Bears Eagles football game at 3 p.m.

Speaker 1 And it all culminates with a double dose of Emirates NBA Cup action featuring Bucks Knicks at 7 p.m. and Mavs Lakers at 10 p.m.
only on Prime.

Speaker 1 The Bill Simmons podcast is brought to you by the Ringer Podcast Network, where I have a new rewatchables coming for you. Not Monday night, Tuesday night.
It's New York City Month.

Speaker 1 We're doing Marathon, man, Dustin Hoffman, Sir Lawrence Olivier, the William Goldman book that turned into a movie directed by John Schlesinger. It's part of New York City Month.

Speaker 1 It's a really good one. Me and Chris Ryan, we recorded it today, had a great time.

Speaker 1 And that will be running on Tuesday night this week because we are running a very special Monday night podcast coming off game five, Pacers, OKC.

Speaker 1 You saw what happened. OKC won the game.
They took a 3-2 lead in the series. And our old friend, Doc Rivers, is going to be joining us to break down everything that he saw.

Speaker 1 And we'll ask him some other NBA questions, too. We haven't talked to him since you just coached another year with the Bucs.
That is all coming up next.

Speaker 1 We're going to take a break and then we're going to get to Pearl Jam. I'm not going to talk about the Red Sox today.
Maybe midweek or Thursday.

Speaker 1 The Devers trade. Controversial.

Speaker 1 Dumped money that they probably should have dumped. And yet, because it's the Red Sox, because of what's happened the last seven years, the Red Sox fans are pissed anyway.

Speaker 1 A lot to cover. I'll probably have to bring in a guest for that one.
But anyway, coming up, Doc Rivers, first a break, then Pro June. This episode is presented by State Farm.

Speaker 1 It's no secret that great teams need great teammates. I've been saying this for years.

Speaker 1 And when it comes to insurance, State Farm is there to help you find the right coverage for your home, car, and more.

Speaker 1 Whether you need an in-person or a digital assist, they're ready when life hits you with a full court press. Get a game plan that helps fit your life.
Talk to State Farm today.

Speaker 1 State Farm with the assist. Coverage options are selected by the customer availability and the eligibility vary by state.

Speaker 1 All right, we're recording 8:30 Pacific time. Doc Rivers is here.

Speaker 1 It's been a while for us. We just watched game five of the 2025 finals.

Speaker 1 You're in Florida. I'm in California.
I guess that's the Jalen Williams game. There might be many more games for him to come.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the Jalen Williams game. Yeah.
And the Shea game. And I really think it was more the Oklahoma bench game.
You know, it's amazing, Bill.

Speaker 2 I don't know how often this happens, but the rogue players play better at home. And, you know, obviously, you know, so did the Pacers rogue players on the road.
They all play well as well.

Speaker 2 And obviously, Halliburton, I think he's injured, didn't have a lot tonight.

Speaker 2 But at the end of the day, Jalen, Shea,

Speaker 2 and the Rogue players were the difference in the game.

Speaker 1 So Jalen Williams over the course of the playoffs, where

Speaker 1 you think he's got to be at least the Pippin, right?

Speaker 1 Not to compare anyone to Michael Jordan, but he's got to be the Robin, the Pippin

Speaker 1 that side. It's like, is this a year too early for him? Is this Scotty Pippin in 1990? Or is he actually ready for this? And the way he's played the last three nights, especially tonight.

Speaker 1 This felt like Pippin in 91 when they just blew the doors out of anybody and he's guarded magic and he just went up and it was like, oh shit, this guy's like one of the best 12, 13 guys in the league now.

Speaker 1 The stuff he was doing off the dribble, how comfortable he was going left hand, going right hand.

Speaker 1 I don't know what the ceiling is anymore for him, Doc.

Speaker 2 You know, what's interesting is a couple of things. Number one, last year he really struggled.
Everyone forced him right.

Speaker 2 That was the scouting port that every team have. If you can force him right, he struggles.
He went back to the lab, worked on it all summer. There's nothing better

Speaker 2 from a coach standpoint when you see a player come back the next NBA season and has worked on all the things that he needed to work on.

Speaker 2 And he went back. I mean, I can't imagine the hours that he put in.
But then I thought he was struggling a tad bit at the beginning of this series.

Speaker 2 And Bill, this is where, you know, the difference meets. Like, some guys kind of will under that pressure back-to-back years.
And it's almost like he has willed himself like, no,

Speaker 2 I'm that guy. I've arrived and I'm going to prove it.
And I'm not going to be denied. That's how he's playing.
This is as physical and as tough as I've ever seen him play.

Speaker 2 And he's playing magnificently.

Speaker 1 I went to the two Indiana games and I thought, especially in the second half of game four, he really took it to Siakam.

Speaker 1 And he took it to him physically and just athletically, everything.

Speaker 1 But really, physically, that's the big difference I've noticed just in seeing him in person over the course of the last couple of years is he's starting to use his body in a different way combined with the speed.

Speaker 1 And now guys are playing off him because they know they're going to lose the bounce off stuff.

Speaker 1 But I remember, you know, not to bring Giannis into this so early, but I remember when Giannis started to figure that out the first couple of years of his career where he had the athleticism, but as he got stronger, he figured out how to use his body and bounce off dudes.

Speaker 1 And it feels like that's happening for Williams. You've gone against him.
You went against him in the cup. By the way, congrats on the Commissioner's Cup.

Speaker 1 We haven't had you on the pod since you won the Commissioner Cup.

Speaker 2 We've talked since then. My gosh.
Well, thank you. That

Speaker 2 is forever ago.

Speaker 1 Did you bring the trophy to Florida or Jim? Where'd you keep it in your house?

Speaker 2 I kept it in Milwaukee, right where it should belong.

Speaker 1 Congrats on that.

Speaker 2 Well, thank you. And I will say, our thoughts going into that game, and we got away with it.

Speaker 2 Our size kind of ate them up like we were we're the more physical team you can see that we knew we had to make it a physical contest uh we knew going into that game if we made it about athleticism and speed then we had no chance but if we made it about size and power that they had no chance and that's why we won that game uh what i'm impressed with with williams and shea I don't think we talk enough about Shea, is not only do they play through the physical contact now, but they get their balance back.

Speaker 2 See, a lot of people can take a hit. Most people can't get back on balance and take a shot.

Speaker 2 That little turnaround, that little shimmy turnaround that he shot towards, I think it was the end of the third or the beginning of the fourth, he didn't have that game.

Speaker 2 He didn't have that mid-season.

Speaker 2 And now he's still adding as the playoffs is going on. So it's pretty impressive.

Speaker 1 So do you think they learned anything from that Commissioner's Cup game? As weird as that question is, because I remember we were talking about that during the holidays and you were like, yeah,

Speaker 1 were able to overpower them. I'm not sure anyone's overpowering this version of the Thunder, right?

Speaker 2 No, and I do think, you know, it's funny when Mark said after that game, this is something, this is a lesson

Speaker 2 that we'll put into our bag and that we've learned that there's another brand of physicality that we're going to have to come up with.

Speaker 2 And I thought, you know, I don't know if that game mattered. It did matter, but I don't know if that game taught him anything.

Speaker 2 But I do know that they put that in and said, we cannot let a team just play bully bully ball against us. And that's what we virtually did.

Speaker 1 So what did you see from tonight? You know, Indiana dominates OKC. Well, they didn't dominate, but the first three quarters of game four, they're in control of the game.
It feels like they have it.

Speaker 1 They're up 10 for like three minutes near the end of the third quarter, and they can't kind of put the game away. OKC can't hit a three, you know, and then OKC brings the game back with their defense.

Speaker 1 What was different about tonight?

Speaker 2 Well, first the game the other night, I thought that was the first time Indiana looked up and started thinking results for a second, you know, and it happens in the finals, man.

Speaker 2 You look at that scoreboard and you're thinking, man, we win this game. We went away.

Speaker 2 I thought

Speaker 2 Indiana played differently in the fourth quarter.

Speaker 2 I thought they blew it to in the third. I think I text you and say, wow.

Speaker 2 this game should be a 10 to 12 point game and it's now six or four or whatever it was and that allowed oklahoma back in it and you know as good as indiana is down the stretch oklahoma is pretty good because they have shea uh and that's that was shea's game to me uh the other night tonight's was jalen's game uh today was a different pace what they do bill they don't stop you know they just keep coming they keep coming they keep playing they keep playing and then eventually you wear down i thought there were points in the game tonight that oklahoma was close to going to the other way.

