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I'm Jane Marie, and this is The Dream, a show where we do a lot of debunking about science, healthcare, foods, vitamins, minerals, etc.

And when you do a bunch of research about any one of those things, the internet brings you friends like this.

My name is Dr.

Kim Thug, as I am known on the internet, and I am a recently PhD

graduate, synthetic organic chemist, who goes online and explains chemistry to people who otherwise might not want to know anything about chemistry.

Because I'm really good at sneaking up on you with chemistry and not letting you know that you're learning chemistry until you've already learned something.

And then you're like, bam, wow, he really got me with that.

Yep.

Wanda, you already brought up one of my questions.

Why do people not want to know chemistry?

Honestly, I just think it's because it gets, I think a lot of people get like scared away from science when they're, when they're in like early childhood education, you know, like elementary school.

First of all, I don't know how early most people end up getting introduced to science as a subject in school.

I think that varies across the the board.

And whether or not a school even like offers it also depends on certain things.

But then you also got this, like, I don't know, at least for when I was a kid, I felt like it was like they were very quick to be like, oh, you're good at math.

You'll be good at science.

Here, we're going to like push that on you.

And then, but I like kind of showed an interest and an aptitude that maybe some other kids would have had if they had been exposed to it in a certain type of way, you know, but like I was kind of like shuffled into it a little bit because I, I, I, I expressed an interest kind of on my own.

Um, but I feel like a lot of people don't like, I, I, I, I just, I feel like a lot of people just like, they don't get exposed to it early enough, okay, such that by the time they get introduced to it, it kind of, it requires you to think about things in a way that are a little harder to do if you haven't been introduced to it earlier on, you know?

Yeah, I don't think I took chemistry until,

I don't know, late in high school or anything like that.

I remember it being like environmental science and like geology, like rocks and

some biology.

Like

I remember memorizing every single bone of the body and that sort of thing.

A lot of anatomy.

I think I tried to do that and failed.

So kudos to you.

I absolutely could not do that.

It's one of my special skills.

It means nothing.

It helps me in no way whatsoever to be able to memorize states in their capital.

You know, know, like whatever.

Who cares?

I can just look things up.

But

yeah.

Well, you know, it's funny.

It's funny.

I, cause I feel like the fact that we can just look things up now to some degree, like messes with

us doing things, you know, like I, I am a, I was a, I wasn't, I didn't get on on the internet very until relatively late into my childhood.

And it really wasn't until college that like I started, like somebody straight up people straight up had to tell me and even to even to this day my wife has to remind me sometimes that you you know you can just look it up right

because

like because i just i won't think to google i think i must be much older than you because when i said just look it up i'm thinking like in an encyclopedia on my shelf or one of the many atlases that i own or almanacs or whatever No, yeah, no, but like, that's the thing.

Like, I have a ton of just like textbooks and like, you know, reference materials because I am still very accustomed to like going into a book.

And if I don't have the book, then, you know, we can pontificate and have an interesting conversation about it.

Maybe we learn some things, you know, and maybe we just accept that like we got close to the conclusion, but like, you know, and that's just kind of what it is.

You know, you remember to ask somebody that you think might know.

But now that you can look stuff up, it's just

almost overwhelming.

Yeah.

Oh, God.

Google's AI bot.

Like, I don't even have to go to a second location anymore.

When you hit Google, it'll be like,

this is the answer.

I have to remind myself.

Are you sure?

I have to remind myself to just like scroll past that sometimes.

It's like,

let me look at a couple of sources and then I'll see what the AI bot had to say about it.

Well, one nice thing about being connected to the internet is that I can watch your videos, which teach me a lot.

So what was your path to your degree?

Because you're a doctor as of very recently.

Right, right.

So I am not a medical doctor, just to be clear.

I am the less interesting kind of doctor to most people.

I am a PhD holding synthetic organic chemist, which means that I am a, allegedly, a subject matter expert in the art of making molecules that are mostly made of carbon atoms.

So like, you know, think of your medicines, think of your plastics, think of pretty much more or less

90% of the materials around you probably.

You know, I studied the ways in which these atoms come together and make molecules and why they do it.

And of course, I do not know all of it because there's just too much.

Yeah.

But, you know, I know enough to be able to share some things.

And I do enjoy sharing these things.

But in order to get this degree, in addition to actually having to learn some things, I did have to do some like fundamental research as a part of getting a PhD.

You got to do the whole like add new knowledge to the field thing,

which makes sense.

You know, it's masterwork sort of situation.

And so I did a, I did an I worked on a number of projects, but the two that I, that ended up becoming publications were, to put it kind of simply, the first one was trying to figure out how much energy is necessary for a particular part of a molecule to move in a specific way.

Why this is interesting is because if you know how much energy it takes for that particular part of the molecule to move in a certain way, you know whether or not other molecules that have similar arrangements of atoms will have similar energies.

And sometimes those molecules are like medicines.

And if this part of that molecule moves in the way that you don't want it to, then that medicine stops being medicine and becomes poison.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Say more about that real quick.

What do you mean?

Famous example that.

Explain your entire PhD thesis to me in five seconds.

Go.

Just kidding.

I'm going to say five seconds.

I don't know.

Five minutes.

We'll give you five minutes.

But well, that was that was like one half of it fundamentally.

And I mean, like, I say it that way.

You know, I I admit I'm saying it that way to make it a little bit more marketable.

But these kinds of studies on like the kinetics of racemization, if you will, are part of like understanding whether or not a certain drug or medicine or any other molecule really is going to stay the way that you want it to stay when you like heat it up or it gets, it's some other substance comes in contact with it.

Got it.

There's a story of thalidomide that I think is a fairly well-known story at this point of something similar to this.

We've spoken about it on the show before because it kind of feeds the fear of pharmaceuticals.

So yeah, can you brush us up on that?

So the medication was developed kind of

before we had as thorough an understanding that we do now of how important it is the way these molecules look in three-dimensional space.

You know, so like most people use hands to demonstrate this concept.

