Chappell Roan Says All Parents Are Miserable. Is She Right? | Episode 21

So who would you rather hear motherhood advice from?

A 27-year-old childless lesbian pop star or a beloved seasoned mother?

In my opinion, the choice is clear, but the internet stands divided.

So last week, Alex Cooper had two very different women on her show Call Her Daddy, and they both organically spoke about motherhood.

And the timing was just too perfect because their opinions could have not been more contrasting, which, you know, is a beautiful part of life.

It is a beautiful thing that we can have different opinions and share those on the same podcast, but this has certainly sparked a debate online about motherhood, about happiness in parenthood, and who exactly we should be listening to when it comes to this type of wisdom.

Is it somebody like Chapel Roan or is it somebody like Ellen Pompeo?

And is there one formula for happiness and does it require being a parent?

We're going to figure that out today.

Now, before we dive into this story, make sure that you're following our podcast page and please rate the show if you're enjoying it.

And if you want to come join us on tour, we will link all of our stops and the places to buy tickets in the description below.

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We're hitting the road this spring.

I think it'll be a ton of fun.

So Ellen Pompeo, who is the star of Gray's Anatomy, which is, I think, one of the longest running shows on TV at this point, she technically went on Call Her Daddy first and brought up motherhood, but her interview was nowhere near as viral as Chapel Roans, nor did it start the conversation.

Chapel's did.

So let's take a listen to this now viral clip.

All of my friends who have kids are in hell.

I don't know anyone.

I actually don't know anyone who's like happy and has children at this age.

I have like one year old, like three year old, four and under, five and under.

I don't, I literally have not met anyone who's happy, anyone who has like light in their eyes, anyone who has slept.

No one.

Everyone is in hell.

Everyone she knows is miserable.

They don't even have light in their eyes as parents.

I mean, that is a broad generalization.

That is a very damning, sweeping statement that she is making.

And it's even more concerning or hurtful or damning when you realize who exactly she's talking about.

This all came up when Alex asked Chapel Rone about her friends back at home.

She's from the Midwest, who she says that she is closest to.

She always says those are the people that she maintains the best relationships with.

And she goes into this whole conversation about how they have more normal lives compared to her, you know, pop star celebrity life now.

They have houses, they're married, they have children.

And then she immediately jumps into saying that they're all in hell and that she has not met a happy parent, that all of her closest friends back home in the Midwest are miserable.

Now, to be fair, a few minutes later, she does clarify that they're in hell because they love their children so much, they're dedicating so much of their time to their children.

But I mean, truly, what a miserable, I guess that's the only word I can use, a miserable, broad sweeping statement to make.

But also, if you know Chapel Roan at all, if you have watched her on social media, if you listen to her music, you probably know that positivity really isn't her thing.

Like, she's always bitching about something.

Like, somebody's always out to get her, something's out to get her.

She's always talking smack about the paparazzi or the press or people who are interviewing her.

Like, victimhood is kind of her MO at this point, and I honestly just laugh at it.

But regardless of all of that, these comments in particular really struck a chord with people.

And why wouldn't they?

I mean, especially on a personal level, like imagine how hurtful it would feel to be one of these close friends that she's talking about and feeling like she is a safe person to vent to about the sleepless nights or the terrible twos and thinking that you can confide in her and share all parts of your life, the good and the bad.

And instead, she takes that and she blasts it online on a huge platform as part of a generalization about the choice that you have made in your life.

A choice that is obviously hard.

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Now, going back to Chapel's friends and the choices that they made and the things that they confided in her with, I was not the only person who immediately thought of them.

Like before diving into any discourse online about parenthood and happiness, this was the first thing that people brought up.

Like one person said, Chapel Rone going on call her daddy saying none of her friends with kids are happy is a prime example of why you cannot just vent to anyone because I guarantee she has this perspective because a few of her mom friends are going through it and may a friendship like that never ever ever find me.

May the friendships of narcissistic childless women with no sense of loyalty ever find me.

LOL, true.

Another person on Reddit said, someone who doesn't have kids presuming to speak for other people on the topic is a bit goofy.

There is also a possibility that she is such a negative person that her friends who are parents see her as a safe person to vent to, which is very true.

Your negative Nancy friends, those are the people that you often go to if you just want to feel validated and you just want to just like drama dump and just like word vomit about things.

But usually, you don't expect them to be some kind of celebrity who then goes and basically rats you out online for millions upon millions of people.

I mean, literally the last thing you want is someone to take your venting, especially about something that is as precious and private as your children, and then to have that be blasted online for such a large audience.