Speaker 2 You know, Indiana would turn the ball over. Some of them would take a bad shot, which Indiana did more tonight than I've seen all year.

Speaker 2 And then Jalen Williams just took the game over. So that's the difference.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I had written down. So it was, they got it to two

Speaker 1 the first part of the fourth quarter with that incredible that TJ McConnell brings him back in the third quarter. He's 15.
He's doing every, he's playing that.

Speaker 1 It's like TJ McConnell's greatest hits, basically.

Speaker 1 They got it to two.

Speaker 1 OKC misses big offensive rebound, swings out to Jalen Williams. He hits a three.
Then turnover, they get a fast break, Wallace layup. All of a sudden, it's seven again.

Speaker 1 So there was a split second where it felt like, oh my God, Indiana is going to do the thing they did for the first three rounds. And then it just flipped almost immediately.

Speaker 1 I mean, the offensive rebounds in this game, at one point, there was 32 combined. I'm just seeing what we ended with.
We ended with

Speaker 1 37 offensive rebounds, Doc, for 37 in the game for both sides.

Speaker 2 But none of them were at the rim. It felt like because there were a lot of long threes, there were a lot of long rebounds.
And there was a stretch where Indiana was getting off of it.

Speaker 2 I thought Mathery did a great job on the glass,

Speaker 2 just collecting them. They're just scrappy.

Speaker 2 But then I thought Hardenstein got a huge one.

Speaker 2 You know, both teams are really working the glass.

Speaker 2 Because what's going on in this series, it seems like there's a stretch in every game where one team goes small and the other team is bigger and the bigger team dominates the glass.

Speaker 2 And that happened again tonight.

Speaker 1 So we watched game one of Celtics Knicks together and you were calling out all the hunting that was going on on both sides, right? And, you know,

Speaker 1 that was pretty early in a series for two teams to try to figure out what they want to do offensively. As this series went along, we had game four.

Speaker 1 where they try to do the with SGA setting screens for Jalen Williams and them trying to do that two-man game, that was the only way to unlock how bad their three-point shooting was.

Speaker 1 What did they figure out tonight? Because it seemed like a lot of it was Jalen Williams just going downhill and Shea. They scored most of the points.

Speaker 1 And then Wallace and Wiggins, I think they had like six threes between them. That's it.
But did you see anything else they figured out?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I thought dribble penetration. I thought Oklahoma made a concerted effort, especially early in the game, to get to the paint.

Speaker 2 And they got to the paint and made plays, not necessarily shooting the ball. You know, Shea had a better assist night.
That didn't take but one.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 he had more assists tonight. And I thought they set the tone early with their dribble penetration, and those guys made shots, right?

Speaker 2 And then down the stretch, because the other guys were making shots, it felt like Indiana, they didn't leave guys as easy as they've been leaving guys.

Speaker 2 They were worried about Oklahoma making threes tonight. And that allowed Jalen Williams and Shea to get to the elbows and make shots, you know, and that was the difference.

Speaker 2 I thought the dribble penetration, they clearly came into this game thinking, let's get to the paint.

Speaker 1 So they had a 40-32 lead with eight minutes left in the second quarter. 40 points for OKC.
They had 12 assists and they had 10 on game four. So you're right.
It was like they made a concerted effort.

Speaker 1 The ball's got to move. When they move the ball,

Speaker 1 and that just opens up, yeah, that's that's that's what falls apart on the line.

Speaker 2 I thought we keep going back to game four. I kept thinking in game four,

Speaker 2 uh, we, a very important stat for coaches is shot quality. Like your shot quality.
Like, you know, you can win a game and have poor shot quality because you've had shot makers.

Speaker 2 And Oklahoma wins a lot of games because Shay and Jalen Williams are able to make tough shots. But when you watch that game four,

Speaker 2 every shot Indiana took was wide open. And they got it from ball moving and making the next shot.
And every shot Oklahoma took was contested and tough. And that's how Indiana got that big lead.

Speaker 2 And then in the fourth quarter, it flipped. And then it carried back over to tonight.
Oklahoma was making plays for each other. They were making the extra pass.
Indiana always plays that way.

Speaker 2 So they still got theirs. The difference is Oklahoma's shot quality tonight was really good.
And it's because they made extra passes.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so

Speaker 1 the second half of game four

Speaker 1 was just about as good defensively as I've ever seen anyone play in person. It was crazy.
And it got to the point where it just felt like over and over again with seven seconds left on the shot clock.

Speaker 1 Indiana was 30 feet from the basket trying to figure out, okay, now I guess I got to get a shot up. They carried that over into the first half, I felt like, okay, see.

Speaker 2 They really did. And Bill, the biggest difference is that Oklahoma has a guy.
Like,

Speaker 2 they can play low shot clock games because they have two guys, really, with Jalen Williams and

Speaker 2 Shea. Indiana, that's the one thing that they really don't have.

Speaker 2 uh they have a lot of guys that make plays but they don't have the one guy uh maybe seeak him uh because if you get the ball to seek him on the elbow in the right place he's he's pretty dynamic right but but other than that they don't that's not how they play um they don't play the iso end of the clock game and and oklahoma can do that and so that's been the difference since you know mid second half of game four so far and it and it showed itself today again.

Speaker 1 Well, so when you hear

Speaker 1 okay, say I don't know if they're the best defense I've ever seen, but they they'd be one of the first ones I'd think of.

Speaker 2 Well, I faced the Bulls.

Speaker 2 Well, that's the thing.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I saw the 90s Bulls.

Speaker 1 You're talking about 0-4 Pistons. There's been some great ones over the years.

Speaker 2 We're physical.

Speaker 2 You know, so they had a brand. Our 2008 Celtics were tough, but I still, listen, I've, I played against all of them.
And that one year with the Bulls,

Speaker 2 you know, Ron Harper,

Speaker 2 Scotty Pippen, Dennis Robin, Michael Jordan. I mean,

Speaker 2 those are four elite, elite, elite defenders.

Speaker 2 I don't think there was a better defensive team than that

Speaker 2 with their size and quickness. But this team is similar.

Speaker 2 They rival it a little bit.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they come in droves. Like the Bulls, when you can stop at four, five, they're seven, eight deep defensively.
You don't hear that very often when you talk about teams.

Speaker 2 Usually the great defensive teams, they have a one or two guys that are great defensively. Then everybody else are more team defenders.

Speaker 2 What separates Oklahoma, and you can put Indiana, who's very underrated defensively, they have a ton of solid individual defensive players.

Speaker 2 And that's what makes this series so intriguing.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the 90s Bulls because it's the only other time I've ever seen that in person of people, multiple guys picking up ball handlers at midcourt.

Speaker 1 And it almost seeming like defensive backs like jamming the line of scrimmage on receivers and the receivers being unable to get off the line of scrimmage.

Speaker 1 Like what they were doing to Halliburton, and today he was hurt, which we'll talk about in a second. But

Speaker 1 he wasn't. Not only was he not getting the spots he wanted to go to, they were disrupting him 45 feet from the basket, which is what those Bulls teams used to do.

Speaker 1 They used to be like two pit bulls waiting for people at midcourt.

Speaker 2 One of the things the Bulls did that I don't think any other team has ever done in the

Speaker 2 history of

Speaker 2 the game is the way they trap. You know, usually what you do is you send a guy to the sideline and then you bring him back to the middle and you trap.

Speaker 2 The Bulls actually would send a guy to the sideline.

Speaker 2 And as a guard, I remember this, you thought, okay, now I can beat him down the the sideline, but the guy guarding you would actually beat you to the sideline.

Speaker 2 And then you would turn back and there's another defender. And you're basically in the web.
It's over.

Speaker 2 No one's ever been able to do that type of trapping in the front court.

Speaker 2 They did it in the back court. They did it all the time.

Speaker 2 And I thought they did one other thing that no one ever talks about. We actually discussed it once.
They would trap the passer that was going to throw it to the post.

Speaker 2 If you remember that against Orlando, they figured out, okay, they're going to always throw it to the wing to throw it to Shaq.

Speaker 2 So, what they did, they trapped the passer. And the passer now is throwing it out away.
He forgets about Shaq. By the time they got it to Shaq, it's three seconds on the clock.

Speaker 2 I thought that was genius.

Speaker 2 I mean, that was Phil, but that was really, they had four pit bulls that could get away with it. And I've never seen a team do that.

