S3 E5: I Never Said Hate

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Speaker 8 Pushkin.

Speaker 8 Hey dream listeners. If you like this podcast, you're gonna love the book.

Speaker 14 Yeah, I wrote a book.

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Speaker 8 Previously on The dream.

Speaker 15 I got to the level where you earned the Mercedes and then very quickly was sucked through the pipeline of an MLM coaching cult.

Speaker 15 Obviously, the love bombing began right away. Oh my gosh, you're in social work.
Oh, you have two kids. I have two kids too.
You're so much fun. You're a great speaker.
You love to help people.

Speaker 15 All these little things that really felt good.

Speaker 8 So maybe you're wondering what's been going on with me and my coach, Jesse, not Jesse Lee Ward, the other Jesse. And I'm here to say, it's going boringly, which is great.

Speaker 8 She came into the studio when we first got started and she basically interviewed me about all my problems, everything I wanted to change, or at the very least complain about.

Speaker 15 How's your sleep?

Speaker 8 Um,

Speaker 8 bad.

Speaker 8 It's really bad. Great start.
I'll spare you the talk about my bowel movements and all that jazz, but Jessie comes at this from both a wellness angle and a spiritual angle.

Speaker 8 And she finds connections between the two all over the place.

Speaker 14 No pain or stiffness when you're waking up in the morning?

Speaker 8 I have pain at night in my back and my lower back.

Speaker 14 That's because you're having problems with your dude.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 8 Okay. That's all.

Speaker 8 All right. Sorry.
Good to know.

Speaker 14 Please, if you're listening, don't quote me on that. It's just metaphysical stuff, you know?

Speaker 14 I mean, you already told me you're not very spiritual and stuff like that, but you don't do any spiritual practices, go to church. But you are eager to find some higher power.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Okay.
I am. I'm eager to not have existential dread that goes unanswered all the time.

Speaker 8 You know, so either get rid of my panic about like floating around in space all by myself for all of eternity, or

Speaker 15 you know, I don't know.

Speaker 8 I just don't want to think about it.

Speaker 14 Do you want to reincarnate?

Speaker 8 Do we just say that I don't know?

Speaker 8 I don't need to know. I just need it to not sound terrible.
Yeah. And I need to kind of feel a little more

Speaker 8 purpose.

Speaker 14 There we go. And that's the thing.
You need to eat a little bit better. You need,

Speaker 14 I mean, all of this kind of things, like you have no idea. Once you start changing a little bit of the way you eat and just little by little,

Speaker 14 things are going to start. changing.
Okay. You'll feel good about coming to work.
You'll feel good about leaving your house because what you're doing

Speaker 8 has purpose.

Speaker 14 And let me just tell you that what you do and the people that you are touching

Speaker 14 is godly.

Speaker 14 You have no idea. What you're doing

Speaker 14 is so beautiful. And you just have to believe it.
And that's what I'm here for. I want to tell you that you're beautiful.
I want to tell you that you're full of love, that you will find purpose.

Speaker 8 But I wouldn't be paying you.

Speaker 14 It doesn't, I know, but still, I mean, that's worth it. Because I'm working.
Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 14 But we won't be together for a long time because everything has a kind of expiration. This is what my thing is.
Okay. I'm going to teach you everything.
And then I'm going to leave you alone. Okay.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 14 And I'm going to check in on you and be like, are you doing this? Are you doing that? Maybe now we need to see each other instead of three times a week or two times a week.

Speaker 14 That we're going to start seeing each other. Then we're going to say, I'm going to take a break.
And this usually takes,

Speaker 14 I'm going to be completely honest. Nothing is going to change overnight.
I like to give three months to six months, one year,

Speaker 14 18 months.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 14 Like, this is how long I think this can take after we do all of the above.

Speaker 8 Okay.

Speaker 14 Let's just, let's stick to, let's stick for a year. I mean, we don't have to write a contract.
If things don't work out, they don't work out. Okay.
Let's stick to a year.

