‘Modern Love’: Where Did All My Male Friendships Go?

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Speaker 3 Hey everyone, it's Rachel. As you know, every Sunday this summer, we've been bringing you episodes of our colleague's show, Modern Love.
We're doing that for just a couple more weeks.

Speaker 3 And for this week, our host, Anna Martin, is here to tell us what's on the show.

Speaker 4 Hi, Anna. Hey, Rachel.

Speaker 2 So tell me, what do you have for us this week? Yeah, Rachel, I wonder what comes to mind when I say these two words. All right, here we go.
Male loneliness.

Speaker 3 Men get lonely?

Speaker 2 I know, it's crazy, right?

Speaker 3 But no, but in all seriousness, certainly I feel like the societal-wide problem of being lonely has certainly grown as a concern, at least in my periphery.

Speaker 2 Absolutely same. Yeah.
And specifically for men, there is actually data that backs up this idea of increasing male loneliness.

Speaker 2 There's a survey I'm thinking of from last year that showed that 15% of men reported having zero close friends, like no close friends. That's five times higher than surveys from 1990.

Speaker 2 So men have less friends these days.

Speaker 3 That is really genuinely quite sad.

Speaker 2 It is sad. And it's one thing to hear those statistics, but this week I talked to someone who realized he was actually becoming a statistic.
I talked to the writer Sam Graham Felson.

Speaker 2 He wrote about his experience, his loneliness ultimately for the New York Times magazine.

Speaker 2 Sam has this very moving, very sweet story about growing up with all of these close friendships with other boys, other young men, but then when he reached adulthood, sort of looking around around and realizing he was deeply, deeply lonely.

Speaker 2 But the thing about Sam that I find so inspiring really is that he decided to do something about it. I'm really excited for you to hear this story.

Speaker 3 I'm excited to hear it too, Anna. Thank you so much.
And everyone, here's this week's episode of Modern Love.

Speaker 4 Love now and

Speaker 4 fall in love last time I love love was stronger than anything.

Speaker 4 And I love you more than anything.

Speaker 4 There's still love.

Speaker 2 From the New York Times, I'm Anna Martin. This is Modern Love.
This week, I'm talking to the writer Sam Graham Felson.

Speaker 2 He just wrote a piece for the New York Times magazine called, Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone?

Speaker 4 It wasn't like one day I woke up and was like, oh my God, I'm lonely.

Speaker 4 But it was kind of like that.

Speaker 4 But I always thought, oh, well, that's something that applies to other guys because I have a million friends. I can't imagine ever feeling lonely

Speaker 4 and then like

Speaker 4 sometime in in my 30s i'm like wait a minute i think i'm actually kind of feeling lonely

Speaker 4 you know my wife is a wonderful person the best listener ever that's why i fell in love with her in the first place but like at a certain point she's basically like dude just go hang out with your friends just call them and hang out with them like you're right you're right of course then i didn't call them and hang out with them

Speaker 4 and i did every every single thing except for hang out with my friends.

Speaker 2 Sam told me it felt difficult to just go hang out with his friends again. And to try to understand why it felt so hard, he decided to write about it.

Speaker 2 And full disclosure, his wife's an editor at the magazine.

Speaker 4 I was like, look, if I'm going to write a whole thing about how,

Speaker 4 you know, I somehow let myself slip into loneliness despite having all a wealth of, you know, close friendships.

Speaker 4 I feel like I owe it to myself to try to actually do something about it.

Speaker 2 I wanted to know what Sam did to get his friends back into his life, what it meant for a sense of well-being, and how it changed what he thought it meant to be a man.

Speaker 5 Here's our conversation.

Speaker 2 Sam Graham Felson, welcome to Modern Love.

Speaker 4 Thanks so much for having me.

Speaker 2 So we're here to talk about this piece you wrote for the New York Times magazine. It's called, Where Have All My Deep Male Friendships Gone?

Speaker 2 And we'll get into your story, but I want to start by asking, had you felt lonely before? Had you felt this kind of, or was this a new...

Speaker 4 It was totally new. I mean, you know, my whole life

Speaker 4 until, you know, I became lonely, I saw myself as an extrovert.

Speaker 4 And one of my problems, like when I was younger, was like over-obligating myself and making too many plans and then having to to cancel on friends and having them get mad at me.

Speaker 4 And, you know, from a young age, I remember I found my report card from fourth grade and my teacher, it's really funny that teachers wrote stuff like this back then.

Speaker 4 She was like, you know, Sam, he, you know, he's way too much of a social butterfly. I fear I may have to clip his wings.
Oh my god. Yeah.

Speaker 4 What? I know. She literally wrote that.
And,

Speaker 4 but that's who I was.

Speaker 2 What did friendship mean to you when you were that social butterfly in fourth grade?

Speaker 4 Fourth grade was when I really remember having a friendship that was so intense, it almost felt like falling in love.

Speaker 4 There was a boy named Andrew in my class who

Speaker 4 he was the first kid who I had ever seen comb his hair and put like gel in his hair. Oh, wow.

Speaker 4 God, that's cool.

Speaker 4 Like before that, it was just like everyone woke up with bedhead and went, at least the boys did, went to school with like crazy bedhead, you know, like Alexander's horrible no-good day.

Speaker 4 and and that was that was me and and um

Speaker 4 and then like you know there was this kid who you know put gel in his hair and he and he had these t-shirts called hyper color where if you blew on them they changed color which is hang on this was a thing in the early 90s and he had a swatch watch and i remember like kind of swagged out is he was a man i mean boy he was yes

Speaker 4 nine nine year old boy um but i remember vividly like i had no concept of what was fashion what was cool or anything like that and i remember seeing this kid and i was like this this guy, I want to be like this guy.

Speaker 4 And it ended up being this thing where I felt like I was at his house every single day after school. Right.
Right. We were just like hanging out constantly.

Speaker 4 It's funny. I hadn't thought about this in years, but we had this thing that we called the Babe Olympics where

Speaker 4 like both of us had a crush on Christina Applegate from

Speaker 4 Married with Children or whatever, and Jennifer Connolly from The Rocketeer. And we would create these wacky competitions where the winner

Speaker 4 got to go on some fictional date with Jennifer Connelly or whatever.

Speaker 4 So like some of it would be sports like playing one-on-one basketball, but like some of it would be like, who can drink, you know, the most water in one minute?

Speaker 4 Or, you know, like these absurd competitions. And

Speaker 4 I just remember. being absorbed in his world, introducing him to my world.
And I just remember laughing all the time.

Speaker 2 I mean, but what you're saying is, in addition to the worlds, you know, of him introducing you to his interests, right?

Speaker 2 His world, you introducing him to your interests, you are creating, as you're saying, the world of your relationship, right? And I want to go back.

