Bonus 1: Coaching or Culting?

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Hey, dream listeners, Jane here with one of two bonus episodes.

This season on the dream, we looked into the world of life coaching.

And on today's show, we're going to hear from now world-famous former life coach, Sarah Edmondson.

Have you heard of her?

She and her partner Nippy were featured prominently in the documentary The Vow on HBO.

It's all about the Nexium life coaching MLM turned creepy criminal cult.

Sarah was once a devotee of its leader Keith Ranieri, but after some horrific events, including Sarah being branded, they became whistleblowers.

Obviously, Sarah's experience with the group didn't start out that terribly.

And I was curious, like, how do you go from having really great intentions, wanting to help others, wanting to improve improve your own life, to,

you know, being in a terribly scary, awful cult?

If you could just start by telling me your name and a little about yourself.

Sure, but first, can I say it's a dream come true

to be on the show?

It's a dream come true for me to be talking to you.

I'm like, I was obsessed with the documentary.

Well, anyway, why don't you tell us your name and who you are and where you're from and all of that stuff.

Sure.

My name is Sarah Edmondson.

I'm from Vancouver, Canada.

Originally, I now live in Atlanta, Georgia.

I was in a cult for 12 years, didn't know it was a cult, thought it was a personal and professional development program that taught goal setting and coaching and living your best life type seminars.

And when we figured out it was not that, we went to the authorities, then the press, and then

the leaders in jail for 120 years.

How's that for a good summary?

Great.

What's the name of the cult?

Sorry.

I'm so good at doing the cliff notes.

I dropped the cult.

Well, I knew it as executive success programs.

And later, for the sake of ease and all the different rebranding that the company tried to do, we call it Nexium.

It's known in the press as Nexium, NXIVM, not N-E-X-I-U-M, which is the heartburn medication.

Can you just talk about where you were in your life when

you first

were introduced to executive success programs?

Is Is that what it's called?

Yeah, executive success programs or ESP, we called it.

Which is a weird acronym.

ESP means extrasensory perception, right?

Yes.

Well, one.

It's like a

witchy thing.

A witchy thing.

We actually realized later that Keith loved to name his things, you know, different, have lots of double entendres.

So

Nexium, we found out later, comes from the root word, I think it's Nexus, which is, I want to say, like Greek or Roman for

indentured servitude and like debt bondage.

And yeah, so like there's things that you wouldn't,

when you do the research, you're like, well, that makes sense.

And he had that in the back of his mind, but we didn't know at the time.

And DOS, Dominus Obsequium Sororium or something like that.

But DOS is also like he was an 80s computer nerd.

We also know what DOS means.

So like it has double, everything had double meanings for him.

Okay.

Yeah.

So ESP.

ESP.

So what was going on in my time in my, in that time of my life is I was a aspiring actress.

I was also, of course, a waitress.

I had big dreams for myself in terms of like finding my purpose and eventually getting so famous that I could have a stage and have a voice for various causes that I was passionate about, including having an impact on the world, changing the world.

A lot of idealistic

sort of values that my social activists, left-leaning, hippie parents, taught to me.

And so, yeah.

The day that it entered my life, I was in a place where I was very much into

manifesting and setting intentions.

And so this would have been like 2005, right?

What the bleep had just come out.

For our listeners, can you just

describe it briefly?

What the Bleep Do We Know was a hugely successful documentary.

I think it came out in 2003 or 4.

And it

looked at how you create your own reality in terms of like your beliefs and your thoughts.

And it was like spirituality meets quantum physics.

Like what's the physics of the spirituality?

So like how do you actually think about things will affect the things around you?

And it talked like it looked at water when you were projecting love onto it versus hate and things like that.

And it got into like the science of spirituality and it was quite groundbreaking at the time.

And I, my boyfriend that I was with at that time was a filmmaker and he got into this film festival called the Spiritual Cinema Circle Festival at Sea.

This is a group that is no longer in existence, as far as I know, or at least this was a cruise of spiritual filmmakers.

And my boyfriend got accepted.

And I was like, well, I'm coming with you because I want to meet all these spiritual filmmakers and do real and be on a cruise.

And be on a cruise

to go to the Bahamas.

I mean, like, what better place to be?

And I set the intention of

finding my purpose.

And on the very first day, even before I met the director of What the Bleep, I met another man named Richard, who's still a friend of mine, on the first day who gave me a copy of his book, which was called, What's Your Purpose?

