Debates From the Archive - Charlie on Abortion

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Speaker 2 Hello, Mr. Kirk.
I'm Cody. I love what you do.
I think you're an awesome person. I love that you're here today.
I think everyone here should give him a round of applause for being here today.

Speaker 1 Super awesome individual.

Speaker 2 As you see, I'm wearing a mag hat.

Speaker 2 You probably know who I'm voting for in this election cycle, but something you preach and a lot of what you say is interpersonal wisdom and being able to come to your own decision on things, which you and I very much agree on.

Speaker 2 Something I want to clarify your stance on with regards to like abortion rights, for example, is over, it's around 75% of Americans believe that in a case of rape or incest, that women should have the reproductive rights and be able to choose in what they do with a child, which obviously is really sad with regards to those circumstances.

Speaker 2 But I wanted to know what are your thoughts on that.

Speaker 2 Should a woman who is forced into a case of rape or incest and impregnated like unwholesome and like in a terrible situation, should they be forced to have the child?

Speaker 2 Or do you think they should have their own reproductive rights?

Speaker 1 Okay, yeah, my stance is really clear is that human rights don't stop based on the method of how they're conceived.

Speaker 1 And I have to say, first and foremost, no one wishes rape upon anybody or incest that's terrible and awful and evil and tragic.

Speaker 1 And the rapists themselves should be castrated and probably given the death penalty. Just to give me, just to set the

Speaker 1 table on my belief. But if I were to tell you as a thought experiment, Somebody in this audience was conceived in rape.
Who is it?

Speaker 2 Good question. One out of 200 people, roughly, with regards to the statistics.
It's somewhere from one half to one percent of those.

Speaker 1 So that means that there's a couple people in this audience that were conceived in rape. Do they get less human rights because they were conceived in rape?

Speaker 2 Of course not. And where, generally speaking, my question lies is:

Speaker 2 does it lie within regards to the woman? Because I think we can both agree that a woman, it takes a lot of toll on their body. Their body changes forever after pregnancy.

Speaker 2 And should the woman have the choice to be able to, you know, go through with an abortion in the first trimester?

Speaker 1 You You can imagine my answer.

Speaker 1 The argument you made is the best argument for why termination should potentially be an option.

Speaker 1 However, I don't believe it should be because human rights do not stop based on the method of how somebody is conceived. It is an unpopular view that I have, but I must be consistent.

Speaker 1 And I'll make one other thought experiment here. People can disagree.
I have an ultrasound here and an ultrasound here. The first ultrasound is a loving couple that wanted to have the baby.

Speaker 1 The other ultrasound is from rape. Which one is which?

Speaker 1 You can't tell the difference because they're both human and they both deserve human rights. And so I would not use the language force a woman to bring it to term.

Speaker 1 However, in the term of rape, that is probably unfortunately the right term because she did not invite that in her when the other circumstances there was a voluntary decision.

Speaker 1 But we, again, you have to be consistent in the application of justice, and that includes in prenatal justice and prenatal care, which is obviously what happens when a baby is in utero.

Speaker 1 And when you apply human rights, you don't get to choose whether or not the human gets rights, whether or not how that baby actually came into the world.

Speaker 1 Okay, do you want to ask a follow-up once you're done?

Speaker 2 Okay, so something, another thing you preach, and Grant, I've been following you for a long time, you're an awesome person, is that men should be able to shepherd and protect the women in their lives, you know?

Speaker 2 I want to ask you a kind of difficult question. If your wife, unfortunately, was attacked in some sort of way, incestuous, or was raped, would you ask her to go through with that pregnancy?

Speaker 1 I mean, I've already answered that publicly. In fact, it was even more graphic.
They said my 10-year-old daughter, which is, you know, even more graphic.

Speaker 1 And again, this is a personal private decision that I will say, in our family, we believe that under no circumstances, unless absolutely vet by multiple doctors, medical necessary, would abortion ever happen.

Speaker 1 That is our own family's values, right? And again, God forbid that it would ever happen to a woman in my life, right?

Speaker 1 But again, my family's values is that when we look at a baby on the ultrasound, that is a baby that we are tasked to

Speaker 1 look after and to grow and to shepherd.

