Erin accepts that death caps were in the lunch

Hi, Jules and Jez here, and every week on Not Stupid, we unpack the news of the week.

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how does someone develop a moose obsession?

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Today, in the witness box, Erin Patterson was asked, Do you accept there must have been death cat mushrooms in the meal?

Her answer?

Yes.

I'm ABC Investigative Reporter Rachel Brown.

And I'm Stephen Stockwell.

It is Tuesday, the 3rd of June.

We've just finished the 24th day of this trial.

There's a content and language warning on this episode.

Welcome to Mushroom Case Daily.

The small town mystery that's gripped the nation and made headlines around the world.

On the menu was Beef Wellington, a pastry filled with beef and a pate made of mushrooms.

At the heart of this case will be the jury's interpretation of Erin Patterson's intentions.

Erin Patterson has strongly maintained her innocence.

It's a tragedy what happened.

I loved them.

We've now been making Mushroom Case Daily for five, six weeks at this point.

You may be wondering where Christian Silver has disappeared to.

Wonderful news.

Christian has gone to become a father if you missed Friday's episode.

Never fear, though.

We are joined by the outstanding Rachel Brown, ABC investigative reporter.

Rach has been in court with us this whole time through the trial, through this podcast.

And on Rach's second day hosting Mushroom Case Daily, we have seen the second day of Aaron Patterson's evidence.

Rach, before we kind of dive into it and pull it apart in all the various angles, can you give give us an overview of what we heard in court?

Stocky, we kicked off the day with Erin Patterson's financial position, generous loans that she gave to the siblings of her then husband, Simon Patterson, gave a few of them 400K each.

Then we heard a lot about health, so her health concerns, her playing Dr.

Google, issues with her children that ended up breeding a distrust of the medical profession, and then issues about weight gain and self-esteem.

We then moved on to disputes that she had with Simon, things like child support payments and issues about her feeling left out of family parties and things like that.

And then we heard who she vented all that to, her Facebook friends, because she said it was either that or sheep in the paddock.

At the end of the day, and this is where the robber meets the road, she says she did have an interest in foraging.

Thank you, Rach.

Things got really interesting this afternoon in court.

This is a trial that revolves around a meal that was served to four people in late July 2023, a meal featuring mushrooms.

This is a podcast called Mushroom Case Daily.

This afternoon, right at the end of the day, we heard Erin Patterson tell the court that she accepts that there were death cat mushrooms in the meal she served.

Where did she say those mushrooms came from?

So she mentioned two sources, mushrooms from Woolies that we've heard a lot about, button mushrooms that she bought in the week before the lunch.

She also mentioned buying dried mushrooms in April of 2023 from an Asian grocer somewhere in Melbourne.

So we've heard a lot about a potential Asian grocer in Glen Waverley.

And then the conversation moved on to a dehydrator that she bought in April 2023.

And foraging, and this is a point that came up towards the second half of the day.

We started learning from Erin Patterson that she had a keen interest in mushrooms and it seemed to be something that she was doing kind of around her house in her local area right

so Erin Patterson told the court that her interest in picking mushrooms started during the COVID period in 2020 when everyone was bored out of their brain that's my words not hers but she said you know when we were allowed out for an hour a day she would go on a walk with the children and she mentioned places that she'd walk like the botanic gardens in Corranborough

she said she'd notice mushrooms on her property first in Corranborough and then at the property she had in Lee and Gather.

And then she also mentioned the rail trail that leads out of Lee and Gather.

You can often find mushrooms along that trail.

And she said she loves mushrooms.

They taste good.

They're very healthy.

She said she just developed an interest in trying all different kinds from Woolies,

farmers' markets.

That led her to start buying from Asian grocers.

And she had a place in...

like a Melbourne bolt hole in Glen Waverley.

So she'd often buy, she said, from Asian grocers there.

And she said she'd use them in things like curries or pasta dishes or soups.

What kinds of mushrooms are we talking here?

She said she mainly picked field and horse mushrooms, that they were found at the Shelcott Road property.

And that, if you'd remember, was in Corranborough.

So that was before she moved to Lee and Gather.

I mean, I didn't remember that, but thank you for clarifying.

And she said there was a couple of other interesting ones that she saw at the Corranborough Botanic Gardens.

But then she mentioned ones like slippery jacks and honey mushrooms, which she said are very very nice to eat.