Speaker 2 You said this was a friendship, the first one with this guy, Andrew, right? Where it felt akin to falling in love. And you're so young, but do you remember, like,

Speaker 2 can you tell me more about

Speaker 2 that connection? Was it like, I want to be with this guy all the time? I trust this guy. Like, what was behind that?

Speaker 4 Yeah, so the reason why I compare it to falling in love is because like, I know what it's like to fall in love. I fell in love with my wife very quickly.

Speaker 4 And I remember just that feeling of like nine out of 10 of my thoughts are about this person.

Speaker 4 You know, and

Speaker 4 all I want to do is hang out with this person. And I can't wait until the school day is over so that I have time with this guy

Speaker 4 to go do our thing and make, you know, prank calls to

Speaker 4 and go back to the Babe Olympics for round 900 of the Babe Olympics. And it was also the feeling of like

Speaker 4 jealousy, frankly. Like if he, if he was

Speaker 4 hanging out with other people, I started to be like, well, does he like those people more than me?

Speaker 4 And actually, like, what ended our friendship was that he got a girlfriend. And that was like totally devastating.

Speaker 4 And it's, it's an interesting kind of like echo of what happens later in life when people get married and end up sidelining their friends. But he completely sidelined me after he got a girlfriend.

Speaker 4 I remember one one day, like

Speaker 4 that was when, in middle school, or that was that was in seventh grade. Okay.
Um, and I remember one day, uh,

Speaker 4 you know, he, he wasn't, you know, answering my calls or whatever. So I just showed up at his door and I was like, hey, what's going on? Why aren't we, you know, let's hang out.

Speaker 4 And his girlfriend was there unbeknownst to me. And he literally, it was like out of a movie.
He did the thing where he shut the door in my face and he's like, go away.

Speaker 2 Wow. Wait, stop.

Speaker 4 What did that feel like? Horrible.

Speaker 4 It was, it was akin to being dumped yeah I do remember like walking home he lived probably like a seven minute walk from my house and I I lived on a hill and I remember just like walking home up that damn hill and my legs would always be so tired when I was a kid walking up this hill and just like feeling like each step was like heavy and the reason why it was so hard is because yeah again like the the degree of closeness I felt with these friends was

Speaker 4 almost like it almost felt like being in a monogamous relationship.

Speaker 2 You're articulating a feeling that I think is, that I resonate with. And yeah, I'm curious if like other people in your school or whatever saw that intense connection.
What do they think of it?

Speaker 2 How was it perceived, do you think?

Speaker 4 I think at that point,

Speaker 4 we were young enough that the homophobia stuff hadn't

Speaker 4 started to really like, you know, creep up yet. But certainly by the time I was in seventh grade, eighth grade, um, and beyond, like

Speaker 4 it was, it was totally,

Speaker 4 it was constant hearing people make homophobic kind of like insults. Um, and and you know, some of it was teasing, some of it was like worse than teasing.
Right.

Speaker 4 Because people saw like, you know, how close I was to to some of my male friends. People used to call me Sam Gay.

Speaker 4 and you know who is this guy with like who's so obsessed with his male friends like let's call him gay you know so like all of that stuff but but i remember like at one point there used to be this thing called a slam book where uh it was basically like a proto

Speaker 4 social media where it was those old composition notebooks with the marble black and white cover.

Speaker 4 Someone would would create one of these things and they would write a name on each page of the notebook. Oh my God.

Speaker 4 And it would just float around school and people would write anonymously whatever they thought about that person.

Speaker 2 Wow. It is a physical, it's a burn book.
I mean, this is a reference to mean girls, I think, but yeah.

Speaker 4 And I remember like seeing in that burn book, in the slam book,

Speaker 4 somebody, you know, wrote, Sam and Rob like are swinging on each other's nuts like Tarzan.

Speaker 4 Rob was like, you know, one of my closest friends.

Speaker 2 Tell me how you and Rob Rob met. He plays a really big part in the piece you wrote.

Speaker 4 I think I was in sixth grade. I was 10 or 11.

Speaker 4 There was a kid who had invited me to a sleepover birthday party.

Speaker 4 I hated going to sleepover birthday parties. I'm really laying it all out on the line here.
It's totally endearing. I'm like, I get it.
But like, I...

Speaker 4 I hated going to these parties because all the boys like to watch horror movies and I hated horror movies. And literally, like a month before, I had just been to another sleepover party

Speaker 4 where they had shown this movie called Child's Play 2, which is so stupid. And I'm like, how could I have thought this movie was scary?

Speaker 4 But it's basically like this doll who is possessed by a demon and then ends up stabbing everybody with a butcher knife. To be honest, that sounds terrifying.
Okay.

Speaker 4 But anyway, that's the movie they were watching. And

Speaker 4 there wasn't like another room that I could go into. So I just, I just like, I found a, I found his phone and I called my mom and I was like, uh, I'm sick, can you come pick me up?

Speaker 4 And you know, I like, you know, I, I'm sure they could tell I wasn't sick and it was totally embarrassing.

Speaker 4 And I ended up, you know, I remember crying in the car because I was so embarrassed, but I was also like, thank God, I can go home, you know.

Speaker 4 So, anyway, so I really didn't want to go to this sleepover party. And, you know, it's like probably 11 p.m.
Like,

Speaker 4 we'd eaten tons of pizza, made your own, make, make your own ice cream sundaes,

Speaker 4 and then everyone like goes into the den in his house to

Speaker 4 start watching a movie. And before they even picked the movie, I'm just like, I got to get out of here.
Like I started panicking. And

Speaker 4 this other kid at the party, his name was Rob, was like, you know what? I don't feel like watching movies. Like, I just feel like playing Nintendo in the other room.

Speaker 4 And I was like, oh, that's, that's, that's my, uh, that's my opportunity. Totally.
So I just followed him in there and

Speaker 4 he was playing a game called Final Fantasy. And I still remember it because it was like the seminal moment in my life.
And he's like, dude, do you want to play? Like, I've been playing for a while.

Speaker 4 I'm like, no, no, no, do your thing.

Speaker 4 And by the way, my parents were hippies and we didn't have video games. I didn't even know how to play.
I was just happy to watch him.

Speaker 4 And I don't even remember what we talked about, but we stayed up all night. And I remember really connecting to him, but also just feeling like

Speaker 4 he saved me. And I don't

Speaker 4 know if he was conscious that he'd done it, but I felt that he had saved me. And I felt this overwhelming gratitude towards him.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I quickly

Speaker 4 realized this guy is like

Speaker 4 unlike anyone I've ever hung out with before.

Speaker 4 He was really into like philosophy. Like he was really into...

Speaker 2 He was young to be into philosophy.

Speaker 4 It was young to be into philosophy. He also had similar interests.
Like we both were obsessed with the Boston Celtics and

Speaker 4 things like that. But he was intellectually and morally serious in a way that like none of my other friends were at that age.

