S2 Ep1009: Bill Kristol: Stiffen Your Spines, Democrats

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Speaker 2 Hello and welcome to the Bulwark Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
We got a proper Louisiana thunderstorm brewing outside my window. So, you know, if you get a little audio accompaniment of some

Speaker 2 thunderous noises, well, I think that's just appropriate for all the storm clouds we got on the horizon that we will be discussing here at the show. It's Monday.

Speaker 2 So, of course, he's editor-at-large of the Bulwark and author of our Morning Shots newsletter. It's Bill Crystal.
How are you doing, Bill?

Speaker 3 Fine, Tim. And if we lose Tim, I'll just talk.
You know, it'll be no problem at all. It'll be

Speaker 3 one of the greatest Tim Miller podcasts, actually.

Speaker 2 A crystal monologue. I had many people bragging about Bill Crystal Mondays at the New Orleans Book Festival this weekend.
It was nice to see folks out at the New Orleans Book Festival.

Speaker 2 So, you know, if you thought you were going to get demoted,

Speaker 2 I don't think it's happening. I think we think we are stuck with each other.

Speaker 3 Did you sell a lot of books at the New Orleans Book Book Festival?

Speaker 2 Actually, no, because they sold me out very quick, which was nice. So

Speaker 2 I don't think that our mutual friend, Mayor Landrew, Mrs. Landrew, the Isaacsons, they didn't realize

Speaker 2 what they had with me

Speaker 2 as far as book sales is concerned. You know, it takes a while.

Speaker 3 The locals are the last to kind of catch up to true celebrity. You know, they still think that

Speaker 3 former Mayor Landry was kind of a more important person than Tim Miller, but they'll in New Orleans, but they'll learn.

Speaker 2 That is true.

Speaker 2 I would not try to outshine the Landrys. Okay.

Speaker 2 Much, much, much to discuss. I'm kind of reluctant to have this as the first topic, but I think that we should do it in the right context.

Speaker 2 And that is that Donald Trump was on a call with Kristen Welker, meeting the press over the weekend, where he started talking about the idea that he would run for a third term.

Speaker 2 A lot of people want me to do it, he said, but I mean, I basically tell them we have a long way to go. You know, it's very early in the administration.

Speaker 2 When asked a follow-up about whether he wanted to do it, he responded, I like working. I'm not joking.
It's far too early to think about it.

Speaker 2 He goes on to say there are a couple of options, including running as VP and then having the president resign.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is, I think it's important when talking about this to say this is not legal and not going to happen. I mean, unless he wants to attempt a military coup.

Speaker 2 But it is noteworthy that he is openly talking about this without real pushback from within his own

Speaker 2 kind of party, actually the opposite.

Speaker 3 Without any pushback, right?

Speaker 3 As a single Republican popped up to say, gee, that's not such a great idea. You know, the Constitution says otherwise, but that would be too much to ask.

Speaker 3 I don't have, I mean, I assume he won't, but I don't know. We've assumed he wouldn't do other things.
He loves power. He loves being president.

Speaker 3 It does show a certain lack of confidence in his vice president, I would say, having, I'm a little sensitive to these things, having been a vice presidential chief of staff, and occasionally there was a little lack of confidence that people thought, and vice president Quayle from top Bush people.

Speaker 3 And

Speaker 3 if I were J.D. Vance's chief of staff, I'd be like, shouldn't he be saying in answer to this that, of course not.
I have a great heir all teed up and ready to continue to advance the Trump agenda.

Speaker 3 But somehow that answer did not come to his mind.

Speaker 2 No. It's worth noting just for the facts,

Speaker 2 if you're you're talking to your MAGA pal down at the

Speaker 2 down at the bar. The 12th Amendment says clearly you can't be vice president if you're ineligible to be president.
And the 22nd Amendment obviously has the term limits.

Speaker 2 So it's right there, plain text. So even the VP plan,

Speaker 2 which is the cutesy version of doing it, doesn't really work. I mean, it's like my friend J.J.

Speaker 2 McCullough tweeted, it's like, well, could this plan work for a five-year-old where a five-year-old runs as a VP and then the person resigns? Like, obviously not.

Speaker 2 So to me, the interesting side of this is part of this is him trying to stave off the lame duck element. And part of it is the fact that, you know, all things being equal, he would want to stay.

Speaker 2 And I don't think we can have any confidence that a deteriorating 81-year-old Trump wouldn't try.

Speaker 2 And I think it's worth being vigilant about that and, you know, not playing into his hands with how to talk about this.

Speaker 2 But I do think it's incumbent on the Republicans to be pressured to come out of their shell. Not that I'd be optimistic about that, but I think that it should be incumbent upon them.

Speaker 3 Not that he would ever try anything to stay in office after he's lost an election or when it's not his turn to be president. But I mean, yeah, no, absolutely.

Speaker 3 Once you take it seriously in that way, yeah, in a way, it's a harbinger not of running for a third term, but maybe just assuming power for, you know, for life, basically, if we can put it that way.

Speaker 3 The other thing I would say is I think it also does soften the ground generally for the notion that the Constitution is just a bunch of advisory statements.

Speaker 3 You know, it's not actually binding on anything. So just like, this isn't binding.
Other parts of it aren't too binding.

Speaker 3 You know, the Fifth Amendment, the Fourth Amendment, or 14th Amendment, all kinds of things that they don't like very much. Those can be kind of worked around too.

Speaker 2 Yeah, due process. We'll get to that.
The other element of where they're skirting their belief in the law is happening in Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 So we discussed on, what was it, on Thursday, I guess, with Lovett this Wisconsin Supreme Court case, which is relatively significant in that if the Republican Attorney General of Wisconsin won, then that would shift the balance of power back to Republicans.

Speaker 2 If Democrats maintain control, some of the gerrymander in Wisconsin

Speaker 2 might be changed and which could potentially allow for more fair maps in the state. So, you know,

Speaker 2 it is important.

Speaker 2 It is interesting that Elon Musk, the world's richest man, is there. He spent 20 million on the campaign.
He says that I think the fall of civilization or something rests on this race.

Speaker 2 So I don't know if it's that important of a race. He last night had a speech in Green Bay where he handed out $1 million checks to two people.

Speaker 2 Wisconsin law prohibits offering anything of value to induce anyone to vote. Also, there's some questions about whether he's running an illegal lottery in Wisconsin.
And so certainly...