Speaker 14 And after that year, I'm going to check in on you once every two weeks. Okay.
And we can just go for a hike and talk. If you're not working out, if you're not this, guess what?

Speaker 14 I am going to come back to you because you do need me. My, my goal.

Speaker 8 This is what I want. I wanted somebody to like hold like to me.

Speaker 14 My goal, I'm gonna work out with you. I'm gonna cry with you.
I said, You wanna go sit in church instead? Like, I mean, come on, like, what do you want to do? Because everyone is different.

Speaker 14 Maybe you just need to stretch today, right? You need to be physically moving. You need to eat foods that are real foods, good energy.
That's what you need.

Speaker 14 You have more purpose than just being this wonderful mother and this girlfriend and a friend. You owe it to yourself, babe.
You owe it to yourself to understand how special you are. You have so much.

Speaker 8 It's just hard for me to listen to.

Speaker 15 It's not hard.

Speaker 14 You're just hearing it and you know it's true.

Speaker 8 Yeah.

Speaker 14 You know it's true and you're just someone that your body is telling you like, yo.

Speaker 8 Get it together.

Speaker 14 Come on. Yeah.
And I'm going to send a woman to you. that is just going to make you just in an easy way just by showing you love and being your friend

Speaker 14 and we're gonna have a great friendship after okay it's like i just want you to know i'm excited i am too honestly honestly i'm very excited do i sound like too much of a mess no okay okay sound like me

Speaker 8 so we decided we'd meet up twice a week but text whenever we felt like it which is a lot and so far it's going great now let's check back in on another very different coaching experience Last we heard from Jennifer, she was getting coached by this guy called Ray Higdon.

Speaker 8 At first, she was just spending $20 a month to watch his videos, read some business pointers, but then she was asked to join his inner circle and get more direct coaching, and that would cost her $5,000.

Speaker 8 But Jennifer thought it had to be worth it. Otherwise, why would this guy even be in business? So she paid $5,000 to be the most coached you could be in the organization.

Speaker 8 And then they asked her one more thing. Did she want to become a coach herself? You know, join them at the top.

Speaker 15 I say yes to becoming a a coach for Ray Higdon's 100K Inner Circle, because I think deep down, every single person in multi-level marketing on some level, doesn't matter if you're at the top or the bottom of the bottom, you know that it's unsustainable.

Speaker 15 I mean, unless you like got in in 1992, like you're, you're number one or number two.

Speaker 15 And also like the company can go under at any time it's not actually your own business and you see that but like you're not willing to see it but i think on some level deep down you know that so i said yes to coaching thinking this is going to be more sustainable like long term initially i thought that it would just be alongside of arbon also you're coached like the average millionaire has seven streams of income.

Speaker 15 So if nothing else, this just felt like another income stream that would be coming in. So I'd have my Arbonne business, which could fluctuate, but I'd have this coaching business.
And

Speaker 15 even though it was, it began as $22 a session, which was nothing compared to what he was making off of it.

Speaker 15 It felt like, well, maybe, I think in the back of my mind, I thought maybe one day I could be a coach like him.

Speaker 15 Because what happens is then the goal, instead of just getting to the top of your pyramid, you see all these people at the tops of the pyramids then become coaches, life coaches, business coaches, relationship coaches.

Speaker 15 Because they have all this power and influence. Why not

Speaker 15 exploit my followers and my downline and make even more money?

Speaker 15 by selling them courses and books and

Speaker 15 coaching sessions. So that

Speaker 15 slowly you become indoctrinated, especially as you move up the ranks, to want that too. Like your wants and dreams aren't even your own, really.

Speaker 15 Like you're like made to think this is what you should want. You should want to be rich.
Why wouldn't you want to be rich? Why wouldn't you want to live in a $7 million home like Ray?

Speaker 15 He lives in a $7 million home.

