S2 Ep1012: Sam Stein: Elon Is Toxic

Drew and Sue in Eminem's Minis.

And baking the surprise birthday cake for Lou.

And Sue forgetting that her oven doesn't really work.

And Drew remembering that they don't have flour.

And Lou getting home early from work, which he never does.

And Drew and Sue using the rest of the tubes of Eminem's Minis as party poppers instead.

I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

Eminem's, it's more fun together.

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Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

It is Bulwark After Dark tonight.

I am here with the Bulwarks Managing Editor, Sam Stein.

We are taping right after

the very professional call of the Wisconsin Supreme Court race made by the decision desk HQ and Dave Wasserman and others.

And I got an early flight tomorrow and Sam's kid has a tick in his his or her head.

His.

Thank you for the revelation.

It was not enjoyable pulling that thing out.

Hope I got it all.

So we're doing a late night taping tonight.

So buckle up, everybody.

We're punchy.

All right, listener.

You might think that, you know, the Wisconsin Supreme Court race, is that really worth it?

Is that really a late night taping thing?

Is that something I should care about?

And let me tell you, if you have any doubts, I want to play for you.

One of the world's richest men discussing this Supreme Court race just the other day.

They think it's, well, it's just, you know, some kind of judicial thing that's not that important.

But actually,

what's happening on Tuesday is a vote for

which party controls the U.S.

House of Representatives.

That is why it is so significant.

And whichever party controls the House,

you know,

to a significant degree controls the country, which then steers the course of Western civilization.

So it's like,

I feel feel like this is one of those things that may not seem that it's going to affect the entire destiny of humanity, but I think it will.

No pressure.

Yeah.

Susan Crawford, the Democrat aligned judge, you are affecting all of humanity, the destiny of humanity.

Sam, what do you make of it?

Good.

Good.

Did you hear the guy scream at him?

No pressure.

No pressure.

Do you feel like Western civilization was on the line in Waukesha County tonight?

I mean, I personally did not, but

maybe I'm happy it is, right?

We get a little bit of, as Elon says, we get a little bit of a turn here.

I'm happy with that we're turning civilization in a new direction.

Are you not?

I'm happy.

I'm happy that Elon said, and it felt a little overwrought to me.

Just a little.

Just a touch.

Destiny, are all of our destiny settles on this Wisconsin Supreme Court race?

This race that Elon heard about maybe, you know, four weeks ago and decided you know what i'm gonna put 20 million in there yeah i think that there are a couple things that are really important about the race that that may be a little short of

you know the fate of western civilization but uh but i think are pretty important number one is elon musk cannot just go buy races right and i think that there are people particularly on the left particularly progressives i had some folks have come up to me that are like very worried about just elections going forward elon monkeying with it the control the twitter the bots the amount of money that he has.

If you can't buy a Wisconsin Supreme Court race, then it's going to be very much more challenging to buy bigger races.

It's not like you can't buy any race, but I think that it is.

Yeah, let me stop you there because

I hear you, but what happens in a race where there isn't such donor enthusiasm on the Democratic side, right?

Like the actual total amount of money was relatively matched in this race, but you know, there's hundreds of races, hundreds in the cycle.

Sure.

Could he steal a random mayor's race somewhere?

Sure.

To me, I think that Elon, Elon is not magic.

He does not have scary magical powers.

Like he is not able to manipulate the vote, the machines.

Here's what he is.

He's just a man.

If anything, he's talking, that's what I was going to say.

He backfired.

I think Elon's money,

I think probably, which we'll get to next, is the nature of the backlash against Trump and the nature of how how these special elections work and the nature of the coalitions.

Susan Crawford was probably going to be the favorite no matter what.

But I think Elon was a net negative on this, and even including the $20 million that he put in and the $2 million bribes that he gave to random twinks, college Republican twinks yesterday.

I think, even in spite of that, I think he was a net negative.

Oh, yeah.

And I'm a little bit surprised that they had him show up, honestly.

Like,

if I were the Republican Party in Wisconsin, you know, I would have said, thank you.

I'll take your check, but can you just, you know, maybe like not come to the state?

His numbers are terrible.

And frankly, I think a lot of these races are way more referendums on him and Doge than they are on Trump.

And so I feel pretty strongly that he was a net negative in a serious way tonight.

So I think that is important going to the midterms because Elon is not going to disappear.

You know, it's not as if I was on with John Halliman earlier and John said, I think rightly, I don't object to this observation, but he's saying that the Republicans in the House who are up in tough races, you know, in swing districts are hoping that like a rebuke of Elon will get them to chill out and go away.

That ain't happening.

Or maybe to get Trump to push him away, right?

Maybe Trump looks at

Jonathan Martin was talking about the, I don't think this happens because of the money, honestly.

But, you know, that was the, that was the premise of the, of this Jonathan Martin story, which is like, they want Trump to say, ooh, this is not good.

And, you know, maybe that's like the nice side benefit from this race.

And that Trump is like, you know what, we got to kick Elon to the curb.

I don't see it happening, but it doesn't mean that there aren't people who aren't hoping it happens.

Yeah.

I agree with that.

So Elon being toxic,

I think, is an important takeaway from the race.

Another important takeaway, as Elon mentioned in his speech, so there's one thing he got right, is I do think we'll see.

Like Wisconsin has a really terrible gerrymander.

Having a 4-3 democratic supreme court might make a difference in that it might make a difference as far as the house of representatives is concerned i don't i i frankly don't think the house of representatives will probably be that close in the next in the next midterm but um that's meaningful in the micro but if it were this would help yeah yeah exactly i think that's meaningful in the micro a turnout is pretty good it was not quite as good it doesn't seem yet i mean it's like we haven't obviously counted all the votes in wisconsin yet but it doesn't look like it's proto-sewitz kind of like which was the big post-Roe Supreme Court race there, but like, pretty good turnout from the Democrats there.

And then we'll get to Florida.