She was talking at one point, I think it was the Shelcott Roadhouse, so you might have to correct me here, but she was walking around, it sounded like a decent-sized property, right?

I think it was a couple of hectares.

And she's walking around some of the paddocks, and she starts finding these ones.

And the ones that I remember hearing about were these like field mushrooms and horse mushrooms, I think.

That's right.

And then, so, but there was a paddock out the back of the Gibson Street place, which was the place of the lunch.

Okay.

And she said she mainly picked field mushrooms there.

This was around the April 2023 time.

But she said said there was another type up the back that weren't field mushrooms.

But she said, look, I couldn't figure out what they were, so I didn't eat any of them.

Yeah, right.

And there was also conversation, this was, you know, I think slightly earlier in the day.

And, you know, we've been talking a lot about, obviously, the dangers of mushrooms in this trial.

And, you know, as Erin is developing this interest, she says, in foraging,

she is.

trying some of these mushrooms.

She's foraging mushrooms and she's cooking up, I think at one point, like slicing a bit off, chucking it in a pan with some butter, right?

Yeah.

But first she'd go on certain sites to ask or to try to find out if they were safe, she says.

Wait for that information back.

And then if it looked like they were safe, yeah, she'd throw them in some butter and slice a little bit off and try it out.

The exchange around her trying this for the first time, I think she said something like, you know, they tasted good and I didn't get sick after trying one of the forage mushrooms

for the first time.

Was it just her that was eating them?

So initially, I think, yes, she was trying them and, you know, if she saw the same ones, she'd pick them and eat them.

She said there were lots of them in autumn going into winter.

And then she said, I put them in meals that we all ate.

She mentioned the children and she said that she chopped them up very small so that they couldn't pick them out.

Now, at this point, Dr.

Nanette Rogers jumped up.

from the prosecution and said, Your Honor, there's an issue that I'd like to discuss in the absence of the jury.

So the jury stood up, filed out, and then we went into legal argument that lasted way beyond lunchtime and we didn't see the jury again until 4 p.m.

Yeah, right.

And

we also, in the conversations around the mushrooms, I want to talk about some other stuff as well, but before I move on, you know, we heard a lot about the dehydrator.

We started talking about Erin's habits with the dehydrator and some of the mushrooms that she says she was foraging.

So she bought a dehydrator in April 2023.

She said, for a few reasons, I liked eating them.

They have a very small, short season.

So they don't last too long in the fridge.

So if you want to keep them, you essentially have to dehydrate them.

It's actually something we heard from Dr.

Tom May.

Funny Tom.

Yeah, earlier on in the trial saying that foraged mushrooms don't tend to last long, mostly because they've got a lot of insects on them.

Sorry.

So that is one way to have them available for later in the year.

You dehydrate them.

So she buys a dehydrator and uses them for a whole range of things, like the meals that I mentioned earlier.

We've seen some photos during this trial of mushrooms lying on a dehydrator,

also on digital scales near a dehydrator.

She was just really interested.

She was doing lots of experiments with them.

One lot she said she tried.

They stayed quite mushy, like she felt like not enough moisture had come out of them.

That wasn't such a good batch.

So she was experimenting with how long they needed to dry, what volumes they needed to be dried in, or what sizes and things things like that.

So we learnt about that, but we also learnt about where she would keep them.

And what the courts heard is what she usually does with these dehydrated mushrooms is that she puts them in a Tupperware container in the pantry.

So sometimes she'd already have a container going with woolies mushrooms, things like that.

If not, she'd start a new one.

Right, okay.

And

this kind of...

We had a sort of like a worlds colliding moment almost here because we heard with from Colin Mandy, he starts asking Aaron, okay, so you know, these Asian grocer mushrooms that you've told us about,

where did they go?

Same deal.

So she buys them in April 2023 when she's at her house in Glen Waverly.

She opens them and she said they smelt a bit pungent and wouldn't, she didn't think they would have been appropriate in the meal that she'd picked them for.

So she put them in a Tupperware container.

That was at the house in Glen Waverly.

That Tupperware container gets moved to the pantry in Lee and Gatha.

And so as far as we know,

she's got a whole range of mushrooms in Tupperware containers in Lee and Gatha.