Speaker 4 And I just remember like thinking like, wow,

Speaker 4 this guy is

Speaker 4 operating on another level. And I want to be a part of that level.

Speaker 4 I was really concerned with being cool, right? Like, I was very concerned with, you know, trying to fit in. And he was the opposite.
Like, he, he, he was wearing khakis.

Speaker 4 Literally, nobody wore khakis except for him. And he looked like an old man.
And I was just so impressed of like, this guy doesn't care about being cool.

Speaker 4 I care deeply, but I wish I was the kind of person who didn't care about being cool. And that was part of the world that I wanted to enter into is like his, his, his world of like just being

Speaker 4 an individual, you know, and I wasn't quite an individual yet. And he helped me to become an individual.

Speaker 2 You know, you're doing something I think is very difficult, which is describing why you love someone. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, I wonder, you're having all of these,

Speaker 2 you're spending so much time with him, you're learning from him.

Speaker 2 What do you feel like you were learning about friendship at this at this point?

Speaker 4 I think, I think Rob helped me see that, like,

Speaker 4 a friendship can be as serious

Speaker 4 emotionally as

Speaker 4 a romantic relationship. It can be as serious emotionally as a family

Speaker 4 kinship. It's a big deal.

Speaker 4 But I think the other thing I just learned from these intense friendships is like

Speaker 4 Like I was having the time of my damn life, you know, like I was really

Speaker 4 did not like school

Speaker 4 and all I could think about was either after school or the summer when I could spend all day, you know, playing basketball with my friends and

Speaker 4 chatting with them late into the night. They made me happy.
They feel good.

Speaker 4 Yeah, that's the thing I learned most from it. It's just like it feels good to be with other people.

Speaker 4 And that, and it's, you know, it's, it's funny that I have to like spell that out now because it's like something I have to tell myself.

Speaker 4 Before it was just intuitive, dude, it feels good to hang out with other dudes.

Speaker 2 I honestly feel like emotional when I hear you say I'm having the time of my damn life. It's putting me back to places.

Speaker 2 It's like, it's so joyful and fulfilling, and your friends are the center of your world. And not only that, you know that you're the center of theirs.

Speaker 4 I wonder:

Speaker 2 were you talking about feelings with Rob or with other friends? Like, were you going deeper on that level?

Speaker 4 It's a good question.

Speaker 4 I definitely,

Speaker 4 like

Speaker 4 most men who I've met and talked to,

Speaker 4 historically have found it difficult to talk about feelings, particularly with other men.

Speaker 4 So I would say like, the answer is yes, but I would say like it would start with talking about something in a more abstract way, like a moral dilemma.

Speaker 4 What I remember is it was always like late in the night, just me, me and this other friend. And I'll use Rob as an example.
We'd be hanging out, watch a funny movie, right?

Speaker 4 Eventually we get into bed around midnight or whatever. I'm like lying on the cot on the floor and we're joking around.
And I guess the first stage of the arc is like the joking around.

Speaker 4 The second stage, maybe, you know, talking about the girls we want to kiss or whatever.

Speaker 2 I think it's important to say it's dark. It's like you're not looking at each other.
I actually do think that's important, right? Because it's like.

Speaker 4 It's almost almost like being in therapy where you're like lying on a couch, looking up at the ceiling, right? You're not looking at each other, you're both lying in bed.

Speaker 4 Yeah, and just as one is starting to doze off, the other one's like, By the way, like, there's one other thing I want to talk about, and then it goes on for another hour, right?

Speaker 4 So I remember it would be like after talking about a lot of other stuff,

Speaker 4 then feeling like loose enough, that's when we would talk about, you know, the heavier, more emotional things, but like, you know, insecurities and the things that I felt bad about myself, like wishing that, I don't know, like it sounds trivial, but like wishing that I were better at sports.

Speaker 4 Like,

Speaker 2 would you ever say I love you to your friends?

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 4 No.

Speaker 4 No. And I mean,

Speaker 4 even now,

Speaker 4 like,

Speaker 4 I would like to be able to say that, but, and I say that once in a blue moon, but like it's something that

Speaker 4 I struggle to do. And like my wife says she loves her friends all the time.
It's not hard for her. But yeah, no, no, we wouldn't, we wouldn't say that.

Speaker 2 Did you have like a way that you expressed your love for one another, if not in words?

Speaker 4 You know, there wasn't like hugging. There wasn't like

Speaker 4 certainly wasn't like holding hands, hugging any of the, any of that kind of stuff. It was because there was still this consciousness of like, you know, you.

Speaker 2 The burn book that you mentioned.

Speaker 4 Yeah. Yeah.
You don't want you don't want anyone to perceive you as being something other than friends at that age.

Speaker 4 So even in private,

Speaker 4 you're going to sit a little bit further away on the couch than you need to.

Speaker 4 So yeah,

Speaker 2 that's just how it was. But it seems like you knew.
You knew that there was

Speaker 2 a deep friendship and, in fact, a love there between you all.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And

Speaker 4 the reason why, again, I think of it as love is like just the amount of mental space these close friends occupied.

Speaker 4 It was really like spending a lot of time thinking like, would Petey like this, you know, song?

Speaker 4 Would Benny like this pizza place that I just discovered? You know, like just constantly thinking like in terms of my relationships.

Speaker 4 What can I share with a friend? You know, when can I next see this friend? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Did you think you'd be friends with these guys forever?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 When we come back, what happened to Sam's friendships?

Speaker 2 Stay with us.

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Speaker 2 So, Sam, I really want to dig into what happened after college because I imagine it wasn't like you graduated college and then all of a sudden, you know, your friendships disappeared, but something did change clearly as you got older, more into adulthood.

Speaker 2 What were your friendships like in sort of your mid-20s after you left, after you graduated college?

Speaker 4 Immediately after college, they were amazing because

Speaker 4 I was single, living in New York. So I had various apartments that I shared with different friends.

Speaker 4 And that was like, you know, basically an extension of college because it was, you know, staying up super late every night, often, you know with uh beers or weed or whatever probably both and tons of takeout that was terrible for us and you know just i i remember like

Speaker 4 again having the time in my life in my early 20s after college like and it was like somewhere around like 25 26 that things began to shift that was like when a lot of my friends and me started to be like well we need to get our shit together right there was like it like this moment exactly, but yeah, it's the get your shit together years.

Speaker 4 Exactly. So, like, that started happening.
You know, I had friends who were going to law school, friends who were going to med school.

Speaker 4 So, this, this thing started happening where everyone's getting their shit together. People are like leaving New York, and so that starts to happen.
And then

Speaker 4 the bigger thing, of course,

Speaker 4 the biggest thing I would say is people started,

Speaker 4 their relationships started to get more and more serious.

