Chris Murphy: Time to Break Norms(?)

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I think this is one of those moments where people say, it's the thought that counts.

Eminem's, it's more fun together.

Thank you.

Hello, and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast.

I'm your host, Tim Miller.

Delighted to welcome Senator from Connecticut.

It is Democrat Chris Murphy.

How you doing, man?

I'm great, man.

Good to see you.

Thanks for having me back.

Good to see you.

I haven't seen you since Easter, maybe.

You know, New Orleans Easter is a little different.

Bumped into you.

It's a little different than

Hartford, Connecticut.

Than Wasp Easter.

Yeah, okay.

Well, we'll see how it's going.

I want to talk to you about the state of play broadly before we get into Epstein and all this stuff and kind of the Democratic response to this administration.

Back in November of last year, you were talking to my colleague Sam Stein, and this is what you said.

He said, I'm crossing my fingers that we'll be in some normal world in which I can find some narrow areas of agreement with Trump, but I'm spending most of my time thinking and preparing for dystopia.

And you shouted out a few thoughts about what that dystopia might look like, including arrest warrants for opponents and things of that nature.

I'm wondering how you feel now in July as compared to your dystopian expectations about the state of the country.

We are living in a democratic dystopia.

It's worse than I think I could have imagined.

And I was probably one of the most alarmist voices, even before he got sworn in.

I think what makes this moment so urgent for me is that none of this is accidental.

This is clearly a plan to try to undermine our democracy so seriously that we don't have a free and fair election in 2026.

This is not a world in which he's going to cancel elections next fall or three years from now.

What he's doing is following this tried and true playbook from Hungary, from Serbia, from Turkey, whereby you just slowly, methodically crush dissent, crush the avenues of support that flow to your political opposition, such that when you have elections, you know, people feel like they have a choice, but it's a fake choice.

And really, there's no way for the opposition to gather enough oxygen in order to win.

It's a really potent strategy because there is

no coup.

There is no moment where the parliament building burns down.

There's no day where democracy exists and then the following day it doesn't.

You just stop being able to win elections.

And that's sort of where I think we could be headed for if all of us don't recognize that we've got to engage in some, you know, pretty exceptional, maybe ahistoric tactics in order to wake up the parks of the country that right now are still sleeping because they think that this is a normal political environment.

That's interesting you went there.

And there are like a million places you can go, right?

The way that he's bullying universities and bullying, in fact, bullying Coca-Cola.

We're learning this morning, Coke's changing their product thanks to the president, which is a small government conservatism at its finest, the immigration regime.

So to go straight to the elections, I don't know, because to me, I feel like I'm as alarmist as people get.

And that's one area where I'm a little bit more...

sanguine, I guess.

I don't know.

I feel like the next year's elections will probably be pretty good for the Democrats.

The way that our elections are run are so diffuse, it's kind of hard

to nationalize them.

What specific things are you worried about the most in that area?

Yeah, listen, I certainly am not

giving up on the fact that I think we still absolutely have a path to have elections that matter.

But if we exist in a space where

the major sources of financial support for Democrats decide to sit on the sidelines because President Trump is micromanaging the economy and he is making people with money and resources pay a price if they step into the political arena.

If there are

more Stephen Colberts, some of the most significant voices that explain the danger of Donald Trump to the public are silenced.

If violence continues to creep into our politics so that a lot of our activists decide by next fall and next summer to just stay home because it's just a little bit too rough out there.

If Act Blue disappears next summer when it's too late for us to stand up another way to funnel donations into Democratic candidates, if redistricting gets pulled off in a way where we just have a much narrower path to a majority, if red states do that, but Democratic states decide to stick to norms and wait for four years to draw districts again, we could be in a world where Donald Trump's approval ratings are 39%

and we don't win the House and we don't win the Senate.

And Republicans smell blood in the water because they got away with the contraction of Democratic space enough to be able to withstand what should have been a bloodbath for them in the midterms.

And they just crank the dial even firmer.

Now, that's not inevitable.

We have the ability to make sure that many of those things don't happen, but it takes collective action out there in the American public.

And they're looking for us,

the most significant and vocal and visible Democratic leaders to show some fight.

There are two things in there that I want to pick out.

I think that money in politics is a little less important than people think these days.

In 2025, I just think that the nature of how our elections are run,

the value of the TV ad compared to what it used to be isn't the same.

All that said, it's not that there's no value to money in politics.

And you said something that's kind of interesting.

And you're out there more than me trying to raise money, talking to donors, talking to big Democratic interest groups.

Are people being intimidated into not participating, into not donating at this point?

Do you think that that is happening?

That there are going to be people that are worried about retribution and so they're not supporting Democrats, although they might have otherwise?

Oh, I absolutely think that's happening.

And I'm not necessarily saying that there are sort of active threats of retribution against specific Democratic donors.

