Bill Kristol: Weird and Extreme

Speaker 1 Get ready for Malice, a twisted new drama starring Jack Whitehall, David DeCovny, and Carise Van Houten.

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Speaker 7 What lengths will he go to?

Speaker 6 One thing's for sure, the past never stays buried, so keep your enemies close.

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Speaker 14 Hello and welcome to the Bullard Podcast. I'm your host, Tim Miller.
It is Monday, July 29th.

Speaker 14 We've got the Venezuelan election sham, Donald Trump zeroing in on his anti-Kamala message, the Veep stakes, Slayer Pete on Fox.

Speaker 14 But first, I've got Bill Crystal, and the best thing to do with Bill Crystal is a little gossip. And is it possible there's going to be a second ticket switch in this race, Bill Crystal?

Speaker 11 I mean, no one thought the first one was possible, right? So in for a dime, in for a dollar. That's my view.
And I wonder if Trump actually thinks a little that way.

Speaker 11 Like, gee, you know, they won't say you can't do that. And Biden did it.
Seems to be helping them.

Speaker 11 Why should I be stuck in this kind of old-fashioned thinking that the first guy we nominate is the guy we we have to stick with?

Speaker 14 We obviously are referring to J.D. Vance.
The J.D.

Speaker 14 rollout has been disastrous on style and substance. I guess there's a little in MAGA world, some positive buzz around his remarks on Saturday in Minnesota.

Speaker 14 But even still, the degree of vulnerabilities he's brought to the table, emphasizing all of Trump's weaknesses, you know, particularly with women. They're at least thinking about it.
You do, Buzz.

Speaker 14 There's at least some people in MAGA world that are thinking about it. They're at least doing some due diligence, maybe looking to see if they could get rid of him.

Speaker 11 I mean, I was told over the weekend that they've asked some lawyers, not in the campaign, but close to the campaign, to make sure that he can be replaced, that he can be certainly within the next 10 days or so.

Speaker 11 It gets a little more complicated after that.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I think they're worried about him, and they're right to be worried because a lot of these scandals, you and I have been through this a few times, you know, it's something someone said 20 years before, they wrote a student newspaper, or they were, I don't know, drunk driving, you know, 15 years ago or something.

Speaker 11 This is not in the past. And that the nominee then has a 12-year record after that where he's behaved, he or she's behaved responsibly, right?

Speaker 11 This is right now. He said these things three years ago.
He reiterated them this year. This is what he believes.

Speaker 11 It's not even like Trump, who sort of had a, I don't know, well, he's a 78-year-old guy, and he has a certain vulgar, to say the least, and unseemly and bad record on respect for the opposite sex and so forth.

Speaker 11 But still, he's like, people have a little discount of it. That's what 78-year-old, vulgar, rich guys, that's kind of the way they behaved in the past.
And Vance is choosing this as a young person.

Speaker 11 This is what he's embracing it. This is his thing.
In fact, it's the one thing anyone knows about him. He has no legislative accomplishments, obviously, right?

Speaker 11 So I think the degree to which this doesn't go away, the degree to which this isn't a 48-hour story, the degree to which this is getting imprinted on Vance's persona, so to speak, that's very dangerous.

Speaker 11 It is dangerous for them. And of course, as you say, it complements what people think about Trump anyway.

Speaker 14 Trevor Burrus, Jr.: On the persona side of things, you know, we were talking about the childless cat lady clip that everybody's kind of zeroed in on.

Speaker 14 That was the interview was a couple years ago, but it was during the Trump presidency. To your point about how this stuff is present, not past.
It was 2021 interview with Tucker Carlson.

Speaker 14 He's asked about it with Megan Kelly over the weekend. Let's see how deft he is in cleaning up his insult to childless cat ladies with Megan Kelly.

Speaker 15 Obviously, it was a sarcastic comment. I've got nothing against cats.
I've got nothing against dogs. I've got one dog at home, and I love them, Megan.

Speaker 15 But look, this is not, people are focusing so much on the sarcasm and not on the substance of what I actually said. And the substance of what I said, Megan, I'm sorry, it's true.

Speaker 14 So I've got nothing against cats. Let's just diagram that.
So you insult childless cat ladies, and then when you're asked about it, you say, I've got nothing against cats.

Speaker 14 So I guess he does. still have something against the ladies, the voters.

Speaker 11 I think he insulted them a little more, honestly, in that segment with Megan Kelly. And then, was it last night he was on Fox with Trey Gowdy?

Speaker 11 And Trey Gowdy opens up with about a two-minute monologue where he personally shows real discomfort with this, tells a little story about himself with a couple of childless ladies whom he respected very much.

Speaker 11 They turn out to be nuns. It's a nice story, whatever.
And Vance is coming on after this monologue. And so Gowdy opens the door for Vance to kind of walk it back again.

Speaker 11 And again, Vance doesn't do it.

Speaker 11 And I got to think, if you're Trump watching this today, you think, geez, I mean, they tried to, we've given him two chances here on our favorite network to almost favorite network to get to get to get out of this.

Speaker 11 And maybe he's not getting the message. And I don't know.
Trump likes firing people, right?

Speaker 14 Supposedly. I like saying he likes to fire people more than he likes doing it.

Speaker 14 Also, if you're Trump, you know, your newsletter this morning has kind of this imaginary conversation between Trump and Don Jr.

Speaker 14 And if you're Trump, you kind of have this feeling of, I get to be the one that does this sort of stuff.

Speaker 14 I get to be the one that does like rude and inappropriate things and then like kind of makes jokes about it and insults me. That's me, but you don't really get to do it.
Like you're here to help me.

Speaker 14 I do think there's that little bit of element in this conversation, you know, kind of in the behind the scenes, you know, buzz about what to do about Vance.

Speaker 14 There's another like tangible problem that he's brought to the ticket, which is on the money side. I'm sure that many of these guys will come around.
They've all come around a million times before.

Speaker 14 But, you know, fans,

Speaker 14 part of the argument for choosing him, right, as well as this, was this nonsense argument that upper Midwestern, you know, white men like him, which I don't, there's not really any evidence for.