Speaker 1 um and so yes to be consistent that is how we would treat it and the alternative would be then we would do what i think is termination or murder which i would not be able to live with in that circumstance again these are very heavy and personal issues and again that's our own family personal perspective on that very complicated issue yeah no i understand so yeah where i disagree personally is with regards to i would feel i would fail as leopard protector as a shepherd of my future girlfriend if something happened to her and i don't know like morally how I would feel, you know, putting another human on this earth, you know, that is, you know, part of that's not me.

Speaker 2 I understand they have human rights, and I love, you know, the conception of life as much as you do.

Speaker 2 But you have that person who has all the same human rights as someone else, but they could have been conceived in a way in which that was not loving, you know, as an evangelical Christian.

Speaker 1 And again, but

Speaker 1 the method of how the baby is conceived is not...

Speaker 1 It's not determinative of the value or the rights that the baby gets, right? The baby still will eventually have free speech rights, Fourth Amendment rights, rights to voting.

Speaker 1 Therefore, it also has a right to life. And so, again, we must be equally consistent in how we apply it.
And in that case, in that instant, most Americans disagree with me.

Speaker 1 That's fine, but it is still a human being. It is a life.

Speaker 1 And again, this is where the spiritual element comes in.

Speaker 1 Is that baby made in the image of God or not? It is.

Speaker 1 And therefore, if it's made in the image of God, therefore we have a moral obligation, not just a moral right, to protect that baby from termination. Okay.

Speaker 1 So, thank you. Thank you.
Appreciate it.

Speaker 1 Yeah, of course, yeah. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 3 I appreciate your videos I've been watching recently about how college should be thinking about what is good, what is beautiful, things like that. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 3 And I'm actually a pro-life, and I want to ask you about your stance on that portion of

Speaker 3 your ideas. So specifically when talking about birth control, some of birth control can cause abortions, right, with hormonal birth control, correct?

Speaker 1 Yes, it can, but it's a little more nuanced than that because it doesn't technically, it prevents a a fertilized egg from attaching to the uterine wall.

Speaker 1 It does not terminate a fertilized egg that's already attached to a uterine wall by preventing the release of progesterone. That's true.
So, so

Speaker 1 yes, I just want to be clear. It's not technically classified an abortifacient.
I'm not making an excuse for hormonal birth control.

Speaker 1 I just want to be very clear that just because you're taking hormonal birth control does not mean that you're necessarily enacting an abortion. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3 I guess. Wouldn't that still cause that fertilized egg, that baby, to die?

Speaker 1 Yeah, it can, yes.

Speaker 1 But the distinction is also,

Speaker 1 it's important to know this. The distinction is you don't know if it has attached to the wall, if that makes sense.
So you don't know if

Speaker 1 you're pregnant, because you're technically not pregnant until it attaches to the wall.

Speaker 1 But yes,

Speaker 1 what is your question on hormonal control?

Speaker 3 Do you think hormonal birth control should, we should stop using that because of that possibility?

Speaker 1 I've decided to no longer have strong opinions on this topic because I've got a lot of people angry. I will say this,

Speaker 1 which is very rare.

Speaker 1 Young ladies should read the peer-reviewed literature by Democrats, liberals, and many other people that show how...

Speaker 1 let's just say damaging hormonal birth control is to a female's brain and body. That's not my opinion.
Other people should look at it. When I talk about it, I get ravaged.

Speaker 1 And I understand, I actually believe in male-female distinctions. So actually, I'll never take birth control, so I should be careful kind of venturing into that lane, right?

Speaker 1 So I think those distinctions actually matter. Everyone should make their own decision.

Speaker 1 But if you look at just the warning pamphlet that is associated when a young lady is prescribed hormonal birth control, it is it's like it's like a map of the world.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's all, it is, it is paragraph, you guys know what I'm talking about, paragraph through paragraph, and we over-prescribe hormone birth control for pimples, acne, controlling your periods.

Speaker 1 I don't even, you know that.

Speaker 1 But it is way, way over-prescribed in this country.

Speaker 1 And I think people need to know the downsides. And there's a huge movement that is bipartisan, but mostly by conservatives, that is that is trying to encourage women to get off hormonal birth control.