If you look at your left hand and you look at your right hand and you try to put one on top of the other with the palms both facing up, you'll realize that you kind of can't do that.

And that's because your hands exhibit this special type of property called chirality, where they can't really be imposed over each other because of how your hands are attached in three-dimensional space.

There's a lot of molecules that are like this, where like one of them is like your left hand and one of them is like your right hand and the left hand does one thing and the right hand one can do something completely different in a biological system because that's the key difference.

In most cases, when it comes to that left hand versus right hand thing, the molecule cannot just easily go from the left hand version to the right hand version.

Usually if you have one version, it's stuck as that one version and you have the other version and it's stuck as that version.

Otherwise, the two molecules, the left-hand version and the right-hand version, will frequently have a lot of the same properties.

And it's kind of difficult to separate the two.

And this is basically what happened with lidomide.

When they made the medication, they made one of the handed versions.

They just call it the left-hand version.

And that version is great at curing morning sickness.

And also, I think at this point, the drug still gets used because if the person taking it isn't carrying a child, then it's actually kind of fine.

Because I think really the only problem was the birth defects, right?

Yeah.

Though, you know, the left-hand version, medicine.

The right-hand version causes birth defects.

The problem is that you can go from the left to the right-hand version when the drug is in your body.

And we didn't know that, you know?

And I guess this kind of touches on like where I feel like a lot of people during that public health crisis we had a little while ago.

I'm not sure if you heard about it.

A lot of people.

A lot of people felt some type of way about like, oh, the CDC, they don't know anything.

You know, it's just, you know, they're saying this and then they're saying that and they're saying the third and you can't trust these organizations.

And I'm like, wait a minute, y'all, y'all do realize y'all been trusting these organizations for a while now, right?

Like you don't, maybe you don't realize that you've been trusting them, but like you've, you've been counting on them to give you accurate information about getting you a flu shot and things like that, you know, and like all these other things.

So like, why is it all of a sudden?

And I think this kind of touches back on like kind of what you asked me earlier about like

why people end up steering away from science and like why people end up steering away from, from, you know, even just like chemistry in particular, but science in general is because there's a degree I feel like to which people don't.

And even I had to learn this.

Like in the course of getting my PhD, I had to learn this.

Like

we don't know things until we know them.

You know what I mean?

Like, it's not like like, we don't make up these rules.

We watch things happen and we're like, we got to figure out why that happens.

And it just takes the time it takes, you know, and like unfortunately during that public health crisis, you know a lot of there was a lot of things that we didn't know that we needed to try and figure out and we were trying but i think because of how people get presented science as a thing to learn where it's like it's this body of facts that are just known and you just got to memorize it you know you just kind of got to like learn this and know it and that's just it i think that gives people a false perception of what science ultimately is.

Yes.

You know what I mean?

I've been thinking about that a lot lately as we're in a new public health crisis.

Wait, which one?

I don't know, RFK Jr., for example,

who doesn't, who fundamentally does not understand what science is, like that there are rules that are universal, you know, to doing good science.

Yeah.

And he has just decided that that's not a thing anymore, even though it's been thousands of years of a thing,

that all of a sudden him and a couple of his homies are like in charge of everybody now in this country.

And they're going to be like, science schmeans.

Anyways, my friend said, no.

Oh my God.

No, yeah.

It's, it's, oh, I think I was so, I think I was, I think I literally said this, said something like something about this to my wife, like maybe like an hour ago, where it's like, you know, alternative facts only go so far when there are actual material facts.

You know what I mean?

Yeah.

Like you can rewrite history all you want.

You can't rewrite chemistry.

You can't rewrite biology.

You can't rewrite physics.

Like we didn't make the, again, we didn't make this stuff up.

This stuff all works and happens regardless of whether or not you acknowledge the rules through which it all happens.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Sun's going to rise, sun's going to set, planets going to photosynthesize.

You know what I mean?

Like, you don't have to understand any of that for it to happen right you know right if you think of science as just this body of like oh you know finger wagging you can't do what you want then yeah you're you're

you're in for a rude awakening yeah

um when you first gave the analogy of the left hand right hand and how molecules can change inside your body the first thing i thought of was is there like bleach and something that will kill you ammonia oh yeah and bleach that which separately will not kill you but if you put them near each other, they're gonna, you die.

Or if you inhale.

Just to be clear, like ammonia and strong enough concentration is in fact going to be bad for you.

And bleach, also, you definitely don't want that on your skin.

Like, just, just, I don't want to, I want to put it out there that both of these are.

not exactly unhazardous substance.

They still need to be treated with respect for sure, but they also should, yeah, absolutely never be mixed with each other.

Absolutely not.

Because the gas that comes off of them.

Yeah, yeah, no.

First of all, why do people mix bleach with things?

I just don't understand why people feel the need to mix bleach with things.

They don't just mix it, they drink it.

That also happened during our public health crisis.

Well, because the president said it was a good idea in a news conference.

And if you couldn't drink it, you could just inject it straight to your veins and it would kill the virus.

You know, I heard, you know, I know, I know that was a thing.

I don't remember if I ever actually heard that anybody actually injected themselves with bleach.

We got a call from a daughter of a person who drank bleach to death.

I'm not going to sit here and tell anybody that drinking, that drinking bleach is anything other than a terrible idea.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like,

what?

No, no.

But I mean, you can't be surprised, though.

You, you've done a lot of educating around not eating borax,

right?

I, yeah, I don't, you know,

I didn't have the Mr.

Yuck stickers as a kid.

I just kind of, there was certain things things like, that doesn't smell like something that belongs in my body.

No, that just smells like I shouldn't, you know, oh, that came in a box that doesn't, that's not from like where the food comes from.

So it's probably not food.

You know what I mean?

Like, there's just certain things that, like, and I don't, I don't want to sound mean or disparaging, you know, but like, I just, I appreciate that, you know, my parents were, my parents were pretty solid.

They at least taught me that there are certain things that you're just not supposed to eat.

