Talking Basketball, NBA, and Hoops With Ryen Russillo

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First, our friends from Pearl Jam.

all right we are taping this a little after 12 30 pacific time just watch celtics nuggets that we're going to talk about later the star of shock caller two is here ryan rusillo uh you look great i the the listeners can't hear it can't see it but you got like a it's like an early 2000s Red Sox setup guy, Fu Manchu kind of look. Is that a Van Dyke or a Fu Manchu? Yeah, I don't know.
I was looking at some old pictures of myself. Well, I usually break this out a couple of times a year and I did it when I got my license picture taken last summer.
And the picture of my license is just horrifying. And so for reason i don't know i just i used to do when i was in my 20s i usually do do it every now and then so we're uh we're back i love the board with your face moments not just you but me i have them too where you're just like ah fuck it grow a mustache didn't you do it for pTI? I did.
We did mustache week. Me and Levitard, we just both grew like big, bushy, like buddy cop mustaches.
Yeah, it's fun. Lately, I've been shaving.
That feels like a move now to be like, yeah, I'm going to shave like a couple times a week. Back with the shaving.
Honestly, if you went clean shaven, you're just getting ahead of where this is all going in a couple of years because there's going to be a stretch like anything that's, whether it's fashion or hairstyles. I mean, this is not insightful.
It's all cyclical, but there's going to be a stretch years from now where you're like, what the hell was going on? Everyone just had a beard. Like everybody just had a beard.
I remember being so early to the beard that I showed up to the national championship game with it when it was Oregon-Auburn. And Todd McShay and Jesse Palmer on the sideline being like, you didn't shave? And I'm like, I'm at a football game.
I'm not even on TV. And they're like, yeah, but dude, you look terrible.
It is funny. So how many years ago was that? Like early 2010s range? Yeah.
Mid-20 Cam was still in college. So it's like, I think it's 15 years ago.
That game. I remember between the first and second years when I was on the countdown show and I showed up for something during the summer and I had a beard and everybody was like, you're not going to have that on TV, right? Like freaked out by it.
It does feel like the beard, the beard stuff has shifted by the last... And then COVID, it just

was full bloom. COVID

was kind of the apex mountain for

beards. Everyone was just like, I don't care anymore.

Yeah, that cranked it up.

That was the home run PED

phase of beard.

We were like, Luis Gonzalez has how many

home runs?

It's the early 2000s.

Yeah, because then it's a bit like the arm sleeve thing.

Like the early arm sleeve tack guy, you're like, all right, I don't probably don't want

to mess with that guy.

You know, it's like somebody who's really friendly, but they blink a lot and just go,

I don't want to stay away from him.

Oh, yeah.

So over blinking is a fair thing for you a little bit?

Yes. Certain size, a guy that blinks a lot want nothing to do with it never thought about that tip no it's a good tip yeah it's a good tip for everybody yeah yeah so anyway i think the sleeve the sleeve thing turned into i just felt like there should have been some prerequisite like you're gonna get double sleeves like you're getting arm sleeves you know now i don't and so i think the beard was some kind of transition off of that i likely will never be clean shaven like i cannot even remember the last time just full up lather i don't even have shaving cream at my house i would have a beard way more often but mine just gets white and it actually it used to yeah right used to hide some stuff but now it's like you actually look younger when you don't have the beard.
There often, but mine just gets white. And it actually, it used to hide some stuff,

but now it's like you actually look younger when you don't have the beard.

There's been some weird phases ever since I could shave.

I think sideburns were a really weird stretch

in that 92 to 94 stage inspired by Brandon and Dylan

on 90210.

And then all of a sudden people were doing different

sideburns things for like a year and a half. That was weird.
There was also the high flat top look was in for a little bit. Like there's definitely been some weird stages looking back on what was going on there.
Well, the sideburns thing is again, just the cycle of let me see how low I can bring these down. And it was fine.
And then everybody was like, all right, get rid of these. But I remember the first moment.
I first moment i mean i couldn't even shave like who am i kidding but the first moment guys in junior high for like travel basketball you know there'd be a couple early bloomers if you know what i'm talking about and you're just yeah what the hell is this guy doing he's got a shaving kit and like is this guy from william manic like what's going on and so then dudes who couldn't even shave me being one of them you just felt left out so. So guys started shaving their sideburns up as high as possible.
Right. That was really, I didn't like that.
I hope that never comes back. But yeah, there was also, there was just a lot of chin shit in the early 2000s out of boredom.
I feel like that was baseball related because baseball really had that big comeback in the late 90s,

early 2000s, steroids driven, Yankees driven, Yankees versus Red Sox, Bonds and the home run

McGuire. And then the relievers and the home run sluggers all started having weird facial thing.

And it just took off. Remember Duncan tried it? Duncan had a year in the early 2000s when Duncan went with like the shaved head, a little like your look right now, but it was like, what are doing?

You're a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy.

I'm a good guy. I'm a good guy.
I'm a good guy. early 2000s when Duncan went with like the shaved head.
Got a little like your look right now, but it was like, what are you doing? You're Tim Duncan. Why are you trying this? What are you trying to look like? He almost looked like Dennis Haysbert.
The white beard call is right though, because now I'm at the point where if I let it go, it's patchy in areas where it's not colored. And then I have buddies that are dying their beards.
And then I, all I can think about is Richard Kimball. And I just think like, I don't know, man, like I might, I might want to like at this point, I don't know that you're necessarily hiding your age, but there are definitely dudes that when they go full beard now, I mean, even though you've got this salt and pepper thing you're going way more salt than pepper yeah and you've aged yourself so much so you know i don't i remember when cowherd's contract was up i think he had red hair and i was like well he joined fs1 he went he went blonde for a bit i've never died or done anything i just can't do it i'm just like if if nature is taking me certain directions, so be it.
It's the way it's going to have to go. I had a really hard time having that ball patch in my head.
It was just brutal. Yeah, the celebrity game really shook you.
The high camera shot. Yeah, I mean, if I see John Barry to this day, it might be on.
Oh, he mentioned it? My buddies wanted to kill John Barry. Did did he make a joke about it he talked about it the entire fourth quarter apparently i can't even go back and watch the tape it's too traumatic wow i wonder if that's just the youtubes oh it's all over the place so my my friends i'm talking about and again in massachusetts friends that aren't exactly the most supportive people yeah um scholars have argued well they't even argue about it.
And so they were like, Hey, what the fuck is up with John Barry? And I, right. I don't know.
Like I just got done with the game, you know, like I'm, I'm sitting here trying to ISO against hunger games. And I got the secretary of education telling me to calm down a little bit.
And then I had to sub myself. Which hunger games person? Uh, was it a Josh or that little the he was smaller right josh yeah yeah i pushed him pretty hard at one point because i just wasn't playing well i'd actually had like a crack in my leg and um you know whatever now i'm making excuses so were you the guy who tried to josh hutchinson were you the guy who tried too hard in the celebrity game because in my game it, it was the actor Jesse Williams who just was going all out.
I didn't play Russell Westbrook. I didn't look, I shouldn't, I was not a celebrity.
Um, you know, ESPN was usually pretty good about trying to get somebody on air involved in some of that stuff. I liked it.
Whatever it was. Yeah.
It was just, obviously I'd want to do it, but I clearly wish I had gotten a play before that. Because then when I went back home to talk to buddies that I played with regularly, they're like, you're terrible now.
They're like, we talked so much shit about, like, they were like, look out, he's going to go off in this thing. And I was like, yep, I know.
But then on the other side, it was a bit like when Kyrie was having his playoff run last year, where even if he went four for 20, people would be like, his joy is back and it's unbelievable. Yeah.
So the threshold for like a good Kyrie stretch was pretty low. And I think it was the same.
And so when I got back to ESPN, people were like, oh, you played really well. And I was like, eh, not really.
And then you got called bald, I guess, for a straight hour. So that would be a good NBA award at the end of the year that we should vote on.

The Joy is Back award.

We have to vote whose Joy was the most back.

Who's the Joy of Back winner this year?

Next year, the odds on Fanduels posting 26 odds

and KD is a minus 300 favorite for the Joy is Back.

He hasn't even traded yet.

Right, because you actually have to factor in the pre-miserable. Yeah.
You can't just pick somebody who's happy all the time. You have to get somebody who's a really moody dude.
Yeah, that's tough. I don't know who our joyous back guy is.
I mean, wherever Durant ends up. I think for next year, it's probably off the board.
Maybe it's Kyrie. Maybe Kyrie, because the trade was so late last year, or the turnaround was so late last year, maybe he's grandfathered in and he's the favorite this year.
I don't know. He would have won it last year.
Could there be Kyrie Joy is back voter fatigue? Because he would have won it last year. Like a back-to-back? Donovan Mitchell, who I don't think was completely miserable last year, but I do think has an added level of joy this year.
And I think he would be somebody I would at least accept the thing. Paul George probably would be last in the voting.
He'd be the joy is not back, if that was an award. When Embiid's on another team, when they do the joy is back, sit down feature.
Oh, no, it's Jimmy Butler. Oh, perfect.
Yeah you can't jimmy butler's like he had five points the other night when steph had 56 and they interviewed him in the locker room and he was like just delighted he was saying i'm just so pleased to be here for this every jimmy butler quote i feel like did aaron sorkin write the perfect like recovery like every quote it's not just one good quote. They're like 12 for 12.
They're all perfect. You think like, hey, Sorkin, come up with a script of this player that basically sabotaged himself, destroyed his own market value, destroyed his own free agency.
This isn't new, even if we could get into some of the debates, which I think there's some fair criticisms of some of the Miami stuff. But I mean, ultimately it was Butler that just checked out on the whole thing.
They're like, okay, but when he goes to this new team and everybody starts making threes and they win a bunch of games, give us perfect quotes. Every quote Butler has for like two weeks has nailed it.
It's one of those situations where you're like, oh, I forgot this guy had teeth. We hadn't seen his teeth for like three years because he hadn't smiled since like 2021.

It's like, oh, there's Jimmy Butler's teeth.

They're back.

Giving these perfect long monologue answers.

And if I was on the heat, I'd be so pissed.

You'd be like, oh my God, really?

Was that easy?

You're this happy?

Yeah.

You're this happy?

Steph is like this much of a joy to be with. Apparently he seems that i mean that's another one is steph is our joy mvp of just like he just parcels out joy to other people he's able to like transfer it to them just all you have to do is play with them and then go when everybody this is what happens when you cut yeah like you cut and then all the stuff is just wide open I mean still even at Steph's age with this so Butler it was funny because we had Anthony Slater on who you know from the athletic he's national but you know his background is the Warriors and he made a really good point because I think anybody that knew about what was going on before the trade deadline and all the different conversations you hear like the Warriors are a little split well ultimately it matters if Lakeup or Dunleavy care probably more so Lakeup because Lakeup's the one that's going to have to as they have them void out the player option you give them north of 100 million bucks and you're like all right you know like I would never want to be an owner or a GM in that situation really like the way we can take a chance here is giving Jimmy Butler two plus you know 100 million plus over the next years.
But Slater was like, whatever the internal debates were, it was, what are we disrupting now? A maybe non-playing team. So who cares? And that kind of ends the argument really, especially when you see these results.
Yeah. I said on the, on the pod right after that, it wasn't a Hail Mary.
It was somewhere between a third and nine and a third and 13. And the guy's kind of covered and you throw it anyway.
But the odds of Jimmy Butler just going to Golden State and being good immediately were pretty high. And then the odds of him enjoying playing with Steph, that seemed pretty high.
And then just watching the weight of the world be immediately lifted off Steph's. This would have been a more fun segment if they hadn't gotten crushed by Philadelphia last night.
Yeah, but he didn't play. The game I did not watch.
Quentin Grimes went nuts. Butler didn't play, but...
Can you believe Dallas traded Quentin Grimes? Yeah, what? Whoa. How about...
Can you believe Philly traded for Quentin Grimes when it was clear that they were supposed to be headed toward a tank thing? I'm intentionally not... This is not an over-prepared bod because I wanted to do more back and forth stuff, not have like set segments.
You were nailing it so far. There's definitely a couple big picture stuff I want to hit, but the Philly thing, which I was going to mention later, but we should talk about now because we had Embiid, There was a report yesterday.
Embiid went to the owner.

It felt like this week was about Philly trying to subtly pin stuff on Daryl Morey, the GM.

That was something I saw on a show.

Well, Daryl Morey was the one pushing for the Embiid extension.

Right.

If we're going to go down that road.