And from afar at least, it feels hurtful that that is how she allegedly genuinely sees her closest friends, that they are just miserable people who are in hell because of their miserable choices.

And she, as Chapel Roan, is wiser and far above that as this childless 27-year-old Hollywood punk drag pop star.

But she apparently knows everything about the world.

But I will tell you who actually sounded wise on the Color Daddy podcast, and that was Ellen Pompeo.

And she sounded wise because she didn't call anybody out because she didn't paint any broad generalizations about half of the population.

She didn't say that you must have kids or that it is the easiest thing in the world or the only way to find happiness, but she did talk about the depth that it brings to your life.

I mean, she was literally glowing when she was talking about her children.

Just take a look and just feel the contrast between these two statements.

I'm not 100% at work when I have kids at home.

I'm absolutely not.

You cannot be a mother and have children and give 100% to your job.

You can't because there's a part of you that somewhere else you split into different pieces.

You're no longer just you.

And do you know what that does?

It makes you more soulful.

It makes you richer.

It makes you funnier.

It makes you feel more.

It makes you more empathetic.

It makes you angrier.

It gives you this range of emotions that you can't even imagine.

having without this person.

As women, we evolve anyway.

And you're going whether you, I'm not saying kids is the only path, plenty of people don't want to have kids and that's great for them.

But if that's something that you want, that's only gonna make you better.

You know, you're gonna morph into, you'll morph into that person who part of your being is a mother.

And that's only a plus.

I mean, the entire thing was a net positive.

She didn't shy away from saying that it makes you angrier and it's harder and maybe you won't give 100% at work.

But it's this incredible thing because of the depth, because of the purpose that it brings your life, and because of how it changes you as a person, which is always a good thing.

We should always be striving to grow and evolve.

And she's looking at this and she's saying, this is the most, you know, for her, the most incredible way to do that.

And I mean, you see people online and they're like, oh, parenthood is so hard.

Yeah, well, nobody has ever said that being a parent is easy.

Like, even the best parents who love their children cannot hide the fact that it's hard.

I mean, you are literally raising tiny human beings.

You are fully responsible for the development of these little humans.

You are trying to teach them and protect them only to 18 years later, push them out into the world and hoping that they succeed.

Like I fully expect that to be the most challenging and gut-wrenching, yet rewarding and life-giving experience I will ever have.

Because it is so complex, because it is so nuanced.

Like I crave that.

That's just how I feel.

Like I want to feel that magic that Ellen is talking about in that interview.

But it is all about your attitude and your perspective.

If you constantly view yourself as a victim with the world out to get you, if you see sacrifices as hell and sleepless nights and maybe some inconvenience as misery, then yeah, you probably wouldn't want to go through that.

You probably wouldn't want to experience something like that.

But that doesn't mean that being a parent is some kind of objectively terrible thing.

And I don't even want to say that what Chapel said was awful or unkind because at the end of the day, I kind of just laugh at it.

Like I looked at that clip and so many people were melting down about it and I was like, are you kidding me?

Like that's immaturity.

I literally just look at that as immaturity.

I can't even take her seriously and it's unfortunate that anyone does.

And now clearly her statement was inflammatory enough to basically break the internet for the last couple of weeks because she has been everywhere.

Honestly, the story is not going away.

Just like, take a look at these headlines.

This is just from today.

There's so many.

Chapel Rohn says, parents of young kids are in hell.

Chapel Rohn divides the internet.

Popstar angers conservatives.

Okay, it's not just conservatives.

Everybody had an opinion about this.

There are liberals who are parents.

I don't even see this as a political issue.

And I wish we would not make it so polarized because it impacts everyone.

regardless of how you vote.

But even though she is all over the mainstream media and all over our Google search engines, she really made waves on TikTok.

Like, that is really where the conversation brewed, where mom after mom after mom was using her soundbite to then post videos and photos of their life and their children and basically say, I promise you, Chapel, like, this isn't hell.

Like, here is just one example of probably hundreds that I have seen over the last couple of days.

All of my friends who have kids are in hell.

I don't know anyone.

I actually don't know anyone who's like happy and has children at this age.

I have like

a

one-year-old, like, three-year-old, three-year-old, four and under, five and under.

I don't, I literally have not met anyone who's happy, anyone who has like light in their eyes, anyone who has, who has slept.

I mean, guys, like so, so many videos and they were all so innocent, just like this one.

Like, yeah, I might be tired, but this is amazing.

And I just loved this mom's caption in particular.

And she said, no sleep, sure, but the light in their eyes makes mine shine brighter.