You know what I mean?

If it's under the sink, it doesn't go in the mouth.

Yeah, I'm just like, you know, but again, like, it's, it is easy to poke fun, but I, I, I shudder to think about like how deeply underinformed people have to be to actively ingest

chlorine bleach.

Because it's, and this has, first of all, has nothing, has little to do with me being a chemist.

It just smells bad.

It just smells like something you shouldn't be, you shouldn't be putting in your body, right?

Right.

You know, so there should be that aversion.

And I understand, but, you know, but

I guess really, though, you, I skip to the point.

People get convinced that things are a good idea.

And that happens because people don't understand like underlying facts related to the situation.

Right.

And even to the extent that people are encouraged or do on their own, go try to read up or look up something else.

We exist in a time where there's as much incorrect information as there is correct information.

And if you don't have enough of a fundamental understanding of like, I guess, chemistry in this particular case, but also biology even,

then if you try to go to like actual primary sources to get some information about it, it's going to be really hard for you.

And I understand that because I do that sometimes with things that I'm not any kind of an expert on, like programming and internet stuff.

Clearly, I don't know much about how it works, but I have a fundamental rudimentary understanding.

I know that it's not just a series of tubes for anyone who gets that reference.

But like, you know, I recognize my lack of understanding, but because I know enough about something else, I know that there's a lot of things I don't know.

And I think about that, but it's, it's easy to get taken in by information that feels right.

You know, like I had to learn the skill of like when I'm looking up something.

If I find a source, even if I think it's a reputable source that I usually would rely on and it agrees with me wholesale, I immediately am like, nope, got to find another source because I know I can't trust this because it agrees exactly with what I'm saying.

I have have to at least find one or two other things that disagree so that i can critically evaluate the opinions you know but that's work that's mad work people work like two jobs you know i mean it really this is what your doctor is supposed to be for right but you know i i mean i guess we've just gotten rid of the idea of an expert but i've always relied upon experts and thought oh this person spent their entire adult life to like understand this one thing that i need a brain to understand for my life to function well like i can change a tire okay And I can change my oil, not to brag, but

I can do, I can do one of those.

But if I had to, you know what I mean?

Like, I don't know how an entire car works, every part of the car.

Like, when I go boop, boop, with my keys, like, I'm not exactly sure what specifically is happening there.

And I don't need to know.

That's the whole point of subject matter experts.

And a lot of this is like intersecting with health.

We did a whole season on wellness and like the vitamin and supplement industry and

just all the kind of kooky things people are doing with their bodies because they don't believe doctors know anything anymore.

Which continues to make me sad.

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Sidelined.

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Do you mind if we just run through a number of the topics that you've kind of looked at?

I will do my best to be concise.

First of all, there's all kinds of waters out there right now.

I understand water to be two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen.

Is that correct?

H2O,

right?

That is, in fact, fact, a water molecule, yes.

Okay.

An oxygen atom with two hydrogen atoms attached, bonded to it.

And drinking that is good for your body.

Correct.

Okay.

You need water.

What are these waters?

Does it help for water to not be water?

Or?

Okay.

Does it help for water to not be water?

All right.

Well, just new and improved.

Water.

Like, it's just water.

It's why would we have to improve upon water?

We don't.

Okay.

Look, no, let me, let me, sorry.

In my humble non-medical professional opinion, I'm pretty confident that as long as the water does not have a bunch of dissolved, unhealthy contaminants in it of some kind, you know what I mean?

Like, otherwise

it's water.

Your body's probably going to use it.

It's going to be fine.

So hydrogen water and alkaline water are not directly related and they're two separate things.

And one of them, in my again opinion is very much mostly a scam uh or not a scam i don't want to say it's a scam it's not a scam it's people i think trying to take advantage of a potential market right

by overplaying the value of alkaline water So some people who sell it will tell you that you're alkalizing your body and that has all these kinds of properties that's good for you.

And that is, I'm pretty sure, unequivocally false.

Like you cannot change significantly the pH of various aspects of your body simply by drinking water that is like slightly basic or alkaline.

Because aren't you pretty acidic on the inside immediately?

Like your stomach?

So yeah.

So first and foremost, it is important that people understand that the level of how acidic or alkaline any part of your body is is generally determined by this number called the pH.

And the pH, to try and put it simply, the closer it is to seven, the closer it is to being neither acidic or basic.

If it's between zero and seven, it's acidic.

If it's between seven and 14, it's basic or alkaline.

Okay.

Basicity and alkalinity are kind of often used interchangeably.

So just to be clear, so when people talk about alkaline water, what they're talking about is water that in some way, shape, or form has a pH that is above seven.

That is to say, it is some kind of basic.

Now,

I feel like I've seen bottles in stores of so-called alkaline water with a pH of like 8.5 or even like 9.

And that to me is bordering on dangerous for your mouth.

Could be a little caustic.

Okay.

You know, I mean, like, you'd probably be fine.

I don't even want to say you'll probably be fine, but like.

It's not a good idea.

I don't, I don't, I don't think so.

I mean, like, I believe that the core of the claim of alkaline water being more beneficial than other water comes from the fact that when when you have water that has appropriate minerals dissolved in it for your body, because that's one of the other things you need water for, right?

Those sodiums and chlorides and all that other good stuff, it will have a slightly alkaline pH.

But I don't know that just like taking a machine that uses electrolysis to convert some of the water into just straight up hydroxide ions, which is what would also raise the pH of the water.

I don't really know that that's going to do anything for you because it's not about the alkalinity that is makes it helpful.

It's just the alkalinity is like a side consequence of the water having things in it.

Electrolytes.

Yeah, exactly.

So you know, there's that.

So that's, you know,

I do think that a lot of that, you know, the whole alkaline diet thing, I'm pretty confident has more or less been debunked by people who are more of an expert in this field than me.

But just from my rudimentary understanding of like chemistry and equilibriums and biology and the fact that like your stomach is around a pH of like one or two, right?