I'm just to interject quickly. Are you going off like the rumbling of like Josh Harris really was like not sure that he wanted to do this.
Yeah. Is that what you're talking about? Yeah.
We have to hit this quickly because this is absurd and I'm not going to allow it. Ultimately, one guy owns a basketball team.
And when it's that amount of money and it's that big of a decision, that guy is making the call. He's not deferring to the GM.
He's not going, I don't want to do this. And that's a lot of money.
But Daryl says we should. So I'm just going to do it.
It's not happening. That's not how the league works.
Like the reason Kaminga is still on the Warriors is because Joe Lacob didn't want to trade Kaminga. There's no other reason.
Joe Lacob likes Kaminga. He wants, he doesn't want to give up on him.
And that's why he wasn't part of any of those trades. The owners control the show and they're going to decide what happens.
So they could pass the buck. And I'm not defending Daryl because I thought I would have rather resign than give Embiid that extension.
Honestly. But nobody's going to do that.
There's 30 of these jobs. No, I would have been like, listen, can we just talk buyout? Because this is the dumbest.
I can't believe we're doing this. But then we're now in the bus-throwing stage with this Philly situation, and they're in a weird spot because if they get the seventh pick and they don't end up with one of these top six picks in a draft that's awesome, this is a catastrophic, we haven't had a season this bad for a team in 10 years.
So you would disagree with my tweet about this being the second worst thing a front office has done unless you'll allow me the leniency that I'm including ownership in that because you're right. I mean, nobody goes as an owner.
There's so much stuff that happens with ownership, making the final calls and these things. I think even sometimes I'll forget that.
Not that I don't know it, but I'd like that you're reminding us of it because it's never happening without him saying yes. Okay.
I'm in. It's three years, 192.9 million.
He has a player option in three years for $70 million. He's out for the season.
And then when you start hearing about breaking a bone in the leg to help recovery. And I think there was a lot of stuff that was kind of nasty about this where I forget who it was, but basically laid out all the options for the 76ers.
Then it got turned into the 76ers looking into the retirement exemption. If he can't play again, it's like, look, we're not even there.
We like we're two years away from that right my point of the entire extension was i remember when it happened i all i could think of was when you have him like i know there was all the nick stuff you know but you you have somebody who's basically missed half of their career yeah and you haven't really done anything with him. We know what the playoff

regular season. You made the second round twice.
Right. So what's the rush? Also, you watched him in the Olympics.
You watched him in the Olympics not look 100%. So if you don't sign him, you still have been under contract for two years.
You can't do the wait and see that. What's he going to do? Like hold out.
You know, it was just, it's a catastrophic decision and it was bad when it happened. We talked about it when it happened.
We talked about it in our season preview. What did you think? Just out of curiosity, what was the worst decision than, than that extension? Uh, well, you know, Luke is on the Lakers now.
Oh, fair. I thought you were talking offseason.
Yeah. Yeah.
Luca's, you're right. Luca trades number one entrenched.
I've gone to three Lakers games. Yeah.
You're like, when are you buying a jersey? I'm Mr. Laker right now.
Yeah. You're just going.
You know, just seeing him progressively get better and better, which I know is shocking to some that he had missed two months. A big guy who weighs 270 didn't look super crisp right out of the gates.
Yeah. And just seeing his progression continue and the comfort and what comes with him being comfortable.
Like as soon as he starts yelling and getting pissed off, you're like, okay, this is heading in the right direction. That's why I thought that first game that he played against Utah was so funny because he was so tired.
He didn't have time for any of that stuff. And I think a lot of basketball players, even the greatest ones, they'll try to just find a way to fit in a little bit.
And with Luka, it's like, no, don't try to fit in. Just go ahead and play your style, which I know we're going to do some Lakers stuff because I saw your clip this week and I'm with you that the biggest compliment is that now I don't even know what the ceiling is on the possibility for this team, which I think a lot of us thought when this trade happened, it's like, okay, that might ruin 25, but it makes all the sense of the world because now you get to reset your franchise.
And now I think that conversation has shifted quite a bit here. Yeah.
It's the thing he used to do in Dallas. And I've been interested in why, because I know JJ knows it.
I think JJ has done a really good job this year. Luca is one of those, do I have it or not in the first quarter guys, which I think Tatum's a little bit like this too, where they'll use the first quarter to see.
Steph does it all the time. And I think the Lakers have already been like, yeah, you figure out in the first quarter how you are.
And I've been so impressed by LeBron just kind of, all right, I'll wait and see too. And then I'll see where I fit in today.
And then he always gets his stats and he's been, you know, I'm sure you saw it in person. Like he's as active as he's been in a couple of years.
But the defensive stuff that LeBron is doing, because I think it's totally fair where when they're bad defensively, a lot of it, you know, there's stuff that I know that we'll get into. And I don't know how much rotational Lakers stuff you want to talk about between now and where they were.
They were a bad defensive team. But, you know, he's had his ups and downs.
But there are, I mean, this group where you went, Luka, Reeves, LeBron on the perimeter, now no AD behind it. Like, how good can they be defensively? And they've been incredible.
And I'm actually going to give a little credit here because Greg St. Jean, who's the son of Gary, the longtime Warriors exec, he was with the Lakers when LeBron was there before.
Then he was at Dallas with Luka. Then he comes back on a JJ staff.
And I know him a little bit, so certainly I'm biased. Be like, hey, you doing anything tonight? And he'll be like, I'm installing our entry passes against the Utah Jazz.
And I was like, all right, he's just one of those guys. He'll be a head coach at some point.
I have this coach at some point this alternate pin down defense i'm working on pin down three yeah we're working on a lot of side out of bounds stuff today um i think his relationship with the players like in the fact that these two superstars you know been there i think jj has a lot to do with they're just so much more prepared as a basketball team and there was also stuff like at one point when the record wasn't that much better, we're like, oh, JJ read it. Cause let's face it.
Like most people were rooting against JJ being successful because of the background, but NBA head coaching paths are, are very non-traditional. Okay.
I mean, this has been going on for 20 plays. I don't even know, maybe even longer than that.
You would know better than I would how many times you're like, okay, I guess they're just going to make that guy head coach. And I remember when the records are similar, there was a bit like, oh, well, this isn't any better than Darvin Ham.
And you watch them now and how prepared they are and whether it was the Denver game we were talking about just a week ago. This team has figured some stuff out on defense that I just didn't think was possible.
I agree. And even when you're watching them, it still feels like they have like legitimate holes.
And yet collectively, they've figured out how to cover up for a lot of them. Like, I still feel like the right kind of point guard can just get whatever shot they want.
And then some of the bench guys, I just don't trust at all, but it works. And everybody, it's like JJ said this a couple weeks ago, that the biggest lesson he learned as coach during the season was,

it's all about whether you guys play hard.

And it's the most simple point ever.

It wouldn't be an interesting mind the game episode.

But I think this is the recurring theme for the best teams in the league.

Like all of them give a shit game to game,

quarter to quarter, half to half.

And the Lakers, to their credit, it's impressive.

And then you look at Philly on the flip side of that,

where how many times did you watch a Philly quarter where you're like, this is the worst thing I've ever seen. What's happening? Why? How are they allowing this? Same for the Phoenix Suns where they're just like, yeah, just going to go in the corner.
Not if I'm not getting the ball, I might not run back. The crazy thing about the Suns group is normally you could point to lack rotational consistency last year, and yet they still hadn't.

You look at last year's season, and you thought last year was a disappointment

because you just go, imagine if they had all three guys.

Yeah, would they win like 48?

They were the sixth seed, weren't they?

Yeah, they were like 47, 48 wins.

You have this quirky clutch stat that doesn't even make any sense

of how bad they were offensively.

And you're just like, well, there's no way that'll happen again.

And then when I was looking at it for my show,

you look at the three dudes and you're getting this elite shot making,

this incredible output.

It's almost like 80 points per game, I think, in February

when I did the numbers for those guys.

And then it's like, yeah, but everything else doesn't work.

I know Bowl Bowl's had a really nice run here.

But let me actually, Laker minute rotation you.

Scouting report, if he has a clean look on the catch and three,

he's probably going to reset himself and move.

All right.

Long.

I would add that.

Put long for Bo-Bull.

Long.

Long length.

Long length. Which is one of my favorite things I've ever seen.
Be careful. Be careful attacking him long.
In November, the Lakers were 25th on defense. They were 8-6 that month.
They were 25th on defense, right? And it felt worse. Yeah.
You're looking at it going, probably going to be their thing. They're just not going to be very good defensively.
Why would that be? Well, D'Angelo Russell for that month,

26 minutes a game. Cam Reddish,

21 minutes a game. Dalton Connect is making threes, but he's playing 26 minutes per game.

You look at where they're at now

in their last 10, and then if I give

you their number two defense in

the NBA behind

your Detroit Pistons, who

are just their own story.

And they're like fourth in the last 20, I think, too.

So it's getting better.

Every 10-game stretch is better

Thank you. your Detroit Pistons who are just their own story.
And they're like fourth in the last 20, I think, too. So it's getting better.
Every 10-game stretch is better than the last 10-game stretch. When you shoot it well and you play defense, you're going to win a bunch of games.
So the February minutes, look at the breakdown. So you're replacing T'Angelo Russell 26 minutes a game, depending on the month.
Again, I'm just using November. In February, Dorian Finney-Smith's 30 minutes a game.
Vando,

who just hacks the shit out of everybody, but he's in there for 15 minutes fighting his ass off.

Dalton's only playing 13 minutes

a game. He's also

not shooting great in February. Then Jordan

Goodwin comes in and wreaks havoc on everybody

and LeBron's had the second

or kind of tied for second best defensive

rating of any of the main regulars.

Right. You get two-way LeBron back as part of all this because he was one-way LeBron for two months.
That's the point, yeah. He's been really good.
The Philly thing, I don't know what the answer is. Did you look at the lottery odds? The thing is, they're probably going to be sixth and all it takes is one team to jump them.
It's this incredible lottery thing because if they don't keep the top six, one team jumps them and they fall back to seven. And then OKC gets that pick, and OKC's going to be like a 64-win team, probably going to be in the finals, and they're going to get the seventh pick, eighth pick in this awesome draft.
that I've been dabbling in a little bit. I'm starting to get some draft opinions.
We don't have to do that today, but this looks like if you're in the top five in this draft, you're getting somebody that is going to be legitimately exciting. If you got Edgecombe with the fifth pick, it's like that guy might be awesome.
He might be an all-NBA wing in seven years. I don't know.
This draft just seems stacked, especially compared to this rookie class we just had. So anyway, the Philly thing, wow.
And the Eagles won, and I think the Philly fans are still riding a high, but it's hard to imagine a bleaker situation unless you're the Suns.

Cause I think that one's slightly bleaker.

There's really only the,

we got to trade Booker move.

And it just seems like they're adamant.

They're not going to trade him.

I just don't think they're going to get a lot for Durant last year of his

deal,

making 50 plus million.

I don't know what you're getting for him.

You're 19 in the league.

Clearly not exactly the same as where he was seven years ago. I don't, what are you getting for him? Not that much.
Do you want to do some reckless speculation? Washington would be the most fun for me or San Antonio would be my reckless speculation. What do you have something better? I just wonder if there's an, if there's a playoff exit from Houston that motivates them to go, okay, look, we have a one timer.
Houston has done a really good, a good job here. I don't know who I'm picking them against in the playoffs.
Like again, we could sit here and go through all the seating stuff, but I feel like we'd just be changing it every couple of days. I wonder if there's a Houston exit where they went, you know you know what like we can't pay all these guys we don't even have minutes for all of these guys that we've hit on yeah and it does feel like you know you talk about the two timeline thing that it's just hard it's really hard to thread that needle and you go is the the two timeline Brooks Van Vliet with the

young guys or is the two timeline

Jalen Green and Shingun

with Amen Thompson

emerging?

Is there any

version where

Green and Shingun are totally fine

realizing that Thompson might be the best player?

Or is there a Booker trade

that you just overwhelm them? I know you don't want to trade Devin Booker, but how about this? And for Phoenix, it's the only get-out-of-jail-free card they have, basically. And Houston has some Phoenix picks, too, is the other piece of that.
I just don't think Ishby is going to be like, okay, cool, now we're going to tank. We're going to do the process for a couple of years.
I think that dude is wired the opposite way where we can get out of this. If we could just do this.
My favorite story of the whole post-trade deadline was that Minnesota was trying to trade for Durant. That was my favorite.
I just want to know how that trade's possible between Phoenix and Minnesota when they're both well over the second apron. What is the scenario where those two teams could have made a Kevin Durant trade? It's like, well, if Minnesota had been able to shed some apron stuff, cool.
Where were they doing that? Just, hey, take, can you guys take Randall? Sure. We'll take them.
How are they shedding apron? I can't take some of the, some of the, after the fact. And I know where where it's coming like minnesota's like ah you know they leak it to whoever we're kicking the tires on durant we really try to yeah yeah you can run with this we're really trying to get him how you're not getting kevin durant who are you trading for him you can't make a two for one in the apron i like the luca milwaukee minnesota one there's more there's no more reporting on the minnesota stuff but like a couple times that i had heard was like yeah they called but weren't offering luca yeah and milwaukee had no idea he was available it's great there's some really good ones let's uh let's take a break and then uh there's a big one big topic i want to hit with you this This episode is brought to you by Michelob Ultra.
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All right. I hate devoting an entire segment to this, but it's been bugging me.
And I just feel like we have to talk about it. Because it became a huge topic on Friday.
And I always judge stuff by anecdotally if people in my life are asking about it, I was like, ah, fuck, we probably have to talk about it. But LeBron started this whole thing with the face of the game and how negatively everybody's covering the league.
And there was a Gilbert Arenas clip on first take talking about how nice everyone was back in the day to the stars and now they're not. And I just, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills because I've been here the whole time.
I think I have a really good handle historically of the league and all the ebbs and flows. Even if I hated you, I would have to admit that you're right.
Thank you. I think this is the nicest era to be an NBA star that we've ever had.