Speaker 2 A lack of care about following election laws in Wisconsin would be the nicest way that you could put it. What do you make of Elon in Wisconsin? And we'll talk about the race itself.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, he's not a big election law, dutiful, careful election law obeyer kind of guy. And I guess this is part of that pattern.

Speaker 3 They seem to think it's an important race, both for, I guess, for what it will do in Wisconsin, as you said, in terms of gerrymandering and other things.

Speaker 3 And also having a friendly Supreme Court in place in 2028. Just to get back to our original topic, Wisconsin is a swing state.

Speaker 3 And, you know, they have in the back of their mind that, hey, that could be one where we'd want the Republican state legislature, if it's Republican, to contest the race and go to the state courts.

Speaker 3 Someone told me that he also went on at some length in his speech defending what he's doing on Social Security, that he's sort of, you know, he's just getting rid of fraud.

Speaker 3 So they're all lying about what he's doing, closing these offices and making it harder to get your Social Security, which is sort of, A, maybe not what you want him talking about on the Sunday night before the vote in Wisconsin.

Speaker 3 And secondly, it does show that maybe that issue is, you know, they feel it's hurting them some, or he feels personally wounded by it, as he deserves to be, incidentally.

Speaker 2 For sure. I mean, I think that the Doge fraud and the Doge corruption, and just like the haphazardness with which they've done, acted, it's certainly hurting them.

Speaker 2 The other little thing about just this 1 million,

Speaker 2 I just want to linger on that for one more second, because one of the winners, so-called winners of the 1 million, appears to be the head of the college Republicans in the state.

Speaker 2 Again, we'll see exactly how that works out, but that doesn't seem like that is a process on the up and up.

Speaker 2 We've seen some from the left online talking about how Democrats, like one way to play hardball here is Elon Musk should be arrested in Wisconsin.

Speaker 2 We don't do a ton of arresting over election law violations, though we used to, but less lately with the neutered Federal Election Commission. I guess my question is, how do you deal with this?

Speaker 2 Like it is just out in the open corruption. Like it's comically obvious.
He's got the big checks.

Speaker 2 The whole thing is, it's almost like when you imagine electoral corruption, you imagine like behind the scenes, you know, there's a brown paper bag or, you know, it's the Mayor Daily.

Speaker 2 It's like this kind of stuff. Like what they do is avoid accountability by

Speaker 2 doing everything so out in the open.

Speaker 3 Now the chose president has the Justice Department.

Speaker 3 They also avoid accountability by knowing that there's a zero chance that there'll be any federal enforcement against this. And then it goes to the state, and then you get into a slight...

Speaker 3 Alvin Bragg situation where why is the state enforcing a federal law? And it's awkward. It looks like it's just politics if it's a Democratic Attorney General or something.

Speaker 3 So, yeah, the impunity is pretty astonishing, though, and bad, obviously, for the country. And sadly, we're two months into this administration.
Is it going to stop now?

Speaker 3 I think that's something I've, I won't say I've underestimated, but I'm really struck by it.

Speaker 3 I mean, when you have a Justice Department and an FBI that's not even pretending that it will investigate any problems on your own side or bring charges, even when they're pretty obviously called for, and when it's pretty obviously excusing every single person against who legitimate charges have been brought on your own side.

Speaker 3 So it's a get out of jail card for everyone on your side and

Speaker 3 they're also going after obviously people on the other side. That really,

Speaker 3 that's so corrupting.

Speaker 3 I mean, and it's more than, it's worse than Trump's personal corruption, I'd say, in the grift, you know, or even worse than his personal pardoning of people and stuff to have the entire apparatus of the federal government.

Speaker 3 firing, you know, career prosecutors, as I say, taking care of your own people, going after the ones you don't, people you don't like out there. That is bad.

Speaker 3 That is literally what authoritarianism is, and that's what we have. I do think it's only, don't you think this Wisconsin election, I guess, will all be, so it's Tuesday, right?

Speaker 3 So we'll all be, I guess I'll be writing about it Wednesday morning. You'll be talking about it Wednesday morning.

Speaker 3 Pretty big deal in the sense that, and I'm, I mean, I think if Democrats win, people will say, well, they won the judicial election back in whatever that was, 2023.

Speaker 3 And, you know, probably the Democratic governor probably sort of stood to reason that they would win by a few points. What if Republicans win this election?

Speaker 3 They will be a huge freak out, wouldn't you say, on the Democratic side?

Speaker 2 I do. Well, and I think either I think, look, there's the Wisconsin Supreme Court election and then the same night as this Michael Waltz election in Florida over on

Speaker 2 basically from St. Augustine down to Daytona Beach, quite a red district.
And so I think the potential for freakouts just as far as tea leaf reading is very much possible on both sides.

Speaker 2 I think that it's this kind of math teacher running Wisconsin against Randy Fine, who's kind of a weirdo and unpopular Republican.

Speaker 2 So that's hurting Republicans in addition to the environment being concerning for Republicans.

Speaker 2 As far as like these types of things go, you know, they both are decently significant, like more significant than they would be in a vacuum.

Speaker 2 One thing I just want to make sure I clarify and get this right. The sitting attorney general of Wisconsin is Josh Call, who's a Democrat.
So, I mean, in theory, he could be enforcing.

Speaker 2 election laws in the state with regards to Musk. I just want to leave that out there.

Speaker 2 The candidate for the Supreme Court, Brad Schimmel, is a Republican that was the former Attorney General of Wisconsin. So very significant.
Musk had a cheese head hat on.

Speaker 3 Oh, I didn't see that. Is that right?

Speaker 2 He looks very silly.

Speaker 2 We'll put it in the show notes if people want to laugh at him. Tesla's stocked down today a lot.

Speaker 3 I'm sure he's a real authentic Packers fan and Badger fan.

Speaker 2 Yeah, he's

Speaker 2 such a masculine man. I'm sure he can name more than three present NFL players too.
Definitely he's a guy that knows sport.

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Speaker 2 I want to move on to El Salvador. Lot to discuss about a lot of developments over the weekend.

Speaker 2 I want to start, though, with this audio from a town hall because I think it ties to these political questions

Speaker 2 as well as the El Salvador show itself. Victoria Sparts, who is the Ukrainian immigrant that is a Republican representative from Indiana, was at a pretty raucous town hall.