Like, I am willing to go through the sacrifices because they make everything worth it and they make that joy that much more impactful.

They make me that much more fulfilled.

And I personally, I don't know how you guys feel, but I personally felt like all of these videos were incredibly innocent and also very valid.

I mean, this was a huge viral moment.

This started a national, maybe even global conversation.

These parents simply wanted to share the joy that they experience in their life since apparently that wasn't seen.

Since apparently one of the world's biggest pop star was getting on the world's biggest female podcast and saying, yeah, you're all miserable.

You're all in hell.

Haven't met a happy one.

You all look terrible.

Like, obviously, people are going to respond.

And 99% of these parents weren't even attacking chapel.

They were just sharing their own experiences.

And maybe I perceived it that way because I want to be a mother and I'm excited about that period of my life.

But many women online did not see it that way.

They saw the response from happy parents as an attack back on them.

So now basically we have everybody thinking that everybody's attacking them and everybody hates their life choices and we're not really getting anywhere.

For example, in the large and quite notorious, in my opinion, our slash child free subreddit.

I don't know if you guys have ever taken a gander on that page, but it is certainly something else.

But there are countless posts, posts, I mean, hundreds and hundreds of replies just picking apart the women who responded to Chapel saying, I'm tired of having everybody attack me for my choices.

I'm tired of people saying that I need to be a mother.

All of these people pushing their happiness on me.

How dare they do this?

Like, okay, guys, it goes both ways.

None of this is actually productive.

A mom posting a joyful video of her kids and celebrating motherhood and parenthood is not an attack on you.

And I'm so sorry if you feel that way, but that's not about her.

Like Chapel saying that her close friends are miserable and airing out their dirty laundry and that she's never met a happy parent ever.

I mean, that is more of an attack.

That is putting words in people's mouths and they do have a right to respond, even if it's not directly towards her.

They have a right to comment on it.

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Like again, this should not be a political issue.

This should not be an issue that only one side is talking about or only child-free or only parent should be talking about.

Like for example, if I sat here, and I said that anyone who doesn't have kids leads a miserable life, you would also have the right to respond.

I would hope that you would respond because you have a different opinion than me.

And that's also not honest of me to say.

Like, I know tons of people who do not have kids, who made the choice and are very happy with that.

And guess what?

That's great for them because that's their life and their choice that they've made.

And I wish them all the best in that journey because obviously that is what they want.

I know that that's not what I want and I probably view happiness and fulfillment in a different light than they do and through a different lens.

But again, that's okay.

Now where I do have a problem that very often gets manifested in this current situation is when people twist their own insecurities and their anger about their choices and then use that to attack other people.

And that really is what's happening right here.

And based on what I'm seeing from that child-free section of this conversation, they see a different choice as hell.

That is what is driving this conversation.

It is a choice that they don't want to compromise or sacrifice for.

And that is literally what a USA Today writer said.

Because in her headline, she said that she agreed with Chapel Road, that she does think that moms around her are in hell.

But when you actually read the article, when you get to the crux of her argument, you see that it's really that to her, it sounds like hell to give up her current life.

Just read this.

She says, a big part of that is that I'm a single woman living in New York City.

For now, this is exactly where I want to be.

I can imagine having children would require me to either move away or drastically change my lifestyle, something I'm not ready to compromise on just yet.

A white picket fence and a house in the suburbs is nice, but it isn't for everyone.

I get to make those decisions for myself instead of just following the path I'm expected to follow.

I'm sure my opinion could change if I met somebody who feels passionate about having children, but for now, I enjoy being childless in my 20s, so does Chapel Run.

Okay, great.

That's totally fine.

That is all you needed to say, but you don't need to conflate that with somebody being in hell and living a miserable existence.

You are literally just saying, yeah, I don't want to change my life.

And guess what?

That is totally fine.

But if that really is your issue, then be honest about it.

I mean, you were in your article.

Like, don't lie about it.

Do not project your insecurities over this choice or your indecision on the matter onto moms, especially not the moms that you know that you are calling miserable, that you are repeatedly saying have terrible, terrible lives because of the choice that they have decided to make.

That just isn't being honest with you or anyone else.

That is turning your decision into everyone else's problem to probably make you feel better or more virtuous about your current situation.

And Clarkson Lawson, who I love on TikTok, put it well.

Take a listen.

It's a catch-22.

Two things can be true at once.

When you have kids, you sacrifice some of your freedom.

And some people

don't want to do that.

