The Knicks Stay Alive With Rob Mahoney and Joe House, Plus NFL Offseason Intrigue Rankings With Albert Breer

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Speaker 1 So coming up, I went live after game five Pacers Knicks with Rob Mahoney and Joe House, and then brought in Albert Breer to talk about all the NFL stuff that's happened over the last month since the draft, things you might have missed if your head was buried in the NBA playoffs.

Speaker 1 So that's all next. We'll take a break.
We'll bring in Pearl Jam and then Joe House and Rob Mahoney. All next.

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Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Starting the BS podcast here with Rob Mahoney

Speaker 1 and Joe House. Are we sober, House? Are we buzzed? Where are we?

Speaker 2 Late night house.

Speaker 1 Late night house.

Speaker 2 Let's see what the cards give us.

Speaker 1 Groggy, like a little letting it loose house, unlike Andrew Nemhard today.

Speaker 1 We're doing this live on YouTube. I thought this was going to be an awesome game today, and New York had other ideas.
A couple of the Pacers had other ideas.

Speaker 1 Did New York figure anything out today, Mahoney, or did Indiana just suck?

Speaker 3 I think they figured out how to play defense like they had something to lose. You know, I think there's games where the Knicks' defensive problems are personnel-based, are schematic.

Speaker 3 That's been the case in the series to some extent. In this game, I didn't think they changed a ton.
They changed some.

Speaker 3 Mostly they just played with actual intensity, especially on the perimeter to the point that it did feel like the Pacers kind of forgot for a while that they were allowed to move into the direction of the basket.

Speaker 3 Like it was all side to side. It was all handoffs handoffs up top.
Once they, you know, Ben Matherin came in and decided to cut and they decided to drive a little more, the game changed a bit.

Speaker 3 But I thought the Knicks' perimeter defense pressured them out of a lot of their stuff, and they deserve a lot of credit for that.

Speaker 1 What'd you think, House?

Speaker 2 The Knicks did the thing that's most important in basketball, which is make the shots.

Speaker 2 They started off by the making of the shots in the first quarter, and that had the effect of keeping the Pacers from running.

Speaker 2 So we had two quarters from the Pacers where they scored less than 25 points.

Speaker 2 They scored 45 points in the whole first half, 23 points first quarter, 22 points second quarter, because the Knicks did the making of the baskets, Bill Simmons.

Speaker 1 And Indiana stunk.

Speaker 1 Not a good game for them.

Speaker 1 It's pretty tough when Ben Matherin saves you from having like a 75-point game, which is where we're headed.

Speaker 1 And the stats reflect how bad it was, but it was even worse watching it.

Speaker 1 Neesmith was one for eight.

Speaker 1 He only played 15 minutes, by the way.

Speaker 3 Yeah, they seemed like they were limiting him with that angle, probably. And that, I mean, Jalen Brunson feasts every minute that Neesmith isn't on the field.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And once they kind of realized maybe the game was a little behind them, they started to get a little more careful.

Speaker 1 Nemhard was three for eight. It felt worse.
Three turnovers.

Speaker 1 Turner.

Speaker 1 Yeah. 24 minutes, five points, four turnovers, and a couple of like really just awkward offensive moments 25 feet from the basket where he's like trying to dribble against Mitchell Robinson.

Speaker 1 Like there's one time he just kind of fell out of bounds.

Speaker 1 It was like that.

Speaker 1 I thought the biggest thing the Knicks did today, other than pressure Halbert and just make it more difficult for him on defense was they felt like they were attacking Miles Turner, Rob. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, oh, you're going to have the bomb coming at you. Completely.

Speaker 3 And he's been beating up on their smaller defenders all series against mismatches. And they were swiping really well to kind of dislodge him.
They were fighting for position much more effectively.

Speaker 3 You mentioned like on the perimeter, there's times where there's times where Miles Turner looks like a great athlete and then there's times where it looks like one of his legs is like a dramatically different length than the other and he can't quite move in any kind of like fluid manner.

Speaker 3 They brought that side out of him to the point that like Mitchell Robinson at some points was pressuring Miles Turner up to half court.

Speaker 3 Like they just wouldn't let him move at all, much less get into that little handoff game.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's weird. The Miles Turner free agency tape is going to have to be a carefully edited 20-minute highlight tape, House, but I think the 20-minute highlight tape will be excellent.

Speaker 2 It can't have anything to do with Carl Anthony Towns. I mean, I think Kat

Speaker 2 has found the opposing center that he's most comfortable with in the entire NBA.

Speaker 2 And it's a version of Kat, you know, that man going to the rim with ferocity, relentless ferocity, and his, you know, making himself into a true New York Nick.

Speaker 2 You could see the crowd get super fired up every time he went to the to the rack and banged Turner out of the way and

Speaker 2 got his. And really, he and Brunson set the tone in the first quarter with that intensity that they brought.
And they controlled the flow of the game in the first quarter.

Speaker 2 And it was weird that the Pacers didn't really have any kind of retaliation. I mean, the closest we got was that 10 points with four minutes left in the third quarter.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and then they kind of got there again in the fourth quarter, but really

Speaker 2 they just never got there, Mahoney.

Speaker 3 Yeah, but to that point with Kat, it was really telling that this series for him has become not really a post-up series, not really a three-point shooting series.

Speaker 3 It is drive past Miles Turner, drive past Pascal Siakam. Pacers have nobody who can stay in front of him so long as Kat can stay out of foul trouble.

Speaker 3 And granted, you know, he had about three or four dumb fouls in this game. I think he easily could have been called for five or six, you know, a shove here or there that just didn't get whistled.

Speaker 3 And maybe this game is very, very different, but he definitely showed up. Brunson definitely showed up.

Speaker 3 Like those guys had to deliver and the depth also did like honestly just might be the best landry shamett playoff run we've ever seen from him has there been a landry shaman playoff run this is the thing he tends to be he tends to be the guy who comes into the playoffs and just immediately disappears like way too small gets boxed out of series too streaky a shooter to really make a difference this guy was like freezing tj mcconnell in the lane like killed dribble on the baseline, completely stalling out the pacers offense.

Speaker 3 The pressure that that Shaman and Delon and Delano Wright have brought to the series, I think has been like a really meaningful thing, which is crazy to say.

Speaker 1 McConnell is another one who sucked tonight.

Speaker 1 Really, everybody in the Pacers, you look through Mathurin has 23 points and they scored 94 as a team. That's pretty rough.

Speaker 1 The towns piece of it, I still feel like anytime a team isn't just completely attacking him on defense house, especially once he gets to four fouls, I would just go at him every play because I just feel like law of averages, he's just going to foul somebody.

Speaker 1 It was funny to hear Van Gundy

Speaker 1 on this three-man team we had tonight and we've had all through the playoffs

Speaker 1 for conferences.

Speaker 1 Just poor Kevin Harlan, his usage rate is all-time low. He's basically like Mikael Bridges in those games when he has six shots in 48 minutes.

Speaker 1 But it was funny to hear Van Gundy just openly saying like they shouldn't put Towns back in. He's just crazy enough to get a foul here.
Cause I thought the same thing. 0.6 seconds left.

Speaker 1 It's like just enough time for him to foul somebody on a pick.

Speaker 1 But for the most part, I think this series has been a win for him, House.

Speaker 2 An enormous win, an all-time win.

Speaker 2 I mean, in the same way that we were observing Julius Randall, you know, kind of a rebranding for himself by the excellent performance he had for the Timberwolves in the West.

Speaker 1 Until recently.

Speaker 2 I know, but look, for the most part, like, who saw that coming, right? And you had to do some research. You had to to go back into your,

Speaker 2 you know, basketball reference Bill Simmons database to compare him to some 18 and nine.

Speaker 1 Yeah, him and Adrian Baylor. Him and the Greenbacks.

Speaker 2 He had to do that.

Speaker 1 He made you do that.

Speaker 2 Julius Randle made you do that.

Speaker 1 But now he's going to make Charlotte give him a weird free agent opera, and that's going to be the only one he gets.

Speaker 2 Undoubtedly true. But Towns, also, this is like a version of Towns that I don't think anybody could say, we've seen this from Carl Anthony Towns in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 Like, this is the Eastern Conference finals, for Christ's sakes. It's very impressive to me.

Speaker 1 I like how hard he's playing. Yes.
That's the big thing for me is like, whatever, the stats are going to come and go. The shots are going to come and go.

Speaker 1 But he really seems like he fully gives a shit, which I think is, and I felt that way last year with him, too, in the Western Finals, too. So we've at least gotten over that hump with him, Mahoney.

Speaker 3 I think he's had great responses, right?

Speaker 3 It's like he's been embarrassed a couple of times in this series, especially defensively, like we were just talking about, played off the floor in fourth quarters, taken out of the rotation for critical stretches, like Mitchell Robinson kind of taking his spot a couple times.

Speaker 3 And then you get a huge response in crunch time. Then you get this response to the Indiana win.

Speaker 3 I don't know that you can ask a lot more of Towns than this. He's on a bad knee right now, and he's still driving all that much.
He's still holding, like, relatively holding up defensively.

Speaker 3 Again, give or take all the fouls. And credit to him, too, gets to kind of punch it through with that final possession before the Pacers took everybody out.

Speaker 3 It was like a Indiana couldn't pull down a defensive rebound. Josh Hart gets it, reroutes it to Towns, pump, fake, drive, finish over Matherin, shrug off everybody.
We're going home.

Speaker 3 Like, he deserves that kind of moment with the series he's had.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and the Knicks were like dying to let the Pacers back in the game in the third quarter, and the Pacers weren't.

Speaker 1 There was like a six-minute stretch where it just felt like the ball was flying around off everybody. It's funny, you mentioned that Towns playing with a bad knee.

Speaker 1 Not sure how bad the knee was because it felt like he was doing a lot of stuff out there. That's true.

Speaker 1 I was just, I had the hockey game on the smaller TV as I was watching the basketball, and I was just thinking how funny it is.

Speaker 1 You're on the playoff basketball game, they're like, Carl Towns cutting it out with a sore knee. And then you go to the hockey game, and guys, like they have just divots in the side of their heads,

Speaker 1 they're playing with just broken hands or broken orbital bones. It's just, it's just funny how different the sports are, house.

Speaker 2 And classic Tibbs, I mean, with with his, with, with, with the knee, he had the most minutes of any Nick on the floor, 36 minutes, and he uh got the most attempts up, 20 attempts. So, you know, 20

Speaker 1 to it.

Speaker 1 I thought it affected his shot a little bit, was the one thing I noticed it. But the barreling to the basket thing, I kind of feel like the knee piece didn't matter.
But maybe so. I don't know.

Speaker 1 I've changed my opinion on that trade a hundred times since they made it, but now I think Knicks won the trade. That's where I've landed today after watching Julius Randall a couple times against OKC.

Speaker 1 Big win for the Knicks.

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Speaker 2 Can I ask you a question?

Speaker 2 I've already taken a shout at Tibbs, but I think you've coached a great game. I honestly think that

Speaker 2 him getting four guys on the bench double-digit minutes.

Speaker 2 uh at this stage of of the playoffs i mean we are we we keep exclaiming out loud we're shocked by this Shamet revelation, but really Delon Wright and Shamut

Speaker 2 and McBride and I think the move of heart to the bench, you're still getting the 34 minutes out of him.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think we've got to tip our hat to tibbs here a little bit, Mahoney.

Speaker 3 Completely.

Speaker 3 Maybe he should have been here all along. Maybe they should have been playing this way.

Speaker 3 You know, they brought in Delon Wright and Andrew Shamut a little later in the season, but once they did, maybe those guys should have been in the rotation. That's fine.
We can talk about that.

Speaker 3 I'm sure to encourage positive growth.

Speaker 3 This is Tom Thibodeau, and we're meeting him where he is, which which is in a moment of desperation, started turning to these guys and really found something with it.

Speaker 3 Like, I don't even think it's just a minutes thing in terms of keeping the starters minutes down.

Speaker 3 I think having those guys in for meaningful runs where the Knicks are winning on defense, where they're creating all this energy, where they have the momentum, to me, that's taking a lot of pressure off of OG Ananobi, Mikhail Bridges, Josh Hart too.

Speaker 3 You really don't even dwell or notice. on the fact that like those guys can't hit threes right now, aren't really hitting a lot of shots because the Knicks are winning with this defensive energy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a good point. Their bench, I guess, Hart,

Speaker 1 two for two for eight from three.

Speaker 1 And the Knicks, the Pacers seem super happy to give them as many as you want. It's a weird thing for me.
I agree that Tibbs coached a good game tonight.

Speaker 1 I also think it was reprehensible that he didn't ever try to figure out how to use his bench during the season.

Speaker 1 I remember doing a podcast after that Nick selled the game in Boston in like February, where he's just playing those guys guy's huge minutes in this game that ultimately they're either going to be the three seed or the four seed.

Speaker 1 It's like, what are you doing? And I think the Knicks fans in my life,

Speaker 1 they're just apoplectic that it took until this series, losing game one, to then now experiment with all these different lineups and lineups that really haven't played together all season, but in a way, better late than never, I guess, because it's definitely helped them.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 We've seen Shamit for a few seasons here.

Speaker 1 I refuse to believe he's like a late bloomer as a playoff asset.

Speaker 1 There's been a bunch of teams that have given up on Shamut

Speaker 1 for record.

Speaker 3 But he's out there. And I get like these lineups are lineups that I would never choose to put on the floor in a must-win playoff game, right?

Speaker 3 Like lineups that should not work, that should not make sense.

Speaker 3 But I think it speaks to the fact that like New York's needs right now are less for explosive offense and more for where are they getting that defensive intensity?

Speaker 3 Who are the guys who are really going to pressure, who are really going to play up? And Wright and Shanman have both done that. McBride always does that.

Speaker 3 And playing those three guys together shouldn't be a thing, but it's a thing. And it's working in this series.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And make Indiana turn the ball over and make Halberton not as comfortable, which they managed to. Indiana had 20 turnovers tonight.
The Knicks were out-rebounding them by 10 for most of the game.

Speaker 1 And that evened out a little bit.

Speaker 1 I guess from the Knicks side, they were 28% from three and they won handily. Good sign for them.

Speaker 1 From the Pacer side, they had 20 turnovers and it still felt like they were going to make a run, even with like five minutes left with nobody, literally nobody playing well except Matherin.

Speaker 1 I was like, I still feel like they might get going here. It was a bad Halliburton game.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, a lot of smoke, including on this podcast and all the ringer podcasts about the big leap he was taking and how great he was playing.

Speaker 1 And it just felt like he was flustered from the get-go with all the pressure. My guess is that he'll be fine in game six.
Yeah, I mean, and that this is one of those.

Speaker 1 I looked at the tape, I can't believe how bad I was. I'm going to do this, this, this, and this.
And it will be a different Halbert would be my guess.

Speaker 2 He was making the big leap and then he took the big shit. And that happens sometimes.
I mean, we saw SGA, the MVP of the league, and what was it, game three, you know, lay a big fat egg. It happens.

Speaker 1 The good stuff.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but when you start talking about like top 20 guys, top 15 guys, top 10 guys, once we go higher up the list, what separates the top five, top seven guys, like you noticed that one SGA game when he wasn't very good in game three.

