S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic

Speaker 2 We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union.

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Speaker 14 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Speaker 74 It is Bulwark After Dark tonight.

Speaker 32 I am here with the Bulwarks Managing Editor Sam Stein.

Speaker 77 We are taping right after the very professional call of the Wisconsin Supreme Court race made by the Decision Desk HQ, Dave Wasserman, and others.

Speaker 80 And I got an early flight tomorrow, and Sam's kid has a tick in his or her head.

Speaker 81 His.

Speaker 82 Thank you for the revelation. It was not enjoyable pulling that thing out.
Hope I got it all.

Speaker 23 So we're doing a late night taping tonight.

Speaker 83 So buckle up, everybody.

Speaker 84 We're punchy.

Speaker 85 All right, listener.

Speaker 29 You might think that, you know, the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, is that really worth it?

Speaker 76 Is that really a late-night taping thing?

Speaker 25 Is that something I should care about?

Speaker 33 And let me tell you, if you have any doubts, I want to play for you.

Speaker 88 One of the world's richest men discussing this Supreme Court race just the other day.

Speaker 90 They think it's, well, it's just, you know, some kind of judicial thing that's not that important. But actually,

Speaker 90 what's happening on Tuesday is a vote for

Speaker 90 which party controls the U.S. House of Representatives?

Speaker 90 That is why it is so significant. And whichever party controls the House,

Speaker 90 you know,

Speaker 90 to a significant degree controls the country, which then steers the course of Western civilization. So it's like,

Speaker 90 I feel like this is one of those things that may not seem that it's going to affect the entire destiny of humanity, but I think it will.

Speaker 90 Yeah.

Speaker 93 Susan Crawford, the Democrat-aligned judge,

Speaker 94 you are affecting all of humanity, the destiny of humanity.

Speaker 87 Sam, what do you make of it?

Speaker 9 Good.

Speaker 82 Good. Did you hear the guy scream at him?

Speaker 92 No pressure.

Speaker 82 No pressure.

Speaker 79 Do you feel like Western civilization was on the line in Waukesha County tonight?

Speaker 82 I mean, I personally did not, but

Speaker 82 maybe I'm happy it is, right? We get a little bit of, as Elon sees, we get a little bit of a turn here. I'm happy with that we're turning civilization in a new direction.
Are you not?

Speaker 87 I'm happy.

Speaker 42 I'm happy that Elon's sad, and it felt a little overwrought to me.

Speaker 82 Just a little.

Speaker 92 Just a touch.

Speaker 79 Destiny, are all of our destiny settles on this Wisconsin Supreme Court race?

Speaker 82 This race that Elon heard about maybe, you know, four weeks ago and decided, you know what, I'm going to put 20 million in there.

Speaker 96 I think that there are a couple of things that are really important about the race that may be a little short of.

Speaker 79 you know, the fate of Western civilization, but I think are pretty important.

Speaker 97 Number one is Elon Musk

Speaker 98 cannot just go buy races.

Speaker 22 And I think that there are people, particularly on the left, particularly progressives.

Speaker 8 I had some folks who have come up to me that are like very worried about just elections going forward, Elon monkeying with it,

Speaker 89 the Twitter, the bots, the amount of money that he has.

Speaker 84 If you can't buy a Wisconsin Supreme Court race, then it's going to be very much more challenging to buy bigger races.

Speaker 80 It sounds like you can't buy any race, but I think that it is.

Speaker 82 Yeah, let me stop you there because

Speaker 82 I hear you, but what happens in a race where there isn't such donor enthusiasm on the Democratic side, right?

Speaker 82 Like the actual total amount of money was relatively matched in this race, but you know, there's hundreds of races, hundreds in the cycle. Sure.

Speaker 30 Could he steal a random mayor's race somewhere?

Speaker 14 Sure.

Speaker 106 To me, I think that Elon Elon is not magic.

Speaker 88 He does not have scary magical powers.

Speaker 38 Like He is not able to manipulate the vote, the machines.

Speaker 82 Here's what he is. He's just a man.

Speaker 108 If anything, he's

Speaker 108 what I was going to say.

Speaker 36 He backfired.

Speaker 28 I think Elon's money,

Speaker 104 I think, probably, which we'll get to next, it was the nature of the backlash against Trump and the nature of how these special elections work and the nature of the coalitions.

Speaker 95 Susan Crawford was probably going to be the favorite no matter what.

Speaker 95 But I think Elon was a net negative on this, and even including the $20 million that he put in and the $2 million bribes that he gave to random twinks, college Republican twinks yesterday.

Speaker 99 I think even in spite of that, I think he was a net negative.

Speaker 11 Oh, yeah.

Speaker 82 And I'm a little bit surprised that they had him show up, honestly.

Speaker 82 Like if I were, if I were, you know, the Republican Party in Wisconsin, you know, I would have said, thank you, I'll take your check, but can you just, you know, maybe like not come to the state?

Speaker 82 His numbers are terrible. And frankly, I think a lot of these races are way more referendums on him and Doge than they are on Trump.

Speaker 82 And so I feel pretty strongly that he was a net negative in a serious way tonight.

Speaker 29 So I think that is important going to the midterms because Elon is not going to disappear.

Speaker 20 You know, it's not as if I was on with John Halliman earlier and John said, I think rightly, I don't object to this observation, but he's saying that the Republicans in the House who are up in tough races

Speaker 19 and swing districts are hoping that like a rebuke of Elon will get him to chill out and go away.

Speaker 85 That ain't happening.

Speaker 82 or maybe to get Trump to push him away, right? Maybe Trump looks at

Speaker 82 all Jonathan Martin. We're talking about the, I don't think this happens because of the money, honestly.

Speaker 82 But, you know, that was the, that was the premise of the, of this Jonathan Martin story, which is like they want Trump to say, ooh, this is not good.

Speaker 82 And, you know, maybe that's like the nice side benefit from this race. And that Trump is like, you know what, we got to kick Elon to the curb.

Speaker 82 I don't see it happening, but it doesn't mean that there aren't people who aren't hoping it happens.

Speaker 85 Yeah.

Speaker 29 I agree with that. So Elon being toxic,

Speaker 103 I think, is an important takeaway from the race.

Speaker 107 Another important takeaway, as Elon mentioned in his speech, so there's one thing he got right, is I do think we'll see.

Speaker 16 Like Wisconsin has a really terrible gerrymander.

Speaker 105 Having a 4-3 Democratic Supreme Court might make a difference in that.

Speaker 117 It might make a difference as far as the House of Representatives is concerned.

Speaker 38 I frankly don't think the House of Representatives will probably be that close in the next midterm, but that's that's meaningful in the micro.

Speaker 82 But if it were, this would help. Yeah.

Speaker 87 Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 38 So I think that's meaningful in the micro.

Speaker 24 A turnout is pretty good. It was not quite as good.

Speaker 78 It doesn't seem yet.

Speaker 36 I mean, it's like we haven't obviously counted all the votes in Wisconsin yet, but it doesn't look like it's proto-Saywitz, kind of, like, which was the big post-Row Supreme Court race there.

Speaker 113 But like, pretty good turnout from the Democrats there.

Speaker 38 And then we'll get to Florida.

Speaker 88 And so I think that is also encouraging.

Speaker 25 And I think those are all, and it happened in obviously a state that's going to to be very important in the future.

Speaker 105 And I think this also affirms something that we've been talking a long time around here, which is like that these coalitions have totally flipped in the old Obama era situation where Democrats did better in midterms and in special elections and Republic, or excuse me, where Republicans did better in midterms and special elections and Democrats did better in general elections.

Speaker 106 Like that has totally flipped.