So then they're miserable and then they hold resentment towards their children for taking that away from them but I think what it actually comes down to is we have a society that no longer values responsibility and no longer values sacrifice so the idea of having children turns people off because the idea of doing anything for anyone other than yourself is something that is extremely foreign to the American public It's very, very true.

I mean, he is spot on.

And as I keep saying, it's not a political issue.

This is a cultural issue that goes far deeper than that.

I mean, this is not about misery.

It is about sacrifice and what we value as a society.

And for a lot of people, based on their principles and what they value and what they deem is important, that sacrifice does end up leading to deep joy and deep fulfillment.

And again, make whatever choice you want.

It is your life to lead.

I'm not here to tell you what to do.

But if we're being honest, which is, you know, kind of the theme here, is that the statistics are on Ellen's side in this debate, if we even want to call it a debate.

Like, take a look at these numbers.

Married mothers are the happiest.

The highest percentage of very happy people in our society are married women with children.

And as for for married fathers, they are also the happiest percentage of the entire male population, coming in at 35%, which is a huge jump from the unmarried without children, 13%.

And these numbers, guys, they are not just from some small organization.

They are from the General Social Survey that has been running since 1972.

This is our nation's largest, most respected, most rigorous research body that seeks to understand American attitudes at its core.

And this is what they found about parenthood.

And every year the same thing rings true.

Parenthood does always lead to a higher life satisfaction in all of these reports, but it is also important to note as kind of a caveat here that it is always in conjunction with marriage.

It's not just that the children themselves make you the happiest in the world.

It is that that stable family environment where you are in pursuit of something good that is hard, that is challenging, but so rewarding, it is that that makes people the happiest.

And also the link between marriage and happiness is frequently stronger in these studies.

So it isn't just about having children, but it is about relationships and the depth and the meaning of those relationships.

That is what provides happiness.

Now to broaden this further, to paint an even wider picture for you guys, this is also not a new phenomenon, even though that study only goes up to 2022.

Like this study, for example, was conducted in 2012.

In defense of parenthood, children are associated with more joy than misery.

How about that, Jabelron?

And also, the same goes in other countries.

It's not just America.

Both the European Social Survey and the International Survey found that parents were scoring higher on the happiness scale than non-parents were.

And this was especially prevalent in countries like Norway and Hungary and Switzerland that prioritize strong supportive family policies, which by the way, I do think that America could do a lot better.

I'm not somebody who sits here and says, this is perfect.

This is so easy.

Everybody should have children because it's the easiest thing in the world.

No.

It is especially hard.

And I am not talking about universal health care because that is what people always go to.

They say, I can't have kids because I don't have universal health care.

That's where everybody's minds go to.

My mind goes to tax credit for parents and the betterment of our school system so that they feel confident putting their kids in schools, the strengthening of the economy to make life easier for families, a less bloated and government-invested healthcare system, which I think would make things a lot easier for families.

That is all stuff that we can do to make this easier, to hopefully make parents even happier.

That and strong marriages would make this argument even more of a slam dunk than it already is after years and years of studying it.

But per usual, guys, I still think that we can go deeper.

I still think that we can figure out what is the root of this argument.

What is the root of this joy?

Like what makes parents feel that depth and feel that magic?

What makes this experience feel so fulfilling and eudaimonic as the Greek philosophers would say?

Well, it's the exact thing that the Chapel Rhones and the USA Today writers of the world want to avoid at all costs.

Sacrifice.

At the end of the day, that is what is causing this joy.

I mean, when you look at the happiness statistics in all of these studies that we just talked about, when you dive deeper into what they're actually looking at, it's not just momentary joy and momentary pleasures that they're exploring.

It is a deep fulfillment in a range of emotions that these parents are going through.

Because those same parents that experience extreme levels of happiness also experience higher levels of stress, especially in those earlier years of parenthood, which Chappell did point to.

They do experience heartache.

They experience sleepless nights, but that just makes the joy stronger because they have purpose, because they are sacrificing for something good.

And that is why there are so many people in the world who do find joy and fulfillment outside of having children, because those people almost always have deep, purposeful lives.

They're not just floating around chasing material things, trying to be some hot single woman in New York.

No, they have something deeper that's driving them.

Either of these parties shy away from the sacrifices and the challenges.

And that, in my opinion, is what brings fulfillment.

That is what makes life worth living.

I mean, this is like a core tenet of Jordan Peterson's philosophy, which you probably know if you've even watched one video of his, because he talks about it so much.

Having challenges and making sacrifices, that is what makes life so full.

Take a listen.

So the idea is that you have to give up something of value now

so that you make the future better.