Speaker 2 She had a lot of negative feedback from the residents. Appreciate those folks for showing up.
But she got kind of on tilt talking about the deportations.

Speaker 2 Well, not deportations, the kidnappings, the removals to El Salvador. And here's a little bit of what she said.

Speaker 11 You seek asylum way to the other country.

Speaker 2 Not getting here in the country.

Speaker 1 So there is,

Speaker 1 there is no due presence if you don't care illegally because you violated the law. Period.

Speaker 1 You violated the law. You are not entitled to depart.

Speaker 1 Legal United Citizens Act. And these people

Speaker 2 You violated the law, so you are not entitled to due process. It's not

Speaker 2 not really how things work, actually.

Speaker 2 How would that work exactly?

Speaker 3 What's the Alice in Wonderland thing? I mean,

Speaker 3 verdict first,

Speaker 3 trial afterwards, or something like that. I can't remember.
The Queen of Hearts, I think, says that. Yeah, that's right.
I guess that's our new system.

Speaker 3 And it is the system, incidentally, on these, as you say, deportations or kidnappings to El Salvador, as well as some of the others that we're seeing at airports and stuff.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's pretty horrifying, really, as you've pointed out many times.

Speaker 2 Sentence first, verdict afterward from the Queen of Hearts. Goodbye.
Yeah, Victoria Sparts is just going to give off Queen of Hearts energy.

Speaker 2 I want to actually go through what we've learned about a couple of these cases, and I want to talk about the politics of it, too. So we've been discussing Andre, the gay makeup artist, quite a bit.

Speaker 2 The ACLU is in court on his and others' behalf. So we found the government's rationale for removing him.
It was the tattoos. In this case, he has two tattoos that they pointed out.
They were crowns.

Speaker 2 One said mother underneath, one mom, and one said dad. So I don't know if those are popular gang tattoos, but it sure doesn't seem like it to me.

Speaker 2 Also, if you just you can like look at like a partial transcript, I guess, of the interview with him, where he keeps like saying, No, I'm not part of a gang, no, I'm not part of a gang, no, I'm not part of a gang, and then the ICE agents writing down yes, trying to Aragua, and the whole thing is extremely Orwellian.

Speaker 2 Then the Miami Miami Herald did some good reporting on this other gentleman, Frengol Reyes Mota.

Speaker 2 They write that in the filings with regards to Mota, the government uses someone else's last name in several parts of the document, identifies him with female pronouns, uses two different unique ID numbers that immigration authorities use to keep track of individuals.

Speaker 2 It doesn't seem like they were really crossing their T's on that. We talked about Neri Alvarado, the baker with the autism awareness tattoos.
Then the Dallas Morning News has done reporting on this.

Speaker 2 And I'm going to be talking to the Mother Jones reporters. I think I've talked to families of 10 of the Venezuelans who are in El Salvador on YouTube later today.
So people can check that out.

Speaker 2 I don't understand how you can go through these case by case and not think that there's... you know, there's a real problem here.

Speaker 2 Like, you know, maybe in one of these cases, it's like, like I've been joking, maybe that maybe Andre is like the hairstylist in the movie Blow who's helping move cocaine in and out like it's possible.

Speaker 2 But just the scope of these and the different

Speaker 2 reporters doing good work in several different credible outlets, it just seems like there's a real problem here.

Speaker 3 Yeah, you know, I also thought, okay, it's terrible anyway, but one or two people got caught up in the dragonet. I don't know.
Maybe it's 10 people. Maybe it's 50 people.

Speaker 3 I have no confidence that even that the bulk of these people are gang members. I mean, maybe, you know, again, what does that even mean?

Speaker 3 They're people who hang out with people in gangs and aren't themselves criminal or or criminal in a much more minor way or didn't have much choice if they're, I don't know, you know, if they're older brother or their friend.

Speaker 3 Some relative is in the gang. You can't sort of, you know, turn against it.
You're threatened. So anyway, I really do wonder, yeah, I mean, who these people are.

Speaker 3 Of course, God forbid they should actually put out the names of these people like a normal government would do and what evidence they have.

Speaker 3 Our friend Aaron Reichland-Melnick saw this over the weekend.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure if he came up with this or is simply passing it on, but they gave to the ICE agents, I guess, these kind of guidelines for how they should decide who to throw into the you know onto the plane and and kidnap and send them to el salvador and it's the tattoos turn out to be basically key to it right or i mean there are these different points it's idiotic and they're these points you can give and then but i think if you have bad tattoos or what's the other thing you have to have something sort of slightly also equally insignificant those pictures of the phone or like you know where you've done things that could be gang signs or yeah

Speaker 3 which part of venezuela you're from And then, you know, you add up to eight points, and there you are. You know, and these are things that you look at this.

Speaker 3 It's one thing to have a list like this as a kind of guidance for who you might want to interrogate more and, you know, bring to court and have an investigation about.

Speaker 3 It's another thing to just put them on a plane to this penal colony in El Salvador. So, yes, this thing, the more you look at it, the worse it smells.
It's really terrible.

Speaker 2 I haven't had you on since the Christy Gnome pin-up video with the Rolex watch. I know we were texting about this.
I just want to let you kind of cook on Christy Noam.

Speaker 3 No, you and I were. I mean, it's so nauseating, really, and sick.
Really, just sick. That's what I felt about it.

Speaker 3 And the idea that she thinks it's funny or great or tough or appropriate, and that people, I guess, in MAGA world are sort of relishing this is awful.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's one thing to send people somewhere, you have to do it, or make a mistake and send some other people who shouldn't be there, that you don't have to do that, but that happens in life, I suppose.

Speaker 3 But to be relishing, and she goes after we know or have very good reason to believe that some of these people shouldn't be there, right? It's not like she was innocent.

Speaker 3 You know, she didn't know she was there the next day. She went a week after they got there and after a lot of this reporting had begun to come out.
It's really awful.

Speaker 3 I mean, I'm annoyed at Democrats, and you've got talked about this.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I want to give it to you.

Speaker 2 Before we talk about how annoyed we are at Democrats,

Speaker 2 we went through this period where it was like, Democrats, Bernie went on Joe Rogan's podcast. You can't go on Joe Rogan's podcast.
He's so awful. He's so cancelable.