Speaker 99 And there's this hilarious kind of irony kind of it might not be funny for some people, but the Wisconsin also passed a voter ID tonight.

Speaker 19 And I really don't think people have internalized, I think it's a very small minority of people that internalize the fact that voter ID, whether or not you think it's a good policy, probably helps Democrats now.

Speaker 95 It used to help Republicans, and I think it probably helps Democrats now.

Speaker 82 It's much closer to a wash now.

Speaker 82 Yeah, I mean, I think Democrats are still wary of it because of the effect it might have on African-American voters, but you are right in that the Democrat coalition is way more heavily tilted now than it was, I don't know, eight years ago on educated and engaged voters who are much more likely to have ID.

Speaker 82 And that is, you know, that's what we're seeing throughout these special elections.

Speaker 82 And probably what we'll see in the midterms is that people who are engaged politically are going to vote Democratic and they're coming out.

Speaker 82 The only hope that Republicans have is that they can nationalize all this stuff and bring out these Trump voters. But that's really hard

Speaker 82 on special elections or random Supreme Court races as we've seen tonight.

Speaker 75 All right.

Speaker 96 There's some specials in Florida that Republicans won, but there's some also some maybe green shoots for Democrats.

Speaker 78 In Florida, one, your favorite candidate, Gay Valamont, she lost by 15 to Jimmy Petronas.

Speaker 106 She ran against Matt Gates in that district, and she lost that by 32.

Speaker 95 This is like the Florida panhandle.

Speaker 19 This is a redneck Riviera, Flora, Bama.

Speaker 82 Yeah, this is District Trump won by, I believe, 37 points.

Speaker 80 It's pretty red.

Speaker 109 And, you know, somebody named Gay.

Speaker 87 If only she was named Gay Vusain

Speaker 15 Hussein Voldemort,

Speaker 76 then we would really be in business.

Speaker 82 She's pretty close to being named Gay Voldemort, and she ran the panhandle, and she only lost by 15.

Speaker 82 Honestly, there should be some clause in the Florida Constitution where if your name is Gay Voldemort and you come that close, you get to co-serve. You can't run with that name.
We respect you, gay.

Speaker 44 It's great. I'm happy to be able to do that.

Speaker 81 I respect Gay.

Speaker 82 I respect the gays and I respect Gay, but it's just really hard. And I think you should get 15 points, a 50% point.

Speaker 10 What's the long version of

Speaker 16 the female gay?

Speaker 20 Gay Lord is the male version.

Speaker 10 Gayatrice?

Speaker 96 I don't believe it's Gayatrice.

Speaker 82 No, I don't think so. What are we doing? It is a late-night podcast.
Gay, I apologize. I apologize, gay.
I don't mean to do that.

Speaker 93 Escambia County, Pensacola, 22% more Dem.

Speaker 26 The surrounding ones also about that.

Speaker 82 This is why I was taught into Gay Voldemort. No Democrat apparently has won Escambia County for president since 1960.
I learned that on Twitter tonight, but Gay won it. Gay flipped it.

Speaker 108 Gaylene, which makes sense for the plan handle.

Speaker 83 That it'd be Gaylene.

Speaker 46 She leans gay. Yeah.

Speaker 43 Lesbian Baltimore.

Speaker 124 Okay, over in Florida 6 and

Speaker 76 a similar demographic over in Daytona Beach. Mike Waltz won that district by 33 in election 24.

Speaker 88 Randy Fine, who's a fucking piece of work.

Speaker 109 He's a Republican.

Speaker 2 He won by 14 over Josh Weil, who's a math teacher.

Speaker 76 So neither of those reasons end up being that close.

Speaker 82 15-point loss for Gay, 14-point loss for Josh Weil, but like that does not bode well and explains why Elise Stefanic got pulled out there was some chatter last week that um randy fine was in trouble um but the chatter was mostly generated from uh republicans hoping to two things one set expectations and two get as many national resources or attention on this race as possible because again it goes back to can you nationalize the race can you get those trump voters engaged and you know i think they succeeded in that but then you step back you say wait a second that's like a 15 to 16 point swing and and i will note this is I thought, you know, the data points are actually more interesting in the micro in that they were breaking that each county's in these districts.

Speaker 82 And the swing was universal. I mean, it was uniform.
It wasn't like, oh, there was just larger turnout in the more educated counties and like, you know, less turnout.

Speaker 82 No, every single county was moving in the Democratic direction about the same percentage points.

Speaker 82 And to me, that I think is way more significant than anything else because it signifies that this is just an across-the-board frustration or you know anger towards Trump that we're seeing manifested.

Speaker 82 That is why people like Elise Stefana cannot leave the House.

Speaker 103 And I mean, in Wisconsin, obviously you have more of a kind of a diverse demographic, you know, because you have like white working class areas, black areas, and Milwaukee college towns, you know, than you do in kind of these red districts in Florida.

Speaker 101 And again, this stuff is still coming in right now, but as of now, it was like 23 of 25 districts Crawford did better, or counties rather, Crawford did better than Kamala, you know, so so almost across the board.

Speaker 98 And then it was totally across the board in Florida.

Speaker 93 You know, the thing that jumps out to me that special elections, because of this nature of these coalitions we're talking about, where

Speaker 106 the more complicated it is to vote, you know, and the harder it is to get people to turn out to vote, the better it's going to be for Democrats, at least in the short term.

Speaker 76 So I think specials are even a little bit better than midterms will be for them, just

Speaker 17 based on coalitions.

Speaker 110 Obviously, a bunch of stuff could happen between now.

Speaker 25 If we're in a recession

Speaker 107 and next November, you know, obviously there are other elements at play here.

Speaker 80 But I I just look at this and it's like, okay,

Speaker 41 you know, and if they're going to run 19 points better in these districts, you know, that brings in a lot of red areas into play.

Speaker 11 And I do think that like, this is my number one message to Democrats who call me is I'm like, they should look at these, you know, R plus 10, 12, 13, 14 districts and try and try to get some surprise.

Speaker 22 I think that there could be some surprise wins.

Speaker 82 Or at least make Elon spend a few

Speaker 122 spend money.

Speaker 5 Get people running.

Speaker 82 Civilization is dependent on all these things, you know.

Speaker 93 This is why we did the run for something episode.

Speaker 104 It is less dire in these areas than I think the conventional wisdom is.

Speaker 38 I think Democrats have some huge structural problems, particularly in the Senate and these red states, but in local elections up through Congress, congressional elections, I don't know.

Speaker 82 Right. I mean, the Senate's like a totally different conversation.

Speaker 82 Here's what I think about this.

Speaker 82 One is that I know that the run for something people have seen historic engagement. So I think people are jazzed.

Speaker 82 Two is there's been this sort of talk, and I know Lauren Egan's going to address this in her newsletter that comes out Wednesday night about how, well, the Democratic brand is so damaged and people like Democrats and like the party is going to, you know, never resuscitate itself.

Speaker 82 But that data point is bunk. Like, I just think people need to get over that data point.
Like, we were there with the Republicans a while ago. These things are cyclical.

Speaker 82 And also, people, this is really just a referendum on Trump and Elon. And then three is that.

Speaker 14 Thermostatic polarization, Sam.

Speaker 82 So yes, that's a more technical way to talk about it. And three is that

Speaker 82 you do need to challenge every race. And the reason you do is because even if you don't win them all, you have to sort of create a bench for future races.
And

Speaker 82 I'm reminded of how in 2009 and 2010, you were there. I mean, like, Obama had 60 Senate seats.
Like, the House majority was massive. All the state houses were Democratic.

Speaker 82 It felt like, and then he just lost it all.

Speaker 36 I was working in Iowa then.

Speaker 35 So I was thinking of like Dave Loebsack.