Speaker 2 I will say, Oklahoma, they don't do that, but they have enough defenders that they may be able to get away with something like that.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I would say the difference between them and the Bulls defensively, the Bulls probably had the higher ceiling with those four, but there's a relentlessness because they just bring more guys in.

Speaker 1 It's like, yeah, this guy's in, really? And it just kind of never stops.

Speaker 2 Caruso, can you imagine? You're already struggling trying to score, and then they bring Caruso in. You know, that is unbelievable when you think about it.

Speaker 1 So as a coach, because you're coaching the Milwaukee Bucks right now and you're in this league that has Oklahoma City in it, that I don't even feel like is the team they're going to be two, three years from now, right?

Speaker 1 This is they're at like the start of whatever journey it is. I don't know if it's going to be two years, five years, seven years, but it's the beginning of it.

Speaker 1 When you see that they're already at this point now,

Speaker 1 how many teams can you remember since you've been playing her coaching

Speaker 1 where you're going, oh shit, not only are they the best team right now, but we're not even where we're going to go yet.

Speaker 2 Well, listen,

Speaker 2 we've both been around this league a long time, and you're right today.

Speaker 2 But you know, this league.

Speaker 2 I still remember Jeff Van Gundy, Mark Jackson, and Mike Breen talking about the Oklahoma City Thunder and when they were losing to Miami.

Speaker 2 Well, this is a tough loss, but they'll be back here over and over again. This is the first time they've been back.

Speaker 2 So you can never take it for granted. And they also have some things coming up called

Speaker 2 max contracts and paying guys. And, you know, what Sam has done is amazing when you think about it.
He's done this without, you know, shade, really. But next year, after this season,

Speaker 2 or in a year, they're going to have to start paying guys. And then all of a sudden, they probably won't be as deep as they are now because they're going to have to make some tough decisions.

Speaker 2 They've done this once and they decided on,

Speaker 2 who did they decide on over Hardin? I can't remember the center that

Speaker 1 was Hardin and they kept Ibaca and Perkins, basically.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they kept Obaca at the time over Hardin,

Speaker 2 which turned out to be, you know, not the best decision in the world.

Speaker 2 And I think, honestly, I thought they felt like Hardin wanted to go somewhere and have his own team.

Speaker 2 So, you know, they were making the decisions more about team building than just about individual talent. So it looks a lot worse than what it actually is.

Speaker 2 But that's the only thing that's going to slow this team down. And, like, you know, I'm a coach in the NBA.
I want to win a title, right? You know, the earliest, if Oklahoma City wins this one,

Speaker 2 then

Speaker 2 they've been made. You know, I always use that word, you've been made.
And now you're going to have to deal with them.

Speaker 2 Nothing, once you win, nothing can shake your confidence. The only way you knock them out now is you're going to have to kill them.
So

Speaker 2 this series isn't over, but we do know, and that's going to happen with either team that wins it, but especially Oklahoma because they're so young.

Speaker 1 We're going to take a quick break, come back, talk about Halbert. This episode is brought to you by Verbo Private Vacation Rentals.

Speaker 1 Verbo, you can save over $200 on select homes when you stay for a week. or more.
Say if you wanted to go catch a couple baseball games in Boston.

Speaker 1 Take some time off work, fly into Beantown, watch the Sox play. After that, you can do anything.
You can go book a Verbo in Cape Cod for a week.

Speaker 1 The world is your oyster or your lobster roll or clam trowder. Really, it has shells, gills, and it's indigenous to the Atlantic.
It's your edible metaphor of choice.

Speaker 1 They're crustacean crazy around there. Guess what? Since you stayed longer than a week, you saved over $200.
You know what that means? More shellfish. I love shellfish.
Hope you're not allergic.

Speaker 1 Next vacation, stay longer and save. Make it a Verbo.
Halliburton was clearly hurt. I don't know when it happened.

Speaker 1 And we live in this culture, especially when there's time between games, when whoever didn't play well in the previous finals game, that's a person that just takes all the shit for the next 36 hours.

Speaker 1 He didn't look right. It's interesting watching this in a 2025 context because we've seen some awesome players now have calf strains, try to play through them.

Speaker 1 And then something more horrible happens, right? Durant was the most famous example. Tatum in the Knicks series, I don't think his legs were 100% before that happened.

Speaker 1 So, in the back of your head, you're watching this. And on the one hand, especially your generation, it's like, you're hurt, get out there, keep playing, you got to help the team.

Speaker 1 But that has become the scariest injury, I feel like, in sports now. When somebody has a calf strain and they're stretching it out, and I'm just like,

Speaker 1 yo, be careful. He didn't look the same.
I don't know when the injury was, but can Indiana beat them with a compromised Halliburton? I would say no way.

Speaker 2 They can't beat him without Halliburton being solid. The one thing I will say is Halliburton is never going to be that guy that gives you 30.

Speaker 2 It's just not in his DNA. He can at times.
But what Halliburton does is so underrated to me, Bill, because he plays the right way.

Speaker 2 There was in game three.

Speaker 2 I think it was game three, whichever game, game four, the game they won. So game three.
Game three. Halliburton made back-to-back threes, I think, and the ball swung to him.

Speaker 2 And 90% of the league would have taken the shot. He checked, he checked, and he pumped faked, drove to the basket, and he got Salcombe a wide open shot.
And that's who he is.

Speaker 2 You know, he wants to make plays. That's why Indiana plays right because their best player always plays right.

Speaker 2 The problem with that is now you're in the finals and there's a microscope on you to score. That's not what he is.
You know, he he can score, and there's going to be games that he has big games.

Speaker 2 But what he can do is run a basketball team. And that's why Indiana is where they're at, is because the way Halliburton plays.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've been saying that on my podcast for the whole finals, that when people are like, he's got to step up, they need him to score more.

Speaker 1 I'm just like, that's just a fundamental misunderstanding of who he is.

Speaker 1 Steve Nash, you coach Chris Paul. Chris Paul didn't want to score 35 points in a finals game.
He wanted to have 20 and 12 or 18 and 14. That's who he is.

Speaker 1 If Chris Paul was taking 20 to 25 shots in a game, odds are it was going badly for you, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, even Magic, you know, Magic Johnson. I mean, Magic could score.
And when, when, you know, the difference was when he wanted to score, he could just score.

Speaker 2 You know, he's just bigger than everybody. But at the end of the day.

Speaker 2 Yeah, at the end of the day, you know, the games, game six, Philadelphia, his rookie year, he proved, yeah, I can score when I need to. But what he wanted to do is

Speaker 2 make everybody on his team better. And he did that.
And that's why they won. Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I don't know. When people criticize him for the scoring, I'm like, all right.
But

Speaker 1 I don't think he had the same explosiveness. And, you know, this is one of the things I wanted.

Speaker 2 I don't think he's had it for two games.

Speaker 2 I don't think this injury happened tonight. Right.

Speaker 2 I think this has been going on for at least two games now.

Speaker 1 Well, this is one of the things I wanted to ask you because you played in the 80s and 90s. And obviously there's more, there's definitely more running.
The defense is a little fiercer now.

Speaker 1 You've got more ground to cover.

Speaker 1 And some of these games, like I, I was just in disbelief in game three and four, just being there, how hard everyone plays for two and a half hours and how fast everyone's going. And is

Speaker 1 basketball becoming unsustainable at the speed we're playing it? Are we, are we actually putting too much on these dudes?

Speaker 1 Because when you watch it, it's like, I don't understand how these guys are upright after two hours.

Speaker 1 When you're watching, it just has to be.

Speaker 2 No, but you do remember in the 70s, every team shot 100 shots. Both teams always got 100 field goals a night.
Now there was no three-point line and people took shots quicker.

Speaker 2 So the game was at a faster pace. And then when the three-point line came in, shooting percentages plummeted, scoring plummeted, and now it's kind of caught back up.

Speaker 2 It's the 70s with a three-point line. That's basically what has happened now.

Speaker 1 But do you feel like it's as physical as the 70s, though?

Speaker 2 No, but I do think one thing I love what the league did mid-season last year, physicality is back. It's not what it was

Speaker 2 because I do think, and that's just hard for me to say,

Speaker 2 there was a line that was crossed at some point. where the game got so physical, it became ugly.

Speaker 2 But I love how they are officiating the games.

