The Buddy Hield Game, Indy’s Dangerous, a Clips Collapse, and “Whaddya Do” Teams With Ryen Russillo

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Coming up, it was a game seven weekend.

Speaker 1 Risilla and I are here to talk about all of it. Next, this episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra, a crisp, refreshing beer with only 95 calories.

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Speaker 1 I have a new rewatchables coming for you on Monday. It's a big movie.

Speaker 1 It's a big,

Speaker 1 big movie. That's all I'm telling you.
You've seen it. Monday night, it's going to be on the Ringer Movies YouTube channel.
It's going to be a video podcast on Spotify.

Speaker 1 It might be more than one part, or maybe it'll just be one part. I don't want to spoil it.
Could be one part, could be two.

Speaker 1 Get ready.

Speaker 1 This podcast is going to be back Tuesday and then Thursday.

Speaker 1 And you can follow the clips and videos on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel where we went live tonight after Golden State and Houston with Ryan Rossillo. And it's coming right now.

Speaker 1 First, our friends from Pearl Jib.

Speaker 1 Bill Simmons here with Ryan Rossillo. It's Buddy Healed Day.
Who knew?

Speaker 1 The nephew of the Clay Thompson game, we now have the Buddy Healed game and also an incredible Steph Curry game where he's just getting doubled the entire time.

Speaker 1 But Buddy Hilled, 33 points, 9 for 11 from 3.

Speaker 1 And the Warriors hold off the Houston Rockets, who were a tenacious band of Pit Bulls, just coming and coming and coming. But unfortunately for them, could not make a shot.

Speaker 1 Rossello, what are you going to remember about this game 10 years from now?

Speaker 2 10 years from now, probably not much, but it is not exactly on par with my favorite Steph game of all time in 2019, scoreless in in the first half and then 23 in the third quarter.

Speaker 2 So it goes for over 30 in the second. It's probably my favorite Steph game.

Speaker 2 But yeah,

Speaker 2 he wasn't getting it done. He was making other plays.
Certainly his movement alone opens up other things for other people.

Speaker 2 But when a men Thompson couldn't contest on that three-point to the right side, like the first thought is like, he actually got an open look against a men.

Speaker 2 It actually happened. And then we realized it was a continuation of the calf injury that he had on that layup attempt.

Speaker 2 And so I think if you're a Houston fan, you're probably not going to remember this in 10 years, but at least this week, you're wondering how the game goes if a man is able to just stay in there because it was that was honestly, I think, one of the most offensively challenged series that I've seen from Steph in his career.

Speaker 2 And granted, he's older now, too, but it was just a grind to even get open looks.

Speaker 1 Can I make the case for the Steph Curry performance?

Speaker 1 Can I zag? Is it zag time already?

Speaker 2 Well, you're not comparing it to 19, right?

Speaker 1 No. All right.
Thank you. You know what I liked about it?

Speaker 1 First of all, I think Eme from the 2022 finals was just like, fuck this. I'm not letting this guy beat us.

Speaker 1 Not only am I going to double him when he has the ball and send second guys at him,

Speaker 1 I'm going to double him when he doesn't have the ball. Have you ever seen a guy get guarded with multiple guys when he wasn't anywhere near the ball? Because that's what they were doing.

Speaker 1 They were grabbing him. They were holding him.
They were like double teaming him from back and forth. And they were just like, you're just, you're not going to beat beat us.

Speaker 1 So then it came down to Buddy Healed and Padzemsky for three quarters. Buddy was great.
Pods was, that was a rough Pods game. He played hard, but

Speaker 1 when you think, what did he finish with? He was

Speaker 1 four for 12, one for seven. One from three.
All of those were open.

Speaker 1 But they basically were just like, we're not letting Steph. So Steph figures this out early.

Speaker 1 And you can either try to go hero ball and just launch some crazy threes with a hand in your face or just continue to try to keep making the right plays, swinging the ball, trusting your teammates.

Speaker 1 It was a great trust your teammates' performance. And then, when they finally let up and he saw some daylight, he grabbed it.
And then Jimmy took care of the rest.

Speaker 1 But I really thought like he did everything you had to do in this game. That team, there was one stretch where they had Thompson and Eason out there with Jabari Smith.

Speaker 1 And there was like this three-minute stretch of defense where it was like, oh my God.

Speaker 1 Like it seemed like a miracle just to get a shot off in 24 seconds, but they unfortunately couldn't sustain it and they couldn't make a shot.

Speaker 1 I thought that was such an impressive win by Golden State, though. They were down to five guys plus Looney that you could trust.
Five and a half, five and a third.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Kaminga got out there and

Speaker 2 he had some interesting possessions.

Speaker 2 You know, so if you look at that with Moody, he only played 11 minutes in this game.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, Draymond's 40 minutes and he hit a couple shots early, but you just know offensively, it's not not necessarily something you can rely on. He had two shot clock threes in the second half.

Speaker 2 I think they're both in the fourth quarter. You're like, oh, my God, because there's all these plays where the entire defense is designed to, we want it to end up in the wrong guy's hands.

Speaker 2 And if you're thinking of Houston and Emei's game plan and the players executing it, they actually executed it perfectly. You just don't expect Buddy Heel to go for 23 in the first half.

Speaker 2 So if you don't have that second guy, even Jimmy is going to go a little bit slower.

Speaker 2 Like there's even a few moments with Jimmy before that outburst where you're like Van Vliet got him on a turnover and you're like, man, you've got Van Vliet ISO'd.

Speaker 2 Like, you got to, you got to go with this guy.

Speaker 2 They didn't score a point for four plus minutes until you had that Jimmy layup, then the threes, and then you had the review on the layup after Beale forced the turnover when Van Vliet pushed Butler.

Speaker 2 And that pretty much was the game. But it's incredibly frustrating for a Houston team that probably feels like they did

Speaker 2 a lot of things right tonight. But, you know, they ended up with six made threes.
Three of those were garbage time.

Speaker 2 So over the course of the game being competitive, a a team that averaged 11 threes per game, games one through six, had three. So, technically, they had six in this one.

Speaker 2 But, you know, when you and I were talking this morning, it's almost like Buddy healed, even though less is expected of him, took on the Van Vliet role that we've seen in the last few games, because that was a huge difference.

Speaker 2 We can talk big lineups, rebounding edge, second chance points, points to paint. All these things are real things, but Van Vliet was playing out of his mind for three straight games in the series.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and I think if you're the Warriors, you're just saying to yourself, is that going to happen four times in a row?

Speaker 1 I'm going to do, I wrote down with like four minutes left, the Rockets were three for 14 from three, right as the game had gone south. And the Warriors, how many turnovers did they end up with? Seven.

Speaker 1 They had five turnovers with like four minutes left in the fourth quarter. And Kerr, that's been his passion point.

Speaker 1 Like, if we play defense and we don't turn the ball over, we're always either going to be in the game or we're going to win. And the turnovers drive them crazy.

Speaker 1 And this is a team that can get really sloppy with the ball sometimes. Not today.

Speaker 1 Took care of it.

Speaker 1 That's another thing with the Steph game. Steph had two turnovers.

Speaker 1 How many times did he have two guys on him where he's like throwing the ball behind his head to Draymond or throwing these cross-court passes?

Speaker 1 I don't know. He finished 22, 10, and 7.
He led the team in rebounding. He led the team in assists, had two steals, two blocks.
He led the team in every category except points.

Speaker 1 And had Thompson coming at him. Thompson was hitting a point in the third quarter when it just seemed like he thought he could go to the basket every single time.
Because he could.

Speaker 1 And then he was guarding Steph on the other hand, on the other hand, and shutting him down. And there was this moment where I was like, God damn it.

Speaker 1 Do I have to raise the ceiling of the Amen Thompson building? Do I, do I, I, because I had it set at 15 floors. Do I have to like blow the roofs out and bring it up to 25?

Speaker 1 He is, I thought, I just thought he was such a gem. And I think you're right.
It's an interesting what if for them, if he doesn't hurt his calf, could they have like pulled this off defensively?

Speaker 1 My thing is they just didn't get any offense from anybody other than Thompson. I mean, Shangoon had some around-the-basket points, but everyone else, Jalen Green,

Speaker 1 three for eight in what could be his last Rockets performance. Dylan Brooks, three for nine.
Jabari, one for five. Tari Eason, two for six.
Like they just couldn't get anybody to get hot.

Speaker 1 And then Van Vuit couldn't do it.

Speaker 2 And the double big thing that's been such a huge part of this series where, you know, I think there's a version of how we talk about this and similarities to how we talk about Minnesota and Los Angeles, where it's like running the football.

Speaker 2 Over the course of seven games, if we play big and you play small, it's just going to hurt more. We're going to get extra opportunities.
We're going to beat you on the boards.

Speaker 2 And over the course of a series, like having to do this every other night with us, you're going to pay some sort of tax. And you'd wondered if that's how this series had shifted.

Speaker 2 Because when we talked after game one, I remember thinking, like, remember, they started hacking Adams and they yanked him.

Speaker 2 I was like, I wonder if Emay's talking with his staff after the game game being like we should not have given in to them on that you know maybe it's worth it for us because of our defense to sacrifice whatever we're not getting from adams the free throw line so guess what happened they actually defiantly kept him in when they did it later in the series and it felt like it felt like that was like this real turning point in this series that we're going to stay big we're going to stay in this zone and it doesn't really matter and then eme clearly just didn't like what he had i think the loony minutes probably changed up some of the calculation on that because curb probably felt like he could just trust looney a little bit more Allowed 11 minutes from Looney.

Speaker 1 It felt like he played like 25, he only played 11.

Speaker 2 They were important because they were two, you know, when you trap Steph, like eventually he's going to figure it out.

Speaker 2 And they had two in the first half where Looney was the release on that, and he had a layup and then he had the free throws. That was back-to-back possessions for three points.

Speaker 2 And then they started trapping him in the second half, too. And that was turning into four on three behind him, which doesn't guarantee open shots or anything.
But

Speaker 2 it really just comes down to the shot making. I think that's what's so great about a man.
Like, I'm with you.

Speaker 2 I feel even better about him now going, like, that was actually the only dude with the bonus hands who's like, fuck this.

Speaker 1 Like, I'm not sure. How old is he? Is he 23?

Speaker 2 Let's look it up.

Speaker 1 I don't think. 22, 23?

Speaker 2 20. He just turned 12, 22 in January.
Because remember, those guys are a bit older coming out of

Speaker 2 the pre-draft. God damn.

Speaker 1 Maybe like a year or two. Well, you know, the other thing, it felt like Golden State, like you were talking about the rebounding, because I agreed, like watching,

Speaker 1 watching the game go along. It's like, oh, they're holding their own today.
Houston out rebounded them by 14.

Speaker 1 I mean, it really came down to when you only make three three-point shots in the first 48 minutes of an NBA game and the other team ends up with 18.

Speaker 1 I don't care how many extra rebounds you get. If you're going to be minus 15 on three-pointers, that's too many points.
You know, it's just,

Speaker 1 it becomes math after a while. If one team is going to get 54 points from three and the other team's going to get 18.

Speaker 2 Well, this is the impossible number. They have 14 to three in the offensive rebounding edge.
They only took two more shots.

Speaker 2 And normally that's like a massive turnover. You're like, okay, where's the rest of the math? Like, what do I have to figure? It's only four worst turnovers on the Houston side of it.

Speaker 2 So normally when you're doing something like that, when you look at those Minnesota Lakers box scores at times, you just go, dude, they took at this point in the game when it still matters, they've taken six more shot at 16 more shot attempts is the point I'm trying to make because you just go.

Speaker 2 You know, even if you're not even shooting it that well, that many more attempts, it's just, it's just hard to beat a team that has that many more opportunities.

Speaker 2 And that wasn't even the case, even though it felt like they were beating them up. I also felt like Golden State really battled around the paint on

Speaker 2 the balls where it's like, oh man, they're deep again. They've got a seal.
They've got all these bodies. They're just taller and bigger than them everywhere.
But they were fighting like crazy.

Speaker 1 It was like the Clippers yesterday. Same thing.
Like just so much fight. Oh, no.

Speaker 1 Bad analogy.

Speaker 1 Oh, no, it was the opposite of the Clippers. My bad.
I got my wire screwed up.

Speaker 1 It was the complete opposite of the Clippers. My bad.
Not a lot of fight there for

Speaker 1 not a lot of fighting over screens, protecting the rim,

Speaker 1 grabbing rebounds.

Speaker 1 It's the best of nine, right?

Speaker 1 Game eight. We're going to save Harden.
Let's rest these dudes.

Speaker 1 So, Buddy Healed,

Speaker 1 how many career playoff games do you think he's had? Counting the seven in this series?

Speaker 2 I don't know, 19.

Speaker 1 11. All right.
He's played 11 games in his career. This was easily the best one.

Speaker 2 So, wait, so that's just the series last year with the Sixers where he didn't want to shoot?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's it.

Speaker 1 And I was like, wow, he really replicated the Clay Thompson game. And then I was like, I got to make sure I can't remember the Clay stats from that game.

Speaker 1 41 points, 11 for 18 from three, Clay Thompson in 2016. So, yeah.
Clay, you're safe. You're way over here.

Speaker 1 But I mean, to get that out of him. And I've always kind of liked Buddy Healed.
It's always been one of those, you're always, you know, know, certain guys in the NBA you're glass half full with.

Speaker 1 We're like, oh, it's the right situation. I could really see him thriving.
And it's just never really

Speaker 1 happened in a sustained way for a good team. Then it's, you think, is he just a good stats, bad team guy? And then he just became a bad stats, mediocre team guy.

Speaker 1 And they sign him in the offseason and he has a really good first four weeks with them. It's like, oh, man, he might be able to beat Clayton.

Speaker 1 And then halfway through the year, he's not playing anymore. And then they get this out of him him, and they save him.
And now they live to fight another day.

Speaker 1 I don't, the Minnesota matchup seems pretty intimidating after what we just watched, but

Speaker 1 a lot of pride on the Steve Curry, Draymond Green, and Steph Curry-era, I think.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'll admit throughout this series, you know, even wanting the Steph thing to keep going because I just enjoy Steph.

Speaker 2 You know, granted, they weren't going to get OKC unless they were to advance, right? And OKC advances, but it kept coming back to me.

Speaker 2 And then, even so with Minnesota's options and their size, I just was like, this is a nice little Golden State story. But I mean, come on.
Are you there? Are you going to pick him against Minnesota?

Speaker 1 How healthy do we think Butler can be in a week?

Speaker 1 And how healthy did he look to you today?

Speaker 2 Well, he doesn't have a week.

Speaker 1 No, I know. I assume they're going to lose game one.
They just had, I mean, that game they just played counted as like a game and a half. That's the thing with these playoff games.

Speaker 1 Like if you start doing like, was that just one playoff game? Like, that game we just watched was a game and a half of miles and energy expended. And you know, that was

Speaker 1 challenging everything.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's like the pitch count thing we always talk about.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that was a 145-pitch game by the Warriors just now. And you're asking them to basically throw three days from now and try to throw seven innings again.
So I just assume,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, they're playing in 48 hours, man.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they're actually playing

Speaker 1 48 hours.

Speaker 2 So that might be one of those game one.

Speaker 2 You know, I don't know what what the line is yet here, but I'm sure it just got set.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I really do. I have the series line.
Do you want to guess? Minnesota Golden State.

Speaker 2 Minnesota

Speaker 2 minus 165.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're getting really good at this. One of the things I'm proudest at in life is

Speaker 1 I felt like you were gambling,

Speaker 1 gambling, what's the word, lingual

Speaker 1 when I met you. But now

Speaker 1 I feel like you could move to Vegas for an NBA season and maybe make a run at it.

Speaker 1 Well, I used to be minus 155.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I used to be really, really into it when I was younger.

Speaker 1 Oh, there you go.

Speaker 1 It was dormant.

Speaker 2 It was

Speaker 1 Van Pell beaten out of you.

Speaker 2 No, luckily, I didn't have enough money to ever get into too much trouble, but

Speaker 2 it was definitely something I looked forward to a lot. And then

Speaker 2 once I was at ESPN, it was a thing that you weren't actually supposed to talk about.

Speaker 1 Remember? oh,

Speaker 1 I remember.

Speaker 1 I had a couple phone calls. Yeah,

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 2 So, I don't know how Minnesota, you know, I would have thought they were a healthy favorite in this one, other than maybe the public.

Speaker 1 Yeah, minus 166

Speaker 2 on FanDuel right now.

Speaker 1 But that's factoring in. They're almost definitely going to win game one, I would assume.
They're just going to have

Speaker 1 what's the line in the game.

Speaker 1 Line on the game is

Speaker 1 minus five and a half. That'll go up.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 a couple other, couple other storylines from this game. Draymond, defensively, I know, I know it's a theme over and over again.

Speaker 1 Today, in this game, he was like a sweeper in soccer, or he was like char on hockey.