Speaker 107 It's like this random super left professor at Iowa ends up beating Leach, who'd been there forever, who'd been a Republican, who'd been there forever.

Speaker 76 You know, so you win surprising places. Like that race didn't even have any ads in it.

Speaker 97 And this guy wins.

Speaker 82 No. And yeah, and they will, and they'll be shocked at the races that they actually win.
And

Speaker 82 you just run for it and you hope for the best. And sometimes you catch Lenning and Bottom.

Speaker 117 Yeah, one last thing that's going to have been meaning to mention this because it's relevant as a local perspective for Louisiana.

Speaker 88 People wouldn't have noticed this.

Speaker 76 Civilization did not rest on these four amendments that we voted on here in Louisiana last week in the special election.

Speaker 104 But the Republican governor, Jeff Landry, was pushing these kind of changes to the Constitution.

Speaker 95 They're on taxation and legal issues.

Speaker 112 And they're kind of arcane,

Speaker 8 except for the tax element.

Speaker 95 The rest of them were pretty arcane.

Speaker 105 But there was a big push from Democrats and activist groups here in Louisiana that was just like, vote no on them all, y'all.

Speaker 107 And there's like a little ab campaign around it.

Speaker 82 Just vote no, no to Jeff Landry, no to what he wants f him basically was the campaign like there wasn't even a ton of education on like what the actual ballots were it was just like say no to this resist it and they got slaughtered like his ballot initiatives got slaughtered here which would i kind of in louisiana well it's a catchy phrase it is catchy phrase so no to them all y'all all y'all yeah anyway i i think that there are obviously positive signs there even even here in deep red america imagine what this podcast would have been like if uh crawford lost well it would have have been kind of like the podcast is every other day

Speaker 80 so it's not that hard to imagine

Speaker 46 it would have been tuesday

Speaker 14 it would have been that hard to imagine it's a fair point though to you know you shouldn't overinterpret but i just like at this point there's so many trends to this direction that it's like okay I agree with that.

Speaker 82 I agree with that. Everyone's like, don't read into special elections, but no, I'm going to read into it.

Speaker 112 Yeah, we're going to read into it. All right.

Speaker 105 What else are we going to fucking do?

Speaker 2 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, these words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 6 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 10 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 15 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 24 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 32 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 37 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 41 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 44 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 47 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 52 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 60 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 69 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 73 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 74 We're to talk about Corey Booker.

Speaker 1 Let's talk about Corey.

Speaker 92 Corey Booker

Speaker 27 Boy, he hit the record for a filibuster, record-long filibuster.

Speaker 103 I didn't think he could do it just kind of bladder-wise.

Speaker 108 Like when like Corey did.

Speaker 82 What's the longest you've gone without peeing?

Speaker 18 Well, you know, I've got got that dog inside of me, Sam.

Speaker 31 So probably, probably a while.

Speaker 48 I don't even know what that means.

Speaker 44 Probably a while.

Speaker 26 I just, that's why I kind of feel like I'm a little made of sterner stuff than Corey.

Speaker 87 I was wrong.

Speaker 12 Corey, Corey surprised me.

Speaker 38 What was the final number? You got 25 plus.

Speaker 80 25 hours plus.

Speaker 12 Record filibuster.

Speaker 122 I have some thoughts on it, but let's play a couple of clips.

Speaker 31 Let's first

Speaker 112 play a hymn talking about kind of the moral moment.

Speaker 126 This is an American moral moment. This is the question of where do we stand stand for health care? Where do we stand for social security? Where do we stand for VA benefits?

Speaker 126 Where do we stand for our American neighbor when the call and commandment of every faith in our land is to love your neighbor? What is the quality of our love, America? Now is the time.

Speaker 126 to get angry, but let that anger fuel you. Now is your time to get scared for what's happening to your neighbors and let that fear bring about your courage.

Speaker 126 Now is your time to stare at despair and say you will not have the last word because I'm going to stand up and at least I can give one person hope in this country.

Speaker 126 Can I give one person hope in this country?

Speaker 126 And so what do I want from my fellow Americans? Do better than me.

Speaker 126 Do better than we in this body.

Speaker 108 That's a lobar.

Speaker 126 We are flawed and failed people.

Speaker 126 I see people showing up at our town halls yelling at us, Democrat and Republican, do more. How are you letting this happen? Well, I hate to tell you we're doing all that I can think of.

Speaker 126 This is why I'm standing here to try to give voice to those people but what is more needed for now is less people sitting on the sidelines

Speaker 102 i think that was in like hour 22 or 23 you can kind of hear his voice going his mouth a little dry and so yeah just like being able to summon that kind of uh

Speaker 98 spirit at that hour is pretty impressive.

Speaker 76 And, you know, I think there's like a tendency to want to go into from us in pundit world, like go into figure skating judging on this.

Speaker 77 And for me, it's just like, man,

Speaker 31 he's trying to get people going.

Speaker 87 Will it work? I don't know.

Speaker 85 Like, will it land with people?

Speaker 26 Will it land with just one person?

Speaker 37 I don't know.

Speaker 25 But I think that it is like at least being responsive to this thing that we've been talking about a lot, which is like, there is a demand out there for people to say, fuck this.

Speaker 113 Like, come on. Like, we can do that.

Speaker 76 We can fight this.

Speaker 22 Like, it is not, don't despair.

Speaker 112 And he was at least being at minimum, and maybe more than this, he was being responsive to that demand.

Speaker 82 Well, look, I think, and I'm going to try to articulate this in a way that makes sense.

Speaker 82 Clearly, voters want Democrats. Democratic voters want Democratic lawmakers to do more.
I will say also that it's clear to me that there's not really

Speaker 82 much more that Democratic lawmakers can technically do that would stop what Trump and Musk are doing, right?

Speaker 82 In order for them to make that point to voters that really the power to resist and oppose Musk and Trump rests in collective action and public action.

Speaker 82 Something like this had to happen. Corey Booker or someone had to make a personal sacrifice, a historic personal sacrifice in this case, to say, look, I get it.
I'm doing this.

Speaker 82 It's not going to do anything.

Speaker 82 It's not going to stop a piece of legislation. It's not going to cause Republicans.

Speaker 31 Stall the day.

Speaker 42 One less day.

Speaker 46 One less day, yes.

Speaker 82 And maybe, and look, maybe, you know, the next step, Chris Murphy should get up and take the baton and do one more day, right?

Speaker 82 Like you can make the case, but it's not going to ultimately lead to, you know, something not passing that could have passed otherwise.

Speaker 82 Maybe, maybe Republican lawmakers move by it, but that's about it.

Speaker 82 But in order for him to make the case to people that, look, you are where the power of resistance lies, he had to make a sacrifice along these lines. And I watched not all of it.
I watched

Speaker 82 a decent amount of it. And I thought

Speaker 82 he succeeded in that. And I thought the last hour, especially, was a really remarkable,

Speaker 82 considering how exhausted he must have felt, a really remarkable weaving of history, of the civil rights movement, and all that, and his own life experiences into the current political moment that we are in.

Speaker 82 And I have people who I have, you know, sources now who've federal workers who have been in contact with me for weeks, you know, total despair.

Speaker 82 among these people, especially today, and we can, we'll get into it, I know, because there's so many cuts today.

Speaker 82 You know, they lost their jobs today and their livelihoods, and they were just like, I'm sobbing watching this. Like, he's channeling everything I feel right now watching this.

Speaker 82 And that's all you really can ask for, right? Like in politics, is doing that, is channeling people's emotions and directing it into something constructive and good. And I think you accomplished that.

Speaker 113 I agree with that.