Speaker 15 Like he bought a boat during the pandemic. This is exactly the mindset that you begin to believe you need to have.

Speaker 15 And it's a mindset of privilege and a mind of self-righteousness that if I just believe I'm better than everybody else, so shall I be bestowed all the wealth and knowledge of the world.

Speaker 15 And that's not, I was a social worker for Christ's sake.

Speaker 15 Like that's not ever something that I aspired to be. Like, I just wanted to help people.

Speaker 15 But as a coach, you're like, I am helping people.

Speaker 8 I'm just helping them in a different way.

Speaker 15 And what's wrong with wanting to live comfortably? Because there isn't anything wrong with that. Like, inherently,

Speaker 15 until you become so obsessed, like you begin to believe that money makes you a good person.

Speaker 8 But you are living comfortably. Like.
This is a lovely house. It's like three times the size of my house.
You have an entire corner lot.

Speaker 8 You live near lakes and other things, mushrooms that I don't want to tell the audience about, but like really cool wild mushrooms.

Speaker 15 And I have like a beautiful marriage and I have beautiful children, healthy children. And like, but, but not even that.
It's like, I have, I have a family. I live, like, I have support.
I have like,

Speaker 15 but it's, it's all like a mind fuck of like,

Speaker 15 because if you begin to believe that money makes somebody a good person

Speaker 15 every time ray says oh my house was seven million dollars oh i spent this much on a coach

Speaker 15 his

Speaker 15 you believe he's a good person and he would never scam you he would never lie to you and so it becomes easier to invest in his programs in his books because look at what good he is doing you begin to believe that like if ray said we gave this money to this charity i started to give to it like for example at one of his events he heavily promoted operation underground railroad and i gave like 500 to that at one of his events because and because i just thought ray is promoting this it's where it gets to this point where you're not you know you're not thinking for yourself if it's like monkey see monkey do

Speaker 15 he does it i want to be successful like him so i'm going to do it too say

Speaker 15 you became ray higdon what did you want your life to look like if i'm being honest it was like i need to live in a mansion i need to drive a fancy car i need to take exotic vacations and brag about it all just like ray does i mean

Speaker 15 I never said those exact words to myself, but like looking back at like when I envisioned myself driving a Mercedes, it was more for like the Mercedes part of it, not, I want a reliable car.

Speaker 15 As much as like I, I convince myself, because like your morality, you're in a constant battle with your own morality.

Speaker 15 So you convince yourself that I want to drive this Mercedes because it's a reliable car and it's an SUV and I need a bigger car because I have three kids. As much as you try to remain practical,

Speaker 15 you're just so effed

Speaker 15 that you're like, no, this is about the Mercedes and I deserve it. It's a sense of entitlement to.

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Speaker 15 More in your life and why shouldn't you deserve that?

Speaker 15 So I become this coach.

Speaker 15 And people pay $5,000 to join Inner Circle. I'm getting paid $22 a session to have a half an hour to an hour phone call with these people.

Speaker 15 And what it was, is like, tell me your goals, which they already know their goals. What? Now they're just telling them to me.
Okay, so

Speaker 15 when do you want to make this amount of money by, or when do you want to recruit this many people by the end of the year?

Speaker 15 So then it's like, okay, well, if you're doing this by the end of the year, it's like this

Speaker 15 strategy that isn't really a strategy because it depends on your ability ability to manipulate people, how, like, probably attractive, funny, smart, like, who do you know? Like,

Speaker 15 but because you feel like you've cracked the code on this business, you like, I have knowledge, like, I've figured it out. I am worthy of teaching other people how to do the same thing.

Speaker 15 There's also no regulation in the coaching industry. You see these coaches selling

Speaker 15 today only, it's $1,111

Speaker 15 regularly valued at $5,997.

Speaker 15 I've literally seen coaches on Instagram be on vacation

Speaker 15 in their feed doing a Facebook Live saying,

Speaker 15 we are planning on staying here another week. So for today only, I'm offering my coaching services for $9.97.