Speaker 1 He was just under the, under the, in front of the net, just protecting the goalie and just come jumping out from under the basket and swiping down and stripping or protecting the rim or going vertical.

Speaker 1 I thought he was incredible. And they were able to steer the defense around him being able to do that and not really having to guard anybody and just pop out and help and jump in.

Speaker 1 I thought he was awesome and those threes he hit was awesome. That was among the better.

Speaker 1 I get it three years ago. I didn't think he still had a game like that in him.

Speaker 1 Defensively 2022. It felt like he was phasing toward the next phase of his career.

Speaker 2 It's funny when you play really high-level defense and you're just called like a two-way player. And I think there's an argument to be said that he's actually still a one-way player.

Speaker 2 There's not a lot of offense there. I'd say the layups, it's almost in his head a little bit.

Speaker 2 We saw some of it in game six where he had probably a better opportunity to just go at it and then see what happens.

Speaker 1 And then when you start contorting, when you start doing this stuff on the layups, I mean, plenty of guys screw it up trying to play for contact or whatever.

Speaker 2 And then he's always good for a few passes. You're like, where?

Speaker 2 Because

Speaker 2 some of them are, you know, look, he's a great passer.

Speaker 2 He's one of the best passing kind of like hybrid guys of his era, but there's also some passes, I think, as he's gotten a little bit older where it's like, man, you were really forcing that one in there, or he's just like swinging it to guys.

Speaker 2 Yeah. He's like, did you think you had an angle on it? That's that.
So, look, all of that, the offensive side, whatever you get from him is a plus. He wasn't on the ball

Speaker 2 in this game tonight much at all. There wasn't a lot of playmaking Draymond stuff.

Speaker 2 If anything, because it always felt like they were playing five against four when Draymond had the ball, like there just wasn't a lot of room for for him to find some of the stuff that he maybe would normally do in a regular season game.

Speaker 2 But defensively, to have to go up against and just, look, we know he's a tough guy. We know he's strong as hell.

Speaker 2 I think there's probably a Shingoon conversation if he's a little bit more polished and a little bit more aggressive, even though he's incredibly skilled.

Speaker 2 I felt like tonight's a disappointing Shingoon game because there's so many possessions where you're like, dude, you had just, all you had to do was be big and go to the rim.

Speaker 1 You had pitch pieces, I guess you'd switch. Yeah, like just

Speaker 1 go.

Speaker 2 For Draymond to hold up when he's battling Adams and Shingoon as much as he was for those minutes and him not getting a foul trouble tonight was a huge part of it because then Steve didn't, I don't know why I called him Steve, but why Kerr didn't have to kind of manage his minutes at all.

Speaker 1 You know, the ref, one of the last Laker games, the ref did the challenge and he was giving the verdict on the challenge and he said LeBron instead of James.

Speaker 1 And I thought, I just thought that was really funny. I caught it.
He was like, LeBron had position. Say how we're first name, or is this like a Beyoncé thing now?

Speaker 2 Poor Mark Davis did a Christian Brown one. He called him Christian Braun.

Speaker 1 If you're him, you got

Speaker 2 to be thinking, like, man, I've been in the league a few years. Like, come on.

Speaker 1 A couple other notes from this game. Steph is now 5-0 in playoff series against Houston.
Now, that counts the 2016 one where he got hurt and they won anyway.

Speaker 1 But they still have not beaten a team with Steph Curry.

Speaker 2 That's what his gravity is like, though, even if he's not playing. He's just in the building.

Speaker 1 Are we going to have a gravity combo?

Speaker 1 Just even

Speaker 1 street clothes gravity?

Speaker 2 Well, I think it's at least worth mentioning because

Speaker 2 when I think of like we get to these points of the playoffs where if you don't like somebody and you have a platform, there's a really good chance that the guy you don't like gets eliminated and then you just get to say that the guy sucks.

Speaker 2 It's almost this video game where there's just different tiers of like all you're trying to navigate is a way to get to saying the guy you don't like sucks.

Speaker 2 And the chances, like the odds are in your favor that you'll get to say it about certain players.

Speaker 2 And my contention has always been like some players are really great and they're great in elimination games and they still lose.

Speaker 2 And when Steph doesn't have any points up until the very end of the first half, I'm watching it going, well, this is going to turn into one of those moments where when everything that's happening offensively, you know, there's a few possessions where he just doesn't have it on cuts, but they're like the buddy healed left side, first half, three, and Van Gundy called it out.

Speaker 2 They ran Steph through. Everybody shifted to the right side and then buddy's fine.
And then there's a Draymond drive on the left side where they run Steph through everything.

Speaker 2 Everybody, it's like a wave of people just going to his side.

Speaker 2 So, by him just being active, because I think there's a lot of stars in those spots, especially a little bit older, are just so frustrated. They're not going to cut.

Speaker 2 You know, they're probably going to put up a few more shots just to say, at least I took a few. And he really wouldn't even take the bad shots if he felt like it wasn't a good look.

Speaker 1 So you're coming around. I thought that was,

Speaker 1 you're on my side now. I feel like I won you over.

Speaker 1 Well, I thought that was a good step game. I was ready to zag the whole time, even in halftime when he had three points.
I was like, you know what? I'm going to figure out how to do this.

Speaker 2 I guess I don't feel like you should have to defend the guy anymore at 37 years old, and I'm not picking them in the next round. So, this has been kind of nice.

Speaker 1 Oh, they're like getting off. Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't think they're going to be. Woman to help you.
Women help you with their bags as you get off the bandwagon.

Speaker 1 It's like 1923. You're just getting off the train.

Speaker 2 When I asked you, did you pick or did you just give me the options?

Speaker 1 I'll give you a thought in a second.

Speaker 1 Can we talk about Steve Kerr for a second? Because I thought he coached an awesome game today.

Speaker 1 What did you like? I rarely do this because this is the old Hubie Brown thing about Hubie Brown loved every timeout.

Speaker 1 I thought Kerr called like three or four of the best timeouts of the playoffs. He felt, and I only, we've talked about this in the past.

Speaker 1 There's only a couple coaches that really understand how to protect the lead where it's like, all right, we are up between eight and 15 points for an hour here. I can't let them get a run.

Speaker 1 I can't let the crowd get into it. I feel something bad happening.
Time out right now. And he did it like every time I felt like, oh, man, I think the wheels are about to come off.

Speaker 1 He was just like, I've had enough. He had that one play when they went zone in the fourth quarter and Van Gundy called it out.

Speaker 1 And he was like, he needs to get Jimmy Butler back in the game to break this zone. And there was like 10 seconds up in the shot clock.
And Kurt's like, time out.

Speaker 1 I don't, wait, I don't like the possession we're about to have. Let me, let me preempt this.

Speaker 1 To know, not know what you're getting from any of your bench guys, right? Think about the bench. It was other than Looney, just a complete no-show from everybody.

Speaker 1 He knows he has to play Butler and Curry big minutes. He obviously talked about that, but I think they went 44 and 45 for minutes.

Speaker 1 And it's like, how can I takes Curry out with like a minute before the end of the quarter just to kind of buy in that little break?

Speaker 1 I just thought he did a really good job.

Speaker 2 So he called one at 9:42 when he didn't like it immediately and he wanted to get Butler back in the game. And I love that timeout because I do think, especially in this game where it was low scoring,

Speaker 2 you know, there have been games in the past where you're watching a coach and he wants to make the substitution and then they don't have a stoppage. He doesn't want to burn the timeout.

Speaker 2 And you're like, okay, well, what's more valuable? This timeout, which again, I'd always want to have one in my back pocket, especially on an inbound in a close game.

Speaker 2 But there's also some math of, okay, we just went three possessions on offense without this guy. And in game six, where Detroit beat New York,

Speaker 2 Brunson left the game, and then he went to go to the scores table at about two minutes left.

Speaker 1 Game five.

Speaker 2 Yeah, excuse me, game five, right, because they eliminated him in six. So game five, when Detroit won,

Speaker 2 and granted, they were dealing with a Brunson situation that isn't normal. But Tibbs is thinking clearly he's going to get some kind of stoppage in there.

Speaker 2 And when I was watching it, I'm like, you just gave up multiple offensive possessions with him at the scores table because you didn't want to call the timeout to get the guy in there.

Speaker 2 And really, when you think of the game and how close it was and who Brunson is.

Speaker 1 The two minutes.

Speaker 2 Yeah. So it doesn't happen very often, but I'm with you, especially on that one at 9:42.

Speaker 1 I have one other big storyline from this game.

Speaker 2 Is it Houston or is it Golden State?

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Here's the other big storyline: Houston lost in round one.

Speaker 1 And now I feel like if they won, the Giannis trade becomes a little bit harder as a destination because it's like, yo, we won. Let's let's follow the motto of OKC and some of these other teams.

Speaker 1 Now it's like, hey, we lost in a game seven. We have a chance to get Giannis.

Speaker 1 What's it going to? Oh, it's going to be Shangun and

Speaker 1 I don't know, know, Jabari and

Speaker 1 Jalen Green. Pick three, Eason, Jalen Green.

Speaker 1 Three of those guys and a bunch of picks for Giannis. Like, let's go.
Can we, we'll, we'll re-sign Bambi for the extra year. We'll keep Brooks.
We'll have Giannis. We'll have, we'll have Thompson.

Speaker 1 We'll still have some picks and some maneuverability and let's overpay. And they have the best chance to overpay and put Giannis in a situation.

Speaker 1 But as we talked about a week ago, they also have the best chance to give Milwaukee guys back because Milwaukee can't really tank because they're under picks.

Speaker 1 So they could at least give them a bunch of players to be like, yeah, you guys are getting a ton of assets here. Who knows? Like, let's say it's Shangoon, Tari Eason, and Jabari.

Speaker 1 Like, that's a pretty good haul with all the picks for Giannis. So I felt like if they lost this game, maybe the Giannis thing becomes way more realistic.

Speaker 2 Do you, do you think I'm right?

Speaker 2 Well, I think the way it's discussed, I would say you're right. I resist all of that, though.

Speaker 2 I think that's the dumbest shit you can do when you start planning based on, like, hey, we won a first-round matchup, but we lost in the second round.

Speaker 2 So, if we had lost in the first round, we would approach our team entirely differently. And that's you and I agree.

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to get

Speaker 1 that on the history of how the NBA has gone, where people can fool themselves because they won a round to be like, oh, we're closer than we were. And

Speaker 1 I think they should try to get Giannis. And if they can keep Thompson out of the deal,

Speaker 1 just do it.

Speaker 2 I would try to figure out a way to move some of these younger pieces because you have so many. There's younger guys that have value that don't even play.

Speaker 2 And I think the damning part of this series is the Jalen Green conversation.

Speaker 1 He's just. Is there a conversation anywhere?

Speaker 2 Well, I think there's a real conversation because the highs, whether it was the end of two years ago, which I always call the Gerald Green season,

Speaker 2 when Shingoon was out, he was so good. I felt like he turned a corner.
I felt like the light was kind of going off with him in some of his playmaking. And then, you know, he's had his moments.

Speaker 2 We know what he can do scoring-wise. But, you know, the game when he had 38, it's like, see, you know, everything's fine.
Everything's fine. Well, that was the aberration.

Speaker 2 I mean, he had seven, nine, eight, eleven, twelve, and eight in the other six games. That's that's not just like, hey, he's young and and I know this is early.

Speaker 2 And yes, he is young and all this stuff, but like a men clearly needs to be the priority for him around whatever they do with Van Bleet and whatever they do with Brooks.

Speaker 2 So if Green is taking away shot opportunities from Amen next season, that's getting in the way of his development because, you know, again, Amen isn't even like fully formed.

Speaker 2 And just some of his reads, his aggression, his confidence, and Jalen's just kind of this wildcard guy who drives and the decisions aren't great. And,

Speaker 2 you know, if they had made it, I would have thought all of these things, by the way, if they had won this series. If they had made it,

Speaker 2 to your point, you wonder if they go, okay, hey, we took a step forward as an organization and, you know, a couple of things break our way or whatever.

Speaker 2 I would be really, really aggressive about adding to whoever you're keeping here and trying to get out there in the market.

Speaker 2 Cause we're talking about Giannis, who's, you know, never lower than third best in the world in the conversation. I mean, who, you know, and you wouldn't do a men for him.

Speaker 2 You would say, hey, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 He's fourth in the world. No, I mean,

Speaker 2 Thompson's off the table.

Speaker 1 He's off the table. I'm not discussing him.
Okay.

Speaker 2 So if it's a bidding war, because if we're doing any kind of Giannis conversation.

Speaker 1 He's not, you can't put Thompson in the deal. Like at that point, I'm, and if I'm Milwaukee, I'm saying the whole summer, Thompson has to be in the deal.

Speaker 1 Well, like we're going to do that dance back and forth forever. But ultimately, if I'm Houston, I'm like, look, you're not getting him.
We have a ton of picks. We have all these other guys.

Speaker 1 So let's figure this out.

Speaker 1 I think with the Jalen piece, the part that's disappointing to me, because what I really liked about him when he had that moment that you talked about from two years ago, was it wasn't just the scoring.

Speaker 1 Like I felt like he was starting to create shots for other guys. Guess how many assists he had from game four, game five, game six, game seven, four games.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I have it up in front of me right now.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 1 Well, for the audience, he had six assists total in four games. So he's turned into this guy that he's either looking for his own shot or he's not doing anything for anybody else.
And

Speaker 1 I feel like he's gone backward with that. The defense certainly isn't on the par with Thompson and Neeson and Jabari, who I think are just way, way better than him.

Speaker 1 And I don't know what he is. Like, would you trade for him? Let's say you're like,

Speaker 1 let's say you're a lottery team right now. And it's like, oh, we can get Jalen Green.
Pretty good contract. 33 million next year.

Speaker 1 What's he worth? Is he worth a top five pick in this draft?

Speaker 1 I would say no.

Speaker 2 No, because you would still hope for like the unknown of hitting on somebody to cost control of the whole thing.

Speaker 2 Whereas you as a team, like I wonder if Miami, but what would Miami be able to offer that would make sense?

Speaker 2 You know, is there some three-team thing where Miami goes, you know, we'll bring him in here and we're in transition anyway, and we still think he's a really talented guy because I think we have seen that talent.

Speaker 2 But this is a really,

Speaker 2 and if you're doing local Houston radio this week,

Speaker 2 you know, it's a bummer of a Jalen Green conversation because now he's just in a men's way.

Speaker 2 If you bring him back next year, he's just in his way.

Speaker 1 If you were Houston, like if we were running Houston,

Speaker 1 we would keep Thompson and Deason,

Speaker 1 and we would try to do Shangoon with Jalen Green

Speaker 1 with Jabari, right? Those three plus picks. We'll take one of your bad contracts back with Giannis

Speaker 1 and let's try to figure it out. And now I get to keep Eason and I get to keep Thompson and I get to put them with Giannis.
I bring Van Booth back. I have Brooks back.
And now my team's better.

Speaker 1 And I've usually, I like Jabari as an asset. I think he's misused on this team.
I just think they decide they stick him in the corner. They don't run plays for him.
I think he plays hard.

Speaker 1 I like him defensively. I think he could be a stretch five on the right team.
I actually, that's somebody I would target this summer if I was somebody else.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I still hold out some hope for him, but he also showed that the handle thing is a real problem in this series.

Speaker 2 You know, and Steph had a defensive play against him on the left side on the baseline where Jabari's like, all right, I'm ready to start going to work. And like, Steph knew he couldn't dribble.

Speaker 2 So he just stayed straight up with him and he held up great against him. And he had another play, I think it was in game six, where he like went to kind of create on his own.

Speaker 2 I was like, damn it, you know, because I, I really like him and I'm with you.

Speaker 2 I think there's a role for him where he's playing 30 plus minutes a night and he's hitting threes and he's playing really good defense and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 Even though Steph got him on a switch, she was so happy to get him on a switch and not have it be a men on that layup in the second half.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 the only thing I would say about the Amen thing is if it's a bidding war, which I don't know why it would be that, right?

Speaker 2 Giannis has to go to them and say, I'm good, but then also feel free to send me anywhere.

Speaker 2 That doesn't really seem to be the way any of this stuff works for stars, or it's not just open for Milwaukee to decide where they want to send him.

Speaker 2 So if Houston's not necessarily bidding against anybody and they put together a sexy package, then you're right. They shouldn't have to throw him in there.

Speaker 2 But if it's somehow turned into there's four or five teams involved in this,

Speaker 2 you know, then it becomes the kind of conversation of like, really, you wouldn't include men in there for somebody who's as good as Giannis.

Speaker 1 But again, they have the advantage, though, because, again, Milwaukee needs to get players back so they can compete next year, unless they just decide their picks at some cost for a year.

Speaker 1 And Houston's really the only team, other than maybe the Knicks, that could actually give them players that could still make them good because they have the Doc situation too, where Doc's got two years left in his deal.