Speaker 1 But for the most part, every single playoff game, he's been between 30 and 38 a game and consistently scoring and consistently getting his shot. And you just always know you can count on him.

Speaker 1 And when you go through all the best guys in the league, that's usually in place, which is why even with somebody like Edwards, people are so disappointed that.

Speaker 1 Oh, what happened to him in second half of game four? And why did he seem so comfortable?

Speaker 1 Because he's being held to a certain standard i feel like haliburton had at least was knocking on the door of that level so for him to suck tonight is just like that's not great and now he's gonna take it tomorrow on the shows there's gonna be a lot of they need tyrese haliburton to step up he's gonna be the step up guy tomorrow who was that who was the step up guy heading in no who was the voice you just did is that was my generic espn voice it was all every single collage of the voices all everyone everyone i want them to have a segment called step up where they just, each of them just screams at the TV that somebody needs to step up.

Speaker 1 And then at the end of the segment, they all just look at each other and they tell each other to step up.

Speaker 1 And then they go to.

Speaker 3 I think it's a lot of our content. This could easily be a ringer, hottest take style podcast, 10-minute segment.

Speaker 1 Anyone in the world, you know, like any world leadership. Who needs to step up?

Speaker 3 They pope anybody.

Speaker 1 Like, Democrats need to step up.

Speaker 1 Right, Julia. Well,

Speaker 1 they definitely actually do need to step up.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 Parallel his main screen needs to step up because I can't find Mission Impossible.

Speaker 3 Whoever's doing the UI on those things definitely needs to step up. It's a disgrace.

Speaker 1 Well, no, I think Tyrese, but long story short, Tyrese Halliburton might need to step up. Yes.

Speaker 3 There is a version of a Tyrese Halliburton game where he shoots seven times and is still awesome. He's done that before plenty of times.
This was not that. I think it was distressing.

Speaker 3 how little he was even looking at the rim and the times where he even he would turn the corner on the Knicks defense. And it's just like,

Speaker 3 it looks like he's waiting for the breakdown to make the easy pass for the layup that frankly has like been there for the last three games or so.

Speaker 3 But if you're that guy, if you're a top 20 guy, you are the breakdown. Like that, that's your job to create that and to capitalize on it.

Speaker 3 And the fact that he wasn't really looking to score for, I would say, at least two, maybe two and a half quarters,

Speaker 3 it just wasn't enough for where the Pacers were.

Speaker 1 House, do you think it's because Michael Imperioli was there? You think he was psyched out?

Speaker 1 It's one thing to play in front of Shalamay, Spike Lee, some of the stars, but when Christopher's in the house, I don't know. It's a different level.

Speaker 2 Anything is possible. You don't want Christopher going to the trunk.
That's for sure.

Speaker 1 Paulie's dead, right? Paulie Walnuts is dead? I guess so.

Speaker 1 That would have been the Knicks move is to put courtside, just all the Sopranos characters, the living ones, just all in a row.

Speaker 1 But some of the key ones are dead, but I still think that would be a little intimidating. Maybe get all the mafia movies.

Speaker 3 Can we pour one out for Miles Teller, though, who was next to Timothy Chalamet, couldn't even get the broadcast shout out? Like he was just the normal guy sitting to the side of Timothy Chalamet.

Speaker 3 That's Miles Teller.

Speaker 1 Tough beat. He's in Top Gun Maverick, for God's sakes.
He's in Whiplash. He's been in some big movies.
He was just in a movie that led Apple TV. He should have at least gotten a Chiron.

Speaker 3 That's what I'm saying. He's at Chiron level at bare minimum.

Speaker 1 I agree with that. My son was admiring Chalamet's fit.
He likes the Chrome Hart Nick's pants. He thought it was a great job.

Speaker 1 He thinks Chalamet has done a great job with

Speaker 1 with the with the fits during the games.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to bring him in later for a

Speaker 1 fit thing.

Speaker 1 Brunson,

Speaker 1 six for nine in the first quarter, laid the SmackDown. I had in the Taylor Fade, my weekly prop, I did over 30 and a half because I thought Brunson was going to have a big game.

Speaker 1 I think he finished with like 34. But one of the reasons I thought that was because I didn't think Towns was going to be good in this game.
So whatever they got from Towns, I wasn't expecting.

Speaker 1 I'm not positive the Pacers were expecting either. But

Speaker 1 this Brunson thing, his eyes just light up when Nemhards. You mentioned it before, Rob.

Speaker 1 It's like the Nemhard Pacers and then the non-Nemhart. When he sees Howalburton, it's he looks like House passing in Arby's.
Hey, hey. No, that's a compliment, House.
I know.

Speaker 2 That was an excited.

Speaker 1 It was a stomach growl. It was.
I met somebody else who loved Arby's, and I always bring you up when somebody else likes Arby's.

Speaker 1 Because you're my number one person.

Speaker 1 other? We should.

Speaker 1 I just feel like it's almost like house is a part owner in Arby's, even though he owns nothing.

Speaker 2 I've invested enough.

Speaker 1 Believe me.

Speaker 1 Believe me. Thank God for Arby's.
Anyway, Jalen Brunson, Rob, go.

Speaker 3 I don't know how to come back from Arby's. No, look, there really is only one pacer who can guard him in this series.
He's currently kind of injured, clearly, at least being held back to some degree.

Speaker 3 I thought it was a sign of, you know, it was

Speaker 3 representative of Indy's desperation that Ben Matherin was not only like the only guy who could score, but the only guy they would even trust to guard Jalen Brunson during critical stretches of the second half.

Speaker 3 Like they, they gave him that job too, because Ben, like Shepard can't do it. Nemhard cannot do it.
Those guys have no impact, honestly, on Jalen Brunson.

Speaker 3 And they're good defenders who fight through screens and like can be very effective against any other kind of scorer. But for some reason, Jalen Brunson can just kind of bump them off.

Speaker 3 He can shoot right over the top of Nemhard. They don't bother him at all.

Speaker 3 And so if we are watching which injuries are real and which ones are exaggerated, Carl Anthony Towns, you know, clearly good enough to drive and still be a dominant player in this game.

Speaker 3 Aaron Neesmith has to be a fully operational member of the Pacers rotation if they're going to slow down Jalen Brunson at all.

Speaker 1 Well, the recipe for the Knicks to come back from 3-1 house, if you're doing the 2004 Red Sox, don't let us get one. Don't let us get two, whatever Kevin Millar said.

Speaker 1 It's easier to do it when you have five and seven at home. You win five, you have to go on the road and take six.

Speaker 1 But when the Celtics tried to do this last round, no Jason Tatum, zombie poor Zingas, Sam Hauser and a sprained ankle, and the Knicks played the best game they've had and were completely healthy.

Speaker 1 This Pacers situation, Neesmith not healthy, Turner and Nemhard coming off terrible games, Pacers bench not doing that well, Halburn coming off a bad game, and weirdly some pressure for a team up 3-2.

Speaker 1 What do you think the line is for the series now, House? Don't look.

Speaker 2 Oh, this is a great question. Yeah.
The Pacers are definitely still favored. Let me think about this.

Speaker 2 Plus

Speaker 2 for the Knicks,

Speaker 2 the Pacers are favored minus

Speaker 2 220.

Speaker 1 Rob, I can't remember if you know how to do odds. I'll let you have a guess if you want.

Speaker 3 I'm going to say they're more than that. I think it's probably more of like a minus five or 600.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 3 Look at the big balls on bread.

Speaker 1 They're minus two. Minus 370 for the picks.
There we go. Split the difference.

Speaker 2 Yeah, right in between the two of us.

Speaker 1 Well, the Knicks were minus five today, which jumped out at me immediately because I thought it was going to be like a minus two. So Vegas, obviously, and Fandel and everybody else probably.

Speaker 1 liked some of the metrics that were going.

Speaker 1 I do think they saved Neesmith a little bit.

Speaker 1 This is one of those you feel it out. Oh, I didn't realize Miles Turner was going to be hot in this game.
Ooh, I didn't realize Walker was going to make three threes.

Speaker 1 But none of those things were happening. Carlisle was like, all right, I'll save my guy for Saturday night.
Here's the, here's the, oh, I'll save this. We're going to take a break for the podcast.

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Speaker 1 A box of fine wines, yes. Uber Eats can definitely get you that.
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Speaker 1 See app for details. Here's the best thing about tonight.
We get a game on Saturday night now.

Speaker 2 I'm so happy. It's so funny.

Speaker 1 It looked like we weren't going to have basketball for a week. Yeah.
What are we going to do? I'm so happy.

Speaker 2 I'm going going to order Arby's.

Speaker 1 How about that?

Speaker 2 I will have the meets. Me and Jalen Brunson will have the meets.

Speaker 2 The Jalen Brunson thing that I wanted to observe is that the, you know, it's a very stupid observation that I made at the top of the show, but they

Speaker 2 created their force of will. They dictated their pace by the high percentage shots that Jalen Brunson gets and takes.
And the same thing is true of towns.

Speaker 2 I want for the record to say out loud, I tailed the Brunson wager, the Brunson proposed.

Speaker 2 Of course, I mean,

Speaker 2 my token, I'm going to cash that in.

Speaker 2 But it was based on the idea that Towns might be compromised. He wasn't compromised, but it was based on that.
And he also had as a narrative, Knicks aren't going to go out like this.

Speaker 2 This Knicks team with this Knicks fandom, what they've done in these playoffs, they're not going out with a whimper. They're going to come home home and show pride.

Speaker 2 JJ, John Dostromsky made a great case for why the Knicks would show up and show out tonight. And they did that.
And I do think, I mean, let me get your guys' take on this.

Speaker 2 I've said this a couple of times and I think it's, you know, reasonable argument. I think the Knicks have the best five in the East.

Speaker 2 And,

Speaker 2 you know, that doesn't necessarily mean they're the best team in the East, but I think they have the best five in the East.

Speaker 1 We heard about this on the phone today because the plus plus-minus stats for the five-man units do not back this up. And yet, I don't think you're wrong.

Speaker 3 Well, I think this is why I think you're wrong. Which five are you talking about?

Speaker 1 Because I think

Speaker 3 you know, like, is it the Mitchell Robinson five or the Josh Hart five?

Speaker 2 It's definitely the Hart five. Um, but

Speaker 1 the stats say it's the Mitchell Robinson five. That's the better one.

Speaker 2 I get it. I'm not, I

Speaker 2 understand the point, but I just, you know, when they, they're, they, they have six. They have six guys.
They have five and a half guys because what you get out of Mitchell Robinson is half a game.

Speaker 2 You get 20 minutes or

Speaker 2 you get two-thirds

Speaker 2 minutes-wise out of him.

Speaker 2 But I would stack this Knicks five up against every other five in the East. And I think that's an element of why we're sitting here at this point with a game on Saturday night.

Speaker 1 Can I give you another element? Let's hear it. This is going to make Rob feel awkward, but this is really House's love language.

Speaker 3 I'm terrified of whatever you're about to say. I honestly have no idea.

Speaker 2 I hope it involves Frank from White Lotus.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, it's not. Frank is not involved.

Speaker 1 You know, if Indiana wins one more game, we're going to have an Indiana versus Oklahoma City finals.

Speaker 1 But if the Knicks win the series, we'll have the Knicks in the finals. And if you've noticed from ratings and interest,

Speaker 1 it's a little more interesting nationally when there's a New York team in the finals. I'd like to bring you back to the year 2002.

Speaker 1 Game six,

Speaker 1 Portland Lakers. I'm sorry, game six, Sacramento Lakers in Sacramento.
Yes. If Sacramento wins,

Speaker 1 we're going to have a Sacramento, New Jersey finals.

Speaker 1 And David Stern was like,

Speaker 1 not on my watch. This is not happening.
We are not letting this happen. And we did not get a Sacramento, New Jersey finals.
And I'm just, I just, I, I just, I'm being, I just be careful.

Speaker 1 Let's be careful out there for game six if you're wagering. Just be careful.
Put two fouls on Newsmith pretty quickly. I don't know.

Speaker 1 Conspiracy Bill, I'm not going to dress up like Conspiracy Phil, but it just, how's we the 2002 game six, we've talked a lot about over the years. I'm just saying.

Speaker 1 It's in the back of my head. It's in the deep recesses of the back of my head.

Speaker 2 Well, guess when I remembered it when Dallas won the effing lottery two weeks ago on my birthday.

Speaker 2 I remembered that 2002 game six. Weird things happen.
Miracles happen.

Speaker 1 Weird things. Miracles.

Speaker 2 Miracles. NBA miracles.

Speaker 1 Miracles. Like Aaron Newsmith having three fouls six minutes in the first quarter.
Like some miracles can happen. You just never know.

Speaker 1 So we'll have this Indiana game Saturday night.

Speaker 1 Which will be I'm trying to think if there's been a bigger Indiana game since the 2000 finals. I'm going to say no.

Speaker 1 Right?

Speaker 3 I think the only thing that would even come close is when they had a chance to upset the LeBron Cavs. You know, like they were in some of those series and had some pressure-packed games.
Right.

Speaker 1 They never had a chance to, if we win this game at home, we go to the finals.

Speaker 1 I don't think they've been in that situation because I was thinking during the Pistons when the 0-3 or 0-4 range, they played the Pistons a couple times.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I think, what was the game where Tayshawn Prince blocked Reggie Miller from behind?

Speaker 1 The Chase Down. That was in Indiana, the Chasedown thing.

Speaker 1 But this is the biggest Indiana Pacers game I think since the 2000 finals game four

Speaker 1 ironically the Kobe becoming a special player game in OT after Shaq fouls out

Speaker 1 so we'll see I I guess my question if you're Rob if you're Rick Carlisle how many

Speaker 1 pacers do you trust right now

Speaker 1 Because we always see the number starts dropping as the playoff series goes along. How many of these guys do you actually trust?

Speaker 3 I thought in this game you could see his patience being tried with Obi-Toppin, especially in the first half.

Speaker 3 When he tried to dribble through the two guys, you know, that's not going to get you on Rick Carlisle's best side, I would say.

Speaker 3 I thought TJ McConnell had some bad, like, momentum-halting plays that, but you kind of have to play him.

Speaker 3 Like, Tyrus Halliburton needs a rest at some point, and Nemhard hasn't been good enough to be your backup point guard on any kind of full-time basis.

Speaker 3 Like, is Thomas Bryant going to have to continue to play? How bad is that Tony Bradley hip? I cannot believe I'm talking about Tony Bradley and the interconnection.

Speaker 1 I would have thought a Tony Bradley hip injury would be a game six subplot.

Speaker 3 But you know what? The Thomas Bryan minutes are that bad that it becomes a subplot. And so I, yeah, I think the guys who are definitely going to be in there, like Shepard is going to be in there.

Speaker 3 He's, he's earned the right to have some minutes. He plays conservatively enough.
I think he's going to be in the mix.

Speaker 3 Matherin, clearly, over the last two games, has been one of the Pacers' best players.

Speaker 3 I'm a little worried about Nemhard at this point, though, because in order to not play those bench guys, you have to stretch the starters more.