Speaker 8 Like when you really think about that, they need to pay for their family vacation to stay another week and they are just trying to sell you more coaching packages but jennifer wasn't yet allowed to set her own prices she spent about a year making that 22 an hour as a coach in training along with going to conferences and even getting up on stage with ray jennifer take it away hello

Speaker 15 All right,

Speaker 18 I want to share with you the power of affirmations and how you can use them to overcome your fear of success in leadership. If that's you, I can relate.

Speaker 18 And I'm going to give you a tip that'll help you think differently about it. It's not that you have a fear of success.

Speaker 18 It's that you have a fear of struggling and you've equated success to having to struggle. And if you think that success means struggle, then of course you would have resistance to it.

Speaker 8 But like she said, she was having this fight with herself the whole time. Was she a good guy or a bad guy? Was she actually helping people? Was this the right thing for her and her family?

Speaker 15 I was pouring everything into

Speaker 15 inner circle coaching and my clients. And I actually started to grind my teeth like really badly from like stress and anxiety.

Speaker 15 And I went to the dentist and they were like, you need to have dental surgery. Like your grinding of your teeth is like pushing this for it.

Speaker 15 I like was starting to get a gap in my teeth that I didn't have.

Speaker 8 before

Speaker 8 it's very cute. Thank you.

Speaker 15 But they may

Speaker 15 suggested that I get this gum surgery in the back because it was like tearing from grind. I don't know.
Well, it was due to stress. And so I took that time off.

Speaker 15 So then I have this dental surgery. I schedule it in December.
I arrange ahead of time. I move all of my coaching clients and calls because I am now up to like

Speaker 15 40 clients at this point. Like I'm,

Speaker 15 I had coaching calls like every day.

Speaker 15 And so I did, I worked overtime. I got all of them out of the way just so I could have this dental surgery.
And I'm in pain. I can't speak.
I'm hopped up on like, I have pain medication, antibiotics.

Speaker 15 And I get a call from like our boss, who's not Ray, but, and he's like, hey, you know, hey, Jennifer, what are you doing? Cause we have this difficult client. And I was so good at my job.

Speaker 15 Like I was good at speaking with difficult people because of my social work background and

Speaker 15 having crucial conversations with people and dealing with sensitive subjects and like just all of these things. And

Speaker 15 that was used, like, it was exploited to their benefit, like, right?

Speaker 15 So, he calls me and he says, We have this difficult client that wants to quit her coaching. And I'm like, I can barely talk.
I just had surgery. Like, didn't you see I took the days off?

Speaker 15 And he was like, Well, if you can save this client, meaning like get her to not quit and have them not refund their money,

Speaker 15 then we'll throw in a bonus for you.

Speaker 15 And I remember the look on Derek, my husband's face. He's like,

Speaker 15 Are you really going to say yes to this? And I'm like, Yeah, he goes, You don't even have to talk. Don't worry about it.
You don't even have to talk. You just listen to her.

Speaker 15 She just really needs someone to listen to. I don't know why somebody else couldn't have done it, but I do.

Speaker 8 Yeah. Well, why?

Speaker 15 why just because they wanted to test you oh yeah you were at your weakest moment it's true they probably was a test in loyalty or something

Speaker 15 let's see how committed you are in your lowest point you're so right and they probably knew i was questioning things They probably could tell because I had backed away because I had been like this gung-ho, like all-in person.

Speaker 15 I've never thought about that before.

Speaker 15 So I'm like, yeah, put her on the phone. I'll talk to her.
And I did for almost two hours.

Speaker 15 I could barely talk. And I told her, like, I could barely talk, but and I just listened to her.

Speaker 15 And she was difficult, but like,

Speaker 15 she had valid concerns. And because I was questioning, it actually was very helpful for me to be like,

Speaker 15 she's not the only one thinking this.