Speaker 1 He's never wanted to be in a rebuilding situation ever. So he's not going to be happy.
He's not going to be psyched to just

Speaker 1 throw in the towel.

Speaker 1 Do you think this ultimately was a win for Houston in this playoffs?

Speaker 1 Would you say it's a W to go to seven against Golden State and then you lose in seven because your offense, which was the thing everybody was pointing at this entire season as the thing that was going to sink you in the end?

Speaker 1 And then that's exactly what happened in the end?

Speaker 2 If you label it just as the two losing to the seven, I think you're losing sight of how ridiculous the Western playoffs were.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 So other years, you'd be like, what a huge disappointment because they were on the cusp of it. They fell apart a little bit at the end of the season because they were one of these great stories.

Speaker 2 And for two years now, they've been one of our favorite teams to watch because all these guys and wondering how it's all going to shake out. I still feel like the entire season is a positive.

Speaker 2 I know it hurts right now, but it's positive.

Speaker 1 And you lost the staff.

Speaker 2 You lost the staff. You lost the Warriors.
The history is terrible, as you mentioned now,

Speaker 2 with this group, this Warriors group going against this franchise. So.

Speaker 2 You know, even though it's the two, I would throw the 2-7 part of this out because all of these teams, 2-7, were really close.

Speaker 1 Well, also, the Warriors lose that stupid Spurs game, which comes back to haunt them because now Minnesota is the sixth seed with home court because they lost that ridiculous Harrison-Barnes game where they were trying.

Speaker 1 And the Spurs were just like, our season's kind of sucked. Wemby's been gone for two months.
This will make our season if we can somehow stick it to you guys in this game.

Speaker 1 Chris Paul Barnes, and they stick it to him, and now they don't have home court.

Speaker 1 But I will say, I'm not positive how much that matters for this particular Warriors team because we've seen them stink at home and we've seen them win on the road.

Speaker 2 So the Game Seven stuff is crazy, too. Like NBA history, we grew up with that.
80 plus percent chance of winning at home. And now is it nine of the last 13 road teams have won?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's absurd. You know who didn't win yesterday? It was the Clippers.

Speaker 2 Oh, wait. So, yeah,

Speaker 2 it might be nine of the last 14.

Speaker 1 The Clippers tried to keep it old school, the way you used to remember the Game Sevens. Yeah, I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Golden State, Minnesota. I think it's a really, really, really tall task for Golden State when you consider that Kaminga.
Now, I don't, do we see Kaminga again if it's not garbage time?

Speaker 1 I'm going to say no. He was so bad in that.
Hey, not to defend Kaminga, but I think Kerr probably broke his confidence completely.

Speaker 1 And I don't know what they were expecting was going to happen if you're throwing him in.

Speaker 1 Moody's been up and down. Post has been up and down.
Peyton, who missed the game today,

Speaker 1 which I forgot to mention, might have helped the Warriors because Houston crafts this defense thinking we're just going to double step everywhere and make these other guys beat us.

Speaker 1 And then all of a sudden, Buddy Hilda is in that Peyton spot playing big minutes who can actually shoot. Maybe Peyton doesn't make a couple of those.

Speaker 1 Oh, by the way, I think you're right.

Speaker 2 I think you're right because I think that's why we didn't see Quentin Post a lot because even though the idea of him is a stretch five to try to pull one of those bigs away, I think Houston was thrilled that every time Quentin Post ended up taking a three in a playoff series.

Speaker 2 But almost all of these were high-leverage moments. And when you factored in when he was at the rim for rim protection, you know, a men's like,

Speaker 1 this is unbelievable.

Speaker 2 I think Post still doesn't know what a men did on him on that drive a couple games ago. So I think Peyton was probably one of those guys who the ball ended up in his hands a little bit too much.

Speaker 2 Post was one of those guys. So now they weren't really even options tonight.
And by the way, I know that in the regular season series, Golden State has the 3-1 advantage.

Speaker 2 Last time they played, double-checking it, was January 15th.

Speaker 2 I feel like Minnesota closed is the healthiest version of themselves and was still just a weird team because three of the games were in December.

Speaker 1 Can I intervene with you once? I got to stage an intervention. I don't think you can look at the regular season matchups anymore.

Speaker 1 I think it's a 95% chance nobody on both teams played in any of the games. I've just,

Speaker 1 I feel like I want the five hours of my life back where I've looked at different matchups and be like, oh, Halberton didn't play that game. Ah, no, Mitchell that game.

Speaker 1 It's like there's, you're just learning nothing. It's not like it used to be even five years ago.
You're like, oh, yeah, that February game when they all played and they won 138 to 130.

Speaker 1 There's never a game where everybody played anymore.

Speaker 1 Listen, we talked before the playoffs started about how Minnesota was

Speaker 1 a long shot that we didn't totally understand because there was a path for them, right?

Speaker 1 Their path was beating the Lakers, getting home court in the round two against Golden State, and then just basically being toe-to-toe and unafraid against OKC.

Speaker 1 I think Minnesota should win this series.

Speaker 1 And I think Golden State, I continue to think they're a guy and a half short. They're not even a guy short.
They're like a guy and a half short. And you're going to need

Speaker 1 eight guys against this Minnesota team because they're deep. They have different lineups.
They have size. They can go small.
You have the Edwards piece where he's just relentless on both ends.

Speaker 1 And I think Minnesota should be more of a favorite. I would have had this at minus 200.
I think the Warriors are getting a lot of respect in this. I think Minnesota is a good team.

Speaker 2 You know, what's really funny is everyone from Minnesota has played in this.

Speaker 1 Has what?

Speaker 2 Played in the four regular season games.

Speaker 1 Is that true? You just looked that up.

Speaker 1 I knew it was going to happen because you're right. You're doing it.

Speaker 1 So there it is. There's the 5%.

Speaker 2 But see, there's just a lot of times, whether it's who played, because Draymond missed a couple.

Speaker 2 So Golden State has a 3-1 edge, but I don't know that you can look, and this is the thing I always struggle with every single year: is so you're watching Golden State, and they have this great closing stretch.

Speaker 2 Okay. Houston felt like they competed throughout the entire year, so those felt real, like closing, like a closing month.
If you'll give me a month, yeah. The Clippers felt like a real closing month.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, does that mean that that was all misleading? Because Denver went into it as the worst defensive team in the playoffs.

Speaker 2 The Timberwolves closing the way they closed felt real. That's why I picked them.
And also just because I felt like, how is no one picking them?

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 2 this isn't that daunting to go up against Los Angeles.

Speaker 1 And well, they, did you know LeBron was going to sprain his MCO near the end there?

Speaker 2 I didn't know that.

Speaker 1 Who knows? That last seven minutes of that game five.

Speaker 2 This isn't even a LeBron thing.

Speaker 2 We're getting updates on injuries. We're like, hey, the normal timeframe for this Michael Porter Jr.
shoulder thing would be four to five weeks. He looked great in game seven.

Speaker 1 You're right. This is a new legendary.

Speaker 1 Normally, he'd be out 10 days, but he's going to get through it. They did it with Darren Harlan today.

Speaker 2 They did it with Austin Reeves. They did it with LeBron.
So LeBron's not the only one. We've got like a first team of he would have been out.
Can I?

Speaker 1 I'd like to raise my hand on this one. Please do.
Everybody's hurt in the playoffs. Everybody has injuries, right? Like the Celtex are starting their series tomorrow.
Drew's going to play.

Speaker 1 He has a hamstring. They probably rest him two more weeks.
Tatum hurt his wrist. If it's December, they're probably sitting him for two weeks.
Jalen's got the knee. Like, it's May.

Speaker 1 I would expect people to get hurt. I'm sure Steph has like two injuries that we probably don't even know about.
Steph's. All these guys are fucking banged up.
Steph had that crazy thumb thing.

Speaker 2 It looks like footage from some sort of like pharmaceutical ad during the commercials, or you just go, if you're experiencing growth on your right pump.

Speaker 1 He gets stung by a stingray in Cabo.

Speaker 2 Although I'm Chris Finch watching the tape of this series, being like, Are we also not going to get called for anything off the ball with Steph like this series?

Speaker 2 When they called the off-ball on Shingoon, Kerr, he may just run that on a loop and they'll have like a celebratory dinner. Just be like, let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Speaker 2 It was only round one, but I think we should all get together as an organization, cake and champagne, that there was actually a foul called on Steph at some point in this series.

Speaker 1 Because, you know, he...

Speaker 2 It was unit's going to be one of the most

Speaker 2 disrespectful star whistles. And I know the off-the-ball stuff is just never police the same way.
I just thought at some point the rest might be like, let's call one of these early to see if they

Speaker 1 were allowed to bear hug somebody off the ball. There was one.

Speaker 1 It's happening now regularly,

Speaker 1 or at least in that last series, it did. They're just bear hugging them.

Speaker 2 If you're wrestling with your younger brother and he's just weaker than you, unless it sucks and he's just Kyle Long and you're Chris Long, but

Speaker 2 you hold your brother's arms out and you're like, why are you, you know, not necessarily making him hit himself in the face, but you're just holding his arms and there's nothing he can do and the wrist control and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 There was one play where Van Fleet had both of Steph's wrists

Speaker 1 as he was trying to like get off of some sort of screen.

Speaker 2 They were setting off the ball and he was holding both of his arms.

Speaker 1 If you're defending somebody the same way you would hold back one of your buddies from trying to take a swing at the bouncer at two in the morning, that's probably a foul.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm glad they won so that it doesn't sound like it's making excuses, but they got away with it.

Speaker 1 It was smart. They got away with what they wanted to get away with.

Speaker 2 If Minnesota can get away with that, but they also have one of the least respected stars, whistle-wise, in Ant, but it's for different reasons because Ant plays to avoid, doesn't play to contact.

Speaker 2 Like Luca plays to contact. Some of these guys are really smart, like knowing Brunson, hey, if I just play into the contact, like it's going to go my way.

Speaker 2 Ant is so dynamic that he's avoiding everybody. And everybody's just in awe of his athleticism.

Speaker 2 And I think a lot of the stuff with Steph is he's not going to get the foul calls because they're not just traditional drives towards the hoop.

Speaker 2 Granted, if he's fouled on a three-point attempt, that's different. But the off-the-ball stuff with him in a playoff series and good for the defense for getting away with it.

Speaker 2 But when you really lock into it and watch it for a few possessions, you just go, dude, I can't believe somebody wouldn't want to retire.

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 1 this is what I think. Or why he's going to punch somebody.

Speaker 1 You know what's crazy? So you get Minnesota to Golden State. That's a great series for the league, right? Curry versus Edwards.
I think both of those teams are really fun to watch. I did not.

Speaker 1 Even Genzo Pojemski.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 I didn't think Houston was very fun to watch, just for the record. Not bummed out

Speaker 1 to not get them for the next two weeks. I was pretty much done with Houston Rockets basketball games.
No offense to their fans. Wasn't exactly a great hang.
It's like, oh, cool.

Speaker 1 It's 74, 72 with five minutes left.

Speaker 1 Minnesota Golden State is a great series, and yet

Speaker 1 it's not even one of the two best series that we have left from like a big storyline basketball standpoint, because that Indiana-Cleveland series, and we've been talking about Indiana for weeks now, and the people just haven't been on it.

Speaker 2 No, you've been on it more. I know that I'm labeled as more dismissive, but today was tremendous.
So go ahead.

Speaker 1 Well, that so Cleveland was minus 500

Speaker 1 in the series? In the series. So you bet the Pacers.

Speaker 1 I have multiple Pacer bets. I did the Pacers plus two and a half half for the games.
That'll go like six or seven. I did Pacers in six was 10 to 1.

Speaker 1 I bet them today.

Speaker 1 I was just like, especially when no Garland, it's like, these teams are even. I looked up the last 50 games, Rasillo.
Cleveland was 35 and 15 in the last 50 games. And the Pacers were 34 and 16.

Speaker 1 And if you look at the net rating, the Cavs were like 7.7.

Speaker 1 And the Pacers were like 5.1. I think they're pretty even teams.
And you saw it today.

Speaker 1 Like when the Pacers, when they can play the pace they want to play and they suck you into it and teams get sucked into it and they can't help it.

Speaker 1 And once we're doing this, they're like, they're happy. They're in.
They were getting the matchups they wanted. I think they can play with that team.
Like, I wasn't surprised they won today.

Speaker 1 I think it's going to be a long series. And I actually think it's probably the best basketball series of the four.
Just for like, I don't know what's going to happen. The styles are great.

Speaker 1 It's a styles make fights. It's a great series.
And I thought that first game was awesome.

Speaker 2 today was awesome that was an awesome basketball game okay now i'm gonna i'm not gonna you guys you here but there's something with the gambling world that i actually get annoyed with did you pick the pacers to just win the series though

Speaker 1 i i mean i bet them to win in six but you you bet them with the payout at 10 to 1. i thought that would have been so like this if i had gone to my head

Speaker 1 I would have probably said Cavs in seven. Right.
If I had to point that out

Speaker 1 is but I do see Pacers come in in seven. Sure.
I just feel like it's a 50-50 series, is my point. It's not a minus 500 favorite series, right?

Speaker 2 But what happens if you pick the upset, but you put a ticket on a five-to-one payout or a 10-to-1 payout, then I've noticed, I don't know if it's you, but guys that I follow that are really into gambling will be like, well, you know, I picked them.

Speaker 2 And it's like, no, you picked the odds. You picked the value.
Fair.

Speaker 1 You didn't pick it straight.

Speaker 1 Here's where I took a loss. I picked the Clippers against Denver.

Speaker 1 And I had Clippers stuff

Speaker 1 multiple places. And

Speaker 1 I know we're going to talk about that in a second, but that was one where I was like, I think the Clippers will win this series.

Speaker 1 This Pacers, Pacers' Cavs is more, I think either team can win this series. And I think it's a 50-50 series.
I felt that going in. And now that they won game one,

Speaker 1 it hasn't changed. I don't think it's 60-40 now.
I just think either team can win. And the Garland thing is a big deal because they needed his three-point shooting.
You can see it today.

Speaker 1 I think they were like 8 for 39 from 3.

Speaker 1 You know, it was a lot of Ty Jerome. Ty Jerome, 20 minutes, fantastic.
30 minutes. Now we're pushing it a tiny bit.

Speaker 2 We were talking about what's real, right? As teams close out. After the all-star break, before, let me just do it this way.
Before the all-star break, the Pacers were 21st in defense in the NBA.

Speaker 2 After the all-star break, they were eighth. So the thing about them that always bothered me against another talented team was you're just going to be able to score against them whenever you want to.

Speaker 2 And last year's playoff run, that was still true.

Speaker 2 There were injuries against the teams they faced. We've covered all of this stuff.
But if you want to look at a team where you go, hey, something's a little different there.

Speaker 2 Now, I don't know if the Cleveland closing numbers for that team are as relevant because they were at such a ridiculous pace through so much of the season.

Speaker 2 They knew they weren't going to lose the one seed.

Speaker 2 I felt like a lot of the Cleveland games I watched, like, I don't know, maybe they're still too new to feel like they're taking the foot off the gas, but it felt like that might have been a misleading closing part of it.

Speaker 2 But that Pacers defensive thing is is real. And I wondered also, too, like in the series against Milwaukee, I'm like, Carlisle is really going to play 10 or 11 guys.

Speaker 2 I think he put Ben Shepard in the game as the 11th guy in the first quarter of a playoff game.

Speaker 1 You know, that's my all-time pet peeve.

Speaker 2 Who does that? And yet he played a ton of guys again today. So there's a lot of stuff that I really like from the Pacers today.

Speaker 2 And the Garland part of it's totally true because as much as we both love Ty Jerome, he can't be taking 20 shots in a playoff game.

Speaker 1 In 29 minutes. And also,

Speaker 1 it hurts the calibration of the team, too, because now you don't have him coming off the bench in the same way to swing a game because he's just out there playing most of the game.

Speaker 1 I will say this: if Garland's not going to be 100% healthy in this series, I actually think Indiana is going to win. But it seems like that injury, like whatever, they're being careful with it.

Speaker 1 And it seems like he's going to be able to play with it and not be completely compromised.

Speaker 2 But you could argue three-point variance in this one, too. 19 of 36 for the Pacers, 9 of 38 for the Cavs.

Speaker 2 The alarming part about the film, if you were going to go back and watch this, the Pacers' shots were open the majority of this game. And part of that's Halliburton's brilliance.

Speaker 1 Like, I know people,

Speaker 2 he's a funny one, too, because it's like, man, when he is really rolling, do you realize how special he is at breaking the paint, getting past the first defender?

Speaker 2 Then the help defender thinks that maybe he's giving up on his drive and then it's too late and he's already by you, but people are collapsing. He's finding open shooters all over the place.

Speaker 2 I think he could have attacked even more if he wanted to today.

Speaker 1 By the way, he had 22 and 13, and I think he leads the league for me. And when I watch a Pacers game, I'm always like, just go buy him.
Just go buy him.