Because like it's full of stomach acid, but your blood is around a pH of like 7.4

or 3, something in that neighborhood.

Aren't we cool?

Yeah.

Our bodies are amazing systems.

And that's part of what makes me so sad when people drink bleach.

I'm like, yo, your body is dope, son.

Like you don't have like people like, oh, I got parasites or whatever.

I'm like, you probably don't.

You probably just need to eat a little more fiber.

Yeah.

If you do, you can get them out a different way.

Yeah.

But you know, it'll, it'll tell.

But anyway, sorry, I'm getting a little off topic.

So now that's alkaline water.

Now, hydrogen water is not the same thing.

Hydrogen therapy is an interesting area of research that is currently evolving and developing.

What's really exciting about it, from my perspective, is that hydrogen gas, for the most, aside from the fact that it's like

unreasonably flammable as a gas,

like Hindenburg, Bink Hindenburg.

Well, lots of you listeners out there aren't old enough to remember the Hindenburg.

Yeah, the Hindenburg.

You have the famous example of hydrogen gas being way too flammable.

It was a blimp.

It was a very fancy blimp.

It was a blimp with fancy catering inside.

They had real china dishes that you ate off of in the little tiny bottom part of the blimp.

Have you ever seen pictures of the inside of the Hindenburg passenger cabin?

I do believe I did.

It was gorgeous.

I feel like that tracks.

I definitely feel like that tracks.

But But then it bumped into something and exploded and everybody died.

We learned our lesson.

That's like the thing you were talking about with science.

You don't know till you know, but then you really know.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You know, then you find out like, yo, you know, hydrogen is going to be hydrogen.

Exactly.

Exactly.

You know, I hate to bring the mood down a little bit, but you know, a lot of the reason why we know things are harmful is because they harmed someone.

It's not like somebody came along and they were like, oh, that looks like it would be harmful.

Maybe we, I mean, sometimes that happens.

You know, if you see a pit of lava, you probably think I shouldn't go in it.

You know what I mean?

Like, you don't need to see, you know, it is ancient wisdom to be like, don't eat those berries.

Yeah.

You know, and someone ate those berries a bunch of times.

Yeah.

And they did not have a good time.

You know what I mean?

Like, you know, but literally, safety protocols in labs are born from this.

And it's unfortunate that every once in a while, somebody, you know, I make this joke frequently to people.

Like, some people climb mountains and some people skydive.

Some people are just chemists.

Yeah.

Because it's dangerous.

Like, it's fundamentally dangerous.

You can, there's a lot of very safe and relatively innocuous chemistry you can do.

But a lot of stuff in my graduate work, I was like, yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to be real careful with this stuff.

There's some like, you know, there are some wild, wildly, and, but the reason we know that.

is because like the reason we know mercury is toxic and bad for you is from the history of people using mercury in vaguely unregulated ways and us being like oh those people don't seem to they don't seem to be doing so well anymore like maybe it was the mercury yeah to get back on the topic of hydrogen though like hydrogen at this point, we actually recognize aside from that flammability might have some meaningful health benefits if you can get it into the body in a useful form.

Fortunately, the gas itself is also pretty harmless to the body as far as we can tell.

Like if you, I mean, obviously don't displace all the air in your lungs with hydrogen gas.

Don't, don't do that.

You do need oxygen to breathe, of course, but like you can breathe hydrogen gas to a degree, you know, as long as there's enough oxygen mixed in, obviously.

And that's fine.

You can also drink hydrogen water.

apparently you might also be able to take baths in water that is rich with hydrogen but it's kind of the same thing as alkaline water right like there's a degree to which people are attempting to

tap into a emerging market and essentially get people to buy a product that purports to provide some benefit but perhaps does not But we don't know, right?

Like that's the thing is that like this is an emerging area of research.

That's the only real difference between the the hydrogen water and the alkaline water is that with alkaline water, we're pretty, I'm pretty sure the case is closed on that one.

Like, that's not really much of a thing.

But with the hydrogen water, there's been a lot of research into the potential benefits of hydrogen therapy in various forms.

You know, so like, I don't knock anybody for wanting to try it, wanting to look into it.

I made fun of it on the face of it just because I was like, I'm pretty sure there's already hydrogen in here.

Why do I need to hydrogenate it?

So, hydrogen water, when people talk about hydrogen water, this is fundamentally different from alkaline water.

Hydrogen water is water that has had additional H2, that is to say hydrogen gas, dissolved into it in some way, shape, or form.

Okay.

You can generate hydrogen water from regular water using electrolysis.

What will happen shortly is that you pass an electric current through the water and this causes the water molecules to react with other oxygen stuff in the water and makes the two hydrogen atoms attached to the oxygen atom of water essentially stitch to each other and then become hydrogen gas.

And it might change depending upon what's dissolved in the water, but ultimately, you can make hydrogen water by running electricity through some water.

And what will effectively happen is the hydrogen atoms attached to the oxygen molecule will stitch to each other and become hydrogen gas.

But here's the problem:

hydrogen gas does the gas trapped in the water?

Exactly.

Hydrogen gas does not dissolve well in water.

That's ultimately why, if

nothing else, if you want to get a hydrogen water bottle generator or anything, you need to get one that's like a pressurized kind of container situation.

Because as it's generating the hydrogen gas through electrolysis, that hydrogen gas is just escaping the water.

So, unless the chamber that this is happening in is like sealed from the environment and can build up pressure like kind of like a pressure cooker would say the hydrogen gas isn't going to stay dissolved in the water also anything like soda or water like pop has carbonated literally but even faster faster than carbonation okay

that makes sense which fun fact about carbonation uh that is just straight up like dissolved carbon dioxide in water and part of why it stays there as why it can stay there longer is because it can straight up just like react with the water and the carbon dioxide will get another water molecule attached to it basically and become this other acid, carbonic acid.

And that's part of why we use it in soda because it helps to give it that like tart flavor.