Speaker 4 So, I

Speaker 4 had a girlfriend in college and

Speaker 4 we decided to move in together. So now I'm going from like living with friends to living with my romantic partner.
And

Speaker 4 with friends, for the most part, like, you know, you don't really have to like check in with them about anything. You could do whatever the hell you want.
Right.

Speaker 4 Also, like, with friends, it's like none of the dishes are getting done and we're both slobs and like we don't care.

Speaker 4 But like when you're in a romantic thing, it's like, all right, now you got to take the chores more seriously. You have to like, you're really sharing a space and like building a home with somebody.

Speaker 4 And, you know, so you're, you're running your plans by, by your partner. So little by little, you move in with your partner.

Speaker 4 You

Speaker 4 are going out less because

Speaker 4 you already are with your partner and like a big part of going out is like, oh, well, maybe I'll meet the person tonight you know at the bar or whatever and and you don't have that there's less of a drive yeah and you know when when you're with like you know the the love of your life and you can see them whenever you want this idea starts to creep in well like what do i even need my friends for like i got everything right here right i have like somebody who i love to talk to I also get to do other stuff with them.

Speaker 4 Exactly. Right.
And it's all in the same package. And, you know,

Speaker 4 can I pause just before that?

Speaker 2 It's like, when this was happening, this moving in with

Speaker 2 your partner who becomes, or your girlfriend rather, who becomes your wife,

Speaker 2 and this sort of slowly,

Speaker 2 I don't want to say like the friendships becoming less and less central to your life, maybe less and less of a priority. Were you aware of that?

Speaker 4 I was definitely aware of it because some of my friends were giving me grief about it. Oh, look at Sam.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, now that he's got, you know, he lives with his girlfriend, like he doesn't have time for us anymore. You know, that kind of thing.

Speaker 4 I was,

Speaker 4 I mean, the honest truth is that at the time,

Speaker 4 I didn't consciously miss my friends that much. I was so excited about being with my romantic partner and like, so focused on like trying to crush it and getting my shit together, all that stuff.

Speaker 4 Yeah. I wasn't really.

Speaker 4 If anything, like, I was annoyed at my friends for guilt tripping me. I'm like, ah, just get over it, dude.
And i.e., like, get your own girlfriend and like leave me alone. Right.

Speaker 4 I didn't literally say that but i was i was thinking something along those lines yeah

Speaker 4 becoming mature

Speaker 4 involved getting a romantic partner and like not goofing around with your friends like you're not really a man unless you like stop hanging out with your friends like

Speaker 2 hone in yeah or hone in on this person who

Speaker 2 you love.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's making me think about how, you know, we sort of talk about this on on the show, but it's like you were getting all these different things from different people earlier on in your life.

Speaker 2 You're getting fun from your friends and emotional support from, you know, this guy and basketball with this other guy.

Speaker 2 And then it's like, it's just sort of your focus narrows and you meet this romantic partner who you love, you love deeply.

Speaker 2 And sort of the emotional and the physical and the fun gets narrowed to sort of one person. Does that feel accurate?

Speaker 2 It's like you're putting so much on this romantic relationship that friendship kind of seemed like a distraction. It's almost what I'm hearing you say.

Speaker 4 Yes. They almost felt like a luxury.
Like it's like, okay,

Speaker 4 if I spend two straight weeks not going out, eating healthy, not boozing late into the night and being a nice partner, then like I'll indulge. It's almost like having junk food or something, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 Where was Rob?

Speaker 2 during all this? Like when you were moving in with your romantic partner, what was happening with him? Were you guys in touch?

Speaker 4 So Rob also moved to New York City and after college.

Speaker 4 At a certain point, he moved back to Boston and we were still communicating on the phone and writing each other these like long emails.

Speaker 4 Like we would write each other like three or four or 5,000 word emails. Wow.
Whoa.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And some of them were really emotionally mature

Speaker 4 in a surprising way. You know,

Speaker 4 I was really hurt by this thing that you did.

Speaker 4 You know, I don't feel like you you fully accounted for the way that you hurt me here's what my experience was wow and then writing back i hear that well you know stuff like like stuff that is way more mature than like the way that i now interact with my male friends um but we were still doing that into our into our mid-20s and um

Speaker 4 No one sends emails like that anymore because now we're all just, you know, doing what obviously everyone does is Whatsapping each other and, you know, short little things but but yeah so Rob Rob was

Speaker 4 Rob was in Boston and

Speaker 4 yeah at that point like many of my best friends had dispersed by then

Speaker 2 and then life continues to happen tell me tell me what came next then

Speaker 4 get married

Speaker 4 congratulations thank you

Speaker 4 marriage is just like the relationship thing but on steroids because you're like, Well, now I'm married.

Speaker 4 So, like, I mean, of course, there were no like actual rules saying, Well, you can't go see your friends now that you're married, but there's this internalized idea.

Speaker 4 It's like, well, you know, now that you're a husband, you should be, you should be spending a lot more time at home and not out with your friends. Where did you learn that from?

Speaker 2 Like, where were you,

Speaker 2 who or what, or where were you getting that message from? I'm just curious.

Speaker 4 I think, I think the best way I can answer that is that it was, it was just vibes.

Speaker 4 It was like vibes that come down from years and years and years of watching movies and TV shows and all kinds of messages about like, this is what a boy does and this is what a man does.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 a grown man who continues to like hang out with his friends is a man child, right? Yeah.

Speaker 4 A grown man is supposed to be at home with his wife or out there crushing and making a lot of money so he can be the breadwinner and bring home a lot you know that's right that that's that's the kind of message over and over and over you're getting from from these various like cultural inputs right like this is the way it's supposed to be

Speaker 4 and then having kids

Speaker 4 all of a sudden now you actually are insanely busy right you mean i say right like i know but haven't had any kids yet you get it yeah you're insanely busy for the first time in your life you you you actually truly cannot do whatever the hell you want right you you kind of can't do whatever you want when you're married because it's rude to your partner but like if you do whatever you want when you have a kid like the kid will starve and die right like you can't you know the thing i was not prepared for among many things was like just the amount of dishes and laundry that i was doing just like endless amounts of cleaning up and um and then you're not sleeping for years

Speaker 4 sorry to scare you off from having to i know that's good that's good to hear you you you quickly, well, I say you get used to it. You don't get used to it.

Speaker 4 So you really do have less time to hang out with your friends at that point.

Speaker 4 But what ended up happening was I was saying no to friends more or just like not reaching out to friends as much because

Speaker 4 I was genuinely swamped and I was tired and I didn't want to go out at night. I wanted to try to get a good night's sleep or whatever.
Right.

Speaker 4 But the part where it started to get truly like corrosive to my friendships was, okay,

Speaker 4 things start getting a little bit easier with the kids. Like they get sleep trained.
Now I'm sleeping better. I'm in more of a routine where I know how to do the laundry faster.