Speaker 14 But the other is that like he supports, you know, this pivot to nationalism and populism, and that's more aligned with Trump, and that there's this other cash of Peter Thiel type donors and stuff that want the party to move that way.

Speaker 14 And so they'll support it.

Speaker 14 But like the downside of that is like the traditional Republican donors, like the old Bush Romney world donors who like have like reluctantly held their nose for Trump, they're not excited about this.

Speaker 14 And having Vance out there hurting you with those donors and hurting you with voters, I feel like it has the possibility to

Speaker 14 resonate more with Trump when he's hearing from rich guys that are pissed about it too.

Speaker 11 I mean, I'm told, admittedly, thirdhand, probably second-hand, third-hand, something like third-hand, that this happened. But I think it sounds right.

Speaker 11 Trump apparently raised this issue when people, when Don Jr. and Tucker were pushing Vance, and he knows, he talks to all these donors all the time.

Speaker 11 That's who he has dinner with every night at Mar-a-Lago, basically. And some of these donors are kind of pro-Ukraine.
And, you know, and they're on board with Trump.

Speaker 11 They're not as put off as they should be, but they are concerned. And he said, I don't know, isn't Vance like sticking it to them?

Speaker 11 Shouldn't a more, I don't know, you know, like a neutral pick, Tim scott uh bergham type wouldn't it reassure these guys and trump is explicitly said told look some of these ken griffin paul singer type donors are may shy away from fans they do care a little bit about you know nato and and ukraine and stuff like that but but you're going to get elon musk and peter thiel and those guys will make it up the money will be fine and then elon musk seems to back off from this 45 million dollars a month he's allegedly giving to a super pack right and i'm told that trump sort of has raised that with people like, well, wait a second.

Speaker 11 You told me that Musk and Thiel would replace the older donors. And Thiel, there's an article with it over the weekend somewhere that, well,

Speaker 11 he likes to pick a Vance, of course. He pushed for Vance, but he's not so sure he's really into giving money these days to campaigns and to super PACs.
And it's like, I fear Trump.

Speaker 11 It's like, wait a second. I mean, I'm going to have to pay a financial price for taking this guy, too.

Speaker 11 So I don't know. I mean, you know, the firing thing, you're right, that Trump doesn't personally like to fire people.
He's sort of chickened that way.

Speaker 11 But the people who say, well, Trump could never admit a mistake, I don't know. Trump fired a zillion people in the first term.

Speaker 11 And he just, all he says is, I got kind of deceived by the, you know, the recommendation. They turned out not to be really loyal or competent.
And I'm getting rid of this guy.

Speaker 11 And he never paid a price, right?

Speaker 11 He was able to turn his supporters against it. Now, maybe it's a little, it's harder, I grant, with Vance than with John Bolton or H.R.
McMaster or Rice Priebus or whatever.

Speaker 11 But Trump's experience of firing people who he doesn't think are doing a good job for him is not, oh my God, I I pay a price every time I do it. It's I've gotten away with it every time I do it.

Speaker 14 Yeah. I mean, I think that as a practical matter, I mean, we're being a little cheeky here.
As a practical matter, it's really tough to get rid of Vance.

Speaker 14 I mean, just A, the logistics of it are challenging. To your point, the environment around it, you know, it's kind of like, what, you're going to replace him with Doug Bergham?

Speaker 14 At some point, there is some kind of message that's sent to MAGA World.

Speaker 14 Like, there is a, there's a category of vocal people that are excited about Vance and that in that he made this pick to kind of signal the change of the party.

Speaker 14 And then like after one bad week, you're like, okay, I'm going to go back to some old, you know, a stuffed shirt kind of, you know, Chamber of Commerce Republican.

Speaker 11 So I've thought about this in my fantasy world if this could happen. Don't you think he has to maybe goes to a woman if he gets rid of Vance? Elise Stefanik would not be a crazy pick.

Speaker 11 She's all in on MAGA, but she's not. She doesn't have this particular problem with Vance.
Maybe Sarah Sanders. I don't know.
I feel like there's a couple of picks available to him.

Speaker 14 Those both seem better, by the way. I do think just practically, I think think it's very unlikely.
I think the fact that the discussion is happening, it's true, and it's worth us discussing it as well

Speaker 14 and stoking the embers a little bit. But I mean, just objectively, how could Elise Stefanik have been worse than us, Oza Peck? Well, exactly.
I think that's right.

Speaker 11 She's almost exactly the same age as Mance, right? But she's been in Congress longer. And she's more of a bridge.
And she's stood up under pressure pretty well, right?

Speaker 11 And she did a good job of that hearing with the president. Running against the college presidents isn't a bad thing to do against the college campuses in September and October when they reopen.

Speaker 11 That's kind of her thing these days, right? So far be for me to promote Elise Stevanek, who I once knew

Speaker 11 very much disapprove of, but here we are, right? But I'm just objectively, again, analytically, I agree. It's a super long shot.
It doesn't happen very often.

Speaker 11 It happened in 1972 with Tom Eagleton, kind of unjustly, I think, but was, you know, it turned out he'd had this. electroshock, I guess, therapy for depression.

Speaker 11 Kind of an impressive guy, Eagleton, when I read up, I've forgotten this, when I read up on him to see.

Speaker 11 He was on the ticket for 18 days before McGovern dumped him.

Speaker 14 What day are we in right now?

Speaker 14 We're coming up on 18, right?

Speaker 11 10 or so, right? Thursday.

Speaker 14 Well, 10, 11, 10, 11, yeah.

Speaker 14 Huh. Okay.
Well, I meant it less as a compliment to Elise Stefano. It was more of an insult to JD Vance that he clearly would be at this point.
She clearly would have been better than him.

Speaker 14 But, you know, dealer's choice on how you want to take that. One last JD thing.
On the left, the Democrats have coalesced around a talking point. One that I do,

Speaker 14 I can't take credit for this. I'm not patting myself on the back, but it's a talking point that I've been promoting aggressively for years now that the Democrats should use on these guys.

Speaker 14 And let's just listen to it.