Speaker 3 And then I have one question about what you said earlier about with

Speaker 3 evolution or with like the age of the earth. Do you think that evolution could be possible with the Bible?

Speaker 1 Yeah, potentially.

Speaker 1 I don't believe in evolution, but I'm open to the belief that it's possible.

Speaker 1 I'm satisfied with that.

Speaker 1 And so I do, I 100% believe in adaptation that is completely viewed by the human eye and by evolution is a faith belief, and the faith might be correct, which means that there's a species change.

Speaker 1 We just haven't been around long enough to see that species change. We can assume it,

Speaker 1 it can be implied, but we have never seen or witnessed,

Speaker 1 for example, a non-Homo sapien becoming a Homo sapien. If that makes sense.

Speaker 1 But there are lots of Christians I respect that believe in God-ushered evolution. That evolution is God's intent, and that is how we came here.
I have no problem with that.

Speaker 1 I don't hold that belief. I believe we are designed as is, as it says in the scripture.
But if you have that belief,

Speaker 1 I'm not here to tell you you're wrong.

Speaker 3 You want to sign this hat? Yeah, sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, Yeah, great. Thank you.

Speaker 1 Good job, man.

Speaker 1 Okay, yes. Disagreements, welcome, and we'll keep going.

Speaker 3 Hi, Charlie.

Speaker 3 So my question for you was basically just about like, I know that a lot of your viewpoints on social issues like abortion and LGBTQ rights are probably driven by your faith, right?

Speaker 1 So my question to you would be, what if someone has a different faith and therefore they innately innately do like they disagree with what you believe like what your faith says yeah it's a good question so I believe it because of divine revelation but I use I convince people with reason so I never use scripture to someone who doesn't share my view as a reason as to why they should believe what I believe for example I believe abortion is wrong and it's murder I can give you a scriptural argument which will not apply to you that everyone's made in the image of God and I knew you before you're knitted in the womb but I will give you a biological one that can be agreed upon using reason

Speaker 3 Okay, and then in the case of like LGBTQ issues, what would your argument be for someone who has a different perspective or a different faith?

Speaker 1 Which in particular?

Speaker 3 Any of it, like same-sex marriage.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, again, I've done the same-sex marriage one a lot, but I mean, how about the trans one? I mean, the trans one's pretty easy, right?

Speaker 1 I mean, we just went through that using reason and science and rationality, saying that

Speaker 1 what is the being?

Speaker 1 What is the purpose of the being what does it exist to be what is it biologically and so all everything I believe is supported and rooted and foundational in scripture but I can defend using reason and agreed upon exterior evidence

Speaker 1 and what if my faith directly contradicts your faith that's that's fine you have to use reason too then though for example I mean if you come after it and you say you know my faith says I'm you know I'm Aztec and I think that we can sacrifice kids I say that's wrong so tell me why you think that's right but here's the thing is that there is, at some point, you need an agreed-upon moral dimension.

Speaker 1 And in America, we have a Judeo-Christian, largely Christian moral dimension that has built the West. Murder is wrong.
You can't take people's stuff.

Speaker 1 You have individual rights, universal human equality. These things do come from a Christian viewpoint.
They're not just derived out of nature. They do come from revelation.

Speaker 1 And I'm sure you believe all those things. So as long as we believe those things fundamentally and foundationally, we then can compare all of our issues to those things.

Speaker 3 And I agree with a few of those, but on the

Speaker 3 notion of like universal equality,

Speaker 3 would you believe that you are innately treating women as equal when you're stripping them of their bodily autonomy?

Speaker 1 Well, yes. I mean, first of all, we're not stripping anybody of their bodily autonomy because that baby has bodily autonomy, right?

Speaker 1 So by definition, an abortion strips that baby of bodily autonomy.

Speaker 1 So I care about the bodily autonomy of both the woman and the unborn baby that she's hosting.

Speaker 3 That unborn baby is a fetus inside of the woman.

Speaker 1 Right. So

Speaker 1 a fetus literally means, it's just another term, for offspring or it's a stage of human development. But what do you mean by fetus? Like, just because if it's small, why does it not have moral value?