Speaker 2 I get so upset when there's a tacky file that they don't cop, that they call, like the two flagrants in

Speaker 2 game four or game three were ridiculous. You know,

Speaker 2 I didn't like either one of them.

Speaker 2 But other than that, so the game is more physical,

Speaker 2 not like the 70s. The pace is faster.
The athletes are bigger and faster. And yeah, Bill, you can make a case.

Speaker 2 Can every team sustain the speed and the pace that the pacers in Oklahoma are playing at I guess the other argument to that is yes because Oklahoma's done it and they're healthy Indiana has done it now Indiana had a ton of injuries all year but they're healthy they're one of the healthier teams in the VA right now these two teams that are playing and probably because to me they did play at this pace all year you know they they didn't decondition when the season starts.

Speaker 2 And I think that happens a lot in our league because we start wrestling. I think a lot of guys decondition when the season is starting

Speaker 2 and they're not ramped up right. And one of the things a lot of teams are going to now, we're starting to ramp up for the playoffs.

Speaker 2 That's what we should have been doing for the last six or seven years. And we got away from that.
And I think it's important.

Speaker 1 You know, when you came back to coaching last year, you broke my heart and you left the podcast.

Speaker 1 One of the things you were telling me was

Speaker 1 one of the things you were telling me was:

Speaker 1 this indiana is no joke like the way they pressure the ball the pace that they play with i'm kind of shocked like how effective it is um i like especially like how they go 94 feet against the other team's guards and you were like i don't think people realize how hard it is to play them and then of course they made the eastern finals last year but it seemed like you were

Speaker 1 They were on your radar basically the whole time you were the Bucs code. And then, of course, you play them in the playoffs.
You don't have Dame. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, But honestly, Bill, we played them the one time. And I came away from that game.
His foot had caught

Speaker 2 Casillo, who I talked to still, probably way too much.

Speaker 2 And I said, Sammy, you guys don't want to see Indiana.

Speaker 2 They will wear you out. And even if you win the series, you may not have anything left to beat the next team.
That's just how they play.

Speaker 2 And, you know, one thing we could do to eliminate it a little bit this year playoffs is we have giannis and there's nobody that's going to pressure yannis or pick him up so we had kind of a free pass against them this year last year we didn't have yannis and now you know dame and the guards they were worn out now dame didn't play but two games but they wore our guards down and you saw them do it against new york you saw them do it again this year i mean jalen brunson uh looked exhausted at the end of that uh series this year.

Speaker 2 And that's, you look at Shea at times now, you know, there's points in the game. They've already had to change their substitution pattern.

Speaker 2 Oklahoma has, so they can have Shea fresh at the end of the games. That's all from that constant pressure, and they're relentless with it.
They don't let up ever.

Speaker 2 And it's rough.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I noticed that game four,

Speaker 1 there was a moment in that game where SGA looked like kind of like spent. And he was able to get the second wind and come back in the fourth quarter.

Speaker 1 But that was the, that was the only time I really thought indiana was had a chance to actually win the title was during that third quarter it was mostly because of how shea just looked like a boxer who was like oh i got three rounds left he just had that vibe to him but he figured you know it's funny you said that i'm watching a game with austin and seth um

Speaker 2 and uh austin looked at seth and says oh my god indiana's about to win the world championship

Speaker 2 And that's how you felt in the middle of that third quarter.

Speaker 2 And then Oklahoma took that away. You got to give Mark a lot of credit, though, because Mark does not change his rotations very often.
And he did in that game.

Speaker 2 And he rested Shea, if you remember, the beginning of the fourth, and then took him out one more time.

Speaker 2 And I thought that was that was huge for Shea and Oklahoma to win that game was that little bit of rest.

Speaker 1 Did you think Indiana was this good? Or did they go up a level as this round, as these four rounds went along?

Speaker 1 Did they kind of push their ceiling ceiling up a couple floors?

Speaker 2 I've always said this, Bill, and the only people that can understand this is people who have gone all the way to the finals.

Speaker 2 If you look, if you ask every coach that has ever been in the finals about their team at the finals and when they started the playoffs, they will tell you we were a different team by the time we got to the finals.

Speaker 2 You grow so much. You grow each round.

Speaker 2 You find things about your team as a coach. The players find things about themselves.
Each round, teams get closer and closer.

Speaker 2 I always say the first round, every player is still trying to show everybody that they can play. They're still worried about half the teams that aren't, you know, the made teams.

Speaker 2 They're worried about contracts and all the BS they shouldn't be worried about. Then they win that round and all of a sudden teams get a little closer.

Speaker 2 Then they get through that round and they get to the eastern and western finals. You are a completely different team.
And then when you win that round, you go to a level where there's no more I.

Speaker 2 You never hear about selfish. How often do you hear about selfish play in the finals? You just don't see it very often.
And I really believe each team grows. Indiana was good.

Speaker 2 They were playing great coming into the playoffs.

Speaker 2 They beat us.

Speaker 2 They beat Cleveland, and they jumped on Cleveland.

Speaker 2 They beat the Knicks. And if you asked Rick Carlisle right now, he would tell you, I believed in this team, but we're way better now than we were in the first round.
And that's what happens.

Speaker 2 You keep growing. That's why when you have a team, even like us, you know, if Dame, I just kept looking at our team.
And I think a lot of coaches believe.

Speaker 2 And I know that because I've been there twice to the finals. I'm looking at our team and I'm looking like Gary Trent and A.J.
Green and all those guys.

Speaker 2 I'm like, man, each round, if we can get these guys, they're just going to keep getting better and better and better. And then what happens, they bring that back next year.

Speaker 2 You bring all the ATOs back next year. You don't have to waste half your training camp, put in new stuff.

Speaker 2 You've already done it throughout the playoffs and you jump and it gives you a head start, right?

Speaker 2 And that's where Indiana's at and that's where Oklahoma's at now.

Speaker 1 And that's where some of the teams that didn't make it, there was some hump that they didn't get over. Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 1 you weren't surprised by the Indiana-Cleveland series. And part of it was Garland was hurt, but you

Speaker 1 you just thought that was a scary matchup for Cleveland. But even you couldn't, even you couldn't have thought Indiana was going to do that, though.

Speaker 2 No, I did. I said it out loud that Indiana was going to win that series because I thought their guard pressure, they're one of the few teams that can match up to the Cleveland guards.

Speaker 2 But then, you know, Cleveland had major injuries coming into that. When they said guys in game one and two, I said, this series is over.

Speaker 2 The one thing you can't have in the playoffs, your key guys can't be hurt. You have to be healthy to win.

Speaker 2 You're not winning anything in the NBA playoffs.

Speaker 1 You mean like when you didn't have Kevin Garnett in 2009 and when Frank got hurt with two games left in the series? In 2010.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's hard to win. Let me put it that way.

Speaker 1 I vaguely remember that.

Speaker 1 This whole superstar. you know, like this 24-7 sports discourse and we talk about superstars.

Speaker 1 And like, I think Hal Burton's a superstar, but he doesn't have the stats that show he's a superstar um but you made the key point earlier that you can build a team around what he does right yeah isn't that the definition of a superstar or am i crazy well i don't know what a superstar is anymore uh yeah that would be my definition uh anybody that can make their team uh a championship level team should be considered a superstar.

Speaker 2 You know, I use this, and I've said this a million times. I'm sure I've said it on the pod before.

Speaker 2 One of the most meaningful things that have ever been told to me is by Bill Russell when I brought him in to talk to the team.

Speaker 2 And then he went back in the office. He was talking.
I think it was to me and Kevin. And he said, if I'm the only one that can be great, our team can never be great.

Speaker 2 But if I can be great and give everybody on my team room to be great as well, we will be a dominant team. And that's what I did.

Speaker 2 That's to me, there's a lot of guys, you know, you can make the case.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of guys if you just told them to shoot every time, pass when they wanted to, they're going to have all the stats, but they're the only ones that can be good on their team.

Speaker 2 And that has never worked in the history of the game. That has never worked.

Speaker 2 You have to give yourself to the team at some point to win. And, you know, Halliburton has done that.
And when your best player does it, Bill, it's easy to coach. Everybody else falls in line

Speaker 2 because you can't say he won't do it because he will do it. And it makes it easier for coaches for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I heard, I was driving home today. I was listening to Justin and Eddie on Series NBA.
They had Isaiah Hartenstein on.

Speaker 1 And they were asking him about, hey, your role was this way the first couple of rounds. In the finals, they haven't been using you as much.