And so Colin Mandy put to her, well,

were you putting wild mushrooms that you dehydrated in May or June 2023 into a container that already contained other dried mushrooms?

And she said, yes, I did.

Right.

And that stocky is how we finished the day.

Yeah, right.

Okay.

I want to go back to a few things we heard earlier in the day.

I mean, particularly, you know, if we're kind of finishing with this moment of drying mushrooms, we saw again today messages that she had with Facebook friends talking about how, you know, talking about getting this dehydrator, how she was really enjoying the fact you'd take out like 90% of the

weight of mushrooms when you buy them, when you dehydrate the ones from Willie's, asking if she could take it in there, potentially.

That's one of the kind of the funnier ones that we heard from the Facebook group.

We also got back into some messages that were

really quite disparaging around the Patterson family.

Now, this is Erin Patterson's in-laws.

This is coming at a time where she does not have a great relationship with her estranged husband, Simon.

And she's basically sending these messages, language wanting on this, consisting of stuff like, this fucking family.

And this was put to Erin today.

She was asked about these messages.

And it was a moment that brought her to tears.

Yeah, quite...

This would be quite an awkward thing to be pressed on.

And she did look very uncomfortable.

We've heard about some of these text messages before in this podcast.

I'll read you a couple that have really stuck with me.

So one of the big ones, and this is around the time, just to remind everyone, that

there was a dispute over child support payments.

So all this time, Erin and Simon, her now-estranged husband, they'd been sharing payments for their two children.

You know, even though they were separated, you know, she was putting his income down on her tax return.

She wasn't applying for some of the benefits that you could apply for if you were separated.

They were just going through the motions, doing things how they'd always done it.

So this comes to a point at the end of 2022.

He says on his tax return that he's separated, which has tax implications for Erin.

So that's the context of all of this.

And she was frustrated

because

she was frustrated that Don and Gail refused to adjudicate.

in all of this because it got to a point that the child support payments which was something like $40 a month now both children are going to private schools one had just had surgery so she reached out to Simon to ask him to help with the surgeon's bill.

And he said, oh, no, no, no, no.

Government says this is exactly the type of thing that I shouldn't pay for.

And just for some context, Don and Gail are Simon's parents.

So these are Erin's in-laws.

Yes.

And so she asks them, look, can you...

She basically asks them to step in.

And when they refuse to, when they refuse to adjudicate, she gets frustrated.

So she's telling her Facebook friends things like this.

This is a message, Facebook message.

Simon's dad contacted me this morning to say that he and Gail had tried to talk to Simon about the matters I raised and to get his side, but he refused to talk about it other than that to signal he disagreed with what I said.

Beyond that, he won't talk about it.

So Don said they can't adjudicate if they don't know both sides and Simon won't give his side.

So he said all he can do is ask Simon and I to get together to pray for the children.

Emoji, emoji, this family, and just a language warning here.

I swear to fucking God.

Why did we see such a strong reaction from Erin when that's read out?

Well imagine hearing that back.

Remember I said to you a few weeks ago, imagine if someone just went through your phone now and read out messages from any time period.

I think she felt ashamed.

She told the court she felt ashamed.

She started shaking her head before she even started speaking and said, I wish I never said that.

I'm ashamed for saying it.

And I wish the family didn't have to hear.

I said that.

They didn't deserve it.

And she explained to the court that this chat, this Facebook chat group had been going on for four years.

So to her, it was a safe space.

She said, I felt heard, I felt validated.

I knew they'd latch on and support me like a cheer squad.

You know, and I think that's something that she didn't feel like she had at that time.

Yeah, it didn't sound like she really had anyone that she could kind of share this stuff with, right?

Well, his in-laws, she said she'd always had a good relationship with, and now she probably feels a bit cut off, a bit of an island.

I'll just read you another one.

She says, nobody bloody listens to me.

At least I know they're a lost cause.

I'm sick of this shit.

I want nothing to do with them.

I thought his parents would want him to do the right thing, but it seems their concern about not wanting to feel uncomfortable and not wanting to get involved in their son's personal matters are overriding that.

So, and a language warning here again, so fuck them.

So she says she looked incredibly embarrassed when these messages were getting read back out.

She said to the court that she needed to vent this frustration because Otherwise, it was go into the paddock and tell the sheep.

Right.

You know, or vent to these women.

She says, I regret the language I used, but I knew they'd rally around me.