Speaker 11 And you make a good point about like who is the target here, audience, for this. In a lot of ways, really, it is

Speaker 85 people that are anti-Trump, right?

Speaker 26 I mean, they're Democratic partisans or maybe not, but they're anti-Trump and anti-what Musk is doing.

Speaker 87 Right.

Speaker 15 And

Speaker 26 they are looking for somebody to be a leader, to channel their energy, to demonstrate sacrifice, to encourage them to get off.

Speaker 14 Like all the things that you said, like, right?

Speaker 86 And I think a lot of times when people get into the analysis of this sort of stuff, it's like, well, well, this win over the swing voter and Waukesha.

Speaker 38 And it's like, no, it's not going to win over the fucking swing.

Speaker 108 Obviously not.

Speaker 22 But like, that isn't the only objective.

Speaker 94 Like, that isn't one objective of politics.

Speaker 29 It's one thing people need to do.

Speaker 38 But there are other elements of this.

Speaker 104 You know, there's the legislating element, there's the leadership element, there's the motivation element.

Speaker 110 And so I agree with you. I think you're successful in that regard.
I want to put one other clip that just kind of gets into the core of what the substantive policy critique was he was offering.

Speaker 126 I asked you, are you better off than you were 72 days ago economically? I asked that question.

Speaker 126 Ask it to your friends. Are they better off economically?

Speaker 126 Well, I don't see how they could be because prices are up, stock markets down, the risk of recession is climbing, consumer confidence is in the gutter,

Speaker 126 401k plans are getting losing value.

Speaker 126 Are you better off than you were 72 days ago under this president's leadership on the verge of his so-called liberation day that's going to drive prices up even more?

Speaker 15 Again, this is another example of like something we've been talking about.

Speaker 37 It's tough.

Speaker 14 The strategists are all like pivot to kitchen table issues.

Speaker 22 And it's like hard, right?

Speaker 29 Cause how do you get attention for that?

Speaker 6 Well, like, this is a way to get attention for it, right?

Speaker 38 And I do think while I've been like, you know, banging for more kind of emotional reaction from the Democrats on some of this, on the democracy stuff and the deportations and all that, you know, this is a way to get into the economic issue.

Speaker 12 And I think in a way that is pretty compelling, right?

Speaker 83 Like that, that, that is, that speaks to like the political opportunity for Democrats, which is what are people getting out of this?

Speaker 84 I think that is a better framing than being like, our egg prices are up or, you know, trying to troll around that.

Speaker 29 It's like, no, it's like, have you gotten anything out of this?

Speaker 82 You also don't want to hook it to one thing, but yeah, I think that's right. Like, what have you gotten out of this? In fact, what have you lost out of this?

Speaker 85 Right.

Speaker 82 There was that, and then there was this, the last anecdote he told.

Speaker 82 Again, I thought the close was really remarkable, but the last anecdote he told, which was his personal story, as weave through what's happening to NIH and science.

Speaker 82 And he's talking about Alzheimer's research. And he's like, what is more unobjectionable than funding Alzheimer's research? Like, we all know it's a scourge.

Speaker 82 We all have loved ones or relatives or friends who've been affected by this horrible, horrible disease.

Speaker 123 We have a role.

Speaker 82 We have a bipartisan role to solve this stuff. And yet here we are cutting this research, retarding our progress on this stuff.
And why? For what? We can say that again.

Speaker 82 Well, that was not in the negative sense, the pejorative way. Wait, wait, way to go.

Speaker 65 Fuck you.

Speaker 42 Anyways,

Speaker 82 what was I saying? So, yeah. And then he talks about being with his father, who was suffering from Parkinson's or something.
I don't, I want to be, I'm sorry if I'm being inaccurate here.

Speaker 82 And having to walk him to a bathroom so that he could urinate and having to help him take down his pants and all that stuff.

Speaker 82 And it was just like, oh my God, you know, you talked about kitchen table issues and that, It's not what we conventionally call kitchen table issue because it's not about, you know, the price of groceries and stuff.

Speaker 82 But goddamn, you talk about that stuff at the kitchen table, right? Like everyone talks about it at the kitchen table.

Speaker 82 And look, you might be right about the intended audience, but there was another intended audience, I do believe.

Speaker 82 And that was the Republican senators who were in the chamber or who are maybe just watching, who have worked on this stuff with him in the past and who might say, you know what?

Speaker 48 Like, what are we doing?

Speaker 82 Just like your question, what are we doing here? Like, come on.

Speaker 14 Maybe that was the intended audience, but I think

Speaker 74 he should focus on a gap audience, okay?

Speaker 75 Like, let's just

Speaker 87 get a little high on our own supply here.

Speaker 122 The Republicans, the scales have fallen from Ron Johnson's eyes tonight, Sam.

Speaker 82 I would say maybe not Ron John, but maybe Lisa Murkowski.

Speaker 92 Maybe Mitch Murkowski.

Speaker 82 Maybe Kenny Valdemore was watching. We don't know.

Speaker 5 I've got one other,

Speaker 108 just we have to do this because it's a political podcast.

Speaker 86 He's thinking about running for president.

Speaker 9 Yeah, of course. I'm just sitting there.
I'm just leaving that there.

Speaker 122 Aren't they all? That's a real thing.

Speaker 82 It's basically a prerequisite for somebody else.

Speaker 44 Yeah, but they're all thinking about it.

Speaker 87 This is a real thing.

Speaker 94 And I don't know.

Speaker 83 I'm open to everybody. Everybody get out there.

Speaker 26 You're yawning already.

Speaker 109 Sam, we got a lot of time left. We got a lot of time left.
All right.

Speaker 100 Pull it together.

Speaker 122 Pull it together.

Speaker 17 The people don't pay $0 for this podcast to have a yawning guest.

Speaker 46 Did I just lose this guy?

Speaker 78 All right, so Corey's going to run for president.

Speaker 85 It was pretty good. More, more is more.

Speaker 110 More is more.

Speaker 2 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, these words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 22 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 10 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 15 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of of everything they do.

Speaker 24 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 32 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 37 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 41 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 44 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 47 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 52 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 60 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 69 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 73 That's pendo.io slash podcast.

Speaker 101 I've got one other out-of-boy to a Democrat that I want to close with.

Speaker 114 So this is a very unusual podcast today.

Speaker 117 But first, we've got to do a little serious stuff.

Speaker 83 As you mentioned earlier, a total bloodbath today at HHS.

Speaker 107 Our new colleague, Jonathan Cohn, who's awesome, and everybody should sign up at thebork.com for his newsletter if they haven't yet,

Speaker 107 has a new one out tonight.

Speaker 104 RFK Jr.

Speaker 95 Guts, America's Health Bureaucracy.

Speaker 99 It's been a little hard for me to follow this because like a lot happened.

Speaker 114 And I guess also before you tell us what we know, we've had amazing feedback from our listeners and viewers and readers who are in the government or friends who are.

Speaker 98 We have a tip line, thebork.com/slash tips.

Speaker 104 Folks have been sending it in.

Speaker 95 It's totally anonymous.

Speaker 119 So if you or a friend were hit by these cuts, please tell us your story.

Speaker 110 But anyway, what have we learned so far?

Speaker 82 Just quickly on the tip line, I cannot stress enough, we've gotten some great stories out of these tips. Like, this is not just sort of like, oh, we want to engage your viewers.

Speaker 82 You guys are giving us great stuff. We genuinely appreciate it.
And it's contributed to a lot of these stories. So, yeah, today was

Speaker 82 probably about as devastating a day for our healthcare bureaucracies as anyone can remember in recent history, for sure. It had been previewed last Thursday.