Speaker 2 Well, let's hear who has been more clear-eyed about what is happening with the Venezuelans between our Democratic politicians and Joe Rogan.

Speaker 2 Here he is with Constantine Kisson, who I also don't really like. He's kind of one of these contrarian, centrist, comedian, you know, anti-woke types.
But here's the two of them discussing the

Speaker 2 El Salvador prison.

Speaker 15 And I think a human being being plucked out of nowhere and ending up in a country he's never been in, in a maximum security prison with gang members, seems like a bad thing to happen to me.

Speaker 3 It's horrific.

Speaker 2 It's horrific.

Speaker 15 I don't think that should be controversial.

Speaker 16 No, that's not controversial at all. And this is the thing, you know, measured twice, cut once.

Speaker 16 This is kind of crazy that that could be possible. That's horrific.
And that's, again, that's bad for the cause. Like, the cause is let's get the gang members out.
Everybody agrees.

Speaker 16 But let's not innocent gay hairdressers get lumped up with the gangs. And then, like, how long before that guy can get out?

Speaker 16 Can we figure out how to get him out?

Speaker 16 Is there any plan in place to alert the the authorities that they've made a horrible mistake and correct it?

Speaker 15 Well, if you think about it from a government perspective, and this is where I think it gets quite sinister, is once you've done that, the incentive structure is never going to be to admit that and deal with it.

Speaker 15 The incentive structure is to say nothing, to cover it up, to pretend it didn't happen.

Speaker 3 That is horrible.

Speaker 2 Horrible. More moral clarity and emotion from Joe Rogan than we've seen from basically anyone in elected office over this.
I sent a tweet the other day because I was like, maybe I'm just missing it.

Speaker 2 You know, I was like, could you somebody send me examples of Democrats? And obviously, fuck the Republicans. None of the Republicans have said anything.

Speaker 2 Not only that, they're doing their sadistic photo shoots with the

Speaker 2 people that they've kidnapped. So just stated.

Speaker 3 F them.

Speaker 2 The Democrats, though. So I sent a tweet.

Speaker 2 I was just like, could people please send me any examples of Democrats saying or putting out a statement about the Venezuelan refugees that we've sent to this fucking hellhole?

Speaker 2 And I got a couple of replies. Debbie Wasserman Schultz put out a pretty good statement.
I'm blanking on her name. There's a congresswoman from Texas, put out a pretty good statement.

Speaker 2 I'll put that in the show notes because I want to give her credit. But a bunch of people sent me examples of Democrats speaking out about Oz Turk.

Speaker 2 And for whatever reason, I think people feel more comfortable about what's happening on campuses and free speech. And that's great.
The whole, the situation with Tufts is horrible. But that was it.

Speaker 2 Those two were the only ones I've seen. And it's like, okay,

Speaker 2 I know we've got Dems listening to this right now. It's like, what is the holdup on this?

Speaker 2 Like, why, what is it about this that allows Joe Rogan to speak with moral clarity about how horrific it is, but it doesn't allow you to? I truly don't understand.

Speaker 3 Well, because Joe Rogan is just saying what he believes. And in this case, he's being a normal human being.

Speaker 3 And Democrats cannot say a word, apparently, if you're an elected official without going through some filter of what pollsters have been telling you for the last six months.

Speaker 3 And a rather stupid filter at that of polling data. And the immigration bad, very difficult issue.
Biden border, bad. So gangs, bad.
Tough on immigration, good politically.

Speaker 3 Therefore, Trump sends people to El Salvador, including innocent people, and dehumanizes them. And we can't say a word about it.
I mean, it's the stupidest.

Speaker 3 I mean, A, it's wrong, obviously, and totally lacking in courage. And B, it's an incredibly stupid way to think about polling and about politics.
You know, the Iraq War was popular in 2004.

Speaker 3 No one wanted to look like you were a fan of the people we were fighting. It's a bit of terrorists over there and so forth.

Speaker 3 And Abu Ghraib happened, and I think this is what, summer of 2004, and people were correctly repulsed, and there was huge turmoil.

Speaker 3 The Bush administration should have fired Rumsfeld then, but didn't, but did discipline the people who did this over there. They apologized.
It shouldn't be done. We shouldn't have done this.

Speaker 3 This is the middle of a war, incidentally, which we're not in with Venezuela.

Speaker 2 Aaron Powell, and by the way, Abu Ghraib was awful. But in that situation, it was enemy combatants.
It was terrorists. And at some level, this is even worse.

Speaker 3 Yeah, yeah, no, this is much worse. They're just sitting in a jail here.
There's no need to send them to El Salvador, you know.

Speaker 3 But anyway, and Democrats did not get hurt by, and some Republicans, John McCain and many others, said this is terrible.

Speaker 3 So it's a good example, though, if they looked at the polls and didn't want to be on the wrong side of the war on terror, they wouldn't have said a word.

Speaker 3 Now, obviously, there was some of that that happened back then, incidentally.

Speaker 3 Obama, I said this to someone else the other day, rock war, you couldn't afford to support, to offend that, to oppose that. John Kerry and all.

Speaker 3 The one guy who did was Obama because he was just a nobody, you know.

Speaker 3 You know, the state senator from Illinois, and he figured, I'll just say what I believe, and he ended up being president six years later. So politicians are too poll-driven generally.

Speaker 3 Democrats in particular, though, you should explain this to me. I mean, Republicans, well, I'll give you one tentative explanation.
Why are Democrats so poll-driven or poll-intimidated?

Speaker 3 And Republicans, I think, a little less so. And I'm actually at this conference here with some Democrats, and one guy made a very good point to me.

Speaker 3 He said, you know, Republicans are used to having issues where they're not really on the winning side.

Speaker 3 Being pro-life has never really been the majority view in America for the 30 years that Republicans were. Being pro-gun to the degree they are is not the majority view.

Speaker 3 People kind of like reasonable gun control. They had to defend these things.
That was what their coalition wanted, or they believed it.

Speaker 3 And so they found ways to kind of fight back a partial birth abortion or to, you know, claim that they wanted to confiscate all your guns.

Speaker 3 But Republicans in a way were used to looking at polls and figuring out, well, how do I deal with it? You know, how do I work around it? How do I mislead people a little bit, but whatever.