Speaker 4 And like I do have a little bit more free time on my hands. But uh-oh, it's been months since I hung out with a friend.

Speaker 4 Do I even know how to hang out with a friend anymore? Like, what are we even going to talk about? Okay, that's what I want to focus on.

Speaker 2 It's like, was there a moment where you kind of looked up amidst the blur of children and obligations, all these legitimate things, of course,

Speaker 2 and said, like, oh my God, it's been months since I've seen Rob or Insert Other Friend here. Like, how did that realization come to you? And what did it feel like?

Speaker 4 Well,

Speaker 4 I started joking around with my wife. You know, look at me.
I'm like becoming one of these cliche data points of like the lonely American male.

Speaker 4 But it was still kind of a joke that I didn't quite take seriously. And then at a certain point, I just started feeling like, um,

Speaker 4 oh, wait a second, this is actually a problem.

Speaker 4 Like many, many new parents, I was arguing, you know, with my wife about our kids, you know, and like who did the late, you know, who did less of this responsibility and who is owed more of this.

Speaker 4 And it was, it was exactly the kind of emotional moment in my life that I really should have reached out to other friends who were going through the exact same thing that I was going through.

Speaker 4 Because I had other friends who had kids pretty much at the exact same time as I did.

Speaker 4 And I wasn't reaching out to them. I just, I wasn't,

Speaker 4 I had no one to, especially if like my wife and I were in a place where, you know, we had just gotten into an argument or something. Like, what am I going to do?

Speaker 4 Just like talk to my wife about how hard it was that I got into an argument.

Speaker 2 Let's take that sort of example.

Speaker 2 Would you like go to your phone and think about texting or calling a friend and then just be like, I mean, like, take me through that thought process. What would you do?

Speaker 4 I mean,

Speaker 4 it's funny. I would like

Speaker 4 go to my phone, be like, I'm going to text my friend and see, you know, if he's around to talk. And then like,

Speaker 4 I would be like,

Speaker 4 ah, do I really want to get into it? And then I'd be like, ah, like, do I really want to like impose my whining on my friend who's also got his own shit going on? And like, you know,

Speaker 4 you know what? Oh, look, there's a new episode of this podcast. Click.
And then I end up listening to a podcast.

Speaker 4 And I just ended up listening to a tremendous number of podcasts instead of calling friends.

Speaker 4 That is, that is actually like, it feels like the most cliched thing ever, but that is actually what happened to me.

Speaker 2 Tell me what show, what, what shows you were turning to? What were you listening to instead of calling a friend?

Speaker 4 So I started out actually listening to like podcasts about meditation because i had heard that meditation was good for you and like when you have small kids certainly of course and um and then like you know uh

Speaker 4 started going i i wouldn't call it a rabbit hole but i you know i started like eventually like i started listening to the joe rogan experience because

Speaker 4 he just has had everyone on his show and he's talking for like four and a half hours yeah yeah he's talking for a long long long time

Speaker 4 but um but you know like he'd have astrophysicists on his show. He'd have

Speaker 4 Michael Pollan, whose book I had just read and really wanted to hear more from Michael Pollen on his show.

Speaker 4 He had this Stanford professor talking about dopamine and

Speaker 4 addiction science. And, you know, so I would, I would listen to his shows just to, you know, try to pick up, you know, whatever, life hacks or whatever.
Totally.

Speaker 4 And, you know, again, the reason I'm doing this is because like I'm feeling overwhelmed, lonely, all of these feelings.

Speaker 4 And instead of relating to, you know, other people and calling a friend, I'm like, well, I can just solve these problems on my own.

Speaker 4 I'll just listen to some podcasts and I'll get the answers from the podcast. Yeah.
I can do this all on my own. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's this kind of

Speaker 2 rogue self-sufficiency, right? Like I'm not feeling so good emotionally or

Speaker 4 whatever.

Speaker 2 And I want to address this, but you know, I'm going to fix this myself by listening and learning and working on myself.

Speaker 4 There was something in the Rogan thing that appealed to me, which was basically like, stop making excuses, man up. You know, I'm using that in air quotes, but like man up.

Speaker 4 And basically the easiest thing you could do right now to change your life, all these podcasts said this,

Speaker 4 go work out.

Speaker 4 Go work out. Stop, get out of your head.
pump some goddamn iron. Yeah.
You know, and they all said this. And I was like,

Speaker 4 oh, that's interesting.

Speaker 4 Like, maybe I should try that you know like if you just take care of your body not only you're gonna get healthier but like everything else in your life is gonna fall into place yeah I think in a way part of the reason why it appealed so much because it's like

Speaker 4 I knew that even though it's really hard to like exercise uh all the time and you know lift heavy weights, I knew that on some level it was easier than doing deep emotional work.

Speaker 4 So I was like, well, all right, I'll just try that. And it was like,

Speaker 4 what was I doing in my late 30s and early 40s? Every spare moment I had,

Speaker 4 I was exercising. I was going to CrossFit.
I was running outside in Prospect Park through freezing cold rain

Speaker 4 because, you know, I had this idea that like, well, at least if I'm doing this, I'll, you know, I'll be able to like basically conquer whatever lonely feelings I'm having. Wow.
Yeah. And

Speaker 2 physical sublimation.

Speaker 4 Yes. And it was, it was the idea basically that like

Speaker 4 life

Speaker 4 was to be crushed, not to be enjoyed.

Speaker 2 I mean, and it also is a, it's a solitary, it's like go and lift this thing. And then when that gets easy, lift it heavier.

Speaker 2 The power is within you to change you. And it's still very like individual, focused, intra-personal.
So I can see why it would appeal.

Speaker 2 I mean, I guess I wonder, like, was this a conscious choice on your end to

Speaker 4 turn

Speaker 2 like towards these podcasts or working out or whatever instead of friends? Like, were you aware that you were diverting sort of in that way?

Speaker 4 I don't think I was aware of it.

Speaker 4 I think I was still

Speaker 4 telling myself,

Speaker 4 you know, you don't have time for friends because you're so busy.

Speaker 4 I was also in denial about being lonely, right? I just knew that

Speaker 4 I felt bad and I wanted to feel good. And I was like, oh, well, if I exercise, I'll feel good.
And I did feel good temporarily. There were the endorphins that they promised me would happen.
They came.

Speaker 4 Totally.

Speaker 2 I think that's a really important point. And I really think that there is still something very

Speaker 2 icky. And like, we're allergic to self-identifying as lonely because it's very vulnerable to admit that not only to yourself, but also out loud.
So first of all, thanks for saying that.

Speaker 2 But I understand why it would be shielded in these layers of, I'm not the kind of person that gets lonely.