Speaker 3 And Neese Smith, we'll see what state he's in physically. Obviously, Siakam and Halliburton and I think Turner on a good night, which these have mostly been good nights for him.

Speaker 3 You want to play those guys a lot.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 3 Andrew Nemhort didn't just struggle tonight. He struggled now for like a week.

Speaker 1 It's been

Speaker 1 three awful games in a row.

Speaker 3 Three awful games in a row, shooting like 20-ish, 23, 24% over those three games.

Speaker 1 And doing stuff like drives to the layup to get a layup, but then kicking it out when.

Speaker 1 Like there was one place specifically where Jalen Brunson was the only guy who could come over and try to stop him. And Brunson was coming and he kicked it back out to the corner.

Speaker 1 It's like, just lay it up. Just get two points.
I think he's got some easiest play in basketball. That's what I was thinking.
I felt a little yipsy.

Speaker 3 Very concerning from that perspective.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm going to make you

Speaker 1 a once-in-a-lifetime offer right now, both of you.

Speaker 1 As you know, Zach Lowe and I cleaned up on Need Smith Island. It's been

Speaker 1 a revelation for us.

Speaker 1 Just unbelievable how it worked out. It's been sorry to everybody.
We had to turn away in the condo projects.

Speaker 1 jarris walker island oh i did buy some property uh not not tonight uh during the season every time he's played i liked him yeah um and he's it's gotten to the point where i don't really understand why he's not playing more

Speaker 1 because i feel like he's at i'm sure listen i haven't watched nearly enough pacers games as the actual pacers fans i'm sure like oh my god this fucking guy thinks walker should play more I don't know if I'm right or wrong, but I like when he's out there and I think he does good stuff.

Speaker 1 And I wonder if we see him more in game six instead of the Thomas Bryant minutes. Do you just go a little smaller? It's not like, what's Robinson?

Speaker 1 He's going to hurt you on the offensive boards, but it's not like he's going to be posting up whoever it is. They don't post them up.
And I wonder if they just try to go small because Walker's a dog.

Speaker 1 Like he'll, he'll, he'll, uh, he'll fight anybody and fight for position. And I don't know.
He seemed really comfortable shooting a couple of those threes tonight. I thought he was playing hard.

Speaker 1 Am I crazy, Rob?

Speaker 3 You're not. Well, here's the thing.
If you are crazy, we're crazy together because I have been on the could Jerusalem be a playoff X factor for the Pacers.

Speaker 1 It sounds like you've just bought a plot of land.

Speaker 3 I look, the land has been bought. My financial manager has said, like, I am ruining his professional reputation if I continue to buy land on Jarrett Walker Island.

Speaker 1 So wow, I didn't realize. I saw some lights on down in the island.
I didn't know who else that was. I'm a believer.

Speaker 3 You know, these lights are pretty bright, though.

Speaker 3 These now crucial must-win games to get get you to the NBA finals. I thought he played pretty well in this one.

Speaker 3 And again, like he's, he's going to make some spotty decisions here and there if he tries to do too much with the ball.

Speaker 3 But I thought in this game, he was kind of in that Nuggets championship season Christian Brown zone of like, you go to that spot and you stand there.

Speaker 3 And if you dribble the ball, we will take you out of the game. And you're going to try hard on defense and you're going to fly around.

Speaker 3 And he was like, he brought some of the athleticism that I thought, you know, if you're taking Obi Toppin off the floor because you don't like some of the choices he's making, you bring in Jairus Walker and you're getting some of it back.

Speaker 3 Maybe not Obi Toppin-level athleticism, but some real pop and some length.

Speaker 1 House you call on your broker or are you too overextended with the three Wizards rookies when you bought all the stock?

Speaker 1 I mean, Bob Carrington Island.

Speaker 2 I have Bob Carrington.

Speaker 2 I have A.J. Green.
I mean, you know, Johnson, A.J. Johnson.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 A.J. Johnson.
You got to remember what his name is if you're going to have stock on the island. What about Johnny Bryant?

Speaker 3 Are you leveraging him?

Speaker 1 No. No.

Speaker 1 Nothing. And he never bought any any uh property on johnny davis island no no i i uh no

Speaker 1 he called in fake fire alarms for johnny davis island trying to get the island shut down i i yeah i i

Speaker 2 i can't say out loud what i what i really prayed for but please don't yeah

Speaker 1 even though it's late night um house are you with us on walker or no i like it look uh

Speaker 2 I would be interested in getting some of the,

Speaker 2 what's it called, Second Spectrum.

Speaker 2 I want to see some of the data about about him on towns i'd like to see the idea of him on towns because towns is too comfortable why are you why are the basket yeah like that's what i'm saying like a smaller guy should just get in and try to make towns basically bowl him over yeah yeah just i mean he's got the athleticism i feel the same way about toppin' i why isn't toppin trying to to defend towns now maybe that's true maybe yeah there are some matchups there that i'm i'm not like catching as they're occurring in real time and you certainly don't want uh obi Obi Toppin feeling like he can take 10 effing

Speaker 2 field goal attempts in 18 minutes. That's not permissible.
You don't get 10, Obi. You don't get 10.
You don't get more than

Speaker 2 Tyree Talliburton. Okay.

Speaker 1 Please. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Can I speak for the second spectrum stats real quick

Speaker 3 about Jerusalem Towns? He's not ready for all that.

Speaker 1 That's too much. Okay.
So who's left?

Speaker 1 That's kind of it. Like, that's the...

Speaker 3 I mean, well, oh, yeah, I think Siakam's going to continue. He's gotten some chances.
He honestly has not done any better than Turner has.

Speaker 1 I think this is the problem with the Pacers in game six is there's some a couple foul trouble guys that they don't really have plan Bs for Siakam's one of them Neese Smith, I think is another one and then Halbert, obviously, but

Speaker 3 I don't know. I mean, I think we know the way that the Pacers guard downs in this series, and it's you make him a defensive liability or you foul him off the floor.

Speaker 3 Like, those are really the two options for them. And they've been pretty effective both throughout most of this series.

Speaker 3 It's just when he does manage to stay on the floor, he can get by Turner so easily that it creates problems everywhere.

Speaker 1 Can we go big picture on the Knicks for a second? Because I feel like I've watched

Speaker 1 six months of Knicks playoff games at this point pretty intently. Don't ask why, but I really enjoyed that Piston series.

Speaker 2 What do you mean, don't ask why? It's good basketball. It's fun.
It's interesting.

Speaker 1 Are the Knicks, we always talk about good hangs like we even called the amy polar podcast good hang are the knicks a good hang it's just for casual basketball fans who don't care you know obviously other than the betting pieces but is it fun to watch this next team because i can't i haven't really totally decided yet i i find myself more aggravated by them than enjoying them with towns like all the facial expressions and him calling brunson um the cuts to tibbs he has the same look on his face all the time it just looks like he's trying to pass a kidney stone.

Speaker 1 Brunson's never smiling.

Speaker 1 The bridges, the fact that nobody seems to realize that every time he goes to a spot and jumps backwards and everybody forgets that that's his jump shot every time. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Mitchell Robinson just bowling guys over from behind, getting offensive rebounds. I just find myself frustrated watching them and I have no skin in the game.

Speaker 1 I think I've seen too many Knicks games, Ron.

Speaker 1 I think they're pretty fun.

Speaker 3 Honestly, I think this is a cat litness test to me because you're right. Some of the personalities on the court are not the most emotive.

Speaker 3 Like, OG Ananobi, you're not going to get a lot out of during the game.

Speaker 1 No, blank sleep.

Speaker 3 But I enjoy the cat experience, the ups and the downs, the dramatic turns. Like, I'm, I am here to see, like, every night, can this guy stay on the floor? Can this guy get out of his own way?

Speaker 3 Can he be the all-in-bay caliber player he proved to be this season that we all know he's capable of being? Can he be that when you need it?

Speaker 3 And those have been some of the most satisfying moments of this Knicks run or the moments.

Speaker 1 I think your cat steps up. I think he's right, Hess.

Speaker 2 I agree. How about this? I fucking love these Knicks.

Speaker 1 I'm into them. Wow, okay.
I'm glad we're talking about this. Great time.
I think, because I think I'm bitter about the Celtics thing, and I think that's tainted.

Speaker 1 I guess I'll just put all cards on the table. I might still be bad.
Go ahead, House.

Speaker 2 Especially when they're at MSG. I think that they have engendered this love and

Speaker 2 you know, being reminded of what

Speaker 2 a great venue, like historic, precedential, precedent important basketball has happened at MSG.

Speaker 1 And presidential.

Speaker 2 Presidential, precedential, all of them, all the P's.

Speaker 1 Probably a president there.

Speaker 2 All the P's happen at MSG.

Speaker 2 But it's been a really fun ride watching this team who I think, you know, the

Speaker 2 off-season stuff was a goddamn miracle. How did they get Mikael Bridges and Carl Anthony Towns? How did they?

Speaker 1 They traded every asset they had.

Speaker 1 That's how they got them.

Speaker 2 It was effing worth it. They're in the Eastern Conference finals in year one.
And I think it's like a three-year run. And they can.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 2 the combination of where they are.

Speaker 1 See, I feel like everything's on the table. You could tell me this is Tibbs' last game at Coach on Saturday.
You could tell me they're going to have Giannis next year.

Speaker 1 I'm ready for anything with that.

Speaker 3 This is the East, though. You know, like, there's that thing where you write your name on the SAT and you get 200 points.

Speaker 1 You play in the Eastern Conference like that's 14 41 wins like i think you're gonna be all right right there yeah that's a good point um i will say one thing the efficiency all season was so good house i agree with you on msg and it's fun to have the celebrities there i will say this i have noticed this over and over again the people courtside around the area a lot of people on the phones

Speaker 1 And I think the Knicks fans have to really police out.

Speaker 1 I'm not saying it's not like the Chalamet guys, but there'll be somebody shooting free throws and you'll see behind and it'll be in the front row and it'll be six people just texting.

Speaker 1 And it's like, you're at game five of the fucking Eastern Conference finals, and you guys have a reputation as being some of the best basketball fans in the earth, and you're sitting on the wood.

Speaker 1 Get off your fucking phone. Well, plus, get off your phone.

Speaker 3 It could be Mitchell Robinson shooting, in which case it's got a hit by a field.

Speaker 1 You gotta be careful. I get hit by a field goal.
All right, so who wins game six? It's in 48 hours:

Speaker 3 Pacers,

Speaker 2 Pacers.

Speaker 1 I don't think I'd bet it.

Speaker 1 Either one. I think he's coming back.

Speaker 2 Should we wait to see who the refs are?

Speaker 1 It's

Speaker 1 something I'm definitely going to do on Saturday.

Speaker 2 Did we get a Tony Brothers?

Speaker 1 Tony Brothers? What's wrong with Tony?

Speaker 1 Calls a solid game.

Speaker 1 No, I need to think about it some more. The extender?

Speaker 1 I think it'd be really tough to beat this Pacers team three days, three games in a row with how

Speaker 1 one of those games they're going to have a really good offensive game. One of those games, Carlisle's going to figure out something.
But I think I'd probably lean Pacers because

Speaker 1 I just think their style, especially at home,

Speaker 3 I believe in it.

Speaker 1 But it does, the Neesmith 15 minutes today does scare me a little bit.

Speaker 3 It should. I think that combined with Nemhard being this bad.
Like, that's, that is a little bit spooky.

Speaker 1 But Turner will be better at home.

Speaker 3 Turner will be better. How much do you think?

Speaker 1 TJ McConnell will be better at home. Today was dying for the random TJ McConnell.
I'm just going to take over a quarter for six minutes, but he did the opposite.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 he has that in him, which they need.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to think from a Knicks standpoint, probably hitting a bunch of threes.

Speaker 1 Brunson has to be around 30. They need something major from towns, and they need the bench guys to be decent would be the recipe.
This episode is brought to you by Black Friday Game Day on Prime.

Speaker 1 It's Bill Simmons, Black Friday Game Day coming to Prime, and it will be an epic day of live sports.

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Speaker 1 That's followed by the final night at Emirates NBA Cup group play

Speaker 1 and a doubleheader starting with the Bucs and Knicks at 7 p.m. Giannis in New York again and the Mavericks and Lakers at 10 p.m.
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Speaker 1 Black Friday game day tees off with the Capital One Skins game at 9 a.m. Eastern before the Big Bears Eagles football game at 3 p.m.

Speaker 1 And it all culminates with a double dose of Emirates NBA Cup action featuring Bucks Knicks at 7 p.m. and Mavs Lakers at 10 p.m.
only on Prime. This episode is brought to you by Velveeta.

Speaker 1 Game Day is all about the tailgate spread. Listen, if you're going to have friends over, you absolutely 100% have to have a lot of things for them to eat.
Everyone gets hungry.

Speaker 1 They can say they're not going to eat, but guess what?

Speaker 1 If you lay out the right kind of spread and you have some good, cheesy, creamy, melty dip with some good crackers, some chips, they're probably going to eat it.

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Do yourself a favor.

Speaker 1 Stock up on Velveeta before kickoff.

Speaker 1 You guys both talked about OKC on your on podcast this week, but

Speaker 1 why do you think people are so begrudgingly

Speaker 1 careful about calling them a great team?

Speaker 1 Because they're young, I think, mostly. I think people are.
But they just don't fit the profile?

Speaker 3 Yeah. Well, I mean, they're profile-wise, they're like

Speaker 3 closer to the Iverson Sixers or something.

Speaker 3 But if you supercharge their defense and also supercharge Alan Iverson, and that's not a formula that we're used to like wrapping our heads around.

Speaker 3 You know, a defense first team that is this defense forward in the modern NBA is a bit of an anomaly on this stage.

Speaker 1 I told House this on the phone today. They've played nine playoff games at home.
They won eight of them by 51, 19, 43, 7, 32, 36, 15, and 30.

Speaker 1 And they lost one game to Denver in game one. They're up nine with three minutes left and lost the game by two.

Speaker 1 This is about as dominant of a home team as we've seen through three rounds. And I think that crowd, I think their young guys are more comfortable at home to begin with.

Speaker 1 It's usually when they go up eight to 10 and their defense takes it over. I just think like,

Speaker 1 I would say in the house, I really regret not just banging the blowout odds for every game because we should have seen it.

Speaker 1 Cause especially the history of the playoffs, young teams like this built around a talented guy, they usually kind of kick everybody's ass like this. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I wonder, like even watching the game tonight,

Speaker 1 I'm just hard pressed to think either of those teams have much of a chance, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, look at the way the Pacers responded to Knicks level defensive pressure and think about the decisions that sometimes Kat will make on the move, or OG or Mikhail Bridges will make on the move as they try to navigate through the lane and they're trying to make those connecting passes you have to make.

Speaker 3 I don't see it. I think the Thunder should and will be a heavy favorite against either of these teams.
They deserve that.

Speaker 1 They are a great team.

Speaker 3 They're an all-time team, kind of like hiding in plain sight.

Speaker 2 All that is 100% true. And I will be banging hard every one of their home games and playing alt spreads and everything.