And I did play up a little bit to get that support.

She was asked if she meant these things.

And this is when today she really started crying.

I noticed like this was the lowest point for her of today's evidence.

She said, no, I didn't.

She barely got those words out.

She said, I was frustrated with Simon, but not Don and Gail.

It's not their fault or the family's fault.

And then she said, it's not entirely Simon's fault either.

I played a part part too.

And she said, in hindsight, she thought back about this.

And she said, I thought I was right and he was wrong, but it was wrong to involve Don and Gail.

And I should have approached it differently.

Yeah.

One of the things I kind of stuck with me today, we started hearing a bit more about Erin Patterson's financial situation.

She had quite a bit of money going around.

She inherited money from her grandmother who passed away.

I think it was like mid to late 2000s,

had a lot of commercial properties that the kind of money came in from over a period of several years as the kind of like the assets were sort of sold off and distributed amongst the beneficiaries, beneficiaries of that.

And

she talked about how, you know, she was very generous with this money, seemingly in a way to kind of maintain this relationship with Simon.

Yeah, not just the grandmother's money.

So her mother died in 2019, and she inherited half of that money between her and her sister.

And that went into properties, the block in Lee and Gather that she ended up building on, and a house in Mount Waverly.

Now, both those properties she put in Simon's name.

And she was asked, why would you do that?

You'd been separated for four years.

And she said, well, I always thought that we would bring the family back together.

And that's what I always wanted.

And so to her, that was a way of demonstrating that to Simon, that she still saw a future.

for them together.

And then she was also very generous to his siblings.

So his three siblings, she says she gave them loans of around 400K that they could choose when to pay back and how much and only pay back with inflation, so no interest.

Yeah, yeah.

When Simon and Erin separated, they kind of just sort of put all the assets down on a bit of paper.

And this literally, it sounded like they got a bit of paper and they wrote down all the things they had, the various assets, the houses, the money, and Erin and Simon just split it right down the middle.

No lawyers, no one else.

Most couples that I've spoken to going through divorces, they would think that that's insane.

But this is what they did.

And I don't think money was a big issue for them.

You know, it wasn't a matter of conflict up until the dispute over child support.

Yeah.

That did seem to kind of get resolved a bit though, right?

It did.

By the end of 2020, it sounds like that was resolved.

She went on a holiday to New Zealand.

She was watching her children do this luge.

like toboggan and she said she had really nice memories of family holidays that she'd spent together with simon so she messaged him videos of the kids going down the luge and she just said, oh, it was my, it was kind of like a bit of an olive branch and her trying to get communication back on track.

So that was at the end of 2022.

You mentioned Aaron Patterson's mother earlier, briefly spoke about Aaron's parents in yesterday's episode talking about how they didn't go to her wedding, her and Simon's wedding, because they were on a train in Russia on a holiday, in Aaron's words.

Today, you know, the financial stuff was interesting, but the thing that really stuck with me was just kind of her experience growing up, because it didn't sound like a a particularly healthy one.

Yeah I mean certainly the inheritance helped financially but emotionally we've only heard these two big clangers which is not being there at the wedding and then what we learned today which is Erin Patterson told the court that she had body image issues and I should say before I continue a bit of a content warning this touches on eating disorders what I'm about to say.

Erin Patterson told the court that she's had these issues since she was a teenager and she said my mum used to weigh me every every week to make sure I wasn't putting on too much weight.

And she said she did that with her sister as well.

And so Erin said, and she used her arms to explain, like lifted them out beside her.

And she said, I went from this extreme of barely eating to the other end of the spectrum in adulthood and going the other way, you know, and binging.

And she said, I've never had a healthy relationship with food.

And that's when she starts struggling again in the witness box.

If this evidence of the discussion of body image is challenging for you, you can access the Butterfly Foundation.

They're online, so you can search for them.

There's a web chat, also a phone number, 1-800-334673.

And as Erin's talking through these body image issues, you know, this is something that's continued into adulthood.

Yeah, and what really got me from today's evidence is that she said nobody knew.

And then she looked up.

She said, well, everybody knows now, but nobody knew then.

And she dabbed at her eyes with the tissue.

So that was another big moment of her life just being laid bare to the world But she was asked how often this happened that she would eat and Bring it back up again.