Speaker 1 like what is it like to just have your role change like that in the biggest series of the season and he's like hey, we're just trying to win.

Speaker 1 And if I completely trust my coach at this point, and if he feels like we have better matchups than me, then I want our team to win. And that's it.
That's the end of the discussion.

Speaker 2 And that's who he is. Yeah, that's who he is anyway.
But it definitely, I think, you know, I always look back when Rick set, I can't think of the kid's name when he was in Dallas,

Speaker 2 but he did it in the finals. He set someone that in the history, he had not been a very easy guy to coach, but they had made the finals now.
And the guy just sat there and he's the happiest guy.

Speaker 2 Hey, I'm trying to win now.

Speaker 2 And that's what I'm talking about, about growth.

Speaker 2 It's funny, though, I will say this, and I know we're kind of segueing off when I bring this up.

Speaker 2 It also reminded me when you said they asked Hardenstein that, is I've had this thing, and I'm going to bring up Tom Thibodeau.

Speaker 2 that I think no team should ever do. When you lose, like in the first or second or third round,

Speaker 2 to have exit meetings the next day

Speaker 2 after you lose, because what happens is the Hardenstein conversation comes up, you know, with your front office guys. The problem is you just lost in the second round.
They're not as happy.

Speaker 2 You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 And then when they say, you know, tell me about the coach, well, there's going to be about four or five guys that really love you because you showed them love and you played them more.

Speaker 2 But there's going to be four or five guys who were on your side that may no longer be on your side when those meetings happen. And I've long said exit meetings need a month before we have them.

Speaker 2 Because when you have them the next day, the coach is in trouble.

Speaker 2 And, you know, I will say Tibbs and I did talk after he was fired, and that absolutely came up. Like, it couldn't have been anything good that came out of those meetings.

Speaker 2 and and so it's it's interesting we we're talking about hardenstein now in the finals

Speaker 2 coach can do anything you know you you know you remember in 210 i think we're in the eastern finals i think i played nate and baby to finish the game and i didn't bring kevin and those guys back in we won the game and no one cared because we were trying to win you know uh but when it happens earlier and you lose

Speaker 2 Guys don't handle that as well as they do when you get to the finals.

Speaker 1 So you're saying maybe the Knicks shouldn't have have fired Tom Thibodeau after he made the final four? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Obviously, you know, he only worked for me for a long time. So that one, you know, it's funny.
It stings you just as much, not as much as it stung Tibbs, but, you know, firing is hard.

Speaker 2 I've been fired three times. And, you know, and when it happens,

Speaker 2 you know, especially when it happens to one of your guys, you know, my guys are Tibbs, Ty Lou. When it happens to guys like that, it really bothers you because you know what they are.

Speaker 2 You know, both of them are just unbelievable coaches. And I always use the Utah model.
The reason Utah stayed good for so long, they never panicked.

Speaker 2 They didn't fire Jerry Sloan because he couldn't get to the finals. They knew he could coach.
There's certain franchises, Boston, really, for the most part, the Celtics, they don't make changes.

Speaker 2 Once they think they have the right coach, a good coach, they're right because they know they can scout better. They can draft better.

Speaker 2 They can make trades better because they know exactly what they're looking for. And, you know, I thought the Knicks were on their way to that and now Tips is gone.

Speaker 1 Well, you, I mean, you're one of the leaders of the coaching contingent. It's a league now that I think the five longest tenured coaches, three of them got the job in 2020, right?

Speaker 1 And then you have Spo and you have Steve Currow, the other two.

Speaker 1 And at this point, you're probably in the top 10 longest tenured coaches.

Speaker 1 You just got their year and a half.

Speaker 2 Somebody told me I was 12. Someone told me I was 12, which when you think about it, that's insane.
That's nuts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but here's the question.

Speaker 1 Because

Speaker 1 you know that,

Speaker 1 you know, it's only going to get worse. The salaries are going to go up, right?

Speaker 1 We're going to have this, this,

Speaker 1 whatever happens as the meteor rights money keeps coming in and we're going to have guys making 60, 65, 70 million a year.

Speaker 1 If they don't like their coach, who's going to win that one? It's not going going to be the coach

Speaker 2 it always should be the coach you know uh i tell coaches that uh and you know when i speak and i'm speaking at a coaching clinic in vegas uh i'm the first one to tell them like listen our job is to win period our job is to make players better but at the end of the day even if you do that uh you're still going to get fired sometimes and it's just part of it

Speaker 2 i mean i could i could look at the philadelphia situation and say we lost to the boston celtics no one picked us to win. We took in the seventh game.

Speaker 2 You know, two years before I got there, they got swept. And now we're trying to win the Eastern Finals.
But at the end of the day, you're not going to trade players away if it comes down to that.

Speaker 2 It's always going to be the coaching. That's just the way it is.
And I tell them, like, even Tibbs, you know, Tibbs is a big boy. He got it.

Speaker 2 you know it's not like you're going to hear him gripe about it or anything like that uh it's not fair but it's part of our job and we have to understand that. That's the tough part of the NBA.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and it might be a five-year job at this point. And if you last longer than four to five years, it's a borderline miracle.
We got to take one more break and then I want to talk about SGA quick.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Velveeta. Game Day is all about the tailgate spread.
Listen, if you're going to have friends over, you absolutely 100% have to have a lot of things for them to eat.

Speaker 1 Everyone gets hungry. They can say they're not going to eat, but guess what?

Speaker 1 If you lay out the right kind of spread and you have some good, cheesy, creamy, melty dip with some good crackers, some chips, they're probably going to eat it.

Speaker 1 So why not do creamy shells and cheese, melty Velveeta blocks, and cheesy jarred quesos? I don't know. Why wouldn't you? They're taking down one taste bud at a time.
Do yourself a favor.

Speaker 1 Stock up on Velveeta before kickoff. This episode is brought to you by Chime.
A great team avoids dumb penalties. So get Chime on your side to help avoid dumb fees.

Speaker 1 With Chime, you can bank fee-free, Unlock your paycheck early, and with qualifying direct deposits, you can get 1.5% cash back on eligible everyday purchases while building your credit.

Speaker 1 Start banking smarter today. Sign up for QIIME in minutes.
Terms and conditions apply. See chime.com for details.
Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank.

Speaker 1 Banking services and the secured QIIME Visa credit card provided by the Bank Corp Bank, NA or Stride Bank, NA members, FDIC. Optional service and product may have fees or charges.

Speaker 1 Details at chime.com/slash fees info with a qualifying direct deposit earn 1.5% cash back on eligible secured Chime Visa credit card purchases.

Speaker 1 On-time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary.
Learn about credit building and more at chime.com. This episode is brought to you by TikTok.

Speaker 1 Sports fans love to discover the next greatest player of all time. TikTok applies that passion to the whole game.

Speaker 1 You'll find fans breaking down games, people teaching the math behind advanced stats, even communities showing how sports connect to bigger cultural moments.

Speaker 1 One scroll, you're watching a trick shot, the next you're taking in the physics that make it happen. It's not just watching, it's learning, discovering, and sharing with millions of fans.

Speaker 1 Every day there's something new to discover on TikTok. All right.
So when you first started coming on this podcast a couple of years ago, I remember we had a long conversation about SGA.

Speaker 1 What did you see when, you know, when you coached him on the Clippers when he was a young pup. They trade him.
You make the point, hey, this guy's going to be really good.

Speaker 1 I wouldn't put him in the trade. They have to do it because it's their chance to get Kawhi and Paul George made them one of the favorites.
They throw in a bunch of picks.

Speaker 1 And then when we talked about this two years ago, this is when he was becoming a 30-point scorer. He was clearly a special player.
He's going to be first team on NBA.

Speaker 1 But then this year, it goes up a level. And now he's having one of the best start-to-finish guard seasons in the history of the position.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 1 yeah. It's and it's been steady, it's been consistent.
The team really takes on his personality. It's really interesting to watch in person, just their bench, it's all these quiet assassins.

Speaker 1 He's a quiet assassin, even he barely even talks to the refs, just kind of does his job. He doesn't talk shit to the other players, he just goes, goes, goes.
And technically,

Speaker 1 his footwork,

Speaker 1 his shots, like that shot you mentioned earlier, when he just had McConnell, McConnell, McConnell. Then he has that little fall away on the foul line on um

Speaker 2 he's one of the best scoring guards i've ever seen wait did you did you see this because i know you saw greatness but not this i loved him yeah i loved him i told you that i told you that three years ago yeah um but i mean come on i mean no one saw this uh

Speaker 2 i i i will say and we talked about sam casille earlier Sam was was

Speaker 2 really high on him and almost devastated when we were going to trade him.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 I remember us talking that night because I had to make the call, you know.