Speaker 2 But on the perception

Speaker 2 question,

Speaker 2 I think, you know, it's right to think about this whole season in context. The league kind of has a role in this.
Like the league isn't out there promoting SGA. It wasn't back in October.

Speaker 1 We were looking at this all year. We've all done it on our, I remember doing a whole monologue about this, about, you know, LeBron and Curry, we love those guys, but

Speaker 1 it's time to start pushing the new dudes. And they're just over and over again hinging on LeBron and Curry in these Saturday night ABC games.

Speaker 1 It's not like they didn't know OKC was going to be good house. Their over-under was like 61 wins.

Speaker 2 The thing that I shared with you when we were talking earlier, I'm interested in Rob's opinion.

Speaker 2 SGA didn't help himself in the Olympics. Like, remember,

Speaker 2 the Olympics did sort of, you know, give everybody a big burst of basketball in August, and it was high-level basketball.

Speaker 2 The competition was incredible, and it took an amazing, like end-of-legacy kind of game by Steph, another career-defining, legacy-defining game by Steph to put them to night night.

Speaker 2 And SGA in Canada was forecasted to make a nice little run, and they made a run again right to the toilet because they stunk. They stunk bad.
They were not good. Jamal Murray was horrendous.

Speaker 2 SGA and Lou Dort, I mean, they were loaded.

Speaker 1 That Canadian team was good and they

Speaker 1 were better. I think they've been waiting.
I think they waited.

Speaker 3 Yeah, my entire adult life for Canada basketball to be a real minted thing. And it's just, it never pans out.
No matter who's on the roster, they're always quite talented.

Speaker 3 It's an incredible pipeline of basketball ability and skill and development. And for whatever reason, they just do not play well in international play.

Speaker 1 That's why they're not good enough to be our 51st state, right? Wow. This is why we keep projecting their resume.
Step up, Canada. Step up.
So SGA

Speaker 1 in 16 playoff games this year, 29.8 points a game. And I think that even would have been better, but a lot of these games have been blowouts.

Speaker 1 He's playing almost three minutes a game, more than three minutes a game less than he did last year in the playoffs. He's now at his last 26 playoff games.
He's at 30 a game.

Speaker 1 Which, look, the stats are a little skewed. It's a little like late 90s baseball steroids just because the pace is different.
Points are up.

Speaker 1 But if you're a guard scoring 30 a game for a long sample size, I think that might even go up in the finals.

Speaker 1 And in some of these games, just getting any shots he wants in the biggest moments, it's really, really impressive.

Speaker 1 What he did those first three rounds was as impressive as,

Speaker 1 I don't know, anything I've seen from a two guard

Speaker 1 in

Speaker 1 the last 25 years. It's up there with any of Kobe's playoff runs.

Speaker 1 I don't want to put it with the Wade 06 because what Wade did in the finals, especially, like that was just him by himself, just willing them. But it's way up there.

Speaker 1 And I don't think he's a finished product yet. Do you, Rob? It feels like we still were like 90% there.

Speaker 3 He's a different player than he was six weeks ago. Like his development through these playoffs has been a huge story.

Speaker 3 And part of the reason they're here, his ability to adapt to the variety of defenses that have been thrown at him.

Speaker 3 Like you would think if you're someone like Shay, you've seen everything, but you kind of haven't until you get into these seven-game dogfights over and over against dramatically different teams.

Speaker 3 I think he's aced kind of all those tests. Like, he's had moments where this game in crunch time, maybe I don't love the shot selection.
This game, maybe the percentages aren't there.

Speaker 3 But on balance, you just see the line going up and up and up. And from a Thunder perspective, what more could you ask for than that?

Speaker 1 There's been some revisions history house, and I even might have been guilty on it on this pod a couple of times recently. No, just, I think we all liked the trade when it happened.

Speaker 1 And now it seems like the worst trade of all time, the Paul George,

Speaker 1 and the SJ and the picks. But when it happened, we were all like, that's amazing.
Nobody, the Clippers were dead in the water.

Speaker 1 This was the way that they could get Kawhi Leonard, who had just won the finals MVP for Toronto. And basically, they're trading all this stuff for Paul George and Kawhi Leonard.

Speaker 1 And they didn't want the Lakers to get him. And Ballmer was an owner for five years, and he had to do this to keep the Lakers from getting Kawhi Leonard.

Speaker 1 And also, like, this made them the favorites to win the title in 2020.

Speaker 1 So they gave up a lot, but I, to me, that it's not as bad as the Durant trade, which I think when they did when the Suns did that one, we were like, man, that's a lot.

Speaker 1 I get why they did it, but holy shit. And you have no outs now after this trade.
With the Clippers, it was like they had one way.

Speaker 1 Now, you could argue, should they have played poker with Kawhi and just been like, look.

Speaker 1 We're about just sign with us. We have all these assets.

Speaker 1 We're going to be able to keep building around this and just kind of talked them into it because it didn't seem like I want to play with the Lakers. But I don't know.

Speaker 1 I that trade, it's easy to say five years after the fact it's a complete catastrophe because it is.

Speaker 1 But I think the reasoning behind it was solid. What do you think, House?

Speaker 2 I thought it was a worthwhile gamble at the time under the circumstances and in the context. And you just kind of laid it out.
But

Speaker 2 the real animus there, driving animus to driving force, was Ballmer trying to do something with that franchise. Like

Speaker 1 to invigorate, not even reinvigorate them, invigorate them.

Speaker 2 Invigorate. Exactly right.
And that's fair. Like, he's the owner.
He's the guy with the money. And they're trying to do a thing.
So they try, they had to pay a price for it.

Speaker 2 It just turned out that the price exceeded what they

Speaker 2 imagined. And that happened.

Speaker 1 Oh, and SJ was turned out to be a, oh, I think a way better player than anyone expected, even though we all liked him. Sure.
Yes.

Speaker 1 And they also nailed the picks, Rob, which, like, you look at all the picks New Orleans got or New New Orleans got from the Lakers, and it's sometimes you nail the picks, sometimes you don't.

Speaker 1 Like they took Jalen Williams at the 12th pick. Yep.
Right. And he's the second best player in the team.

Speaker 1 They tanked for three, four months to get the Chet Holmgren thing, but they also had to get the ping pong balls in the top three, which as House can attest.

Speaker 1 Doesn't always work even after you spend the whole year trying to lose. Well, it's true.

Speaker 1 So there was some luck with them.

Speaker 1 They made made an awesome trade and the jalen williams pick was great and they were lucky to get in the lottery they smartly took chad everything they did was super smart but that trade you know i i don't think you can look at it be like oh my god that's the worst trade ever i would i would go the other way i would say that's like one of the best trades ever turning paul george into all the stuff they got all they gave up was paul george yeah all the stuff they got back it it shouldn't be discussed as worst it should be discussed as best an incredibly worthwhile gamble for the Thunder, given their circumstances.

Speaker 1 To recoup all that for Paul Jordan. And they knew they have to get rid of Russ, too.
Yeah.

Speaker 3 And for the Clippers, I still completely get it. You put yourself back in those circumstances.
It still makes sense to me. Like the premise still makes sense.

Speaker 1 Okay, trade.

Speaker 3 I think, honestly, like that trade has been amazing. And we've spent, I would say, the last maybe 18 months or so debating on and off.
Do the Thunder need to make some kind of move?

Speaker 3 Like, do, should they cash in some of these picks that they've stockpiled for another player? Is Jalen Williams going to be a good enough second star?

Speaker 3 They made the big trade to get Shay, and they did not make the big mistake of trading away and disrupting what, as we're saying, is clearly a great team, is clearly a championship-worthy team.

Speaker 3 Like, they invested in that project, and they're fucking there. Like, they are right there on the precipice of doing everything they set out to do.

Speaker 2 It's amazing. It's an amazing what-if, because if they lost to Denver,

Speaker 2 like, I do think they'd be cashing in some chips. Maybe.

Speaker 1 I mean, yeah, the sliding doors for them is what if Aaron Gordon doesn't hurt his groin. I still think they probably win by 20,

Speaker 1 but I think that Denver team with healthy Aaron Gordon was Michael Myers, and they just were not. You were,

Speaker 1 you know, I think once Denver fell behind 15 in that game, they kind of knew. And that's been,

Speaker 1 I think you and I were talking about this today, House. The thing that's special about this OKC team beyond the obvious stuff is they really do break teams during a series.
And they

Speaker 1 in all three series, the team they're playing against hit a point. And you could really feel it in that Minnesota series.
It was 26 to 9. And it's like, this game's over.

Speaker 1 You're not coming back against OKC. Their defense is too good.
This is a wrap. You know where it's going.
And you could kind of feel the energy from Minnesota go sideways.

Speaker 1 And, you know, they had limitations in the Conley thing was, I think, as the series went on, even more disastrous than we could have predicted.

Speaker 1 But the type of team that should be able to hang with them, unless you have somebody like Jokic, is a team that plays like Indiana.

Speaker 1 I just don't know if they have the horses, but the up and down pace, like let's get into track meet that 128 to 126 Minnesota game four.

Speaker 1 That to me is the model of how the Pacers can hang with them. But there's a reason the OKC is minus 750 on Fandu to win the title right now.
Minus 750, House. That's that's like the biggest since

Speaker 1 you're talking like Warriors,

Speaker 1 I don't know, 2018.

Speaker 2 I am nothing if not a creature of recency bias, you know, right in the right in the kisser.

Speaker 2 But the Pacers have no chance.

Speaker 2 That's a 4-1 series because the thing that

Speaker 2 OKC did to Minnesota, which was strangle them like a python.

Speaker 1 That'll be a dude to Indiana.

Speaker 2 When they go all the way up to the free throw line and say, oh, you want to bring the ball up?

Speaker 2 Go ahead.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 they start

Speaker 2 mini trapping. Forget it.
No chance.

Speaker 1 What's interesting is Indiana can do the flip side to OKC.

Speaker 1 It's not like OKC has like a real point guard.

Speaker 1 And you could try to do the same thing, but I just think OKC's defense is better. Rob, who do you think has a better chance from

Speaker 1 Let's just, I'll give you either side,

Speaker 1 Knicks or Indiana going to the next round?

Speaker 3 I think there's no question Indiana has a better chance.

Speaker 3 The only way to beat the Thunder is to be unbelievably precise with your passing. And, you know, you have Tyrese Halliburton has these amazing 15-assist zero turnover games.

Speaker 3 Overall, it's an incredibly low turnover offense. I suspect that would change if they meet in the NBA Finals.
I think the pressure ratcheting up is going to be a totally different thing.

Speaker 3 And it speaks to what you mentioned, Bill, about the way that the Thunder break teams, the way that they kind of break your spirit. I think a lot of it is game one.

Speaker 3 You go in, you think you know what they are, you see it, it's tough. You think, okay, we're going to go back, we're going to look at the film, we're going to figure out where the holes are.

Speaker 3 You look at the film and it's like, there kind of are no holes, or they're vanishingly small.

Speaker 3 And whatever, however, you think playing against the thunder is going to be, they are so much faster and more frenetic than you anticipate.

Speaker 3 And so, even like, by the time you get to game three, it's like, I just don't think there's anything here. Like, I don't know what the mechanism is.

Speaker 3 Again, short of, as you said, having Nikola Jokic on your team, a guy who can see over the top of that entire defense and try to make 99th percentile passes out of it.

Speaker 3 Short of that, I honestly don't know what you do. That's not to say that they're unbeatable, I just don't know what the formula is.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they cause turnovers that you see in like an eighth-grade basketball game of just like that strong lob passes that just get picked off for a dunk.

Speaker 1 I'll give you one case for Indiana that I thought was interesting. I looked this up.
Um,

Speaker 1 there's been 10 teams ever that have won 10 playoff games and averaged at least 28 assists a game. Here are the teams.
The 85 Lakers won the title. 33.7 assists a game, by the way.

Speaker 1 82 Lakers won the title. 84 Lakers went to a game seven in the finals.
80 Lakers won the title. 86 Celtics won the title.
Number six all-time, Indiana.

Speaker 1 86 Houston made the finals. 19 Warriors should have won the title, made the finals.
87 Lakers won the title, and the 17 Warriors won the title. Those are 10 teams that did that.

Speaker 1 And that made me think: like, maybe this Indiana team is a little more rare offensively than we're giving it credit for. And then they stink tonight.
And that stat.

Speaker 1 That's why I waited 53 minutes to redo that list. It's all ready to lead with that if they won tonight.

Speaker 2 Here's the thing. We saw a valiant effort out of Minnesota

Speaker 2 last night.

Speaker 2 You can try and score with Oklahoma City.

Speaker 2 That your best bet is to like score with them because they go, they go gaps, you know, where they're just a little too happy with taking shots that are just like comfortable.

Speaker 2 And they'll go a couple of minutes without making a bucket.

Speaker 2 I mean, Shea can always, always, always get to the lane, get inside the lane, and you know, get a floater off or get to the rim if he wants to. But

Speaker 1 we're old. We've seen a lot of great scorers.

Speaker 1 Shea's way getting way up there for me.

Speaker 2 Way up there.

Speaker 1 I can't believe how easily he gets whatever shot he wants, no matter how much the defense is throwing stuff at him.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, Kobe was more in that Jordan side of, and I think Wade was a little, Wade would just either go to the basket or he would shoot. He didn't have the three-point shot.

Speaker 1 He was so athletic, he could always figure out a way to kind of bounce off people and get in.

Speaker 1 Shea, the way he navigates, it's honestly like watching a hockey player, the way he kind of skates around until he gets what he wants and then he gets a shot he wants. Well,

Speaker 2 if you're going to do that, I'm going to say Gretzky. Like he moves that way.
He moves angles. Like he has shoulder tilt

Speaker 2 to getting off his stuff where he's avoiding contact.

Speaker 1 And then the footwork to finish and he always finishes. He always finishes whatever the great move was, which most guys, this is Jason Tatum was his biggest issue.

Speaker 1 He'd have these great moves and he would. wouldn't finish half the time.
Shea finishes every time. He finishes every time.

Speaker 3 Crazy good finisher. Like the way his length and the way he extends around the basket is so hard to counter.
The mid-range game is basically unstoppable, no matter what your size is.

Speaker 3 Like there's not a lot you can do. And, you know, you can have the conversation about the way he's officiated, but he also plays through contact to shoot.

Speaker 3 You know, this isn't James Harden pulling up through your arms and throwing the ball literally straight up in the air. Like he is playing to complete plays.

Speaker 3 And he honestly will convert a lot of and ones or kind of would be or should be and ones in a lot of cases.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I don't feel like when I was complaining a couple of times about how he was being called,

Speaker 1 I don't really blame him for some of the calls. It's just for whatever reason, reps gravitate towards certain styles.

Speaker 1 And for him, he has that way of when he drives, he can throw his left arm out and they usually think it's a foul. Sometimes it isn't, but I don't think that's the reason.

Speaker 1 I mean, to me, it's the footwork and just his the herky jerky stuff, the stop start.

Speaker 1 His stop start stuff is the best. I feel like it's even gone up a level in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 I just have not seen a lot of guys like him. I really think like this start to finish year for him, they have a chance to go 84 and 18

Speaker 1 for a season, which puts them in this whole like highest possible level of dudes. And he's just 32 a game night after night.
And it's not like, oh, he had that 75-point game that skewed his average.