But that's, that also is part of why flat soda tastes so much extra flat

and not quite as like tart because there's still phosphoric acid in a lot of sodas, but that carbonic acid also like gives it that extra crispness.

Interesting.

And I would imagine carbon gas is probably heavier than hydrogen gas as well.

Is that right?

Yeah, oh yeah, no, no, no.

Carbon dioxide is in fact, heavier than air.

It's the molecule itself has three atoms in it versus the others.

And the atoms that comprise carbon dioxide, one carbon atom, two oxygen atoms are all heavier than the atoms that comprise hydrogen gas.

So, you know, two hydrogen atoms.

So, yeah, I would assume that it's significantly heavier than that.

So, it doesn't float out as quickly.

No.

Okay.

Yeah, I forgot about that.

That's a fun little thing you can actually do.

If you, like, say, take some vinegar and baking soda, right, and let them react and make do the bubbling thing.

What you're making is a bunch of carbon dioxide gas but if you do it in a big container you can actually kind of trap the gas in the container and then once you let it calm down if you want you can like light a tea light candle and then pour the gas onto the candle and watch the candle go out because of all the carbon dioxide gas just like putting out the fire you mean like take a cup of gas yeah i've been meaning to do to make like a little video of this you just reminded me oh that's so fun No,

it's pretty fun.

It's because it's pretty cool.

I ain't go up front.

That's cool.

So yeah, so CO2 gas has a much easier time like staying dissolved in water than hydrogen gas does.

So, if you get one of these hydrogen gas like bottle, water bottle situations, you need one that's going to like have like a pressurized container to keep the hydrogen gas dissolved in the water.

But all of that belies

the fundamental issue with hydrogen water as a form of hydrogen therapy.

We just straight up don't know, right?

Right.

Like, we don't know.

So, you know, like we don't know how much you need and that's that's okay and and see and that's the thing it's like in this case that's fine more or less because as far as we know it's not there's you you like you can't od on on hydrogen unless you literally suffocate yourself with the gas which again please don't do that please do not displace all the all the air in your lungs with hydrogen gas please don't do that but

you're like i just need to say that um

but you know like fortunately this isn't like drinking bleach say where it's like well you know it could be helpful it It could be harmful.

It's like, no, drinking bleach is explicitly going to harm you.

Like, there is no world where that's going to be good for you.

Beyond the fact that the bleach itself is going to burn your throat and your mouth quite badly.

It's going to react with the acid in your stomach and things are going to get a whole lot worse, a whole lot quicker.

But hydrogen gas, as far as we can tell and have seen and know, is not really harmful.

So the worst thing that happens is kind of you're just wasting your money, you know.

Because it ultimately it's like it could be helpful for you.

It absolutely could.

But But this kind of, again, goes back to, you know, it sucks that people have to try and get two or three opinions from medical professionals in a world where you have to pay an exorbitant amount of money, even when you have health insurance to go get health care.

You know what I mean?

Like that in and of itself breeds this sort of thing because then, yeah, everybody's going to be trained.

And I don't, you know, as much, like I said, you know, I don't really want to make fun of or be disparaging to people who do things like that because I know you're not trying to harm yourself.

It's just like, as absurd as it is to me, I entirely understand that if you exist in a society that does not allow you access to health care in some meaningful way, you're going to do it yourself.

Although I do think a big red flag, and I'm not, and I'm not saying people shouldn't try, you know, natural remedies and things like that, but I think a red flag would be being sold a product that it does not have a specific purpose where like hydrogen water, it's good for you.

Like, what part of me am I supposed to take a bath in it?

Am I actually supposed to put it on the inside and what for?

Like where is it gonna, how is it gonna,

what

kind of makes me like what is the mechanism through which this is going to improve my life?

Not yet.

I mean yeah like the borax thing.

I saw I see people pushing that around like eating ingesting borax which is like a cleaning product.

I've never seen anybody be like, and this is exactly what it's for.

The one thing that borax can do.

Instead, it's like part of your healthy diet should be a tablespoon of borax and i don't which i'm just like no no no absolutely absolutely not like you're just like please please please just don't do that like just so many reasons not to do that like i but you touch on a very a very important point that i think is part of what i hope to achieve with at least some of my content yet i know i know that it doesn't all hit this hit this note but i try is the ability to look at what's being presented to you a little bit more critically.

You know what I mean?

And that's kind of what I was saying earlier.

I was like, if I'm trying to look up information about something and I find a source that agrees with me wholesale, the first thing that I do is go and immediately, even just if I know, like I'll go to try actively to find a source that disagrees with me wholesale because I am a human being.

We're all human beings, which means we have human brains.

Become pre-programmed with confirmation bias.

Exactly.

Like, you know, I wish more people worked within the philosophy of my brain isn't exactly my own, because it's not exactly your own.

Your brain is shaped by everything you've experienced in your life, whether or not you chose to experience it.

You know what I mean?

And that affects how you react and respond and think about all sorts of things, including when you get presented with some information and whether or not you kind of accept it wholesale or you like kind of question it a little bit.

And I really, I just,

I want to encourage as many people as I can not to be like Debbie Downer, sort of poo-pooey, like everything's terrible skeptic, but just be critical.

Like the good old adage, if it sounds too good to be true.

It probably is.

You know what I mean?

It probably is too good to be true.

And when you get to that point where you just have to take something on faith, you need to recognize, whoa, whoa, whoa.

What am I assuming here?

Like, whoa, whoa, what am I taking on faith here?

Like, but, you know, you get wrapped up in the excitement of this might solve all all my problems and so i i just but i think that's what people who are skeptical of modern western medicine also say though that you have to question everything and make sure that you know you're not getting hosed by big pharma like it's the same principle that they're operating off of only the only real difference is that like unfortunately is the existence of like clinical trial data that you know the average person cannot evaluate on their own so you know that that kind of becomes an issue.

And I mean, the unfortunate reality is also that, like,

I had to be careful saying this.

You could just tell you, it's just you and me.

No one's listening.

Yes, yes.

Yes, right.