I think they are watching the way that Trump.

targets his political enemies and they would rather just for this cycle stand down and stay out of the fray so it's the sort of threats of of retribution that's causing, you know, some, not all, Democratic donors to step back and just sit this one out.

I just think that's true.

I think that's happening.

It's interesting you said that because it calls to mind Obama like had some really tough talk for you know Democratic elites basically recently, which is like basically, you know, I don't know the exact quote in front of me, but toughen up, like pull your shit together.

Like, it's time to get into the fight.

You guys aren't the ones that are, that are really a threat here.

It's, it's more vulnerable groups.

Do you think that came from like this notion that he is also kind of seeing and hearing that?

That

a lot of these individuals and groups are not stepping up?

Yeah, I think so.

And

when you listen to some of these individuals who have thus far held back and not invested, they're obviously not often going to offer their fear of retribution from Trump as the primary reason.

They will say, well, the Democratic Party doesn't have his act together.

I don't see a strategy.

I don't support the DNC.

The left wing of the Democratic Party is too wild and out of control.

Mondami, Mondami, Mondami, right?

So they come up with all sorts of reasons to sit out.

But if you really scratch the surface, a lot of it is that they, you know, have real big equities in this economy.

And when you have a president who's sort of willing to pick and dictate winners and losers, and you feel like you have a lot to lose,

that's a good enough reason to stay out and just come up with other reasons to articulate.

People are so pathetic.

So hard to process this, Senator.

Yeah, and listen, to the extent that people sort of believe what you may believe, that, yeah, this is really dangerous, but there's not actually a danger to the 2026 elections coming off, that makes it pretty easy to just decide to check out because you sort of feel like even without you, the momentum will still head in the direction of a correction.

But if everybody makes that decision, right, well, I can just stay out.

I just have seen this play before.

Republicans are going to have their comeuppance in the midterms.

If everybody hangs back, then that momentum, that momentum doesn't get created by itself.

It's a good caution.

And that might have, I think that was a key reason why Hillary actually lost in 2016, but we're not going to go relive the 2016 president.

Just like, okay, one more thing that you said is on the redistricting.

Because we're already seeing this.

There are two things.

There was, my colleague Lauren Egan was talking to some of the California state legislators who are like, we're better than this.

We care about democracy.

You know, I'm not going to be for the Newsom plan if they try to, you know, push through a redistricting California and match Texas.

You know, Wisconsin, you know, that the Democrats wanted to redistrict, but there's now a liberal majority on the Supreme Court, but they're saying, well, you know, we're not going to, we're going to wait till the normal term.

How worried are you about that kind of sense of goody two-shoes, Democrats

not fighting, you know, the some really dramatic changes potentially in Texas and that being decisive?

More broadly, Tim, I am concerned about this world in which the regime operates outside of the box and the opposition stays inside of the box, right?

We respect these norms because we believe in the norms and we think it's the right thing to sort of stay true to them.

But history tells us that's how democracies die.

Democracies die when the opposition doesn't realize that the rules have changed and does not adapt, refuses to adapt.

And so this is a perfect test case.

They are going to violate a basic norm.

You wait 10 years to redraw the districts.

We are going to say that we're better than that, and we will potentially lose the House in 2026.

You're seeing that happen inside the Senate on the appropriations process.

They've changed the rules.

They now expect us to sit at the table and pass bipartisan budgets, and then they stab us in the back and pass these rescissions bills, which just cancel out all the Democratic spending.

And then guess what?

We go right back into the room with them to write the next bipartisan budget bill bill because that's the norm that we're supposed to write bipartisan budget bills, knowing that they're going to do the exact same thing six months from now.

They're just going to cancel all of our projects, all the things that matter to democratic constituencies and poor families and middle-class families.

But the norm of bipartisan appropriations is so important that we stick to it.

I just think if that's the world in which we live, and if we decide to continue to be polite and norm-observant, that's how the democracy fades away.

Okay, let me be the norms defender for a second.

Do you worry about the other side where the democracy fades away because, you know, the opposition decides they don't actually care about the rules either.

And so these rules were fake from the first place.

And then it just becomes, you know, kind of a zero-sum fight of people who don't actually care about liberal democracy anymore.

Well, but we do believe in the norms.

And so I think we can be nimble enough to say, at this moment, we need to adjust to their tactics so that we can get back to a world in which we treat each other fairly.

You know, yes, we should probably, you know, all do redistricting at the same time, but the way that we protect that norm is by being nimble enough and bold enough to say, right now, we need to suspend our fealty to norms in order to protect them in the long run.

It's interesting that you're saying all this.

I had a little note down here that I was like, in the first few months of the administration, I was hearing a lot, you know, behind the scenes from Democratic starters and from regular people.

Democrats are wusses.

Nobody gets it.