And so I think that is also encouraging.

And I think those are all, and it happened in obviously a state that's going to be very important in the future.

And I think this also affirms something that we've been talking a long time around here, which is like that these coalitions have totally flipped in the old Obama era situation where Democrats did better in midterms and in special elections and Republicans, or excuse me, where Republicans did better in midterms and special elections elections and democrats did better in general elections like that it's totally flipped and there's this hilarious kind of irony kind of it might not be funny for some people but the wisconsin also passed a voter id tonight right and i really don't think people have internalized i think it's a very small minority of people that internalize the fact the voter id

whether or not you think it's a good policy probably helps democrats now it used to help republicans and i think it probably helps democrats now it's much closer to a wash now yeah i mean i i think democrats are still wary of it because of the effect it might have on african-american voters, but you are right in that the Democrat coalition is way more heavily tilted now than it was, I don't know, eight years ago on educated and engaged voters who are much more likely to have ID.

And that is, you know, that's what we're seeing throughout these special elections.

And probably what we'll see in the midterms is that people who are engaged politically are going to vote Democratic and they're coming out.

The only hope that Republicans have is that they can nationalize all this stuff and bring out these Trump voters.

But that's really hard

on special elections or random Supreme Court races, as we've seen tonight.

All right.

There's some specials in Florida that Republicans won, but there's some also some maybe green shoots for Democrats.

And Florida won your favorite candidate, Gay Valamont.

She lost by 15 to Jimmy Petronas.

She ran against Matt Gates in that district, and she lost that by 32.

This is like the Florida panhandle.

This is a redneck, Riviera, Flora, Bama.

Yeah, this is a district Trump won by, I believe, 37 points.

It's pretty red.

And, you know, somebody named Gay.

If only she was named Gay Hussein, if only she was named Gay Hussein Voldemort,

then we would really be in business.

She's pretty close to being named Gay Voldemort, and she ran to the panhandle, and she only lost by 15.

Honestly, there should be some clause in the Florida Constitution where if your name is Gay Voldemort and you come that close, you get to co-serve.

You can't run with that name.

We respect you, Gay.

It's great.

I'm happy.

I respect Gay.

I respect the gays and I respect gay but it's just really hard and i think you should get 15 points a 50 point that's the long version of a fee the female gay gay lord is the male version if it's a male gay

i don't believe it's gayatris no i don't think so what are we doing it is a late night podcast gay i apologize i apologize gay i don't mean to do that scambia county pensacola 22 more dim uh the surrounding ones also about that this is why i was taught into gay voldemort no democrat apparently has won a a scambia county for president since 1960.

i i learned that on twitter tonight but gay won it gay flipped it gay lean which makes sense for for the plan handle that it'd be gay lene she lean's gay yeah um

lesbian lesbian voldemort okay over in florida six and uh and you know a similar demographic over in daytona beach mike waltz won that district by 33 in election 24.

randy fine who's a fucking piece of work He's a Republican.

He won by 14 over Josh Weil as a math teacher.

So neither of those races end up being that close.

15 point loss for Gay, 14 point loss for Josh Weil, but like that does not bode well and explains why at least Stefanik got pulled out.

There was some chatter last week that

Randy Fine was in trouble, but the chatter was mostly generated from Republicans hoping to two things.

One, set expectations and two, get as many national resources or attention on this race as possible.

Because again, it goes back to can you nationalize the race?

Can you get those Trump voters engaged?

And, you know, I think they succeeded in that.

But then you step back, you say, wait a second, that's like a 15 to 16 point swing.

And I will note, this is, I thought, you know, the data points are actually more interesting in the micro in that they were breaking that each county's in these districts.

And

the swing was universal.

I mean, it was uniform.

It wasn't like, oh, there was just larger turnout in the more educated counties and like, you know, less turnout.

No, every single county was moving in the Democratic direction about the same percentage points.

And to me, that I think is way more significant than anything else because it signifies that this is just an across-the-board frustration or, you know, anger towards Trump that we're seeing manifested.

That is why people like Elise Stefana cannot leave the house.

And I mean, in Wisconsin, obviously, you have more of a kind of a diverse demographic, you know, because you have like white working class areas, black areas, and Milwaukee college towns, you know, than you do in kind of these red districts in Florida.

Right.

And again, this stuff is still coming in right now, but as of now, it was like 23 of 25 districts.

Crawford did better, or counties rather, Crawford did better than Kamala, you know, so almost across the board.

And then it was totally across the board in Florida.

You know, the thing that jumps out to me as special elections, because of this nature of these coalitions we're talking about, where

the more complicated it is to vote, you know, and the harder it is to get people to turn out to vote, the better it's going to be for Democrats, at least in the short term.

So I think specials are even a little bit better than midterms will be for them, just based on coalitions.

Obviously, a bunch of stuff could happen between now if we're in a recession between and next November.

You know, obviously there are other elements at play here.

But I just look at this and it's like, okay, you know, and if they're going to run 19 points better in these districts,

you know, that brings in a lot of red areas into play.

And I do think that like, this is my number one message to Democrats to call me is I'm like, they should look at these, you know, R plus 10, 12, 13, 14 districts and try to get some surprise.

I think that there could be some surprise wins.

At least make Elon spend a few

max.

Get people running.

Civilization is dependent on all these things.

This is why we did the run for something episode.

It is less dire in these areas than I think the conventional wisdom is.

I think Democrats have some huge structural problems, particularly in the Senate and these red states, but in local elections up through Congress, congressional elections, i don't know right i mean the senate the senate's like a totally different conversation

here's what i think about this is one is that i i know that the run for something people have seen historic engagement so i think people are jazzed two is there's been this sort of talk and i know lauren egan's going to address this in her newsletter that comes out wednesday night about how well the democratic brand is so damaged and people hate democrats and like how the party is going to you know never resuscitate itself but that data point is bunk Like, I just think people need to get over that data point.