And it's amazing to me when people dwell on the negativity.

There's other reasons for the negativity,

but if you go backwards and you look at the 70s and the 80s and 90s and 2000s

and how players were treated and discussed,

it is no contest compared to right now.

That's the first thing. And I have some stuff I want to do, but give me your initial take on that.
I just have a follow-up. I mean, why would you make that claim? Why would I make that claim? Why would you say, because I don't know if I agree with you.
I need convincing on this, because my whole point is no one's ever had more access to hate, which I've talked about a lot. And I think a lot of these players just consistently think that they're hated all the time.
I think anybody that does anything that is publicly consumed. But that's the point.
It's not just the NBA. Everyone has more access to the alternate side of what you want to hear in all vocations in life.
It's not an NBA thing. It's an everything thing.
So to say it's just devoted to the NBA to me is like ludicrous. This is just what life is like now.
Sell me on the point of those decades being more negative towards their stars. Well, so this is the problem with this argument is that if you actually go through it, everybody has gone through the exact same stuff that the guys go through now.
So I'm going to do my three minute first take monologue. We have time.
1970s, people hated the NBA. The games were taped delayed and people bitched about the league and were writing crazy pieces about this league doesn't work.
There's actually pieces you could read in Sports Illustrated. The league's too black.
What are we going to do? It could not have been more negative, I promise you. Dr.
J, beloved star, gets to Philadelphia. He's ripped for not winning a title for the first six years until Moses gets there.
That's a huge narrative of the Dr. J thing.
He can't come through when it matters. Magic Johnson.
Westhead gets fired in 81. He's booed at home.
He's devastated, destroyed, crushed. Most selfish guy.
What's wrong? These are the modern athletes. He went through all that shit and he's talked about it.
He's crushed after the 84 finals too. Larry Bird after the 85.
And that's with the title in his back pocket. Right.
He already would. Larry Bird had already won two in the 85 finals.
There was the bar fight thing. Everyone was mad at him in Boston.
But then in the 90s season, when he came back from the heel surgery, took a ton of shit about being selfish. Barkley was basically driven out of Philly by the media.
Hakeem almost got traded in 92 because it got so bad with him in Houston. Isaiah just got the reputation as you're an asshole, you're a backstabber.
They left him off the dream team. Michael Jordan, beloved now, too selfish to win for seven years.
Up until the 91 finals, it's like he shoots too much. All he cares about is his own points.
He can't win with this guy. And then after he won twice, remember in the 93 playoffs, It was so negative about the gambling stuff, he stopped talking to everybody.

He stopped talking to the media. And then he

retired. And people are like, is he retiring? Because it's

too much pressure. Kevin Johnson

took a ton of shit, couldn't stay

healthy, 94 finals. Pippen

didn't take the shot in the 94 playoffs

and still carries it 30 years later.

David Robinson, too nice,

loser. Well, he didn't come back in when it was run for Cooper.
And then wore that for 30 years. Dream Team 94, I promise you, was not popular when it happened.
People were not happy with it. Shaq, in the entire 1990s, people bitched about, when is he going to take basketball seriously? Why does he do all this other stuff? Why is he doing movies and music? Patrick Ewing could have won the big one.
Karl Malone, who took more shit than Karl Malone in the last two finals he was in. Iverson, which I think has come around and is like this beloved figure now.
He was not beloved in the 90s, in the early 2000s. He took a ton of shit.
Christian Laettner, bust, disappointment. All those late 90 guys, when we head into that lockout.
Remember how mad people are at the league? These guys are making so much money. Kenny Anderson can't feed his family, all that shit.
We've definitely progressed when you go all the way back to the strike in the NFL in the early 80s and how much society, there wasn't one person going, you realize you're arguing for the owners to make more money. And that's what always pisses me off.
It's like, okay, you want to look at these players and look at their salaries and say that they're selfish and they're entitled and all this shit. But ultimately what you're saying, when you hope they get paid less or lose at the collective bargaining agreement table, you're hoping these owners make more money.
It's like, I can't identify with somebody who's making that much money. That was an attitude through the 90s.
I have a couple more. Jason Kidd traded twice, took a ton of shit.
Chris Weber. One of those trades.
Well, one of those trades had to happen. But the Dallas trade, Chris Weber was an all-time hot potato guy and we called him out all the time.
His Washington career was incredibly disappointing. He got to Sacramento and was like, watch C-Web.
He's going to turn completely away from the basket to hit the ball to make Bibby. He wants no part of this.
We made fun of him. Kobe, I would say, was the most picked apart athlete in the 2000s.
I wouldn't even say football player. And that you might go Peyton Manning, but there was a lot of Kobe stuff that then when he won the two titles at the end of the decade, then it kind of circled around the other way.
But it got right, and there was the trial, there was a whole bunch of stuff with Kobe, but if you go to the 04 finals, 05, 06, 07, him not shooting in the second half of that Suns game, and how nuts we all went after the fact. Not great.
T-Mac can't win. Vince quit on Toronto.
He's soft. KG can't win.
Dirk, who took more shit than Dirk from 06 to 2011? He's soft. He's a choke artist.
He's a loser. I think he took probably, other than Kobe the most, Dwight Howard.
I keep going. The point is, for whatever reason, this has been the league.

And I think it's because you have these personalities that drive teams.

People feel really attached to them.

Either they're defensive and passionate about them or they're mad at them.

And that's just the ebb and flow in the league.

I honestly think it's better than it's ever been with this stuff.

You can find hate anywhere if you go online.

Doesn't mean that people hate.

LeBron has like 50 million Instagram followers.

Thank you. ever been with this stuff.
You can find hate anywhere if you go online. Doesn't mean that people hate.
LeBron has 50 million Instagram followers. Yeah, look, I know enough about those timelines.
I just remember when Jordan scored all the points against the Celtics and then lost. You'd be playing a Little League baseball tournament and every coach is sitting there in his bike shorts, shitting on Jordan.
Now, granted, growing up in New England was the wrong place because all these guys are going home to worship their Larry Bird altar. But maybe he should add 68.
Yeah, right. Like the collective.
He yeah. Cool scoring, bro.
But the lack of respect for who Jordan was because he was losing to these older, more superior battle tested, well-rounded basketball teams, Jordan would have had a very, like people would have destroyed him if he played now through the first seven years of his career without winning anything. Because it's like, if you're the best, you know, you have that kind of attention on you.
I feel like people destroyed them back in the day. I thought that was a big narrative of his career.
It's like, yeah, he's super fun, but he's Bird of Magic won titles and he didn't. My point is this has been a narrative that we've heard forever.
And if you don't win titles and you don't come through in the NBA, you're going to take crap. But I also feel like that goes for the NFL.
Right? It goes for baseball with somebody like Clayton Kershaw. This is what we do with sports.
We don't even do it. But here's the thing.
We don't even do it with baseball anymore. So like that's because I was thinking about the space of the league stuff.
Yeah. I want to get to that too.
Right. Like LeBron, when you are as great as you are, unfortunately, part of that deal is you're held to the standard where everything is dissected.
And Ant got a little taste of that because Ant was coming up, approval rating through the roof. He's so much fun.
He starts talking a little shit. And then they get eliminated.
They get eliminated on May 30th, right? I looked it up. And then he had the receipts commercial on may 31st like they had that one ready to go where you're showing like how much this is impacting players i know silver talked about this years ago where he just said like look we have a league where our stars and i'm paraphrasing here so i hope i'm not too removed from the tone of what he was saying but i think i have it and that it was like you kind of have a bunch of guys at the top that are pretty miserable.
Like a lot of players that are really miserable. He said that was when I did that interview with him at the slum conference, that's when he started talking about the unhappiness with the players.
And that was 2018 range. So it's been a storyline for seven years.
It's like, why aren't our players happier? Right. So, you know, Ant has had probably this shift because the Olympics didnics didn't go the way he thought it would go i mean he wasn't even out on the floor for some of that stuff he didn't look super comfortable after talking a lot of shit um and again i don't look at it and go like oh man now i have to reevaluate what i think about you but ant is very predictably going to have if he doesn't have some kind of playoff success here in the next couple years years, it's going to turn back to everything you just said in your timeline of like, hey, I thought this was supposed to be the guy.
You hope you're one of those guys in this sport. Because I was thinking about Ant relationship, like has anybody ever talked about De'Aaron Fox? Like De'Aaron Fox is a really good player.
Makes a lot of sense for the Spurs. I think it's a bit like the Donovan Mitchell thing where it's like, yeah, it's not perfect, but he's really good.
And if we keep waiting around on what this magical acquisition will be, then we might be waiting forever. But De'Aaron Fox has never talked about that.
So there's this group outside of these, I don't know, seven to eight players we obsess about every single season. There's this group that's not even part of that.
And again, baseball, the sport, we don't even have any of those dudes anymore right now that at least we have otani and nobody's like oh otani face of the league i don't know where that the face of the league it's more personal basketball is just way more personal than the other two sports are yeah you think that it doesn't it feel like the attachment i mean sure we could pick a bunch of quarterbacks that are as big as stars as any nba you got helmets, you got helmets on during a game. I've said this forever.
Basketball is the most naked sport. Whether you're at the game or you're watching TV, you feel like you have this connection with players that's just different than the other sports.
It just is. Especially if you're going and you're watching them and you're watching them during timeouts, you're watching them interact in fouls and during free throws.
And I think the social media aspect of it where they can connect to fans immediately they can see fed feedback immediately obviously that's not awesome but uh i think in some ways it's it's better for them too because you know in the old days you could just like whatever like i think back to the peter vessey new york post pieces of the 80s and he would just like you know he was just absolutely completely eviscerated people he called Alonzo Mourning the Oregon groaner right it's just a little different now and you can mobilize people you can mobilize all your followers against somebody there's the face of the week thing yeah what that's another one I don't think I've allowed you this. Just go for it.
No, I think it goes together. I think with the face of the week thing, we probably see it the same way.
You don't talk about it. It's not like the People Magazine sexiest man of the year issue where we just nominate somebody.
Is that who it was this year? You kind of take it. And when you think about I've never, when I was in the 80s loving basketball, I was never like, I wonder who the face of the league is right now.
We didn't talk about it. We didn't talk about it in the 90s.
Bird and Magic, because Magic won a title as a rookie and Bird won the title in his second year. The league just sort of shifted to them because they won.

And then Bird had the three MVPs, two titles.

Then Magic had three MVPs in four years and he won two titles.

And it was just obvious those were the guys.

And then Jordan beat Magic in the 91 finals.

And guess what?

That made him the guy.

And then Jordan went through all the 90s and then it was like Shaq and Kobe together. I guess this is their league now.
And then that fell apart. And in the mid 2000s, we're like, Duncan, Spurs, sure.
Like no, it wasn't like we're like, Tim Duncan's now the face of the league. Because one of the cases you see with this face of the league stuff is like, oh, Tatum wins three in a row.
He's now the face of the league. I don't think it works that way.
It kind of organically happens. Kobe had it at the end of the 2000s.
Eventually it shifted to LeBron and then it shifted to LeBron and Curry together. And that's just kind of what happened.
We can't nominate Anthony Edwards. It's not, like this would happen in tennis sometimes, especially in the 80s.
It'd be like Boris Becker, see the face of tennis now because he won Wimbledon once?

It's like,

that's not how it works.

You kind of ease into it.

Nobody would pick Agassi

and then it eventually became,

oh, it's Agassi and Sampras.

What about Yvonne Lembill?

Did he have the belt?

He had the belt there for a little bit.

It never took.

It kept falling off him.

But the point with the face of the league now

is like,

yeah, it's still Stephen Curry.

And then somebody is going to have to win a couple of titles and take it

from him.

But if Wendy comes in and wins two straight titles and he's the best part

in the league,

he's the face of the league.

I just don't know what that means.

We're solo.

What does the face of the league mean?

Just,

you get the most attention.

I think we know it without defining it.

You think Steph's the face of the league over LeBron.

I think the two of them together are really in the last 10 years. I do.
I think it's the two of them together. I don't know, man.
You could point to one of those individuals. It's really a talking point.
I think what happens is there's this cycle of Ant going, I don't necessarily want it. Then it's like, what are you supposed to do? Are you supposed to say that? But what does he want? So he's not going to like try to win the finals? Like if he wins the title and he's the best player in the league, guess what? You get whatever this amorphous made up face of the league thing is because you become the guy.
Like to me, it's like- Don't you also have to be the best player though? Because even if Tatum, I mean, that's a lot of work to do, by the way, for Tatum, just, hey, let's add two more titles to this. As great as he is, he wasn't very good today, which I know we'll get to later.
But I don't know that he would ever be the face of the league because I've never thought of him as the best player in the league. At least with Steph, there were seasons where I thought he played better than LeBron.
I never thought he was actually a better basketball player than LeBron. So to be face of the league, you also have to be at some point, because I know you've done this in the past with your belt hole.
It's just a really good way to look at the league. Like who has the belt? Who had the belt then? How many belt transfers are we talking about? Jokic just had the belt for a really long stretch, which is really hard to do.
But there's a popularity piece that Jokic just doesn't have. He's just not going to have.
That's why to me, it's Curry and LeBron are the meal tickets to the league.