And I thought, wow, I am in the right place.

And I was just so open to the universe, just showing me what I was doing.

Like I nailed it.

I nailed my purpose right away.

Right away.

And then that, I've only been on one cruise and it was a Coachella cruise.

So there was none of that.

Different vibe, although maybe some overlap with people it was a very niche audience and i felt i was just so excited because i'd been doing like beer commercials and vampire tv shows and like just stupid sci-fi television that like didn't fill my cup you know and like this is there's more for me here So I had met Richard, I got his book, and then that night, like the very first night, it was a signed seating.

And my boyfriend and I were assigned to sit across from a very

distinguished man and his girlfriend, which I later came to understand was the director of What the Bleep.

Again, divine timing.

Here I am being sat across from Mark Vicente.

We're talking about spirituality, we're talking about shifting consciousness, we're talking about filmmaking, we're talking about all the things.

I'm like, it couldn't have felt more divine in all the ways.

And we became friends, Mark and his girlfriend, his girlfriend at the time, me and my boyfriend, and we spent the seven days together.

We were fast friends.

And

Mark was the judge of the films, and I think my boyfriend won an award, and it was all very exciting.

Meanwhile, Mark's telling us about a program that he just came out of that was incredible.

And he basically said, well, if you liked my film, then you would love this curriculum.

Mark was pitching Nexium, which at the time was simply selling coaching courses, stuff involving that neuro-linguistic programming we've talked about and getting out of your own way, that sort of stuff.

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But we all know that's not true, right, guys?

I mean, looking back, there were a lot of red flags that I missed.

He spoke about Keith Ranieri as being one of the smartest men in the world, and he would decide to use his genius to create a curriculum that would help people,

you know, evolve their.

I think he even used the word disintegrations, which is the next Yam word for,

you know,

what's an English, what's a real word for that?

The flaws flaws in our in our programming they use a lot of computer analogies like what you said in season three with the guy who's doing NLP it was exactly that and I said the exact same thing when I later learned to pitch it we have hardware and we got software and our software's got glitches and we got to upgrade that software and we have the tools to do it in a very short time and let's do it the most efficient way go vanguard.

So that was that was it.

And I jumped in.

It just happened.

Again, the universe had lined it all up so nicely for me.

The very first Canadian five-day training was going to be happening like less than a month later in Vancouver.

So when I heard about it, where I lived at the time, yeah, even though I was hearing about this in the Caribbean,

he and I were both just like, let's do it.

But it just happened that there was another woman on the cruise who was also there,

then started chasing us around.

the cruise ship with this paperwork design to get the 48-hour discount.

And

yeah, this was

very multi-level marketing.

Super multi-level marketing.

And I was, if I knowing what I know now, I probably wouldn't have even signed up because I would have been like, you're trying to pressure me.

You're using scarcity mentality.

And like, there's only a few spots left.

And like trying to, you know, all the things that I now know are tactics.

But

at the same time, I wanted my, I wanted the 20% off because I was like, well, I'm going to do it.

So I might as well just do it.

And I signed us both up.

And they also said, they also had this thing that was called Three and it's Free.

So you could sign up three people and get your money back.

So they were like, well, if you sign up your boyfriend, that will count as one of your three.

So and I only needed to find two more after that.

And I'm like, well, I can do that.

Like, assuming I'm going to put it.

It was $2,160.

Yeah.

$20.

Yeah, $2,160.

Yeah.

How much was the cruise?

Oh, God.

I don't even know less than that because we we were guests.

We just had to get there.

So cheap.

But, you know, chasing you around a place like a cruise ship

for $2,000.

Wow.

Yes.

Yeah.

And you went for it.

And I went for it.

And that's, I mean, keep in mind, like my rent at that time was $400 a month.

So.

And hard to make.

And hard to make.

So that was a big jump.

So actually, when I got home, I think I talk about this in my book too.

Like I freaked out and I came to my my senses and was out of the sort of reverie of the dream-like aspect of being on this cruise.

And it was incredible.

Like it was

a wonderful seven days.

I met Neil Simon, who wrote What Dreams May Come with Robin Williams, like, or directed and produced, I mean, like, I met some incredible people in the film industry who were all so spiritual.

And so when I came back from all that, I landed back in reality and I ended up calling like the ESP headquarters and being like, I put this deposit down.

Is there any way I can get my money back?

Because I put $500 down of the $2160 to secure the discount.