Speaker 3 Instead of simply saying, oh my God, I'm on the 60-40 losing side of something. I can't say a word, right?

Speaker 3 Maybe that's one reason Republicans are a little more aggressive in not simply collapsing when they see a negative poll. I don't know.
What do you think? Is there something to that?

Speaker 2 Here's what I think is part of it, at least in the modern day, in the Trump era. I don't know if I can speak to whether this was true or the case

Speaker 2 among Democrats back when I was on the other side. I think that a lot of Democrats really feel confused by the country right now.
And I think that is what was driving it.

Speaker 2 Like they just genuinely cannot understand how Donald Trump had won, don't really understand the, kind of do.

Speaker 2 You can pay lip service to the appeal, like get it at, get it at one level, but like at a deeper level, somewhere deep inside them, they're like, I actually really still don't understand.

Speaker 2 And I, I kind of feel this way a little bit too. And so it's like,

Speaker 2 I should probably be more cautious.

Speaker 2 I should probably listen to, you know, look at the numbers and look at the data and like think about what issues, what issues can I talk about that might appeal to these people who I don't understand, right?

Speaker 2 Who voted for Donald Trump. That's my armchair psychology analysis about why it's happening now.

Speaker 2 And this is why I'm playing the Joe Rogan clip for these folks, folks, because it's like, I assume it's surprising to some Democrats. They're like, oh, wow, Joe Rogan is speaking out on this clearly.

Speaker 2 And it's like, maybe this is not as unpopular of an issue as I thought, right? Like, maybe

Speaker 2 the American people aren't that terrible. Maybe like the American people have some terrible instincts and are easily manipulated and are easily conned.

Speaker 2 But like when it comes to the case of a gay hairdresser getting sent to a foreign gulag for no reason. You know, maybe we can get majority support for that.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 It seems to me like it's worth a try. A, it seems to me that it doesn't fucking matter, actually, whether it's popular or not, but it's also worth a try.

Speaker 2 Like if you can listen to a Joe Rogan podcast and hear them speaking like that, like a normal human with empathy, with clarity about how this is something that Americans should be against, it's fundamentally anti-American, then maybe that will stiffen the spine.

Speaker 2 I will tell you, if as a carrot, Maybe they don't want this carrot actually because they don't want attention about them talking about immigration. I think that is another really big part of this.

Speaker 2 Democrats will decide that any talk about immigration is bad for them.

Speaker 2 But, you know, if you're a Democrat looking for for attention and want to do a selfie video where you're talking about how horrible this is, I will share it.

Speaker 2 I will send it to my other friends who have big accounts and they will share it and we will, you know, get attention for you because attention is important these days.

Speaker 4 Ah, greetings from my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 7 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

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Speaker 12 Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

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Speaker 2 We have the tariffs coming. Again, Liberation Day is this week.
April 2nd, that is Wednesday. You know, we are, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 2 Obviously, I'm always a little hesitant to do a stock market talk on this pod because things can change over the the course of the day. But

Speaker 2 off the open today, you know, NASDAQ's down about 2%. Dow's down a little bit.
S ⁇ P is down about 1%. So the market continues to dip on the idea that Trump is serious about this with the tariffs.

Speaker 2 He's given no indication. There's a big political story over the weekend that

Speaker 2 the people around him don't really understand what the plan is. But all they do know is that Trump...
wants to go big. He's serious about it.

Speaker 2 Those little leaks coming from inside the White House, you know, eventually, if he doesn't actually follow through, you would think that his own ego would prevent that, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, given how much he's put into this, there's a good chart, though, is like for people who are struggling to follow this, like what tariffs has he talked about, what is coming, and what has actually happened.

Speaker 2 What has actually happened is the steel and aluminum tariffs and the China tariffs. Everything else has just been discussed.

Speaker 2 To me, I've always felt like this is actually going to happen, that it's not. That's not WWE, but I guess we'll know more in three days.
What do you make of it?

Speaker 3 I mean, one thing to say is that an awful lot of damage is done just by the endless talking about it and going back and forth on it.

Speaker 3 So I talked to someone for European government last week, saw in Washington. And, you know, what if he doesn't do it this time because he gets spooked or something?

Speaker 3 He could do it three months from now or six months from now when he needs to appeal to the base or he gets annoyed at some government doing something totally random on some other issue, right?

Speaker 3 So, I mean, I think the degree to which it disrupts the alliance, not that he cares, I guess, about that, and disrupts the world economy, which he should care a little bit which is what the markets are reacting to.

Speaker 3 Even those of us who were very alarmed about Trump's second term sort of assumed that on the economy he'd be constrained, and on terrorists he'd be constrained because he cares about the stock market.

Speaker 3 So, one thing I didn't think he'd be constrained on mistreating immigrants, he wouldn't be constrained on the rule of law.

Speaker 3 He might not be constrained on destroying NATO, but on the economy, economic stuff, somewhat constrained. But it may all have gone to his head so much, it doesn't even feel constrained on this.

Speaker 3 And he's talking tough now, right? We'll have to go through some tough times, but we'll come out of it. Afterwards, stronger nation.
Maybe he really has internalized

Speaker 3 the argument.

Speaker 2 Aaron Trevor Brandon, I think so. This is Bloomberg this morning with the market rout intensifying.
Also, Goldman has rising recession concerns.

Speaker 2 And Bloomberg says that it's leaving the SP 500 index on track for its worst quarter as compared to the rest of the world since the 1980s, which again shows that this is just like this is not some global downturn that has happened in the first three months.

Speaker 2 It is something unique to the uncertainty that Trump is inserting into

Speaker 2 the market.

Speaker 2 Just as far as buying their own BS, one thing I thought was interesting over the weekend was our vice president, the poster-in-chief, quote-tweeted as this guy that writes for Red State named Bonchi.

Speaker 2 You don't need to know all the characters here, but he's conservative. Red State was Eric Erickson's thing.

Speaker 2 He's quite conservative, occasionally, you know, is maybe not the biggest MAGA, but it's a decently MAGA.

Speaker 2 And he posted about how this tariff thing is crazy and you're going to help, you know, a small number of people who are in one sector in this manufacturing sector, but it's not even going to do that much.

Speaker 2 But you're going to help a small number of people. And like, there's going to be massive other groups of people who are MAGA voters who are harmed by it.
Listen, just to his tweet.