They're the guys

who are going to be

in the Saturday 8.30 game the most.

They're the guys

who are going to sell

the most jerseys,

have the most interest,

and if they're on a good team,

people are going to care the most.

And it's those two.

What did you think

of LeBron's quote?

Which one?

Where he basically was like,

I didn't ask for it,

and then it pivoted into

everybody that covers the league

just shits on it, essentially.

That we're all too negative.

Thank you. it and then it pivoted into everybody that covers the league just shits on it essentially that we're all too negative i mean i i would just have an opinion on his opinion i don't think it's true though because i think when when you hit the point where you're kind of the guy in the league or one of the two guys there's a lot of great stuff that comes with that you know you make the money, you make the most money off the court.
You probably have the best chance to win. You can convince the most people to come play with you on a buyout contract.
You can put the most pressure on your owners to do whatever you want them to do. You can make them trade everything they have for Anthony Davis.
There's real benefits to it. I don't think it's this heavy burden.
I think for Ant, it's more a scrutiny thing that he's probably talking about. Like, hey, if you hit this level, you're going to be picked apart in a way that's just a little different.
But that could be anybody, right? That could be Timothee Chalamet right now. That could be whoever you think is the biggest hip hop star right it doesn't just kind of comes to the territory if you're the best at anything you do i don't i don't know why that would be a burden there's there's good and bad to everything but i do wonder though like the negativity thing yeah like i'll have pods where i think, are you harping on the same stuff?

Yes.

Again,

if we're doing a basketball pod and like whatever the headline was that week,

like you're going to stay topical,

you're going to play the hits,

but there'll be certain players.

I'm like,

there's just nothing else for you to say anymore.

Like it's established how you feel.

There's nothing new.

You're not going to change your mind.

The Suns are at some cost as a topic for us.

There's nothing else we could say about the Suns this year at this point.

Right.

Like I've liked to rant for such a long time, but this past year plus, and not to bring up the hockey tweet like a third time, but he's just like, how could you possibly think that that's a good point? How could you think that's basically telling everybody, fuck off when it's like, man, you're the one. And that's also like part of it, too.
It's like this league is so different with how powerful the players are that, you know, did you think you were going to get no criticism signing contracts and then asking out before an extension and either kicked in? Right. Or how you treated All-Star Weekend, which was, you know, the first time the football season ends.
The first time basketball is really in the limelight for real is All-Star Weekend and that everybody treats it like shit. And it's like, we're supposed to say thanks? Like, what's our role? Everyone went to All-Star, I've talked to a bunch of people into All-Star Weekend and they were all like, it was fucking miserable.
It sucked. It was awful.
And the timing of it is so bad now. So that no blood on your hands for all the good players? Like nothing? You don't care? Yeah, it's like, okay, the window is finally shifted.
Like you are outside of the football shadow. So like own this week.
And it's like, nope. Not only are we not going to own the week, we're going to embarrass the league again.
And I don't care about that week. I haven't cared about it for years.
I think I've watched the game once in the last 15 this is not new that the players don't necessarily care but they're not making the most of our opportunities I think all of us are more negative than we are positive okay I think that but that's just life I think everybody I don't think that's a basketball situation I think that's what part is it like that I'm just saying like the internet breeds that if If you go to... Are you like that to your family? No, I'm saying you go and then Twitter replies.

You go... what part is it like that? I'm just saying like the internet breeds that.
If you go to,

are you like that to your family?

No,

I'm saying you go into Twitter applies,

you go on a Reddit.

I remember I was,

I was at a,

I went to Goldspirer's class in Austin and they did all these studies on different things about how to fall basketball.

And one of the,

one of the things was about NBA Reddit,

just the percentages of positive tweets, first negative. Or not, post.
Negative post comments versus positive about the league. And if I just told you they did that, what would your response be? What would you think it would be? The split? What would the ratio be for you? Just guessing.
I think it's going to be low. I mean, the way you're leading this, I have to pick a massive split on it.
So I'll say 80% negative. No, it wasn't that bad.
I prejudiced you with my lead in, but it was like 35, 65 or 30, 70, something like that. But just people are more prone when they're on any sort of forum like that to be negative than positive.
You just have to know that going in. I would argue that people at the games are way nicer, way nicer.
It's not even close. I would love for people to go in a time machine and go to like the fleet center in 1996, just get a feel for what those two hours were like with like an angry, you know, fan base that didn't like the product and just had the freedom to just yell at everybody.
Like it's to now I look now, I think it's actually like a pretty nice experience. Like there'll be stories about, oh, there was a heckler who yelled at somebody.
They kicked him out. It's like, fuck it.
Hey, like there was 30 of those. I remember going to a Golden State Sacramento game when I was visiting my buddies in San Francisco in like 98.
And I had no idea that the Golden State fans hated Chris Weber so much. So it was 99.
It was that first season and they were just booing him, yelling him. It was like a two and a half hour Chris Weber roast in the stands.
Anything he did, they're going nuts like that. Those days are over.
We don't see Durant and OKC that comeback game was probably the last time anything like that happened, right?

Yeah, getting a

fan removed

and then it becomes, because the

player has the power to have that happen now

and it'll become kind of like

a topic and then, you know, if it's a really

slow day, you know,

you'll discuss like what

does this mean? Yeah.

And I think there's some players that actually like look for it a little bit more than other players and you realize like this thing that is definitely an improvement to the experience for the player a massive because you're completely right about that like going to some of these crowds going to baseball stadiums going back to foxborough in the day i just, you wouldn't even want to bring a kid. Well, baseball,

everyone's on their phone, so that's probably

the safest place you can be an athlete.

People aren't even looking up

unless a foul ball's coming at them, which

can't happen because there's a net. The bleachers

used to be about how drunk were you

going to get and how many fights were there going to be.

And what could you yell at the

other players and stay in the park?

Right, so, then when a player has a fan removed then it becomes kind of this think piece of like the dynamic of respect and all these different things like what can you have happening you're like yeah but no one was ever removed in the past so it actually happened at a much greater rate you just never defending the past it's the way it was. I just think every year is a little bit different.

Listen, if players feel a certain way,

I'm certainly going to tell them

not to feel that way.

I do think a big piece of this

is self-inflicted, though,

by the league.

The schedule's too long.

If we had a 70-game season

or a 60-game season,

I don't have to watch

these extra 20 games of the Suns, right?

There's more urgency for the games. The load management stuff, which've talked about ad nauseum that made it hard for players for fans to connect with the with the league and players right the players call way too much shit for that though you know but i think it made it hard it was something that got brought up and i do think it mattered to fans that they bought a ticket and the guy wasn't there that's absolutely i'm not saying like that's going to be the worst experience especially you don't have the budget to go to more than one game a year and then you bring your kid and he's all fired up he's got the jersey on and they're not playing i think there were certain teams like i really think what the spurs did in a very belichick way to just be like hey you know what tnt thursday night yeah remember remember the abc game how bad it got there for a while where you

were like are you guys seriously like giving the league and your television partner this much of a

fuck you just hey we're just gonna sit everybody yeah and i understand like what the science and

by the way the science has proven very little because it's not like we go into the playoffs

like every playoff story is littered with like two or three major injuries so i'm not sure i'm not

expecting that everybody was just gonna be healthy all the time but I don't know if that's had the positive impact that everybody thought it would be when they wrote about it for years, wrote about it nonstop for years. But that's part of it.
I don't know, man. I guess sometimes I wonder, clearly with with this pod we've got a large audience sometimes i feel like i'm too negative and instead of like having lebron give this quote or some of it like look with his quotes i don't love all of them all right uh but he's been giving us quotes for two plus decades so which public figure would i ever be like you know what everything he said for 20 plus years i've liked everything he said that that person doesn't exist yeah it's impossible to have the chalamet approval rating after the two decade plus run for lebron but when i started thinking about like just negativity him saying everyone is too negative well no that's not the case but then i'll i'll like of all the games that I watch, especially when it's on like the national broadcast and like Bronny comes into a game and then the broadcasters start talking about like how hard he works.
You're like, dude, he's got an NBA uniform on and he's not good and he shouldn't be out there. And this whole thing's kind of a joke.
So let's evaluate it that way. But there will be no like that won't happen so it actually strengthens your point whenever those broadcasts like that's when i feel like am i being negative or am i being like just a basketball fan that's frustrated with the way that the national broadcast is discussing a game or discussing certain players when you just go hey this person and again maybe i shouldn't even Bronny, but that was just one that jumped out.
It's like, you guys are going to do four minutes on the positives here? Or like Philly before the start of the season when there was pieces about, here's their plan to win a championship. And it was like, hey, part of the plan is that Embiid's not going to play back-to-backs anymore.
But here's what they're trying to do. They're trying to be healthy, and Embiid's not going to play back-to-backs anymore and his name might be fucked up.
I don't know. It's just...
Are we supposed to be positive about Embiid? Are we supposed to be positive? Or the Philly situation or all of it. I just feel like for us, one of the reasons I think we connected and became friends and we liked doing the pod together is we really love basketball both of us will be watching these random games on stupid nights and we really give a shit about it and you can't just talk about all the stuff you like you gotta have a little balance both ways but I think we celebrate the game as much as we criticize it there's other shows and personalities that I think kind of dine in the, this gets me attention if I do this.
I don't feel like we do that. I always feel like we're having a conversation about things we like and don't like about the league.
I love watching Detroit right now. I could do 10 minutes on Ron Holland right now.
I fucking love Ron Holland.

Ron Holland's, I haven't even watched,

I probably watched 15% of the Pistons games

or pieces 20%.

Ron Holland seems like he's ready to get into it

with everybody on every team.

He's like 19 years old.

I really like watching them.

I appreciate the Pistons.

I'm excited to watch them play the Knicks in round one.

I think if you lose that side of things, it becomes harder for me to take your criticisms seriously. You still have to fundamentally like what you're watching.
I don't feel like some people out there do. I just like calling out the bullshit because I think there's a lot of it, whether it's another media member's quote, because then there's some guys that are just only positive and i think are you just this much of an ass kisser like what do you think you're going to hang out with these guys you know is he going to be able to like the next time they have a they rent a boat they're going to invite you like what fuck are you doing and so i know i'd never be that guy but you know kind of your point about like philly or even the durant part like i think i've i mean i didn't even really get on his case during the golden state thing because i thought he wanted to get away from westbrook and he wanted to play perfect basketball and he wanted to he wanted to like you know back to the joy topic he wanted to experience like absolute pure joy.
But when you have a four-year extension and you want Marks and Nash and everybody fired before it even kicks in, and then you come back and play, and then you ask out, and now you've put together a season, I would say more so this year than last year. They got killed against Minnesota.
That's when the Suns died, and I was dumb enough to think that they weren't dead yet and they were already dead but they just had another season in this season so like what does Durant expect did he expect that people were gonna be like man he's still getting you like 29 30 every single night because if you look at the little stuff in between it doesn't always show it. This is not a locked in group.

This is a group that seems to be really down on each other.

I thought the coach Bud stuff,

admitting that he had told Booker to tone it down.

Like I,

I just wondered,

I was like,

man,

I wonder if that'll be,

I thought he was going to get fired this weekend.

I really did.

I thought there was going to be like a Don Nelson next thing.

All right,

let's take a quick break.

Cause I want to keep talking about this.

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So one last thing on whether people are too critical or not. I can't believe we spent this much time talking about it, but I do think it's interesting.
It seems like the rise of the X-Play player podcasts and voices has contributed to this whole when everybody's like we're we spent too much time comparing the past to the present and i think the social media piece of that too where you see all these videos and these breakdowns of this guy against this guy um i just really hope that people realize and i like some of the X player stuff, how unreliable they are as narrators. These are people that were playing the entire time.
They might have opinions based on who they're against. It's not like they spent a ton of time thinking about different eras of the league and stars and comparing.
And you'll just see stuff on the, on the shows or pods or on your,

on your social feed where you're like,

what are we doing?

Like,

like,

I just feel like the discourse big picture about,

uh,

basketball as it relates to errors in the past is like the worst it's ever

been.

Um,

and I don't think that's helping with some of this stuff.

So you really disagreed with arenas's point.

I think that's fair to say.

I,

that was just one example.

Thank you. helping with some of this stuff so you really disagreed with arenas's point i think that's fair to say i that was just one example where i'm just like they just go back like go go read some of the books go read phil jackson's book about kobe in 2005 like you we just can't you can't just pretend stuff didn't happen it's just the rate man, man.
It's the rate of it. And I do not understand.

Like, I couldn't believe the first time a coach told me.

He's like, yeah, players come in and check their mentions at halftime.

Like, you didn't know that?

Right.

And I'm thinking, like, what a ridiculous.

But then I thought, okay, well, every single ESPN host, as soon as you go to break, does the exact same thing.

That always, I could never believe that.

What a terrible thing to do during a break at a show.

Right, because then what happens?

Maybe somebody will say I look ugly.

Hey, I'm guilty of it.

I used to do it.

And then I stopped because I realized you were coming back from break, like talking to one person.

You're arguing with Motorcycle69.