Speaker 1 You find yourself saying that with him constantly. Just go buy him.
You know,

Speaker 2 a lot of open looks

Speaker 2 because you could tell when Cleveland cranked up its intensity and Atkinson did the in-game interview, he was almost sitting there like a fan going, this is awesome, isn't it?

Speaker 2 But he also felt better because Mitchell was just driving at will, which I think there's going to be a a lot of that in there. Like Miles Turner being pulled away is a problem.

Speaker 2 They don't have any depth behind that against the two bigs for Cleveland, although Atkinson did separate those guys the way he normally would. But I was really, really impressed with the Pacers.

Speaker 2 And I don't know if it's just the three-point shooting. I don't know if it's that even though the Pacers were better than Milwaukee, this might have been a wake-up call for the Caspian.

Speaker 2 Like that Heat Series was as about as garbage a series as you're ever going to see in the playoffs. Do you know that was the highest point differential ever in a four-game sweep?

Speaker 1 Really?

Speaker 2 That was the biggest point differential four-game sweep in NBA history. That's how disgusting that first-round series was against Miami.

Speaker 2 So you've got to wonder if Cleveland had a moment where, like, holy shit.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you know what, though? We both watched the whole game. I thought Cleveland played hard.

Speaker 1 The Pacers came out. I've seen them do that where they, it, it.
They just put you on your heels. They turn you on track me and you get excited because it's the first game of the series.

Speaker 1 Like, all right, let's run let's go and it's like that's what exactly what they want you to do cavs tried to start slowing it down mitchell took over and if you're the cavs i think you would take solace watching the tape the pacers made some dumb shots like what was that one numbhardt he made like a 29 footer at one point like two seconds something and then he made another one then toppin made a couple and it was just like every time they needed a dumb shot to go and it did but i thought how burton was the uh i thought he controlled the game offensively especially some of the transition stuff which i think if you're cleveland when you you have guys out there like uh

Speaker 1 you know wade

Speaker 1 and uh

Speaker 1 what's it in streuce like i i thought athletically they were kind of trying to make the calves pay for are you gonna put those shooters out we're gonna go go go on you um and the other thing that was interesting to me was how burton attacking allen

Speaker 1 you know, who I think's a really good defensive center, but he was like, come on out here. Let me do my yo-yo thing with you.
And he got him a few times.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that that one I watched where I think the league's like letting guys change their pivot foot a little bit more than I ever remember.

Speaker 1 When you take the five steps backwards to shoot the three.

Speaker 2 The backwards travel thing, I've never, and I guess it's legal, but I don't understand how that evolved into something. But look, everybody does it, so I'm not even making it specific to anyone.

Speaker 2 But Halliburton got Allen on one. Yeah, he got Allen on one of those.
And then the drive where he like delayed it mid-drive and then went, that was straight. That was two steps.

Speaker 2 That wasn't even like an NBA two and a half or whatever. That was like a real drive.
And it reminded me a bit of when

Speaker 2 the Celtics,

Speaker 2 I can't believe you're not doing this and I'm doing it. But Tatum, I think the Celtics preferred Allen against Tatum in a switch because they liked Tatum.

Speaker 2 Look, it's just a lot to ask any seven-foot guy, even as great defensively as some of these dudes are, to hold up.

Speaker 2 That's what made Barnett so special is it's just like, oh, you're going to switch into me? Like, what are you nuts?

Speaker 2 But Tatum likes that matchup because it's also pulling Allen away and everything else. And I'm with you.

Speaker 2 I thought Halliburton was in complete control every time he had the ball to the point where it was like, I think you guys could actually do this more.

Speaker 2 But the balance was so incredible from six guys tonight, including all the starters.

Speaker 2 It was, uh, I thought it was just off the charts impressive because then you blow the lead, Mitchell's going nuts, although he can't hit any threes. That place is on fire.

Speaker 2 Like, the announcers are basically saying, hey, man, like, Greg Anthony's like, I think this is the loudest building I've ever been in for a playoff game.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so don't

Speaker 2 to be on the road and blow, well, not blow the, but you just expect that the Cavs are going to have some kind of fight in them and then still respond and close it out.

Speaker 2 Um, as impressive as a win is, like, I'm not going to say today, but um, I think it's just up there with anything else we've seen. Yeah.

Speaker 1 For this. That move Mitchell has where he drives right at the guy and he does the high dribble.
Oh, it's awesome. And he carries the ball by his head and then rips it forward and comes in.

Speaker 1 And I was like, where have I seen that before? And I thought about it for like an hour. It's Dwayne Wade's move.
That was the old Dwayne Wade. Are those the only two guys that had that?

Speaker 1 I'm trying to think. Did Kobe have that?

Speaker 2 I feel like Kobe had everything.

Speaker 1 He's split up. But did Kobe do that one, that high, bringing the ball up high? And then you're almost like driving the ball down into the guy and then bouncing off.

Speaker 2 J.R. Ryder, maybe?

Speaker 1 No, Isaiah Ryder. Changed his name.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I did.

Speaker 1 Mitchell was great. You know what I loved about Mitchell in that game? It was the same reason why I felt like he had to be a top five MVP thing.

Speaker 1 Like he could feel what was happening and he's like, I got this, I got this. And he really like legitimately took over the game and swung it for a couple of minutes.
It was 8068.

Speaker 2 It was 80, 68, and he drove six straight possessions, just drove. And with him, you know, he's probably as good as anybody at splitting the two defenders, which is, you know, when Kobe.

Speaker 2 I think Kobe's probably the best I've ever seen at it.

Speaker 2 Wade always wanted to reject the screen a little bit more than you expect, but with Mitchell, you don't even necessarily need, like, sometimes you just screen to try to get people moving around and figure out where the help's going to be, all this stuff.

Speaker 2 It's not as much as it is hunting the big all the time. But Mitchell, he can beat the guy off the dribble, and then he can beat the help defender.
He can split a double.

Speaker 2 He can do anything that you really ask of him there.

Speaker 2 But if he's not going to hit his threes, you know, I mean, you don't expect him to shoot that poorly.

Speaker 1 One for 11.

Speaker 1 Yeah, if I'm Indiana, I'm psyched because I almost feel like you have to win game one on the road if you're going to win a seven-game series where you don't have the home court.

Speaker 1 Otherwise, now you're looking at you have to win four out of six, and it's just the math becomes too hard. It always seems like winning that game one is huge.

Speaker 1 I think they know they can win there.

Speaker 1 And I continue to think that's as good of a team as anyone in the East. Boston obviously has a higher ceiling.
Cleveland has the pedigree from the season and probably have the best player.

Speaker 1 I would say Mitchell slight edge over Halbert. But I think Indiana can play with both those teams.
I was talking to my dad today.

Speaker 1 My dad's like, who would you want to play in round three if we get by the Knicks out of these two? And I was like, we'd want to play Indiana because we'd have home court.

Speaker 1 He's like, yeah, good point. But,

Speaker 1 man, they're scary. Like, but like, and both of those teams have played the Celtics really well and know that they can hang with them and potentially beat them.

Speaker 1 You know, and for the Celtics, health is going to be the biggest enemy for them these next two rounds, whether they can, on a back-to-back season, try to keep everybody upright and playing big minutes.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I think all those teams are really good. I think Indiana, if Indiana made the finals, I wouldn't be shocked.
I wouldn't be a little surprised.

Speaker 1 I'd be shocked if Golden State made it with how limited their roster is. Like if they actually put together two more rounds, that would be like playing Quentin Post and Kaminka and

Speaker 1 hoping Moses Moody is making threes and like that would be shocking.

Speaker 1 I would not think about playing Indiana.

Speaker 2 Carlisle, even though he plays a ton of guys, he knows what he's going to do over the course of a game, and then he can kind of figure out how he wants to close.

Speaker 2 Kerr doesn't know who he's going to close fourth quarters with this late into the season.

Speaker 1 Moses Moody can't make a shot today.

Speaker 1 Cross him off. Game 89.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 He's turning around going.

Speaker 1 It's like, who have anybody else? Is Andrew all over the audio? No, he's not on our team anymore. You know the other thing with Indiana that I think is interesting? Everybody they bring in, I like.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you like Jairus Walker. I even like him.
Yeah, but like Toppin was like, all right.

Speaker 1 But when Toppin's open in the corner, do you think the shot's going in in a fourth quarter? Because I think it's going in.

Speaker 2 After that Minnesota run, yeah.

Speaker 1 When TJ McConnell's driving to the basket, I'm like, I think he's going to score.

Speaker 1 I think they're a good team. Continue.
I thought they were the best value for all the bets before the playoffs because they were like.

Speaker 2 You have no hesitation then. I mean, Thomas Bryant's out there, right? They're playing Obi Toppin at the five against the Cleveland options that they have.

Speaker 1 Five minutes for Thomas.

Speaker 2 But I'm like,

Speaker 1 I just think Carlisle was showing off at that point.

Speaker 1 He's like, you don't think I could play 11?

Speaker 1 Watch this.

Speaker 2 Doesn't that mean, doesn't, isn't Thomas usually the 12th guy?

Speaker 1 I'll tell you this. If Garland's not healthy, I think Indiana wins the series.
And if Garland ends up being healthy, I still think they could win it. I think it's go six or seven.

Speaker 1 I thought that was a great bet. That was one of my favorite bets, the Indiana plus two and a half.
Let's take one more break for the podcast, and we got Tuck Clippers.

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Speaker 1 Clippers.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 big picture.

Speaker 1 I think this was the rare series that was decided in game four.

Speaker 1 You see see this sometimes, where

Speaker 1 sometimes the games, I know it's weird to be like, game seven, anyone can win. And the line certainly reflected it.

Speaker 1 The line was even, then it was minus one, then it ended at nuggets, minus one and a half, which I asked FanDuel, like, have we had a game seven line that low? And we really haven't.

Speaker 1 Like, they're usually like three and up for a game seven. So even Vegas was like, we don't know.
But I think game four,

Speaker 1 which we talked about a week ago,

Speaker 1 the one I went to at the Intuit,

Speaker 1 and the way the Nuggets played in that game, the desperation they had, where Jokic, Gordon, Murray, where all of them were like, we have to win this.

Speaker 1 And they end up, they win it on this crazy alley oop.

Speaker 1 But the desperation they showed in that game

Speaker 1 versus the desperation or lack of desperation the Clippers had yesterday was pretty telling. And I don't know what happened.
I don't know whether the Clippers wore out.

Speaker 1 It's an older team, maybe playing on Thursday, maybe the Denver altitude, maybe they kind of deep down knew they missed their shot in this series. But

Speaker 1 that third quarter, which I asked to rewatch this morning, the first five minutes of the third quarter for the Clippers

Speaker 1 was

Speaker 1 one of the most putrid embarrassing displays of basketball on both ends I can remember because it was an eight-point game. Kawhi hit a three.

Speaker 1 And then for the next four minutes, they just took a complete shit on both ends. And there's 20 mistakes.
It's just awful. And that was it.
That was their season over in four minutes, basically.

Speaker 1 It was really bad. And I don't know what they do now.

Speaker 2 I thought the Clippers are going to win the series. You know, back to that closing part of it.
It's like, you realize how bad Denver is defensively. I didn't like their defensive options.

Speaker 2 And I think we're going to see those exploited again on the perimeter against the OKC team that has its shit together, certainly more so than the Clippers do.

Speaker 2 You know, I watched the third quarter again this morning because he asked me to, and

Speaker 2 you're like, what happened to you guys? Like,

Speaker 2 I know they were kind of like trying to figure out how to, like, the done parts that were good defensively. Clearly, he was the guy that was getting exposed as they ignored him offensively.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think Zoo is a great story this year. I thought Jokic fought him way better in game seven.

Speaker 2 than maybe you'd expect. There's some really good Jokic numbers as far as like defensively, what the averages would be for the Clippers at the rim against everybody.

Speaker 1 And so that's what he feels, too.

Speaker 2 That's the thing with him. He's at least positioned better.
And it was funny because, you know, he was just so bad defensively in that first half of the game. They ended up winning.

Speaker 1 But I don't, I have a lot on Harden if you want to do it.

Speaker 2 I just don't know that any, like, I have stuff specific to the third quarter, but it's just crazy to see the cycle of the Harden conversation happen all over again. It's like, who's even,

Speaker 2 what is the debate anymore?

Speaker 1 Like, at this point, I actually have sympathy because,

Speaker 1 but he had assists in the first half, which kind of

Speaker 1 shielded some of the stuff that he did that fucked him over in that first half, like just not running back on defense, being lazy, you know, in a bunch of different ways with specific plays.

Speaker 1 And then in the third quarter, he's like, I'm taking it up two notches. And he was so bad for five minutes.

Speaker 2 He played. So I went through it and I was really focusing on him.
You knew it was bad. Like, you can just tell if you've watched it enough, you can tell.

Speaker 2 You can see it and go, uh-oh, this is a problem. His first technical shot, his first actual shot of the game was about 55 seconds left to go in the first quarter.

Speaker 2 He had gotten free throws on that bullshit armhook thing that he does at about the two-minute mark. He had let Watson get behind him after a make.

Speaker 2 Like, you didn't, there was no one else in the area other than just, I'll let a super athletic guy just kind of get behind me because whatever. He played the entire 12 minutes.

Speaker 2 I counted the number of times he actually got inside the three-point line. And I'm not talking like a foot over the line.
I'm talking like got into the, got into the offense.

Speaker 2 Of all of their possessions in the third quarter, he stepped inside the three-point line three times. One was an atrocious lob attempt.
There was another play where he was on the right side.

Speaker 2 And there was another one where he played for free throws on a foul. He was hoping to get fouled on this layup going against Jamal Murray, and he lost it.

Speaker 1 So, all right, he doesn't want to shoot.

Speaker 2 Fine. He doesn't want to move.
Fine. I mean, he's standing by the ball arena.

Speaker 1 And they're killing him on defense.

Speaker 2 Right. He's standing on the ball arena logo, which is like by the coach's box, and he just can't.
There's one play where Kawhi gets totally shut off in the paint. He's like at the free throw line.

Speaker 2 He's at the paint. Denver's scrambling on defense.

Speaker 1 And he looks to Harden.

Speaker 2 And all Hardin had to do was take two steps just to get there as a possible option to catch at the three-point line. And Harden couldn't even move in from the five feet there.

Speaker 2 There's something that happens with him where his regular season brain and his approach to dissecting everything, there is a speed difference.

Speaker 2 There's a process because obviously, he looks like Austin Rivers was just on with me last week saying he's one of the three smartest players he's ever played with.

Speaker 2 And I'll give it to him because you see the moments where he's diagnosing everything that's going to happen and how to help and which matchup makes more sense.

Speaker 2 But there is something that happens to him when he is in these high-leverage moments that he's just clearly uncomfortable. So it's like, okay, you don't don't want to shoot.
You don't want to move.

Speaker 2 Can you at least be positioned somewhere? The Aaron Gordon tipping.

Speaker 1 He just lets him just step right in front of him. Stop boxing out, dudes.
It's not, yeah, it's not just basketball. It's like the same fight we just watched from the Warriors.

Speaker 1 You watch and you go, where's the fight? This is game seven. You're going home if you lose this game.
You realize that, right? And you just don't see it. You saw it in game six.

Speaker 1 Game six, he came out. He was aggressive.
He was attacking. And it was like, oh, this guy really cares that they win today.
Game seven, it didn't seem like he cared.

Speaker 2 That Sixers series against the Celtics a few years ago, he saved their ass a couple of those games early on.

Speaker 2 And as somebody who's been well positioned on this, like I remember being on Sports Center 10 years ago, going, yeah, something's wrong here. And,

Speaker 2 you know, people were like, oh, he had a concussion. It was like that Spurs series, remember? Yeah.
And you're just like, what? You think he has a concussion? So that's what happened.

Speaker 2 And it's like, okay, well, what about this year? What about this year? What about the Warriors series? What about the 18 closeout game? What about the 19 closeout game?

Speaker 2 Like, it just goes on and on and on. And

Speaker 2 I don't know why it keeps happening, but it's like, okay, so you don't want to shoot. Like, whatever it is, you're not comfortable.

Speaker 2 At least

Speaker 2 do something else. And I think it's a really good lesson in the first half tonight of where Steph is struggling and nothing is easy and he can't get an open look.

Speaker 2 And it's like, okay, but there's still a bunch of other ways I could do that.

Speaker 1 Right. He's rebounding.
He's playing defense. He's scrapping.
He's trying to create stuff. Well, is that so?

Speaker 1 Our friend Zach Lowe, when he wrote his hardened playoff piece, that was heading into round two of the Lakers series in 2020.

Speaker 2 When they won game one.

Speaker 1 And he had, in that piece, he had in 15 games facing elimination since 2013,

Speaker 1 you know, hard at 90 assists, 79 turnovers,

Speaker 1 40% field goal.