Speaker 2 JD quote tweets him and says, it is this brain-dead liberalism, pretending to be conservatism, that saw the U.S. go from the world's manufacturing superpower to blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 The guy didn't tag JD.

Speaker 2 Like, JD just decided to dunk on some random conservative blogger and calling him a liberal now because he's against tariffs because now to be for tariffs is to be conservative in their worldview.

Speaker 2 And I just thought that was interesting because it reflected kind of a real defensiveness and an emotional attachment to defending the tariffs because he thinks that they're actually coming.

Speaker 2 And also, I thought it also was interesting because to me, it read like him trying to intimidate people into staying on side. Like this thing is coming this week.

Speaker 2 And if you're a right-winger and you're going to criticize it, well, then you're going to get the vice president giving you a spanking.

Speaker 3 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: I was struck when I saw this European I mentioned earlier, I think, for lunch, diplomat.

Speaker 3 He said they were, you know, I said, what's most got you upset and rattled. Of course, that was a huge long list.

Speaker 3 And fundamentally, it's Trump's basic policies of reversing 80 years of the alliance and all this, and the Hagseth and Vance speeches in Europe in early, mid-February.

Speaker 3 But he said actually he thought for people in government, it was the transcript, the signal text transcript of Vance,

Speaker 3 the hatred of the Europeans. And Hegseth echoes it just to suck up, I suppose, to Vance.

Speaker 2 All caps, pathetic.

Speaker 3 Yeah. I mean, what are we even talking about here? I mean, there's no, the Europeans have done a pretty good job standing up in Ukraine.
They've sent a ton of money to Ukraine.

Speaker 3 In response to us, they're now saying they'll do even more and they're going to spend a lot on defense or whatever.

Speaker 3 I mean, it's not as if the Europeans had just told us to get lost or something like that. We've told them to get lost.
They're reacting in a pretty grown-up way. What is that all about, except?

Speaker 3 I mean, why does J.D. Vance and Pete Hegseth, what do they care one way or the other, honestly, about? You know, they have a deep hatred and resentment of the Europeans.

Speaker 3 I guess it's sort of owning the version of owning the libs, owning the Europeans. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I think that that is related to it. It's related to me to the Denmark thing.
Yeah, it is, right? It's Greenland. So J.D.'s in Greenland last weekend on Friday.

Speaker 2 You know, like he's giving this preposterous press conference. It feels like it's from a different universe.

Speaker 2 The thing that struck me from the press conference maybe the most was the parts where he's going after Denmark. Because it's like deeply personal, like the way that he's going after Denmark.

Speaker 2 He's like, you know, I don't want to infringe it. Essentially, it was like the Danes let us down.
They let Greenland down. They're not doing their job.
Like, we have to be

Speaker 2 one of his tells. Whenever he's being ridiculous, he starts with, we have to be honest about this.

Speaker 2 We have to be honest about this. You know, the Danes, you know, have really, have really failed as a partner.
And it's like, but he never says what they did. Like, what did Denmark?

Speaker 2 Denmark didn't do anything.

Speaker 2 Denmark actually is, as far as a percentage of their GDP is spending above the NATO, you know, what is required for NATO, and they're increasing it over the course of the year.

Speaker 2 The Danes sent people to the wars. JD mentions that and kind of dismisses that also too.
He's like, oh, well, great.

Speaker 2 So the Denmark, Danes sent some soldiers 20 years ago, and now I'm supposed to be nice to them. It's like,

Speaker 2 you know, they can't even articulate it. Like it is, it does feel, and I can understand why the Europeans then would feel more alarmed by that because it feels like they have a deep emotional hatred.

Speaker 2 for our allied nations that's frankly like irrational.

Speaker 3 And they love bullying them, especially the little Denmark's a very small country.

Speaker 3 They've kind of done their best to help and to be a good partner. They did send, I believe, troops to both, if I'm not mistaken, Iraq, but certainly to Afghanistan.

Speaker 3 And they've been cooperative when we've wanted to actually have some troops in Greenland and stuff. I mean, it's not even worth getting into because it's so ludicrous, except to say that, yes,

Speaker 3 there's a deep hatred, apparently, of these European, not just the European governments, incidentally. One of the striking things about Vance's speech in Munich was he hates the European nations.

Speaker 3 It's not just this particular lefty government. A lot of these countries don't have particularly lefty governments right now, actually.
I don't know about Denmark's.

Speaker 2 Yeah, Met Fredriksen is, she's kind of like a center left.

Speaker 3 Yeah, I mean, it's been very nice.

Speaker 2 It's nice for Europe. She'd be pretty left for here, probably.
But yeah, I mean, she's not like

Speaker 2 a rabid. No, it's not.

Speaker 3 Believe me, one thing you've got to say, in fact, I would say the moment Trump won, they've all gone out of their way to try to be nice. They visited Mar-a-Lago.

Speaker 3 We're upping our defense spending for NATO. We understand that he's got some concerns about trade.
We want to talk to him. They've been much nicer than we have been, to you and I, to Trump.

Speaker 3 And for this, they've just gotten slapped around by events and by all of them, really.

Speaker 4 Greetings from my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 7 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 9 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 10 I used it to get this portable spa with Jets.

Speaker 11 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body.

Speaker 12 Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 2 Save the offer in the app.

Speaker 13 NS1231, see PayPal.com/slash promo terms, points keep your renewing for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval.

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Speaker 2 Part of the same call with Welker where Trump floated, you know, becoming an autocrat, he also talked to about Putin. And we're going to get into this tomorrow.

Speaker 2 This is going to be more of a foreign policy-focused pod, but I think this bears mentioning is that he says that he's kind of disappointed with Russia, like over the fact that they haven't cut a deal.

Speaker 2 I guess Russia, Putin made some comment about how Ukraine should have some other temporary government during the deal. Like it shouldn't be Zelensky that they're negotiating with.

Speaker 2 And Trump said he was disappointed with this.

Speaker 2 And then he kind of went on to say, if Russia and I are unable to make a deal on stopping the bloodshed in Ukraine, and if I think it was Russia's fault, which it might not be, but if I think it was Russia's fault, I'm going to put secondary tariffs on oil and all oil coming from Russia.

Speaker 2 So again, he thinks tariffs is the magical solution.