Every single guy did it. Every one of us.
And it made all of us worst hosts because you were distracted. You were talking to this one person.
You were focusing on the one negative because nobody was going to be like, hey, you know what? Really good job making a point and a really solid conclusion. No notes.
Can't pick holes. Because, I mean, everybody's favorite hobby now, like even if I do a monologue on something for 10, 15 minutes, usually 15 means it's too long.
It was like, oh, did you think about this? Like, well, I could have done 30 minutes. You left out.
Yeah, you left out this thing. That is everyone's favorite hobby right now, at least for what we do is that, well, here's the point that you didn't make.
And then a lot of times it'll be so obvious. It's like, well, I didn't even point that out because I don't even know why anybody would even bring it up.
And what we do isn't even fucking cool. So when I think about players basically doing the exact same thing, elected officials do the exact same thing.
I remember I got into it with Van Pelt. I was like, why are you arguing with somebody right now? You're broadcasting the fucking masters.
You were broadcasting the, you're on like the seventh hole. And, you know, he know he i realized like kind of no one can help themselves to different degrees and what i like about our age group is that we know what it was like before this and we certainly are in it deep now for years and years so we've experienced both of it imagine being a 20 something basketball player so like you're always going to be more impacted by the negativity, the access to it, the rate of it.

I think it's just fucks a lot of guys up.

So it's hard to tell players you're wrong about the negativity when it's all they've ever experienced.

They're not going to do what you did because they weren't around when you did it.

They're not going to go back and read Sports Illustrated articles from the 70s and go, you know what?

I have greater perspective on this.

I don't have it too bad right now.

So I don't think anything

LeBron said was necessarily

wrong. I was talking about the X-Players.

Yeah.

The X-Player thing,

it depends on the generation. Although there has been some good content lately.

Did you see the Vernon Maxwell on All the Smoke

talking about when Hakeem slapped him? That was

one of the best three minutes I've spent all year.

That was so good. That clip

was so good with those guys because Max respects them. Yeah, that was amazing.
And look, Barnes is a wild card. And Steven Jackson, I think people would say, is a real one.
So that was, I'm totally with you. I mean, look, if you want to talk X players, I don't know if I trust anybody more than Jeff Teague right now.
Jeff Teague's been great. Everyff teague breakout is like incredible i love barnes and captain jack because i think when they talk about basketball and the history and how it relates now like i actually believe in their opinions on it i i've had them on the pod and we're arguing about kobe versus duncan who was the guy in the 2000s the one the players right they no they both were kobe yeah that's what I'm saying.
Yeah. But they made compelling cases for it.
And it's like, that's what's fun about basketball is arguing about different things. I have never, the first time I ever remember even thinking about who the face of the league was was when MJ was retiring.
And we were kind of like, what do we do now? And then it was like, is it Grand Hill? It went on for years. Is it Iverson? But it was more like there was such a void.
NFL has never really had to deal with it because they always have two or three quarterbacks who are just there ready to roll. Like Brady and Manning had it forever.
And then Aaron Rodgers was just right there and then he moves in. And then all of a sudden Mahomes showed up and he's there.
And Joe Burrow. And they always have two or three dudes.
Josh Allen's in there now. Lamar.
Maybe a couple other guys will pop in over the next couple of years. But they always have the four to five.
The NBA, there will be stretches. We felt it in the mid-2000s.
It was like, what do we do? Kobe's on shitty teams. We thought it was going to be him.
Shaq's getting old. Duncan's not clicking with people.
Is it Dwayne Wade? Oh, Dwayne Wade, 06 finals. Maybe it's Dwayne Wade.
And it was just a lot of that for basically all the way through until we ended up with LeBron and Kobe as kind of the guys. But I just think it's way more organic than us deciding.
Ant can be the face of the league if he kicks everybody's ass and wins the title and is clearly the best guy in the league. That's how it happens.
There's no other scenario. Right? And then he's selling shoes and people talk about him and people like my mom know who he is.
Those are all the checkpoints you have to hit. It doesn't doesn't happen without the wins.
We don't decide. It doesn't.
No. And there was that push to try to figure out who the post-Jordan guy was.
And that void did go on forever. It was the Kobe All-Star game where it just was going to be too early for Kobe to take that on after some of these other misses.
And Iverson didn't have the playoff success other than the finals run. But the team just't good enough for this to be like oh this is phase one of this sustainable thing with the Sixers it was kind of just this remarkable defensive run with an offense built around one guy just hopefully going crazy enough to get you some playoff wins so I think the lesson in that is that that face never like that face storyline never developed like Like that person did not present themselves and whatever that void was, it didn't mean the league was just going to swallow itself up and cease to exist.
And I mean, we can get into some of the rating stuff, the popularity or whatever, which I, there's one piece though. There's a personality piece that I feel like, you know, when you see it, that's probably not going to work as like the lead guy.
And I think Grant Hill was a good example. Grant Hill was awesome, but I never felt like he was, there was like a sense of like, almost like danger missing with him.
Right. And then Duncan was the same thing.
Duncan was the best guy. I still have Duncan like sixth or seventh all, I think I have seventh all time.
Um, and I still think he was the best guy of the 2000s. And yet there was never a moment where people were like, Duncan, like they ignored a lot of the stuff that he did.
They focused on the wrong things and he just didn't care. Right.
And I think Tatum is a little bit like that now, where Tatum's never going to be the best guy in the league, I don't think. But he could be the most successful guy of this decade.
He could be the guy when we leave

the 2020s, the guy that was the best guy in the most title teams, but he doesn't have that sense

of that whiff of something, that same thing with Duncan and Grant Hill, where it's just

like you have to pull in everybody. And there's something about Tatum that seems like

it doesn't click with people. I don't know what it is.
I thought during the broadcast today, that was really interesting because it then turned to like another face of the league conversation and Doris was talking about like Tatum and essentially saying, you know, if you're that person and you shouldn't even have to address it. And I love that Breen was like, okay, but he was asked about it.
Uh, while there was also a game where there was an ad that started with Tatum in a press conference, the commercial where the reporter, again, it's an actress going, you're on top of the basketball world right now. And you're like, okay, he's got the title and he's the best player on a title team.
And i think you're rounding up a bit on like what's possible for him because i know we're going to get to cleveland and all this other stuff but i liked that breen was like okay but of all the superstars like this guy is incredibly polite and he also plays like every single game so yeah yeah, I think there's a personality thing.

Yeah.

There's a personality disconnect.

Like Iverson was the coolest thing ever.

All right.

Yeah.

It was,

but it was really polarizing when he was playing.

I think people like you and I were probably in the minority of like,

I fucking love Iverson.

I love how hard he plays,

but there was other people that,

you know,

we're like,

eh.

Yeah.

But he kind of,

he lost me a bit there towards the end of the Philly stuff.

Cause it's just,

Thank you. there's other people that you know were like yeah but he kind of practiced he lost me a bit there towards the end of the philly stuff because it's just i mean especially you go back on we're not awesome yeah there's there's an approach to like if you're setting the tone as the best player in a team and then you're taking off and doing your own thing all the time it just can't be bothered like i don't know how that's good for the team and i don't know how that's good for yourself so once we had access to a little bit more of that stuff i think that's also something else too is like guys used to be able to hide guys would be able to hide we didn't know what was going on with them we know what's going on with these guys literally every single fucking minute so the relationship is so much more intimate and when it is that more intimate then you're much more likely to find things that you don't like about some of these dudes.
But as far as like- But is that everything though? It's not just the NBA. Yeah, of course it is.
I feel like that every aspect of life is like that now. Think about how many people impress you in the first five minutes and then ultimately let you down.
Like if you think about your professional career, the number of people that once you had more exposure to them, I mean, I know that's the case for me,

so I don't want to speak for you,

but then you were like, oh man,

I had high hopes for this person.

That's why now, seriously, if somebody nails it with me in the first five to 10 minutes,

I'm more worried.

You're suspicious.

Yeah.

I'm like, you were so good in the first five to 10 minutes.

I thought now I'm like, what's wrong with this person? Well, the whole concept of celebrity and how fast people can get it and then how fast they can lose it. I feel like that process has definitely been sped up.
I see it with my daughter. I'm always asking her, what are you watching? Who do you care about? What's your favorite podcast? What's your favorite video podcast? And it always seems to change.
What is her favorite podcast? I think it was the canceled podcast, but I think now they had some shit. What's interesting is it's like the same cycle over and over again where she really likes somebody and then be like, why don't you listen to that podcast anymore? Oh, they had a meltdown.
Oh, one of the co-hosts got canceled. Oh, they ended up turning on each other.
And it's just like the internet just hypercharges all of these kind of rises and falls with all of these different social media characters. It's hard to keep up with.
Basketball, you have the same rise and fall stuff, but the guys are making $50 million a year. And it's like Kevin Durant's on the top of the world in 2018.
And then he's down and then he's up and then he's down. Then he goes to Phoenix.
It's going to be great. Now he's down.
Oh my God, they're trading him. Now he's going to, maybe he gets traded to San Antonio in July.
It's like, oh, Kevin Durant can teach Wembe Nama how to win. And it's just like a fucking rollercoaster.
And maybe that's what LeBron was talking about, that the scrutiny and the rollercoaster ride of all this is really hard. And if you you're the face i'm sure it's a bigger roller coaster i can't imagine though not wanting to be the face how could you be a pro athlete well that's where it gets that's where it's hard to take it seriously where it's like so you didn't want this the whole time when you're doing nike ads in 2003 and you did a special to change teams.
And so you, you didn't want,

you weren't excited for this.

I was not surprised by that part of the quote,

but whatever.

I just like,

I like that he's candid though.

He,

he definitely,

he has such a big platform now when he talks about stuff candidly,

it really does have reactions that last two to three days.

Sometimes he does make people think,

um,

I think that,

you know,

the mind,

the game pod about some of the dialogue about that,

about we had to do this pod to three days sometimes. He does make people think.
I think that the Mind the Game pod about some of the dialogue about that, about we had to do this pod to save basketball discourse. I take stuff like that probably a little bit personally because he's basically, I don't know, we spent like going back to Grantland and the Ringer.
We've tried to elevate discussion on pods and writing and all this stuff. And I think a lot of people have.
So when somebody is saying nothing's elevated, you're kind of like, well, I mean, we're trying, you know? I know that I care a lot about what we talk about on this, what I've talked about on my pods and the shows in the past. I mean, I really, I mean, I really cared about putting a lot of thought into what my opinions were going to be.
And yet I always knew like, oh, you don't like, do you know what the help rules are? Do you know what all the terminology is? Second April. Yeah.
Well, no, that kind of stuff I used to really, and then I realized it's like, you're spending way too much time on this. Like I would, I would study the CBA pretty religiously because I wanted to have it like down and I used to have it down.
And now I'm like, I think I'll be okay.

Remember we did that one podcast right after they changed the CBA and both of us were so freaked

out and we were doing, it was like, we were like trying to take a boat and cross the Pacific Ocean.

But then there's this other, we were like so nervous. We didn't understand it.

Yeah. Because I, I felt like, you you know there's always the like unintended consequences thing that is just hard to factor in I was thinking about this the other day like the timeout before three minutes to go where you lose the timeout because it was like hey here's silver and the competition committee I don't even know if that's what they call it it's what the NFL does but they decided yeah there's too many timeouts at the end of games.
Like let's take a timeout away from them. Okay.
Everybody just calls it now. So you could come out of commercial break, one possession of the other team looks up and goes, oh, we're going to lose this timeout anyway.
So let's make sure we take it now. And so we're not getting any time back because the unintended consequence was that you ended up with coaches going, I'll take it before I lose it.
So now my solution would be just give them one less time out. Um, and then you'll be fine.
And back to the original plan. Anyway, the reason I use that as an example is that whenever you're on the fly, trying to read a CBA and the highlights from the whole thing, like we were kind of going, this feels like a hard cap.
And I was almost scared a little bit to go is it a hard cap like is is this going to be a hard cap um but yeah back to the original thing like look man i i do put a lot of thought into this i always wondered if you get to an age where i'd be like you think at this age you'll just go like ah fuck it yeah i watched i watched the fourth quarter. I'm good.
I haven't read anything.

There's definitely ways to cheat.

Yeah, right.

And then I think about the guys that played, and I think about

the coaches and a lot

of the people that work in our industry,

whether it's not

a perfect parallel to it, but there's

so many players that I'll listen to

and go, okay, wait, you have a problem with me, and I

didn't play? Have you

heard your shit?

Have you heard how dumb all your arguments

Thank you. so many players that i'll listen to and go okay wait you have a problem with me and i didn't play like have you heard your shit have you heard how dumb all your arguments i mean there's one person in particular that i'm thinking of right now like if i really wanted to do a 10 minute monologue destroying this person's takes and how fucked they are and i don't know what the motives are behind him but like i could but i really don't want to get in a fight with anybody about that kind of stuff but that's it it almost brings me back.
It's like being a screenwriter where you get really discouraged and then you're like, holy shit, they greenlit that. Let's open up the laptop.
Yeah. So I don't know.
I don't know if we have the answer. I'm just, my point is, I think the NBA has always had had more than a twinge of negativity to it.

And I think it has to do with the personalities and the experience of going to games and having those guys right in front of you.

And the fact that there's a connection that's just different.

Baseball used to have it.

I think the net has really hurt.

I know why they have it.

I get all the reasons.