Speaker 1 The crunch time stuff was really bad, 38%,

Speaker 1 nine for 50 on threes and crunch time during that stretch, right? Damn. Well, since then, 20, that's six more playoff exits.
These were his elimination game totals.

Speaker 1 He had 30 points in the Lakers one that they lost, six turnovers, 22 and 21. He had 11 in the closeout and 22, 9 and 23, 16 and 24, and 7

Speaker 1 in this game. But the total shots, he averaged 16 a game, 9.3 assists,

Speaker 1 31 for 81 field goals, and 9 for 42 three points. So, one thing that definitely happens is you can't make threes in these big games.
But then, if you go

Speaker 1 further,

Speaker 1 you know, this is

Speaker 1 just statistically one of the best offensive players of all time. Like, I looked at how many guys have averaged 24 points a game just for their career

Speaker 1 who have played

Speaker 1 1,000 games or more, and it's 11. It's Jordan, Wilt, Durant,

Speaker 1 LeBron James, Oscar, Carl Malone, Kobe, Dominique, Steph Curry, Kareem, and James Harden. That's why we talk about this because that's how good the stats are.

Speaker 1 You go to the playoffs and there's only 16 guys who have played at least 140 games and

Speaker 1 averaged 22 a game or more.

Speaker 1 And they're all guys who won titles. Jordan, Durant, West, LeBron, Curry, Hakeem, Kobe, Dirk.
Malone's the first one who didn't. Kareem, Shaq, Larry, Wilt, Harden, Wade, Havicek.

Speaker 1 So he statistically resides in this area with all of these great guys who have all won titles, and yet his legacy is over and over again,

Speaker 1 the worst possible things happen at the worst time for him. And, you know,

Speaker 1 we could talk about legacy and whether it actually matters, because I think what we've learned the last 10 years is sometimes the legacy stuff doesn't matter as much and people choose to remember or forget what they want.

Speaker 1 But, you know, Zach was saying four or five years ago that this was the Carl Malone of guards, and it's worse now than it was when we were talking about it a few years ago. And this is it.

Speaker 1 What is he, 35, 36? It's been in the league 16 years. It's not going to get better.
This is just a legacy. And the Clippers, you combine that with the Clippers, and it's unbeatable.

Speaker 2 I wasn't even, you know, the reason it used to get

Speaker 2 me more passionate was because what he was doing in the regular season, people were like, you know, putting these numbers up there going like, look at this.

Speaker 2 I mean, top five MVP or top three MVP finishes, like five straight years, maybe it was top four finishes. And so

Speaker 2 when you look at those stretches,

Speaker 2 you start going like, okay, where's this guy going to end up? And without the ring, you know, we're pretty resistant to let you hang out in that top-tier neighborhood.

Speaker 1 Make the finals.

Speaker 2 Yeah, look, I think the other thing that we learned through those years, too, is that that's where the usage part of it comes in, is If an entire season is dedicated to you having the ball every single minute to like absurd historic levels, and you're putting up all these points, like that's cool.

Speaker 1 And you're playing a different team every game versus the same team seven times in a row.

Speaker 2 Yeah, is that going to translate? Is that going to be the best thing? I mean, again, I don't mean to bring up the Westbrook stuff because,

Speaker 2 you know, he was great. He was great in the elimination game.
Tons of energy. Good for him.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 there was this regular season thing that was happening in those OKC games that once they got into the playoffs, you're like, oh, so now we don't just stand around and wait for him to do something because Westbrook had such an advantage because of how athletic he was.

Speaker 2 And Harden had the statistical advantage because he was going to make threes. He's terrific if you send help.
He's terrific on the lobs. He lives at the free throw line.

Speaker 2 So like those prime years for him would give him the profile of somebody really, really special.

Speaker 2 And I figured at some point he would probably just have a great elimination game because he was fucking due.

Speaker 1 This is over a decade, man. Like that Spurs series that I've been doing.

Speaker 1 That was the point of Zach's column in 2020. He's like, why haven't we had our James Harden playoff moment yet? And we've had six playoffs since he wrote that column.

Speaker 1 I'm mailing you.

Speaker 1 I'm texting you. Check your texts.

Speaker 2 I mean, even when they beat OKC in 20 before they lost the Lakers in five, he was four of 15, one of nine from three.

Speaker 1 I just texted you what I'm about to run through. This is the James Harden.
This is the levels of the bad James Harden closeout games. I'm going to rank them.

Speaker 1 James Harden closeout, terrible games ranked. 2017, game six, Spurs, I think was the worst one ever.
This was the one we lost. Two for 11, right? They lost by 39 at home, two for 11.

Speaker 1 He was one for two in the first half, field goal-wise, as San Antonio went up by 18. And by the way, Kawhi Leonard did not play.

Speaker 1 Did not play in the game because he was hurt. The next one is the 2023 game six, game seven, the Boston combo, where they blew game six, lost by nine.

Speaker 1 He was four for 16, 0 for 6 from 3, 5 turnovers, 1 for 6 in the second half. They lost game 7 by 24, and he was 3 for 11 in that game with five turnovers.

Speaker 2 And you could see from the first drive where he had to make a decision with the ball.

Speaker 1 You're like, oh, he, I don't think he. You kind of know right away.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and this is a series where he had 45 in game one and won the overtime game. Right, he was round two when Embiid wasn't even, I think, had missed one of those games, right?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 next one: 2015 game five Warriors, round three, conference finals.

Speaker 1 They lost by 14. He was two for 11 with 12 turnovers.

Speaker 1 They were down six at halftime. He was 0 for 5 in the second half.
So you have that. I put, this is a game they won, but 2015 game six Clippers round two, which they ended up winning by 12.

Speaker 1 He was five for 20 in the game, bench for the comeback. Yeah, the bench for the 40s was one of the all-timers.

Speaker 1 Houston's 40 and 15. They won that 40 to 15.
They won the fourth quarter. Harden ever played.
He was one for seven in that game. The game seven this year, two freight field goals, seven points.

Speaker 1 Denver goes plus 16 in the third quarter. He's 0 for 2 field goals in that game.

Speaker 1 And then there's other ones. There's 22, game six, Miami.
They lose by 9. He's 0 for 2 in the second half field goals.
Last year, game six, Dallas, round one. They lose by 13.

Speaker 1 He's 0 for 6 from 3, 5 for 16. It goes on and on.

Speaker 1 The point is, there's not a lot of good ones.

Speaker 1 And there's not even a lot of decent ones. And there's no great one.

Speaker 1 And in fact, probably the most honorable one he has was that year when they played the Bucs when he had the Hammy and they lost an OT.

Speaker 1 And he was five for 17, but he had 22 points. He got to the line.
He had nine assists. Remember, he was playing on one leg?

Speaker 1 That was probably the most admiration I've had for him in one of these games. But

Speaker 1 look, people are going to remember what they want to remember.

Speaker 1 But I'm going to remember that this is a guy that you're just like, I'm so mad I didn't bet on Denver in game seven when you think of the Clippers piece combined with the fact that the Clippers needed Harden to really come through in a big game.

Speaker 1 He's just never done it.

Speaker 2 But see, that's so crazy. Is all of these other games, for the most part, I mean, granted, you can argue Embiid's importance in the 23 series.

Speaker 2 The funniest thing, too, is because I'm looking to the game log too. When they swept Brooklyn in the game for closeout, he was 4-18 in 40 minutes.

Speaker 1 He was right.

Speaker 2 You know, and like they didn't, they didn't need him, obviously, because they swept that Nets team. But I at least felt with this one, because I knew when I had said it, I'm like, to pick.

Speaker 2 And it wasn't like I was picking hardened against Jokic, because really it's about Kawhi and it's about Zubots and it's about the team. It's about how great they had been defensively.

Speaker 2 and it felt like they had really figured some of this stuff out.

Speaker 1 I'm not, I don't even know who was left to argue with.

Speaker 2 I mean, you could find somebody. Over the years, there was always people from Houston arguing about this stuff all the time.
You're just like, all right, cool, man. Like, whatever.

Speaker 1 The argument was what he did in game six. He was really, really good in game six, right? That was

Speaker 1 three days ago. The Denver series.

Speaker 1 He was really good in that game. So the arguments would be like, hey, he was really good in game six.
Could it happen again? And the answer was, it can't.

Speaker 2 Okay. and i think to be fair to harden you got to admit that they unloaded the clip in game six and then a turn and he's old

Speaker 2 yeah he's an older player he's playing an altitude i get it i would not lead my show with this today because if he were 30 and he were the number one option and getting mvp votes then i would be like i was a few years ago but i'm I'm pointing to the stuff that's frustrating because it's like, all right, if you don't have the offensive part of it, it doesn't mean you don't have to do any of the other stuff.

Speaker 2 You just decide I'm going to stop moving. But I'm, again, like I I said, I'm more sympathetic this time around because he's not the number one option, he's not in the MVP conversation.

Speaker 2 I mean, he might make all NBA, but they really, they really needed him, though.

Speaker 1 They needed something, they needed

Speaker 1 him a catalyst.

Speaker 2 If he was spent, he's played this game long enough, he needed to figure out a way to be like, Okay, I'm gonna, I'm like, dude, it looks like he's saving himself the entire time he's out there.

Speaker 2 But be calculated about what your team needs from somebody who's been in this many playoff games. And you know, you want to wonder if Ty Lou is watching this going,

Speaker 2 do we need him out there for all 12 minutes?

Speaker 1 Was he going to put in Corey Brewer? Josh Smith.

Speaker 1 Think Amir Coffey is playing Corey Brewer?

Speaker 1 Maybe. Ben Simmons is Josh Smith.
Oh, my God. He just hit a three.

Speaker 1 Look.

Speaker 1 Harden's been in the league 16 years, and it's a lot to ask for him to outplay Jokic in game seven.

Speaker 1 But it leads to a pretty good what-do-do conversation if you're the Clippers.

Speaker 1 Okay, real quick, though,

Speaker 1 you couldn't get through Round one. Go ahead.

Speaker 2 I have to pretend, but

Speaker 2 Pop Pop Simmons,

Speaker 2 you know, you've got your compound,

Speaker 2 you know, who knows, maybe Montana for you. And the grandkids, the grandkids come to visit.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 And they go, Pop Pop, tell us about James. Tell us about James Harden.
What are you going to say to your grandkids?

Speaker 1 Good question.

Speaker 2 Do it with a grandfatherly voice, if you could.

Speaker 1 One of the best left-handed players I've ever seen.

Speaker 2 Good start.

Speaker 1 Recreated offensive basketball in a couple of different ways.

Speaker 1 Was one of the best two guards of the first 25 years of the 21st century. Put up huge stats, and his teams were always good.

Speaker 1 And something would happen to him in playoff series that none of us could really fully understand.

Speaker 1 And by the way, the same thing was could be said about Carl Malone, but at least Carl Malone made the finals twice as the best guy in a finals team.

Speaker 1 Did I think he was going to come through in those games? I did not.

Speaker 1 But at least he was able to get that far and he won some big playoff series, you know, and Hardin,

Speaker 1 you know, Zach wrote that piece six years ago. What's the James Harden playoff moment? We still don't have it.

Speaker 1 It's, you know, I was thinking about this stuff because I was thinking about it in the context of Carmelo, right? Because I think Carmelo has had a nice little resurgence post-career.

Speaker 1 And I think there's,

Speaker 1 he's, I think, a popular ex-star, right? And I think people remember his Knicks era really fondly.

Speaker 1 He won one playoff series with the Knicks. Yeah.
If you go through Carmelo in the playoffs, he starts out with five straight first-round exits. And you know, I'm a Carmelo fan.

Speaker 1 I was the one who wrote the Carmelo column about how I felt like he had a chance to be on that level and he was just bad luck with his teams. My homepage.

Speaker 1 Five straight first-round exits. He lost 18 of his first 21 playoff games.
In the 2009 playoffs, they won two rounds, lost to LA in six. They lost in the first round the next year to Utah.

Speaker 1 His career record in Denver, playoff record, two for seven in playoff series, 15 and 28, career record. Goes to the Knicks.

Speaker 1 Three years, one for three in playoff series, seven and 14 is his record, averaged 28 a game, then missed the playoffs the next four years. And now Brunson is hot this year.
And people are like,

Speaker 1 who's better? Who's the greatest Knick ever, him or Carmelo? Because people can't remember anything. So that bringing my point back to James Harden, maybe people won't remember 10 years from now.

Speaker 1 They'll be like, oh, yeah, the beard. He was awesome.
They're not going to remember any of this stuff. Because they certainly don't remember any of it with Carmelo.

Speaker 2 I'm pushing back on this. I agree with Carmelo.
I think he's an incredibly likable guy, but Carmelo doesn't have the failures at the highest moments.

Speaker 2 Like, this is like not making fun of the Broncos before Elway.

Speaker 1 But I'm just saying,

Speaker 1 he doesn't really have any success as from a playoff standpoint as a player. But I think now as the years pass, people feel like he was on that LeBron Wade level in some ways.

Speaker 1 My point is, if you actually go through it, it's pretty grim.

Speaker 2 But I think you're missing my point is that failing.

Speaker 2 consistently with this many eyes on you later those warriors fail everybody missing threes that yeah i mean even though he had 30 in the closeout game at 18, two for 13

Speaker 1 from three.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I don't know that you felt great about him necessarily in that game.

Speaker 1 I feel a hundred times worse about Hardin. I'm just saying, like, I just wonder with legacy sometimes when people are like, legacy, legacy, legacy, legacy.

Speaker 1 We don't even do a good job of remembering what legacies were or what happened in somebody's career. I think Camaro had a lot of bad luck.

Speaker 1 Teammates, he pushed his way to the Knicks and they traded all these guys back to Denver. But for the most part, for what his talent was to never,

Speaker 1 to never make a finals to be in one round three, like it's kind of disappointing in retrospect because I thought he was one of the best guys of that generation.

Speaker 1 And he's the one that nothing really happened.

Speaker 2 Yeah, if you go through the Carmelo things, I used to argue with Knicks fans that like turned on him big time. Like they ended up really turning on him.

Speaker 2 I think it's that Pacers series, you know, speaking of the Pacers again.

Speaker 2 If you go through all of Carmelo's playoff exits, and I promise, like, it's, I don't know how many people would actually do it, More often than not, the team they were going up against, you weren't going to pick that Carmelo's team to beat that team.

Speaker 2 I think there's a jazz series in there, maybe, or the records were pretty equal to the Clipper series.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, he was, he won three playoff series in his career. He's 22 for 42 in the playoffs.

Speaker 1 But that's the thing. I think as the years pass, people.

Speaker 1 remember what they want to remember and the Twitter videos and the social media stuff becomes as big a part of somebody's legacy as anything else.

Speaker 1 And I think James will probably be okay, big picture, because the stats are going to have him. Look at Carl Malone.

Speaker 1 You and I were there for the Carl Malone era, and now the years pass, and people are like, yeah, Carl Malone's stats. Holy shit.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Made the finals twice. It's like, all right, well, you wouldn't want to throw in the ball with 18 seconds left.

Speaker 1 Just wouldn't have.

Speaker 2 Game four, maybe with Hardin.

Speaker 2 Because that's what I like to remember about Jim.

Speaker 2 Well, down 115, 113.

Speaker 2 Sixers need it.

Speaker 2 Harden, three-pointer, wins it in overtime.

Speaker 2 I think he ended up above 42 in that game.

Speaker 1 Big game, Jimmy. Well, big picture.
What do you do if you're the Clippers? What do you do?

Speaker 1 Well, Kawaii.

Speaker 1 Harden has got a $36 million player option. They have Powell and Bogdanovich and Eubanks and Batum for $46 million expiring next year.
So they could put contracts together.

Speaker 1 They don't really have any picks to move.

Speaker 1 They could put together some contracts and take somebody else's high-salary problem

Speaker 1 or somebody who's a little expensive that maybe somebody wants to dump because they're tanking. But,

Speaker 1 you know, it's, do we run back this team and be like, hey, we lost to the best offensive player since Jordan, basically, in round one and seven? Let's not overreact or do you overreact?

Speaker 2 Are they going to have the option to overreact?

Speaker 2 And I would say this is just the headline to all of this offseason stuff that I want to get into with you that I know you're excited about, but just in general, when you look at the free agent list, it's terrible.

Speaker 1 Okay. Well, it's more of the player acquisition list.
It's the

Speaker 1 can you talk yourself into Zion? Can you talk yourself into Trae Young?

Speaker 1 There's eight of those guys. Yeah.
It's a bonus.

Speaker 1 What's he up to?

Speaker 2 You're right. That's the exciting part of it.

Speaker 2 There's a really exciting version of this summer for the NBA, but more often than not, like history tells us, it's not just all of a sudden every GM is like, let's just get wild with this and start changing our dudes.

Speaker 2 And we'll just keep running it back. So the fact that you have Kawhi under contract for two more years at 50 million,

Speaker 2 you know, everything still kind of revolves around him because I don't even know what the market would be for him.

Speaker 2 And as you pointed out, they're not like, they can't just like tear this whole thing and necessarily start all over.