Speaker 82 They were going to cut roughly 10,000 positions from HHS. That's the Department of Health and Human Services that oversees the FDA, the NIH, the CDC, other agencies.
And today was the day.

Speaker 82 And I had scores of people coming, showing up at work, getting an email saying, We're sorry, you're being put on administrative leave and you no longer have access to the building. And that's that.

Speaker 82 And it was really sort of indiscriminate in a way. I mean, well, I guess not indiscriminate, but it was just a lot of people had trouble figuring out like what the actual upshot was.

Speaker 82 It wasn't just administrative leaders, like that was clearly part of it.

Speaker 82 But there were top, top scientific officials who were just like, oh, like, for instance, the acting director of the National Human Genome Research Institute. He, we got an email from a tipster.

Speaker 82 Thanks again.

Speaker 82 Unexpectedly placed on administratively. He had a 20-year career as a researcher and and a leader at the NIH.
He was just gone. And Cohen tracks a lot of this other stuff.

Speaker 82 I mean, it's like LIHEAP, Head Start, food inspectors. You know, they were all just cut.

Speaker 10 CMS, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Speaker 9 Yeah.

Speaker 82 And it's hard to put your head around just like how big an impact this actually will have.

Speaker 82 But he did quote Wendy Armstrong when we read this, Director of Infectious Disease at the University of Colorado, Euro Neck of the Woods.

Speaker 82 We've had a lot of devastating days, but this is really unfathomable, Armstrong said. It's astounding.

Speaker 82 It will affect patients with all kinds of different kinds of infections, and Americans will suffer and people will die. And that's a horrible thing to see coming.

Speaker 82 It's bad. And I will just add that, you know, part of the subtext of here, or maybe it's not even the subtext, is that RFK is just like trying to reinvent basically how we do health in this country.

Speaker 82 And he's installed people who have deep skepticism of the health bureaucracies. And they have a lot of political support.
I will say that.

Speaker 82 I had a lot of people on my feed being like, Thank God, go for it, cut more. But I think it's objectively, you can say it's a head-in-the-sand approach to how we do this stuff.

Speaker 82 Jonathan interviewed Kevin Griffiths, who is an old spokesperson for the CDC.

Speaker 82 He was actually there for part of the time that RFK had been installed at HHS.

Speaker 82 And he told Jonathan

Speaker 82 that RFK, as long as he was there, never attended a briefing on measles, even though there's a measles outbreak that has been happening.

Speaker 82 That subject matter experts at the SCDC had briefed RFK one time by the time he left, but it wasn't on measles. Avian Foo, same thing.

Speaker 82 And we're just in a place where the heads of these agencies have distrust in science and don't seem particularly concerned all that much about the real problems that they are facing in the current moment.

Speaker 104 Yeah, I'll get into the political element of this in a second, but like the real substantive health and effect, particularly on the research side, to me, is the thing that I just keep coming back to.

Speaker 3 And there are a lot of terrible stories, but like,

Speaker 76 as we get these stories in the tip line and I'm reading them, like the ones that jump out to me are always like,

Speaker 96 we're in the middle of a 20-year study on this, on whatever it is, you know, diabetes or a specific type of cancer or whatever.

Speaker 104 And that is stuff that is not easily remediated by like some rich guy, you know, know coming in and doing it or the private sector obviously coming in and doing it right like that's not like some of this other stuff which is maybe patchable you know it's like this is we're effed you know and like maybe europe starts to do more and but like all of that takes a lot of time and there's real suffering oh no no yeah no no you're absolutely right i mean look NH budgets, what, $30 billion?

Speaker 82 We're not going to get rid of all of it, but let's say we do cut five,

Speaker 82 seven billion. There's not some dude waiting around being like, you know what, I want to fund that random study on, you know, some chromosomal issue or something.
It just doesn't happen.

Speaker 113 Particularly rare diseases or things that like, we don't, you know.

Speaker 82 Yeah. And people are like, well, can't the private sector step in? And the answer is no.
I mean, in theory, they could, but their motivation is profit. They're not going to fund long shot.

Speaker 3 What if it's a thing that only 12 people get a year?

Speaker 7 You know what I mean? Like there are all these rare.

Speaker 82 Well, so even if it works out for them, they're not in the business of funding long shot, you know, go-to-the-moon type initiatives.

Speaker 82 They want to fund something that can get them profit in five, ten, twenty-year horizons. And so, then the real only funding mechanisms are foreign countries.

Speaker 82 And the honestly, to God, of the people I talked to, the only foreign country who's got the money to come in and get this done is China.

Speaker 82 China, and across the board, every single, I mean, it's on trade, it's on science, it's on you know, foreign aid. Every single vacuum that we're creating, that Trump's creating, China will fill.

Speaker 82 And it is the theme of the first two and a half months so far.

Speaker 104 Well, CNN has a story about how China has launched some large-scale military drills from multiple directions around Taiwan this evening.

Speaker 87 So, you know, great.

Speaker 106 So in addition to that, handing over a lot, every all of the soft power, maybe the hard power might be coming for us as well.

Speaker 22 Do you see any direct political thing? I mean, the CDC, not to just be rank politics here, but like the CDC, like there is a lot of these jobs are in Georgia.

Speaker 117 There's been a big Senate race there.

Speaker 7 I don't know.

Speaker 79 I mean, you know, we hear from people, there are places in a lot of places in the country, the Virginia governors race.

Speaker 127 I don't know.

Speaker 82 I mean, yes, and no.

Speaker 82 Yeah, the CDC cuts will impact Georgia and that. And Osoff was talking about that, for instance.

Speaker 82 And, you know, the research stuff that Booker mentioned, I mean, I think that does have resonance with some folks. Bill Cassidy,

Speaker 82 who facilitated a lot of this, thank you, Bill. And Bernie Sanders, whom helmed the committee that oversees the stuff, have asked RFK to come and explain what the hell is going on.

Speaker 82 But like, do you really expect Bill Cassidy to be like, you know what? I got this one wrong. And no, this shit's like

Speaker 82 whatever cliche you want to have. The horses are the barn on this stuff.
And

Speaker 82 I don't know how much this is a political issue per se.

Speaker 82 Like, I think when you do start capping grants to state universities for biomedical research, that becomes a jobs issue in your, in local states. And Katie Bird obviously had that happen.

Speaker 82 She objected.

Speaker 82 So we'll see. But I think it's one of those things that, like, maybe a little bit too esoteric for people to vote on.

Speaker 35 No, maybe.

Speaker 106 And I guess maybe there's a macroeconomic thing.

Speaker 118 We're going to get deeper on economic stuff on tomorrow and Thursday's pod because it will be on the heels of Liberation Day.

Speaker 101 I want to talk about Liberation Day, Dax, but I do think that just this combination of this kind of quasi-government austerity, it's kind of like haphazard austerity policies of the government with the tariffs,

Speaker 99 it does contribute broadly to the economy.

Speaker 76 So, anyway, Liberation Day, dudes, going forward with it.

Speaker 15 We've had a running kind of debate between me and you.

Speaker 24 You know, you've thought it was all smoke and mirrors.

Speaker 82 How long do you think these are going to last? What do you think?

Speaker 122 I think he's bought in, man.

Speaker 87 Like, these guys, these guys, and I, well, it's hard to pull back from the rationale they have.

Speaker 80 They think that this is central to their vision for the golden age of America.

Speaker 94 And I don't know, man.

Speaker 29 Your former colleagues at Politico reporting that a lot of people around the president and vice president don't really get it or understand, but like they want to go big.

Speaker 28 And so, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 29 I think they're going big. What do you think?

Speaker 43 Are you going big or are they faking it tomorrow?

Speaker 82 I know. They'll go big tomorrow.
And then in the next week, we'll have.