But the net is just tough. You think the net has ruined baseball? don't say it has ruined baseball i think it's tough i think it's tough i don't even notice really yeah oh man i used to love the energy of like this might be the pitch where a foul ball comes over here or oh you like being on your toes oh loved it nobody's on their toes anymore in baseball.
Middle linebacker. People are just crossing the highway, not worries about getting hit by a car when they go to a baseball game now.
You just be on your phone for 20 minutes. You feel the energy around it.
It's definitely different. Let's take one more break and then we got to talk about the Celtics weekend.
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Just quickly, you tell me if you agree. I didn't prep you for this.
Cleveland, lack of playoff experience, I would go, which just jumps to your head immediately. That's the only thing.
That's the only thing. I love them.
I absolutely love them. Save that, because I want to come back.
Boston, hunger, health, and mileage would be my three. Just the mileage on the guys from the 100-game season last year.
The fact that they won last year. A team like Cleveland is just going to be a whiff-hungerer.
And the health of Porzingis and Drew, I think, would be the three things that worried me. Yeah, the only thing I would say, and it's not fair, and it's probably because I watch them too much but i think they get almost too hunt happy yeah where everything's happening 40 feet from the basket oh we got this you know i get it expose the weakness find the bad matchup you have these two incredible on ball wings you have a third guy and derrick white who can do some of that stuff too i mean they are when it is clicking mean, the offensive numbers are outrageous.
They're terrific. So who am I to sit here and criticize any of this stuff? I criticized some of it last year.
It did not matter, but they can get so hunt happy that I wonder in the way basketball is connected that if other players are just watching somebody hunt the entire time, at least they take turns with it. Some teams will just have their main ball handler hunt the entire time.
It's a minor thing that I noticed, but I'm probably too critical of it because there's no offensive number that tells you, oh yeah, like, uh-oh. I like the term hunt happy.
Congratulations on that. I agree with you, by the way.
I wish they would just run plays every once in a while to mix it up. Just every once in a while, just put Tatum at the foul line and give him a Dirk Nowitzki post-up, just so it's not the same thing over and over again where we're just hunting guys, hunting guys, hunting guys.
Because I do think the defenses can get in the rhythm of knowing it's coming and figuring out tricks. Denver, and we'll talk about that game in a second, but they just have no room for error at all.
If they're not making threes, it gets tough. If anyone, if Gordon's out or Murray's hurt or even Brown's hurt, it gets super tough for them.
If Westbrook just sucks, it's almost like they can't fight it.

I think they could win three straight rounds.

I think they could go four and three

in three straight playoff series or four and two.

But it's not going to be a team

that's ripping through the playoffs. There's just

too many ways it seems like it'd go wrong

game to game. Would be my

red flag.

They have lineups

that they run out there where, and maybe it's a regular season thing look no Aaron Gordon today who's their best defensive player and has been shooting it well from three but he's still somebody that I think teams are going to test um but you know so it's not entirely fair because Gordon's missed a couple games here but they had a lineup where it was Michael Porter Jr. surrounded by Westbrook Brown, who was great today.

But I mean, what was his shot total?

Like if you go into a game.

He took 22.

He took 22 shots.

So if you're sitting there prepping out what you want to do against Denver, you're like, hey, if Christian Brown takes 22 shots, it's probably a win for us today, right?

So it's Michael Porter Jr. who I think is, you know, if you dig into his advanced stuff, he's not the same guy that he was the first couple of years on the scene, even though defensively he was such a disaster then that Malone didn't really even trust him.
I wouldn't say he's a plus, but I think he's a total coin toss guy. If he had 21 or he had three, I wouldn't be surprised.
I also think he plays a little soft, but back to this lineup. So it's Porter Jr., Westbrook Brown, DeAndre Jordan, and Strother.
And when you're looking at some of the three-point shooting against these guys, Westbrook's going to be open. And when he hit his first three, I thought that was a bad sign for Denver with this stuff.
You can also see Westbrook decide he's not comfortable shooting. You can also see Westbrook, it's great that he's probably understood his role better here than a lot of the other places as he's tried to become a role player.
Like, I'd say what, this is stop three as a role player because Washington, he still was clearly the guy. You'll see him be in a hurry to force it back to Jokic, which is showing him being deferential in the way that we weren't used to with so many of the prime Westbrook years.
But I think it can also mess them up a little bit. So whether it was the Lakers matchup or the Boston matchup today, again, without Gordon, isn't entirely fair.
I know you weren't expecting this long, so I'm not going to go this long on the other ones. But I've talked about it being four teams because of the respect for Jokic and Denver was fourth in the FanDuel title odds.
It's those three and Denver's in a sliver tier by themselves because I just don't think they're as good as Oklahoma City,

Oklahoma City, Cleveland, or Boston.

And I don't see how they are going to be as good as those three teams.

I have them fourth as well, but I also feel the Jokic piece

when we get to a playoff where they just are playing the same team

for two straight weeks.

I think that's good for them.

Did you see the spacing

stuff, man? I know. Well, the thing that's

alarming, the open threes today,

how many just wide open

threes they took compared to, did they even

shoot 40%? They were two for

11 on their first 11

wide open threes. Yeah, that's

what would scare me if I'm them.

On the game, they got it back to 34%,

but they're last in the NBA

in points from the

three. So they're percentage points.
However many they score a game, they have the last or the lowest total of points via the three-pointer of anyone. And so then they come to a game like today, like that was going to be really weird if Boston had blown this because approach-wise, hey, here's the plan.
Here's what we want to have happen. It's exactly what you would hope to do to Denver.

Like, yeah, great.

And if I'm Denver, I feel great.

It was a one-possession game.

I didn't have Gordon,

who's my third most important guy.

And I still, if I'm Denver,

and I know I can be in crunch time in the playoffs

with Jokic and Porter and Gordon and Murray and Brown,

I still feel really good about where I'm at. If I could just get into fourth quarters with those five guys, not get crushed on those Jokic minutes.
But even somebody like Torrey Craig feels like they could have helped them. I kind of like the Celtics sneaking out the Torrey Craig move.
I just, Denver doesn't have enough guys I trust. OKC, red flag, just the second score, lack of experience thing.
Just ultimately, if they're down four on the road in a really big playoff game and a team is just swarming Shea and double teaming them, like, who's stepping up? I just want to see it. I'm not down on it, but we just haven't seen it.
It's very similar to the Celtics last year. I just want to see what happens with that.
It'll be interesting if Shea gets his points, Jalen Williams gets his points, Chet, as you'd expect, taking a little time. I thought he was so great in that Brooklyn game when they gave up, what, 76 points to the Nets of all teams with this kind of defense, this historic differential defense based on the league averages.
But it might just be, does Isaiah Joe, Dort, Caruso, Aaron Wiggins. I mean, he's, I've joked about him being one of my favorite players, but as far as like a role guy and stepping up and then what he did in February, I mean, every time I watch a Thunder game, I'm always like, man, do you want to do favorite, favorite bench guys right now? Want to do a team? Because my favorite bench guy is Ty Jerome, just hands down.
Ty Jerome comes in and the score changes immediately. He does nine things.
I love Ty Jerome. I think he's going to...
I genuinely think he's going to make like $60 million this summer. I'm predicting that now.
I too am fond of Ty Jerome. We have him on the pod coming up this week, by the way.
Oh, nice. I'm Thursday.
Great. I'm a huge fan.
I love when he comes in. He's like the most pure bench guy in the league.
Comes in, he's going to play his eight, nine minutes, however long it is. He's going to affect the game.
He's going to make a shot. He's going to have energy.
And in that Friday night Celtic game, I was like, fuck, I hope they don't close with Ty Jerome because Ty Jerome is a problem. By the way, Wiggins is up there for me as a favorite bench guy, too.
There was a moment when Ty Jerome was playing and trying to figure out where his basketball life was going to go. Van Gundy was on the broadcast.
And this is when I knew. And again, anybody that watched him in college, he just he's very different in that that the play is open.
There are options open on his plays that are longer, if that makes sense. It's almost like a quarterback watching routes develop, and he finds a way to give the receivers the extra beat to do whatever they need to do so that you're still defending more shit than you want to defend with Jerome.
And that's why he screws up so of these defenses because you're like there's no way this is going to work and it's a lot of that Nash wrong foot thing or it's the takeoff to pass where guys started remember like almost running out of the way of Nash's drives it actually opened up things for Nash because people were closing out and so freaked about his passing skills and Jerome has these runners where everything is kind of wrong and then you don't really know what's supposed to happen anyway van gundy was on a broadcast and it was almost like your grandfather watching christina hendrix on an episode of madmen for the first time like just this erotic slightly like the way van gundy talked about Ty Jerome's game, it was like he needed a breath.

He needed a moment.

And it makes

all the sense of the world. Like Cleveland, when they came

back, what was really interesting about their game,

they went to 10 guys, I think

14 minutes into the game.

They were at 10 guys.

The Friday night game you're talking about.

Right.

Depending, maybe you take a coral off the table, shot selection, some of that stuff. Let's say nine.
Nine of the guys for Cleveland now are really good. Ty Jerome, Wiggins.
I'm trying to think who else are my favorites. I still enjoy Quentin Grimes.
I wish he was on a good team. A bunch of the Detroit guys.
They play a million dudes. They're playing 11 guys.
Detroit brings their guys in and they're all playing really hard and they're ready to rough people up and get in fights. Red flag.
Set the tone. Lakers is easy.
Rim protection and defending the other team's point guard if it's somebody who can get to the rim.

I think it's going to be a problem for them

that they can figure it out.

And then Golden State turnovers and ball handling.

They still have the dumbest turnovers.

It doesn't matter who's on the team.

They're just going to have dumb turnovers.

They're going to have really bad turnovers in crunch time.

I think it's aging Steve Kerr and like dog ears watching. I think it i think it drives even when they were arguably the greatest team we've ever seen they turned the ball over it's the fatal flaw for steph they play better defense than everybody too on top of being unguardable so and then the last red flag memphis i know you want to do some memphis stuff really quick and then we'll we'll circle back to the friday sund, Sunday Celts games if there's anything left.
But the

Ja not being able to make

outside shots doesn't seem like it and how

everything is so dependent on him just getting

to the rim. I just feel like it's going to be

easy to stop in a playoff series and it

for me lowers their ceiling.

I've watched

him a lot. The

last, I don't know, 10 plus

days. I

watched the Clippers loss.

I watched the Phoenix win.

I don't know, 10 plus days. I watched the Clippers loss.

I watched the Phoenix win.

I watched the Phoenix win in overtime.

The Knicks loss, which could have gone either way.

And they lose to San Antonio, but Ja didn't play last night, right?

I don't think Ja or Bain played.

That's right.

Yeah, because Bain was in a sick, sick hoodie.

I want to be fair about Memphis, you know, because I think that the most dismissive thing you could say is, hey, they've never done shit. Because I hear it a lot.
Like if I talk to teams, they're like, hey, who do you like? Who do you not like? What would you think about this matchup? Whatever. There's a lot of never done shit about a million different teams.
Because you know what? It's really hard to do. Win.
It's hard to actually do shit. Like you could even, I don't even know how Windhorse, like again, it's not a criticism of Windhorse, but I was a little shocked at how often like he was talking about how disrespected the Thunder were.
Whereas once they get into the playoffs, that a lot of this stuff isn't going to work. And that one I don't quite understand.
I don't think it's even fair to judge the Thunder as some finished product. Did he say that about this season's Thunder? He said about, I mean, do I have to bring up the quote? Because it's, I brought it up with Slater.
I brought it up with Slater this week where he, he was basically saying like, again, it's not like he's pulling the entire league, but it's like a player thing. There's just players that look at the Thunder, look at their regular season success.
Now last year you could point to it and go, Hey, look at their health and look at their available guys. They had basically played.

Sacramento had one of those seasons where it's like,

okay, you basically ceilinged out though this entire time.

You 10 out of 10, your luck factor.

I don't understand.

Why wouldn't Shea?

Shea's just going to be as good.

Maybe he has a couple games.

This happened in Boston last year, though.

What do you mean?

There's just this weird, when you say around the league,

there's a feeling like there's not a total respect this was the boston situation last year so what yeah which team has not won that people were like hey that team's gonna get it done well this does it ever happen this circles back to the cleveland piece of it because i think cleveland is fucking terrifying i've said this to you are you ready to pick them over Boston in a series? I think Cleveland is fucking terrifying. I've said this to you.

Are you ready to pick them over Boston in a series? I want to

see who's healthy on the Boston side.

Okay, look, let's just do the game of everybody's healthy.

If you said go to the head right now,

what do I think is going to happen? I think it's going to be really hard

to win a game seven in Cleveland.

I think Mitchell

could not be less afraid of the

Boston Celtics. And he's been this way for

most of the decade. He loves

playing them. They have

Thank you. I think Mitchell could not be less afraid of the Boston Celtics.
And he's been this way for most of the decade.

He loves playing them.

They have two awesome guards, one who didn't play Friday,

and they have length with swings, and they can't stop him.

And if it gets to a situation where there's a couple big playoff games in a series, he's going to think he can beat whoever the best Boston guy is.

And he did it on Friday night.