Exactly.

I just got to be careful saying this in our current administration.

We practice medicine under a

profit-driven paradigm.

We do not practice medicine under a patient's needs paradigm exactly.

Right.

So there's a real degree to which pharmaceutical companies will engage in certain practices that lead to them making outsized profits and not necessarily innovating a lot.

That is not the same

as

pharmaceutical companies pushing products that don't work.

right you know what i mean like the naturopaths will say that like yes do your research so go ahead and look up the us the united states pharmacopias like monogram you know i mean for the medication that your doctor is telling you that you should take you know what i mean like go ahead and do that go ahead and try to read it if you can't ask your doctor to help you understand it.

Now, this is again where we end up at that problem though, right?

Like

we don't have access to the experts.

And a lot of people have been programmed to not look at experts as experts.

So we end up in this, like, really, really unfortunate, like vicious loop of people just wanting to try something because they don't think that there's a solution out there.

And there is, but like, it's hard to get for a lot of people.

So I said, you know, I think, I think I said it in one of these videos that I made.

It might have been a Borax video.

That like, I understand people like, you know, if you say you got an eye infection and you really can't go to the doctor because you work two jobs, six days a week and you got a kid and you know that borax will work as a biocide in some ways.

So you, or, you know, you're like, all right, well, if I take some really dilute bleach and drop it in my eye, you know what I mean?

It's better than me just like, you know, it's like, I'm like, I don't want you to do that.

Please don't fuck.

Please don't do that.

Please, God, do not do that.

But like.

Can I really be mad at this?

It's like, to me, it's like the same as like being mad at somebody who's starving stealing food.

It's like, yo, you, you need that.

You know, I can't really be that mad at you.

And so I just, I just, I know, it's frustrating.

I'm not going to percent like I have a solution that doesn't involve universal access to health care.

Right.

Like straight up and down.

I don't know that there's a solution aside from that.

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Even with some areas of pharmaceutical science, there are unknowns.

Like, for example, psychiatric medications.

Like, I take a few.

And when I ask my psychiatrist, what does this exactly do in my brain?

They're like, well, we have theories.

Oh, yeah.

But what they really mean is we

looked and we're still figuring it out.

We're looking.

And what we've done is listened to people and done tons and tons and tons of trials.

And for the most part, this seems to work for people for this condition.

I can't tell you exactly what happens inside your mushy gray brain matter, but what we have noticed is a common outcome that doesn't seem to do more harm than good or whatever.

And that's another example of why you need to trust experts, you know, because they have put the work in.

It's not Gary down the street.

being like, I decided to.

I read these blogs.

I read some blogs.

You know what I mean?

And all these blogs were saying this.

And I mean, and this one dude, his blog, he says he's a doctor.

So, you know, but I got to be careful with that because I also say I'm a doctor online.

Right.

So, you know, but

not a medical doctor.

Not a medical doctor.

Can we talk about, I just got reminded of another thing because Gary Down the Street also likes to recommend colloidal silver.

What is that?

That one.

Colloidal Silver.

It turned you blue.

Colloidal Silver has an interesting, yeah.

It's got a, it's got an interesting little story behind it.

But yeah, the long and short of it.

So colloidal silver is what you get if you could take a really, really small, like tinier than you could see marble of silver, right?

And you had like millions of those and you mixed that up in some water.

It's not quite dissolved in the water, but it's also not like, it's just like, it's like milk almost.

Like, you know how like me, like if you let milk sit for a while, eventually you get the proteins to coagulate and stuff.

It's kind of more like that, like a colloidal suspension, but it's of like silver particles that are all really small.

Now, it is true that silver has antimicrobial properties.

It is not necessarily true or it is not necessarily well understood as to whether or not it can do this in your body with any kind of selectivity.

I do, if I'm not mistaken, because it's been a little while since even I've read about it, but historically people did use colloidal silver here and there with like

varying degrees of success.

With wound care mostly, right?

Yeah, with like wound care, not really internally.

I think there may be, possibly are stories of people having used it like as an internal antibiotic, but

I don't know for sure.

We have antibiotics that work and won't turn you blue, so you don't need to take colloidal silver.

Yeah, exactly.

Also, antibacterial stuff is also not great to have 100% of the, like people who take colloidal silver take it every day.

You wouldn't take amoxicillin every single day or slather your body in neosporin every day.

Exactly.

Like, no, no, because especially because you have to remember, and this is, this is a very fun and interesting emerging area of research:

the significant importance of our body's various microbiomes, like the gut microbiome and the skin microbiome, even like your hair microbiome.

Like, these microbes are with you all the time and they are exposed to the same things you're exposed to.

And there are definitely, I'm sure, some people who will argue that, like, we as humans are just like transports for like all the microbes that live in our body synergistically and helpfully.

And we need them there to help us stay alive.

And they need us so they can reproduce in us.

Yeah, you know what I mean?

Yeah, you know what I mean?

It's it's it's it's symbiotic.

Nah, yo, that's the circle of life, fam.

Like, you better get with it, dog.

Like, I don't know what you want,

like, that's how this works, dog.

Like, what you want?

Like, ain't nothing wrong with it.

You know, some of them are good, some of them are bad.

Some I don't want to say, no, honestly, no, I take that back.

None of them are good.

None of them are bad.

They have their place.

And if they get out of place, it can be a problem.

Right.

But if you also don't have them, it can be a problem for you, too.

That's part of why you're only supposed to take antibiotics for the amount of time you're supposed to take them, as you mentioned, with like a moxistnylin.

Yeah.

You know, so yeah, I hadn't even remembered that point with colloidal silver.

The other thing is, you know, just like the whole turning you blue and the kind of like metals toxicity issue of it, which silver is relatively well tolerated in the body, if you will.

Um, but I think I prefer gold, gold slagger.

Right.

I actually hate gold.

Colloidal gold.