Like, we were there with the Republicans a while ago.

These things are cyclical.

And also, people, this is really just a referendum on Trump and Elon.

And then, three is that.

Thermostatic polarization, Sam.

Oh, yes, that's a more technical way to talk about it.

And three is that

you do need to challenge every race.

And the reason you do is because even if you don't win them all, you have to sort of create a bench for future races.

And

I'm reminded of how in 2009 and 2010, you were there.

I mean, like, Obama had 60 Senate seats.

Like, the House majority was massive.

All the state houses were Democratic.

It felt like, and then he just lost it all.

I was working in Iowa then.

So I was thinking of like Dave Loebsack.

It's like this random like super left professor at Iowa ends up beating Leach, who'd been there forever, who'd been a Republican, who'd been there forever.

You know, it's like you win surprising places.

Like that race didn't even have any ads in it.

And this guy wins.

No.

And yeah, And they will, and they'll be shocked at the races that they actually win.

And

you just run for it and you hope for the best.

And sometimes you catch Lending and Bottle.

Yeah.

One last thing that's kind of been meaning to mention this because it's relevant.

As a local perspective for Louisiana, people wouldn't have noticed this.

Civilization did not rest on these four amendments that we voted on here in Louisiana last week in the special election.

But the Republican governor, Jeff Landry, was pushing these kind of changes to the Constitution.

They're on taxation and legal issues.

And they're kind of arcane,

except for the tax element uh the rest of them were pretty arcane but like there was a big push from from democrats and activist groups here in louisiana to that was just like vote no on them all y'all and there was like a little ad campaign around it just vote no no to jeff landry no to what he wants f him basically was the campaign like there wasn't even a ton of education on like what the actual ballots were it was just like say no to us resist it and they got slaughtered like his ballot initiatives got slaughtered here which i kind of in louisiana well it's a catchy phrase it is a catchy phrase no to them all.

Y'all.

All y'all.

Yep.

Anyway, I think that there are obviously positive signs there, even here in deep red America.

Imagine what this podcast would have been like if

Crawford lost.

Well, it would have been kind of like the podcast is every other day.

So it's not that hard to imagine.

It would have been Tuesday.

Yeah, that wouldn't have been that hard to imagine.

It's a fair point, though.

You know, you shouldn't overinterpret, but I just like at this point, there's so many trends to this direction direction that it's like, okay.

I agree with that.

I agree that everyone's like, don't read into special elections, but no, I'm going to read it.

Yeah, we're going to read into it.

All right.

What else are we going to fucking do?

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We're going to talk about Corey Booker.

Let's talk about Corey.

Corey Booker,

boy, he hit the record for a filibuster, record-long filibuster.

I didn't think he could do it just kind of bladder-wise.

Like when like Corey did.

What's the longest you've gone without peeing?

Well,

you know, I've got that dog inside of me, Sam, so probably a while.

I don't know what that means.

Probably a while.

I just, that's why I kind of feel like I'm a little made of sterner stuff than Corey.

I was wrong.

Corey surprised me.

What was the final number?

You got 25 plus.

25 hours plus.

Record filibuster.

I have some thoughts on it, but let's play a couple clips.

Let's first

play a hymn talking about kind of the moral moment.

This is an American moral moment.

This is the question of where do we stand for health care?

Where do we stand for social security?

Where do we stand for VA benefits?

Where do we stand for our American neighbor when the call and commandment of every faith in our land is to love your neighbor?

What is the quality of our love, America?

Now is the time.

to get angry, but let that anger fuel you.

Now is your time to get scared for what's happening to your neighbors and let that fear bring about your courage.

Now is your time to stare at despair and say you will not have the last word because I'm going to stand up and at least I can give one person hope in this country.

Can I give one person hope in this country?

And so what do I want from my fellow Americans?

Do better than me.

Do better than we in this body.

That's a low bar.

We are flawed and failed people.

I see people showing up at our town halls yelling at us, Democrat and Republican, do more.

How are you letting this happen?

Well, I hate to tell you we're doing all that I can think of.

This is why I'm standing here to try to give voice to those people.

But what is more needed for now is less people sitting on the sidelines.

I think that was in like hour 22 or 23.

You can kind of hear his voice going, his mouth a little dry.

And so

just like being able to summon that kind of

spirit at that hour is pretty impressive.

And, you know, I think there's like a tendency to want to go into, from us in pundit world, like go into figure skating judging on this.

And for me, it's just like, man,

he's trying to get people going.

Will it work?

I don't know.

Like, will it land with people?

Will it land with just one person?

I don't know.

But I think that it is like at least being responsive to this thing that we've been talking about a lot, which is like there is a demand out there for people to say,

this, like, come on, like, we can do that, we can fight this.

Like, it is not, don't despair.

And he was at least being at minimum, and maybe more than this, he was being responsive to that demand.

Well, look, I think, and I'm going to try to articulate this in a way that makes sense.

Clearly, voters want Democrats.

Democratic voters want Democratic lawmakers to do more.

I will say also that it's clear to me that there's not really

much more that Democratic lawmakers can technically do that would stop what Trump and Musk are doing, right?

In order for them to make that point.

to voters that really the power to resist and oppose Musk and Trump rests in collective action action and public action.

Something like this had to happen.

Corey Booker or someone had to make a personal sacrifice, a historic personal sacrifice in this case, to say, look, I get it.

I'm doing this.

It's not going to do anything.

It's not going to stop a piece of legislation.

It's not going to cause Republicans.

Stall the day.

One less day.

One less day.

Yes.

And maybe, and look, maybe, you know, the next step, Chris Murphy should get up and take the baton and do one more day, right?

Like, you can make the case, but it's not going to ultimately lead to, you know, something not passing that could have passed otherwise.

Maybe, maybe Republican lawmakers move by it, but that's about it.

But in order for him to make the case to people that, look, you are where the power of resistance lies, he had to make a sacrifice along these lines.