Speaker 4 And also, like, look, there's this whole

Speaker 4 thing in the culture of the incel, right? The involuntary celibate. Totally.
The lonely guy sitting in his mom's basement on his computer. Like, that's the stereotype of the lonely man.

Speaker 4 And I think every man who feels lonely is like, terrified of being grouped in with that.

Speaker 2 Very interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 4 Like, if I, if I admit that I'm lonely, then you know, are people going to think I'm some kind of incel freak or whatever? Yeah. So I think that's a part of it.

Speaker 4 And you're going to use every adjective except for lonely.

Speaker 2 What were you afraid of in calling, you know, when you went to call a friend and then diverted to the podcast? What were you, what were you worried would happen? Like, what was stopping you?

Speaker 4 I was afraid that

Speaker 4 my friends would

Speaker 4 think that I was needy.

Speaker 4 I'm not like

Speaker 4 a bro. I grew up with like a super in a super feminist household.

Speaker 4 Even I

Speaker 4 had so deeply internalized the idea

Speaker 4 that showing weakness as a man

Speaker 4 is tantamount to not being a man.

Speaker 4 And I just didn't want to not be a man.

Speaker 4 I was afraid that if I called and said, hey man, like I'm really lonely and

Speaker 4 it makes me sad to be alone and I just needed to tell you.

Speaker 4 I was afraid that they'd be like, oh, God, what, that's so soft. Like, are you kidding me? Because, you know, again, I've been conditioned to think that basically like.

Speaker 4 The main ways to relate to other dudes, unless it's 4 a.m. and you've been warming up a lot at a sleepover party.

Speaker 4 And the main way of just like emoting generally as a man, I find like

Speaker 4 there there are two modes that are acceptable, kidding around and anger, right? Like you're allowed to

Speaker 4 fight other dudes, but you're not allowed to hug a dude. So either I'm allowed to be angry or I'm allowed to joke around.

Speaker 4 So if I call my friend and I'm just sincere and talking about like the sadness in my heart or whatever, is he going to think that I'm like, you know,

Speaker 4 I could use many different derogatory ways to say less of a man.

Speaker 2 That's so interesting. And I really appreciate you laying it out.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I'm thinking about how you talked about when you were younger. You had all these deeply emotional conversations with your friends.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking specifically about those emails you and Rob sent to each other. You said that Rob is one of your closest friends.
Were you in touch with him at all?

Speaker 2 Like, how had your relationship changed over the years?

Speaker 4 Um, at this point, Rob

Speaker 4 is

Speaker 4 doing a postdoc fellowship in North North Carolina.

Speaker 4 So even further away than Boston, obviously.

Speaker 4 I am mostly communicating with Rob through basically like a group email chat that we've had going now for like almost 20 years.

Speaker 4 And so I'm communicating with him and other friends through this, through this group chat, calling him less and less and less over the years.

Speaker 4 A subset of this email list, they're like kind of what we like to call caucuses in the email list. There's the fitness caucus, the guys who like have a, they're like little side groups.

Speaker 4 And there, there was a bike trip group. I actually like was one of the people that initiated this group.
And I said, let's do a bike trip, you know, once a year.

Speaker 4 And, and that bike trip continued for many, many years, but I stopped going on it.

Speaker 4 I had kids and, you know, I made all the excuses why I was too busy. And

Speaker 4 once my life started to stabilize a little bit when my kids got a little bit older, I told myself, like, I'm really going to go on the bike trip this year.

Speaker 4 And I would tell the biking group, I'm coming this year. I'm coming this year.
And then I would like flake out at the last second and be like, I can't, sorry, guys. I can't do it.

Speaker 4 And then like in 2021,

Speaker 4 I was like, I'm definitely going this year. You know what? Like,

Speaker 4 I have like really.

Speaker 4 at this point sidelined my friendships to like a degree that is like it just way it's gone way too far even recognize you yeah so it was like it was Christmas break and I met up with um basically the crew that goes on this bike trip at at a bar in Boston

Speaker 4 and a lot of these guys were guys who got had gone every year for the past decade and I hadn't been on one for like eight years

Speaker 4 and

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 basically kept trying to bring up the bike trip proactively because I really wanted to demonstrate I'm I'm coming this year. Right.
I know I flaked out in the past, but I'm coming this year.

Speaker 4 And Rob basically was like,

Speaker 4 yeah, whatever, you're not coming. Like, like you always say you're going to come and you never come.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 one thing led to another.

Speaker 4 And he brought up a particularly egregious example of when I had flaked out

Speaker 4 on the bike trip.

Speaker 2 But Rob brought this up.

Speaker 4 Yeah. And it was just like, you know, like, like, you never fully accounted for

Speaker 4 what a dick move that was, frankly.

Speaker 4 And then I started getting defensive. I'm like, why are you bringing up some shit that happened nearly a decade ago? Like, you know, I'm in my 40s now.

Speaker 4 Like, you know, like, yes, it was kind of a dick. It was definitely a dick move.
Let's just talk about the logistics of this biking trip. Can we, please? Can we just talk about this trip?

Speaker 4 And eventually one thing led to another and like the words got more and more heated.

Speaker 4 And I am not a violent person. In fact, like i've i have actually never been in a fight in my entire life

Speaker 4 and i don't know if it was like listening to too much of the joe rogan stuff or whatever but like

Speaker 4 i just said to him at one point i said he was getting really close to my face and i said i said if you don't get the fuck out of my face i'm gonna knock every fucking one of your teeth out whoa And I meant it.

Speaker 4 I was so mad. And I've never said anything like that in my entire life.

Speaker 4 And this, this was something I was saying to like my dear beloved, one of my oldest friends, my most beloved friends. And

Speaker 4 it got broken up by the other guys before anything led to actual blows. We went our separate ways.
And like, I was, I was really pissed. And

Speaker 2 when you were like leaving the bar,

Speaker 2 You were angry, sure. Were you embarrassed? Were you sad? Like, what were the emotions in your brain immediately after?

Speaker 4 I mean the the the

Speaker 4 the emotions immediately after were just anger at him

Speaker 4 because it was easier to feel angry yeah than to feel emotions yeah um uh it was easier for me to just be like it's all his fault like he he picked a fight with me for no reason

Speaker 4 he's turning up some shit from a decade ago you know what's wrong with this guy yeah I mean truth truth be told like there was a point at which I was like you know what fuck it I don't need to be friends with this guy anymore wow yeah like which is looking back at him like I can't believe that that thought even crossed my mind.

Speaker 4 But it was like, it was actually easier for me to just, just move on and not be friends than to like have a heart-to-heart conversation about the feelings that were involved in that exchange.

Speaker 2 I understand that.

Speaker 4 And yeah. And, and that's when I started reflecting on like

Speaker 4 the fact that I hadn't gone on any trip for eight years.