Nobody's fighting hard enough.

They don't understand except Chris Murphy.

He does get it.

I'm hearing a little less of that lately, though.

Do you think that's because, like, are your colleagues looking to this next budget fight?

Are your colleagues changing tactics?

Are they evolving?

Or are all of us just getting complacent?

I don't know.

How do you assess the state of play?

No, I think that's the question, right?

I mean, if people just accepted the idea that there's not going to be this fight that they had hoped to see and they're channeling their

energies into other avenues, I think that's probably part of what's happening.

But yes, my hope is that Democrats decide to fight for something this fall.

We are once again at a moment where we need a bipartisan budget in order to keep the government open and operating.

We should fight for something that is important to this country, whether that be

trying to stop the size and gravity of these healthcare cuts that are happening or perhaps just requiring the Trump administration to stop behaving so illegally, require them to to spend the money that is appropriated in these bills, and show that this matters enough that we're

willing to engage in some risk-tolerant behavior to get it done.

Republicans are always willing to shut down the government over something that they care about.

We should, too.

I agree with that.

So you think that's it, the healthcare cuts?

I mean, it helps if the thing you're fighting over is something tangible that people get.

I think that's sometimes the problem with this, where it's like, well, we're going to fight over just the principle that there shouldn't be rescissions.

And, you know what I mean?

It's like people are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

You know, like, is there something tangible to fight about in the budget?

Yeah, a colleague of mine said to me late last night on the phone, you know, maybe you don't fight totalitarianism by talking about totalitarianism all the time, right?

Maybe you fight totalitarianism by talking about the real world consequences of

fascism.

And one of the real world consequences is right now is that millions of people are about to lose their health care in order to pad the pockets of the super wealthy.

That's worth fighting over in this budget.

Listen, they did their reconciliation thing.

They stripped health care from 17 million people, and the rules allowed them to do that with 50 votes.

Now they have to pass a bipartisan budget.

The rules say they've got to do that with Democratic votes.

And so it's not

unfair play for Democrats to say, you know what, if you want our votes this fall, then you have to blunt the rough edges of what you just did.

We want to make sure that this doesn't result in hundreds of hospital closures.

We want folks with with Obamacare to not see massive premium increases.

That's a fight we would win, and it is connected to the threat to democracy because it's a consequence of what happens when the people aren't in charge and just a handful of elites are in charge.

These really terrible decisions get made, like the erasure of healthcare for 17 million Americans.

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Speaking of kind of having some fights with your colleagues, you were getting into it with Katie Britt on the Senate floor the other day.

Would you like to share what you guys were fighting about?

It's really funny.

I just before I got on with you, I saw that she just did a media interview in which she, I saw the headline that she explains what the fight was about.

So

I should really listen to what she says before I tell you what the fight was.

No, listen, this was happening.

This was a conversation she and I were having right after the Republicans passed the rescissions bill.

She and I write the Department of Homeland Security budget together.

She's the chairman.

I'm the top-ranking Democrat.

And I was saying to her, how on earth are we going to write a bill to fund the Department of Homeland Security when the president is engaged every single day in illegal activity.

He is ignoring the funds that we have appropriated to protect people.

He is not observing the asylum laws of this nation.

And you guys have telegraphed us that even if I sit down and write a bipartisan bill with you and get something in there that's really important to my state or the people that I care about, you'll just use the rescissions tactic to cancel my spending afterwards.

Like, you know, why would I trade baseball cards with my friend if he tells me I'm going to break into your house tomorrow night and steal my cards back?

So that was the nature of the argument that I was making.

She can speak for herself as to the argument that she was making with me.

Do you feel like you made any ground?

Well, I mean, I do think Republicans understand the mess that they have created.

I don't know that they're willing to solve it, but it is true that you can't really come to a bipartisan agreement on a budget if you're staring your partner in the eye and telling them that you're going to use this dirty trick, rescissions, in order to cancel out the deal within, you know, within months.

Yeah, I guess I just mean part of the reason why people liked it, and I think why people respond liked it.

We didn't even know what y'all were saying, but responded to it, was like a lot of us are pissed.

And we hear a lot from Democrats, like, oh, you know, behind the scenes, like, my Republicans understand that some of the stuff they've really gone overboard on, but they can't really say anything because of their voters.

And like, it's sort of like, aren't we past, like, we're in year nine of this.

Aren't we past this?

I mean, you know, I understand that you want to have comity with your colleagues, but

I don't know, isn't there a moment for like getting in their grill and being like, you guys have massed agents of the government snatching people off the street and you're putting them into deportation camps?

Like,

what are you doing?

And you want me to do a bipartisan bill with you about whatever, a bridge, bridge fix?

This is crazy.

Listen, I think there was nobody here who sort of did more bipartisan work over the last four years than I did.

The gun bill, the immigration bill, the electoral account reform act.