Speaker 14 But before we get to the clip, the voices you're about to hear in this mashup, it's a mashup that Jen Saki put together, are Governor Minnesota Walls, Chris Murphy and Brian Schatz together, then Andy Bashir of Kentucky, then J.B.

Speaker 14 Pritzker, and then Kamala. Let's take a listen.

Speaker 16 Democrats have kind of organically settled on a new attack line against Donald Trump and J.D. Vance.
Basically, these guys are just plain weird.

Speaker 11 Freedom to tell your kids what they can read. That stuff is weird.
They come across weird. They seem obsessed with this.

Speaker 11 We're using this fake living room to talk to you about a super weird idea from J.D.

Speaker 14 Vance. Yeah, it's not, I mean, it's quite weird.

Speaker 17 What was weird was him joking about racism today and then talking about Diet Mountain Dew. Who drinks Diet Mountain Dew?

Speaker 11 On the other side, they're just weird. I mean, they really are.

Speaker 16 Some of what he and his running mate are saying, well, it's just plain weird.

Speaker 14 What do you think, Bill?

Speaker 11 First of all, you're not giving yourself enough credit. And Sarah, too, you guys have been promoting this in a way for quite a while.
Promoting is not even the right word.

Speaker 11 I mean, Sarah's focus groups show that our experience in 2022, Republican Voters Against Trump experience, doing stuff in Arizona and Michigan and Pennsylvania against these right-wing Trumpy candidates.

Speaker 11 We were all against them primarily because they were, like Trump, threats to the constitutional order, the rule of law. They were election deniers.

Speaker 11 But I think in the actual testimonials that all these voters in those states did, what they said is they're extreme, they're strange.

Speaker 11 It was a little less, you know, they said this about the 2020 election, and therefore I'm voting against them. That was part of it, though.
So I think it works.

Speaker 11 I think extreme needs to be combined with weird. Otherwise, weird becomes one of these insults that sort of fades away after a few days.

Speaker 11 And it's like, okay, fine, he's a little weird, but now we're used to him, you know.

Speaker 11 And there has to be substance behind it. I think the people who are saying weird because he said this is much better than just saying the word weird.
But weird and extreme, I think, works pretty well.

Speaker 14 I think it really works for JD. It worked for Mark Kelly against Blake Masters.
I had friends doing a polling in that race.

Speaker 14 In certain types of polls, they ask, you know, do you have a favorable opinion of somebody? You know, what do you think about the economy? Basic questions like that.

Speaker 14 And then they have an open-ended question, like, what do you think about Blake Masters? And the number of people in the open-ended, they're like, he's strange, he's weird, he's creepy.

Speaker 14 I really jumped out at the pollsters that I was talking to. As like, that's not something you often see in those kind of verbatims.
And Vance and Masters do have a similar carriage.

Speaker 14 And so I think that there's something there. You can overdo it, of course.
I didn't understand what Andy Bashir's point there was. I don't think it's that weird to diet Mountain Dew.

Speaker 14 You can drink it if you want. But the cat lady stuff and some of the other just kind of obtuse, you know, far-right, super online, weirdo meme stuff they get into, I think is exploitable.

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Speaker 14 I want to get to Trump over the weekend. There was a clip that was going around

Speaker 14 that's something that he says kind of a lot, but it just caught on. This happens with Trump because very few people watch, you know, this full two-hour speeches.

Speaker 14 And so then he has a lot of weird shtick. You know, if the only thing you see is Hannibal Elector and the sharks, like that's weird.
But that's only like 45 seconds of a speech.

Speaker 14 He speaks for two hours, so he's got a lot of shtick.

Speaker 14 And this line that he used at the Turning Point Believers Summit, this is for Christian youth in West Palm Beach, was going around social media this weekend. And let's take a listen.

Speaker 18 I don't care how, but you have to get out and vote. And again, Christians get out and vote just this time.

Speaker 18 You won't have to do it anymore. Four more years.
You know what? It'll be fixed. It'll be fine.
You won't have to vote anymore, my beautiful Christians. I love you, Christians.
I'm that Christian.

Speaker 18 I love you. Get out.
You got to get out and vote. In four years, you don't have to vote again.
We'll have it fixed so good. You're not going to have to vote.

Speaker 14 I'm a Christian. Really?

Speaker 14 Well, Bill, what are your initial thoughts to that?

Speaker 11 You know, you said something about, you said his shtick. It could be a little weird.
I agree with that. I also think he's somehow the edge comes off it with Trump because it's such a shtick.

Speaker 11 I mean, that clip you play, it's so nuts, right? My beautiful Christians. And what does he do? He's sort of, he's a Christian.

Speaker 11 He remembers that he's supposed to say that it makes it sound like he's talking about these oddball followers.

Speaker 14 Yeah, these other people.

Speaker 11 Which is what he has in his mind, of course. And then he reminds himself, you know, real time, I'm a Christian.
So, you know, and if I can just tie it back to the Vance, Vance has none of that.

Speaker 11 shtick-like character, which I think helps Trump more than people realize. It's a little bit like a, you know, Henny Youngman.

Speaker 11 He's insulting me, but but he's not really insulting me because it's a shtick, you know, whereas Vance is so earnest about it.

Speaker 14 Yeah, people are dialing in also on the, you know, you're not going to have to vote anymore. There's not going to be elections part of it.
I just wanted to focus on that element for a second because

Speaker 14 on the one hand, I think Trump deserves criticism for this stuff because of his own behavior in 2020.

Speaker 14 He has opened himself up to this line of criticism that, you know, people are like, maybe he means that he's going to cancel all elections. And I think that Trump intentionally plays into this.

Speaker 14 Like, Trump has this part of the shtick as, you know, I'm going to say things that I know the media and the never-Trumpers are going to clutch their pearls about. And I'm going to say this stuff.

Speaker 14 And it's going to make them seem crazy because they're going to be out there saying he wants autocracy, he wants a dictatorship.

Speaker 14 When all I'm saying really is that, like, I'm going to do things so great that you're never going to need to vote again.

Speaker 14 Everything's going to be fixed, which is kind of an absurd argument in itself since he's already been president and things weren't fixed. But

Speaker 14 that kind of sort of tightrope walk, I'm just wondering how you think people should respond to that. Because on the one hand, he deserves the criticism.