Speaker 1 Every night it's 32, 38, 31, 35, 37, 29, 39. And it's just the steadiness of it, especially on a team where you kind of don't know who else is going to be steady offensively.

Speaker 1 Like, they haven't shot the ball well from three all playoffs, Rob, and it hasn't mattered.

Speaker 3 No, I mean, they'll have select guys who will pop off here and there, but the defense is so good, and Shea is so good.

Speaker 3 And I think in enough games, Jalen Williams has been so good that that triangulated together is enough to be an incredibly dominant, potentially historically dominant playoff team.

Speaker 3 I think what you described about Shea being that rock solid as a score, like he doesn't have these Tyrese Halliburton games.

Speaker 3 He doesn't even have the off-Jalen Brunson games where he'll, you know, shoot six for 19 from the field or whatever. Like, it's just always going to be there.

Speaker 3 And the fact that you can bank on that every night as a team gives you immense freedom to play guys like Alex Caruso and stretch them as far as you can, like, relative non-scorers.

Speaker 3 Play guys like Lou Dort even more than you would otherwise be able to get away with.

Speaker 3 Have the odd game from Chet where he, you know, can't quite hit from three and isn't a factor offensively in the way you would want, but who cares? Because Shea has 39.

Speaker 3 Like, I think you just have so much you can make up for when you have those two things as your two tent pulls. Shea putting in 30 plus, a defense like that.
It's incredibly tough to beat.

Speaker 1 We say this every time a team, and they have it, obviously, I need four more games, but we always say, like, you immediately start talking about how long could this go? Could this keep going?

Speaker 1 How many could they get?

Speaker 1 This feels like the safest bet to have like two in a row or three in a row

Speaker 1 with the Warriors. Right.

Speaker 1 If I get too far ahead of it, but yeah. Because I still feel like they're probably going to be better next year.
Yeah. Everybody comes back.

Speaker 1 The only thing I could see changing is if they traded Lou Dort because they had to move some money around, but it's going to be the same team, a year older,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 1 All of their young stars aren't even close to their primes except for Shay. So we'll see.

Speaker 1 I'm sure they're licking their chops, hoping this Indiana, New York game goes seven and more and more people get.

Speaker 1 or are playing semi-injured. Do you have a TV show recommendation for house once basketball ends for five days? I'm here.

Speaker 3 I'm trying to figure it out. You know, everything's ending right now.
I think we're about to check out Stick, the Owen Wilson golf comedy on outball.

Speaker 3 I'm excited for that. I'm excited to see what's going on with Stick.

Speaker 2 That's right in my wheelhouse.

Speaker 1 There we go. We got some stuff next month.
The Bears coming back. Oh, yeah.

Speaker 2 Can I say out loud that the last season of The Bear bored the shit out of me?

Speaker 1 I think it was a transition season. It's funny.

Speaker 3 I definitely can say it out loud.

Speaker 1 It's also not a show that was meant to be binged. Yeah.
It's a two.

Speaker 1 It should be two. House, I have a show for for you.

Speaker 2 I'm listening.

Speaker 1 It's the

Speaker 1 Mormon, the Mom Talk Moms on Hulu, whatever that show is. The reality show.

Speaker 1 Oh, it's a reality show? Yeah, it's these Mom Talk Moms.

Speaker 1 It's not a real Housewives show. It's like Mormon, the Mormon something.

Speaker 2 Let me ask a question that's delicate on live YouTube.

Speaker 1 No, no, be careful, House.

Speaker 2 How much menopause is involved?

Speaker 1 No, they're younger.

Speaker 1 They're all like young Mormon women.

Speaker 3 Is this the secret lives of Mormon wives? Is that what it is, House?

Speaker 2 Hey. But wait, are they on Mom Talk?

Speaker 1 They're on Mom Talk. They're Mom Talk.
No,

Speaker 1 not Mom Talk.

Speaker 1 They're called Mom Talkers.

Speaker 1 Mom Talk. I was watching it with my daughter.
This is a favorite show. My daughter's hard about watching bad television shows like this again.
But

Speaker 1 there was a swinging scandal. House.

Speaker 2 Oh, I'm in. That's not a scandal if you're Mormon.

Speaker 1 Oh, shit. Well, it was a scandal.
You're not allowed to say that. No, well, that was the thing.

Speaker 1 It violated the religion. It also violated some friendships, and there was some healing to the religion.

Speaker 1 The Mormon.

Speaker 1 I'm going to stop. Some stuff was a house.

Speaker 1 Let me tell you, it's in your wheelhouse. Okay, good, good.
All right.

Speaker 1 And then it's episode four. I'd be like, it would be cool if you guys all went on vacation and then played games where you guys got into fights with each other.
And of course, they do that.

Speaker 1 So anyway, for me and my daughter,

Speaker 1 it was really a win all the way around. So that's my recognition.
Is that what it's called? Secret Lives of Mormon something.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 Yeah. There you go.

Speaker 2 I don't get

Speaker 1 the category on TikTok. I don't know if they're cranking out the Secret Live show in Rob's house.
Secret Lives of Mormon wives.

Speaker 2 That's what's the Secret Lives of Mormon wives. Yeah.

Speaker 3 Okay. Yeah.
I have died inside during this segment, but

Speaker 1 we live on it. We're going to be reborn tomorrow.
Just get 40 minutes out of your life. We might not have basketball in two days.
It's fair.

Speaker 1 I remember trying to talk house into Laguna Laguna Beach 20 years ago. Mission of Company.
That was very hard. Well, because he was already watching it.

Speaker 2 Didn't really have to bend my arm.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Rob Bahoney, are we going to see you? When are we seeing you on group chat?

Speaker 3 Well, the good news is now that we have a Saturday game, we're going to have a Saturday group chat. So there you go.

Speaker 1 Tune in for us on Saturday. Let's go.
Let's house. We'll talk gaming.

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Speaker 1 It is late Thursday morning, Pacific time. I needed a Massachusetts guy on.
It had been a while. I don't know.
I've had a few over the years, but we got Albert Breer from Sports L Strain.

Speaker 1 Also, haven't talked football in a long time on this podcast. Haven't talked football with you on this podcast ever.
And I sent you a text and I said, Come up with a gimmick.

Speaker 1 I don't want to know what it is. Maybe it's a gimmick like

Speaker 1 you're buried in the NBA playoffs. Stuff's happening in the NFL that you're probably not paying attention to.
I'm here to tell you what that is. What gimmick did you come up with?

Speaker 2 That was actually exactly it, Bill.

Speaker 2 Oh, great.

Speaker 1 I spoiled your gimmick.

Speaker 2 That,

Speaker 2 yeah, you might be buried in the NBA playoffs. And so we're going to get everybody caught up on what's happening in the NFL who hasn't been paying attention.

Speaker 2 And I got a sneaking suspicion a couple of these

Speaker 2 you probably paid some attention to, but

Speaker 2 I actually had trouble narrowing it down to five, but I think I have five.

Speaker 1 You could do an honorable mention at the end if there's a couple of things. I have a couple honorable mentions.

Speaker 2 My honorable mentions, we can do that start. Like Jim Merce is passing.
I think

Speaker 2 we should

Speaker 2 give some mention to that. And then Trey Hendrickson's contract situation.
I didn't know if that was interesting enough, but that's still ongoing.

Speaker 1 We'll save those for the end.

Speaker 1 Coming in with a bang first, and then we'll save the honorable mention for late.

Speaker 2 The other thing is, like over the last 48 hours, I did learn what pink cocaine is. So, I got that too.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 this has been on a few of my PATS fan text threads.

Speaker 1 I also did not know what pink cocaine is, but I'm old.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Stefan Diggs. All right.
And yeah, is it a yacht scandal? Is it an ambrolio? What is it?

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know if it would. I mean, it's not like it's up there with like the love boat, you know, in Minnesota 20 years ago.
That, that, I think, still a gold standard.

Speaker 2 And I'd probably probably put, I'd probably still put this behind like the SS Beckham in

Speaker 2 2016, right, right, right before the playoffs. But maybe it might be number three in my time covering the NFL as far as vote scandals go.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Vrabel, Pat's coach, Mike Vrabel, the new most important coach of my life,

Speaker 1 he was just basically like, we're not talking about this and yada yada it a little bit. And we'll see if the story dies.
All right.

Speaker 1 So let's go top five biggest things first, and then we'll do honorable mentions so the biggest thing that has happened during the nba playoffs nfl related that you think i should care about because i'm paying attention is what

Speaker 2 the steelers didn't sign a quarterback

Speaker 1 what are they doing um

Speaker 2 they are pretty confident that their quarterback is going to be aaron rodgers and i do think that there's like

Speaker 2 I think there's actually some decent reason here for people who want to listen to it. And I think this, this,

Speaker 2 this goes back to like how you manage everything in the spring and trying to get their work done.

Speaker 2 And I think the logic for both sides here was: if he signs April 1st, and look, he's got personal stuff he's dealing with, he's traveling.

Speaker 2 And if he signs April 1st and says, okay, guys, like I'm going to go away for the next two months. And when I'm back, I'm back.
But like,

Speaker 2 I got some personal stuff I got to attend to. I got a,

Speaker 2 I've got travel planned.

Speaker 2 What you're inviting then is then whenever you start the off-season program, you get into OTAs,

Speaker 2 anytime the media is there, it's going to be, where's Aaron? Where's Aaron? Where's Aaron? And so I think both sides wanted to avoid that.

Speaker 2 And so that's part of it. And then I think the other end of it, and this is like, to me, almost the more interesting thing.
I think Aaron was really affected by the way

Speaker 2 his trip to Egypt was covered last year. And so going through all of that.

Speaker 1 Can we go backwards? How is it covered? I don't even remember.

Speaker 2 Well, if you remember, so he skipped the mini kit. The Jets had their mini camp at the end of June or in the middle of June last year, at the end of their offseason program.

Speaker 2 And Aaron had been like pretty much a full participant in everything that they'd done up until then. And then he skipped the mini camp.

Speaker 2 And it was something that they had kind of predetermined he was going to do. But, you know, Sala said to him, okay, like, that's fine, but I still have to fine you.

Speaker 2 And I still have to hold you responsible. And I still have to say, like, this isn't an excused absence because because we have to have a standard for everybody.

Speaker 2 And it became like a two or three week story. And when they hit bumps in the summer and early in the fall, it continued to be a story.

Speaker 2 And I, like, the sense I get is that Aaron was frustrated by that and he didn't want to go through that again. So I think part of the logic here for the Steelers, for Aaron, is

Speaker 2 just whenever you're in, you're all in, but not until then. And so

Speaker 2 I think the logic here between the Steelers and Aaron is like, okay, like once you show up, like we need all of you, bud. We need you.
We need you all the way here.

Speaker 2 And so Aaron's taking care of everything he needs to take care of now. And

Speaker 2 when he shows up, I do think he'll be all in. And, you know, again, I think a huge part of this is marked by what happened with the Jets last year.

Speaker 1 Can I recap your seemingly logical explanation? Yeah.

Speaker 1 So Aaron Rodgers was upset that when he left the team to go to Egypt during a time when all of his teammates were actually around and accountable to play for the Jets, that people covered that like it was a news story because he was the quarterback of the most famous person in the team.

Speaker 1 And he didn't like how that played out.

Speaker 2 Because it was a news story.

Speaker 1 Yeah. So he didn't like that.
A news story was a news story. And now he is doing this.

Speaker 1 I don't know what I'm doing yet, but then he's also.

Speaker 1 Showing up on Pat McAfee, just opining on stuff and kind of doing whatever he wants.

Speaker 1 Like, if I'm on the Steelers and I thought this guy, I thought Rodgers was, didn't want to get hit anymore last year. I don't know how you felt.
Did you feel like he wanted to get hit anymore?

Speaker 1 Cause I didn't.

Speaker 2 So I think that there's an element of that, but I think if you go back and you watch, you see pieces of it.

Speaker 2 Like, I'm telling you, just pull up like a 10-minute highlight of their game against the Jaguars, which nobody watched because it was the Jets and the Jaguars at the end of the season.

Speaker 2 But if you pull up like a 10-minute YouTube highlight of that game at the end of December, you'll see it's like all still there. You'll be like, wow, like that looks like Aaron Rodgers in 2011.

Speaker 2 2011, you know?

Speaker 1 I mean, I didn't realize he was able to pull that off against the tanking Jaguars.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but it does look good. I'm just telling you, like, like, I understand, but like, there were some real, there was like some high-level shit in that game.

Speaker 2 And then he and Devontae Adams, they, they, it, it, it's really, it's, it's all there, you know? So,

Speaker 2 um,

Speaker 2 you know, I, I think, I think what's maybe most interesting about this whole thing to me is where the Steelers are and that they are so leveraged for right now.

Speaker 2 TJ Watt wants a new contract. He's turning 31.
Minka Fitzpatrick's turning 29. I mean, Cam Hayward isn't on the back nine.
He's, I mean, basically walking to the clubhouse now.

Speaker 2 Like he, this is probably his last shot. They trade for DK Metcalf, who's a third contract guy and has had some injury issues.
Like it's really,

Speaker 2 I mean, this is a team, like if this group's going to win, it sort of has to be right now.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, I think a big part of, you know, the Steelers' logic, and I felt like all along, like they were going to be a contender for whatever big name quarterback became available.

Speaker 2 Is Kirk Cousins a swing for the fences?

Speaker 1 I've been waiting on that one, by the way.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And like, to me, like, that's the thing with Kirk.
It's like Kirk is like more, you may be more likely to hit a double with Kirk and less likely to hit a home run, if that makes sense.

Speaker 2 You know, where with Aaron, maybe you're more likely to strike out, but at least you're swinging for the fences when you've been really average at that position since Ben Rothlessberger retired.

Speaker 1 So you're basically only in the torn Achilles recovery old quarterback business at this point in time. I mean, what are they available, though?

Speaker 2 I mean, if it wasn't going to be Stafford, right? Like, and I think Stafford was the most logical answer for a lot of different teams, you know, and the Raiders and Giants were really in that one.

Speaker 2 The Steelers dipped their toe in it. I like.
There just aren't that many options, you know? So

Speaker 2 it was a bad year to be looking at quarterback in the draft, especially, you know, if you didn't have the first overall pick.

Speaker 2 And the veteran options, again, like there were a lot of, I mean, the Rams, when the Rams, when the Rams made the offer they did to Stafford, you know, back in March, it was with it in the back of their head.

Speaker 2 This guy doesn't want to leave Los Angeles, and this guy doesn't want to play for anybody but Sean.

Speaker 2 And the Giants, and the Giants had the, yeah, and the Giants had the same, the Giants had the same like sort of thing in the backs of their head as they were, as they were pursuing him raiders too it was like yeah we're really going after this but this guy's going to wind up back in la so you know if you take stafford off the table then it really is it's cousins it's it's it's it's rogers and then

Speaker 1 i mean now after that you're talking about getting into like joe flacco territory there just wasn't a lot out there so just all all probably washed up guys so the steelers died in the last month of the season and one of the people one of the things one of the reasons they died is TJ Watt died as the season went along.