Speaker 3 It's a part of the woman's body that she has a constitutional body.

Speaker 1 Well, it's attached to, it's not part of. So there's an umbilical cord that attaches one being to another.
That doesn't mean that it is the mother's. It is a separate DNA, correct?

Speaker 1 So it's its own being, own fingerprints, own identity. You are not your mother nor your father, you're your own thing.

Speaker 1 And so the bodily autonomy, universal human equality, means the mother gets rights and the baby gets rights and they're universally equal.

Speaker 1 So just because the mother is larger, more developed, happens to be stronger, does not mean she gets to terminate the baby.

Speaker 3 How does forcing her to give birth then

Speaker 3 give her any autonomy when she has to go through nine months of that torture?

Speaker 1 Well, again, well, it's...

Speaker 1 yeah, it's not torture for all women. In fact, it's a blessing for a lot of people.

Speaker 3 For some, yes. But what if they didn't get that choice? What if they were raped? What if they were to be able to do that?

Speaker 1 Okay, no, so yeah. So, again, I believe all babies should be protected regardless of rape or incest.
But then, can we agree that all abortions except rape should be outlawed?

Speaker 1 No, I don't agree with that. Okay, yeah.
So then, why do you it's funny?

Speaker 1 They always bring up the rape thing as a, as an it's less than 1% of all the cases. But let's, but didn't the woman then therefore make a decision to get pregnant when she had sex?

Speaker 1 So she had bodily autonomy, and she decided to use her bodily autonomy to get pregnant.

Speaker 3 No, because she could have been using contraception that could have failed.

Speaker 1 But no, but

Speaker 1 she decided to have sex.

Speaker 3 Making the decision to have sex isn't the same as making the decision to reproduce.

Speaker 1 Wait, well, hold on.

Speaker 1 Play risky games. You get risky prizes.

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Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I guarantee you that almost every single person who gets pregnant in this country knows the price and the consequence of sex. You would agree.

Speaker 1 And so when they engage in that, they're playing in a game of which they know that there might be a consequence. So you have to take responsibility for your own orgasms.

Speaker 3 And the responsibility could be to terminate that pregnancy if you cannot support it.

Speaker 1 Okay, so

Speaker 1 let's play out that moral argument. I have a two-year-old at home.
If I lose my job and all of a sudden I'm bankrupt, can I terminate my two-year-old because I can no longer support her?

Speaker 3 You should not terminate her.

Speaker 1 But no, why should I not be allowed to?

Speaker 3 You kept her. She was born.
Now she's your child, and as a parent, you have a responsibility towards her.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 at what point did my daughter become a human being?

Speaker 3 I would say when she had the ability to survive outside of your wife's body independently.

Speaker 1 Okay, so, but what do you mean by survive? My daughter still can't hunt or gather, still can't go grocery shopping, still can't make her own food, so she can't survive without either of us.

Speaker 3 When she had the ability to breathe by herself, when she had the ability to breathe.

Speaker 1 So the doctors told us that there was a potential that my daughter might need a breathing machine when she was born. Was she not human?

Speaker 3 She was born. Yes.

Speaker 3 And she can survive with medical aid, but say you take a fetus out at, what, 10, 12 weeks? They can't survive.

Speaker 1 Yes, but just, I want to understand this. Just because a being can't support without supportive care, does that make them not human?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 But at a certain point in the pregnancy, they cannot survive even with that care. They cannot survive even without a break.

Speaker 1 No, but I know, but a baby will die within a couple of days without nourishment and die with, like, almost start starving to death in 24 hours.

Speaker 1 A baby always needs external care throughout the process of development, whether it be at 10 weeks or 15 weeks, 20 weeks or 30 weeks.

Speaker 1 I'm just curious, when all of a sudden does the magic switch happen when the baby becomes human?

Speaker 3 Like I said, when it can survive independently of the body.

Speaker 1 So before not human and then after human? Sure. So then before what is it called? What species is that? I'm just, is it a dolphin, a giraffe, a crocodile? Like what species is it?

Speaker 1 Because it's not human.

Speaker 1 You said it's not human. So before that,

Speaker 1 what species is it?