Speaker 14 On the other hand, you don't want to play into his hands by sounding hysterical.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I'm a little of two minds about it. I mean, he really is a danger as an autocrat, and he did really try to overturn the 2020 elections.
I'm not sure that...

Speaker 11 taking an ambiguous, kind of slightly goofy statement like the one he just made may not be the best way to make that point when you have January 6th right there in your face.

Speaker 11 So I guess I'm slightly of the view that that this statement is more in the ridiculous, I can fix it category as opposed to the super scary, I'm going to try to overturn the next election category.

Speaker 11 But they sort of slide together, as you say.

Speaker 14 They do slide together. And I think this is why, so it's important to, I think, play them in concert.
So here he is. At that event Saturday that I mentioned that Vance spoke at.

Speaker 14 They're at a hockey center in St. Cloud, Minnesota.
I think this was booked back when Biden was still the nominee and they wanted to pretend like Minnesota was in play.

Speaker 14 Maybe Minnesota would have been in play with Biden, not really in play anymore. Recent poll had the vice president up by six in Minnesota.

Speaker 14 I think it's the only one we've seen since she's taken over the spot as presumptive Democratic nominee.

Speaker 14 The Minnesota Post noted in this speech that he also, not only was it outdated in the location where it was held, but it was outdated in the subject matter.

Speaker 14 He kept making anti-Biden points, and then it would have to remind himself that he was running against someone else. But there's one element of that speech I wanted to pull out and play for people.

Speaker 14 Let's listen.

Speaker 18 If they don't cheat, we win this state easily. Okay.
They cheat. They have no shame.
They cheat. Do you understand that, you crooked people? They're the most crooked.

Speaker 18 They cheat. They cheated in the last election, and they're going to cheat in this election, but we're going to get them.

Speaker 14 That's a category difference, right? Like the first one, he's trying to do the joking thing. This is real.
This is demagogic, and that's angry, and that's a demagogue.

Speaker 14 And I think that it's important to show both of those clips together.

Speaker 11 Oh, I'm glad you did that. And I'd missed that myself, not watching all two hours of his speech.

Speaker 11 No, that's an incitement to violence and to all kinds of things, both incidentally before the election day, you could argue.

Speaker 11 You've got to stop the cheating by having people with guns show up at the polling places in certain neighborhoods, you know, to prevent cheating.

Speaker 11 And then, of course, after Election Day, too, if it's at all close. So, yeah, that is more dangerously demagogic, I agree.

Speaker 14 It's like we're in Minnesota saying they're only going to win if they cheat.

Speaker 14 Republicans haven't won Minnesota in ages, which takes us to the deep stakes and one such candidate. I want to focus on Mayor Pete and his quasi-audition, I think, on Foxy with the weekend.

Speaker 14 But while we're on Minnesota, tons of momentum for Tim Walls. I'll just put my cards to the table.
I like his presentation. He does talk like a normal person.

Speaker 14 I'm begging Democrats to talk like a normal person. He doesn't talk like, you know, a politician with lots of, you know, flowery phrases and, you know, kind of languid.

Speaker 14 You know, he speaks like a former teacher, right? That's speaking to this class. I like that.
I do worry a bit about

Speaker 14 one of the vice president vulnerabilities being, you know, sending out that tweet about trying to raise money for the bail fund for people that were rioting in Minnesota, kind of reanimates George Floyd.

Speaker 14 There's just a little bit of this, we're not going back thing. And do we want the person that was a governor there that was in the midst of all of those fractious battles to bring that stuff back up.

Speaker 14 I haven't heard a lot of conversation around that about Walls. It's mostly people being like, well, I've never heard of this guy, and he's great making fun of J.D.
Vance on TV. And like, that's true.

Speaker 14 I do like that. But I worry a little bit about the George Floyd stuff.
I don't know. What's your sense of Walls?

Speaker 11 Yeah, the same. I think him

Speaker 11 talks like a normal person, looks like a normal person. So far as one can tell, he is a normal person and more normal than most politicians.

Speaker 11 And he's good at the kind of normal-personed attack on the weirdness of Vance and Trump. So I think in that way, he would play well and goes down easy, so to speak, as a spokesperson for the ticket.

Speaker 11 He'll be an excellent surrogate if he's not vice president. Yeah, I think A,

Speaker 11 La Savita put out a video of Harris from 2020 urging people to give money to this bail fund in Minneapolis and Minnesota, which does seem to have bailed out some, unfortunately, doesn't, maybe it's worth having a bail fund for poor people and so forth, but still bailed out some pretty bad criminals who committed other crimes.

Speaker 11 So a little Willie Horton-like there. And B, yeah, Minneapolis, I just went back and looked for five minutes.
I'm like, Minneapolis was in bad shape in the summer of 2020.

Speaker 11 And you have Governor Waltz sort of saying we didn't handle this well at first, which is commendable candor. And I'm not sure any governor handled that tough a situation that well.

Speaker 11 And the governor doesn't have total power.

Speaker 11 There's a mayor, but it was on his watch, so to speak, that Minneapolis was one of the more, you know, more vivid examples of the demonstrations turning into riots, actually, and genuinely getting out of control.

Speaker 11 And Waltz says that himself in this one clip, New York Times story I saw from, you know, that post-George Floyd moment. So it's not a showstopper.

Speaker 11 Everyone has negative things, as you and I were discussing earlier. Every vice presidential candidate, every politician has something in the negative balance sheet, so to speak.

Speaker 11 In addition to the George Floyd riots in particular, I mean, he is a liberal governor.

Speaker 11 He's a reasonable liberal governor, but a more orthodox liberal, I think it's fair to say, than most of the other VP candidates being talked about.

Speaker 11 And Harris, again, kind of rightly or wrongly, is viewed as sort of on the left or center-left side of the party, certainly, let's say, to the left of Biden.

Speaker 11 And it just seems basic politics that if you're slightly on the left of where the average voter you have to get is,

Speaker 11 you don't pick another candidate, a VP candidate who's also probably a little to the left of where the average voter you have to get is.