Speaker 1 And the last, I don't know, 40, 35, 40% of his season, he just didn't seem disruptive anymore. And I know they, you know, maybe under the radar are blaming the Russell Wilson thing got weird.

Speaker 1 Team wasn't that good to begin with.

Speaker 1 The schedule got really unfavorable for them down the stretch, et cetera, et cetera. But like, I'm looking at FanDuel, and they are over eight and a half wins.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Which with in the Tom and era, for me, is just a blind. I don't even have to look at that checking it.

Speaker 1 That's plus 125 on FanDuels because all the action has been on the under, which is now minus 145.

Speaker 2 I don't how much that's just because Mason Rudolph's a quarterback right now.

Speaker 1 But could it also be what happened to them in the last month of last season and the fact that you could point to a couple AFC teams and go, well, that team's going to be the Pats are going to be better.

Speaker 1 The Jets are going to be better. They're in the same thing with the Ravens.
The Bengals, they might fix their defense. We'll see with Hendrickson.

Speaker 1 The Browns might actually have a little more stability at quarterback. AFC South is going to be better, except for Houston.
You go on through and it's like, maybe this is going to run out this year.

Speaker 1 I'm just starting my homework and it makes, they make me nervous.

Speaker 2 They're, they're, so like, I would, you know, I would say like their offensive line should be a lot better. Like, and they've, we've actually drafted okay.

Speaker 2 If Troy Fitanu, you know, works out for them at tackle, you know, they've got Broderick Jones. That's two first-round picks at tackle.
They should be as strong.

Speaker 2 Zach Frazier might be the best young center in football. Like they, they have a chance to have the best offensive line they've had in over a decade.

Speaker 2 And then if DK Metcalf comes through, and I know I'm talking a lot of ifs here, right? Like if DK Metcalf comes through, if TJ Watt is himself again, if Minka Fitzpatrick.

Speaker 1 Aaron Rodgers is still alive.

Speaker 2 Right. So like, there's all of these ifs, but if, but if you're them, like, what's your other choice? You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 It's either, it was either this, like, take this big swing at quarterback and try to get it right and try to squeeze a championship run out of this core that you've had together for the last few years or blow it up.

Speaker 2 And like, that's why I look at this as like, that's, it's, it's the one team where you look at it. I was like, that's a team that like, that's a really worthy swing.

Speaker 2 Because now, at least, like, you're taking that swing with TJ Watt and Fitzpatrick and like some really great players that they've had there for a long time. Um,

Speaker 2 I don't, I don't mind this swing if I'm the Steelers.

Speaker 2 And, look, like, I think people there would tell you that the Russell Wilson thing undermined so many things in the last month of the season, and that a lot of that building really wanted them to go back to Justin Fields.

Speaker 2 And it was, it was something where, I mean, Tomlin was kind of, again, all on his own on that one. And I think it's part of the reason why

Speaker 2 Tomlin likes Shadur, like, like he likes Shadur going into the draft, but I don't think Tomlin wanted to, I don't, I don't think he wanted to like press that button again at quarterback after what happened with Russell at the end of the year last year.

Speaker 2 So, there's some dynamics there where it's like, I mean, there's some stuff that happened at the end of the year in games where it was just like, man, like, if we were just like average at that position, or we were just

Speaker 2 running things as they were supposed to be run, we might have been okay.

Speaker 2 And like, so I think their thought is,

Speaker 2 if we can get like 80, 85% of what Aaron Rodgers was three years ago, like we might have a Super Bowl team, which you can argue whether they would or not.

Speaker 2 But I think when you, when, if you're them and you're looking at it with this group of players that you've had for the last few years, and this might be your last shot before you really like

Speaker 2 go through like a real reset, then it's worth taking that swing.

Speaker 1 Well, philosophically, they just feel like they're one of the teams that have decided it doesn't make sense to spend a lot of money at quarterback unless the guy's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And we could patch this together, put together the rest of the team around, and try to get to 10-11 wins every year, and then hope we can cross our fingers. Here's the issue for them:

Speaker 1 I mean, if I asked you on FanDuel right now,

Speaker 1 who had better odds to make the playoffs, the Patriots or the Steelers, who would you say?

Speaker 2 Well, because you're asking me, I know it's the Patriots.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I probably could have framed that better. I should be better at this after 19 years.
Yeah, the Patriots are plus 158, and the Steelers are plus 164.

Speaker 2 Now, a lot of that has to do with this schedule.

Speaker 1 This schedule the Patriots have is, it's comical. Yeah.
Like, you're like, is this real? Where are they? Oh, there's Buffalo. Okay, there's.

Speaker 1 But you go through it and it's like, they're favored, apparently. And 11 to 15, 13.

Speaker 1 I think it's 13 of the 17 right now, or 12, something like that. Anyway, well, we'll see with Pittsburgh.
All right. What's your number two thing?

Speaker 2 So my number two thing, the Cowboys, a year after Jerry Jones famously used the phrase all-in, actually pulled an all-in move and traded for George Pickens.

Speaker 2 And this one is really interesting to me because they're another team where, like, what all the things you said about the Steelers, I think, sort of apply to the Cowboys, right?

Speaker 2 Like, is this group that they have right now going to be good enough?

Speaker 2 And, like, is there something that you can do to try to put that group over the top? And so, I think the answer was, like, we got to get Dak Prescott some more help.

Speaker 2 And so, when they went into the draft, they looked at it like, we either want to come out with a come out of this with a lineman or a, or a receiver.

Speaker 2 And I think if Tedero and McMillan, who went eighth to the Panthers, made it to 12,

Speaker 2 like maybe that would have been a consideration. But they were sort of looking at it as this mosaic.

Speaker 2 It's like, well, we still have, there were, I think there were a handful of receivers they were considering in trade, veteran receivers that they had studied and they had talked to teams about.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 McMillan's gone. They like Tyler Booker.
They just lost Zach Martin. They draft Tyler Booker.

Speaker 2 And then on the back end, they go and make the deal for George Pickens, which here's the most interesting thing about it to me.

Speaker 1 I'm cracking my neck as we get ready for this.

Speaker 2 So this one, this one.

Speaker 2 So the reason, one of the main reasons the Steelers got rid of George Pickens

Speaker 2 is because

Speaker 2 the issues with him a lot of times have come out, come down to his role in the offense, the direction of the offense, and how much he's getting the ball, which is normal with a lot of receivers.

Speaker 2 He's very over the top with it, which makes him worse than most with it when it comes to that stuff. And so, when they traded for DK

Speaker 2 Metcalf, the thing was, it was like he plays the same position, not that they're just receivers, the same receiver.

Speaker 1 The same run in a straight line down the sideline position.

Speaker 2 The ex-receiver position, right? So, they're both ex-receivers. Okay, so now you got to figure out a way to play them together.
And now, George Pickens is in a contract year.

Speaker 2 So, do you think if he goes through a two or a three or a four week stretch in the middle of October with say three catches, and is he going to be okay with that just because we got another receiver?

Speaker 1 So as we discussed earlier, the quarterback situation might not be to George's liking.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 To say the least.

Speaker 2 So is he going to be okay? Is he going to be okay with, if he wasn't okay with it before, now in a contract year with $100 million on the line, is he suddenly going to be okay with, no, that's fine.

Speaker 2 I'm okay. DK Metcalf's on the team now.

Speaker 2 Okay, so like that's part of the logic for the Steelers and moving off of him and saying we're going to be better off with Calvin Austin and Roman Wilson and whoever else.

Speaker 1 Well, can I interject one thing here? Now, here's the thing.

Speaker 1 But when he started the Thursday night, that last play of the game against the Browns.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 When instead of trying to go for the Hill Mary, he just chose to get in a fight with the D-back that he'd been waiting to get in a fight with for an hour. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That to me is like, it's the beginning of the end, at least with George in Pittsburgh. That was such a weird play.

Speaker 2 So there's that, but like, and there's the lack of effort blocking sometimes, all of that, right? Like, so like that all exists. Okay, so

Speaker 2 if, if that, if that, that whole thing was going to be the ball, be it, be it, be it be a problem in a contract year in Pittsburgh, who's one of the highest volume receivers in football as far as targets go?

Speaker 1 Well, CeeDee Lamb.

Speaker 2 Right. So like, is this now going to be okay with him? Again, he's in a new place.

Speaker 2 He's with new offensive coaches who are in their first year truly running the offense because Mike McCarthy's gone now.

Speaker 2 And he's not getting the ball with all that money on the line. Is he suddenly going to be okay with that?

Speaker 1 So you don't think they're going to take care of him as part of this deal? Because that was my assumption.

Speaker 2 Not right now. They're not.
I mean, they're going to see how it goes. And like I said, like

Speaker 2 everything's going to be. in May and June, like it's all, it's really easy for everybody to have their arms around each other and say, this is all going to work out May and June.

Speaker 2 It's a little different to project these things in September and October. They still have the Micah Parsons thing floating around out there, too.

Speaker 2 Like, and I, and I know, like, one thing that they had sort of discussed with George and his people was, are you comfortable going into the year without a new contract? And the answer was yes.

Speaker 2 And so, like, if they go into the year.

Speaker 2 So, like, but you can look at that both ways, right? Like, is it, are you going to get a super motivated guy who's going to be out to prove to everybody he's team first? Maybe.

Speaker 2 I think the people in Pittsburgh would tell you what might be more likely is if he's not getting the ball a month or two into the season, you could have a problem.

Speaker 1 So that's sort of like we also have a, we have a 30-year, maybe even longer

Speaker 1 sample size with receivers like this who aren't getting paid or aren't getting the contracts they want, then aren't getting the ball enough and kind of how that's going to go.

Speaker 1 I just, to me, like from afar.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's just like a typical Jared Jones move, but it's a shine. It's another shiny new toy.

Speaker 1 It's like when the bark box comes for my dog every month and it's like, hey, it's a newspaper that's a squeaky toy.

Speaker 1 And my dog will be excited about it for 20 minutes and then moves on to the next thing. That's how he's been in free agency almost every year.

Speaker 1 I thought they, I mean, running back to me was a way more important. The running backs murdered them last year.
They addressed that too. The offensive line isn't close to where it used to be.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I don't see any scenario where they're one of the top two teams in the NFC East.

Speaker 1 So you're just going into a season knowing you're number three and maybe even worse if the Giants are a little bit better right away than people think. So I do not feel good if I'm Dallas.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and that division, by the way, you've seen the schedule for that division? They're playing the NFC North and the AFC West.

Speaker 1 Brutal. It's the worst one of all the schedules.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, so, I mean, it's going to be really interesting. And I think a lot of it for them is counting on Brian Schottenheimer as a culture builder that he'll be able to build the right environment.
But

Speaker 2 I always always go back but i always go back to like i i don't like

Speaker 2 the idea of like the the the receiver that the steelers that mike tomlin is ready to get rid of like the history of that's not great you know like when when mike tomlin i mean

Speaker 2 back in 2015 2016 like did anybody think of like antonio brown and le'on bell as bad guys

Speaker 2 It wasn't until they were gone, really, you know, or disruptive in some ways. They got disruptive at the end.
Like like Bell got disruptive at the end, but it's just generally when

Speaker 2 the Steelers are ready to walk away from a guy for those sorts of reasons or a guy who has that sort of background, generally it doesn't work out for the next team that gets them.

Speaker 1 Dallas is,

Speaker 1 you could get,

Speaker 1 and they're over-under's eight and a half. Playoffs not looking great.

Speaker 1 I'm down on them. What's your third thing?

Speaker 2 Derek Carr retired, which I feel like this maybe because it happened on a Saturday, kind of like flew under the radar. You know what I mean? Like, but

Speaker 2 it's one of a number of quarterback situations. I kind of grouped this together.

Speaker 2 This is cheating a little bit by me, but the Saints, the Vikings, the Browns, like I, there are, it feels like a few teams where the quarterback situations are going to be really interesting.

Speaker 1 Or Macabre.

Speaker 1 Or Grizzly. I don't know what the right adjective is, but there's going to be some tough ones.

Speaker 2 I mean, I throw the Viking. I'm hesitant to throw the Vikings in there.

Speaker 1 Don't be hesitant. We don't know if J.J.
McCarthy going to go to the Torade CL is going to be good. Who knows?

Speaker 2 And the reason I throw him in there with the other two is because the expectations are so high there. Like, if you're a player on that team, that's a 14-win team last year.

Speaker 2 Like, that's not the type of team that

Speaker 2 can throw the year overboard in the name of quarterback development. So, you know, what does that look like? And, you know, I know like JJ fought through a lot last year.

Speaker 2 He lost a lot of weight, like, and he had a lot of ups and downs like coming back from that injury. And, you know, obviously had the second follow-up surgery was more of a cleanup.

Speaker 2 He's in a much better place right now.

Speaker 2 And I don't think there's a better place in the league for a young quarterback to be, especially because of what they did with their offensive line and signing Ryan Kelly and Will Fry and drafting Donovan Jackson.

Speaker 2 And, you know, getting Christian Daraso back, obviously, will help a lot. But the Vikings are the one where I look at it and it's like so much is going to hinge.

Speaker 2 I mean, that could be a Super Bowl team if J.J. McCarthy has a great year,

Speaker 2 or the quarterback position could really hold them back.

Speaker 1 Well, plus, especially you had cousins for a few years there who, regardless of how you feel about him, was still a significantly above-average quarterback. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Then you get Darling for four months last year, who was excellent.

Speaker 1 And now you have a new guy who, God only knows, coming off ACL.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So I got to look at those three teams.
Like the Saints to me,

Speaker 2 I mean, like Tyler Shuck, Spencer Rattler. I mean, Jake Hander's hurt now.

Speaker 1 Well, can you explain the salary cap piece of it? Because wasn't it in a weird way a great thing that Derek Carr retired? Because I think the Saints were going to suck either way.

Speaker 1 So doesn't that help them?

Speaker 2 It was one of the more bizarre endings to a career

Speaker 2 I've seen in 20 years covering this. I mean, it started with, if you go back to the end of the season, like I think Kellen Moore committed, but didn't really commit to Carr as the starter in

Speaker 2 the introductory press conference. Then

Speaker 2 there were some whispers that Carr wanted to trade and some teams sniffed around that.

Speaker 1 They sniffed around and it smelled like sewage.

Speaker 2 They were like, oh.

Speaker 2 And then there was, well, Carr wants a raise because to affirm, like, this is my team.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, we got to confirm that. He was so good the last two years.
Let's give him the car keys.

Speaker 2 Then after that, they convert his contract, which basically means he's on the team without really consulting with them, which they can do.

Speaker 2 It's a contract mechanism, but it basically locked them in where it converted. It took like basically, you know, 95% of his 98% of his salary and turned it into a signing bonus.

Speaker 1 So they F themselves for this season with how they did that because they didn't think this season was going to go well anyway.

Speaker 2 Yeah, they had. And that restructures, that, that, that restructure pushes the cap money forward, but it basically locks him in with the team.
Now,

Speaker 2 where they are saved by this is that they, they, they don't have to spend that money now. Now, they sunk a $10 million roster bonus into him.