Speaker 2 I don't know if Hardin's going to opt out because of the over 38 rule if they extend him.

Speaker 2 Like, is he probably thinking in the back of his head this league still owes him money because of the Philadelphia thing?

Speaker 1 I just think he's got to opt in at the 36.

Speaker 1 You have to.

Speaker 2 But he could opt out and go fine.

Speaker 1 You can't do that again. Did he do that the last time?

Speaker 2 No, but if he already understands, like, all right, how about I figure out a way to give us? Because I think last season was, you know, they were smart about the Paul George thing.

Speaker 1 How much money can James Harden give away?

Speaker 2 I'm talking about opting out of the player option of 36 million and then doing a three-year extension and then having the number be less each year.

Speaker 2 So it's like, okay, James, like, why don't we do it this way? And maybe there's more flexibility.

Speaker 2 But they've done a good job of kind of resetting the financial restrictions here because

Speaker 2 depending on, you know, the options and who they want to keep around here, but you seem to be completely either not being with me on this Harden thing at all. Do you not understand like just opting

Speaker 2 a less average annual salary for a couple more years?

Speaker 1 But now I'm in business with James Harden for three more years. I just.

Speaker 2 Well, I know we didn't make a compelling case of wanting to be in a long-term relationship with him last few minutes, but I don't know what their options are.

Speaker 1 To say the least. I mean, we just went through it for eight minutes.
So now we have to bring it back for three years. I would do 36 million if you opt in.
Okay, let's see how it goes.

Speaker 1 And then I have him. I have all these expirings and I can get a little frisky either before the season or heading into February.

Speaker 1 Because the best thing that happened to them is Kawhi and how good Kawhi was, I think, the last three months of this season, combined with Zubots at the foundation of something and I have some flexibility and they have one of the, but it's a front office you and I both really respect.

Speaker 1 Like, I feel like they're going to figure out they have options.

Speaker 1 I don't think they have a lot of options, though. But that doesn't mean you have to give James Harden 100 million for three.
Like, we'll shave 5 million off your deal.

Speaker 2 I wasn't talking about 100 million.

Speaker 1 What would you do? If he's going to opt out of his 36,

Speaker 1 then you're talking about like

Speaker 1 those deals like what like C.J. McCollum did, some other people where it's like,

Speaker 1 would you do

Speaker 2 what if he says I'll opt out? I'll do three years, 70 million.

Speaker 1 Oh, now you have my attention. That's what I'm saying.
How would he do that?

Speaker 1 Would he do that?

Speaker 2 Do you think he would,

Speaker 2 what do you think he signs for after another year?

Speaker 2 He'll be 37 that summer. Do you think he's making

Speaker 1 70 million a year? You're asking me to figure out the motivations of somebody who's passed up two giant max deals over the last six years to take

Speaker 1 it in Philly. Yeah, no, I get it.

Speaker 1 Um, well, the bigger question for me is: you're in the West,

Speaker 1 you're in the same division or the same conference as OKC, who's just a fucking nightmare. You're in the same conference as Minnesota is a fucking nightmare.

Speaker 1 You have Wemby and San Antonio with these draft picks and cap space.

Speaker 1 You have Luca and the Lakers. Like, he's going through.
It's a nightmare conference. And you just, and Jokic, who just beat you.

Speaker 1 I don't know. You're in no man's land.
But the owners, like the owner just flew 200 fans to Denver for game seven. Like he's not, he's going to think they have a chance on the way back.

Speaker 1 Why wasn't there more social media from the flight?

Speaker 1 I want to silence.

Speaker 2 I want to read that on the athletic, the flight home.

Speaker 1 Like, are we landing in? Maybe it's a documentary.

Speaker 2 We're landing in Barstow, Barstow, by the way.

Speaker 1 I think it's one of those guys you have to find your own way home. Then Barre reports over there.

Speaker 1 So you're just, you're, you're trying to do 370 for Hardin.

Speaker 2 I mean, maybe that's, maybe that's nuts, but like Hardin next year, 37, coming off the 36 million. Who knows?

Speaker 2 Does he look at it as like, I'm going to get another 40 million guaranteed on the books right now? Maybe he thinks, hey, that's ridiculous.

Speaker 2 I can do another three for 75 after that, keeping this high average annual for this one. The chances are that he's on the team.
Kawhi is on the team.

Speaker 2 So that's whatever this is, it's like 80 plus million with those two dudes.

Speaker 2 They don't have a young player that you're really excited about that maybe can entice a vet to say, I want to be traded there because it's LA and it's a great coaching staff and front office, great ownership.

Speaker 2 Good arena. There's a lot of stuff about it that feels really attractive for the next guy that's mad, but it's not a great group on the court to be mad enough to be like, I'm going there.

Speaker 1 If you had to do a pie chart of this will be better next year, this would be the same, or oh, this will be worse.

Speaker 1 I think the ooh, this will be worse is 60% of the pie,

Speaker 1 right? Because you, you basically have to get another healthy Kawhi season. I have no, no idea how many of those are left.

Speaker 1 You know, you're never getting a better Zubat season.

Speaker 1 You got Norm Powell. Oh, you might get the same.
You might get the same. You're not getting a better season.

Speaker 2 I mean, unless you wanted to trade Zoo, can you get creative with a zoo norm?

Speaker 1 Zoo's like,

Speaker 1 I thought it's weird. His stats went down as the series went along, but I really respected how he went at Jokic.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't know where the rebounding was for him.

Speaker 1 I thought he was a better rebounder in the regular season than he was in the playoffs, but I just think, I think when you play Jokic for two straight weeks, I think it starts to break your brain after a while.

Speaker 1 If you're actually, you're in charge of defending him and stopping him. Can you imagine that?

Speaker 1 The response, but just like going to sleep and being like,

Speaker 1 Yeah, I got to play Jokic again tomorrow. Like,

Speaker 1 that's like three hours' sleep. You're just lying in bed staring at the ceiling, like fucking A.

Speaker 1 Um,

Speaker 1 next team for what do you do?

Speaker 2 So, basically, we agree, though, on the Clippers. Like, you didn't have some magic crazy scenario here.
Because when I was doing it out this morning, I'm like, I don't really know how different.

Speaker 1 The crazy scenario is, do you take a big contract from somebody that somebody is like kind of excited to get off of?

Speaker 1 Like whatever this year's version of Brandon Ingram is, and Brandon Ingram didn't get traded. But do you talk yourself into a Brandon Ingram type? Somebody who's available and expensive?

Speaker 1 You know, that's the question for me. I don't know who that is yet because we haven't seen.
First of all, the playoffs have to shake out a certain way.

Speaker 1 Somebody might

Speaker 1 tail out in the second, you know, in the second round. Who knows?

Speaker 1 The Pistons

Speaker 1 get really interesting because they have hardaway and shroeder and beasley all as uh unrestricted free agents they have to buy us on a 26.6 expiring and they have ivy coming back they have harris

Speaker 1 they do

Speaker 1 and you could talk me into hey let's just keep the trains moving the thing i would recommend them not doing is overreacting to how the playoffs went and doing new longer big deals with beasley and and uh hardaway and schruder and being like, we have our nucleus.

Speaker 1 I would go the hired gun route for those.

Speaker 1 But, you know, this is an interesting KD

Speaker 1 destination.

Speaker 1 So let's talk about it.

Speaker 2 My,

Speaker 2 you know, we were talking about, hey, how do you feel about the Rockets, right?

Speaker 2 What's the grade you give them? And it sucks right now, but the season was a success.

Speaker 2 Detroit,

Speaker 2 you got to feel great about this. And I think they battled with New York to even a higher level.
You know, there's a couple of things where this breaks maybe to a game seven.

Speaker 2 So I thought they competed to a level that I didn't know that they were going to get to against the Knicks. And I'm totally with you.

Speaker 2 Like, I think because of the free agent class being so bad, but then, you know, are the Nets going to sign Malik Beasley to a huge contract?

Speaker 2 And then after the Nets, you look at who has available cap space.

Speaker 2 Detroit has cap space, but with Cade's new deal, because he's going to make all NBA, it's going to be $19 million in cap space as opposed to 24. Chicago's got 20 million in cap space.

Speaker 2 Memphis has like 17 and a half. There's like five teams that have between 15 and 12 million, and then you kind of run out of teams.

Speaker 2 So you start going, okay, if we know something about this year with Detroit, it's that spacing around Cade is really, really important.

Speaker 2 And as much as we all love Duran, he's not going to provide that spacing ever. So you really have to make sure that rotationally around that, you're doing those kinds of things.

Speaker 2 But Beasley's season this year, I'd be scared to death of what that price tag ends up being because another team may just say, screw it.

Speaker 2 Let's throw him a crazy contract because he was so good this year from three when I don't even know that I necessarily trust him. So, you know, Hardaway was a bigger number.

Speaker 2 I'd have to keep one of those guys. They can get creative because of their own cap space and how they want to structure those contracts.

Speaker 1 But Hardaway was an old contract, so he was like 16, 17 million range. He's not saying that.

Speaker 1 He's now a 6 to 8 million player, I think, in the market.

Speaker 2 I'd rather pay him 6 to 8 than pay Beasley what I think might be a scary number from the one other team that goes, ah, we've got this cap straight, so let's just use it on somebody and look at all the threes that he made.

Speaker 2 The biggest part of this is that Ivy's going to come back. And it's easy to forget that Ivy in 30 games shot 41% from three.
He was terrific. And I think in the playoffs, it shows

Speaker 2 as tough as Schroeder was, and he was big for them, and he fights like crazy because clearly he takes the Brunson thing personal.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Ivy being a second on-ball creator and getting his own at his size and his athleticism, I think that's actually going to solve some of the problem, especially if that three-point shooting holds up.

Speaker 2 So we know Cade needs spacing. I would not be in any kind of hurry to mess with this.

Speaker 2 Houston, I think, is on a different timeline because they have all these different guys that they still probably don't even know who they want to make decisions on.

Speaker 2 Maybe they do, but there's not necessarily enough assets for Detroit to have to get as creative as Houston could potentially get.

Speaker 2 I would really just be steady here if I were Detroit, making sure I don't let all of this shooting leave, but I think I'm probably going to be scared off by the Beasley price tag.

Speaker 1 So Phoenix calls and says, you know, Tobias and Thompson and Fontecchio actually works in the trade machine with KD and throw us some picks and let's start talking.

Speaker 1 You have the meeting?

Speaker 1 You have the internal meeting with the rest of the front office trying to figure it out? You definitely have to meet. KD will hear you.

Speaker 2 You have to have a meeting even if a man is asked for in the Houston one.

Speaker 1 I'm saying,

Speaker 1 do you have a small meeting with this with like your inner inner circle, or do you keep it open and invite a bunch of people?

Speaker 2 What is it again?

Speaker 1 Do you have a catered lunch for the meeting? How, how

Speaker 2 little Caesars?

Speaker 1 Yeah, probably good a deal. What, what is it again, Fontechio, which obviously gets just to bias Fontecchio, but Thompson would be the big piece, and then you'd throw a bunch of picks.

Speaker 1 You're gonna throw a pick. You do three firsts and two, two swaps, whatever the fuck it is

Speaker 1 for three years of KD.

Speaker 1 And then you then you bring in KD for 50 plus million. You'd sign sign them for the two-year extension.
So it's 150 million commitment.

Speaker 1 I personally wouldn't do it. I would just

Speaker 1 keep the because I don't think they're going to win the title or come close with any sort of trade. The only one that I think

Speaker 1 you really have to think about is if they could get Giannis

Speaker 1 and it's a mortgage to farm thing and basically everybody's available except Cade.

Speaker 1 Like Durin and Thompson are in it. Tobias's contract is in it.
Fontechio is in it. Picks are in it.
You're just like, we're going all in on Giannis, and we're going to have a Giannis Cade franchise.

Speaker 1 And we'll be able to fill it around. We'll be able to fill around those two guys and actually try to win the title.

Speaker 2 You could have the Tigers, too. I mean, if you're talking about Cade and Giannis on pick and roll, Lobs,

Speaker 1 you've probably thrown in some Tigers, maybe a couple of Red Wings.

Speaker 1 But yeah, I don't.

Speaker 2 The Durant thing really hinges more on, like, hey, what's the history here?

Speaker 2 Is he super happy everywhere he goes?

Speaker 2 So I think I'd be a little cautious if I were Detroit.

Speaker 2 You know, granted, we're talking about a team that just won their first playoff game since 2008, which seems just impossible.

Speaker 1 So we agree. Take your time, Detroit.

Speaker 1 Like, maybe even target February as, let's see where we are in February. And maybe.
We have some expiring. So we have some stuff.
I would not overpay Beasley. I'd probably go two years for him.

Speaker 1 Maybe like a 30 for two.

Speaker 1 30 for two. Maybe Hardaway, two for 16.

Speaker 1 Try to do something like that.

Speaker 1 You bring Ivy back.

Speaker 1 Would you do?

Speaker 1 Hmm.

Speaker 2 I was looking at this.

Speaker 1 You have another trade for me?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Is there.

Speaker 2 No, I'm not even going to do it.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to do it.

Speaker 2 It's stupid.

Speaker 1 Can you be the player you were thinking about?

Speaker 1 Is it Jalen?

Speaker 2 Jalen Green?

Speaker 2 Jalen Brown?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm always nervous you're going to suggest a Jalen Brown trade. This episode is brought to you by Rain X.

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LeBron has a $52 million player option.

Speaker 1 Kleiba and Vincent, $22.5 million combined expiring. Rui's on an $18.3 expiring.
Finney Smith's on a $15.4 expiring. This is all next year.

Speaker 1 And then Reeves is $14 and then $15 million. So they have some flexibility.

Speaker 1 Kept a couple picks.

Speaker 1 They clearly need a center and a rim runner. My question would be, would you trade Reeves if you could get a if you get a real

Speaker 1 some sort of rim protector

Speaker 1 somebody like a, like a richer man's Miles Turner in that range,

Speaker 1 would you trade Reeves or do you feel like you could build around Luca Reeves and 41-year-old LeBron, and then there's something there to try to win multiple playoff rounds?

Speaker 2 The first thing's going to be LeBron's number.

Speaker 2 Because depending on, now granted, he took just a sliver to keep them away from the most restrictions. And then there's a bunch of people being like, see, it's like, well, all right.

Speaker 1 Well, he drafted his son and gave him a four-year no-cut contract. Right.

Speaker 2 If he stays at around 50 million,

Speaker 2 they're going to be,

Speaker 2 I would say, on the practical things that would happen here, they're going to be six, seven million below the first apron.

Speaker 2 So if that puts him as his tax team, I don't know what kind of big you're signing for a five to six million dollar tax mid-level.

Speaker 1 You know what season it is, though, right now? It's ridiculous trades on social media for centers they'll never get. It's like they should get Bam out of bio.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh, cool. Well, they're a little involved

Speaker 1 now.

Speaker 2 I mean, basically, Jokic, once the coach was fired, was in the Lakers jersey, and now Giannis has been in one.

Speaker 1 And as much as

Speaker 2 I don't even know how they get Miles Turner, I don't know how they get anybody.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 the way they get somebody is if you have the two expirings.

Speaker 1 I mean, they could, the thing is, with all the expirings, they can work toward any kind of number, right? So, could they get some bonus?

Speaker 2 Okay, but what is going out that's exciting? Because this is where it comes back to the Austin Reeves thing, which I don't think they would want to do because he's really good and he's 26 years old.

Speaker 2 But if they thought, okay, what could we do to shake things up?

Speaker 2 Like as a BAM, like would you do Austin Reeves for Bam just in a vacuum? No. If you were the Lakers?

Speaker 1 No, I wouldn't do it if I'm Miami. I'm not doing that in a million years.
Why am I trading Bam

Speaker 1 for Austin Reeves?

Speaker 2 I'm just trying to see where your head's at with this.

Speaker 1 I was thinking Sabonis, I thought, was an interesting one because if I'm Sacramento. No.

Speaker 1 All right, God.

Speaker 1 If I'm Sacramento. I've put together this team that clearly doesn't work.

Speaker 1 I'm paying Sabonis more money than he's he's worth for somebody who's basically, if he's your most expensive guy, you're going to be

Speaker 1 a slightly better than 500 team. You're probably not going to have a huge playoff upside, and you're going to get torched offensively unless you put the perfect amount of guys around him.

Speaker 1 And could you give, could you give them a get out of jail-free card with that subonis contract?

Speaker 1 Be like, we'll give you all expirings and a couple firsts, and you can get out of Sabonis.

Speaker 1 I don't, I don't know if the kings are at that point with that contract yet. They might not be.

Speaker 1 Look at the contract. It is nasty.
It's 43.

Speaker 2 47 and then 50.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a lot.

Speaker 1 But I'll tell you this, paying LeBron $52 million when he's 41 years old is fucking crazy. That's a lot of money.