So I've been willing to be in the room with these guys, but not right now, because I think right now they have all decided that they are sort of up for the destruction of our democracy.

And, you know, right now, this is a moment for fights, for making them uncomfortable, not for providing them kind of a veneer of bipartisan agreement and legitimacy over a regime that is wildly illegal, unconstitutional, and stealing from the American people on a daily basis.

I'm going to ask you about a couple of those fights that are a little bit harder.

Like the healthcare fight at some level, I mean, it's very serious and very important.

It's also easy, like it falls on partisan lines.

American people are upset with them over that.

If you look at the polls, right?

So it's a safe place to argue.

Here are a couple other things in their decisions, Bill.

And you're talking with Katie Britt, who's the Homeland Security chair.

Should there be a fight picked over the way that they are, you know, handling domestic detention of

migrants, of in some cases, citizens, green card holders?

And there's the American, the veteran that was held for three days.

You know, some Democrats are afraid to fight on on the immigration thing, but to me, it's like, why would we work with

you on a budget that is being used to house like

Everglades prison where people are being held there, even though they haven't committed any crimes?

Yeah, and it's even worse than that.

I mean, these prison camps that they are creating are also just a means to enrich their donors.

You know, people are getting absolutely filthy rich off of the construction of these camps in Texas and in Florida and other parts of the country.

It is fundamentally corrupt, not just in terms of how they are treating human beings as if they are subhuman, as if they are animals, but also in the way in which they are using taxpayer dollars to just pad the pockets of their wealthy donors.

Yes, I think we can run.

in a way that I don't think we thought was going to be possible six months ago against Trump on immigration.

He has crossed the Rubicon.

The way in which he is dehumanizing these families who have come to the United States to seek a better life, the way in which he is so deliberately not focused on criminals, that he is going after folks who are just gardening and staffing our farms,

I think

has flipped the script for us.

This country, there are mean people, there are spiteful people in this country, but most people still believe in the dignity of human life and the way in which he is treating these immigrants as if they are animals, as if every single one of them is a threat to the United States, I think has really sort of turned the conversation in a way that allows us to win a whole bunch of swing votes.

Now, only if people agree that we're going to fix the problem the right way, right?

I mean, they're only going to support us if we actually are serious about border security, if we're going to fundamentally reform the asylum law so that only the right people get in, if we are willing to say, you know what, there is a limit to how many people we can take through the southern border on a weekly or monthly basis.

If we have a credible plan for how we're going to be better in border security, the way in which he has analyzed the immigrant community provides us a real political opening.

And this was a Human Rights Watch report from, I think, yesterday or Sunday.

Migrants at a Miami immigration jail were shackled with their hands tied behind their backs and made to kneel to eat food from styrofoam plates like dogs.

The prisons are so overcrowded.

The detainees are not getting access to food,

cleanliness.

There's conversations about how it kind of smells like shit in these detention centers.

A lot of these people didn't even commit any crimes.

Is there any hope that there can be any oversight put over the treatment at these facilities domestically?

Well, listen, of all of the things you could bring to a negotiation over a budget this fall, one of them could easily be that you improve the conditions at these facilities, that you have an actual vetting process to make sure that the individuals there are either who you say they are, people

who have committed crimes, or at the very least aren't American citizens.

As you heard when Democrats went through Alligator Alcatraz, there were people shouting at them from the cells that they were American citizens, that they were there without any legal justification.

So that could certainly be.

Here's what the other side will say about that fight, though.

If you have that fight, then the Republicans will be like, look at the Democrats.

They only care about the gangsters and they only care about the Guatemalans that are, you know, who came here illegally and didn't come the right way.

And they care about the people that the rapists that we have in these prisons.

They care about them more than they care about you.

So, right.

So I'm saying an option is to make that one of the things you fight for in the budget.

But what we also know is that the American public is sort of turning against the president on this, The way in which they are treating immigrants is just so distasteful.

But by and large, the only way that those stories are getting out right now is through the press.

The party, the Democratic Party, the left, is so conditioned to believing that this is a losing issue that we really haven't been running any kind of substantial public relations campaign to shame them for the way that they are treating immigrants.

So we can heighten the political problem for them by simply being louder about the unacceptability of these conditions.

While saying that, listen, yes, we do believe that there's a universe of people who shouldn't be here in the United States.

If you've committed a crime, if you are an actual threat to the safety of a community, you should be turned around and deported.

But that's not what they're doing.

The people that are subject to these conditions, by and large, have no criminal history and are no threat of violence to these communities.

What about the masks?

Should the ICE agents be allowed to wear masks?

No, no, absolutely not.

There's legislation right now that we've introduced.

And I think people largely get this, right?

People want their police officers and their community to identify themselves.

You don't want the judges who are adjudicating your cases to be secrets.