Speaker 2 And part of the separation agreement is he gets to keep the $10 million roster bonus. It's a buyout.

Speaker 2 Yeah, for the most part. And now they move on.
And we'll see. I mean, Tyler Shuck was in college for seven years.
He was at four different schools.

Speaker 2 I've actually,

Speaker 2 I've heard he has, I think it's four degrees, which is pretty wild.

Speaker 2 But like he was, he was Justin Herbert's backup for two years at Oregon, which is, which gives you an idea

Speaker 2 how old he is.

Speaker 2 And then you have him competing with Spencer Rattler. And you see where that goes.
And that looks like,

Speaker 2 is this a full reset year for them where they're in the mix for one of the quarterbacks next year?

Speaker 2 You know, obviously there's a quarterback who could be in the draft.

Speaker 2 I don't think he will be in the draft, but a quarterback who could be in the draft next year with a very famous last name that has ties to that organization.

Speaker 1 Wouldn't you say that's the number one I could see them tanking once we get to November NFL team that we have. I can't even think of another one that would be a bigger suspect.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, like, they

Speaker 2 I'd have to think about that one.

Speaker 2 I mean, I don't know how many teams there are that are like just outright in that position, need a quarterback, might wind up being in that position where they're not very good.

Speaker 2 And you never know, like, the way these things are gonna

Speaker 2 play out. Kellen Moore is a first-year coach, obviously, can't afford for them.
It's it's hard for him to

Speaker 1 number one because, like, even if you look at a team like Tennessee, they just got their quarterback, right? So it's not like they'd be like, oh, I hope we suck. Carolina has a quarterback.

Speaker 1 Chicago has a quarterback. Cleveland would be the only other one, right?

Speaker 2 Vegas should be competitive. I think more competitive with Geno as a quarterback.
So, yeah, I mean, Cleveland would be the other one if that thing crashes and burns.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they just took two.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
And the only other one I can think of is the Colts.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's probably an AFC South team that will have the number one pick next year, would be my guess.

Speaker 2 The Colts have the Colts could the Colts, the Colts are interesting because that could be, I mean, obviously with

Speaker 2 new people with a new owner, a new principal owner in charge.

Speaker 2 And then like the GM has been there now for Chris Balor's been there for, this will be his ninth year there, and they really haven't accomplished a ton.

Speaker 2 If he's in trouble, then maybe the coach is in trouble. It could, if things get off to a bad start there, it could get messy in a hurry.

Speaker 1 He's good at telling everybody how well he's doing, though, Chris Balor.

Speaker 1 It's going great.

Speaker 1 He seems like a lot of people love him. And every year, it's like a victory lap about how good their drafter for agency was.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, yeah, it's hard because, like, I mean, like, they, it, it really, while Luck was still a quarterback, it looked like it was really going in a great direction.

Speaker 2 And then, you know, you have the surprise retirement

Speaker 1 there.

Speaker 2 And that was, that's the thing is, like, it had been a crutch for a while, and it can't be a crutch anymore. It's been way too long.

Speaker 1 No, you look at that division because I think Houston's, I really liked Houston last year. So Houston's my

Speaker 1 nervous, right?

Speaker 2 Not enough people are talking about how I think Houston could bounce back in a really big way.

Speaker 1 Oh, make the case.

Speaker 2 So like, I think Houston, I think Houston's got a top five defense. And I think with

Speaker 2 the level of like, like the young core players like Will Anderson and derek stingley and you know they bring daniil hunter back and they've got like a lot of nice ancillary pieces on defense too really good

Speaker 2 they they've they've got the defense yeah they've got the defense where they want it and Part of the reason they traded Laramie Tunsell was because they felt like the culture in their offensive line room was broken and that they weren't able to kind of match like the culture they built on defense on offense.

Speaker 2 Interesting. And so they trade Laramie Tunsell.
They bring in a million different tackles to try and fix it. They draft the the kid from Minnesota.
They bring in Trent Brown and Cam Robinson.

Speaker 2 They just throw a bunch of darts at tackle. They bring in a new offensive coordinator from the Rams and Nick Cayley.

Speaker 1 They take two wide receivers from the same college.

Speaker 2 Right, who I think have a chance to be really like, if you look at the history from that school, like a lot of guys from that school come in and produce right away.

Speaker 2 So it wouldn't shock me like as like complimentary pieces to Nico Collins if those guys are playing pretty well right away. And you have CJ Stroud.

Speaker 2 I look at it and I'm like, a lot of people have totally forgotten about them. I think they have an elite defense.

Speaker 2 And if your problem is offense and you've got CJ Stroud to build around and you're bringing in a coordinator from the Rams, who I think is really capable and has both like the Josh McDaniels and Sean McVay background,

Speaker 2 and you play in a weak division,

Speaker 2 and like as much as people thought they were not the same last year, They were down by one point going into the fourth quarter of the divisional rounded arrow.

Speaker 1 I was just going to, I was going to say that.

Speaker 1 Well, that Chiefs game is the best case for that. They're actually going to be good this year.
And they're a little, a little closer than people think. The other case would be the division.

Speaker 2 Right, right. So, like, like, it's, I think we look at it like it was broken because our expectations were so high after CJ's rookie year, D'Amico's first year.

Speaker 2 And I'm, I, I just don't know that teams are looking at that. Like, I don't know if people are looking at that team enough and saying, you know what?

Speaker 2 Like, there's still a lot of like really good stuff in place here. and if the young quarterback bounces back where cj was doing incredibly high level shit in 23

Speaker 2 like that could be a dangerous team now do they break into the buffalo baltimore kansas city um

Speaker 2 do they break into to to to that tier um you know cincinnati could get back into that tier like maybe maybe not but i i think they're like if you look at like the the teams in the afc like they may have the best chance to do it of the of the teams that are right below that

Speaker 1 so the division odds do you know what their odds are's got to be an overwhelming favorite right so that's what i thought too went to fanil they're plus 115 when they have 6th i don't know who else you would bet in the afc south unless you wanted to really talk yourself into jacksonville i was going to say is there like a lot of belief in james gladstone and liam cohen now i don't know

Speaker 1 or is there belief that that trade might we actually might be like wow Travis Sunner is like pretty good, but holy shit, they gave up a lot for that guy. He's not jumping away my TV.

Speaker 2 I can't wait to watch him, but I just me neither.

Speaker 2 I think Jacksonville's problem, like under the last regime, you know, the and this is where I think like there's some cleaning up that needs to be done.

Speaker 2 Yeah, is like they paid a lot of good players great money. Like there are guys, there are guys in that roster that they paid like their franchise players when they're just pretty good.

Speaker 2 Um, and you know, put Trevor Lawrence on that list because that would, I mean, you could, you could, I think, you know, they pay Walker a little to play left tackle after he played for like 15 minutes for them right tyson campbell at corner i mean christian kirk is gone but i think he'd be another example of that

Speaker 2 um you know like there was just a lot of examples of like i mean you could even you could even like argue that that that walker is one of those guys you know what i mean like so like are they just do they just have like a collection of pretty good players and they don't have like the types of they don't have like houston has will anders like i said will anders derek stingly nico collins C.J.

Speaker 2 Stroud.

Speaker 1 I mean, they have an identity at least.

Speaker 2 Right. Like, how many players on Houston's roster? Like, if you rank the two rosters, Houston and Jacksonville, how many Texans would you have to go through to get to the first Jaguar?

Speaker 1 Oof.

Speaker 2 You know?

Speaker 1 All right. Well, I sidetracked it.
You have two more on your list. Yep.

Speaker 2 So, number four,

Speaker 2 Caleb Williams is in the news again.

Speaker 2 And this is an excerpt from, I think, our mutual friend Seth Wickersham's book.

Speaker 2 And it was for those who missed it. Before the 2024 draft, he and his dad had looked at the idea of

Speaker 2 he and his dad had looked at the idea of forcing their way out. I guess what you would call it is pulling an Eli

Speaker 2 and had their eyes on the Vikings. And the Vikings had actually researched Caleb, too.
That was, of course, the draft they took J.J. McCarthy in.

Speaker 2 So, like, this has become like a little bit of a firestorm in Chicago. And I think it's sort of, I think, the first signal of like what's to come for Caleb there.

Speaker 2 And I think he is such a high-end talent.

Speaker 1 Like, when you, wait, when you say what's to come, you mean venom and disappointment?

Speaker 2 Well, just no, like, just the level of like the training wheels are off now. The excuses are gone

Speaker 1 from a scrutiny standpoint.

Speaker 2 Yeah, like, like, now it's like you have to start playing well. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You know, we've seen the year two jump. I mean, this might get you excited about Drake too, but we've seen the year two jump.

Speaker 1 Where you get more excited?

Speaker 2 I mean, I mean, but you look at it, like Patrick Mahomes, MVP of the league his second year.

Speaker 2 Lamar Jackson, MVP of the league his second year, Joe Burrows in the, in the Super Bowl in his second year, Josh Allen, 10 wins and in the playoffs in his second year.

Speaker 1 Drake May is going to be in his second year.

Speaker 2 And so, and so like, you look at all of this, right? Like, and so, like, is, is Caleb going to take that step?

Speaker 2 And I think, I think this is like a, like, this, this is a scrutiny that Caleb's going to be under because they fixed so many things.

Speaker 2 They drafted Colston Loveland, 10th overall, Luther Burden, with their second pick. They traded for Joe Tooney and Jonah Jackson to play guard.
They signed Drew Dahlman from Atlanta to play center.

Speaker 2 They hired Ben Johnson, which is a huge part of it.

Speaker 1 They've removed every excuse he had, coaching, offensive line, weapons, whatever.

Speaker 1 He has everything now.

Speaker 2 He has, and you look at it and it's like, this is a... This now looks like they should be able to get a very clean read on what Caleb can be.

Speaker 2 And it was interesting because I did a little reporting on this last week where,

Speaker 2 you know, I kind of like asked around like, you know, what they've been working on with Caleb.

Speaker 2 And the stuff that they've been working on was really how you carry yourself as a franchise quarterback and how you, and how you have to, like the command that you have to have to be a franchise quarterback.

Speaker 2 And, you know, a couple of the examples that were brought up to me, they watched tape of him

Speaker 2 taking sacks and how long it took for him to come off the ground. And basically the point they were trying to make to him was, Last year was a tough year.

Speaker 2 We understand your offensive coordinator gets fired, then your head coach gets fired. Your offensive line wasn't very good.
We get it.

Speaker 2 It's like, but if you're lying on the ground, you know, for an extended period of time, you're not picking yourself up off the ground, that's going to resonate with the rest of the team.

Speaker 2 That's the sort of thing that's going to, and so it's like, you need to be, you need to be popping up off the ground after hits.

Speaker 1 Did they show them Drake? Did you show them Drake May tapes of him popping off the ground during his 120 sacks?

Speaker 2 Probably be a good, probably going to be a good example. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Another thing they said, but they showed, they showed tape like early in the game of him and the motion is coming coming from the right and he's looking to the left.

Speaker 2 And so, like, there's little things as far as like command, like we want you to be the commander of the offense. And so,

Speaker 2 like, so much of what they're doing right now is we're trying to make you the guy and we're going to give you every tool to make you the guy.

Speaker 2 And we're going to tell you how you have to carry yourself as the guy. And so,

Speaker 1 you know, I think

Speaker 1 this is going to take a big jump.

Speaker 1 This is why we spend so much time talking about this position, because what works and doesn't work is so complicated and has so many different factors in it and all the stuff you're talking about is what i believe in the quarterback position it's not just about your arm strength can you move around like you really you're a leader of men you're you have to be the most charismatic guy in the team you have to make those guys believe in you for you know 12 months a year and the guys that fail are always the guys that fail that test I remember Brady saying, I remember talking to Brady about this way back when I was covering the Patriots.

Speaker 1 By the way, Brady put the most thought into this out of anybody, but go ahead.

Speaker 2 And he, yeah, and he said to me, the only way I can show my toughness is availability.

Speaker 2 That's the only way I can, at that position, the only way I can, in this tough, in this, this game where everyone's tough, it's like, the only way I can prove my toughness to the guys who are really out there in the trenches is to be available and to be the first one into the huddle and to be the first one up and to be available to them.

Speaker 2 And I think that was sort of the point with like, you have to be the first one to pick yourself up off the ground, too, because no matter how hard you got hit, someone's probably hurting worse than you are out there on that field.

Speaker 2 And like, even like the thing about the motion, right?

Speaker 2 Like, is it going to be like that guy who's coming, that receiver who's coming in motion, right, from your right, and you're looking left, is that guy going to follow you after that happens?

Speaker 2 You know what I mean? Like, or he's, is he going to see that and say, what, what is this kid doing? You know, so it's little stuff like that that I think they're trying to do to empower Caleb. And

Speaker 2 that's really interesting. Yeah.
And so I think like it's, it's just, I think that stuff is really, they're trying to kind of empower him to be the leader there.

Speaker 2 And I even think like the way he handled the

Speaker 2 backlash of the Seth thing,

Speaker 2 I think it was yesterday, he stood up there and he just, he stood in front of the, the, the, the, the, the media and said, like, look, like he, he took, took the bullet for it. He said, look, like.

Speaker 2 When, when I was coming out, me and my dad were looking at everything. My dad, you know, as any parent would, was like, just, we were just investigating all of our avenues.

Speaker 2 Once we came and visited the Bears and we got to know the organization, we felt differently about it. But of course, we looked at the history of it.

Speaker 2 And it was, to me, it was like he could have hid from that. You know what I mean? Like, he could have just said, I'm not talking about it.
It's in the past.

Speaker 2 But the only way to kill that story is to stand up there and answer the question. So I thought that was a pretty good sign for maybe him maturing a little bit and growing into the leadership role.

Speaker 2 For, I mean, what's, I mean, one of the most, I mean, that market for football, like that's one of the more pressure-packed markets in the league.

Speaker 1 Yeah, certainly among the hungriest. Yeah.
If the story's true, admit it's true, and then nobody's going to talk about it anymore. It's funny, though, that a lot of the stuff heading toward that draft

Speaker 1 when people were trying to say what they were concerned about with them, and nobody could fully articulate it.

Speaker 1 And then the way this story blew up over the last month, it's like, it's kind of what we're talking about. We know you have the talent.
There's more to that position than just talent.

Speaker 1 Are you going to figure out that part? And that's it. I mean, even Anthony Edwards was taking shit during this OKC series about people didn't like how he handled the game five loss.

Speaker 1 They didn't like that. He disappeared a little bit in game four.
And it's like, there's just a different spotlight of how you're getting picked apart when you become the guy.

Speaker 1 And that's part of how it goes. It's funny you mentioned the getting yourself up fasting because there's a social media video of all the hits Brady took,

Speaker 1 especially early in his career,

Speaker 1 which were. There's one, I think it's the Colts.
He's running, he's scrambling on the right sideline and just doesn't see somebody. And he just gets like annihilated, like it's a video game.

Speaker 1 And he gets right up like that. But he was always passionate about that, which was what was so scary about the ACL injury.
Remember, because he didn't get up that time. It's like, oh, this is bad.

Speaker 1 He's not getting up.