So I put $500 down and I was like, freaked out.

I don't even have that.

And they, it was actually a woman who I'm now friends with, so we can laugh about it, but her name is Barbara Boucher.

And she was like the top salesperson.

And she said to me, wait, you're 28 years old and you don't have $500?

Ouch.

What are you going to do differently in your life if you're not going to address your money issues?

Uh-huh.

Right.

And you were like, sick burn, Barbara.

Sick burn, I'm in.

And well, I was not totally in until she said, because my other excuse was, you know, I'm an actor and I don't know if I can take five days away.

Like, I really need to be available for auditions and stuff like that.

And she said, so you're waiting for your agent to call.

Is your agent going to be the director of your life or would you like to be the master of your own ship?

Yeah.

So between those two things, I was like, you know, she has a point.

And so I think, oh, yeah, it was a week or two later.

And I ended up going to this pretty run-down holiday inn in Burnaby, which is a suburb of Vancouver.

And needless to say, I was.

This sounds totally legit.

And like you're about to make so much money and be so successful.

Yes.

I was.

I'm sorry.

I don't know.

It was really run down.

It was not executive success.

And I remember thinking, like, for the amount of money we paid, we should have more than a bread garden, which is sort of like Canada's Panera.

Like a,

yeah, it's like a very simple like sandwiches and maybe some boiled eggs and croissants for breakfast.

And I was like,

I'm gluten-free.

This sucks.

But

I was like, I kept vacillating between being like, all right, pay this money, let's do this.

And then also being very skeptical, very judgy of all of the coaches' cheesy power suits.

And there was like, I want to say 12 coaches and nine students.

There was a big coach to student ratio in that particular training because it was the first one they'd done in Canada.

There's only nine of us.

I was really turned off from the beginning.

I was super, like,

just the whole presentation was cheesy.

It was dated.

It was, this is 2005, and I want to feel like it was nine, it was 90s.

Like, it was just, just, it was dated.

And the video, there was a video component.

The first time you're introduced to Nancy Salzman, who's the president of the company, is on a video.

And it's got like fluorescent pink block letters.

And this is not necessarily, like, not much of that was seen in in the vow because they redid the videos at a certain point.

But the old videos were like next-level cheesy.

And I just remember feeling like, what have I signed up for?

And my parents are therapists.

And this is like fast track to therapy, essentially, is what they're saying.

Like, therapy is just talking about your issues.

This is going to get to the root cause of it.

And they also, at the very beginning, were very smart about what I've since learned because I learned to do the same thing called preempting

and using remote setups, which are techniques to

basically have people

dismiss their concerns as they come up.

And

they got ahead of it.

You know what I mean?

So they got ahead of it by saying,

wouldn't you agree that all successful people know their limitations?

And we're like,

yeah, yeah, sure.

All successful people know their limitations.

So

at that point, if you don't admit you have limitations, you're not successful.

Okay.

So we're the double binds in the remote setups are getting people in the audience to go, okay, through her questions, remote setups, and these, this technique from the front of the room, okay, I have limitations.

I'm here to be successful.

I don't know, I am successful.

You don't, no one's saying I'm not successful.

Right.

And wouldn't you agree that to work through anything new, you're going to hit discomfort, no pain, no gain, right?

So when you're uncomfortable and you have the urge to leave, the urge to bolt, which is very normal, you're going to want to go to the bathroom.

You're going to want to eat.

You're going to want to smoke.

You're going to flirt.

All the things that happen, which is also true.

Like, if you've ever done therapy and I know you've done your coaching path with Jesse, like, it's uncomfortable, right?

To look at your shit.

Yeah.

So, that's true.

So, what it also does, though, is it helps you sit on your instinct to get the fuck out when it doesn't feel right.

Right.

So, that's the kind of confusing thing.

And a lot of these groups do this.

And I've since learned that this is, that's like the main tactic is to, is to override your intuition and saying your intuition in this case is riddled with limiting beliefs.

So for example, if you're uncomfortable when we present something, hey, we're going to present, it's just a piece of fabric.

We're going to put it around your neck.

It represents your level of growth in this karate-like system.

So the very first class was called Rules and Rituals.

We're going to go through all the things we do.

You're going to feel uncomfortable.