What the mask becomes is just a cover for illegality and for brutality, because if nobody can identify the law enforcement officer that's beating the hell out of an immigrant, then everybody can get away with it.

And I think this is increasingly important as we staff up ICE.

Let's just be honest.

There is an element of folks who are going to be drawn to these jobs that see it as a bonus that they can get away with masked vigilantism.

And as you hire into ICE so quickly, the standard for who you hire is going to go down and down and down.

The Border Patrol can't hire more than a thousand people a year because we just can't find more than a thousand people a year who actually satisfy the criteria.

If ICE decides to hire 10,000 people this year, man, there are going to be some pretty unsavory people who get hired and the masks allow them to sort of get away with a level of depravity that none of us should accept.

Also it feels pretty risky in a heavily armed country.

You know, a lot of these states, you got people with concealed carry and you got unidentified masked men jumping out of a a van and grabbing people.

I mean, I just, I think that's going to lead to some pretty concerning situations, even for that.

I mean, like, honestly, for the safety of the ICE officials.

I'm not, and again, not because I want, please, like, do not misunderstand me.

I want everyone to treat, you know, federal agents with respect.

I'm just saying, if masked people come out of a van and start grabbing people in a country where there are a lot of folks with concealed weapons, that's going to lead to violence at some point.

One of my colleagues was speculating that the reason that these

very high-profile raids are happening in a place like California, not happening, at least as visibly in places like Arizona, is because of the worry that in a community with folks

who have concealed weapons, it's going to lead to a shootout.

And that shouldn't be, ever be the reason why you aren't enforcing the law that you're worried you're going to get shot at.

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One last maybe unpopular fight, but I'm wondering about when you come up to the next budget bill and these rescissions.

And it's just horrific that this party, these guys who ostensibly are Christians, are just cutting the bill that feeds the poorest people in the world.

We've cut the funding for UNICEF in the last bill, you know, huge amounts of cuts to USAID, obviously.

Again, this is a tough one because it's like, do you want to pick this fight with them and have them be able to say, oh, well, they care more about people in Africa than Americans, you know?

Or do you pick it because it's the right thing to do?

And I don't know.

Maybe you can,

you did an interview recently with Ross Douthat, who who was really on his high horse about how the republicans are the real god the real god fearing party maybe maybe the god fearing party should should hear about what they're doing to the most vulnerable people in the world what do you think yeah i mean listen i don't I think you're making a mistake as a political figure when you're sort of involved in way too much gamesmanship.

Authenticity is the coin of the realm in this business right now.

And so if you care, as I do, about using the power of America in order to try to relieve the kind of death and suffering that happens in super poor places across the world.

And also to, you know, enjoy a bit of advantage to American reputation by helping to save those lives, then just say it.

I think we are building a moral case, right?

We are showing the country that we care much more deeply about humanity and human life than Republicans do.

And we express that by caring and talking about the treatment of immigrants.

We express that by talking about the decision to, you know, pass along a brand new tax cut for billionaires at the cost of millions of people dying overseas.

And so, yeah, we can like, you know, really finely sift through the polls and find the one thing that connects with the largest group of people.

Or we could just like talk about what we care about.

Do you get your sense that any of your colleagues actually care about the death that we have wrought upon the poorest children in Africa?

Have any of them mentioned that?

I don't worry.

Something I could work with you on?

Hey, Chris, maybe I could work with you on the fact that we should not let three-year-olds in Africa die because they can't eat while food goes to rot in a warehouse in Dubai.

Anyone mentioned that to you?

Well, yes, they do mention it, and then they vote to cut the money because what they really care about is their job.

I guess what I don't, I was sitting on the floor that night as they were passing, you know,

$4 billion of cuts to UNICEF and, you know, programs that keep poor malnourished kids alive overseas.

And, you know, they were just so cavalier about it.

They were just sort of watching their watches to, you know, see when they could, you know, get out of town to, you know, head back to their vacation house.

And,

you know, it just struck me, like, why is this job so good?

Like, why do people care so much about being a United States senator that they would abandon their principles and just sign up to be an employee for Donald Trump?

Because, no, there were a bunch of senators who know that it's the wrong thing, that know that it's not necessary to balance the federal budget to kick kids overseas off of malnutrition assistance.

But right now, they're just employees of Donald Trump, and they are so worried about losing their job.

They're so worried about a life that doesn't involve being a United States senator that they're willing to check their morals at the door.

So I don't know.

It's a famous biblical story, actually, how you just kind of do that.

You go, you know, you care so deeply, you know, that you go to, that you let people die and suffer, you know, because you want to hold your job

alongside the other elites.

Wasn't that one of those stories?

I don't think I didn't, I don't actually think that's, that's, that's what's in there.

We'll have to ask Ross about that.