Speaker 2 The whole thing, again, I mean, there's always, this is important because when you're analyzing the situation, like there is a school of thought, a tendency that's just like, Trump is a Russian asset.

Speaker 2 He's crazy off. It goes back to the 80s.
He's going to do whatever Putin wants. Then there's another school of thought that's like, which I like lean more towards, which is Trump is a child.

Speaker 2 He's like extremely naive. He just wants people to suck up to him.
Usually Putin's nice to him.

Speaker 2 He really thought that if he got in there, Putin would just like do him a solid because they are buddies and because the world is the deep state was was after them, and Russia gate, and like, and they can do economic deals together, and he'll make Russia rich.

Speaker 2 And that he misjudged the fact that, like, no, Putin is actually kind of serious about this.

Speaker 2 And I don't know. And there's just some indication that, like, Trump is a gullible fool.
It was the right operative theory to always be working on.

Speaker 3 And don't you think he's intimidated by Putin? For sure. I mean, thus, the kind of fake, I'm going to really have to be serious if he doesn't go along with this, which I've never thought he would.

Speaker 3 And he's going to just keep pushing and pushing and pushing and in ukraine and and elsewhere probably and um i'm going to put those secondary i mean really are we serious is that a serious threat at this point we have massive sanctions on russia pissed off i i did i just think that was interesting he didn't he didn't say disappointed i wanted full stuff he said i was pissed off when putin started getting to zelensky's credibility i don't know

Speaker 2 i just think the right operating theory with trump is that it's all talk it's all bullshit he's going to be nice to you as you as long as you suck up to him

Speaker 2 And nobody really called his bluff the first time through. And I think that if like there is this theory, like, oh, he's this tough guy.

Speaker 2 And if Putin calls his bluff, he's going to really come hard at him. I don't think so.
And I think that Putin has his number on it.

Speaker 3 I'm very confident that you're right about that.

Speaker 3 Maybe Putin occasionally, you know, if he, after pissing him off for two months, will give him a little piece of candy to keep him, you know, so Trump could feel like, oh, he's now he's really trying to try to be nicer to me.

Speaker 3 And that'll keep Trump going for another two months, you know.

Speaker 4 Greetings from my bath, festive friends.

Speaker 7 The holidays are overwhelming, but I'm tackling this season with PayPal and making the most of my money, getting 5% cash back when I pay in four.

Speaker 9 No fees, no interest.

Speaker 10 I used it to get this portable spa with jets.

Speaker 11 Now the bubbles can cling to my sculpted but pruny body.

Speaker 12 Make the most of your money this holiday with PayPal.

Speaker 2 Save the offer in the app.

Speaker 13 NS1231, see paypal.com/slash promo terms. Points can be renewed for cash and more paying for subject to terms and approval.

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Speaker 2 I want to close with your newsletter on which regimen was it here?

Speaker 3 The 54th? 54th.

Speaker 2 It was a response to the executive order that was put in place late last week about

Speaker 2 DEI and the Smithsonian and we're going to get rid of, remove improper ideology from our museums, remove anything that talks about how the U.S.

Speaker 2 has used race to establish and maintain systems of power, privilege, and disenfranchisement. And you're in Boston and went to see a memorial and kind of give a little screed on this regard.

Speaker 2 And so I wanted you to verbalize the screed.

Speaker 3 Okay, I don't know. I'll do my best.
Race turns out to be doesn't incidentally about what 75-80% of all the stuff they hate.

Speaker 3 I mean, in terms of the culture war stuff, the transgender thing is bad and some other stuff, but it is a lot of it's about race.

Speaker 3 It's striking in that stupid executive order how much of it's about he doesn't like that we're being too woke about race. So, anyway, I'm here in Boston.

Speaker 3 I got here, turned on the TV in the hotel room to watch the NCAA. This has been a bad, can we just say this has really been a disappointment?

Speaker 2 The tournament's horrible.

Speaker 3 Yeah, there's no close games, no drama.

Speaker 2 Girls' tournament's been great. Unfortunately, I lost you last yesterday in the Elite Aid, but the girls tournament's been great.

Speaker 3 Yeah, too bad about that. But four number one seeds in the finals.
That's really not America. You know, America's about some St.
Peter's is America, you know, 15th seed winning.

Speaker 3 Anyway, so that's my, so the game is crummy. So I went out for a little walk.
It was freezing actually here in Boston on the Comet.

Speaker 3 And I vaguely remember remember there was this memorial on the other side of the Common. It's been a long time since I'd seen it, though.
And it's this fantastic memorial erected by Augustus St.

Speaker 3 Gaudens, the famous sculptor, I guess. And he did it, and it was dedicated in 1897.
It was a huge deal. President of Harvard, William James spoke, and all these characters.

Speaker 3 And a beautiful sculpture of Robert Gould Shaw, who the son of a kind of aristocratic young man who volunteered to lead one of the first black regiments in the Union Army.

Speaker 3 I hadn't realized that the Emancipation Proclamation explicitly provides that for the first black soldiers can and should be recruited to fight in the Union Army, which ended up being pretty important.

Speaker 3 Like 10% of them by the end were black soldiers. The Confederates treated them, these say, if captured, horribly, and also their white officers.

Speaker 3 So they had white officers for these black regiments back then treated them horribly, if they were captured. So this was one of the first ones.
They marched down

Speaker 3 Boylson Street or some street here in Boston. Before going off, they launched an ill-advised, heroic attack two months later, and half of them were killed, actually, including Shaw.
It's amazing.

Speaker 3 Frederick Douglass recruited people for this regiment. Two of his sons served.
Wow. So much later, it became famous at the time.
That is, I hadn't realized that till I did my Wikipedia type reading.

Speaker 3 You know, Lincoln talked about it and stuff. And it really had an effect on sort of this is really, real equality.
You know, there's emancipation approclamation. It sounds nice.

Speaker 3 Slaves should be liberated when the war ends, basically, in the southern states.

Speaker 3 But here in the north, we're actually going to have a regiment that wasn't quite integrated yet, but still, you know, of black soldiers fighting, you know, with a, this part is kind of a little patronizing to say it this way, but I mean, you understand at the time how it was, with a white colonel who's actually a, you know, a serious person who volunteers for that job, and others did too, actually, to be the officers.