Speaker 11 He's been a good politician in Minnesota, but that's a little to the left of the country.

Speaker 11 So again, I think Harris-Waltz could be a perfectly fine ticket, but I think doesn't do quite as much for you as some of the other VP picks, I think.

Speaker 11 And a little risky because of the salience of the crime issue and the weird accident, I suppose, or whatever of Harris having this Minnesota fund that you somehow got plugged into and him being the governor of Minnesota at that time.

Speaker 14 Two other things on the walls, really quick for our progressive listeners will listen to this list and think, wow, these things are all great.

Speaker 14 But to your point of what his agenda has been as Minnesota governor, I'm stealing this from Kyle Kalinsky, who tweeted it complimentarily.

Speaker 14 Universal free school meals, legal weed, carbon-free electricity by 2040, 12 weeks paid family lead and paid sick leave. That's probably part of the Harris agenda.

Speaker 14 Either way, a bunch of laws related to gun laws, conversion therapy, free public college under 80,000, you know, 2.2 billion increase in K-12 funding, sectoral union bargaining for nursing home workers.

Speaker 14 I mean, all that, there's nothing on there that I'm like, wow, you're an extreme socialist, right? But just to the point of, and maybe this is a plus, right? Maybe that you can argue this is a plus.

Speaker 14 I just think it's worth. noting that compared to the other people on the VEEP stakes list,

Speaker 14 he has the most, I would say, doctrinaire progressive record.

Speaker 14 And, you know, some people just see that as a plus. I think that there's maybe an argument for trying to soften the vice president's public image.

Speaker 14 I do want to shout out Walls on one thing because I just, I think this was crazy. So I was learning about him.
You got to give him props.

Speaker 14 He is a football coach and a high school teacher in rural Minnesota in 1999. He enlisted as a soldier that year in the Minnesota National Guard.

Speaker 14 A student at the school where he is also teaching geography, in addition to being a football coach, wanted to start a gay, straight alliance.

Speaker 14 He mentors the kid that wants to start a gay, straight alliance and helps them do it. I mean, this was rural Minnesota in 1999.

Speaker 14 This was around the time of where Democrats, Bill Clinton, was just after Bill Clinton had signed the Defense of Marriage Act and Don't Ask, Don't Tell.

Speaker 14 You know, here he is, you know, doing this as an enlisted soldier in the Minnesota National Guard. Here's his quote at the time.

Speaker 14 It really needed to be the football coach who was a soldier and was straight and was married, Wall said. In other words, he'd be a symbol that disparate worlds could coexist peacefully.

Speaker 14 Big props for that. I think it definitely shows kind of an internal strength and a moral clarity that wouldn't be too bad to have in a vice president.

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Speaker 14 We also have Mayor Pete. I want to turn to.
And there's another skill set that I think is worth valuing as we discuss his process.

Speaker 14 Let's take a listen to just one clip of him just absolutely eviscerating Shannon Bream on Fox News this week.

Speaker 19 He didn't keep his promise of 6% economic growth. He didn't keep his promise to drain the swamp.

Speaker 19 Even before the pandemic, America went into a manufacturing recession, which really hurt places like where I come from in the industrial Midwest.

Speaker 14 But anyway,

Speaker 19 my point is he broke his promise for that kind of economic growth.

Speaker 19 He broke his promise to pass an infrastructure bill, right? He said he would do that. He failed to do it.
The Biden-Harris administration got it done.

Speaker 19 He even broke his promise to that January 6th mob when he said, I will be at your side when you march down to the Capitol. But he actually did keep two promises.

Speaker 19 He kept his promise to destroy the right to choose in this country, and he kept his promise on tax cuts for the rich.

Speaker 19 And if you want to know what a second Trump term would be like, I would start by looking at those rare promises that he actually managed to keep.

Speaker 14 Hoodog.

Speaker 14 That's just one minute. That went on and on.
Poor Shannon Preem.

Speaker 14 Sorry, I'm stealing this for somebody who said that Pete's like a snake charmer.

Speaker 14 Shannon's doing her best to represent the Trump line and he's just bringing her along with him. What were your thoughts on that?

Speaker 11 I mean, Pete is uncommonly good, obviously, and candidate quality really matters. And it's only on Walls.
I don't think either of us has seen him enough to know.

Speaker 11 I mean, the candidate quality could be... as high as in the best clips of him, or it could be more pretty good, you know, and that I think that would matter matter a lot.

Speaker 11 And I do think with Harris, too, there needs to be something that a little Clintonian that plays against liberal type. Pete is fantastic, though, and he does it on Fox, right?

Speaker 11 Which has got to, I don't know if there are any actual Fox viewers of Shannon Reeve who are now going to be more open to voting for the Harris whoever ticket, but there are others who are sort of Fox adjacent who will think, you know what?

Speaker 11 He went on Fox and he held us totally composed and polite and just makes the case in such a devastating way.

Speaker 14 There are some Fox viewers, by the way. Yeah.
I had breakfast with Jeb last week. He might be a swing voter.
He's watching Fox.

Speaker 14 So I think that there are others in that vein that are Atlanta suburbs, lifetime Republican voting men who are like looking for an excuse to not vote for Donald Trump.

Speaker 14 And Pete goes on there and can do it. I like how he

Speaker 14 deftly... you know, kind of drops in a January 6th hit on a question out of nowhere, but he does it in the sly way where it's Trump even broke his promise to the rioters.

Speaker 14 You know, Trump told the rioters he'd be there with them. Instead, he was sitting in the Oval Office eating hamburgers, watching it on TV.
I like that. I like the

Speaker 14 manufacturing side of things. You know, it's like, oh, well, like, no, Trump got screwed over by COVID.

Speaker 14 And he's, and Pete is like, no, actually, we're in a manufacturing recession before COVID started. And we've invested all this in red states and in our community since.

Speaker 14 He has a way of speaking the language. And I think that the clip is important, but to your point about walls, I would throw in every other candidate besides Pete in this bucket.
We don't know.