Yeah

and she said look leading into July 2023 It was maybe happening, you know, two to three times a week, maybe more

earlier in the day Rach there was this conversation again while we're kind of on this sort of like medical issues.

We heard, you know, we heard a bit of this yesterday, her skepticism of doctors and medical professionals following the birth of her son in 2009.

Today, we heard more stories that kind of

help explain, I suppose, Erin Patterson's scepticism and reluctance to engage with medical professionals.

We did.

First, we learned about a mass that was discovered on the stomach of her daughter.

And she said no one really believed her, but she was giving her daughter massages because she thought she was in a lot of pain.

She was crying a lot.

Erin said to Simon, her husband at the time, we have to take her to hospital.

And she said, they still dismissed me.

And she said, it was hard enough to get her in the first place, as in for her to be born.

And her voice wavered when she said, I didn't want to lose her.

And so an ovarian mass was found when her daughter was about eight months old.

So it looks like she carries that.

still that no one believed her even though she was trying to tell them I know what I can feel.

That's with the daughter.

And then there was another issue with the daughter, which I won't go into.

And then one with her son that after he'd had an accident, they x-rayed the wrong side of his body.

And she's there kind of going, hang on a second, I think you're doing this wrong.

Correct.

And these doctors are like, no, no,

you don't know what you're talking about.

We know what we're doing.

So because of that, she starts to develop a distrust of medical professionals.

And this goes to perhaps why she discharged herself on the 31st of July.

We've heard a lot about that story.

She rocks up at Lee and Gatha Hospital.

She's told she has to be admitted and she discharges herself.

And we've heard from the medical staff thinking, this is crazy.

You know,

everyone else from the lunch is sick.

Why would you go home?

So that feeds into some of that.

It also back then fed into a lot of concerns she had about her own health.

We heard a lot about her using Dr.

Google, which we all know this isn't advised.

But things like, you know,

she told the court she was never diagnosed with ovarian cancer.

Now, this is important because the issue of cancer was raised at the lunch.

We've heard it was potentially the purpose for the lunch so she could work out, you know, with...

her in-laws how to tell the kids if there was something wrong with her.

She suspected there might be.

It seems like Erin Patterson has a pattern from what she told the court of thinking there might be something wrong with her.

So she's often worried about cervical cancer, she said.

She's had in the past fatigue, abdominal pain, headaches, put a lot of weight on in a short period of time.

She gave an example of going to have her rings resized because her fingers had got bigger.

And in the two weeks after getting it resized, it already didn't fit.

And she said, I do have a history of ovarian cancer in the family on both sides.

And then you'll remember that her daughter had the ovarian mass, as we've just spoken about when she was eight months old.

So there's all that playing in her head.

And so she'd often Google things and what symptoms might lead to other things.

She once convinced herself she had a brain tumor.

So it sounds like she was often very worried about what she may or may not have.

Yeah.

Rach, thank you so much for taking us through what was a really full day of evidence from Erin Patterson sitting in the witness box today.

Before we get to questions, I mean, you've been in the court so many days of this trial.

You've been with us here with Mushroom Case Daily since the trial started.

And

I was just wondering, I mean, you've been in that room.

Has the tone or the vibe in the courtroom changed with Erin in the witness box?

There is a different feeling in there.

There's a different

level of tension, I would say.

It's always very quiet when Erin Patterson is speaking.

It's a lot harder to get in the courtroom.

Okay.

There's a lot of interest in this court case, Docie.

And when you and I first started this case, which feels like 30 weeks ago, but it was, what, six?

Five and a big

half.

There wasn't any lines.

But now a line starts building outside court from about 6 a.m.

People wait to be led into the court at 9 a.m.

and then they line up outside the courtroom itself.

So it's much harder to get a seat.

The other interesting thing I've noticed is Erin Patterson used to sit behind us, used to sit behind the media.

So there used to be a lot of...

craning around of necks, people trying to see, but now she's in right in front of us in the witness box.

Yeah, the um, the courtroom in Morwell, the media seats are kind of on the left-hand side of that room, um, you know, just in front of the dock, and then the witness box is on the left-hand side of the room as well.

So, she's sitting or sitting basically directly in front of where you've been sitting today.

Physiobilles have gone down, there's not as much rubbernecking, but it has the tone has changed.

Yep, definitely.