Speaker 2 You know, sometimes you pick up things on these things, covering them in really stupid ways. And this is one example for me.

Speaker 2 So, you know, when I was, when, when I was covering the Patriots, when I was in the beat, you know, my roommate's one of my best friends from college, and he was coaching.

Speaker 2 He was a limited earnings coach at Northeastern before they dropped football.

Speaker 2 and we were living in the north end and so like he and i would would talk about all these things and i remember him like it was it was awesome like you know when i when i watched football with him like he would actually come and and watch with me when i would like watch the patriots games over again and he said you know what the difference with brady is and i'm like no what would you say it is it's like it's that he lets the plays develop It's like, if you watch other quarterbacks, they get rid of the ball.

Speaker 2 He is so willing to take the hit. And this was before the ACL, right?

Speaker 2 But he is legitimately like watching him. He was saying to me, he's like, he is legitimately giving the receivers an extra second to get open.

Speaker 2 He is giving everything an extra second to develop because he's willing to take a hit that the other quarterback won't. You know, and I thought that was such an interesting piece of insight.

Speaker 2 And I think it matches up with what you're trying to say on Brady. And I think the guys, the guys recognize that too.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Like the receivers recognize that too, the guys who, because that's going to help them out.

Speaker 1 That was the amazing thing about Drake May last year.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 He was always willing to hold the ball for an extra second to the point where we're like, dude, we're going to go three and 14. Like

Speaker 1 maybe just get rid of the ball, but he didn't want to. And I think that speaks to what you were talking about.

Speaker 2 The concussion at the end of the year.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
But also like Rogers last year, I didn't feel like he wanted to keep the ball. I thought he wanted to get rid of it.
I don't think he wanted to take hits last year.

Speaker 1 What's your fifth thing?

Speaker 2 So I was, I had like tush push here, but I'm so freaking sick of talking about that. Yeah, please.

Speaker 2 I'm done with it.

Speaker 1 I did. Well, I will say I did love the Eagles owner getting all aggro about it.

Speaker 1 I like when those guys get aggro in those meetings and he really seemed like he was like challenging the manhood of all the other owners, which was like hilarious how he approached it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like calling the other owners a teenager was was an interesting, interesting strategy to take.

Speaker 2 I think, I actually think the bigger thing to come out of that meeting is the discussion on the play mat playoff format changing.

Speaker 2 Let's fucking go i was hoping you'd bring this up so like i don't think enough people are talking about this um when they first brought it up in the meeting in um in march they had uh they they had probably five or six votes so for people who don't know you need 24.

Speaker 2 well you got to explain what the what the big tweak they wanted to do so they wanted they wanted they wanted they so you still get in the playoffs automatically if you win your division but they want open but the lions proposed open seating more or less it would mean everything like you know know, you're seated purely by record.

Speaker 1 But the genesis of this, explain the Vikings' week 18 thing, because that's where this really starts.

Speaker 2 So, I like, so yes, the Vikings, the Vikings in week 18 were in a war with the Lions. They lose their 14 wins, and now they got to go on the road.

Speaker 1 It's the most violent game of the year, basically. Right.

Speaker 2 And they got to go on the road

Speaker 2 in the wild card round and play a Rams team that rested everybody in week 18.

Speaker 1 And lost, what,

Speaker 1 four more games than the Vikings?

Speaker 2 And, like, I think they had 10, I think they had 10, they were 10 and 7. Yeah, so they were four games worse.

Speaker 2 But I think the nuance to this is

Speaker 2 that people think this is about fairness for the league, and it's not. It's about games in week 17 and week 18 being compelling.
And the Rams are actually the example of why the Rams are what scare.

Speaker 2 What the Rams did scares the league. Because the Rams didn't have nothing to play for in week 18.
If you remember, they could have played to avoid the Vikings.

Speaker 2 Like they could have been the third seed or the fourth seed. Sean McVay makes the conscious decision, it's more important that my guys get the rest than play for the third seed.

Speaker 2 So I'm going to sit everybody down. They lose to the Seahawks.

Speaker 1 I was on this podcast saying I couldn't believe they were playing in this way. How would you want to have like, this is nuts.
You're going to end up playing the Vikings or the Lions? That's crazy.

Speaker 1 Why would you want to do that?

Speaker 2 So that scares the league because it paid off.

Speaker 2 And because now you have a team and and the nfl they're very cognizant what's happening in the nba and they look at each each of the 272 games as pieces of real estate that they can sell so are we making those pieces of real estate as valuable as we possibly can if you have the the format they have now i think is fair in a lot of ways because of the scheduling formula and the way that works but you have these games at the end of the season now, like where it's like, screw it, like we'd rather get the rest.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 how does the 18-game season tie into this?

Speaker 2 And that's what I was going to say is like, this is like, so they're projecting it forward and they're saying, this is going to get worse.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Like it just worked for the Rams. And this now is going to get worse if

Speaker 2 we don't do something about it. And so if they have open seating, like there will be more to play for at the end of the year.
The problem is the scheduling formula.

Speaker 2 In the NFL, you only play 14 teams over the course of a year. Of course, you play your three teams in your division twice, and you only play teams in your conference.

Speaker 2 You only play 11 teams in your conference. So the schedules are so wildly different.
And I use the example of like the NFC East, right?

Speaker 2 Like, so the NFC East plays the NFC North and the AFC West this year. The NFC West plays the two South divisions.

Speaker 2 So, I mean, you could argue an 11-win season by the Eagles is more impressive this year than a 13-win season by the Niners, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 The Niners played eight games against those two South divisions.

Speaker 1 So it's the reason the Niners over under is like three wins higher than it seems like it should have been because their schedule is ridiculous.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And so, like, you had the Rams COO, Kevin Demoff, stood up in this meeting,

Speaker 2 you know, last week and basically said to the room, guys, we need to decide what we're trying to do here. Are we trying to be fair?

Speaker 2 Or are we trying to make the games at the end of the season more compelling?

Speaker 2 And that led to like more big picture talk where I think the scheduling formula is going to come under some scrutiny. Are we doing this right?

Speaker 2 And I think the scheduling, the scheduling formula, I think is mostly fine.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But like, that's the sort of big picture things that they're going to be looking at. I mean,

Speaker 2 was it possible that it would be fair to have

Speaker 2 every like just have open conference and no divisions, right?

Speaker 1 I do not like that.

Speaker 2 And like, just, but, but, but if you hear hear what would the idea, you play, you play every team in your conference. So you have 15 games in conference.

Speaker 2 And then if you're going to an 18-game schedule, you play three games out of conference every year. I like, I don't, I'm not watching.

Speaker 1 So you would basically do two divisions instead of three.

Speaker 1 You play everybody in your division twice. That's 14 games.

Speaker 1 No, no, no, no, no.

Speaker 2 You, you deconstruct the divisions altogether.

Speaker 1 So you have

Speaker 1 a 16-team division. You'd play 15

Speaker 1 divisions.

Speaker 1 I don't know about that.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's one solution, but I like I, but the point is, like, I don't think they're going to do that.

Speaker 2 But the point is, like, I think this is the sort of big picture thinking that's coming out of it.

Speaker 2 Like, I saw, you know, on the way out of the meetings, a team president say to somebody else, you know, hey, I want to be part of the scheduling discussion.

Speaker 2 It's going to be a big picture topic for them over the next couple of years. And

Speaker 2 I think it's going to have way more of an impact than what everybody was focusing on last year with the Eagle, last week with the Eagles. Right.

Speaker 1 Because it could, you know, they could lead to some structural change in the way that all this stuff works so i well think about this last year tampa was 10 and 7 they're the three seed the rams were 10 and 7 they're the four seed the vikings were 14 and three five seed and washington's 12 and five six seed so

Speaker 1 You know, if it's within two wins, I get it because that can be really comes down to, oh, my division was way harder than yours. We had to play the other conference division.

Speaker 1 I think when it gets to like more than four wins, like did they talk about the possibility of you have to be three wins better than the team you're playing in round one to have the home game yeah

Speaker 2 that was one was like do we have a marker where it's like if there's a three-game gap or a two-game gap then like then then then that's a stipulation in there do you like that

Speaker 2 it just feels like too arbitrary for me i don't know i mean there there was another one where it was like you have to be plus 500 if you win your division you have to be

Speaker 1 saying that for 20 years

Speaker 2 yeah you have to be plus 500 to get the automatic seed. Otherwise, you're in the pool with a wild.

Speaker 1 So you have to be nine and eight or

Speaker 1 eight, seven, and two, or whatever it is. You have to have some sort of over 500 record.

Speaker 2 Right. So

Speaker 2 they discussed that, which I, that makes some sense to me, too.

Speaker 2 I just, I, I think, you know, when you're in a league that only plays 17 or 18 games and you're not playing everybody, it's just the records aren't the same. The records don't mean the same thing.

Speaker 2 And so I don't know if there's a really simple way to to take care of it yeah if you go through the previous seasons

Speaker 1 yeah that like so in 2022 tampa was eight and nine

Speaker 2 hosting the 12 and five cowboys in round one that's where it gets stupid and then they beat them right and by the way they won right yeah yeah well the seahawks remember the seahawks in um the the the beast quite game the march on game that's the famous one right right so they beat the saints and i think if i remember right the saints were like 11 and five that year it was like breeze in the prime of his career and they had to go all the way to seattle yeah they were like

Speaker 1 yeah so i if it's 17 game it's 17 game season and it's three wins higher than the other team i kind of like that because then if you're trying to make stakes for week 18

Speaker 1 i think that's one way to potentially do it i don't know if it solves every problem but i thought The fact that the Rams, you made the key point earlier, the Vikings are in this absolute war.

Speaker 1 And then they have to go play the Rams the next week, who have just been on vacation basically for a week.

Speaker 2 And coming off the wildfire thing, and they're playing, and the game was weird in Arizona. Like the Vikings were dealing with all of these strange circumstances.
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 2 And it was like, and, and, and it, but I, again, like, I think that's what scared, what scares the league is like, if that really worked, that means more teams are going to consider it next year.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, especially in 18 games, you could do it for the last two games of the season.

Speaker 2 But even that, like, even this coming year, don't you think some teams are going to look at what the Rams did and and say, like, we need to consider that.

Speaker 2 If we're locked into a playoff spot and we're just playing for, you know, a single, a single spot in the seating,

Speaker 2 like maybe we are better off sitting all of our guys. And if you watch that game, you go back and watch that game, the Rams look like they were shot out of a cannon.

Speaker 2 Like it went, and the Vikings looked like they were deadlegged. So I think, you know, like that's, that, that's what scares the league about it.

Speaker 2 And I think it's, it's something that's going to be part of like the big picture discussion going forward.

Speaker 1 Can you explain to everybody in 40 seconds why we're going to 18 games? Because you know the answer.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's because of money. I don't need 40 seconds to explain that.

Speaker 1 But why would the players agree to it?

Speaker 2 Because it's eventually going to be shoved down their throat. And like, I think for the players, it's as much about like, how do we, how do we get as much as we can for it?

Speaker 2 And I would say like my argument, if I were a player, if I were the union, what I would want is you need to get me to free agency quicker.

Speaker 2 Like you need to, instead of it being four years on rookie contracts, you need to have it be three years.

Speaker 2 Because if you think about it, like the difference between 16 and the difference between 16 and 18 games, right?

Speaker 2 That's eight more games that you've got to make it through to get to free agency over four years, right?

Speaker 1 Playoffs.

Speaker 2 And you're talking about the most violent game, right? Like, so that's a real thing that, you know, if I'm looking at it, I'm a player, I'm like, you got to get me to free agency quicker.

Speaker 2 The problem is in the NFL is that the union is controlled by the older players who, is that going to be a priority for them to get a 22, 23 year old to free agency faster?

Speaker 2 Generally, historically, it hasn't been the priority for them, but I think that that's what you would, if I'm the union, like I think that would be one of the first things I would ask for is you have to get more of my players to free agency faster.

Speaker 2 And maybe

Speaker 2 even like you, you look at franchise tags and those sorts of things. Is there a way we can loosen the reins on those as well?

Speaker 1 So the older players wouldn't want that to happen because they're competing with those people at free agency.

Speaker 1 And then you have a league that 80% of the people, their careers are what, three years or less, four years or less.

Speaker 2 It's the dichotomy of the league.

Speaker 1 So they can't go on strike because you just lose the season and I've lost my earning power for one of the four years, basically. Right, right, right.

Speaker 2 That's exactly it.

Speaker 2 Like that's the dichotomy of it is like the rank and file in the NFL is making less than a million dollars a year and like is probably going to be out of the league within a couple of years.

Speaker 2 So they've got to take every dime they can get while they can get it. And yet the guys who are controlling the negotiation are the 1% of the 1%.

Speaker 1 All right, we're wrapping up.

Speaker 1 So apologies to Jim Merce and Trey Hendrickson's contract, but you do have to give me 25 seconds on Drake May, who's really the only thing I have going for me now and it's the Red Sox co-op room and Anthony.

Speaker 2 I would say the best thing I could say is like the new staff's gotten in there. There was a lot of things broken last year.
Josh's offense is pretty complex.

Speaker 2 He has worked on kind of simplifying some things. He studied the college game a bunch last year to try to make it a little more user-friendly.

Speaker 2 But the best thing I can tell you, the most encouraging thing I can tell you is that

Speaker 2 they have not needed to like game the offense up to make it work for Drake May. He has looked like a professional quarterback in the meeting room and on the practice field at this point.

Speaker 1 And they got him a left tackle who's already sworn to protect him with his life. Game of Thrones, Game of Thrones style, like that lady, what was her

Speaker 1 Brianna or whatever. I can't remember who it was.

Speaker 2 There was somebody who tried to.

Speaker 1 to-lady.

Speaker 2 There was somebody who tried to top it later in the draft, too, who said that they were going to lay their life down for the franchise.

Speaker 2 I don't know if that's going to become a trend now. Like, who can go more braveheart on? Like,

Speaker 1 I loved it.

Speaker 1 I've consumed all the Will Campbell content, and I'm here for him. I love how

Speaker 1 all he wants to do is protect Drake May. That's his job in life.

Speaker 2 If you Google it, there's some really good like LSU weight room content that you'd really like.

Speaker 1 Oh, like I haven't watched it. Come on.
Okay. All right.
Yeah. All right.
No, I'm in. I don't care that his arms are an inch inch short.
I'm all in on Will Campbell. All right.
So you can read it.

Speaker 1 Read Albert on SI Listeners podcast as well. Great to see you.
Thanks for coming up.

Speaker 2 All right. Thanks, Bill.

Speaker 1 All right. That's it for the podcast.
Thanks to House and Mahoney and Albert and Gahal and Eduardo. You can watch this as a video podcast on Spotify.

Speaker 1 You can watch on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel as well. Don't forget, new rewatchable is coming on Monday.
We're doing Out for Justice. The Stephen Seagal Anti-Classic.

Speaker 1 This is an unbelievable movie. I can't wait for you to watch it this weekend.
We will be me and Kyle Brandt coming Monday night for you on that. And then Russell and I on Sunday.
Have a great weekend.

Speaker 1 I will see you on Sunday.

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