We ask you to think about why this thing is making you uncomfortable talk about it with a coach don't leave don't go smoke let's look at it while you're here it's just a piece of fabric okay and what are the remote setups so remote setups are when you say something from the front of the room that somebody would hear it's like when you're addressing someone's issue who's sitting in the room instead of calling them out and being like Jane, you're just being defiant right now.

Or like, Jane, you're so closed-minded because whatever.

I'm trying to think of some of the things you talked about.

like you just want to eat your junk food and you know and so instead of calling you out I could say from the front this and this is something I did all the time later if I knew what somebody was working through like if I knew that Jane Marie was coming to my training and she was trying to like not eat junk food I might say something like

you know, I'm so glad y'all are here.

This has been such an incredible training for me.

I've worked through so many issues.

It's helped me with my acting.

It's helped me with my relationships.

I've had things that I've tried to cut out of my life, like unhealthy eating or like certain habits that didn't serve me anymore.

And I I will tell you, these tools are going to help you blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

So like that's a remote setup.

So you're in the audience going, wow, like this is a good place for me because I can overcome my junk food addiction because Sarah is up there.

So I'm not,

it just sort of seems people used to say all the time, like, I think they might be psych, you might be, you feel psychic.

And part of it was because we were reading the intake sheets and sharing the information with the other coaches so that we could weave it in with these remote setups.

And after 12 years of talking to people and hearing their goals and understanding their backgrounds, there was only so many kind of patterns and tendencies.

So that, like, I might meet somebody that I was coaching, a new person, and they'd say a couple of things.

And I'd say, oh, okay, your parents are divorced.

And I hadn't read that in an intake sheet.

I just made that assumption because of a couple of things they said.

And I just assumed, and I often was right because

you're right half the time.

Yes.

No matter what, because you know half of people are divorced.

Right.

That's true, too.

Half the time.

50% chance of being right.

And maybe also some other things I picked up on, and then plus you throw the intake sheet in, and I look like a wizard, you know.

I felt so helped, I really wanted to be able to do that for other people.

That was the main thing.

And then I thought, wow, this is great because when I was deciding between acting and psychology back in the day, when I was choosing my degree, I was like, well, I can still pursue acting and I can still be a coach, which in my mind was the same as being a therapist, but better.

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So you get out of this terrible cult situation that becomes physically abusive,

that becomes just

incredibly unhealthy.

And do you, does it change your thinking about the coaching world?

Absolutely.

I mean, there's just certain words like coach or goals or success

or limiting beliefs that are just like so cringy for me to even hear.

Like, I don't, when I, when people tell me that they're a coach, I'm like, oh, really?

I'm so skeptical.

I'm like, based on what?

And I, I loved actually what you said in your series about like when you want to become a better soccer player, you, you go find someone who teaches soccer better,

plays better than you.

And so many of these people are not succeeding in their life in any way, shape, or form.

Why would you trust them

to guide you?

And I guess.

And that's the thing with my therapist.

I don't have that problem at all, but that's because I know for certain she

was

had rigorous training.

And it doesn't really matter if her life is perfect.

I mean, it seems perfect from the outside, but it doesn't really matter because she's following rules

that are state-sanctioned, I guess.

And there's a regulatory body.

And if she wasn't, if she was breaking rules, she would be

in trouble and perhaps face charges and all of that.

Yeah, like there's a regulatory, there's a system around her that if she was doing bad things to me,

that is, you know, she's, she would get in trouble and lose her license and all of that stuff.

So it doesn't, you know, it's different.

It is also different because they're following a modality that they've trained under.

And if their life's like not perfect or like they have their own issues, that's not really relevant to the, because they're using the modality.

Whereas the coaching doesn't have a modality.

It's just like, you know, let me give you advice.

Right.

What are the warning signs people should look for?

I had a really good experience with my life coach, right?

And when I talk about

how to shop for a life coach, where I start is like, taking a really good inventory of what I needed, you know, being really, really honest with myself about what I could possibly get from a coach, what I thought I would be able to listen to and, and follow,

and having, you know, kind of convictions around that before even choosing a person, because you can be enticed by just about anybody, you know.

I thought that was actually very smart that you, you had your list first.

Going in.

Yeah.

Before I met this person at all, I thought, well, I know that what really is bumming me out.

is that I don't want to get up in the morning and I don't want to move my body and I don't want to eat good food.

And I know those things would make a huge difference because sadly you do get happier when you work out more and all of that stuff is true

and it would be really nice if I could just like take a nap all day and be happy but

yeah I knew that those things would make the biggest impact on me in a short amount of time and it totally worked and so I tell people to kind of like figure out, is it spirituality that you're searching for?