Speaker 4 And I started just thinking more and more like about how much I had deprioritized friendship and then how much I had

Speaker 4 as a result of years of deprioritizing friendship, how much I had gotten accustomed to being alone and almost being intimidated by the idea of like trying to rekindle my friendships.

Speaker 4 And so, I would say, like, that fight was the real precipitating moment where I was like,

Speaker 4 I have made every other thing in that is supposedly good for your mental health a priority. Like, I've done all of the things.
I don't drink alcohol anymore. I exercise.
I meditate. I was in therapy.

Speaker 4 And yet, I didn't do the number one most important thing, which was to hang out with real people in person and prioritize friendship.

Speaker 4 And I think that was like the tipping point for me where I was just like, I have to try to

Speaker 4 change it.

Speaker 2 When we come back, Sam takes steps to reconnect with his friends. That's next.

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Speaker 2 So you have this moment, you have this fight.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 it sounds extremely, it sounds clarifying for you. Like, I need to make a change.

Speaker 2 And I've maybe needed to make one for a while, but I'm going to be brave and try to make this change. What did that look like?

Speaker 2 Like, how did you try to start to reprioritize and recenter friendship in your life? And also, did you go on the bike trip?

Speaker 4 The bike trip that year

Speaker 4 ended up not happening. And I think in part because of that, that ugly experience at the bar.

Speaker 4 But what did it look like when I started addressing it? It's funny. You know, I

Speaker 4 found a podcast.

Speaker 2 Not podcasting.

Speaker 4 Come on, Sam.

Speaker 4 But this was a totally different kind of podcast. This podcast has a very explicit purpose.
Podcast is called Man of the Year.

Speaker 4 It has a very explicit purpose, which is to offer advice to men who are struggling with loneliness.

Speaker 2 Okay, well, as long as you find exactly the right thing for you. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And I needed to hear it said out loud in like very sort of like bro plain language, right?

Speaker 4 So like one of the things that really resonated with me was be the friend. Be the friend means like don't wait for the other guy to call you.
Just call

Speaker 4 and ask them to hang out, right?

Speaker 4 And the beautiful thing about listening to this show is that like. It's easy for guys to listen to who are not into the touchy-feely stuff of like, you know, get deep inside your vulnerability.

Speaker 4 instead, they're just like, all right, guys, guys, guys, it's very simple. Here's some life hacks.
All right. Here's some hacks for friendship.
All right. TCS, okay.
Stands for text weekly.

Speaker 4 Text weekly. Call monthly.

Speaker 4 And see quarterly. Whoa, okay.
TCS. So all you have to do is see your friends four times a year.
call them once a month and text them once a week. And like, that's all you have to do.

Speaker 4 You set it in your reminders and it's like, and then because it's in your reminders, you just have to do it.

Speaker 4 You know, so that was like one of the more kind of hack hack based tips that they gave that I did kind of find helpful yeah and essentially this is the antidote to my fear of seeming needy or weak or whiny or whatever and by the way once I started calling my friends and you know it turns out gee who would have thought they're totally willing to talk about emotions like men do want to emotionally connect yeah like no one has been like bro like sorry i don't i don't talk about sadness bro i only talk about sports.

Speaker 4 Sorry.

Speaker 2 Do you remember like an early phone call or even an early hangout? Were you nervous? Like, you were re-entering this place you hadn't been?

Speaker 4 Yeah. There was a specific

Speaker 4 friend who was

Speaker 4 one of my college roommates, a guy who had lived abroad for a long time and we fell kind of out of touch, who moved. back to the city and, you know, lived not that far from me.

Speaker 4 And yet I still, and i loved this guy but like i still hadn't seen him you know in a really really long time even though he now lived near me i'm making the effort and then he's like all right well you know there's this concert that i want to go to in in uh greenwich village and i'm like

Speaker 4 okay

Speaker 4 all right like i really don't actually want to go because i'm like nervous

Speaker 4 because I'm out of out of practice, basically having, you know, being

Speaker 4 a friend.

Speaker 4 Like, are we we gonna have nothing to talk about is it gonna feel forced whatever and it's the winter and i'm like oh it's gonna be like it was like slushy on the ground i'm like i have to take the train all the way and so i didn't really want to go right but again because like i'm i'm now like you know what you're making an effort to do this you're gonna you're gonna go you know do it man you know i have to like psych myself up and um and i and i go and

Speaker 4 Of course, it's totally easy.

Speaker 4 Did it feel forced? Not at all. It's totally easy and natural.
I'm like asking him stuff about his work that I've never asked him before.

Speaker 4 And then like I started to tell him a little bit about like the struggles that I'd had in this period where I was, where I was like feeling lonely.

Speaker 4 And also like, like my loneliness was definitely affecting my creativity.

Speaker 4 And because I was in the creative dumps, like it made me even less wanting to hang out with people because I was like, well, I don't want to drag them down because I have writer's block or whatever.

Speaker 4 And I started to tell him about all that stuff. Wait, hold on.

Speaker 2 That feels like a big deal for you. To say that out loud to someone

Speaker 2 that's not your wife, like, that feels big to share that with another guy.

Speaker 4 And you know what's funny though? Like, it didn't,

Speaker 4 it, it didn't actually feel hard to do it. And he was just like, listen, man, like, this is, you're a creative person.
Like, this is part of the, the, the path. And, and we all struggle.

Speaker 4 And, like, it's totally, it's okay that you really struggle.

Speaker 4 It was so nice to hear. And, and we had such a great night.
Like, we, we,

Speaker 4 we had like enormous like ice cream cones at Van Lewin. It's like way too many best night ever.
There's like way too many scoops of ice cream.

Speaker 4 And he orders the waffle cone. I'm like, all right, I'm getting the waffle cone too.
So we got the biggest ice creams ever. We go to this concert.
It was such a great concert.

Speaker 4 We knew all the, like, all the words came back to us. I really didn't want the night to end, but like, it was getting close to the midnight train.
I literally had to get on that train.

Speaker 4 I was going to be like stuck in the city. And I remember calling, calling my wife.
I remember saying, like, I just had like the best night ever. She's like, Well, what happened?

Speaker 4 What did you, why was it so great? I was like, I don't know, just like, it was just so great.

Speaker 4 And I, like, I kept saying these general things, but it was the very act of just like being with this old beloved friend. Yeah.

Speaker 4 And, and even just getting like a little bit of validation and even just sharing a little bit of emotional stuff that just felt like

Speaker 4 so good.

Speaker 4 I remember like having this feeling of of being on the train, looking out of the window and like seeing

Speaker 4 the like blur of the lights almost looking like, you know, ribbons of light.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 I just like remember this feeling of like, I'm standing in front of a door that is, that felt like it was closed for so long. And now the door is open.
And I can see through the door.

Speaker 4 And like on the other side of the door are like my friends and they're like waiting. They're waiting for me to come hang out.