Although

I feel like i saw that somewhere online at some point i i feel like i did but i might not have that might not be true it might have just been like a joke

but like it's the it's the kardashians version of colloidal silver they don't do colloidal silver in that household it's all colloidal gold yeah exactly it's it honestly it's hard to be mad at people for doing it And I will try to never be like mad or upset with people about that because at the end of the day, it comes to like being convinced that this is your only option, you know, but like,

yeah no it's it's very ineffective for what a lot of people end up using it for i feel like for the for the level of potential harm that it could cause you in the long run for the way that a lot of people seem to want to advertise its use i'm not saying that it's gonna be the end of the world for you or it's gonna cause you wild health consequences if you like once

twice a year use the little colloidal silver, you know, on your skin.

You know, like we get exposed and this is i was going back what we said earlier like our bodies are amazing our physiology is insane the things that people can heal from even without that much intervention from like quote-unquote modern medicine or western medicine or whatever like the fact that our bodies can heal in the ways that they can heal is a little crazy.

You know, we might not be able to regenerate limbs, but we can tolerate a whole lot of abuse before our bodies are really like, I, I, you know, I can't, we're not doing this anymore.

Oh, you're talking to the daughter of a dentist whose main piece of advice anytime you don't feel good is, eh, it'll go away.

It's like, you know, it's like, you know, it's like, you just keep an eye on it.

Just keep an eye on it.

It'll get, yeah, it'll get better.

You'll probably be all right.

Oh, your knee hurts.

I'm sorry.

Yeah, look, get off of it for a minute.

You know what I mean?

You'll be all right.

You know, like, I'd like.

It's probably a virus, is what he always says.

It's probably a virus.

I mean, that's the answer every time.

I don't know about that.

But although it is, I don't know.

It is, as a side note, it it is rather interesting that it was posited,

I want to say it was posited sometime in the 80s.

I'm sure one of your viewers is going to get mad.

If they know this, they're going to get mad at me.

Oh, we have listeners.

No one can see what we're doing right now.

So we have listeners.

Yeah.

But

I'm sure some listener will get mad at me for getting these details not entirely correct.

But there was some scientists who posited, I want to say in like the 80s or 70s, that like we were going to figure out in the next 30 to 50 years from that, from like the 70s or 80s, that a lot of the cancers that we thought were just like cancer are actually caused by viruses and they have been kind of proven fairly correct uh and that we have discovered that like i part of my phd research actually involved me looking into drugs to combat hepatitis b virus um because that hepatitis b virus can cause what is it liver cancer yeah hepatitis b virus can can can can cause liver cancer um but that isn't something that we you know like we like our understanding of the extent to which viruses themselves will induce cancerous mutations in bodies is a real is a relatively recent, you know, so maybe, you know, the it's a virus.

My dad kind of, he thinks that lots of things are caused by

like if I'm like, my elbow hurts, you know, he'll be like, probably a virus.

I don't know about that.

I don't know either.

I don't know either, but I got, but he's the expert.

No, I don't know.

You know, our bodies are pretty resilient.

So like the people who are like, oh, I take it every day.

I'm like, that's a little bit of much exposure.

You know, like if you do this once a month and you just, and you really feel like it's doing something for you,

you know, I'm going to tell you you probably shouldn't do it, but I'm going to also try to be real with you that like that maybe isn't enough to be meaningfully harmful to you.

But like, I mean, too much of anything is bad for you, right?

One last thing I wanted to get your, your thoughts on is since you are a synthetic chemistry expert.

What are synthetics and why are so many people freaked out about them?

Like in everything, not just our food and vitamins, but like in everything.

Like, oh, that it's synthetic.

And it's my understanding that if you're synthesizing like the word synthesize, like you're making the thing that already is a thing.

So it's, is that right?

Or am I being stupid?

It's right.

Ah, yes.

Nailed it.

That is correct.

Nailed it.

Can you talk about that?

If you are synthesizing,

you know, a moxicillin, you are making the molecule a moxicillin.

I think a lot of people,

this, I think, really comes down to a fundamental misunderstanding of like

the nature of chemistry, I guess.

But I think a lot of for a lot of people, there is a pervasive belief, which I think also kind of tracks back to the fact that people don't get introduced to chemistry early enough in life.

So it's difficult to think about things from the perspective of chemistry, especially because then you don't learn it.

But like it's, it's actually kind of valuable to your day-to-day life because you don't fall into this kind of thinking where molecules that come from like plants and animals are somehow different from molecules that we make in a lab.

This is related to an old and very much debunked idea within science called vitalism, which for a while, because again, we did, we watched things happen and then came up with rules based on experiments after.

For a while, it was believed that certain molecules and therefore substances could only be derived from living species and living sources.

So like, I think urea was one of the famous examples that ended up debunking this theory.

I forget who it was that made urea the first time, but they made it using like essentially straight up like the equivalent of

like just like salts.

If I just to try and keep it simple, like the equivalent of like potassium of like potassium.

Okay, no, let me try and let me try and think.

I think you used an isocyanate and hydrolyzed it with base or or something.

You could be saying

right now.

And I would guide

that.

Okay, sure.

I don't remember.

I'll be perfectly honest.

I don't remember exactly the reaction he used to make urea, but he made it from effectively things you would like think of as rocks, like inorganic compounds that never came from a living thing to begin with.

And this was a huge deal when he did it because it proved that it's not true.

Right.

A vitamin that gets made in a lab is the same as a vitamin that gets made in a living organism.

There really isn't a difference between the two compounds themselves.

Now,

I have to talk about isolation, which is, as you might imagine, getting that compound out from wherever it is that it's currently existing.

In that process, it is not impossible for contaminants to end up in the final product that wouldn't necessarily be there if it were derived from a natural source.

But there are issues with this idea because that same thing can happen when you try to derive it from a natural source as well.

Right.

So if you, you know, if you really want to talk about like where you need to get your vitamins and minerals from, you need to get it from your food.

Point blank, period.

And you better wash everything,

you know, because you're not, if you're talking about contaminants.

Oh, yeah, right, for real.