Is it, you know, what's the, what's the thing that's gonna work for you?

And don't just sign up for any, anybody,

anybody's curriculum.

So what, what should people look out for so they, if they are going to get a coach, they don't end up in the scenario you found yourself in?

Yeah.

Um, that's a great question.

I'd say like figure out where they got their, first of all, like where do they get their training?

Um, like what's their background?

Did they just get a certificate online or put it on their business cards?

Like where, where do they learn to coach from?

I honestly like am

pretty skeptical about the coaching industry.

Like, I rather say get a therapist.

But if, if somebody wants a coach to help them in their lives, I'm, I'm more apt to say, like, if it's, if they're actors, like, get an acting coach.

But that being said, there's a ton of culti acting teachers out there.

That's a whole, a whole separate thing.

But like, you know, if it's a bit if you're in business, specifically getting a business coach,

which is different than like the business coaches in an MLM circle, because that's like you'd expose there's people who have zero credentials walking around trying to tell people what to do.

But I would say, like, okay, if you let's just say you're going to find a coach and you want them to help you in your life.

Look for love bombing.

Look, look for somebody who's just like making you feel really good at first and buttering you up.

And with that, like deep eye-gazing

is something that I think is

definitely a red flag.

Any encouragement to distance or cut off from friends who like aren't doing the work

is key.

Jennifer had that with

Arbonne and with

Ray Higdon, where he said, don't be around sick people or poor people.

Yes.

know.

I mean, there is a, there is a reality to, like, if you've got people in your life who are super toxic and abusive, like, that's, that's different.

But if they don't, if the people don't get it and they'ren't supportive of you, that's different.

That's not being toxic and abusive.

Right.

Loaded language, like having your own little language that's separate from everybody else.

Thought terminating cliches.

If you're like asking questions and you feel shut down by

like, if somebody says, Well, that's just your life.

Like in the next team, we used to always say, Well, that's just your life issue.

Which is not illegitimate.

I mean,

yeah.

I'm like, oh, it's just my life issue.

I was like, and then, and then I'm like, what do I do with that?

I'm like, well, go journal on it.

Like, just or go sit with that.

That's my life issue?

It's like, okay, that's everything.

What?

Oh, that's terrible.

I know.

Yeah.

So you feel differently about coaching.

Is there something about it?

Did you have any good like positive takeaways?

Yeah, I mean,

I got a lot of positive takeaways.

What's been part of my healing journey is deciding whether to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

And there actually isn't, you know, amongst us ex-nexium members, and

there's a whole other, you know, that's another hour of how I got out and how I

figured it out and all that stuff.

But even within our little community of

expions or ex-nexium,

people, whatever you want to call us, is that some people are like, no, I throw it all out.

Like if you have water with a bit of shit in it, like it's tainted, right?

Like just check it out.

But what I've, I'm personally not willing to do that because I put so much time and effort into it.

I feel like

I needed, I needed, for me, needed to separate what was his, what was Keith's and Nancy's, and what was just things from other places.

What's neuro-linguistic?

A lot of it was neuro-linguistic programming.

A lot of it was Buddhism.

A lot of it was

just like tenants from any goals program in terms of how to like push through and create the things you want in your life.

So for me to check that all out would be a waste of time.

And I'm all about efficiency.

So I spent the time trying to, and Nippy and I are still doing that.

We're still being like, wait, I have this thing.

Like,

is that like, did we think that?

Or did Keith think that?

Or where did it come from originally?

And then we,

you know, and then we, and then we can think about if we want to keep it.

because all of these things are just stolen from like are you lucky to have someone to parse that out with you?

Oh, I'm so lucky.

So many people left alone and you know, or went back to their families who were like, I told you you were in a cold.

Like,

so they're, you know, just stuck with their own process.

And I, I, you know, I feel very lucky to have Nippy.

And I, we talk about all the time.

And

yeah, I, it's, it's ongoing for sure, though.

The Dream is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Jane Marie.

Our producer is Mike Richter, with help from Nancy Golumbiski and Joy Sanford.

Our editor is Peter Clowney.

The Dream is a co-production of Little Everywhere and Pushkin Industries.

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The APY on cash deposits as of December 27, 2024 is representative, subject to change, and requires no minimum.

Funds in the cash account are swept to partner banks where they earn the variable APY.

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