Speaker 2 Bill, I guarantee you,

Speaker 2 I know I remember it. I know where I was at because when the trade finally went down,

Speaker 2 Lawrence calls me and tells me Shay's in the trade.

Speaker 2 You know, it's so funny, Bill. I was so happy that we got Kawhi.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 I was,

Speaker 2 it bothered me to make that call to Shay. And I've shared that.

Speaker 2 That was a tough call.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 he handled it like such a pro.

Speaker 2 But you also felt that it was like this,

Speaker 2 I'm going to make you pay for this trade.

Speaker 2 That's how you felt.

Speaker 2 I called Sam and Sam had just talked to him

Speaker 2 as well. And Sam says, I tell you, we just gave away an assassin.
And

Speaker 2 we better win it because this kid's, he's going to come back and haunt all of us. And, you know, I'm so happy for him, Bill, because he reminds me a lot of Maxie.

Speaker 2 It's funny as a coach, you have some of these young guys that are just sponges.

Speaker 2 He never, I, I coached Shea hard. I coached Maxie hard.
And both of them could take it.

Speaker 2 wanted more.

Speaker 2 They wanted to learn.

Speaker 2 They just both are very similar.

Speaker 2 You think they're these nice guys? Like Shay, as you said, he comes off as this nice guy. Shay's a stone-blooded killer.
He does not care about making you happy when you get on the floor.

Speaker 2 And he had that when he was a rookie. Now, the way he's playing now, I don't think anyone saw that.

Speaker 1 The footwork and the consistency and how the ball never hits the rim on half of these shots,

Speaker 1 it's just, there's something eerie about it. I've never seen anything anything like it.

Speaker 2 For his pace, you can't speed him up. You're not going to speed him up.

Speaker 2 Where he's gotten so much stronger. And to me, his ability, you know, he gets away with that push, but he also gets pushed.

Speaker 2 And what I'm surprised by, I think Nimhart has done an amazing job and Neesma both, yet Shay's averaging 30.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 2 you know what I mean? And they're doing an amazing job defending him. His balance is unbelievable, as good as any player I've ever seen

Speaker 2 at being able to take a hit, get his feet, and be able to take a shot with rhythm. And he can do it left or right.

Speaker 2 But that was the one thing that stood out his rookie year was his pace.

Speaker 2 It was obvious. Like, man, this guy has an NBA pace.
And he's never played an NBA game. It's innate.
It's in him.

Speaker 2 What he didn't have was a size and physicality. And now he has that as well.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'm trying to think of other guys like that. Because we talked about this.
I was going to those games that rookie year.

Speaker 1 I always thought he was going to be almost like more of a Nemhar type, like the defense glue guys fill in the spot, good playmaker. But I never saw this guy.

Speaker 2 Yeah, footwork, guys. Michael had that.
You know, Michael just did it so quick. And so athletically,

Speaker 2 no one ever talked about his footwork. Michael's footwork was unbelievable.
You know, how many times do you see him? He gets to his spot, he gets his balance.

Speaker 2 He just did it so quick and so fast that no one really, where Shea does it slower and takes his time. You know, Paul Pierce is similar in a lot of ways with his footwork and his time.

Speaker 2 And, and, or you can go way back to like Kiki Vanderway's great footwork. Shea has all that.
Like, but Shay's, the difference is what you said, his footwork.

Speaker 2 And then the last thing that he's done, two years ago, you could force him to shoot threes.

Speaker 2 Now he's shooting that at a high clip as well.

Speaker 2 And so that's made him virtually unguardable.

Speaker 1 So what happens in game six, you think?

Speaker 2 Boy, I don't know. I really don't.
I think the series may be over because I don't think Halliburton's healthy.

Speaker 1 That's where I've landed as well.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but if Halliburton can give them a game. You know, I don't know who's going to win this.
You know what I really want? I really want a game seven. You know,

Speaker 2 I love NBA NBA basketball.

Speaker 2 I love the coaching part of it. I love the playing part of it.
But I love watching big games. I love watching game sevens.

Speaker 2 And I hope we have one. I think it'd be great.
I think you would see two young teams.

Speaker 2 And let's say this as well.

Speaker 2 You know, I guess Shay is a superstar, right? And Halliburton is one. Yes.

Speaker 2 Shea is starting to be a household name now. But this is the first series in a long time that we haven't had a series with just at least one or two household names.

Speaker 2 It's been great.

Speaker 2 It's been great to watch. It really has.
I think this has been an absolutely fantastic series. I think it's been coached great by both coaches.

Speaker 2 But I think you hit on it. And it's what I think why ratings are up and the fans are enjoying it.
There's two teams that are playing hard.

Speaker 2 The intensity of these games have been off the chart. And it's great to watch.

Speaker 1 I don't care about the ratings because I feel like this is a one-for-us finals.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's like for the people who actually like basketball, it's not for like my mom, where my mom's like, I heard LeBron's in the finals. I'll watch like

Speaker 1 all the casuals are out, and this is just the hardcore. And by the way, like, this has been the league's biggest problem for the entire decade is trying to create new stars, new teams.

Speaker 1 They put the same guys on, you know, you could see it in Christmas. You guys didn't even make Christmas in December with Giannis, um which is

Speaker 1 which is awful right yannis is one of the people they should be pushing

Speaker 1 yeah but i but i think you know they're they're creating new teams and and new stars hopefully i i did you hear what magic said on first take i actually thought this was really smart he was talking about their the dumb face of the week conversation which i i i hate But he was saying like, the true definition of a superstar is can you sell out an opposing building?

Speaker 1 Are people going to come to see you? And I was like, you know what?

Speaker 1 I think that actually is the definition. Can you sell out the other team's building? How many guys have done that in the last 40 years?

Speaker 1 It's less than 10.

Speaker 2 It's been a lot. Yeah.
I mean,

Speaker 2 if I, let's say I didn't coach in the league and I would just love the ball, basketball the way I loved it.

Speaker 2 I'm going to watch Steph Curry play every day. every chance I get.

Speaker 2 He's going to do something extraordinary. He moves without the ball.

Speaker 2 One of my favorite stats in NBA history, in the history of the game, was Steph,

Speaker 2 the year Steph won the MVP, the year they won it his first title, he had the ball in his hands 47%

Speaker 2 less than the year before. Wow.

Speaker 2 And that just, to me, is that, you know, I say this term, our players cringe when I say it. Like, well,

Speaker 2 we watch film and I said, all right, guys, the first clip is Coach's porn. I always call it Coach's Porn.
And it usually is some beautiful play.

Speaker 2 And, you know, it's funny, like Giannis and a couple of guys just love it. They, they'll say it now to the bench.
Yeah. Make sure that's on the mural.
That's Coach's porn.

Speaker 2 We're, we're, Steph has it all the time, you know, so you can watch him play. Uh, LeBron and his heyday, you know, just is passing.
Uh, you, you, you would pay to watch him play.

Speaker 2 Giannis, you would pay. You just would go.
And what is it? What are they going to do tonight? You know, but

Speaker 2 it's not a long list, you know,

Speaker 1 Caitlin Clark has it right now. I feel like at WNBA, you could feel she was out for two weeks and it felt like the league stopped.

Speaker 2 Listen, Caitlin Clark is pistol pete.

Speaker 2 Right. She really is.

Speaker 2 I can watch her. You know, it's funny in college, everyone was mesmerized by a shooting.
I'm like, that's the least of her game. It's her passing.

Speaker 2 And what it's a great example of what we talked about with Halliburton is when you watch Caitlin Clark's team play, they run the floor like there's no, you know why?

Speaker 2 Because they know they're going to get the ball. They make cuts because they know they're going to get the ball.
It's amazing. And

Speaker 2 that's what a superstar does for his team right there. And yeah, she is a, she is an absolute superstar.
She may be the biggest superstar in basketball right now or top three.

Speaker 1 At one point today, they ran two straight commercials with her during one of the breaks in the finals game tonight i was like oh she's arrived you have a superstar on your team that you guys have been just trying to trade for the last month apparently by reports yeah

Speaker 1 you're just offering yannis is on ebay now she seems to convince anyone to make an offer

Speaker 2 it's so ridiculous and i've heard all these you hear all this stuff and but you do don't you don't like it you know when you hear it because you know it's not true Bill.