Speaker 76 It is funny. They're doing it.

Speaker 84 They moved it so that the announcement is at 4 o'clock.

Speaker 46 Right.

Speaker 122 Because they don't want, what they didn't want was the image of Trump talking and then the ticker going down, down, down.

Speaker 109 You know, they don't want that meme.

Speaker 82 This is not their first rodeo. No, my prediction is they'll put them in place and then sometime next week we'll have some sort of

Speaker 82 carve-outs that have been negotiated strategically by Donald Trump. And then we'll be like, oh, yeah, you really scored a victory, Mr.
President.

Speaker 123 And that's that.

Speaker 16 You've already seen a little bit of this some pre-negotiations.

Speaker 28 BB was out tonight.

Speaker 118 What did Bibi say?

Speaker 104 He said, today we canceled all of the customs duties levied on products from the U.S., Israel's largest trading partner.

Speaker 80 So it's kind of like a no, don't reciprocal me, Donald.

Speaker 76 I assume we'll get a couple of those, others from his other friends, like the autocrats throughout the world.

Speaker 38 I mean, we'll see Ardewan or whoever.

Speaker 82 Yeah, what would the guy in El Salvador do? Yeah, Bukele.

Speaker 104 Well, I mean, his economy is based on Bitcoin.

Speaker 103 So do they tear it?

Speaker 82 Bitcoin in prison.

Speaker 122 Do we tear it with Bitcoin?

Speaker 80 So anyway, we'll see more of that.

Speaker 29 The funniest pre-amble to this for me is have you seen the,

Speaker 3 there's already already some knives out for Howard Luttnick.

Speaker 82 Yeah, I saw that.

Speaker 92 That was great.

Speaker 82 Like, if this fails, it's on Howard. Oh, yeah.
Cause like, yeah. It's Luttnick.

Speaker 124 It's the commerce sector there.

Speaker 87 It's a comms problem.

Speaker 92 It's like,

Speaker 82 if it fails, it's Trump.

Speaker 22 It is funny, though, because he is like this little chihuahua of a man.

Speaker 76 And you can kind of see him as like,

Speaker 94 to me, I imagine him, like, I imagine him and Trump.

Speaker 39 Everything is high school, really.

Speaker 102 I imagine him and Trump back at boarding school.

Speaker 98 Trump was whatever the baseball player.

Speaker 19 Right.

Speaker 113 And Luttnick was like the mill house who kept running around trying to please him.

Speaker 29 Like, yeah, Donald, yeah, Donald, whatever you want, Donald.

Speaker 76 And there is like a little bit of that energy from him.

Speaker 120 And I could see how that maybe grades on the colleagues.

Speaker 84 But I don't think, I don't think Luttnick was the master manipulator behind the terror, the Liberation Day.

Speaker 82 I got to be honest, Lutnik cracks me up, honestly, because he's out there and he's like, he's convinced himself that the best thing that he can possibly do is just be like the most ubiquitous salesperson possible.

Speaker 82 But he keeps saying things that are like really bad, such as, oh, I don't know if anyone should squeal if they lose their social security for a week. Like, come on, dude.

Speaker 82 So, you know, the fact that he's done all this stuff and

Speaker 82 is,

Speaker 82 you know, out there all the time for Trump, and then still is going to have to fall in the axe when this stuff hits the fan. I think it's poetic in a way.

Speaker 87 Yeah, that'll be six round.

Speaker 112 Well, I think we should have a little gamble between Waltz and him.

Speaker 109 They seem like the most likely

Speaker 35 first people to be fired via bleat.

Speaker 122 And I guess I'll take Waltz.

Speaker 39 I think Waltz kind of lasts less long than Lutnick for me, but I don't know.

Speaker 108 It's a tough call.

Speaker 82 And Waltz, there's still, there's like a drip-drip here, but the Terrace can, I mean, Terrace, if they go south really fast, when they go south.

Speaker 92 When they go south,

Speaker 82 it's going to get bad. And then, like, you know, I like Scott Besant.
I think he's my dark horse for potential

Speaker 82 see ya.

Speaker 110 Yeah, we can't have,

Speaker 107 you know, it's easy.

Speaker 105 You got to make the gay, the fall man, not gay Voldemort.

Speaker 125 Not gay.

Speaker 44 Not Jay Besson.

Speaker 2 We the people, in order to form a more perfect union, these words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 6 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 10 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 15 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 24 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 32 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 37 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 41 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 44 Learn more at MS.Now.

Speaker 47 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 52 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 60 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved, so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 69 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 73 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 119 If people are as obsessed as I am with, well, the stock market continues to go down worst quarter since 2022 and worst months since 2022, Newsmax's stock skyrocketed.

Speaker 97 Me and JBL did a whole 20-minute breakdown on this on YouTube.

Speaker 25 People should just go check this out.

Speaker 82 What was your conclusion?

Speaker 74 My conclusion is basically there are a couple of options.

Speaker 78 One is that

Speaker 127 there is a

Speaker 97 troll.

Speaker 88 There's like a meeting, it's a Wall Street bets type situation, and there is like a meme stock troll thing.

Speaker 95 It's being driven up by people on various whatever Discords in pre-point crypto worlds.

Speaker 82 but why would they do that because it's funny

Speaker 85 here's the problem here's the why they would do that this is the whole of that theory is that unlike some of those other stocks meme stocks like chris ruddy who's the owner of newsmax owns like 80 of the stock so like all they're doing is making him rich right so that's the whole net theory which takes me to you know corruption like either there's some kind of backroom deal i mean ruddy is a mar-a-lago member is in there with trump a lot and there's a lot of similarities to the coin maybe there's some other rich people, some foreigners that are pumping it.

Speaker 17 Like, it's just a rug pull.

Speaker 82 But usually, like, you have some sort of like, you know, like big show around it, and you try to get a lot of interest in it, but they really didn't do that.

Speaker 125 I know.

Speaker 120 But that leads you to the theory that.

Speaker 83 you know, there's some whales out there that are driving it up.

Speaker 83 And then it's like there was a bet that like retail would get behind it because people would be like, oh, this is a hot bet right now to like bet on MAGA media.

Speaker 87 But it's crazy.

Speaker 124 It's like, it's easy.

Speaker 22 It's a declining industry. It's cable news.
It's a declining industry.

Speaker 82 It's a declining industry and every macro trend suggests that MAGA media is struggling right now.

Speaker 87 Yeah, and they're worth more than 50% more than News Corp right now, like in total market value.

Speaker 122 Anyway, go watch the whole video.

Speaker 78 The thing is, it's fucking insane, though.

Speaker 28 It's an insane story.

Speaker 7 And, you know,

Speaker 95 there'll probably be a Michael Lewis book about it at some point.

Speaker 82 I bought some at the IPO, by the way. Did you?

Speaker 108 How much are you up?

Speaker 29 You know what?

Speaker 75 Can I tell you something?

Speaker 104 I'll have one more admission on this. During COVID, I started messing around with meme stocks and all that during COVID, you know, to kind of fit in with the bros.

Speaker 80 And I did this.

Speaker 78 I made a bet.

Speaker 95 Some of my colleagues will kill me if they know what which company it is, so I won't say.

Speaker 36 I made a very small bet on a conservative media company, like went after Trump won the last time.

Speaker 44 Because I was like, for the same reason, like, oh, I guess they'll do well.

Speaker 39 And it tanked.

Speaker 117 I don't know.

Speaker 95 I lost like 400 bucks on it or something.

Speaker 101 So it

Speaker 122 wasn't a successful bet for me.

Speaker 44 So the theory of the case was right.

Speaker 38 I was just early, as is always the case on my failed investment opportunities. No Annapurna funds over here.