Speaker 2 But if you get the year you just got from him, he's worth it. I mean, I know the playoffs didn't close the way everybody expected.

Speaker 2 I think that's another reason of like even talking about Houston and Golden State. Like, you can sit here and make fun of, oh, look at this Lakers group.
They didn't even get out of the first round.

Speaker 2 This first round was all of this stuff was on the table. And granted, it was five games and it was felt over the course of the five games.
They weren't even close.

Speaker 2 I think it's a bad draw for the Lakers now that we saw it actually play out, even though nobody felt that way. Very few people felt that way at the beginning of it.
I don't really know.

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, we keep writing these teams down. Like, what would you do? What would you do?

Speaker 2 I think they need to figure out a way to try to get cheap rim runners, like a baseball team that doesn't love their starters three, four, and five.

Speaker 2 And then just all of a sudden you're like, Al Leiter's still around?

Speaker 1 Like

Speaker 1 you signed this guy?

Speaker 2 Like the Walker Kessler shit doesn't make a ton of sense.

Speaker 2 I don't think Dalton Connect gets Walt, gets, gets Kessler done.

Speaker 1 Well, I was thinking with Utah, who has too many guys plus a bunch of picks.

Speaker 1 And if they floated Austin Reefs to Utah, what's the reaction?

Speaker 1 Like, that's one where you could get a three-for-one and a four-for-one end picks.

Speaker 1 That feels weird. You already have Philipowski.

Speaker 1 We could put Austin Reeves, Philipowski, and Kessler. Could they Hoosier it out if they get Markman?

Speaker 1 And we could have Cooper Flag. Just

Speaker 1 I think Reeves on that contract, they could force it.

Speaker 2 Just Will Hardy going teams on the floor.

Speaker 1 I think Reeves at 14 and 15,

Speaker 1 when you throw expirings with him, you could get some really good players at that point. I don't know if you could get Bam out of bio.

Speaker 2 You're with me, though. It's an automatic no from Miami, as much as we love.

Speaker 1 Yeah, automatic.

Speaker 1 Okay. Automatic.
Can you think of anything where if you're the Lakers, you go, now

Speaker 2 I have to think about this a little bit.

Speaker 2 Embed?

Speaker 2 That's something the Lakers would like traditionally do.

Speaker 1 Talk about get out of jail free cards. I think this is

Speaker 1 a good thing. We'll give you all of our expirings

Speaker 1 and a first, and we'll get you out of the Joe Mbita business. Here's your get out of jail free card right now.
You don't have to deal with them anymore.

Speaker 2 I heard a mead was available at the trade deadline. It'd be irresponsible to not even ask.
Yeah, oh, yeah.

Speaker 1 Come on.

Speaker 1 But I mean, like, oh, we're getting on hoop type tomorrow. Yeah, baby.

Speaker 1 Hoop type.

Speaker 1 It may have been been a would you?

Speaker 1 But I think this happens all the time.

Speaker 2 So it shouldn't be something that's that big of a deal.

Speaker 1 We're getting so aggregated. But I don't know that you're doing your job.
How are you saving your job? Bobby Barack again? We could get aggregated by them, too.

Speaker 1 Let's try to get aggregated. I think Barack will pick that up.

Speaker 1 Post?

Speaker 2 Are you talking about Obama?

Speaker 1 No, I'm talking about Abid.

Speaker 1 You think it's surprising that

Speaker 2 Daryl would potentially float the idea?

Speaker 1 I just hadn't heard that. I was excited about the info.
I think Daryl talks to everybody all the time. I think he calls people constantly and they're like, oh, fuck, Daryl's on the phone.

Speaker 1 Tommy Shepard's like, I'm not in charge of the Wizards anymore. Stop bothering me.
What the fuck?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so, all right, that's my favorite Lakers move. All their expirings and two first-round picks, and they get MB'd in Philly.
So it's not Reeves.

Speaker 1 Reeves isn't in it. Oh, Reeves isn't in it.
He's not in it. You don't even get Reeves.

Speaker 1 We don't know if Embiid's ever playing again. I'm like, I'll take Embiid.
You can have one of our first-round picks, and here's some bunch of expirings.

Speaker 2 I think what they need to do is figure out a way to, and I don't know what's going to happen with all the decisions here, but if they're below the tax,

Speaker 2 can they use

Speaker 2 the non-taxpayer mid-level is a decent,

Speaker 2 you know, it's a decent, it's like 14 million. So could you go after,

Speaker 2 like, I know nobody likes Clint Capella anymore. He's 31 years old.
You put Clint with Luca.

Speaker 2 Does it work? Now, his numbers decline. Some of the advanced stuff declined.
He also played less. It also felt like Atlanta was waiting forever to have Okongwu be the guy.

Speaker 2 And clearly he balances them out a little bit better offensively. So maybe Clint.
isn't worth it at this point.

Speaker 1 I don't know. When was the last time you got super excited watching Clint Capella play basketball? Was it the last three years?

Speaker 2 Jackson Hayes catching lobs from Luke in the beginning was exciting to Lakers fans. They're like, unlock Jackson.
This is awesome. What about Jonathan Isaac? Is there a Jonathan Isaac?

Speaker 2 But I don't know if Orlando wants to be in the Gabe Vinson business.

Speaker 1 What about Mark Williams?

Speaker 1 Are we kindling?

Speaker 1 Batase, I'd be calling about

Speaker 1 Batase.

Speaker 1 I'd be what about DeAndre Ayton?

Speaker 1 Now we're talking. 35.
35. Now's now.

Speaker 1 Now we're talking. DeAndre Ayton.
So a couple expirings.

Speaker 1 Do you think when they shop Rui around all summer while pretending that they really like him, they're just hoping nobody watches the rebounding in game five?

Speaker 1 He was really good for us this year.

Speaker 1 Can we see the tape of game five? It's been destroyed. We don't have it.

Speaker 2 Is there a Rui?

Speaker 2 Because there's nothing that screams Lakers more than likely.

Speaker 1 I love that DeAndre Aten idea. LaMask can teach him how to win.
Right, right.

Speaker 2 So all this talent, still really young.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 He's at 35 million. So you load up Rui, you throw in a pick, maybe a little Dalton Connect action in there.
Ooh, Dalton. Right.
So you start going about the trade machine right now.

Speaker 2 What's the point, right? Why does Portland want Rui? Well, maybe they don't want Rui, but is there some version of this?

Speaker 2 They're grabbing an asset of getting somebody out culture-wise, change of scenery. The change of scenery pieces for DeAndre Ayton in a Lakers uniform alone.
Those are going to,

Speaker 2 writers are going to have beach houses, people clicking on those fucking things.

Speaker 1 LeBron has wanted to play with somebody like this for his entire career.

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 1 Ayton's never played with Luca, and Luca's never played with a stretch five like Luca still remembers how good Ayton was in their one play series. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Oh, yeah, poor Zingas. Yeah,

Speaker 1 made it to an NBA Finals.

Speaker 2 It was too soon. Peyton, you know.

Speaker 1 So you're you're saying Rui,

Speaker 1 I feel like they could, I think they could keep Rui. I think they could get Aiton for Maxie Kliba, Gabe Vincent, and another contract and throw a first-round pick.

Speaker 1 And Portland's super happy to dump that last eight in year.

Speaker 2 So just a first-round pick.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And I think I'd even say top four protected.
Great. We solved the Lakers.

Speaker 1 Milwaukee Bucks, I have no solution for. I really wanted to come on here and say something provocative and smart and forward-thinking.
And I don't know what it is.

Speaker 1 But the thing is, if Giannis says, I don't want to be traded, then do you trade him?

Speaker 1 What if Giannis says, I'm happy here? I don't want to leave Milwaukee. I don't trade him.

Speaker 2 I don't take any calls. Yeah, I don't either.

Speaker 1 My goal would be to keep Giannis.

Speaker 2 The forgotten zone of this league is,

Speaker 1 okay, we're screwed.

Speaker 2 And you laid it out perfectly last week. Like when you really dug into how bad the future draft

Speaker 1 stuff is for them.

Speaker 2 So when you're married to having none of that coming in, then you can't,

Speaker 2 no one ever wants to hear it.

Speaker 2 But there's a lot of like honest conversations where teams, believe it or not, are opening the season going, all right, we have Giannis and we'll probably win like 45 to 48 games.

Speaker 2 And that's probably who we are. But at least we have Giannis.
I mean, hell, Atlanta's been doing that with Trey this whole time. Charlotte's going to keep doing it.

Speaker 2 At least Giannis is one of the best players in the world. So if Giannis doesn't want to go anywhere, that's enough for me.
And I'll just be like, all right, hopefully we can get competitive.

Speaker 2 And then one year is a short amount of time. Who knows what happens? The problem is for Giannis.

Speaker 2 And look, this might be a league-wide thing, but you know how we always talk about like, oh, this guy likes this guy and that guy wants to go there. And Glenn Davis is now in Orlando because of this.

Speaker 2 And they brought in Jarrett Jack because Chris Paul likes him. Like all of these things that we used to talk about.

Speaker 2 Granted, it was the big three in Miami and then everybody trying to figure out how to team up and all that stuff. It feels like that doesn't necessarily happen as much anymore.
So

Speaker 1 there's more animosity than we've had in a while.

Speaker 2 But Jokic isn't going to be somebody who's going to be coming up through the AAU ranks and having those relationships with the other stars.

Speaker 2 I mean, every star who's like on the fence about sticking around should want to go play in Denver, but I don't know that he has the relationship with other players. I think the same goes for Giannis.

Speaker 2 And I just don't know a norm of this league. It doesn't feel like it's as normal as guys being like, hey, let's like Paul George and Kawhi and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 2 I don't know that we have that as much anymore. It doesn't mean it can't happen again, but if Giannis is just happy there, then that's enough for me if I'm running the Bucs.
I don't care.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I know we're not going to win the title next year.

Speaker 1 He'd have to ask out. And even if he asks out, I'm not trading him unless I can get a trade I'm pumped about.
And that's it.

Speaker 1 I'm not going to like give you away for 60 cents on the dollar because you don't want to play for us anymore. Like you signed an extension.

Speaker 1 Let me try to figure out a good trade for us.

Speaker 1 Can't figure it out. Let's take it in this season and try to figure it out in the December, February range once eight teams are unhappy with how their season is going.
And then we'll do the trade.

Speaker 1 But you have our word at some point, we're going to do it.

Speaker 1 Just keep playing hard and we'll figure it out.

Speaker 1 And then you kind of keep your fingers crossed that Dame can come back from Achilles surgery in five months. Dame sets the record for coming back.
That's

Speaker 1 they're,

Speaker 1 you know, they made two trades where they gave up an inordinate amount of picks for one player because they wanted to win the title. And they won the 2021 title.

Speaker 1 They couldn't win it with Dame, but they traded a shitload of draft picks. Like this is what happens.
If you're mortgaging all this stuff to win now, everyone forgets that part.

Speaker 1 It's like, oh man, they got to get Gianna some help. It's like, they did.
They made two massive trades and gave away a bunch of assets to try to get him help.

Speaker 1 And now they're here.

Speaker 1 This is how it works. This is how the league works.

Speaker 2 And they have Kuzma on the books.

Speaker 1 Well, that one neither of us agreed with because we watch basketball. I don't know how anybody could watch basketball this season and thought Kuzma was going to make a difference.

Speaker 1 That's a huge, I mean, he's like 23 million in these two years. They only had a 43 over the next two.

Speaker 1 The Heat got knocked out, and I don't really know what the Heat do either, where you have a Bam Hero Wiggins foundation, right? Wiggins? Wiggins. He's still there.
All their guys are under contract.

Speaker 2 You want to go through a tough book here. It's brutal.
Hero and Bam, fine.

Speaker 2 The fact that you're only going to be paying them, I think, before the Bam extension kicks in here, or, you know, because it's going to jump up. He's going to be like a $50 million a year player.

Speaker 1 Hero got barbecued in the Cleveland series.

Speaker 2 He did, but his shot making.

Speaker 1 He's pretty special. Maybe he should be a six-man.

Speaker 2 He should be a third option, I would say. But, you know, sometimes we look at guys and be like, okay, cool.

Speaker 2 It'd be awesome if we had two dudes that were better than him, and he would be our third option. Bam is not enough offensively as much as we all love him.
They're on the books next year.

Speaker 2 They've got Wiggins for 28 and then a player option, probably going to pick that one up, 30.1 million in 26, 27. Terry Rogier's 26.6.

Speaker 2 Duncan Robinson, one of the few remaining early termination options, just at $19,8 million. Kyle Anderson's on the books for nine.

Speaker 2 So they have a bunch of contracts of dudes that probably are not in demand.

Speaker 1 The Butlers will murder them.

Speaker 2 Unless somebody said, I am so mad, I have one year left, I'm only going there.

Speaker 2 Why are you going there? Because you love Bam and Tyler Hero?

Speaker 1 The only reason I wouldn't count them out is just because they've pulled rabbits out of the hat over and over again over the last 15 years.

Speaker 1 Every time we felt like we had hit rock bottom, then they'd make some even the Butler thing, which is one of the craziest

Speaker 1 transaction sequences in the recent history of the league, and they pulled it off. And I still don't know how they got anyone to take Kassan Whiteside.
I still don't understand it.

Speaker 1 But this time, it seems bleak because

Speaker 1 I thought, you know,

Speaker 1 the one guy we didn't mention that I wonder is out there in some form who I think

Speaker 1 would be considered a real asset is Jaron Jackson if Memphis is handcuffed at all by being able to spend as much money as it's going to take to keep him.

Speaker 1 If he makes all NBA this year and his

Speaker 1 different triggers come in. I just

Speaker 1 monitoring that one.

Speaker 2 I'd be happy to be in the Jaron Jackson business, even with his limitations.

Speaker 2 Well, I really started to like him even more this year,

Speaker 2 even though I know you get mad about his fouls, but you should get mad about his fouls.

Speaker 1 I don't, the rebounding makes me madder than the fouls.

Speaker 1 Can you get nine rebounds?

Speaker 2 I would say down 30 to OKC and running Jaron Jackson post-ups

Speaker 1 clear out.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't really know what's going on there, but I mean, that series was such a mess.

Speaker 1 I forgot to give you one Giannis situation.

Speaker 1 If OKC somehow lost this round or next round, huge upset loss,

Speaker 1 would Presty, who, by the way, has only made the finals once and lost the finals 4-1 and has not been back since?

Speaker 1 Even though we all agree he's one of the best GMs of this century, but at some point he hasn't won titles or even finals games. I wonder if he would just be like,

Speaker 1 fuck it, and do like a giant Giannis thing.

Speaker 1 And if you're Giannis and you could go to OKC and be on this incredible team, like that's a team that's actually built to make a 160 cents on the dollar trade. They wanted to.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I do wonder about that because I would say that that's kind of the lingering, you know, as much as Bucks fans hate all the Giannis trade stuff that's gone on forever.

Speaker 2 And then he signs an extension. I mean, this has been going on for a long time with the Giannis speculation.

Speaker 2 And then sometimes when you hear the speculation, you wonder, like, have I heard anything specific? Is there anything new that sounds like it's very specific?

Speaker 2 Or is it everybody just repeating everybody else that thinks like eventually he's going to ask out? And it's been going on for such a long time. Again, in this time, he actually signed an extension.

Speaker 2 So Bucks fans, much like Cavs fans with the Mitchell stuff, because they were hearing the same shit from all of us over and over again. It's like a nice little victory lap.
We were ready.

Speaker 2 Hey, guess what?

Speaker 1 We were ready.

Speaker 2 The OKC one

Speaker 2 is

Speaker 2 like, should it matter? I know it's kind of back to the beginning conversation about Houston. Should it matter

Speaker 2 on where they're at in the playoffs?

Speaker 1 Oh, I think if OKC doesn't win this year, they have to really think.

Speaker 1 We're really close. How do we not win the title? We were favored.
All the maths said we were going to win the title.

Speaker 1 If they get bounced in one of these next three rounds,

Speaker 1 i think that's i think that's the the biggest overreaction team even though pressures doesn't overreact i think you'd have to really think about it

Speaker 1 like what's the point of having all these assets and all these picks if you're not going to cash them in at some point like like this isn't this isn't blackjack where you just get to stack chips like at some point you have to try to win the title and they're they have the best chance this year but you know if giannis is on the table and they can make a run on him and they're and they're bummed out because they couldn't get it done in the playoffs when it it mattered.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I still think my bet would be in Houston. If I had to bet on a team, I think the Houston thing makes so much sense in so many different ways.

Speaker 1 And I think it's a good spot for him. I think it's good for everybody.
That's the trade that makes sense to me.

Speaker 2 Is there a trade built around Chet or Jalen Williams and all the draft picks that you'd have to sift through which ones you thought were the more valuable ones if you were Horst where

Speaker 1 the best one?