But it's like, you know, so are we going to live in a world in which we, you know, believe that they're sincere and we just sort of hold out hope that eventually we'll get Republicans to cross the aisle and work with us on, you know, making sure that more people in America have health care or making sure that more people overseas don't die of starvation or do we you know confront them and just fight the fuckers

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Here's another thing to fight them on the Jeffrey Epstein case.

Do you think that they're ⁇ it seems like they're covering up information that they have about Donald Trump's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein.

I think just that simple sentence feels true at this point.

Well, they're covering up something.

They're either covering up information that they know is true related to Trump's connection to Epstein, or they're covering up the fact that there was never any secret dossier and they told a lie for years and years.

If you believe what Dick Durbin wrote in that letter, though, if you believe what your colleague Durbin wrote in that letter, they had FBI officials going through these documents, then there has to be something in those documents.

I mean, 20 years of Jeffrey Epstein pedophilia.

Like, there's nothing, they don't have anything.

The DOJ doesn't have anything.

I find that hard to believe.

Right.

And you also have voluminous video evidence of the deep connection and friendship between these two individuals.

So yes, the much more likely story here is that they've got really damaging or embarrassing information either about Trump or Trump and some of his close associates or this file in the way that they claimed does not exist.

And it kind of unmasks the fact that many of their conspiracy theories have very little there.

It's a bad, bad story for them either way.

And I don't think it's going away.

Yeah.

So if the Democrats do take back control of Congress either body next year, you think that there should be investigations into this, investigation into the cover-up?

Should that be a priority for oversight or whatever?

Yeah,

we'll be able to find out

what's going on.

Absolutely.

This is an important story to tell.

Like subpoenaing Cash Patel, subpoena, you know, right?

Like that's, that should be a worthwhile endeavor, you would think, or is that a distraction?

Well, I think, you know, that might be a worthwhile endeavor for many, many reasons,

not just to get to the bottom of the Epstein files.

So do you think Epstein killed himself?

I have no idea.

I have no idea.

That's a legitimate answer, though, but having no idea is a legitimate answer.

It is, I don't know.

I've been kind of left to wonder.

I don't know.

Maybe I'm a pod bro conspiracy theorist now, but I've been spending a lot of time reading Epstein's stuff.

And it's like, it's insane to think that Jeffrey Epstein and Jelene Maxwell are the only people that have been indicted for his behavior over multiple decades.

Like there are other people involved.

That's not to say he was murdered, but there were other people involved that have been protected, I think, pretty clearly.

Yeah, listen, I will admit that I have just conditioned myself over the years to be really skeptical of these conspiracy theories.

And, you know, obviously,

you know, monkeys will write something coherent if you put them in front of a typebryer long enough.

So, one of these, you know, conspiracies is probably

true.

So, I gotta go, I gotta go vote.

There are these pesky little things on the Senate floor called.

I gotta go vote.

Now, see this.

Now, this will be part of the Epstein conspiracy.

As soon as we start getting into the murder, Chris Murphy's like, sorry, guys, sorry, guys.

I to go vote.

Okay, just really quick, can you just give me a 30-second rant on crypto and on the Genius Act?

Because I really wanted to ask you about that.

Just give me a rant about this crypto bill that went through because I haven't covered it yet on the pod.

Yeah, so Congress just passed with bipartisan votes a bill that essentially legalizes Donald Trump's crypto corruption.

So it's a bill that regulates stablecoin, which is a pretty small segment of the crypto economy, but a really important and growing segment of the economy.

And regulating stablecoin is not in and of itself a bad thing, but there's a provision of the bill that says: if you are an elected official or if you are a high-ranking federal government official, you can't issue a stablecoin.

Like if you're in government, if you're regulating stablecoin, you can't issue and market a stablecoin.

But the bill provides one specific exception for one individual, Donald Trump.

The bill literally says, I can't issue a stablecoin.

Marco Rubio can't issue a stablecoin, but Donald Trump can.

And the idea that we just

legalized his corruption, we put him in charge.

We just gave Donald Trump all these new tools to regulate stablecoin, to decide winners and losers, to prosecute or investigate certain actors in the industry.

And then also said that it's okay for him to be the biggest player in the industry.

Like, what the fuck?

Like, what are we doing in Congress as Democrats, if not to draw a line and say, at the very least, we are not going to enable the corruption?

Like, maybe we can't stop all of it.

But the idea that Democrats provided votes to pass this bill, it just is head shaking to me.

I'm going to bring some of your colleagues in to ask about that.

All right.

Thanks so much, Chris Murphy.

We didn't get to AI stuff trying to do it.

We didn't get to Bro Talk.

Which, by the way, come back for both those things.

AI is maybe the most important thing happening in this country today.

So happy back.

So let's go.

We'll do a bonus segment for Bulwark Pods, folks.

AI and Bro Talk.

All right.