And I watched not all of it.

I watched

a decent amount of it.

And I thought

he succeeded in that.

And I thought the last hour especially was a really remarkable,

considering how exhausted he must have felt a really remarkable weaving of history of the civil rights movement and and all that and his own life experiences into the current political moment that we are in and i have people who i have you know sources now who've federal workers who have been in contact with me for weeks you know total despair among these people especially today and we can we'll get into it i know uh because there's so many cuts today you know they they lost their jobs today and their livelihoods and they were just like, I'm sobbing watching this.

Like, he's channeling everything I feel right now watching this.

And that's all you really can ask for, right?

Like in politics is doing that, is channeling people's emotions and directing it into something constructive and good.

And I think you accomplished that.

I agree with that.

And you make a good point about like who is

the target here.

audience for this in a lot of ways really it is

people

that are anti-Trump, right?

I mean, they're Democratic partisans or maybe not, but they're anti-Trump and anti-what Musk is doing.

Right.

And they, they are looking for somebody to be a leader, to channel their energy, to demonstrate sacrifice, to encourage them to get off.

Like all the things that you said, like, right.

And I think a lot of times when people get into the analysis of this sort of stuff, it's like, well, will this win over the swing voter and walk a shot?

And it's like, no, it's not going to win over the fucking swing.

Obviously not.

But like, that isn't the only objective.

Like, that isn't one objective of politics.

It's one thing people need to do, but there are other elements of this.

You know, there's the legislating element, there's the leadership element, there's the motivation element.

And so, I agree with you.

I think you're successful in that regard.

I'm gonna put one other quote that just kind of gets into the core of what the substantive policy critique was here is offering.

I asked you, Are you better off than you were 72 days ago economically?

I asked that question.

Ask it to your friends: Are they better off economically?

Well, I don't see how they could be because prices are up, stock markets down, the risk of recession is climbing, consumer confidence is in the gutter,

401k plans are getting losing value.

Are you better off than you were 72 days ago under this president's leadership on the verge of his so-called liberation day that's going to drive prices up even more?

Again, this is another example of like something we've been talking about.

It's tough.

The strategists are all like pivot to kitchen table issues.

And it's like hard, right?

Because how do you get attention for that well like this is a way to get attention for it right and and i do think while i've been like you know banging for more kind of emotional reaction from the democrats on some of this on the democracy stuff and the deportations and all that you know this is a way to get into the economic issue and i think in a way that is pretty compelling right like that that that is that speaks to like the political opportunity for democrats which is what are people getting out of this i think that is a better framing than being like, our egg prices are up or, you know, trying to troll around that.

It's like, no, it's like, have you gotten anything out of this?

You also don't want to hook it to one thing, but yeah, I think that's right.

Like, what have you gotten out of this?

And in fact, what have you lost out of this?

Right.

There was that, and then there was this, the last anecdote he told.

Again, I thought the close was really remarkable.

But the last anecdote he told, which was his personal story, as weave through what's happening to NIH and science.

And he's talking about Alzheimer's research.

And he's like, what is more unobjectionable than funding Alzheimer's research?

Like, we all know it's a scourge.

We all have loved ones or relatives or friends who've been affected by this horrible, horrible disease.

We have a role.

We have a bipartisan role to solve this stuff.

And yet here we are cutting this research, retarding our progress on this stuff.

And why?

For what?

We can say that again.

Well, that was not in the negative sense, the pejorative way.

Way to wait, way to go.

Fuck you.

Anyways, what was I saying?

So, yeah.

And then he talks about being with his father, who was suffering from Parkinson's or something.

I don't, I want to be, I'm sorry if I'm being inaccurate here.

And having to walk him to a bathroom so that he could urinate and having to help him take down his pants and all that stuff.

And it was just like, oh my God, you know, you talked about kitchen table issues and that, it's not what we conventionally call kitchen table issue because it's not about, you know, the price of groceries and stuff.

But goddamn, you talk about that stuff at the kitchen table, right?

Like everyone talks about it at the kitchen table.

And look, you, you might be right about the intended audience, but there was another intended audience, I do believe.

And that was the Republican senators who are in the chamber or who are maybe just watching, who have worked on this stuff with him in the past and who might say, you know what?

Like, what are we doing?

What just say your question?

What are we doing here?

Like, come on.

Maybe that was the intended audience, but I think they should focus.

He should focus on a ghetto audience.

Okay.

Like, let's just, let's

get a little high on our own supply here.

The Republicans, the scales have fallen from Ron Johnson's eyes tonight, Sam.

I would say maybe not Ron John, but maybe Lisa Murkowski.

Maybe Mitch Murkowski.

Maybe, maybe Danny Valdemore was watching.

We don't know.

I've got one other,

just we have to do this because it's a political podcast.

He's thinking about running for president.

Yeah, of course.

I'm just sitting there.

I'm just leaving that there.

Aren't they all?

That's a real thing.

That's basically a prerequisite for somebody else.

Yeah, but they're all thinking about it.

Like, this is a real thing.

And I don't know.

I'm open to everybody.

Everybody get out there.

You're yawning already.

Sam, we got a lot of time left.

We got a lot of time left.

All right.

Pull it together.

Pull it together.

The people don't pay zero dollars for this podcast to have a yawning guest.

Did I just lose this guy?

All right.

So Corey's going going to run for president.

It was pretty good.

More is more.

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I've got one other out-a-boy to a Democrat that I want to close with.

So, this is a very unusual podcast today.

But first, we've got to do a little serious stuff.

As you mentioned earlier, a total bloodbath today at HHS.

Our new colleague, Jonathan Cohn, who's awesome, and everybody should sign up at thebork.com for his newsletter if they haven't yet,

has a new one out tonight.

RFK Jr.

Guts, America's Health Bureaucracy.

It's been a little hard for me to follow this because like a lot happened.

And I guess also before you tell us what we know, we've had amazing feedback from our listeners and viewers and readers who are in the government or friends who are.