Speaker 1 well you insist on chet right if you're if you're milwaukee you're like chet has to be in it i'm not even discussing this unless call me back when chet's in the trade wait if you're presty or stone what's a quicker no them asking for chet or asking stone and houston for a men presti yeah i think a men's a quicker no because chet's been hurt twice already said two injuries already

Speaker 1 right

Speaker 2 yeah i think you're right the injury thing i can't I can't throw a counter argument to that. You're right.

Speaker 1 He's also one of those guys when you watch him run around, you're like, ah,

Speaker 2 I don't know. Did you watch that third quarter against Memphis?

Speaker 1 No, listen, you don't have to sell me on chat. It's just, you know, he said

Speaker 1 two injuries is 23. So that part does scare me a tiny bit.
So I think when you ask me quick or no, I just think Thompson's like, not trading that dude. Shut up.
Hang up. But if I'm OKC, I'm trying to.

Speaker 1 Now I'm assuming I've had some sort of terrible playoff loss, probably trying to start with, how about Hartenstein?

Speaker 1 And then,

Speaker 1 and how about, how about you, you seen Kayson Wallace? He's really good, huh?

Speaker 2 You hear Rasula talk about Usman Jang?

Speaker 1 See our lottery pick? We have the seventh pick in the draft. Like anyone in the lottery?

Speaker 1 Yeah, you're, you're moving that way. But that's the thing.
If Giannis is in, if Giannis is actually going to be traded, good people are going to be in the trade.

Speaker 1 You don't just get to not put a good person in the trade.

Speaker 2 You know, it's the thing yeah but when you were talking houston and you're like getting to meet shangoon jalen green it's like

Speaker 2 can i have any of the other guys so you would do jabari

Speaker 1 shingoon now i i don't know what the salary i think shangoon jabari eason

Speaker 1 and jalen green at least three but maybe even all four are all in the trade right

Speaker 1 if i'm not getting thompson

Speaker 1 then I get everybody else. That's where we're starting.
Just keep giving giving me dudes.

Speaker 2 We got to wrap it up.

Speaker 1 Do you have any, you want to do a Bill Belichick update quick?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I have a small

Speaker 2 piece of stuff here.

Speaker 1 Yeah, let's see.

Speaker 2 You know what? Why don't you start, though? Because I got to look up.

Speaker 2 I got to make sure I got my facts straight here.

Speaker 1 I was trying to think that maybe with coaches,

Speaker 1 maybe it just doesn't end well. And that's how this usually goes with guys who are super powerful

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 fly a little too close to the sun and are used to controlling their circumstances, which becomes harder and harder as you get older and you have to stay on top of the ball.

Speaker 1 That maybe this goes worse more times than we realize. And when we're talking about, I can't believe this is happening to Belichick.

Speaker 1 Maybe we shouldn't be surprised that it's happening to somebody in their mid-70s, that they're making some bad decisions because we see this in every aspect of life.

Speaker 1 It's like, what's he doing with this girl? It's like, well, you know,

Speaker 1 this is

Speaker 1 how life goes.

Speaker 2 I don't know that I care about the personal part of it all that much because I really do

Speaker 2 kind of want to like leave people alone, you know, on that, that part of it, even though we spent our entire careers talking about people.

Speaker 1 But this has leaked into the actual running this UNC program in a variety of ways, which is how it became a bigger story. And also that interview was so crazy.

Speaker 1 And for somebody who has been so intensely private, where you just know nothing about him ever, and he, you know, and then for that to happen the way it happened is just like, it's just really weird.

Speaker 1 He would have been a top five draft pick of, I would never expect anything like this to happen to this person.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's all true, too. And I think when you probably look at him evaluating players and being like, what am I bringing into the locker room? Right.
He didn't want free thinkers.

Speaker 2 He wanted people that were single-minded. I mean, when you played for the Patriots, you weren't even supposed to live in fucking Boston.

Speaker 2 Like, that was thought of as a bad thing if you were on the Patriots and lived in Boston.

Speaker 1 No further than Attleboro. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're going to stay right here.

Speaker 1 No offense to that part of the state, but Providence too far.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 this is, if he were evaluating Bill, the person is Bill, he'd be like, what, what's going on here?

Speaker 2 I remember Stoops telling me the story about Gronkowski where Belichick called about Gronk before the draft.

Speaker 1 And he was like,

Speaker 1 what's this guy an asshole? Tight end.

Speaker 1 That was it.

Speaker 2 And he was like, no, man, he's the best. He's the best.
And, you know, look, you picked him Hall of Fame, Super Bowls later. Like, it all worked out.
But Bill always was very big on prioritizing.

Speaker 2 Like, I don't want any extra shit.

Speaker 2 So if he were a booster with those values that he would take from his time running an NFL team, if he were a booster running a college football program and the money guy behind it and then was evaluating the situation of the head coach being involved in something like this, like Bill would be the first guy to be like, this is all stupid shit.

Speaker 2 We are giving people all the, like, the reason his brilliance.

Speaker 1 Intentional distractions.

Speaker 2 To think how simple his brilliance was, and even in the times I didn't like it, where he just couldn't couldn't answer a question because he knew if he answered a question, it just opened up another question.

Speaker 2 And then he's like looking around at the world, going, Why do you answer any of this stuff? So I may not have always loved it.

Speaker 2 And again, it wasn't like I was a reporter who had to deal with any of this stuff, but there'd be times I didn't love it.

Speaker 2 I didn't love some of the press conferences where there were really serious issues and it was like, you're going to play this card again?

Speaker 2 Like, you want to be, but I admired the tactic because it was actually really smart.

Speaker 2 It was like, I remember when the Feeding the Monster book came out, Felger and I, Felger had his radio show at the ESPN affiliate, right? Yeah. And so I come in and it was one of the funniest.

Speaker 2 So it's Seth Manookin, I think was his name, the author. He did Feeding the Monster.
It was like this all access thing that John Henry wanted because everybody was jealous of Moneyball.

Speaker 2 So Felger has Theo Epstein ready to go. It's the big Feeding the Monster interview.
I powered through the book. I've written down all my questions because I filled them with Felger for a month.

Speaker 2 And I promise there's a point to this story here. I know you love these long-winded ones.
So I show up to that radio station because I didn't really work there.

Speaker 2 It was just this month that I was there. And you know, me, all prepped up, all excited.
And I think the world of Theo, so I'm excited to even talk to him. And Felger looks at me and he goes,

Speaker 2 We've been mapping out the interview.

Speaker 2 I don't think we're going to have time for you to say anything.

Speaker 2 And I was like,

Speaker 2 great.

Speaker 2 But it was Felger's show. It wasn't mine.

Speaker 1 Sounds like Schrager during the NFL draft. We're going to throw to you and Schefter again.

Speaker 1 Just smile for a minute.

Speaker 1 By the way, get up.

Speaker 2 Just absolutely dissing

Speaker 2 the combat odds for Schrager. Schrager's a big dude.
They had like Schefter as the favorite in some Royal Rumble, and Schrager had the lowest odds. And I felt

Speaker 1 like 6'2.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's a big guy. So, anyway,

Speaker 2 so Felger looks at me and says, We're not going to have any time for you. And I'm like, oh, okay, fucking awesome.
Of course, you know, back then, insecure and pissed. But it was the right thing.

Speaker 2 It was Felger's fucking show. And he wanted to map out the interview.
He wanted to control all the timeline of things.

Speaker 1 So we crack the mics.

Speaker 2 We bring in Theo. We're back from commercial.

Speaker 1 And Felger's like, all right, you know, Theo Epstein, GM, or whatever.

Speaker 2 He goes, okay, so, you know, on page 14 is what really jumped out. And Theo's like, you know, I haven't read the book.

Speaker 2 He fucking killed, he ruined Felger's entire plan because he thought he would at least know when the book was about him. And Theo just stopped him and was like, yeah.

Speaker 2 And it, and then Felger's looking at me like, you got anything?

Speaker 2 Do you have anything in there for somebody that's not going to to acknowledge that the book even exists? And that's Belichick's playbook.

Speaker 1 All right.

Speaker 2 So that part is really interesting because it completely contradicts everything that he's valued.

Speaker 2 The last thing that I would say about this, and this is the part that always pisses me off, is whenever Bud Seelig used to do this constantly, people be like, hey, baseball, it's kind of losing momentum.

Speaker 2 And by the way, all of those people were right. What's going on with baseball? What's going on with baseball? And Bud would point the TV deals.
Like, look what we renewed for.

Speaker 2 Look at the growth on this TV deal versus the last rights deal we did. Conference commissioners all over the country do it it every single time they re, look how great of a job I'm doing.

Speaker 2 Look at what our new deal was compared to what our last deal was.

Speaker 2 Belichick in this email actually says, I will say again, quote, that I want this book to be presented as a look at my professional life and how I did my job on the way up to and as the leader of an organization that grew from a $500 million franchise to an $8 billion

Speaker 2 organization that played in 10 Super Bowls. The Super Bowls, awesome.

Speaker 2 If you're suggesting that your run in New England increased the value of the team from 500 million to 8 billion, then what the fuck is Brady worth?

Speaker 1 And by the way, you were awesome.

Speaker 2 Maybe you've done it better than anybody else. No one would ever deny that.
But that way of thinking is if you have as much to do with the value of a franchise in the NFL as the TV rights growth does.

Speaker 2 Like, that's insane. That's delusional to think that.

Speaker 1 Like, like you write that and be like, oh, wow, are any of the other NFL franchises worth a lot more than they were in the 90s?

Speaker 2 Well, of course, the answer is yes. That's a really.

Speaker 1 Even the Bengals are worth more. Yeah, like even that's a very

Speaker 2 most people may not understand that. We understand it.
People listening to this podcast understand that.

Speaker 2 But to get to that kind of closing statement of like, this team was worth 500 million before me and now it's worth 8 million, dude, you were awesome.

Speaker 2 You did it again at a level that is unsustainable in the NFL. But the value has way more to do with TV rights than it does you.

Speaker 1 There's one other level to that point.

Speaker 1 It explains a lot about what happened from the mid-2010s on with Brady and Belichick.

Speaker 1 Because everyone was like, Patriot Way, Patriot Way, we're just about Super Bowls, but there was clearly some sort of ego thing.

Speaker 1 And it's two guys that really understood their place in history in a whole bunch of different ways, right?

Speaker 1 And it was, I was like, we're in this together, there's no credit, but the credit thing was a big part of it. And Garoppolo's in there, and he's really thinking about it.
I never wanted to believe it.

Speaker 1 I never, when Rickersham and people like that were reporting about it, and I was like, fuck that. I don't want to hear this.
Stop trying to cause trouble.

Speaker 1 But there clearly was a ton of trouble and i think when you win when you win titles like that we've seen this over we saw with the last dance documentary you know and you saw the kraus jordan you saw jordan pippin who no longer talk they hated kraus

Speaker 1 um the only one that really

Speaker 1 stuff at the end is crazy yeah they seem to get like phil jackson but then you look at the kobe shaq stuff with phil jackson and phil jackson's writing books The credit grabbing that happens when you've had real success is surprising because the rings

Speaker 1 should be the best example of how much success you've had, but for whatever reason. So, anyway, I think that really explained to me why Brady didn't end up with the Patriots because

Speaker 1 what everybody was writing about and doing the sports radio topic of who's more responsible for all the Super Bowls, Belichick or Brady, and the right answer was always both.

Speaker 1 They needed each other, and that's the answer. But clearly, they both kind of thought each of them was more responsible than the other.
So, when I read that paragraph, I thought, man,

Speaker 1 Belichick must have been so pissed when Brady had that Tampa season where he won the title. Because clearly he does give a shit about all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And all the media he did last year, the fact that he's writing this book, some of the documentaries, and we always thought, no, he doesn't care. He doesn't care.
He clearly, really cares.

Speaker 1 And so I read that same email, and I'm like, oh, he really did. He really does have a massive ego about all this stuff that he would say that.

Speaker 2 It made me wonder, too, if he was

Speaker 2 thinking he's owed more

Speaker 2 when you start throwing around

Speaker 1 figures.

Speaker 1 Um, I mean, when Kraft bought the Patriots, they were ready to move to St. Louis, and they didn't.
He kind of saved the team. They were the black sheep of the

Speaker 1 local sports scene. And then Brady and Belichick, I think both of them probably built it up.
But like, you know, we saw this happen when LeBron was in Cleveland, right?

Speaker 1 Cleveland was like a top four franchise in all the Forbes lists. And then he left and went to Miami and they were like 28th.
And then he came back in 2014.

Speaker 1 It's like top five franchises in Cleveland's in there. So, you know, you get the right asset and it does make the franchise.

Speaker 1 But the final thing is I'm not diminishing his value, but I'm just, I know what you're building.

Speaker 2 The value of all these franchises

Speaker 2 has way more to do with television rights.

Speaker 1 But do you think that even the accomplishments? But you don't think he put that in there partly because of what Kraft did with that Dynasty Apple thing?

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's 100%.

Speaker 1 When

Speaker 1 Kraft's just rewriting history as the three of us, that last 10 years, I was just holding on, I was holding us together with all the dumb shit he said of that.

Speaker 1 And now it's just these guys are like in their in credit grab bukake, just going at it,

Speaker 1 just battling each other. It took us two hours to get a porn reference out of it.
Yes, sorry.

Speaker 1 It's over the two-hour mark. I got

Speaker 1 maybe I'll get aggregated again. It'd be great.
Got to get those aggregated or something.

Speaker 1 Anyway, we

Speaker 1 Belichick's a classic example of if you had just left four years ago and just moved to Wyoming,

Speaker 1 done the Johnny Carson. Yeah, I don't know.
We would talk about you so highly.

Speaker 1 When you've been competing your entire life, I don't blame guys for wanting to hang on to the whole thing.

Speaker 1 The Brady Tampa. Let's talk about that part.

Speaker 2 That's my second favorite Brady Super Bowl.

Speaker 1 I'm talking about the UNC

Speaker 1 24-year-old PR person controlling his life. People wondering if it's elder abuse, like really like dark shit.

Speaker 1 People, like, this has gotten to the point that like my wife's friends are asking me about, hey, what's going on with Bill Belichick and this girl?

Speaker 1 I read like on Apple News, they had a story about how crazy, like, that's what this has reached. That CBS Sunday morning thing was like his version of Tom Cruise on the Oprah couch.

Speaker 1 Like it's, it's part of his legacy now.

Speaker 2 I just just don't understand somebody that understands how the media works as well as they do, which clearly he does, what he thought that was going to be. Like, hey, this is the deal.

Speaker 2 You come in, you promote the book, and we ask you questions about it.

Speaker 1 No, but maybe, but this is what people are worried about. Maybe he's not

Speaker 1 batting a thousand right now.

Speaker 2 I'm not ready to go there. We'll see what kind of defense they're running.

Speaker 1 That Sunday morning thing was insane. That was insane.
I never in a million kajillion years would have guessed that he would be in that position.

Speaker 1 Joe Brunte, maybe.

Speaker 1 Out of all people, that was.

Speaker 1 That would be a good pod.

Speaker 2 Five guys most likely that you would expect that to happen to.

Speaker 1 That would be good.

Speaker 1 Before we go, picks for round two.

Speaker 1 Celtics,

Speaker 1 you still going Cleveland?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think Brunson having to go through the gauntlet of options as opposed to being able to switch into Beasley Hardaway and Dennis Schruder, even though Schruder, I think, competed like crazy against him.

Speaker 2 I think it's a little different challenge. And I think Kat is going to have to cover a lot more ground than he did against Duran.

Speaker 2 I'm still holding out hope. Garland's going to come back game two, but today was super impressive.
I'm totally with you.

Speaker 2 And you've been higher on the Pacers than I've been, and you might be right about it. OK, C,

Speaker 2 no issues, and I have Minnesota.

Speaker 1 Is there any case for Denver?

Speaker 2 I mean, you know, I could sit here and say, oh, you know, the craziest thing about even the elimination game is Jokic and Murray weren't even going crazy.

Speaker 2 I think by Jokic's our standards for Jokic, this wasn't some like

Speaker 2 Jokic fest for seven games.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Well, you know, that they were the first team with six players with 15 or more points in a game seven in NBA history.

Speaker 1 It's so everyone else. So those game sevens, though, like Christian Brown became, right? That was the Grant Williams game for Christian Brown where he's just huge.

Speaker 1 Like the game sevens, there's always the random. It's the buddy field.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you always see those. That would have been a fun one to predict for a fan to a bet.

Speaker 1 Rosillo, you got two pods this week. And then I will see you live on Sunday night, which will not be as fun as this one.
Our guy, Steph Curry, came through. Good to see you, my friend.

Speaker 1 All right, that's it for the podcast. Thanks to Gahal and Eduardo.
Thanks to Rosillo.

Speaker 1 Thanks to basketball for giving us two game sevens over the weekend. We thought we might get zero.
I will be back on Tuesday. Don't forget, huge rewatchables coming on Monday.
Get ready.

Speaker 1 You can follow all the clips and videos from this podcast on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel. And I will see you on Tuesday.

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