Speaker 3 I would just describe it as a human fetus. Once again, not a human, not necessarily a human, like fully grown person.
Okay, but just a fully developed person.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but a five-year-old is not fully grown or developed. In fact, brains do not fully develop until 25 years old.
So a lot of people in this audience don't have fully developed.

Speaker 1 You're still developing.

Speaker 1 So, but under that argument, development is a process that takes many, many decades, actually, a decade and a half.

Speaker 1 So why do we apply that logic and that morality just because something is smaller or inconvenient, we can terminate that thing

Speaker 3 i think a good point would be to make that like a good point to make would be that once the baby is separate from the mother like fully separate out of the body then you can consider that baby like an independent human being okay so then abortion okay all the way up through the process of development even if the baby can feel pain

Speaker 1 people don't get they don't traditionally get abortions in the second or yeah there's about thirty thousand a year actually and so you should know that but that's okay.

Speaker 1 In the third trimester, and it's legal in six states across the country, this state being one of them,

Speaker 1 and six states and then the District of Columbia. But I just want to be very clear, though, and it's important that we're having this, that when a woman says, hey, I'm pregnant, I'm having a what?

Speaker 1 A baby.

Speaker 1 Not a fetus.

Speaker 3 Because when the baby is born, it's a baby. Got it.

Speaker 1 So, but help me understand, when a woman is pregnant and she points to her stomach, she says, there's there's a baby here, and then another woman wants to go to an abortion clinic, she says there's a fetus here.

Speaker 1 Why is it morally okay that we say that a woman can view this as a baby and that as something that's just a clump of cells? Shouldn't there be an independent truth that is applicable to all beings?

Speaker 3 Well, that's the thing about the pro-choice argument: you have the choice. If you want to abort, you can.
If you don't want to, you don't have to.

Speaker 1 But let's play this out. What you're saying, though, is that human existence is merely subjective based on who is more powerful than you.

Speaker 3 Not necessarily based on who's more powerful than you are.

Speaker 1 Well, think about it. You can't argue that.
Because the mom is more powerful than the baby. The mom is more developed, has agency, has reason.
The baby does not yet have that.

Speaker 1 So to play that out, the pro-choice argument is a eugenics argument, being whoever is in charge has the power to eliminate whomever they want if they're an inconvenience to you.

Speaker 1 How is that any morally different than Adolf Hitler in Nazi Germany?

Speaker 3 Were all of the Jews a part of Hitler?

Speaker 1 Well, you know what? It's very interesting. They called the Jews parasites, and a lot of pro-abortion people call fetuses parasites.

Speaker 1 In fact, I had a recent debate where in the literature of the Planned Parenthood, they will call it parasites. The Jews were called parasites and a stain on German culture, therefore to be eliminated.

Speaker 1 And so the same moral philosophy that governed Nazi Germany is the same moral philosophy that is used for pro-abortion arguments. I can do what I want as long as I'm more powerful.

Speaker 3 The argument is that you have control over your own body, which.

Speaker 1 But again, it's. But what about the body that is also in you? Does that baby have rights?

Speaker 3 No.

Speaker 3 Not inside. Not while it's inside the body.

Speaker 1 Doesn't have rights. Wow.

Speaker 1 Even though you have a heartbeat, brain waves,

Speaker 1 no rights.

Speaker 3 Not while inside of the uterus.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 no,

Speaker 1 I just want to be very.

Speaker 1 One more thing that I think is really important.

Speaker 1 If it wasn't killing and or murder, which of course it is,

Speaker 1 why is it that you have to stop a heart from beating?

Speaker 3 What do you mean?

Speaker 1 So, there's a heart beating,

Speaker 1 and then you have to stop the heart beating. Okay.

Speaker 1 How is that not killing? It could be.

Speaker 1 Oh, so it is killing.

Speaker 3 Even if it is, I am still okay with abortion.

Speaker 1 In a hypothetical experiment, let's just play this out.

Speaker 1 It's actually not hypothetical. I want to make sure we're clear.

Speaker 1 Do you think that it should be legal if my wife and I get the pregnancy test back and we find out we're having a woman, a baby girl, and we say we don't want a girl, should I be able to terminate that baby?

Speaker 1 It's called sex-selective abortion.