Speaker 85 Two more things.

Speaker 99 I know you're not exactly the Corey Booker of this podcast.

Speaker 44 You're not wanting to do a full 24 hours.

Speaker 94 I can go.

Speaker 78 Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House,

Speaker 78 lost an internal battle with Anna Paulina Luna.

Speaker 104 It's kind of like a...

Speaker 80 you know, kind of new hotness in the house.

Speaker 34 I think it's taken away from the like Lauren Bobert MTG.

Speaker 117 She's kind of the rising

Speaker 117 star. Female star.

Speaker 43 Yeah, female star.

Speaker 88 The short of this, the details are kind of a little less interesting, but the short of this is that she wanted proxy voting for new mothers.

Speaker 107 Yeah. And Johnson and them said basically no.

Speaker 112 So they had the rule on, you know, the rules that govern the house going for a vote today.

Speaker 38 And Aluna convinced seven other Republicans, I guess, in the Democrats to vote.

Speaker 19 Yeah,

Speaker 19 nine others.

Speaker 114 Eight others. She's nine.

Speaker 80 Okay.

Speaker 76 To go along with this and to vote the rule down.

Speaker 82 And so, and then Mike Johnson just was like, okay, fine, and took his ball and went home and now i guess the house is now closed for the week and it's like these are i wanted to bring this up a because it's kind of funny that mike johnson got got owned by annapolina luna but it's also just like i think it bears mentioning i just haven't focused on this enough on the pod the house has done nothing oh like we're on april 1st and they've like literally done nothing i mean they they continued the last year's budget they got the government funding bill yeah that was it i think the details on this actually are not unimportant i kept asking joe perticone like why the do they care about proxy voting for new mothers like in what world is this a hill that they need to die on like what does mike johnson actually care about he's like oh this is you know they they think it's unconstitutional i was like mike johnson proxy voted like what do we also like unconstitutional look around like we're like deporting people who are innocent to El Salvador and not given due process rights.

Speaker 82 Like, this is like the constitutional line that Mike Johnson's going to freak about. And it just didn't, I just couldn't wrap my head around why this was such a big deal.

Speaker 82 And I still don't really get it.

Speaker 14 So then why did they just shut down the house for the week then?

Speaker 85 I don't like it.

Speaker 82 Well, then he was like, well, because we have to now consider this discharge petition and it's going to, you know, take up all the business and we can't really consider anything else.

Speaker 82 And it's like, dude, it's just take the L.

Speaker 82 Just do the proxy voting. It's unfathomable to me.

Speaker 118 The point for me is like, they have one job, kind of, which is to pass a reconciliation bill.

Speaker 6 Right.

Speaker 35 Like to pass, to extend Trump's tax cuts and to codify whatever cuts from Doge they want and to like do all like they're going to do all that in one bill.

Speaker 78 And to me, it feels like they've done nothing.

Speaker 36 Like they've made very

Speaker 91 little progress.

Speaker 85 Yeah.

Speaker 6 control all of Washington.

Speaker 82 They've handed everything over to Trump.

Speaker 93 So this also goes to the constitution thing.

Speaker 15 It's like your constitutional line is

Speaker 89 proxy voting, but meanwhile, it's like you've completely ceded all of the power of the legislative branch to the executive.

Speaker 44 You're like, you can just king truck and do whatever you

Speaker 48 want.

Speaker 122 Like, the whole thing is bizarre.

Speaker 82 It's stupid.

Speaker 9 Clowns. Okay.

Speaker 3 We, the people, in order to form a more perfect union, these words are more than just the opening of the Constitution.

Speaker 6 They're a reminder of who this country belongs to and what we can be at our best.

Speaker 10 They're also the cornerstone of MS Now.

Speaker 15 Whether it's breaking news, exclusive reporting, election coverage, or in-depth analysis, MS Now keeps the people at the heart of everything they do.

Speaker 24 Home to the Rachel Maddow Show, Morning Joe, the briefing with Jen Saki, and more voices you know and trust, MS Now is your source for news, opinion, and the world.

Speaker 32 Their name is new, but you'll find the same commitment to justice, progress, and the truth you've relied on for decades.

Speaker 37 They'll continue to cover the day's news, ask the tough questions, and explain how it impacts you.

Speaker 41 Same mission, new name, MS Now.

Speaker 44 Learn more at MS.now.

Speaker 47 Are your AI agents helping users or just creating more work?

Speaker 52 If you can't compare your users' workflows before and after adding AI, how do you know it's even paying off?

Speaker 60 Pendo Agent Analytics is the first tool to connect agent prompts and conversations to downstream outcomes like time saved so you know what's working and what to fix.

Speaker 69 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 73 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 96 I want to do a shout-out to me for Representative Glenn Ivey from Maryland.

Speaker 9 Oh, not to you. No.

Speaker 91 Sam.

Speaker 48 I always praise you, Sam.

Speaker 87 I just praise you.

Speaker 17 Glenn Ivey went on Fox on his douchebag Will Kane's TV show.

Speaker 95 And he was talking about the story with Kilmar Brego Garcia that

Speaker 108 I've been obsessing over.

Speaker 114 For starters, good on him for going on to Fox.

Speaker 117 I've heard some pretty dispiriting things, actually, since I've began my rants over the past two days or three days about why Joe Rogan is out there more on this than Democrats.

Speaker 87 And I thought that it was like, I was just assuming it was just caution.

Speaker 127 And I was like, well, if I maybe people such as me and Chris Hayes and Favs, others who've been out there and you, like who've been doing this, like maybe they'll light a fire into people's ass and be like, oh, wait, we can do this.

Speaker 114 And to me, it actually seems more like there's

Speaker 29 they're being actively discouraged from speaking out, is my understanding.

Speaker 98 So that's that's pretty dispiriting.

Speaker 94 But not Glenn Ivey.

Speaker 28 Glenn Ivey was on Fox, and I just want to play a little bit of him with Will King.

Speaker 129 I prosecuted the crimes of illegal immigrants for eight years. I locked up more people in my day than you ever did.
So don't lecture me about not being passionate about.

Speaker 129 I've done it. You haven't.
Back up.

Speaker 67 Today, Congressman, you write the laws.

Speaker 67 Congressman, today

Speaker 46 you don't prosecute the laws.

Speaker 92 You write the laws.

Speaker 129 In fact, I did a joint prosecution with Rod Rosenstein of MS-13 when he was the U.S. attorney and I was the state's attorney.
I've done this before. You have not.

Speaker 129 Don't sit there and lecture me about being passionate about people who break the law.

Speaker 128 I've done it. You have not.

Speaker 122 A plus, Glenn Ivey.

Speaker 82 What was the distinction Will Kane's trying to draw there? You write the laws.

Speaker 44 I think Will Kane is trying to say, you don't get any credit, sir.

Speaker 130 Sir, you don't give me credit.

Speaker 82 You were severed between prosecutor and law.

Speaker 2 Yeah, your past life prosecuting these criminals. You don't give me credit for that if you're not out there right now as a congressman supporting what these deportations Trump is doing, I guess.

Speaker 80 But he goes on there.

Speaker 76 It's a longer clip, but he goes on there and they can, there's like a boring section of the clip.

Speaker 36 But again,

Speaker 84 there's some legal ease elements to this where Ivy is out there and he's basically saying, look, this is not how this works.

Speaker 7 Like, this person was, you know, under, you know, whatever, temporary do not deport order.

Speaker 76 And like, you know, he has his wife and kid are citizens.