We have a tip line, thebork.com slash tips.

Folks have been sending it in.

It's totally anonymous.

So if you or a friend were hit by these cuts, please tell us your story.

But anyway, what have we learned so far?

Just quickly on the tip line, I cannot stress enough, we've gotten some great stories out of these tips.

Like this is not just sort of like, oh, we want to engage with you guys are giving us great stuff we genuinely appreciate it and and it and it's contributed to a lot of these stories so yeah today was probably about as devastating a day for our healthcare bureaucracies as anyone can remember in recent history for sure it had been previewed last Thursday they were going to cut uh roughly 10,000 positions from HHS that's Department of Health and Human Services that oversees the FDA the NIH the CDC other agencies and today was the day and I had scores of people coming, showing up at work, getting an email saying, we're sorry, you're being put on administrative leave, and you no longer have access to the building.

And that's that.

And it was really sort of indiscriminate in a way.

I mean, well, I guess not indiscriminate, but it was just a lot of people had trouble figuring out like what the actual upshot was.

It wasn't just administrative leaders, like that was clearly part of it, but there were top, top scientific officials who were just like, oh, like, for instance, the acting director of the National Human Genome Research Institute.

He, we got an email from a tipster, thanks again.

Unexpectedly placed on administrative leave.

He had a 20-year career as a researcher and a leader at the NIH.

He was just gone.

And Cohn tracks a lot of this other stuff.

I mean, it's like LIHEAP, Head Start, food inspectors.

You know, they were all just cut.

CMS, Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.

Yeah.

And it's hard to put your head around just like how big an impact this actually will have.

But he did quote Wendy Armstrong and Marie, this director of infectious disease at the University of Colorado, your old neck of the woods.

We've had a lot of devastating days, but this is really unfathomable, Armstrong said.

It's astounding.

It will affect patients with all kinds of different kinds of infections, and Americans will suffer and people will die.

And that's a horrible thing to see coming.

It's bad.

And I will just add that, you know, part of the subtext of here, or maybe it's not even the subtext, is that RFK is just like trying to reinvent basically how we do health in this country.

And he's installed people who have deep skepticism of the health bureaucracies.

And they have a lot of political support.

I will say that.

I had a lot of people in my feed being like, thank God, go for it, cut more.

But I think it's objectively, you can say it's a head-in-the-sand approach to how we do this stuff.

Jonathan interviewed Kevin Griffiths, who is an old spokesperson for the CDC.

He was actually there for part of the time that RFK had been installed at HHS.

And he told Jonathan that

RFK, as long as he was there, never attended a briefing on measles, even though there's a measles outbreak that has been happening.

That subject matter experts at the CDC had briefed RFK one time by the time he left, but it wasn't on measles.

Avian Foo, same thing.

And we're just in a place where the heads of these agencies have distrust in science and don't seem particularly concerned all that much about the real problems that they are facing in the current moment.

Yeah, I'll get to the political element of this in a second, but like the real substantive health and effect, particularly on the research side, to me is the thing that I just keep coming back to.

I mean, there are a lot of terrible stories, but like,

as we get these stories in the tip line and I'm reading them, like the ones that jump out to me are always like,

we're in the middle of a 20-year study on this, on whatever it is, you know, diabetes or a specific type of cancer or whatever.

And that is stuff that is not easily remediated by like some rich guy, you know, coming in and doing it or the private sector obviously coming in and doing it, right?

Like, that's not like some of this other stuff, which is maybe patchable.

You know, it's like, this is, we're effed, you know, and like maybe Europe starts to do more.

But like, all of that takes a lot of time and there's real suffering.

Oh, no no yeah no no you're absolutely right i mean look in a budget's what 30 billion dollars we're not going to get rid of all of it but let's say we do cut five

seven billion there's not some dude waiting around being like you know what i want to fund that random study on you know some you know chromosomal issue or something that just doesn't happen anymore particularly rare diseases or things like we don't you know yeah and if and people are like well can't the private sector step in and the answer is no i mean in theory they could but their motivation is profit they're not going to fund long shot.

What if it's a thing that only 12 people get a year?

You know what I mean?

Like there are all these rare.

Well, so even if it works out for them, they're not in the business of funding long shot, you know, go-to-the-moon type initiatives.

They want to fund something that can get them profit in five, 10, 20-year horizons.

And so then the real only funding mechanisms are foreign countries.

And the honestly to God, the people I talked to, the only foreign country who's got the money to come in and get this done is China.

China.

And across the board, every single, I mean, it's on trade, it's on science, it's on, you know, foreign aid.

Every single vacuum that we're creating, that Trump's creating, China will fill.

And it is the theme of the first two and a half months so far.

Well, CNN has a story about how China has launched some large-scale military drills from multiple directions around Taiwan this evening.

So, you know, great.

So in addition to that, handing over a lot, every all of the soft power, maybe the hard power might be cutting for us as well do you see any direct political thing i mean the cdc not to just be rank politics here but like the cdc like there is a lot of these jobs are in georgia there's gonna be a big senate race there right i don't i mean you know we hear from people there are places a lot of places in the country the virginia governors race i don't know i mean yes and no

Yeah, the CDC cuts will impact Georgia and that.

And Osoff was talking about that, for instance.

And the research stuff that Booker mentioned, I mean, I think that does have resonance with some folks.

Bill Cassidy

who facilitated facilitated a lot of this, thank you, Bill, and Bernie Sanders, whom helmed the committee that oversees the stuff, have asked RFK to come and explain what the hell is going on.

But like, do you really expect Bill Cassidy to be like, you know what, I got this one wrong?

And no, this shit's like

whatever cliche you want to have.

The horses are the barn on this stuff.

And

I don't know how much this is a political issue per se.

Like, I think when you do start capping grants to state universities for biomedical research, that becomes a jobs issue in your local states.

And Katie Britt obviously had that happen.