Speaker 14 We don't know. They might be good.
They might be not good. Even Shapiro, who I think is pretty deft and pretty good.
He might turn out to be really good. He might turn out to just be okay.

Speaker 14 Pete, we know, is going to be really freaking good. And I don't know.

Speaker 14 I've been, you know, not the biggest Pete cheerleader for this pick just because of the identity stuff and the baggage that you bring. It's like, oh, we're going to do a black woman and a gay man.

Speaker 14 It's just, is it a lot for people to swallow? Is it a bit too big of a spoonful in in one bite? But on the other hand, it's like you know that he will crush. And he's already been vetted.

Speaker 14 You know, there's not going to be a round of, oh, the South Bend police force already did all that four years ago, like his random controversies from his previous life.

Speaker 14 The longer this has gone on, the more I've been like, maybe, maybe she should just really think about Pete.

Speaker 11 Look, I'm with you on that. I've sort of been there from the beginning, but everyone just gossiped me when I say it, frankly.
So maybe she's just ruling it out. And maybe she's right too.

Speaker 11 Honestly, she has a decent chance to win the election just by playing it a little safer. For me, it's actually also the fact that he's in the Biden administration.

Speaker 11 It's a slight downside, you know, along with the identity politics. It's a little two people from the Biden Harris administration running to succeed Biden.

Speaker 11 Whereas one advantage of the VP pick is it fully separates Harris, as it were, from Biden. It's now Harris X.

Speaker 11 Now, that may not be true because Pete has his own image, you know, apart from being working for Biden, obviously.

Speaker 11 One thing, just on the candidate skill, running for president is different from running for governor. And Pete ran for president.
And Pete did an excellent job.

Speaker 11 We all just take it for granted that he kind of came pretty close. He was like tied for first in Iowa and then, what, just second, I can't remember anywhere in New Hampshire.

Speaker 11 But I mean, he was right up there in the very top tier, starting from 16th, probably, right? I mean, in that field. And that shows he did it all.

Speaker 11 I mean, I mean, the candidate skills, you have to have to do that at the presidential level and go through a zillion debates and a zillion interviews and not all friendly ones, obviously.

Speaker 11 And incidentally, that clip that's kind of packaged that's not so great about everything Harris said as she was contorting herself to try to appeal to the left in 2019. You've seen that, obviously.

Speaker 11 And that is a bit of a problem. She can walk away from most of those things, fracking.
She's already done so. But Pete didn't do that.
I mean, think about that.

Speaker 11 He went through a very kind of bad, I'm going to say Democratic primary bad for quite a long time until they coalesced behind Biden, where people were kind of looking foolish, mostly.

Speaker 11 And he and I would say Clobuchar maybe maybe, are the two who really did fine in Sanders, if you wanted that. You know what I mean?

Speaker 11 But they were the kind of the ones who, I think, came out of it looking maybe better than when they went in or as good as when they went in.

Speaker 11 So again, the degree to which the candidate skills matter and the degree to which being tested in a way he has been. And even Shapiro, whom I very much respect and the others, really haven't been.

Speaker 11 They just haven't run for national office. Am I right that he's the only one on the list who's run for a national office? I guess that's true.

Speaker 14 Even as running the Pete Fan Club over here at the Bulwark back in 2020, I forgot how close he got to New Hampshire. He only lost to Bernie by 3,900 votes, 1.3%.

Speaker 14 He was in second place in New Hampshire, very close to an Iowa New Hampshire sweep from Pete. There is something to be said for it.

Speaker 14 I always go back to my very first meeting with John Huntsman, God Love Him, in 2012. You know, we were kind of briefing him for what was to come on the media side.
And he said,

Speaker 14 you know, I've dealt with the Utah press. I've dealt with the solids, like city press.
They're pretty tough. I've been through these things to me.
And, you know, and I was like,

Speaker 14 I think it's going to be a little bit different, boss. I think that it's a different animal.

Speaker 14 You know, he, to his credit, I forget what it was, a month later, a couple of weeks later, was like, yeah, okay, you guys were right. I need, I need to run through some more paces here.

Speaker 14 It's just, it is different. And the Pennsylvania governor media environment is much closer to the Utah governor media environment than it is to a vice presidential ticket presidential environment.

Speaker 14 So I think that that is a case for Pete that's worth making.

Speaker 14 That said, the reporting, you know, who knows the credibility of all this sort of stuff, but the reporters who would be in a position to know are indicating that Shapiro and Kelly at Arizona and Walls are the top contenders at the moment.

Speaker 14 Before we move on to Kamala, anything on Kelly?

Speaker 11 No, again, I feel like I personally don't know his candidate skills well enough.

Speaker 11 Shapiro, I just would come back and maybe at the end when you're uncertain, you default to the fact that, you know what, you have to win Pennsylvania. Shapiro won it by 15 points two years ago.

Speaker 14 He has a 61% approval rating in the state.

Speaker 11 61% approval rating. Sometimes you're deceived when you pick a candidate to win a state.
It doesn't quite work out. But actually, people don't usually do it for all the talk about it.

Speaker 11 But if there's any candidate who could win that state, and presumably would do fine in the neighboring, you know, Michigan and Wisconsin, and they are the key at the end of the day, a little more than

Speaker 11 reaching for North Carolina or even Georgia and Arizona. So holding those, which were so narrow in 2020.

Speaker 11 So I guess there's a pretty good case for defaulting to Shapiro, who has real candidate skills and who I do think helps by being a little bit against type on a couple of issues, pro-charter schools.

Speaker 11 I was talking with someone who worked in the Obama administration, very senior. We were joking.
They're like, is that really unacceptable?

Speaker 11 Obama was kind of open to charter schools and his Secretary of Education, Arne Duncan, was actually kind of enthusiastic about them. Are we really like, that's not permissible for a Democrat?

Speaker 11 But I guess the Gaza-Israel stuff is.

Speaker 11 more contentious than nervous about some, you know, how protests at the convention. But I think, I don't think it would hurt Harris.

Speaker 11 And B, it might even help it again by being a little, looking a little distant from the campus left and so forth.

Speaker 14 He's agguided the fracking issue. You just mentioned that.
I think it's worth pointing this out.