Speaker 3 I'm aware. India

Speaker 3 made it illegal to get

Speaker 3 screening just because of that.

Speaker 1 I'm aware. It's legal in America, should it be?

Speaker 3 I don't know. Do you think so?

Speaker 1 Of course not. How about you?

Speaker 3 Maybe America should just make gender reveals illegal? You know, finding out the sex of the baby.

Speaker 1 Wait, hold on, one more, one more. I find out that my baby has Down syndrome.
Should I be able to terminate the baby?

Speaker 3 It's your decision.

Speaker 1 You have no different moral philosophy than Joseph Goebbels and Adolf Hitler.

Speaker 1 Next person.

Speaker 1 It's amazing.

Speaker 1 The heartlessness of like, oh, yeah, just discard them. When you dehumanize a population, it's easy to murder them.
Hi. You're booing me, not you.

Speaker 5 I know, I know.

Speaker 5 My name is Zoe.

Speaker 5 And I wanted to ask you about something you said earlier about how Christianity, the loss of faith of Christianity, is shaping our country in a poor way, yes?

Speaker 1 Yeah?

Speaker 5 So what do you think about the separation of church and state?

Speaker 1 Well, it doesn't exist, but.

Speaker 1 But shouldn't it? No. Why?

Speaker 1 Well, because it's not constitutional. There's the Establishment Clause and the Free Expression Clause.
But I mean, let's forget that.

Speaker 1 Do you agree you should have separation of morality and state? That's the more important question.

Speaker 5 See, that's an interesting topic because morality is a much broader question than religion. Because I'm thinking specifically with us being from a Western culture, Christian background, and

Speaker 5 with the First Amendment, freedom of religion is part of that. No, for sure.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but you have a misunderstanding, I think, and that's okay, of separation of church and state. It basically, it was a single letter.

Speaker 5 Hold on, what's my misunderstanding? I was getting there.

Speaker 1 Where is it from? Tell me.

Speaker 1 What? The phrase.

Speaker 1 The separation of church and state. I was about to tell you, but it interrupted me.
You want to tell me?

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Okay. It's a single letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote in 1803 to the Anbury Baptist Convention, assuring them that the government would not come after them.

Speaker 1 It was resurrected by the Warren Court and then the Burger Court to then be used as this fictitious thing that Christianity cannot be involved in our government. That's all fine.

Speaker 1 You don't have to agree with that. The point is this: our laws, our customs, and traditions are built on Judeo-Christian norms, specifically the Ten Commandments.

Speaker 1 And I want you to tell me which of the Ten Commandments, maybe you agree or disagree, should not be the baseline of the American tradition or country. Because it is the best way to live.

Speaker 1 The Ten Commandments objectively creates the best societies. You follow the Ten Commandments, your society will flourish.

Speaker 5 But do you think Christianity is the best thing for a

Speaker 1 country to follow? Of course, we have the agency for people to reject it or accept it. It's not by force.
That's what a free society is all about.

Speaker 1 But yes, a Christian society, of course, is the best society. Absolutely.
Because this country was once Christian, it was a way better Christian country than it is now. And now we are.

Speaker 1 Why do you think we're the most depressed, suicidal, alcohol-addicted, drug-addicted, aimless country, generation and country in the Western world? It's largely because we're very, very secular.

Speaker 1 Thank you so much. I appreciate that.

Speaker 5 Do you blame that on a loss of faith, or is that something with modern society, with how we have technology is such a big part of our lives, and we're no longer engaging with people as much?

Speaker 5 It's not necessarily that Christianity is the best, but having community is more important.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, I mean, Christianity gives you community, right? You go to church, you have community.

Speaker 5 But is that the only community?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I believe it's the best, though. I mean, you seem to have a negative view of Christianity.
What is that?

Speaker 5 I grew up, I went to private Catholic school.

Speaker 1 Where?

Speaker 1 Portland, Oregon. Okay.

Speaker 5 So

Speaker 5 something with that is.

Speaker 1 It just rubbed you the wrong way, maybe. It did.
That's true. I know.
I meet a lot of Catholics that were raised that way, and they don't know.

Speaker 5 Well, it's the whole Catholic guilt thing. And then.