She objected.

So we'll see.

But I think it's one of those things that, like, may be a little bit too esoteric for people to vote on.

No, maybe.

And I guess maybe there's a macroeconomic thing.

We're going to get deeper on economic stuff on

tomorrow and Thursday's pod because it will be on the heels of Liberation Day.

I want to talk about Liberation Day Dax, but I do think that just this combination of this kind of quasi-government austerity, it's kind of like haphazard austerity policies of the government with the tariffs,

it does contribute broadly to the economy.

So anyway, Liberation Day.

Dude's going forward with it.

We've had a running kind of debate between me and you.

You know, you've thought it was all smoke and mirrors.

How long do you think these are going to last?

What are you taking?

I think he's bought in, man.

Like, these guys, these guys, and I, well, it's hard to pull back from the rationale they have.

They think that this is central to their vision for the golden age of America.

And I don't know, man.

Your former colleagues at Politico reporting that a lot of people around the president, vice president don't really get it or understand, but like they, they want to go big.

And so, you know, I don't know.

I think they're going big.

What do you think?

Are you going big or are they faking it tomorrow?

I don't know.

They'll go big tomorrow.

And then in the next week, we'll have.

It is funny.

They're doing it.

They moved it so that the announcement is a four o'clock post on the side because they don't want, what they didn't want was the image of like Trump talking and then the ticker going down, down, down.

You know, they don't want that meme.

This is not their first rodeo.

No, my prediction is they'll put them in place.

And then sometime next week, we'll have some sort of...

carve-outs that have been negotiated strategically by Donald Trump.

And then we'll be like, oh, yeah, you really really scored a victory, Mr.

President.

And that's that.

You've already seen a little bit of this some pre-negotiations.

BB was out tonight.

What did Bibi say?

He said, Today we canceled all of the customs duties levied on products from the U.S., Israel's largest trading partner.

So it's kind of like a no, don't reciprocal me, Donald.

Spig it open.

I assume we'll get a couple of those, others from his other friends, like the autocrats throughout the world.

I mean, we'll see Erdogan or whoever.

Yeah, what would the guy in El Salvador do?

Yeah, Bukele.

Well, I mean, his economy is based on Bitcoin.

So So I don't, do we, do they tear up?

Bitcoin in prison.

Do we tear up with Bitcoin?

So anyway, we'll see more of that.

The funniest preamble to this for me is have you seen the,

there's already some knives out for Howard Luttnick.

Yeah, I saw that.

That was great.

Like, if this fails, it's on Howard.

Oh, yeah, because like, yeah.

It's Luttnick.

It's the commerce sector thing.

It's a comms problem.

But it's like,

if it fails, it's Trump.

It is funny, though, because he is like this little chihuahua of a man.

And you can kind of see him as like

to me I imagine him like I imagine him and Trump everything is high school really I imagine him and Trump back at boarding school Trump was whatever the baseball player right and Luttnick was like the mill house who kept running around trying to please him like yeah Donald yeah Donald, whatever you want Donald.

And there is like a little bit of that energy from him and I can see how that maybe grades on the colleagues.

But I don't think, I don't think Luttnick was the master manipulator behind the Liberation Day.

I got to be honest, Luttnick cracks me up, honestly, because he's out there and he's like, he's convinced himself that the best thing that he can possibly do is just be like the most ubiquitous salesperson possible.

But he keeps saying things that are like really bad, such as, oh, I don't know if anyone should squeal if they lose their social security for a week.

Like, come on, dude.

So, you know, the fact that he's done all this stuff

and is,

you know, out there all the time for Trump and then still is going to have to fall in the the axe when this stuff hits the fan.

I think it's poetic in a way.

Yeah, that'd be six round.

I think we should have a little gamble between Waltz and him.

They seem like the most likely

first people to be fired via bleat.

And I guess I'll take Waltz.

I think Waltz kind of lasts less long than Lutnick for me.

But I don't know, it's a tough call.

And Waltz, there's still, there's like a drip-drip here, but the Terrace can, I mean, Terrace, if they go south really fast, when they go south.

When they go south,

it's going to get bad.

And then, like, you know, I like Scott Besant.

I think he's my dark horse for potential

see ya.

Yeah.

We can't have, you know,

you got to make the gay, the fall man.

Not gay Voldemort.

Not gay.

How are you?

Jay Besson.

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If people are as obsessed as I am with, well, the stock market continues to go down worst quarter since 2022 and worst month since 2022, Newsmax's stock skyrocketed.

Me and JBL did a whole 20-minute breakdown on this on YouTube.

People should just go check this out.

What was your conclusion?

My conclusion is basically there are a couple of options.

One is that

there is a, that it's a troll, there's like a meme, it's a Wall Street Bets type situation, and there is like a meme stock troll thing.

It's being driven up by people on various whatever Discords in pre-pun crypto worlds.

But why would they do that?

Because it's funny.

Here's the problem.

Here's why they would do that.

This is the whole of that theory is that unlike some of those other stocks, meme stocks, like Chris Ruddy, who's the owner of Newsmax, owns like 80% of the stock.

So all they're doing is making him rich.

So that's the whole net theory, which takes me to

corruption.

Either there's some kind of backroom deal.

I mean, Ruddy is a Mar-a-Lago member, is in there with Trump a lot, and there's a lot of similarities to the coin.

Maybe there's some other rich people, some foreigners that are pumping it.

It's just a rug rug pull.

But usually, like, you have some sort of like, you know, like big show around it, and you try to get a lot of interest in it, but they really didn't do that.

I know.

But that leads you to the theory that.

you know, there's some whales out there that are driving it up.

And then there was a bet that like retail would get behind it because people would be like, oh, this is a hot bet right now to like bet on MAGA media.

But it's crazy.

It's like, it's easy.

It's a declining industry.

It's cable news.

It's in a declining industry.

It's a declining industry.

And every macro trend suggests that MAGA Media is struggling right now.