He was the best guy on the floor in the second half. They have length.
Mobley's better. Mobley was awesome in that fourth quarter on Friday.
Did you see what else they did too? They sat Allen to close. Yeah.
But there was no Porzingis, no Drew. So it's hard to overreact one way or the other.
But the Mitchell piece and their bench, which is real. Hunter, who has always done pretty well against the Celts, who has size, who can at least make guys think, and they don't have to play a Coro.
I think Cleveland's really good. And you know what my other reason is? They only have 10 losses.
It's March 2nd. Cleveland's good.
They should be the favorite. And Boston is the favorite on Fandle.
They're minus 150. Cleveland's plus 270.
I think Boston could beat Cleveland. Yeah, but think about that sentence.
Did you think you would be saying that I think Boston could beat Cleveland two months ago? I think they could. Right.
No, but Boston was the prohibitive favorites and the odds have not caught up to Cleveland yet. They're plus 270 and they're going to have home court advantage in any Boston series.

That's a real thing.

I also like the way

they match up against

OKC too. There's some Garland

stuff with them that Boston, they really went

after it in the Friday game. They're like,

we're just going to attack them. We're going to bully them.
We're going to use

our wings.

Their refs were awful. My dad was

the most upset about the refs that he's been in two years coming home. Could not believe Tatum had five free throws.
Look, you can excuse that game any way you want. That was an awesome win for Cleveland.
To fall down like they did, to have Tatum do they get the fuck out of here thing and then for them to come back. And them knowing that Mitchell might be the best guy in the series If you're just talking about who can score in a fourth quarter on both sides.

So if I'm Cleveland,

I'm like delighted by how the season's going.

So Mitchell,

this season in three games against Boston is averaging 36,

seven and four on 50 and 38.

Feels even better.

Splits.

He's getting all the shots he wants.

He gets the threes he wants. He gets the matchups he wants.
He gets the threes. He wants to get some matchups.
He wants, he gets the runners. He wants, he can get to the rim and this will be like you did that drew holiday extension, right? You did it to make him feel good about last season heading in the playoffs, but ultimately you're trying to go back to back.
And that's a lot of money for a guy who's 34. Who's got now like a fucked up finger-up finger, but that's going to be the series for Drew Holiday.
That Mitchell series, what he can do against Mitchell will be the entire contract. I don't think anyone else...
White doesn't seem like he can get a handle on him, and they're just putting everybody else in switches, and it's going to have to be Holiday, I think. First of all, he's just that good okay like the best version of him he also rejects the screen in that duane wade way where i think when you're really good at that because i just don't know that there's enough like guys that understand when you turn the screen down and you go the other way he also splits it you know again i'm not trying to compare him to kobe because kobe would split screens in ways you're just like oh my god it's mid-2000s wade with three-point range is what he reminds me of because he can get he can get to the basket he can get in the paint but he also has this three point shot that wade never had and he's just so athletic and it's just who is the right guy to guard him when he's feeling it well it's probably not hauser uh as good as hauser holds up like that was one of the things that i was looking at the last two days with boston where you okay every one of these hauser minutes or every one of these curl handoffs where you're getting cornet trying to figure out which side of the paint he's going to try to contest a shot on like those are perzingis and drew minutes so even if drew doesn't end up on him you're now switching into whatever version of this was and now pre de DeAndre Hunter, I didn't care what Mitchell did.
I didn't care about what the regular season stuff. And again, it had gone Boston's way.
So you could at least point to that as evidence, but there was always a bad matchup waiting for Cleveland, whether it was finding Garland or Struis having to start on Jalen Brown or Allen is on Tatum.

They clearly like bringing Allen all the way out away from the rim.

And then if the Mobley lineup is out there with Allen trying to keep him pinned to a three-point shooter.

So basically, you can't have Allen or Mobley ever freelance to the rim.

And I actually think in the matchups where Tatum had Allen, he did a really good job with it because if he wasn't going to be able to finish at the rim, he kind of knew.

And he had a massive game there. That was one of the best Tatum games he's ever had.
He was awesome. He was just the matchups and spots he was picking.
I thought he was incredible in that game. But now that they have these Hunter minutes and they closed with Mobley, Hunter, and then the guards because Garland played and had his moments even though he's being hunted.

And then you have, so Cleveland now has put together

spacing options and the Hunter part of it,

even though it was expensive,

I love that they did this because now it's like,

look, nobody's stopping Tatum necessarily,

but at least you have somebody size-wise

who has a defensive thing to him.

It's a chore to score against him and he can shoot threes. Look, the point is, is even without Przingis and Drew in there, maybe it feels like a mistake.
Cleveland's the favorite. I agree with you.
I couldn't believe the odds. I couldn't believe they were plus 270 with home court.
I was stunned. The thing you mentioned.
Down 25-3 and then you win. On the road.
I'm glad you mentioned that Allen not playing in crunch time, because I actually thought there was a chance they were going to bench Garland in crunch time and play Ty Jerome, because he was so good in that game. They have different lineups they can do.
They can go a little smaller. They can go a little bigger.
They can go big in their backcourt. If they feel like Garland is too much of a defensive liability and Mitchell's feeling it, they can just yank them.

And I think Atkinson has a real feel for what the team is.

And he has all these

different options. I guess I just don't like the

default, and I'm guilty of it too. We have a really hard time

with New. It's hard to

be ahead of everybody going,

you know what?

If I were to listen to somebody and be like, Cleveland

hasn't done it, Boston has,

and that be the reason? That's not a reason. It's ignoring a lot of basketball stuff.
There's not a reason. Now, one thread I was on was convinced that Joe Maz didn't play Torrey Craig in that fourth quarter and did all that Hauser stuff because he didn't care about the game because they're the two seed anyway.
He wanted Cleveland because Joe Maz is, you know, he looks at things completely different than everybody else. But he's like, I don don't really care about this game I'm going to try this and see if it works if it doesn't work I just won't do it if we're actually in a playoff series the Porzingis piece I think is still going to be a genuine problem for the Cavs if he's healthy that's the matchup because the other thing is he allows when Mitchell's going to the basket now there's somebody coming over with their hand up who's just a little bit of a different person to contend with.
And if they want to go double big, you still have to respect, you obviously have to respect Przingis. You feel like Boston has the stretch options.
And we might be both making mistake declaring Cleveland the favor right now. No, the whole point is...
I just think they're that good, man. If we're doing percentages and it's we're going 100% 100% percentages Boston, Cleveland, that's it.
I would say it's like you love when I do this. I would say it's like I'm writing it down.
I got my pen. I would say it's 55-45 Cleveland in my mind.
I think there's more outcomes when Cleveland beats Boston than vice versa. And I think that game seven in Cleveland really matters.
And everyone always discounts their shit. And we've had some upsets.
We had Minnesota go into Denver and beat them into Game 7. I know there's games where that happens.
But Mitchell, this might be like a Mitchell year. I wouldn't rule it out.
And it's also, he's an interesting MVP guy now because it's obviously Shane Joker as the top two, and I think Tatum's third. But if Cleveland ends up like 67 and 15 with all the stuff, you almost have to have a cab in the top.
It'd be weird for them not to have someone in the top three. So, and it's clearly Mitchell, but amazing year by him.
Kudos to him. I was a little iffy on him last year with uh some of the decision making this year I'm not well they went to seven games at Orlando yeah you know and Orlando who if you really want to have a bad time watch them on offense this season it's funny too because Cleveland ran the zone where they had Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill at the top of the zone and you're looking at Orlando's options and be like I know with the zone it can like mess you up a little bit and also screws up Orlando's offense that their top two usage guys are 30% each from three and Paulo and Franz so that's going to put a dent in your plans um but I was watching this going how can you guys not figure out a way to attack friend of the pod Sam Sam Merrill, and soon to be friend of the pod, Ty Jerome? I know they're in zone, but teams will stop screening with zone or they'll stop cutting.
They just get freaked out. I mean, Orlando's offense is terrible against everybody in every incarnation.
But this is one of those deals where everything seems to be working out for them and they can be a really like,

you know,

we could say how depth is overrated in the playoffs,

but there's nothing to me that's overrated about options and they have depth

and lineups,

lineup options.

Yeah.

And okay.

You think about that Friday game.

And again,

no drew,

no KP,

but Tatum had 46, 16 and, and the Celtics lost at home. That's a little alarming.
Tatum had, I think, the best all-around regular season game I've ever seen him have. And especially the rebounds with him, which just every game now, it feels like he's going to get to 10-plus rebounds and 7-plus assists.
His decision-making was amazing, and the Celtics still lost. So if I'm Cleveland, I feel great about that.
All right, I think we agree on that. And I would still have OKC.
I guess the last piece we didn't talk about and we probably should really quick is just maybe there's not a lot to talk about that the Lakers, I just think both of us are taking them seriously as a real playoff team. Just because it's two weeks, you just have to go four and three to get to the next round.
Is that a team that can go four and three every two weeks? I think it is. So I'm taking them seriously.
Whether, I still feel like Denver's above them. And I like your idea of Denver being in the slight layer under the top three.
I would still have them fourth, whether

under-tiered or

however. And then Lakers-Golden

State is the next two, I just think is

how I'd have it. I wouldn't have the Knicks with those two.

I just don't know

how the Knicks defense is going to be enough.

It's too easy to score on them. I know they have

Mitchell back now, and

the lack of depth is really an issue.

If Mitchell's there in round one, then I'm going to to reconsider but i just don't trust it do you that's a massive leap to be like that team is going to get through i mean unless somebody does them a favor so they only have to face one of the two top teams to get through it but how focused are you on pistons knicks because i'm like a 10 out of 10. I love watching the Knicks though.
Even with my doubts,

that Knicks because I'm like a 10 out of 10 I love watching the Knicks though like even with my doubts I that Knicks Memphis game the other night you know awesome we didn't really do a very good job on the Memphis thing so let me just end it this way yeah there's so much that I like about the team I think Bain is just solid all the time I don't know that Aldama gets enough credit you know they're working a couple other pieces. I think the Edie thing is still not necessarily great.
And I don't know if it's because Bill Gurley. He was out there in crunch time on Friday night.
I was shocked. Bill Gurley had kind of a tweet that was like, I'm really smart and you draft guys are kind of fucking morons.
And it was like the general premise of like overthinking something and ultimately becoming wrong when he was taken. And it's like, look, man, I think you're not really understanding the NBA part of this where there's a lot of teams that'll sit there in the war room going, hey, the guy we're about to draft is not nearly as good as the guy we're passing on.
Right. Yeah.
Like they know this. These teams are not as stupid as people want to make them out to be but if you're a team that doesn't have a track record of attracting free agents right so you're not a destination franchise you never use caps based on anybody maybe you don't have necessarily trade assets the reason why players like ed would go a little bit later in a draft which've already covered some of this stuff before, is because you feel like they're already close to their ceiling, and you're like, hey, I know that Amen Thompson is this or Sir Thompson is this, but what if this raw 1% athlete who we like his personality, and I'm not comparing Thompson like thompson going where he went and you know it's also different draft classes but there's there's something you have to understand with teams that when they're selecting guys they know the mistake they're potentially making but they're thinking about the high ceiling part because the addition of talent is so incredibly challenging in this league more challenging it's tougher to be a gm in basketball than any of the other sports so for teams that are watching what's that i'd go football no way i think it's so hard to draft in football it just seems like it's a fucking crapshoot but can you imagine having a top four quarter top four pick right now trying to decide whether you're gonna to get fired if Cam Ward doesn't work out for you?

Do you want to do this? I don't know that you're prepared to do this with me. I just think it's harder.

I'm not willing

to get into our debate about it.

I just think there's more players. There's more

positions.

Yeah, but the cap thing is the

same for everybody.

There's no soft part of it.

There's no

massive advantage Thank you. the same for everybody.
There's no soft part of it.

There's no like there's no massive advantage

in the five destination cities

in the NFL

that you have in the NBA. So if you're

have not in the NBA, like Utah can be

putting together the best plan ever.

Is anyone ever signing there?

Right. The NFL

doesn't have that. You don't even have real free agency in the NFL.
So on top of when a guy wants a trade, you're like, hey, or we'll just franchise you. And you can miss out on a top five salary at your position.
Belichick took the kill Harry over DK Metcalf and AJ Brown. Yeah, but he can't drive receivers.
So that's not a good argument. Belichick traded out of the Trent McDuffie pick and passed up on George Karlaftis to take Cole Strange.
I just think the draft is like, it almost like breaks their brains how stupid some of this shit is. NBA isba is more simple it's like you're going like your ed point do we want to take a guy who has a chance to be potentially like an awesome guy someday or do we just take 12 and 9 from zach edie for the next five years memphis was like that sounds great we'll do that right because then it becomes a debate is it easier to draft in the nba or are they better at it and i just when it comes down to the quarterback part of it, it's something that we can't criticize for an officer getting wrong.
It's the process of evaluating these guys. It's just, no one's figured it out.
It's too flawed of a thing. All the, it'd like be watching somebody run really fast in basketball and his dunks are awesome.
And then being like, look at all that athleticism and quick twitch stuff. Now he'll be good at quarterback.
But we both like Didi. Yeah, we both thought Didi was a rotation guy.
We thought he was a rotation guy, but a closing guy for the Memphis Grizzlies. That I did not see.
That I did not see, sir. And he's also one of the best post players we've seen in college basketball.
He's got good hands. Do you want to guess how many post-ups he has per game right now in the league? Doesn't seem like a lot.