Speaker 4 And like all I have to do is be the friend and like call them and go hang out. And

Speaker 4 I remember like feeling

Speaker 4 really

Speaker 4 emotional, like having that image in my mind and thinking like,

Speaker 4 how did I...

Speaker 4 How did I let myself

Speaker 4 go for so many years without

Speaker 4 connecting to all these people who I love and like how did I convince myself that that was like

Speaker 4 the right path

Speaker 4 after years of

Speaker 4 really grinding and like you know doing like insane amounts of exercise that didn't make me feel any less lonely after after so long of that like finally like realizing like oh this is it this is this is the answer like all I have to do is hang out more.

Speaker 4 And, like, nothing,

Speaker 4 nothing has ever

Speaker 4 worked in terms of making me feel happy, like, like being with the friends that I love and being in community. And, like,

Speaker 4 this is the miracle cure.

Speaker 4 Where's Rob?

Speaker 2 How are you two now?

Speaker 2 How did you walk through the door with him?

Speaker 4 We did exchange

Speaker 4 some,

Speaker 4 we exchanged some heartfelt emails,

Speaker 4 and then eventually we got on the phone and

Speaker 4 had what I was worried was going to be a really awkward, really hard conversation, and was a totally wonderful conversation.

Speaker 4 And I really like it, it was the kind of thing where I could have stayed on the phone for 10 hours and I just had to get off because I was late to dinner and everyone was waiting for me. After

Speaker 4 that call,

Speaker 4 it is just,

Speaker 4 I already already feel so much closer to him. Um,

Speaker 4 you have your friend back, yeah, yeah, yeah, it does feel like that to me. I hope it feels like that to him, too.

Speaker 2 We'll send this podcast to easy.

Speaker 4 Okay,

Speaker 2 you've mentioned you have a son, right?

Speaker 4 Yeah,

Speaker 2 have you talked about friendship with your son?

Speaker 4 Uh,

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 think a lot about

Speaker 4 how to,

Speaker 4 how do I raise a

Speaker 4 boy who

Speaker 4 won't be limited in the way that I was? It's hard because I watch movies with him. Like I've been introducing him to some of my favorite movies from when I was a kid.

Speaker 4 Like one of my favorite movies was Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure, which great movie. It's a friendship comedy.
It's a friend, it's a buddy comedy.

Speaker 4 And I showed that to my son because like part of what I love about that movie is that I think it models like what male friendship can be like.

Speaker 4 Like they have all kinds of shared lingo and they have shared hand motions and you know and i'm watching that movie with him and there's this moment that was like really discordant where um

Speaker 4 it appears that ted has been murdered by by the one of these knights that's been chasing them and bill stumbles upon his body and he's like oh my god like ted what no please like this can't be and like he's like freaking out and then like a second later ted emerges from a side door and it's like i'm still alive and then bill is like relieved and overjoyed.

Speaker 4 And he's like, oh my God, like, I thought you were dead and you're alive. This is the best moment ever.
And they hug and they're like, you know, he like nestles his chin into, you know, Ted's neck.

Speaker 4 And they're like, you know, it's a moment of love. It's a moment of love between two friends.
And, you know,

Speaker 4 they hug for like a second and then they like get startled and pull away.

Speaker 4 And they look at each other and they say a word that I'm not going to say because it's an ugly word, but it's a word that starts with F,

Speaker 4 you know, that is a derogatory term. term oh my gosh and

Speaker 4 and I'm watching though my son and I you know I I

Speaker 4 he was confused by that he was like what happened there and I just I didn't want to explain it to him

Speaker 4 but it was like

Speaker 4 like that's how I got to the point where I alienated myself from

Speaker 4 my friendships

Speaker 4 like it's stuff like that which you know my son

Speaker 4 Like, I'm sure that my son got the kind of message that like you're not really supposed to get too close to your male friends.

Speaker 4 If you're a guy, like you can't get that close because that could mean something.

Speaker 4 And it was right around that time that, you know, my daughter, who's, who's a couple of years younger,

Speaker 4 you know, was talking about how she wanted to marry her best friend all the time. And

Speaker 4 my son was like, yeah, I want to marry, you know, my best friend too.

Speaker 4 And

Speaker 4 and he used to say like, I love you to this friend. And he used to always give, give a long hug and say, like, I love you.
I can't wait to see you again. And I remember asking him,

Speaker 4 do you,

Speaker 4 you know, do you still want to marry

Speaker 4 that friend? And then he's like, nah, like, cause I don't want him to think I'm sus.

Speaker 4 And I didn't even know that he knew the word sus.

Speaker 4 And I just was like so heartbroken by that because I felt like he should be able to say he loves his friend.

Speaker 4 And why, if my daughter is allowed to say that she wants to marry her friend and that's not, there's no stigma around that at all. Like, why can't my son say that? Can I ask you?

Speaker 2 Yeah. Can you say I love you to your friend?

Speaker 4 And do you now?

Speaker 4 I

Speaker 4 have said it

Speaker 4 more and more. I used to not be able to say it at all.
And now I do say it. And I still kind of say it fast.
I'm like, I love you, man. Love you.
Right at the end of the phone call, but I say it.

Speaker 4 And it does feel good to say it. And I'm working on saying it a little bit slower.
And I would love to be able to look my friend in the eye and say, Hey, man, I love you.

Speaker 4 Thanks for, you know, thanks for like coming out tonight. I really love you.
Like, I'd love to be able to do that. I'm not quite the Jedi yet.
Can I say?

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think you're going to get there.
I hope so. I know you're going to get there.

Speaker 4 All right. Well, you're giving me some confidence.
I'm going to try it.

Speaker 2 Sam Graham Felson. Thank you so much.
Thank you for this conversation. Thanks.

Speaker 4 Thanks Thanks for having me.

Speaker 2 Thanks for listening, everyone. Like we said at the top, Modern Love is only in the daily feed for a few more weeks.

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Speaker 2 The Modern Love team is Amy Pearl, Christina Josa, Davis Land, Elisa Gutierrez, Emily Lang, Jen Poyant, Lynn Levy, Reva Goldberg, and Sarah Curtis. This episode was produced by Amy Pearl.

Speaker 2 It was edited by Davis Land and Jen Poyant.

Speaker 2 The Modern Love theme music is by Dan Powell. Original music in this episode by Dan Powell, Alicia Ba'itoupe, Diane Wong, Marion Lozano, and Rowan Nemisto.

Speaker 2 This episode was mixed by Daniel Ramirez with studio support from Maddie Masiello and Nick Pittman. The Modern Love column is edited by Daniel Jones.
Mia Lee is the editor of Modern Love Projects.

Speaker 2 If you'd like to submit an essay or a tiny love story to the New York Times, we have the instructions in our show notes. I'm Anna Martin.
Thanks for listening.

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