You just let me know when you're available.

See you guys.

All right.

Thanks so much to Senator Chris Murphy.

Guys out there fighting, at least.

And I appreciate it.

I did have here in my outline,

we're going to talk about Shane Gillis and golf.

I know some of our

eight bro listeners are upset that we did not get to the bro talk segment.

So we'll have a bonus segment with Chris Murphy sometime soon.

Up next, I got to get some Hunter Biden shit off my my chest.

If you don't want to hear about that, that's fine.

This is perfect.

I'll see you back here tomorrow.

You can just come check out tomorrow's pod.

But if you want my thoughts on his three-hour podcast, stick around.

They're going to be spicy.

Our partner, Eli Lilly and Company, just announced duets for type 2 diabetes, a campaign celebrating real patient stories of support because managing type 2 diabetes doesn't have to be a solo act.

Share your story at mountjaro.com slash duets.

Mountjaro terzepatide is an injectable prescription medicine that is used along with diet and exercise to improve blood sugar, glucose, and adults with type 2 diabetes mellitus.

Mount Jaro is not for use in children.

Don't take Mount Jaro if you're allergic to it, or if you or someone in your family had medullary thyroid cancer or multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2.

Stop and call your doctor right away if you have an allergic reaction, a lump or swelling in your your neck, severe stomach pain, or vision changes.

Serious side effects may include inflamed pancreas and gallbladder problems.

Taking Manjaro with a sulfinyl norrhea or insulin may cause low blood sugar.

Tell your doctor if you're nursing pregnant plan to be or taking birth control pills and before scheduled procedures with anesthesia.

Side effects include nausea, diarrhea, and vomiting, which can cause dehydration and may cause kidney problems.

Once weekly Manjaro is available by prescription only in 2.55, 7.5, 10, 12.5, and 15 milligram per 0.5 milliliter injection.

Call 1-800-LILLIERX-800-545-5979 or visit mountjaro.lilly.com for the Mount Jaro Indication and Safety Summary with warnings.

Talk to your doctor for more information about Mount Jaro.

Mount Jaro and its delivery device base are registered trademarks owned or licensed by Eli Lilly and Company, its subsidiaries or affiliates.

Every business has an ambition.

PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

And your customers can pay all the ways they want with PayPal, Venmo, Pay Later, and all major cards so you can focus on scaling up.

When it's time to get growing, there's one platform for all business, PayPal Open.

Grow today at PayPalOpen.com.

Loan subject to approval in available locations.

All right, I've got one other thing I got to get off my chest.

I don't know if many of you saw that Hunter Biden re-emerged yesterday.

He did a three-hour interview with some Greenpoint Brooklyn-looking guy in a mustache where he vented all of his grievances about the 2024 election.

He also did an interview with Jamie Harrison, former DNC chair.

Unclear why he decided that this was kind of the moment for him to re-emerge.

But the crux of

his anger that he got out on these interviews was an extended rant about how awful James Carville and David Axelrod and the Pod Save America guys and Nancy Pelosi and George Clooney were for pushing his dad out of the race and how, I guess, his dad had no agency and how his dad was treated so poorly, et cetera, et cetera, and how he would have won if he had stayed in.

Unclear how somebody that couldn't talk could win.

But, you know, I think a lot of times we look at this through the political lens.

And

I mean, everybody here knows my view.

I do not think that

every single piece of data that we we have indicates to me that Joe Biden was not going to win.

But even if you granted Hunter's argument that this was all a mistake and that had Joe Biden stayed in, he would have had a miraculous comeback in the next debate or the people wouldn't have cared about his performance and they would have voted for him because there was this groundswell of support that didn't show up in any polls or focus groups or anecdotal conversations you had with people at the ballpark.

Okay,

even if that was true, Here's my issue with all this, and here's why I feel like it is, it needed to be addressed.

James Carville, David Axelrod, George Clooney, five guys, Pelosi, everybody, all those people were trying to advocate for what they thought was best for the country in a very fraught fucking moment.

They were making a good faith argument that they thought that the risk was too high to have Joe Biden at his age stay in the race.

None of them benefited from telling Joe Biden to move on.

You don't gain power in a political party in these days by shitting on the incumbent president.

You didn't get extra views or invites to glittery parties.

So I think that George Clooney had plenty of those.

If anything, you get ostracized.

I mean, for Carville in particular, I mean, he was

really lost some long-time friendships over this, people whose weddings he was at.

So you don't gain anything from speaking out against the president of your party or the leader of your party.

I can tell you about that.

So

this notion that this was like all about, you know, people's egos or their selfishness or their access is just insulting and wrong.

And maybe,

you know, maybe their opinion was wrong.

I tend to think they were very correct, but

they weren't doing this for some personal gain.

Like these people wanted to beat Donald Trump at a deep, deep level.

That's what motivated them.