Speaker 15 And so because I, I wasn't on, I was not in the defend Ray Higdon and Rank Makers mode, I really did do feel like that's how I saved her because she felt like we were on the same level.

Speaker 15 Well, when she signed back up, I never got that bonus.

Speaker 15 She, he, I was then told, well, she, let's see if she renews, if she sticks it out for the six months, you know, we'll make it even, we'll make it even better for you, right?

Speaker 15 It was always this dangling carrot that you're chasing. And I just was so exhausted, I like didn't care.

Speaker 15 So, a friend of mine who was like very influential in Ray's group,

Speaker 15 just, I mean, she was amazing on video. Ray like always recognized her for things.

Speaker 15 She had left earlier that year because she created a course for him that he bundled up and sold and never paid her a dime for.

Speaker 15 So

Speaker 15 I had been talking to her a little bit.

Speaker 15 Um, but I still, it's like that cognitive dissonance would like shut down my brain. Like, I could only like speak to her a little bit because it's like, I still felt like I needed to be in two places.

Speaker 15 But at this point, because I'm, I'm so pissed off and I'm actually allowing myself to be pissed off for like the first time in probably eight years. I'm, I'm, that's not an exaggeration.

Speaker 15 And I have this moment, like,

Speaker 15 oh my god i'm in a cult like it was just like everything she was talking about like with behavior control and information control and emotional control and manipulation and

Speaker 15 and i'm like wait what and so i'm like googling i'm like starting to do all this on my own and

Speaker 15 so i'm I message her and I say, I'm working on my exit strategy. Like, I see it.

Speaker 15 But I still didn't know how to leave.

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Speaker 8 Jennifer didn't really have time to figure out that exit strategy before her next meeting with Ray.

Speaker 15 We had a monthly meeting with Ray as coaches where basically we went to him with questions. And I'm going to shut my camera off.
I don't even know if I can look at him.

Speaker 15 I don't know what to do. But I never felt like I was going to say something.
Like I still felt so confused and alone. I wasn't quite sure.

Speaker 8 And one of my colleagues who had expressed that she was concerned about some of the things we were doing as coaches, she asks Ray, Ray, I'll interrupt Jennifer right here because this meeting of a handful of folks, the chosen ones who were working as coaches for Ray, it happened over Zoom.

Speaker 8 And all of these meetings were recorded so people can return to them.

Speaker 19 All right.

Speaker 19 Go for it.

Speaker 19 Who's got something?

Speaker 8 We have those recordings, and we don't want to use the voices of anyone but Ray and Jennifer. So I'll paraphrase the actual question this other coach asked him.

Speaker 8 She said, Ray, I have a coaching client who's been having a bit of a hard time, a bit of a downward spiral. We uncovered like where that came from.

Speaker 8 She was holding a lot of blame for something that happened in her childhood. I don't know if the awareness is enough to change things, and I'm curious if you have any other suggestions.

Speaker 15 He took it upon himself to just pitch his new book.

Speaker 19 I would really embrace, it's really one of the reasons that our next book, which

Speaker 19 sounds like is going to get picked up soon,

Speaker 19 but our next book is called Defiance. And

Speaker 19 I think that

Speaker 19 helped them embrace the concept of defiance of, you know, when you're not feeling like doing it, anytime you you do it, whatever that is, when you don't feel like doing it, you're building that, you're building your self-worth, you're building your self-esteem, you're building that defiance muscle so you get stronger.

Speaker 19 And so that's, that's what I would embrace with her. And you may even set some defiant goals of, okay,

Speaker 19 how about this week we go for five defiance?

Speaker 19 I want you to locate the things you know you should do that you're not doing. And I want you to do them.

Speaker 19 You know, be defiant to your emotion and feeling because you're the master of your emotions if you choose to be, and do that thing.

Speaker 19 And the more that you do that thing, then the more self-belief you're going to have, and the more you're going to be able to easily do the things you know you should be doing.