Like, please do wash your fresh fruit and vegetables.

Yes, please, please do not just like throw that into a splinter.

Don't, don't, don't just throw that into a blender and make the juice out of it.

It's going to be a bad idea.

Trust me.

Again, this kind of goes back to what i was saying earlier though about like how resilient our bodies are like i understand people wanting to be careful about like what they put in their diet and people want to live as long as they can and yeah modern medicine is expensive so people got to you know prevention is better than the cure but you also do got to remember that like

if you spend so much time and energy and effort and anxiety on these things that don't actually matter that much,

you might just be doing worse things for your health.

You can't live off cortisol i'll tell you that

i mean some people do they don't have a very good time i promise you and the people around them don't either but like yeah they go for it i think

yeah i think a lot of a lot of everything that we talked about today i think really circles back to the to the fact that one people don't get introduced to science nearly as early in their lives as they should for the amount of ways and places in which a firm understanding of science, or at least just being able to think about things critically in that like scientific, mechanistic, there's an explanation manner is really important that you kind of form that in people early on.

I think that's one of the big advantages that I have had in being able to like study this and do this.

And, you know, my fundamental interest is very much helped by the fact that like I started looking at and learning about this very early in my life.

But because of that, and the fact that like there's just just so much more of our lives now, like pharmaceutical commercials, for example, I'm like, why do people need to see them?

Why do I, why do I get commercials from medicines?

It's like, no, my doctor should be able to just prescribe for me, like, you know, the medication that I need.

Right.

But it's about money making.

Yeah.

Branding.

Yeah, you know, but like understanding and being able to evaluate whether or not like, you know, like some actual medical product or some bit of information somebody's giving you about like some product or service you could use is helpful.

Cause I mean, this, this isn't just for science.

This is also for like, you know, people just getting scammed by, you know, the, the, the prints emails, you know what I mean?

Like, you know, this is just generally the ability to be critical of information that you're presented with.

But like.

that becomes difficult if you don't have a firm grasp of the fundamentals behind it.

You know, it becomes real easy to just kind of go with what somebody tells you if they sound very confident about what they're saying and you don't really understand enough about it yeah you know to question it directly and that again like i said you know when somebody or something is telling you exactly what you want to hear or exactly what you think you agree with the first thing you need to do is go find somebody who has a compelling case for the opposite argument because you're getting sucked into your confirmation bias that we all come with as human beings and you got to be careful because that will get you into trouble you know what i mean that is going to end up having you drinking colloidal silver twice a day.

You know, I mean, turning your liver blue.

But I don't blame individuals like that.

I blame

the nature of our system.

I blame the commodification of education.

I blame the commodification of healthcare.

Generally speaking, I blame commodification and profit seeking for a lot of these behaviors because once you do that, you kind of remove the goal of best outcomes for everybody.

The market cannot decide, you know, what the best course of treatment is for a given disease.

And sometimes the market decides that the best outcome is for a lot of people to die.

It's happened more than once.

And that, you know, that in and of itself is like one of the real underlying problems.

And they're just like, we,

if we can move away from that in some meaningful capacity somehow, definitely not going to happen in the next four years, probably.

But, you know.

Well, I'll be better off.

Yeah.

Yeah, it'd be great.

But in the meantime and in between time, like, you know, the most that I will ever try to do and hope to do is give people a little bit more of a view of the broadness of a subject and remind people that critical evaluation of information is key to being able to, you know, live a life like without ending up getting sucked into these like kind of rabbit holes of untrue information that ultimately might end up just harming you, you know?

And

I guess this is where like I try my best, you know, I try my best with Kim Thug, right?

Like, I want to present information in a way that people will be encouraged to go and look up a little bit more about it potentially themselves, or at the very least, come away with an understanding that the world is bigger than they thought and that there are reasons why things are the way they are.

We got here through a known pathway.

You know what I mean?

Like, I always disliked when I would ask my parents things as a kid where I was like, oh, well, why is it raining if the sun is out?

And they would say something like, oh, it's because God's going bowling.

It's like, don't do that.

Don't do that.

Please don't do that.

No, I like, I'm just like, yo, don't do that.

Like, tell me you don't know.

Just tell me you don't know.

But there's a reason.

There's like an actual mechanical reason that's based in fact.

Right.

Because I feel like a lot of people end up growing up with those kinds of explanations for things in their lives.

And that makes people feel like the actual explanation to some degree is just like inscrutable.

Chemistry is is magic.

Biology is magic.

The systems that keep even just like bacteria alive are wild.

You know, like the number of chemical reactions that happen with a whole bunch of random reagents just like all sloshing around

within that little bacterium.

Now multiply that by like 20 billion.

You know what I mean?

For like your body.

I understand that we can't necessarily know everything, but it is theoretically knowable.

Well, thanks so much for talking to me.

This is an absolute pleasure.

I do indeed enjoy this.

I thank you so much for inviting me on.

I really, really do appreciate the opportunity.

That's it for this week.

We have a tip line open.

Call us at 323-248-1488.

323-248-1488.

And leave us a message about anything that you think is funky out there.

What's going on, guys?

Talk to me.

You check your feed and your account.

You check the score and the restaurant reviews.

You check your hair and reflective surfaces and the world around you for recession indicators.

So you check all that, but you don't check to see what your ride options are.

In this economy, next time, check Lyft.

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Just ask the Capital One Bank Guy.

It's pretty much all he talks about.

In a good way.

He'd also tell you that this podcast is his favorite podcast, too.

Ah, really?

Thanks, Capital One Bank Guy.

What's in your wallet?

Terms apply.

See capital1.com slash bank.

Capital One NA member FDIC.

Hey, dream listeners.

It's finally here.

The dream plus, where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads.

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It's the only tier.

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The interface has it cataloged under AMA, Ask Me Anything.

But I don't love rules.

So, what I did is started a bunch of threads like ask Dan and I questions, general chit chat, just to make friends and stuff.

And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shopping, and it's there.

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It'll be fun.

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