We have been getting so many questions from people listening to Mushroom Case Daily.

The email address is mushroomcased daily at abc.net.au.

We love hearing from you.

There are so many incredible insights, so much great feedback, so many great questions.

Rachel, I want to start today with a question from Marty.

Marty is from Fish Creek in South Gippsland.

Hello, neighbour.

Marty is loving the content.

Thank you all.

Thank you, Marty.

And Marty's question is, how much warning did the prosecution have that Erin was going to take the stand?

Were they aware she would be called by the defence witness, by the defence as a witness prior to the court case starting?

Were they surprised yesterday, like everyone else in the court?

I wouldn't say surprised, but I think they would have always had to bank on the fact that she could be called.

So it would have to be prepared just in case.

Like the rest of us, we don't know.

We don't know whether the defence would call Erin Patterson or not.

No adverse findings.

If it doesn't, that's a strategic decision that it has to take.

But I did notice the days before Erin Patterson was called that Dr.

Nanette Rogers hadn't been in court for those couple of days.

So we were all wondering whether she's prepping for another witness or prepping for the main event.

Great.

Thank you, Rach.

Thank you, Marty.

Another question here from Karen.

G'daim.

I'm wondering why the court allows the defence to ask all these background questions about Erin's life that seem a bit irrelevant to the facts surrounding the day of the mushroom lunch.

Karen, I think it just sets the scene and her behaviour and her background and because of the people involved at the lunch.

you know, and the potential issues about intention that the jurors will have to address, it needs to know the relationship which she had with certain people, any changes in that relationship.

You know, I think her background is important because our backgrounds for all of us lead us to where we are today and why we do or don't do the things we do.

So I do think it's important for context.

Yeah.

And also I think, you know, there's so much we don't know where the prosecution and the defence are often going with some evidence.

You know, we'll find out kind of those exact things in their closings, right?

Yes, I think, you know, a lot of us like things being tied up with neat bows, but I've noticed some seeding being done.

Like today, you get to a certain point, I expect to hear something else, and then we move on to a different topic.

So again, that strategy, certain things will be seeded,

and it will all go towards, hopefully,

a very neat closing from both the defence and prosecution that might answer a lot of the questions that we don't feel have been answered yet.

Thank you, Rach.

Thank you, Karen.

A great reason to listen to Mushroom Case Daily every single day.

So you can, you know, when the trail of breadcrumbs is revealed, you can say to your friends in the group chat, oh, well, that's what Rachel was saying on Mushroom Case Daily.

Final question here from Renat listening from Greece.

Renat says, love the podcast.

Thank you for the intelligent, in-depth coverage.

Thanks, Renat.

That was it.

Just wanted to read that.

No, I'm kidding.

Renat has a question.

Renat was wondering if it's possible for the defense to recall a witness to the stand.

For example, Simon Patterson.

What if new testimony comes up that requires his response or a witness mentions something on the stand that only he can refute or corroborate?

Interesting question.

I think it is, but it would have very good reason to do so because, as you know, all the witnesses so far have been prosecution ones.

And now we're in the defence case.

The prosecution has closed its case.

So I think you'd have to have good reason to call someone back because Colin Mandier C has had this opportunity already in cross-examination.

So I'll need to study up on that, Renat, but I think possibly, but it would only have to be done with very good reason.

Great.

Thank you, Rach.

Thank you, Renat.

Thank you for listening to Mushroom Case Daily.

We will be back in your feed tomorrow.

If you want to get

the first drop of Mushroom Case Daily, the first squeeze, if you will, you grab yourself the ABC Listen app.

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If you have a question for us, please get in touch.

Mushroomcase Daily at abc.net.au.

Rach, tomorrow, am I right in assuming more?

Aaron Patterson.

You are right.

Can't wait to hear what we learn learn tomorrow.

Absolutely.

And as soon as court wraps up, we'll be back in your feed with another rep.

Mushroom Case Daily is produced by ABC Audio Studios and ABC News.

It's presented by me, investigative reporter Rachel Brown and producer Stephen Stockwell.

Our executive producer is Claire Rawlinson and huge thanks to court reporter Christian Silver and our true crime colleagues who continue to help us out.

Our commissioning executive producer Tim Roxborough, supervising producer Yasmin Parry.

This episode was produced on the land of the Ghanai-Kurnai people.

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