Speaker 14 In both of the last two podcasts, Thursday and Friday, I was asking Paul Mieri and

Speaker 14 folks how Harris should respond to this question of the far left position she took during that 2019 primary. And we got a little bit of a preview from it.

Speaker 14 A spokesperson for Harris put out a statement about fracking over the weekend.

Speaker 14 Trump's false claims about fracking bans are an obvious attempt to distract from his own plans to enrich oil and gas executives at the expense of the middle class.

Speaker 14 The Biden-Harris administration passed the largest ever climate change legislation, and under their leadership, America now has the highest ever domestic energy production.

Speaker 14 The administration created 300,000 energy jobs while Trump lost nearly a million. Went on to just say clearly that they don't have any plans to ban fracking.
I kind of like that. I like it.

Speaker 14 I like just being like, no, we're not going to do it. Turning the page.
We'll see how she handles it in an interview setting. Trump lies a lot.
I don't know. We're kind of defining lying down here.

Speaker 14 It wasn't really a lie, though. It was a plan that she had stated in the past.
So the Biden-Harris administration didn't do it. But besides that, I think that's a relatively encouraging statement.

Speaker 11 Yeah, and I would almost be more direct, though, and just say, look, I was running for president.

Speaker 11 That was my view. I've now been vice president for three and a half years.
We've passed A, B, and C.

Speaker 11 I now have decided that fracking, environmentally responsible fracking, however, wants to guard it, is part of a responsible energy policy, which includes a big lot of clean energy.

Speaker 11 And fracking turns out to be kind of clean energy, whatever she wants to say.

Speaker 11 But in other words, use the experience of being vice president as the excuse, to be honest, of moving away from some of these 2019 positions.

Speaker 14 The encouraging thing for me is, again, we haven't seen her yet in a hostile interview setting, so TBD. But on the written statements,

Speaker 14 both on fracking and on the protests, the Gaza protests, the flag burning, you know, outside of Union Station in D.C. last week.
Just clear statements that point to the more consensus position.

Speaker 14 To me, it is a sign that this is, she's in it to win it. I don't know.
They're not messing around. There's no need for BSing with this and

Speaker 14 playing patty cake with the far-left activists on some of this stuff. And there's already enough excitement.

Speaker 14 And I think to me, the excitement for her gives her the cover to put out statements like this. You know, like, right?

Speaker 14 And there is a new pull-out today that the excitement for the Democratic ticket went from like 30-something percent who said they were excited up to 80%.

Speaker 14 Like the enthusiasm gap has been narrowed to nil. You know, there's the TikTok memes.
Young folks are excited. They're having all these calls with people who are excited.
Use that, right?

Speaker 14 Like if you have that excitement built in, you know, you can ride that wave and then kind of tack to appeal to some of the more center-swing voters that are necessary.

Speaker 14 One other opportunity to do this.

Speaker 14 Last night, the Venezuelan pro-government electoral council said that Maduro won re-election with 51% of the vote, despite the fact that exit polls showed his challenger, Edmundo Gonzalez, had won 65% and Maduro had got just 31%.

Speaker 14 So this is not just kind of a close call here where they're fudging along the lines. This is a total steal.
Government police blocked observers from ballot counting.

Speaker 14 Neighboring countries, Chile, Argentina, Colombia, Peru, are refusing to recognize the sham election result.

Speaker 14 Tony Blinken says we have serious concerns that the result announced does not reflect the will or the votes of the Venezuelan people.

Speaker 14 Bill, just any thoughts in the substance of that, but also a potential opportunity for Harris here to take a whack at the commies.

Speaker 11 Yeah, I think she needs to really denounce this maybe a little more strongly than Tony Blinken did. And she's in good company with the neighboring countries in Latin America.

Speaker 11 So she's not, you know, out in some unilateral American kind of trying to overturn an election. She's trying to uphold the voices of the people in Venezuela.

Speaker 11 Maduro has been horrible, obviously, following Chavez. And a lot of Venezuelans have come to the U.S.
and this is not 10,000 miles away, right?

Speaker 11 And they're aware of what Maduro is up to, and others from Central and Latin America are as well. So I think it's a good opportunity for her to be strong, strongly denounce this.

Speaker 11 Exactly what we can do. I don't know.
That's a complicated issue. We just quite have to get into that.

Speaker 14 You know, I agree. And also, maybe tie it to Trump.
You know, I mean, really, Trump has this kind of Codillo-esque vibe to him, right?

Speaker 14 And it's like, look, Trump's trying to turn us into Venezuela, right?

Speaker 14 You know, that the right is going to, I've already seen it on social media, the right is going to say that, like, you know, Kamala Harris is going to turn us into a socialist country like Venezuela and blah, blah, blah, all this nonsense.

Speaker 14 But like, the more realistic comparison is that Trump wants to be Maduro.

Speaker 14 Like, Trump tried to do exactly what he is doing last time, you know, by declaring the, you know, the Insurrection Act and just was not competent enough to do it.

Speaker 14 But who's to say that he wouldn't be able to do it next time?

Speaker 14 And so I think that there is a way to demonstrate strength on foreign policy, take a hit at the socialists and the corruption in Latin America and tie it to Trump. So, right, let's do it.
Let's roll.

Speaker 11 And tie maybe to Trump's buddy Bolsonaro, whom a lot of Trump's closest aides tried to help overturn that election. So you can be anti-Bolsonaro and anti-Maduro and genuinely for democracy.

Speaker 11 And in the course of that, also point out that Trump is kind of closer to those guys than he is to respecting and upholding, you know, a free and fair, maybe not fair entirely in this case, as Maduro is trying to make it unfair, but upholding the will of the people.

Speaker 14 Might also mention that the state in the U.S. is the third most residents from Venezuela, immigrants from Venezuela, Georgia, an important one on the map.
All right, Bill Crystal, thank you so much.

Speaker 14 We'll see you back here next Monday. Everybody else, stick around.
I've got another little bonus segment on the other side.

Speaker 14 All right, we're back. For any pardon, the interruption fans, Tony Reali had an errors and omissions segment at the end.
In my manifesto last week before the A.B.