Speaker 2 And, but it's still like your players here and everybody else hears it. You know, I remember telling you the story when I was in Boston.
I'm on a treadmill working out.

Speaker 2 That's when I could run still, you know, running on a treadmill. And they announced that

Speaker 2 the Boston Celtics are about to trade Rondo.

Speaker 2 I think it was to the Lakers or someone. And I was like, what?

Speaker 2 And it was absurd. Like, we had never had any conversations, but

Speaker 2 Rondo heard it. You know, and so that's the only thing I don't like about all this now.

Speaker 2 It's, you know, I I don't know how many more times Giannis has to say he wants to be a buck and he wants to win a title with a buck. And it's so cool to me, you know,

Speaker 2 because it's not the way it's done anymore.

Speaker 2 But with certain guys, you know, I don't think Steph Curry would ever leave Golden State, ever.

Speaker 2 And I'm hoping, obviously, Giannis is the same wave. That's the way he's been so far.
And it's been great. It's been awesome.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I've been trying to tell people on the pod for the last month that, first of all, he doesn't want to leave. Second of all, you'd be crazy to trade him when the East is wide open.

Speaker 1 You have the best player in the conference. And it just feels like, especially after watching the playoffs this year, it's like, I'm pretty sure I'd want Giannis in the East next year,

Speaker 1 would be my choice.

Speaker 2 So I said this before the playoffs. I said, there's never been a better time

Speaker 2 that I can remember in the NBA

Speaker 2 for you to win a title, meaning anyone. Right.

Speaker 1 Like 10, 11 teams, if things broke the right way, maybe.

Speaker 2 If things break the right way, there's no dominant team right now. Oklahoma may become that if they win, but there's nobody you're scared of in the NBA.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 2 So right now,

Speaker 2 Orlando made a huge trade yesterday.

Speaker 2 There's going to be four or five of those. There's next year.
in the East and the West, because I think, listen,

Speaker 2 the West gets a lot of love. I'm going to just stop there.

Speaker 2 But I don't think there's any team, any East team was scared of a West team,

Speaker 2 if you know what I mean. Like, I felt like if we got out of the East, you know, Oklahoma would have been the best team.
That was the one team you're like, man, they're tough.

Speaker 2 But

Speaker 2 I don't think there's a team. You know,

Speaker 2 we were worried about Denver, but they let a lot of guys go and they're not the same. There's no dominant team right now.
Um, but we have one of the dominant players, and so we have a shot.

Speaker 2 And so does the Knicks and you know, Boston. We'll see by the end of the year if Tatum can come back.
I hated that injury. I hated seeing it.

Speaker 2 And in the West, too, like, you know, Oklahoma, let's say if they win it, Clippers, Denver, Lakers.

Speaker 2 Golden State. has a full year now with Jimmy.

Speaker 2 It's wide open, and that will be great for the league.

Speaker 1 This episode is brought to you by Apple Watch. Real talk for a second.
You think you're crushing it with sleep? You're getting eight hours, you're doing everything right, feeling great about it.

Speaker 1 Well, using the Apple Watch is kind of like checking game film. It breaks it all down for you.

Speaker 1 Sleep duration, bedtime consistency, interruptions, gives you a play-by-play of exactly what happened while you slept. No questions asked.
My wife has been on this from the get-go.

Speaker 1 She's studying, it's like the all-22 in NFL. You tweak a few things, cut back on late caffeine, maybe actually go to bed when you say well, boom, you might actually start waking up feeling rested.

Speaker 1 Apple Watch helps you figure out your sleep so you're not flying bunny anymore. And you can find out more at apple.com slash Apple Watch Series 11.

Speaker 1 iPhone 11 or later required. This episode is brought to you by Whole Foods Market.
At Whole Foods Market, you'll find great everyday prices for this Thanksgiving. Check out their 365 brand.

Speaker 1 No antibiotics ever turkeys start at $149 a pound with Prime with Organic Birds at $299 a pound. You'll find Thanksgiving essentials like condensed soups.
I love those.

Speaker 1 Instant mashed potatoes, like those too. Organic baking spices plus low prices on everything else you need from fresh produce to frozen appetizers.

Speaker 1 Enjoy so many ways to save on your Thanksgiving spread at Whole Foods Market. Terms Apply.
The dame injury,

Speaker 1 among the worst injuries you've, you've,

Speaker 1 from a coaching standpoint, where you know right away and you start doing the math and you're like, oh my God, not only is it for this year, but it could be like a huge part of next year, maybe all next year.

Speaker 1 Do we, is there any chance he comes back or you're not you're staying out of it?

Speaker 2 I'm staying out of it, but I do think, yeah, I think he'll come back by the end of next season, you know, because he had it early enough in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 But I got to say this about Dame. Dame had two injuries, you know.

Speaker 2 You know, I jokingly told Dame, I cried twice for you, damn it,

Speaker 2 in one year.

Speaker 2 You know,

Speaker 2 because when he had the blood clot, Bill, there was a moment when I got the news because I'm old and I know what blood clots usually mean.

Speaker 2 You know, so when I first heard the news, I literally, my eyes water, because I'm thinking, this guy's about to get robbed of the rest of his career.

Speaker 2 And then within the next day, we find, okay, no, not career threatening.

Speaker 2 He's going to be, he may even come back um and then when he went down and i walked out on that floor and the first thing he said to me was man i think i sprained my ankle and i was i didn't say anything but i was you know i was looking at it you know i my brain i was thinking that wasn't an ankle uh but let's

Speaker 2 i remember saying let's kick you in the back and that was it you know i think darwin or someone came and grabbed him but man you just the guy does everything you ask him to do he does all the work and then bam that happens.

Speaker 2 That is part of the game, you know.

Speaker 2 But that was a rough one for me to see.

Speaker 1 Well, it sounds like, I mean, the one thing from, from talking to you over the last year and a half and so, it really seems like you like the team.

Speaker 1 Like the group of guys, like you guys had the right vibes. And,

Speaker 1 you know, I even thought

Speaker 1 if you had gotten by Indiana somehow, like, who knows? Like,

Speaker 1 you were really optimistic. I was surprised.
I love the group.

Speaker 2 You know, Giannis is one of those like Kevin Garnett superstars that

Speaker 2 you can coach him hard, but he's fun to coach. You know what I'm saying by that?

Speaker 2 That gave me life again.

Speaker 2 I needed that.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 like Bobby, we just got a bunch of grown-ups.

Speaker 2 I keep saying that. We got a bunch of grown-ups and we got the right mix.
I do believe teams.

Speaker 2 uh the old and the new you need a mix of both i i think uh oklahoma adding the hardensteins and and the Carusos, you know, was huge for them. They needed the right.

Speaker 2 You can't, you know, teams make a mistake. They go out and just get any vet.
You can't do that. You have to get the right vets.
And Oklahoma did that. And you can see that.
Caruso,

Speaker 2 game four, you know, we could talk about Shea and all that. Caruso won game four for them.
He single-handedly willed them to that game. And that's that veteran leadership.
He had won a title before.

Speaker 2 He knows what it takes. He does all the dirty work.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that's how you feel. That's what I like about our team.
We have young guys and A.J. Green, Gary Trent, still really young.
But then we have older guys.

Speaker 2 You know, I had lunch with Brooke yesterday and like you can't get enough of those guys. You know, we're in Orlando, so Brooke's at Disney, obviously.

Speaker 2 So you can find them and you can have lunch with them.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 I think that's what makes it. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I didn't talk. We didn't talk since you had this last season.

Speaker 1 Was there a player that you went against that you were just shocked by you didn't realize until you were coaching how good somebody was or how good somebody had the potential to be? Anybody jump out?

Speaker 2 Brunson, Brunson.

Speaker 1 How come?

Speaker 2 Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 2 I liked him, you know,

Speaker 2 in Dallas.

Speaker 2 You know, he played okay against me when he, the first year.

Speaker 2 in Philly, but

Speaker 2 when we played them, when I came, you know, and I'd done a couple of games, but when we played them, I think it was at home

Speaker 2 last year, and I was like, holy gosh,

Speaker 2 you, this guy is, he's good. Like, he is,

Speaker 2 he's

Speaker 2 with his size,

Speaker 2 to be that unstoppable to me is just absolutely unbelievable. You worry about his health.