Yeah.

And they're worth more than 50% more than News Corp right now.

Like in total market value.

Anyway, go watch the whole video.

The thing is, it's fucking insane, though.

It's an insane story.

And, you know,

there'll probably be a Michael Lewis book about it at some point.

I bought some at the IPO by the day.

Did you?

How much are you up?

You know what?

Can I tell you something?

I'll have one more admission on this.

During COVID, I started messing around with meme stocks and all that during COVID, you know, to kind of fit in with the bros.

And I did this.

I made a bet.

Some of my colleagues will kill me if they know what which company it is, so I won't say.

I made a very small bet on a conservative media company, like went after Trump won the last time, because I was like, for the same reason, like, oh, I guess they'll do well.

And it tanked.

I don't know.

I lost like 400 bucks on it or something, you know, so it wasn't

a successful bet for me.

So the theory of the case was right.

I was just early, as is always the case on my failed investment opportunities.

No Annapurna funds over here.

Two more things.

I know you're not exactly the Corey Booker of this podcast.

You're not wanting to do a full 24 hours.

I can go.

Mike Johnson, the Speaker of the House,

lost an internal battle with Anna Paulina Luna.

It's kind of like a...

you know, kind of new hotness in the house.

I think it's taken away from the like Lauren Bobert MTG.

She's kind of the rising

star.

Female star.

Yeah, female star.

The short of this, the details are kind of a little less interesting, but the short of this is that she wanted proxy voting for new mothers.

And Johnson and them said basically no.

So they had the rule on the rules that govern the house going for a vote today.

And Aluna convinced seven other Republicans, I guess, in the Democrats.

Yeah,

nine others.

Eight others.

Yeah, eight.

Okay.

To go along with this and to vote the rule down.

And so, and then Mike Johnson just was like, okay, fine, and took his ball and went home.

And now I guess the house is now closed for the week.

And it's it's like, these are, I wanted to bring this up, A, because it's kind of funny that Mike Johnson got owned by Anna Paulina Luna, but it's also just like, I think it bears mentioning, I just haven't focused on this enough on the pod.

The house has done nothing.

Oh, like, we're on April 1st, and they've like literally done nothing.

I mean, they continued the last year's budget.

They got the government funding bill.

Yeah, that was it.

I think the details on this actually are not unimportant.

I kept asking Joe Perticon, like, why the fuck do they care about proxy voting for new mothers?

Like, in what world is this a hill that they need to die on?

Like, what does Mike Johnson actually care about?

He's like, oh, this is, you know, they think it's unconstitutional.

I was like, Mike Johnson proxy voted.

Like, what do we also like?

Unconstitutional.

Look around.

Like,

we're like deporting people who are innocent to El Salvador and not giving due process rights.

Like, this is like the constitutional line that Mike Johnson's going to freak about.

And it just didn't, I just couldn't wrap my head around why this was such a big deal.

And I still don't really get it.

So then why did they just shut down the house for the week then?

I don't like it.

Well, then he was like, well, because we have to now consider this discharge petition and it's going to, you know, take up all the business and we can't really consider anything else.

And it's like, dude, it's just take the L.

Just do the proxy voting.

It's unfathomable to me.

The point for me is like, they have one job, kind of, which is to pass a reconciliation bill.

Right.

Like to pass, to extend Trump's tax cuts and to codify whatever cuts from Doge they want and to like do all like they're going to do all that in one bill.

And to me, it feels like they've done nothing.

Like they've made very

little progress.

Yeah.

They control all of Washington.

They've handed everything over to Trump.

So this also goes to the constitution thing.

It's like your constitutional line is

proxy voting, but meanwhile, it's like you've completely ceded all of the power of the legislative branch to the executive.

You're like, you can just king Trump truck and do everything.

Like, the whole thing is bizarre.

Stupid clowns.

Okay.

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I want to do a shout-out to me.

For Representative Glenn Ivey.

No.

Maryland.

Oh.

Not to you.

No.

Sam.

I always praise you, Sam.

I just praise you.

Glenn Ivey went on Fox on his douchebag Will Keynes TV show.

And he was talking about the story with Kilmar Brego Garcia that

I've been obsessing over.

For starters, good on him for going on to Fox.

I've heard some pretty dispiriting things, actually, since I've began my rants over the past two days or three days about why Joe Rogan is out there more on this than Democrats.

And I thought that it was like, I was

assuming it was just caution.

And I was like, well, if I maybe people such as me and Chris Hayes and Favs, others who've been out there and you, like, who've been doing this, like, maybe they'll light a fire into people's ass and be like, oh, wait, we can do this.

And to me, it actually seems more like

they're being actively discouraged from speaking out, is my understanding.

So that's pretty dispiriting.

But not Glenn Ivey.

Glenn Ivey was on Fox, and I just want to play a little bit of him with Will King.

I prosecuted the crimes of illegal immigrants for eight years.

I locked up more people in my day than you ever did.

So don't lecture to me about not being passionate about today.

You write the laws.

No, no, no, no.

I've done it.

You haven't.

Back up.

Today, Congressman, you write the laws.

Congressman, today

you don't prosecute the laws.

You write the laws.

In fact, I did a joint prosecution with Rod Rosenstein of MS-13 when he was the U.S.

attorney and I was the state's attorney.

I've done this before.

You have not.

Don't sit there and lecture me about being passionate about people who write the law.

I've done it.

You have not.

A plus, Glenn Ivey.

What was the distinction Will Kane's trying to draw there?

You write the laws.

I think Will Kane is trying to say, you don't get any credit, sir.

Sir, you don't get any credit

for

you were severed between prosecutor and lawyer.

Yeah, your past life prosecuting these criminals, you don't get any credit for that.

If you're not out there right now as a congressman supporting what these deportations Trump is doing, I guess.

But he goes on there.

It's a longer clip, but he goes on there and they cut.

There's like a boring section of the clip.