Speaker 109 Like, if you wanted to have a deportation there's a process to doing this is that you go to a judge and they're 30 days like you know and will kane's like you know no like what this is no we need new we need real tough guys who are just going to randomly deport people you know based on whims and sadism and like i don't know i mean is he convincing anybody on fox i don't know but i think it's better it's much better for people on fox to hear yeah to a hear the counter argument Because, you know, again, if Joe Rogan can be compelled, maybe some Fox viewers can.

Speaker 36 So to hear the argument and B, to demonstrate that like, oh, you know, the Democrats aren't all just

Speaker 26 the worst clips that you play on the five.

Speaker 130 You know, like there are Democrats that like actually made their career prosecuting gang members and can speak about that.

Speaker 84 And, you know, I think that that is a valuable use of time.

Speaker 105 So good on you, Glenn Ivy. You got anything else on that?

Speaker 82 Absolutely. And I, I just like,

Speaker 82 yes.

Speaker 82 I've been on this, I've been beating this drum for a while now, but like, you got to go on these places. Like, what is the alternative? They're just going to paint you as a caricature.

Speaker 82 And like, you know, every clip is going to be, you know,

Speaker 82 you transpose with like, you know, the border being overrun or whatever. And secondly, and we've talked a bit about this, but, you know,

Speaker 82 it may not be a winning issue for Democrats, but it sure as hell is not going to be a winning issue if you don't push the issue. You can't assume that like.

Speaker 82 it's just going to turn or that it's just going to go away. And this was the Kamala Harris fallacy, too.
It's like, well, we don't want to talk about immigration because it's not friendly turf.

Speaker 82 Well, it may be an 80-20 Trump issue, but it's much better if it were a 60-40 Trump issue. You got to do these things.

Speaker 86 You got to lean into it.

Speaker 125 Right.

Speaker 82 And I think I actually, well, I'll shut up after this, but I do think maybe I'm crazy that we're kind of hitting a tipping point here. I mean, Rogan, the National Review people,

Speaker 82 you know, some conservative immigration activists who are all like, you know what, this, we probably do need due process here. What's going on? Those are cultural markers.

Speaker 82 And I think we actually would see more if Democrats went on these platforms and said, you know what, I've prosecuted MS-13 members.

Speaker 82 I know the dangers of gangs, but we can't fuck this up and ruin it all by deporting innocent people. It's a pretty easy argument in my book.

Speaker 9 Same.

Speaker 41 Here's what I think on this.

Speaker 110 The thing that I'm worried about, which I get, because we're seeing this from DHS right now, is putting out the fact that this, that Abrigo Garcia was part of a human trafficking ring.

Speaker 22 I've said this about every person I've brought up.

Speaker 85 I don't know.

Speaker 15 I don't know because they didn't get due process.

Speaker 22 So I don't know.

Speaker 116 Maybe the makeup artist was like smuggling in fentanyl in their, in their little, you know, Mac, you know, powder cases.

Speaker 80 I don't fucking know.

Speaker 22 I don't think so. It doesn't seem like it to me, but we could find out.

Speaker 1 So I think that there is a good reason.

Speaker 76 for Democrats who are politicians who have a different role than me as a fucking blabber to like maybe not like lean all the way in on every on a specific case because you don't want to be the guy that's like, oh, turns out you were defending a human trafficker.

Speaker 41 We can fill that void, the commentariat and the advocacy groups and outside groups, and you can speak to the broad element of people are not for disappearing people off the street without a due process.

Speaker 22 That is what Rogan said.

Speaker 11 That is what the polls actually say.

Speaker 19 And I think that folks can go out and do that.

Speaker 76 And so good on Glenn Ivy for doing it.

Speaker 82 I agree. Is it that hard to say, I don't necessarily support this person.
I just want to make sure we're deporting the right people.

Speaker 94 Yeah.

Speaker 112 And that we're not wrongly sending people to a fucking concentration camp in El Salvador.

Speaker 18 All right.

Speaker 76 I told you the one last thing, but we have a bonus piece of audio.

Speaker 94 I want to leave people on a happy note.

Speaker 74 I want to leave people on a happy note.

Speaker 84 How often have I left people on a happy note?

Speaker 93 Katie, have I left people on a happy note one time since November?

Speaker 99 I can't even, I can't recall.

Speaker 87 Maybe I have. Sometimes I.

Speaker 48 I'm sure you have.

Speaker 85 Have I?

Speaker 82 Probably some.

Speaker 94 I've left people certainly on a laughter, a note of laughter,

Speaker 31 but pure joy, I don't think so.

Speaker 82 Do you still have that in your life?

Speaker 44 I do. I'm a father.

Speaker 44 My child doesn't have white swords.

Speaker 84 So, you know, I get to give her a good night hug tonight.

Speaker 6 I've got pure joy.

Speaker 14 I'm going to go to Coachella in a couple weeks.

Speaker 87 That'll give me joy.

Speaker 30 I've got joy in my life. You know who else has joy in your life?

Speaker 122 Susan Crawford.

Speaker 110 Let's listen to her.

Speaker 131 But I've got to tell you, as a little girl growing up in Chippewa Falls, I never could have imagined that I'd be taking on the richest man in the world.

Speaker 131 For justice in Wisconsin.

Speaker 82 And we won.

Speaker 130 And there it is.

Speaker 16 She beat Elon.

Speaker 122 That's good.

Speaker 82 She affected Western civilization itself.

Speaker 79 Western civilization is saved.

Speaker 88 Thanks to Susan Crawford.

Speaker 75 Good haircut, too.

Speaker 5 Everything, the whole thing.

Speaker 22 It's a good vibe.

Speaker 124 It's a whole good pass.

Speaker 15 There's so many Wisconsin haircuts in this video.

Speaker 93 You people, you got to check it out on YouTube.

Speaker 80 The audio listeners, these are happy cheese heads.

Speaker 30 Sam Stein, thanks for staying up late with me, brother.

Speaker 82 Thank you for having me. What a pleasure.

Speaker 100 What a pleasure. What a pleasure.

Speaker 30 Everybody else, happy Liberation Day.

Speaker 34 We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullard Podcast.

Speaker 99 We'll see you all then. Peace.

Speaker 99 We're a winner.

Speaker 99 And never let anybody say or you can't make it.

Speaker 91 Cause a feeble mind is in your way.

Speaker 91 No more tears to a cry.

Speaker 91 And we have finally dried our eyes. And we're moving on up.

Speaker 91 Moving on up.

Speaker 91 Lord, have mercy, we're moving on up.

Speaker 91 Moving on up.

Speaker 91 We're living proof and all's alert.

Speaker 91 That we're two from the good black bird. And we're a winner.

Speaker 91 And everybody knows the truth. We just keep on pushing

Speaker 91 like your leaders tell you to.

Speaker 91 At last, that blessed day has come.

Speaker 91 And I don't care where you come from.

Speaker 91 We're all moving on up.

Speaker 91 Moving on up.

Speaker 91 Lord, have merciful moving on up.

Speaker 91 Moving on up.

Speaker 91 Hey, hey, you are moving on right.

Speaker 91 Moving on up.

Speaker 91 Lord, have mercy, we're moving on.

Speaker 91 Moving on.

Speaker 91 I don't mind leaving here

Speaker 91 to show the world we have no fear. Cause we're a winner,

Speaker 91 and everybody knows the truth. But just keep on pushing

Speaker 91 like your leaders tell you to.

Speaker 91 At last, that blessed day has come.

Speaker 91 And I don't care where you come from.

Speaker 91 We're just gonna move on up.

Speaker 91 moving on up.

Speaker 91 Long and never moving on.

Speaker 91 Moving on up, who just keep on pushing

Speaker 91 everybody

Speaker 94 podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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Speaker 69 Start improving agent performance at pendo.io/slash podcast.

Speaker 73 That's pendo.io/slash podcast.

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