Speaker 2 because the way he plays, he plays almost, you know, running back basketball, if you know what I mean. Everything's physical, everything's tough.
But man, he's way better than I thought he was.

Speaker 1 If you were the czar of the NBA, was there a rule change you would do? Is there anything that drove you crazy as a coach?

Speaker 1 Has the league evolved in a certain way that drives you nuts?

Speaker 2 No, I mean, I like the way the league is evolving right now. I really do.
I like that the game is getting more physical.

Speaker 2 I hate the fact that

Speaker 2 if I use a challenge

Speaker 2 in the first half, only have one laugh. I do think if I win a challenge, I should keep my challenges.
I don't think I should lose them. And the only rule that I would change

Speaker 2 is at the

Speaker 2 last play of a game should always be reviewed, whether you have a challenge or not.

Speaker 1 That's interesting. So it's like, so somebody makes a shot at the end, but you have no challenge, they just have to do it anyway.

Speaker 2 Yeah, because, you know, I kept thinking that Detroit Knick game that was clearly a foul

Speaker 2 and they missed and didn't call it.

Speaker 2 Wouldn't you be sick if that was game seven in the NBA finals

Speaker 2 and you didn't have a challenge?

Speaker 2 That would be awful. So I do think coaches should be able to keep their challenges.
You know, if they get it right, they get it right.

Speaker 2 You should be able to keep it. And then the last play of the game should just be challenged.
If it's close,

Speaker 2 the ref should be able to say, I want to take a look. And if they had taken a look in that game, they would have called a foul and Detroit would have won that game.
And so, you know, I do think

Speaker 2 that's the one play that should just be challenged.

Speaker 1 What happened to the game? One more row.

Speaker 2 One more row.

Speaker 1 Yeah, let's hear it.

Speaker 2 Out of bounds, out of bounds should just be done in Secaucus. We don't need headphones for that.

Speaker 2 Right. Like, just look at it and make the choice That would save us five minutes a game,

Speaker 2 which Al Michaels tells me all the time.

Speaker 2 You got to speed the end of the games up.

Speaker 2 So that would actually happen.

Speaker 1 What's the right number of games for the regular season?

Speaker 2 Boy, I get into this.

Speaker 1 Just do it.

Speaker 2 70.

Speaker 1 You want really 60.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I'd say 70. 70 is the perfect number.
It really is.

Speaker 2 I think you should start the season later. You know, I loved the one lockout year when we started it.
That was, I think the first game was Christmas Day. I wouldn't do that.

Speaker 2 I would start it December 1st just to get a rhythm. So by Christmas, you know, you can kind of have some big games.
But 70. And for me, it's been, I've always stayed on 82, Bill,

Speaker 2 because

Speaker 2 Everybody else did it, you know, and so you want to say 82. But I do think the more we keep talking about this,

Speaker 2 I think at some point we may have to have a serious discussion because no one wants to see injured basketball. We want to see healthy guys play.
And the facts are guys are getting injured more now.

Speaker 2 And we have to figure that out.

Speaker 1 Especially like lower leg injuries, just feels like there's more than ever.

Speaker 2 I mean, Jason Tatum is too young to have an Achilles.

Speaker 1 Period.

Speaker 2 And so that made no sense to me. And so there's something that's going on because there's more killers, there's more blood clots.
There's something going on, and we have to figure it out.

Speaker 1 All right, last question.

Speaker 1 Larry David, his Knicks team makes the final four

Speaker 1 and falls short.

Speaker 1 What was that roller coaster ride like in Tex, even though you weren't in the same spot as he actually had a good Knicks team for once?

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, it was rough for him, you know, because he went to that game one,

Speaker 2 Indiana, and they lost.

Speaker 1 And he left.

Speaker 2 And he left. He was supposed to be in the same seats in game two, and he couldn't do it.
He just couldn't.

Speaker 1 He left the next morning.

Speaker 2 He was gone. He left the next morning.
And so he calls me and says, I'm coming back because I want to play golf with my guys on Sunday. And I said, you're a freaking liar.

Speaker 2 That is not why you're coming back. You're coming back because you're superstitious and you're sitting in game one and they lost.
and so you're trying to change the mojo

Speaker 1 and that's larry 101 he blamed himself for the loss he did

Speaker 2 miserable he was miserable over that game uh and he refused to go in game two because he didn't want he just said i want no parts of it

Speaker 1 he's a real fan like he is into it it's awesome It was great to have the Knicks fans back, all the versions of them with the biggest fan base. I mean, you played there.

Speaker 1 You got to see it firsthand, but it's really like the all-time craziest fan base. When it's going great, their chests are out.
They're going nuts.

Speaker 1 As soon as it goes bad, they are the most despondent fan base you're ever going to have. They was the game of immersion.
Go to New York, go.

Speaker 2 You know, I was with Nick, and we had that run and that song, Go New York, go.

Speaker 2 The city was on fire. It really was.
And that's how you felt this year, you know.

Speaker 2 And I do think, you know, Dolan gets a lot of heat, but I don't know who's doing it, but whoever thought of bringing all the ex-Knicks back to games to continue this movement. Yeah, it was awesome.

Speaker 2 It was really awesome. We need one more guy to show up, and then it's all done.
Oakley.

Speaker 2 And good luck there.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know if that's happening.

Speaker 1 That's back in the day. You might have to broker that one, Doc.
All right. So you have.
No, thank you. So you're in Orlando.

Speaker 1 You're going to celebrate the Commissioner's Cup and Seth Curry's three-point percentage title.

Speaker 2 How about that? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 Seth Curry, 46%, 49%, whatever it was, led the league.

Speaker 2 Yeah, we have trophies at the Rivers House right now.

Speaker 2 We have some hardware from the regular season.

Speaker 1 How do we get him to Denver?

Speaker 2 I actually think the perfect place for him would be Golden State.

Speaker 1 Oh, is that possible?

Speaker 2 I don't know.

Speaker 2 I don't know if either one of them would want it, actually, but I do think, forget that, it has nothing to do with that it's the way they play

Speaker 2 he fits perfect yeah you know and i've said that for two or three years and and whenever you bring it up in the family they kind of let's let

Speaker 1 uh but i do think it'd be sensational it'd be great for ask you actually do you think more teams are going to emulate this okayc indiana fast pace nobody has the ball for too long people keep cutting and moving is this going to be like a copycat thing with that

Speaker 2 well everything in our league is copycat a little bit as you know

Speaker 2 um i do think not exactly the way they play but i do think because of collective bargaining uh i think teams are starting to see trying to have the loaded three-star team doesn't work anymore uh so i do think you have two teams now that you can make a case there's a superstar and then there's really really really good player and then a lot of good players.

Speaker 2 I think that's the model you're going to see. I don't know if everyone's going going to adopt the same style, but I do think that's what you're going to start seeing: is that model of team?

Speaker 1 Yeah, not every team can do it, but it would have to be a team that has a bunch of guards, you know, and is unselfish. But I don't know, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 1 Um, all right, Doc Rivers, it was great to see you. I'll see you in LA.

Speaker 2 Man, people

Speaker 2 walk on the street and say, hey,

Speaker 2 give up this coaching.

Speaker 2 Get back to the podcast.

Speaker 1 I know people love the pods.

Speaker 2 So, um, we'll get back at some point for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I'll see you in a way, but say hi to the Curry family and the Rivers family and all the family members. But it was great to see you.
Thanks for doing this with us.

Speaker 2 Good seeing you.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Eduardo Gahau, as always.
Thanks to Doc Rivers. Great to have him on.
Really miss that guy.

Speaker 1 And I know I'm going to be Thursday night after game six live on YouTube. That's definitely happening.
Might have another podcast midweek. Not sure yet.
New rewatchables coming on Tuesday night.

Speaker 1 We are doing Marathon Man for New York City month. So stay tuned for that.

Speaker 1 Don't forget, you can watch all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel, and we are a video podcast on Spotify. As well, I will see you in a couple days.

Speaker 1 Must be 21 plus in president select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus in president, D.C. Gambling problem, call 100 gambler or visit rg-help.com.

Speaker 1 Call 1-88-789-7777 or visit ccpg.org slash chat in Connecticut or visit mdgamblinghelp.org in Maryland. Hope is here.

Speaker 1 Visit gambling helpline ma.org or call 800-327-5050 for 24-7 support in Massachusetts or call 1-8778-HOPENY or text NY in New York.