1.6.

Yeah.

So you're drafting him and you're asking him to post up 1.6 times per game. Well, it's a weird thing with Ja because all Ja does is go to the basket.

So then you have Zach Eadie just kind of wandering around.

Not great.

You can't really post up Zach Eadie and have John Morant.

Another thing for my NFL-NBA thing, we have seven conversations going on at once here, by the way. It's two hours into the pod.
I'm groggy. You can't bring in a new coach in the NBA with basically the same roster and then just be a completely different team.
And there's also the math of the games where a team, a couple one-score possession games go their go their way all of a sudden you're a four-win team and you go to like a nine-win team and you're just like man we really figured it out it's like now actually just recover more fumbles but right there's there's very little that you can do um and then also look in the nba with the way the drafting works the second round guys again the second round thing was like the most overrated thing ever and people just love that hanky was stockpiling all these second round picks but it was so fucking stupid there's no nba draft part where you're like oh in the fourth round have we grabbed an all-pro middle linebacker right that doesn't happen so i don't know maybe we can maybe we can do this on the hit show ringer.com. Team debate.
Team debate? I don't know. The more drafts I watch, sometimes it seems like easier than ever.
Like Zach Eadie clearly was going to be a rotation guy. I couldn't believe there was even a dialogue about it.
He's seven foot five and he has good hands. You're going to get four good years out of him.
Wait, so now I don't even know if we're arguing the same exactity point. How about we do this? Do you like Memphis in the playoffs? No, I don't.
I don't like Memphis or Houston. I just think it's too early for both of them.
But is it too early for Memphis? Because that's something like this has been a very weird three-year stretch for this team. To say the least.
Yeah. So you go back to 22.
And I always liked Memphis. I like their rawness, their anti-establishment, the next generation of grit and grind.
And then when they played whoop that trick in game five against Golden State when they killed them. Yeah, and I actually I think I did a monologue because Chris

Vernon sent me just a tear emoji

after the open where I

went, I want Golden State

to beat

their fucking brains in

when they play in game six because I was like, you guys

are really, really feeling yourself.

You're down 3-2 in a series. Maybe

don't play. It was an elimination game, 3-1 to 3-2 but it was it was a lot it was a lot from those guys and so then you have the jive shoes then you have the injury issues and so like that was a they had a seed not that long ago when they were hurt against the lakers right where no one gave him a chance necessarily in that series that was the Dylan

Brooks thing but everybody ended

up not liking him all that much so

this is kind of like year four of this group

but I

don't know that it's like oh they're incapable

because they haven't done anything when they

weren't really fully formed at all

don't you feel like they're a regular

season team that I

just have less faith in the playoffs

about because of

I don't know I just think teams are going to have better options in crunch time when we get to April, May. And they're trading baskets in the fourth quarters.
I just, I also don't think their defense is as good as I thought it was going to be. The teams put up big point numbers on them.
You notice that? They're way more run and gun than I think I was expecting from them this year. Yeah, but they're defensive numbers because I looked it up the other day.
But they'll have these games where they're like 126 to 125, shit like that. That Knicks game was a wild game.
That was like not a, I will say it was not a defensive game. Yeah, so I got So I have the same six that I had before.
And next, hey, Robinson looks awesome for them. Maybe we could reevaluate that in a month.
Do you want to do a quick deep dive before we go? I do. What do you want? You go.
We can do it fast. We'll do it in like three minutes.
I'm still on the pyramids, to be honest with you okay any any new news with the pyramids yeah just because like the last guy that built the pyramid after his you know the lineage of of rulers um he was like okay well my grandfather did this and then my father did this. So how about we do this?

I'll build a slightly smaller pyramid just because the other guys,

like you really had to sacrifice. Because basically people were like,

Hey,

these pyramids take a fucking long time and a lot of resources.

And maybe this isn't the sweetest deal for your constituents.

Right.

Yeah.

So I liked that.

It was,

it was almost like an ideological shift of the Pharaohs.

Thank you. deal for your constituents right yeah so i like that it was it was almost like an ideological shift of the pharaohs that it was like if we're gonna do a pyramid how about a little smaller yeah yeah it felt like a real transition of like i still gotta do one i still gotta.
But I'm going to take it easy on you guys.

Did they ever master the pyramids?

Was there ever a moment where like with baseball where they just figured out guys got to get on base and let's get on base any way you can?

So is there a pyramid?

Is there a pyramid version of OBP?

That matches not putting the ball in play in too many relievers yeah that's my question they never probably right at the end right at the end of the third dynasty maybe i could have my my tables wrong but yeah i'll check on that what do you got um i really ben and i watched shane gillis on snl last night and had a great time and laughed a lot. And I started thinking about how I think he could have been the biggest star on the show in the last 10 years.
And that set me down a long deep dive of how he didn't end up on the show. And I was watching different clips.
Here we go. And there was, well, we'll leave that aside.
But there's all this different videos and stuff. And one of them was this two-minute video of Louis C.K.
Just blistering Shane Gillis. Half fun, but half whatever.
Because he was so mad that he was doing an ad, but also about to throw the podcast to a Patreon. And he was like, how much money do you need to make from this podcast? Do you really need the money that bad? And Shane Gillis was like, I actually do.
But I was just down this whole Shane Gillis rabbit hole thinking about how interesting it would have been if he had just become like Will Ferrell on SNL. And I don't think I was alone with that last night because I thought some of the stuff last night was great.
The monologue was as awkward as it's ever been. It's just such a bizarre fit of performer and audience, whoever's in that crowd where they're just a band behind them, which a lot of people were pointing out.
The band's like, can we laugh at that one? Can we do that? But his sketches and the couple of beers thing was fucking great. I thought they really felt like they were pushing the envelope a little bit in a way that reminded me of some of the best eras of the show.
And it was just like, man, this would have been so interesting if there's this alternate universe where he's just on the shit, like nothing happens. He never says the dumb shit and it never comes back to haunt him.
And he's just on the show, just kind of doing that same ride that like Will Ferrell did and Phil Hartman, some of these other guys, like what would have been the destiny of that?

Anyway,

I was deep diving that for an hour last night because I couldn't sleep.

I saw the couple of beers thing.

I haven't watched it yet.

I did watch the monologue because I mean, he even talked about the first monologue.

I think he was nervous.

Like it was,

yeah,

he was.

So I've seen him,

I think four times now,

whenever he's around,

like I want to make sure I can go check it out. And look, I like him.
But last night, I think there's still this disconnect of people can't understand where he's at. And even though it's like that stop, start thing he does.
If you're not used to it, you're kind like what's he doing yeah like there was obviously like peak whatever you know political lines you you want to argue like snl was aligned with i think there was a peak where it was probably like a lot for anybody like i remember they did a news a weekend news thing or whatever and they went to some correspondent that was talking about the movie lineup and that essentially every movie was centered around white male rage. Right.
And so whoever the correspondent was that was doing the spoof was just yelling like white male rage, white male rage. And I wasn't offended as a white male.
I was offended because it was so fucking stupid. It just wasn't funny at all.
I felt like because of wherever we were at in our discussions, at least as a country at the time, it was like almost a cool thing to try to do. And it just didn't work.
It wasn't really funny. And now I've looked at different SNL clips.
It's like, oh, you can see the shift a little bit. Be like maybe some of this pandering stuff that we were doing, or maybe it was people internally that worked on the show.
We're like, no, these are important things like we're going to do. You can see there's been a very clear shift of like, let's actually start making fun of both sides a little bit more than we were.
So then I don't know if that sets the tone for like what Gillis is walking into. But I think some people look at Gillis and think it was he talks about Trump when he comes out and says, I'm going going to miss trump being in debates that for some people it's like this massive red flag that goes off like oh this guy's a trump guy you know he's yeah white he's from pa like clearly he's a trump then he goes right for biden right after right so i don't think first of all i don't think he's as conservative some people think he is and the way that that'll like, it'll happen with certain people.
Like they'll already be like triggered to go. Oh no.
Like this is a Trump, a pro Trump comedian out here. Cause he just said, I'm going to, and then he makes fun of Trump the whole fucking time.
So he's kind of just making fun of everybody there the whole time. I'd ask you this though, like him bounced I knew who he was but not as

good and then pretty quickly I

was like man this guy is he's

probably my favorite going right now I think

he's really smart on top of being

like the guys that play the goofy

thing but also are incredibly smart with

the way they structure the stuff that they're doing

is always going to like make me want

like I'm like okay I'm in this isn't

just set up set up joke

or whatever I think there's some layers to the

stuff that he's doing that's really impressive to me

Thank you. is always going to make me want...
I'm like, okay, I'm in. This isn't just set up, set up, joke, or whatever.
I think there's some layers to the stuff that he's doing that's really impressive to me. But do you think that changed? Because at the time, it felt like, and I'm doing a bad job with this, that was the best thing that happened to him because it put him on everybody's radar.
But you think the long-term ceiling for him, back to the Zack Eaddy thing, is lower. I don't think it was the for him okay you do go yeah i do i i think it set him back a couple years um but and but ultimately became part of his story and he got over it but um you know i don't think it was i don't think it was good for him that the thing that really helped him was putting that comedy special on youtube and it was just great the one i think he did it in austin whatever that was the one when ben was like who's this guy and we were just we would watch it over and over again and we thought it was just so fucking funny like the trump stuff everything the isis thing when i saw the isis thing live in arizona i i mean he just had everybody i mean his whole premise was i and again like that's a pretty good example of what we were talking about.
I don't think he actually is cheering for ISIS. Right.
But his whole story and playing it out of getting you to understand why he's rooting for ISIS for all of the reasons that he's laying out. That's brilliant shit, man.
Yeah. Well, and that's also, that was the bones of SNL.
And it was a lot of the SNL 50 stuff um when they're going back through the old cast and you think like that 70s cast especially part of what made made that great was they just didn't give a shit they tried everything and now you think he has a sandler like potential sandler timeline that's not reachable now i what do you mean well if he's if he's the main guy and he's really funny he's on snl for 10 years feels long today i think it would have been like five years and i think he probably would have done stand-up stuff and then i don't know what the next thing is but i think he'd be i think it would have been really good for him and i also think the show needed somebody like him which was i think the reason lauren the new lauren book that came out has a little piece on it. Like he wanted a different type of cast member than they had and somebody that did a lot of stuff Shane did.
So I think it would have been really good for him. I also think he would have played Trump, which would have been huge for him because he's really good at it and you've seen him do it a bunch of times.
Anyway, good deep dive. Anything you got to plug before we go? Ty Jerome on Thursday..
Oh, Les Claypool. Primus Tuesday.
Birdie taped it. Really? Yeah.
Oh, congrats. Good luck with the facial hair.
Uh, I will see you in a week. We'll see what's changed in the world of basketball.
Good to see you. Thanks to, uh, Saruti and Kyle Gahau as well.
Don't forget, you can watch this on the Bill Simmons YouTube channel and you can watch it as a video

on Spotify as well. I will see you.
New

rewatchables coming Monday night. We did an Oscar winner,

Rosillo.

I'll text you about it. Keep it in secret.

Who did you

want to win the Oscar?

Oh, we're taping this for the Oscar.

I was really hoping Mikey

Madison would win Best Actress because I thought

that was the best performance I saw this year,

but it doesn't seem like, as we're taping this, doesn't

Thank you. Oh, we're taping this for the Oscar.
I was really hoping Mikey Madison would win Best Actress because I thought that was the best performance I saw this year. But it doesn't seem like, as we're taping this, it doesn't seem like she's going to win.
I thought she was great. I thought she was awesome.
Best pick. I think Onora is going to win.
And by default was part. But I didn't see The Brutalist.
So I'm not going to pretend I'm Wesley Morris. I just still didn't see it.

I will at some point.

I just didn't see it.

And I didn't do the thing where it's like,

I got to see every movie before,

you know,

I just didn't get to it yet.

I'll say it at some point.

What do you have?

I only watched those two movies.

Oh,

and I saw Dune.

I saw Dune.

I saw Chalamet at the Lakers game.

I know.

He was,

sitting a couple rows in front of me. I wanted to go up to him and be like, Hey, here's the deal.
It's not about me. Will you go on with bill? Here's come on with both of us.
Yeah, no, no. I want you to just, I want you to ice.
I want you to hunt him like Darius Garland. Um, I think it's very clear.
Chalamet would come on with you if he knew the request was in. I feel like people don't know how big of a deal.
I think there's a pretty big PR armada. Yeah.
Yeah. It's going to happen.
I'm not worried about it. They're turning out everything.
But any kid that waits outside MSG to meet Amari Stoudemire when he's 10 or 11, that guy wants to go. He already name checked you so yeah this is this is an auto so i thought

is there any way i'll get a but as i've gotten older i'm like i'm never going up to anybody

anymore because it just yeah it doesn't work you can come up to me i'll be over here

briscilla see you next sunday see See. I don't have a few years with them on the wayside on the proof of our never-runs I don't have a few years with them Must be 21 plus in President Select states for Kansas in affiliation with Kansas Star Casino or 18 plus and present in DC.
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