Speaker 14 Staundard episode, I said I would admit to you when I screwed something up, that is part of my new deal. So I have a couple pieces of feedback that I would like to cover really quick.

Speaker 14 The murder of Sonia Massey was in Springfield, not Chicago. I have no idea where I got Chicago from.
I was just writing it down in my notes. Still a horrific murder.

Speaker 14 Still something we should be talking about.

Speaker 14 I should have also mentioned at the time that the sheriff's deputy that killed her in her own kitchen when she was just holding a pot of boiling water has been charged with that murder.

Speaker 14 So, you know, maybe some of the political salience is different. As somebody was born in St.
Louis, I recognize that Springfield and Chicago aren't particularly close. But, you know, I do think that

Speaker 14 the criminal justice issues, as we discussed in this episode, related to Minnesota Freedom Fund, related to George Floyd, we're in Chicago. We'll

Speaker 14 about a month following this horrible murder of an innocent black woman. You know, all of that will be certainly in the stew up in Chicago.
A second foul-up, this was Ezra Klein's follow-up, and

Speaker 14 I'm apologizing on his behalf. My request to him was recommend a book to me that will allow me to not think about this political world for a while.
I need an escape.

Speaker 14 He recommended Health and Safety by Emily Witt, which is not out yet. It's out in September.
You can pre-order. Book was great.
Emily Witt writes for the New Yorker. She's awesome.

Speaker 14 But I got to tell you, it's not an escape. First third of the book's about doing drugs.
That was a nice escape.

Speaker 14 The second part of it is about like George Floyd and COVID and a relationship breaking down during the Trump era. I'm going, Ezra.
I needed a real escape.

Speaker 14 I need something, you know, I need like a book about a coming of age story in the 1700s. You know, I need like, you know, young Mozart.

Speaker 14 Like, give me, give me something totally different, totally away. Anyway, health and safety, I still recommend, but not if you're looking for an escape from politics.
In quoting that same A.B.

Speaker 14 Soundard episode, I used one of my favorite quotes from the office space. Let's talk about what it is that you do here, I referenced.
And I said, that's from my favorite Bob from The Office.

Speaker 14 Well, as it turns out, the Bob who didn't say that line is a Bulwark Super fan, and he was hurt. So I want to say, hey, Bob.
We appreciate you. We honor all Bobs.

Speaker 14 And that was a double follow-up as I was obviously referencing office space, not the office. And I did not intend to rank the Bobs.
I'm just saying our favorite Bobs. We love the Bobs.

Speaker 14 So we appreciate you. Thank you for listening.
Lastly, on the internet, people are mad at me. You ready?

Speaker 14 People are mad at me for saying that Kamala's campaign made one mistake in her opening ad, and it was featuring a kid wearing a mask.

Speaker 14 And I said that having people in masks in B-roll, you know, kind of salts the vibes was the word that I used.

Speaker 14 I said that it kind of brings people back to the COVID period that they want to forget in their minds.

Speaker 14 Some people are upset at me about that because either maybe they have autoimmune disease or some other respiratory illness. Some people dislike wearing the mask, want to protect themselves.

Speaker 14 And I just say to all of you, I appreciate that. You should wear your mask.

Speaker 14 If you have an autoimmune disease, I'm not saying that you should not, you know, when you're in airports and you're in public spaces where you're wherever you want to feel safe, wherever you want to have health and safety, if you want to wear that mask, that is great.

Speaker 14 I support you. I do not want to erase you from society.
I do not want to make any laws infringing on your rights. I'm not Ron DeSantis over here.
But advertising is advertising.

Speaker 14 And sometimes you've got to be a little strategic on all this stuff.

Speaker 14 And if Kamala's message is, we're not going back, we're going forward, we're trying to churn the chapter from this Trump era and all these vicious battles that we've had, these cultural fault lines that have developed.

Speaker 14 Yeah, well, we don't need to remind people of them. And, you know, I'll tell you this.

Speaker 14 If Kamala was running ads on Fox News in Georgia, talking about how Trump is bad, trying to reach evangelical voters, maybe talking about how Trump's on his third wife, how Trump sexually assaulted people, if they had B-roll of men kissing in that ad, I'd say that's probably a mistake.

Speaker 14 Don't do that. I like to kiss men.
I wish everyone liked to watch men kissing men. They don't, you know?

Speaker 14 So sometimes you just got to make strategic choices in advertising for the best of the campaign. That's what we're here to talk about.

Speaker 14 I love and appreciate everybody, no matter what your masking policy is.

Speaker 14 Like I said, I don't love and appreciate everybody. I don't love and appreciate Donald Trump and the Donald Trump family.
But, you know, I appreciate you if you're listening.

Speaker 14 Thank you for your feedback. Continue to send it.
I'm going to do my best to make sure you're just getting the straight facts here.

Speaker 14 We'll see you back here tomorrow with another edition of the Bowler podcast. Look forward to it.
Peace.

Speaker 20 So, if you would, would you walk us through a typical day for you?

Speaker 14 Well,

Speaker 20 I generally come in at least 15 minutes late.

Speaker 20 I use the side door. That way Lumber can't see me.

Speaker 20 And

Speaker 20 after that, I just sort of space out for about an hour.

Speaker 14 Space out?

Speaker 14 Yeah.

Speaker 20 I just stare at my desk.

Speaker 14 But it looks like I'm working.

Speaker 14 Damn, it feels good to be a gangster. Getting voted into the White House.
Everything looking good to the people of the world, but the Morphe family is my boss.

Speaker 14 So every now and then I hold a favor here and there, like letting a big drug ship me through. And send them to the poor community.

Speaker 14 So we can bust, you know, who.

Speaker 14 The voters of the world keep supporting me. And I promise to take you very far.
Other pleasure not upset me. Or I'll send a million troops to die at war.

Speaker 14 To all you Republican kins that help me to win, I sincerely like to thank you. Cause now I got the whirlswing from my misconception.
And damn, it feels good to be a gangster.

Speaker 14 The Bullard Podcast is produced by Katie Cooper with audio engineering and editing by Jason Brown.

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