And they're also reflecting what voters wanted, which was not to have to choose between these two old men.

So that is what I am attracted to.

That's what I'm attracted to in this moment.

That's what I'm attracted to about Chris Murphy.

I want to hear from people that want to save this country and beat Donald Trump and that they care about that with a passion in their heart and they

put themselves on the line to do it and they're willing to piss people off if they have to to do it like because saying what is true and saying what is right and fighting against this authoritarian nightmare is what matters in this moment and that's what i care about and that is my issue with hunter biden in this thing because

you know who's who did not have the country's best interests in their heart this whole time hunter biden Hunter was a millstone around his father from day one.

Sure, he was smeared unfairly at times, and I understand that he'd be mad about that.

And And if he wanted to lash out at the people that smeared him, I'm fine with that.

But he also was the cause of scandal after scandal to lie in his own pockets and to pay to get money to help pay for the legal needs that he had for his various crimes and addictions.

He said in this interview that he was qualified to be on the board of Burisma, the Ukrainian national gas company that was at the heart of all these controversies.

Really?

You seriously think a Ukrainian natural gas company was going to put an unemployed crackhead on their board if their dad wasn't the vice president?

It's crazy.

I'm sorry for using pejorative.

I don't actually, I get the addiction part.

I have friends who had dealt with addiction.

I'm sensitive to it.

And so, like,

his choices during that period,

whatever.

They didn't help his dad or the country, but it's okay.

I get it.

But what about his behavior after he was clean?

Like, one of the things that he was spending the money on that he was getting from the paintings that he was selling, like trading off his dad's name, was to pay for lawyers to try to prevent himself from having to recognize and pay alimony for his own child.

That was Sober Hunter.

Sober Hunter didn't want to parent his kid.

And so he had a bunch of, he was sending lawyers to Arkansas with money he got from selling access to his dad to try to avoid accountability for that.

That's sober Hunter.

That was also in conservative media.

Their attacks on him on that weren't a smear.

That was true.

That was his behavior.

And then that takes us back to his behavior after the debate when apparently he was sober.

At this fraught moment for democracy, Hunter is in there agitating for his dad to stay in the race, not because he, the polls, not because he's a political expert, because he needed the legal protection.

So, again, I don't know.

Maybe Jill and Hunter are the only people that were correct.

And if Joe Biden had stayed in the race, he would have muddled Fluan won in the way Camboda lost because people are racist and sexist.

I don't know.

I guess anything is possible in this world.

We've elected Donald Trump twice.

But my issue with these guys and this family is just this woe is me concern about the Biden legacy and about Joe Biden and about their reputations

and about this internicene fighting between Democrats.

It's never about the country.

It's never about what was best for the country.

It's never about what was best for beating Donald Trump.

It's never about having passion and energy and doing selfless things in order to ensure that we save the country.

So we're here now, in part because of their hubris, in part because Hunter Biden, who had no right, was around his dad in these final days and centering his own legal issues and centering Joe Biden's ego and Joe Biden's legacy over centering what would be best for the country in order to prevent this nightmare of a second Donald Trump term.

So

thanks for nothing to Hunter Biden.

He's out there doing the rounds.

I think for most of this podcast, we're going to be focused on what's actually happening in this country, and we're going to focus our outrage at the people that are just perpetrating a horrific immigration and retribution regime on the American people that they don't deserve.

And I think that is probably what I would recommend that the Bidens be focused on as well if they wanted to do their best to rehab the family legacy.

So that's that.

We've got one of my faves on tomorrow.

She's even spunkier than me.

So I look forward to it.

If you stuck around for this, you're definitely going to stick around for tomorrow.

So we'll see you all then.

Peace.

You don't know how little you matter until you're all alone.

In the middle of Arkansas, with a little rock left in that plastic, you used to date a blonde.

You used to hit it wrong

Cause she was and you are madly involved, madly involved Hitting stones and glass homes

You're smoking stones

and abandoned homes

You hit them stones

Crack, rock, crack rock

Crack rock, crack rock

Hits in stones

in glass holes.

You're smoking stones.

And abandon arms.

You're hitting stones.

Just broke your heart.

Crack, rock, crack, rock.

Crack, rock, crack, rock.

You're shucking and jibbing stealing and robbing To get the fixing that you're itching for Your family stopped inviting you to things Won't let you hold the infant Used to get a little

from time to time

But the freaks ain't trying

to sleep with crackheads In abandoned homes

You hit them stones

And you broke your home

Crack rock

Crack rock, crack rock

Cricket cap, that cap How much dope can you push to me

Cricket cap that cap

No good for community

Fucking picket shots

300 men will search for me

My brother get packs.

And don't know I'd hear the sound.

Don't know I'd hear the rounds.

Sound.

Don't know I'd hear the shacks.

The Bullard podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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