Speaker 3 So they fought very well, people at the time said, and I think that they were fought as well as white regiments. So it was a big deal at the time.
And then 30 years later, they put up this war.

Speaker 3 And again, it just struck me as such a contrast with the kind of history, the kind of pablum, the kind of whitewashing that Trump's trying to do.

Speaker 3 Hagseth is getting books removed from the Naval Academy's library, if they're biographies of Jackie Robinson and Martin Luther King's autobiography. I mean,

Speaker 3 it's really what he has to say. Here's my coda to this.

Speaker 3 So Mitch Landry, who I think we mentioned already, you're the former mayor of New Orleans, you're a friend from down there, he's at this conference. I ran into him this morning.
So he's Mr.

Speaker 3 Monuments, right?

Speaker 3 He famously took down the Confederate monuments in New Orleans and gave a very good speech on this about how a lot of them had been put up not right after the war, or much later as part of a kind of southern defense of the Confederacy.

Speaker 3 So I said, you would be, have you been to see it? And he said he'd seen it years ago, he thought, but I said, you should walk over if you want to break from this conference.

Speaker 3 It's pretty amazing, and it's just a work of art, it seems to me. And also, he has a real interest in this kind of thing.
And it was interesting.

Speaker 3 He then said, he gave the speech removing certain monuments, one of which had been put up in 1893 by a racist mayor of New Orleans who had actually fought as a young person for the Confederacy, and put up a monument to Lee or something like that, to kind of make a statement about Jim Crow and Reconstruction, the end of Reconstruction and kind of,

Speaker 3 you know, that was what that was about in the 1890s. I wonder, this I don't know.

Speaker 3 I wonder how much the monument here and the speeches that made such a big deal of it was kind of a northern response to the southern attempt to re-legitimate the Confederacy. But anyway,

Speaker 3 it's a moving memorial, and you can go online and read speeches that were given at the time by William James and Elliot, the president of Harvard.

Speaker 3 The spirit of that memorial is a lot better than the spirit of Trump's executive order and Hexeth's idiotic directive to the Naval Academy, and we'll outlast them. That was my confident conclusion.

Speaker 3 Maybe too confident. Not too confident, right? They can't possibly.

Speaker 2 No, it will outlast them. I don't know if the memorial will.
The movie Glory, which also depicts this, will certainly outlast them. Denzel, you know, has their number on this.
But

Speaker 2 I don't know, man, the like the extent to which like people, and I guess we should go with this because this is the other conversation we were having in the green room. I think it's related.

Speaker 2 The extent to which there is just a CYA reaction to this sort of thing across a ton of different

Speaker 2 institutions and stuff where you're already seeing people are just like, oh, we should, let's not do Frederick Douglass Day this year. I don't want to deal with the hassle.

Speaker 2 Or let's not do this thing that we've been doing, you know, to honor

Speaker 2 a particular marginalized group. And so, like, the executive order is going to forcibly remove some things from the museums, which is horrible.

Speaker 2 But then, on top of that, like, there are going to be all these other institutions that are like saying, ah, better to be cautious. You know, let's just not do this.

Speaker 2 There will be a counter reaction as well by some groups. I think Gay Pride this year is going to be probably as rowdy as it's been in a while.

Speaker 2 It sort of lost its luster, I think, after the Bergefell ruling. But I think we might be back.
Gay Pride might be back this year. But a lot of institutions are doing that.
And I think that that is

Speaker 2 going to have a negative impact, like with regards to education and history and what we're learning about our past. But then it also has a tangible effect on what's happening right now.

Speaker 2 And you mentioned your conversation with the Boston College professor when we were off air. And I think we should maybe close with that, which is just that like

Speaker 2 other people who are worried about the nonsense that they're doing with visas at the airports.

Speaker 2 And, you know, if you're a foreign, if you're a foreign student or former professor or here on a work visa or whatever, it's like, like, maybe this year I shouldn't travel outside the country.

Speaker 2 Like we're already seeing people from, you know, the incoming flights from Canada this year way down, right?

Speaker 2 And so like some of this is like the authoritarian, I make a decision and there's a response, but a lot of it is then the choices that are made in the culture and how things ripple out.

Speaker 2 And I think that's very concerning.

Speaker 3 Absolutely. I mean, it's the authoritarian offensive by Trump and his people is bad and is gone but more aggressive than people perhaps expected.

Speaker 3 But the lack of response by outside and the accommodation and acquiescence to some degree, or at least silence and sort of quiet accommodation and lack of willingness to pick fights, has been also very bad.

Speaker 3 And that is the one-two punch. I don't know what would you call it, the push and the pull or the, you know what I mean? It's sort of the flip side, right?

Speaker 3 I mean, as one could have imagined Trump being as bad as he's been for these first two and a half months, but one can also imagine a pretty different scenario in terms of everyone's reaction, reaction, you know, and not half the law firms, but all the law firms standing up, not some universities sort of sounding firm, but others just collapsing, but all of them together taking a stance and other civic institutions and so forth.

Speaker 3 I'm not sure I would have expected that. I don't know.

Speaker 3 I think, again, people were sort of like the Democrats, so rattled by some of their own mistakes in the past and sort of the country that it turned out they didn't understand well, overestimating, I think, Trump's power in many ways.

Speaker 3 These are massive institutions with a lot of resources. And, you know, it's a little bit of, I don't want to fight with these guys.
I don't know.

Speaker 3 You know, but really, what's going to be so terrible to fight with, you know, what's her name? Linda McMahon. Is that her? Trump's Secretary of Education.
I don't know. I don't know.

Speaker 3 The courts, I think, have been pretty good. I can say the judges seem to have a certain amount of, you know, metal in their spine.
And maybe life tenure turns out to be a good thing, but I don't know.

Speaker 2 All right. Well, we'll explore it more next week.
Thank you, Bill, as always. And everybody else, we'll be back here tomorrow for another edition of the Bullworld Podcast.
We'll see you all then.

Speaker 2 Peace.

Speaker 2 Watching ships go on.

Speaker 2 Don't sail seven single.

Speaker 2 And old Not

Speaker 2 Watching times

Speaker 2 erase

Speaker 2 our

Speaker 2 momentum

Speaker 2 The Bullworth Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

Speaker 3 Here for the Lowe's early Black Friday deals?

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Selection varies by location. Select locations only.
While supplies last. See Lowe's.com for more details.

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