And sometimes it's even something you love now.

And that's a good example, too, because often the things that stop us us from moving forward are our attachments to things that we should no longer be attached to, right?

If you're not moving forward in your life, there's a high probability that you have some idea or some mode of action or some habit that you're so in love with that you won't let go of it.

I mean, I literally want to send this to Chappelle.

I want to send this to this USA Today writer and just be like, just take a listen.

Like, I don't care if you have kids, but you should understand that this is probably why you feel that tension, why you feel so upset with this conversation and why you are so quick to paint this insecurity onto other people, you should evaluate everything going on and figure out what is actually going to drive me, you know, beyond just being a hot single lesbian chick in New York City.

And again, Jordan has said far more than what was just in that clip, but this is something that he brings up repeatedly, like rightfully so.

This is one of my favorites that I also wanted to include just for good measure.

The Alliance for Responsible Citizenship blogged about this last year, and they said, in Jordan's words, sacrifice is being willing to give up something in the hopes of attaining something of greater value.

Something that is deferred, mature, rich, and harmonious with the lives around you.

It is integrating our personal desires with those of our family, our city, our nation.

It is the higher principle that puts hedonistic self-gratification in its right place.

And then this author jumps in to comment on what Jordan just said, and they wrote, stepping up into responsibility always takes sacrifice.

And the life of responsible citizenship creates a virtuous cycle, an infinite upward spiral that carries us higher into prosperity, truth, and meaning.

Sacrifice means together, we all experience something greater.

This is the adventure that we are called to.

This is the better story.

And of course, that is up to each individual to determine for themselves, like what that story will be, what that higher calling is.

But we should all be in pursuit of greatness and fulfillment and depth.

That is not something that we should shy away from because we are worried about being uncomfortable.

And that requires sacrifice.

You can't avoid it.

You can't go through life wanting to have a deep, fulfilled life and just avoid feeling the hard things and going through the hard things.

That's just not how it works.

And so when parents talk about the joys and the magic and the depth that brings them, this is the reason.

It's not because they think that they're all better than us or that your choices are bad or that they're attacking you.

It's because they most likely have experienced a deeper sense of purpose than the person who stays rooted in their current situation due to convenience or material gain.

Like, that's just a fact.

I'm sorry.

The average mom out there has probably experienced more depth than Chelsea Handler, who has basically made her entire brand about not wanting kids on this premise, on the premise of convenience.

Just watch.

Oh, Bonjour, it's me, Chelsea.

I decided five minutes ago that I'm going to Switzerland this afternoon.

Guess why?

Because I don't have children.

That means I can pick up and go wherever I want, whenever I want.

If my girlfriends want to go to the Bahamas on a Tuesday, what would I do if I had kids?

Leave them in the car?

Being child-free means you can travel the globe without anyone holding you back.

If I want to do mushrooms in the middle of the afternoon on a beach in a vita, I can, and so can you.

Just say no to kids.

And of course, she's making jokes about all of this, but after like 15 years of this, it kind of becomes not a joke.

It's like, okay, Chelsea, we get it.

You want to do shrooms in the middle of the desert and you don't want to have kids.

That's fine.

But stop pretending that all of your comments are anything other than it is.

You're just overcompensating because you do feel insecure about your choice.

And she's not the only one.

I mean, the other one that comes to mind is freaking Seth Rogan, who very famously a couple of years ago said, we're effing psyched all the time.

We're laying in bed on a Saturday morning smoking weed, watching movies naked.

If we had kids, we could not be effing doing this.

And listen, that's their decision to make.

I'm not here to tell them what is right and what is wrong, but they are choosing to not make that sacrifice.

And the problem that I have with that is not that they're not choosing to have kids, because again, that's their life, but it's to take somebody else's choices and paint it as some kind of miserable hell just so that you can have some kind of momentary emotional gain and feel better about yourself.

And I genuinely laugh about Chappell's comments because I'm sure that she thought that that was some kind of edgy and very introspective and inflammatory thing that she said when literally parents hear these messages constantly from every angle, from Hollywood, from social media, from pop culture, and they have been hearing it for years.

So, yes, the point of this entire episode is that we should all be willing to sacrifice and go through hard things and grow and make our lives better to bring us closer to fulfillment.

And for that reason, I personally choose to revere parents and celebrate them because they are doing that every single day.

Because they are doing the hard thing, they are doing something that is challenging in pursuit of greatness, not just for themselves, but for these tiny humans that they brought into the world, which, in my opinion, is one of the most inspirational things a person can do.