Speaker 1 I actually, I love Catholic guilt. I think it's amazing.
But yeah,

Speaker 2 what do you like about it?

Speaker 1 I think that you should believe there's a God that judges you and that you're not the center of the world and that you have to repent for what you've done wrong and that you need a savior.

Speaker 1 I think that all that's really important, actually. I think that believing you're the center of the universe creates narcissism and suicidal behavior.

Speaker 1 And I think that knowing that, like, hey, I've fallen a lot this week and I repent in my failures, in my deeds, what I've done, what I've failed to do is actually really amazing and important.

Speaker 1 And it requires us to go to the cross. And I think that's really healthy.

Speaker 5 So do you think that with any sort of downfall or any crime that happens, that if someone repents enough, that they can make up for it?

Speaker 1 Yes or no? I believe all sins could be forgiven in God's economy, and I believe in transformation for sure.

Speaker 1 That's the promise of Christianity. But do you think we have a guilt problem in this country, or do we have a narcissism problem in this country? I think both.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we don't have a guilt problem in this country. No way.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we have a narcissism problem.

Speaker 1 We do not have people walking around feeling guilty for what they've done.

Speaker 1 We have people that shout their guilt from, or what is their guilt from the rooftops, bragging about the nonsense that they've done. Right?

Speaker 1 Yeah. We have people shouting their abortions, live streaming, shoplifting, stores, talking about how they don't honor their parents anymore.
I think that's bad.

Speaker 1 And so, again, I believe in a God that loves us and a God that judges us, and both those things are simultaneously.

Speaker 5 Do you believe in a fair God?

Speaker 1 I believe in a loving God.

Speaker 1 And our God is a God of justice and a God of mercy, and a God that loves us so much that gave us a second chance, and more importantly, a chance at eternal life, one that we don't deserve or one that we haven't earned.

Speaker 5 So do you think that having Christian values and laws is something that's okay?

Speaker 5 Something that's a big topic that's talked about a lot today is like abortion and that how there's a lot of laws that are made with this Christian idea.

Speaker 1 Yeah, again

Speaker 1 abolishing abortion is not just a Christian idea. Christopher Hitchens was famously an anti-abortion advocate, okay, and he was an atheist.
But yes, I do believe all abortion should be illegal.

Speaker 5 What do you think about with medical complications? Because you even said yourself that there was a medical comp...

Speaker 5 complication that almost happened with your daughter, but what about if that was your wife? What if she was so serious?

Speaker 1 Yeah, well, first of all, doctors lie a lot and they exaggerate that the medical complication is always necessary.

Speaker 1 In fact, we had a young lady just recently at an event who came and did that who said they needed an abortion and she didn't. Secondly, almost always cesarean section can be performed.

Speaker 1 You know what a cesarean section is, right? A C-section. And then if abortion is medically necessary, then yes, to save the life of the mother.
But that's incredibly rare.

Speaker 1 And even some OBGYNs don't believe that's ever necessary. Really?

Speaker 5 What about in ectopic pregnancy?

Speaker 1 Yeah, so what do you deliver the baby or have a cesarean section and you take the baby out?

Speaker 1 You don't terminate it. In topic pregnancy, you don't terminate the baby.
You just take it out and it probably won't survive outside of the womb.

Speaker 5 So you're saying abortion is okay if it's to save a woman, yes?

Speaker 1 I don't even think it's

Speaker 1 I am of the belief that abortion is never medically necessary. Are you a doctor?

Speaker 1 No, are you? No.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but there is a community of OBGYNs that agree with me.

Speaker 5 So is it our decision to make? Is it something that we can decide?

Speaker 1 That's an interesting question.

Speaker 5 So should it be something that people have the ability to vote on, yes or no, if a woman is able to make that choice?

Speaker 1 Should a mom be able to kill her two-year-old daughter? No. Are you a doctor? No.

Speaker 1 Okay, but why are we able to say it's wrong?

Speaker 1 So we're able to make moral statements. When the baby's outside the womb, why not while it's in the womb?

Speaker 1 Thank you for coming up. Think about that.

Speaker 1 For more on many of these stories and news you can trust, go to charliekirk.com.