But again,

there's some legal ease elements to this where Ivey is out there and he's basically saying, look, this is not how this works.

Like, this person was

under, you know, whatever, temporary do not deport order.

And, like, you know, he has his wife and kid are citizens.

Like, if you wanted to have a deportation, there's a process to doing this is that you go to a judge and they're 30 days.

And Wilkins, like, you know, no, like, go ahead.

This is no, we need new, we need real tough guys who are just going to randomly deport people, you know, based on whims and sadism.

And, like, I don't know.

I mean, is he convincing anybody on Fox?

I don't know, but I think it's better

for people on Fox to hear

to A, hear the counter argument.

Because, you know, again, if Joe Rogan can be compelled, maybe some Fox viewers can.

So to hear the argument and B, to demonstrate that, like, oh, you know, the Democrats aren't all just the people, the worst clips that you play on the five.

You know, like there are Democrats that like actually made their career prosecuting gang members and can speak about that.

And, you know, I think that that is a valuable use of time.

So good on you, Glenn Ivey.

You got anything else on that?

Absolutely.

And I just like,

yes,

I've been on this, I've been beating this drum for a while now, but like, you got to go on these places.

Like, what is the alternative?

They're just going to paint you as a caricature.

And like, you know, every clip is going to be, you know,

you transpose with like, you know, the border being overrun or whatever.

And secondly, and we've talked a bit about this, but, you know.

It may not be a winning issue for Democrats, but it sure as hell is not going to be a winning issue if you don't push the issue.

You can't assume that like it's just going to turn or that it's just going to go away.

And this was the Kamala Harris fallacy too.

It's like, well, we don't want to talk about immigration because it's not friendly turf.

Well, it may be an 80-20 Trump issue, but it's much better if it were a 60-40 Trump issue.

You got to do these things.

And so lean into it.

Right.

And I think I actually will shut up after this, but I do think maybe I'm crazy that we're kind of hitting a tipping point here.

I mean, Rogan, the National Review people, you know, some conservative immigration activists who are all like, you know what, this, we probably do need due process here.

What's going on?

Those are cultural markers.

And I think we actually would see more if Democrats went on these platforms and said, you know what, I've prosecuted MS-13 members.

I know the dangers of gangs, but we can't fuck this up and ruin it all by deporting innocent people.

It's a pretty easy argument in my book.

Same.

Here's what I think on this.

The thing that I'm worried about, which I get, because we're seeing this, from DHS right now, is putting out the fact that this, that Abrigo Garcia was part of a human trafficking ring.

I've said this about every person I've brought up.

I don't know.

I don't know because they didn't get due process.

So I don't know.

Maybe the makeup artist was like smuggling in fentanyl in their little Mac powder cases.

I don't fucking know.

I don't think so.

It doesn't seem like it to me, but we could find out.

So I think that there is a good reason for Democrats who are politicians who have a different role than me as a fucking blabber to like maybe not like lean all the way in on every on a specific case because you don't want to be the guy that's like, oh, turns out you were defending a human trafficker.

We can fill that void, the commentariat and the advocacy groups and outside groups, and you can speak to the broad element of people are not for disappearing people off the street without a due process.

That is what Rogan said.

That is what the polls actually say.

And I think that folks can go out and do that.

And so good on Glenn Ivy for doing it.

I agree.

Is it that hard to say?

I don't necessarily support this person.

I just want to make sure we're deporting the right people.

Yeah.

And that we're not wrongly sending people to a fucking concentration camp in El Salvador.

All right.

I told you a little less thing, but leave a bonus piece of audio.

I'm going to leave people on a happy note.

I'm going to leave people on a happy note.

How often have I left people on a happy note?

Katie, have I left people on a happy note one time since November?

I can't recall.

Maybe I have.

Sometimes I.

I'm sure you have.

Have I?

Probably some.

Maybe a shot in Floyd.

I've left people certainly on a laughter a note of laughter but but pure joy i don't think so do you still have that in your life

i do i have a i'm a father i don't know my my child doesn't have light sorceries

so you know i get to give her a good night hug tonight i've got pure joy i'm gonna go to coachella in a couple weeks that'll give me joy i've got joy in my life you know who else has joy in her life susan crawford let's listen to her But I forgot to tell you, as a little girl growing up in Chippewa Falls, I never could have imagined that I'd be taking on the richest man in the world

for justice in Wisconsin.

And we won.

And there it is.

She beat Elon.

That's good.

She affected Western civilization itself.

Western civilization is saved.

Thanks to Susan Crawford.

Good haircut, too.

Everything, the whole thing.

It's a good vibe.

It's a whole good pass.

There's so many Wisconsin haircuts in this video.

You people, you got to check it out on YouTube.

The audio listeners, these are happy cheese heads.

Sam Stein, thanks for staying up late with me, brother.

Thank you for having me.

What a pleasure.

What a pleasure.

What a pleasure.

Everybody else, happy Liberation Day.

We'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullard Podcast.

We'll see you all then.

Peace.

And we're moving on up.

Moving on up.

Lord, have mercy.

We're moving on up.

Move it on up.

We're living group and and all is alert.

That we're two from the good black third, and we're a winner.

And everybody knows the truth.

We just keep on pushing

like your leaders tell you to.

At last, that blessed day has come.

And I don't care where you come from.

We're all moving on up,

moving on up.

Love that mercy, we're moving on up.

Moving on up, who rolls

up.

Hey, hey, you are moving on up.

Moving on up.

Lord, have mercy, we're moving on.

Moving on,

I don't mind leaving here

to show the world we have no fear.

Cause we're a winner,

and everybody knows it too.

But just keep on pushing

like your leaders tell you to.

At last, that blessing is come.

And I don't care where you come from.

We're just gonna move on up,

moving on up.

Lord and I'm moving on.

Moving on up,

just keep on pushing

for the winner.

Long

way to be

everybody,

hey, we're gonna move on up.

The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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