Speaker 15 And he said the word defiance like 37 times. That's not even an exaggeration.

Speaker 15 And I recognized it as neurolinguistic programming through all the stuff I was reading.

Speaker 15 And then

Speaker 15 he started to use all of these tactics like information control, behavior control, emotional control. He started like telling us what emotions were acceptable and ones, what were not.

Speaker 15 And like my brain was like firing on all cylinders. Like I'm like, I could, I was just like checking off everything that I was reading about.
He is emotionally manipulating us right now.

Speaker 15 He is controlling us. So then normally I was the person in the meeting who was like, like writing, taking all these notes, raising my hand, like smiling, like being so happy.

Speaker 15 And I think he noticed it on my face that there was a change.

Speaker 15 And he wanted to, like, what every leader of a high control environment wants to do is they want to make sure that they check your disobedience. So I think he saw it as like,

Speaker 15 like, what's with the look on Jennifer's face?

Speaker 19 And so he's like, ryala what's going on lady in red

Speaker 15 nothing what's going on with you

Speaker 19 such a

Speaker 18 what an endearing tone does anyone have a question i i don't really agree with the advice i feel like it's teaching people to deny their intuition okay

Speaker 18 so what would you advise in that situation So I always think when people have like feelings that come up, I don't think they're emotional addictions. i think especially for women like

Speaker 18 their feelings that come up are valid and that's almost like how women move through things

Speaker 18 and i think like continuing to tell people like just distract from your emotions in activity that will get people to success but they end up burned out i mean i hear people all the time who are like You know, there's so much activity.

Speaker 18 There's so many trainings.

Speaker 18 Like we just had the Reels Challenge and the Influencer brand secrets and now there's this 1k challenge and it's like all a huge distraction from what they really need to be doing with their business and then what happens is we come to you with this information and you say oh it's something wrong with their mindset and so i just think for lack of a better word it's all bullshit nice

Speaker 19 i i appreciate that

Speaker 18 Because if we just keep perpetuating this idea that these people don't know themselves, then they're always going to feel like they're not enough.

Speaker 18 And they're always going to be like, I need to invest in this course and this program and this training. And they're always going to be like chasing this

Speaker 18 ideal of like

Speaker 18 time, money, freedom.

Speaker 8 Cool.

Speaker 18 And if people are coming into this program to get results in their network marketing business, I get that.

Speaker 18 There are a lot of people that are sold this program that have no business being here, that have deep emotional issues and are not even at the point of taking any action.

Speaker 18 And yet they're sold the program and we're supposed to pick up the slack for that. We are like glorified counselors.

Speaker 18 And so

Speaker 18 then I then I would suggest that at the sales level, Are you just selling the program to sell the program? Are you actually selling it to the people that need it?

Speaker 18 And I don't think that that is consistent.

Speaker 8 Some of the other women on the call jumped in to defend Ray, not Jennifer.

Speaker 8 Here's another paraphrased quote from the woman who originally got the conversation started after hearing what Jennifer had to say.

Speaker 8 Sometimes they don't have the information and it's like showing them where the information is and then helping them apply it.

Speaker 8 Like, there's all these trainings and I now set them up in advance and say, hey, just so you know, there's a ton of information here. It's like a reference library.

Speaker 8 You wouldn't go into a reference library and try to read everything all at once. I feel like that's my responsibility, to direct them to the right information and the right tasks.

Speaker 19 If they're saying, hey, I would like to work on the emotional stuff, then we need to help them and as best as we can get into some kind of action.

Speaker 18 Well, last time this was brought up, your answer was to sell them more coaching.

Speaker 18 And so that's the kind of stuff that I feel like, is this really about helping people or is it just about selling results?

Speaker 19 Last time this was brought up, it was to sell them more coaching.

Speaker 11 What does that mean?

Speaker 18 The last time we had a meeting with you and it was brought up, like people not getting results, whether they weren't taking action or not,

Speaker 18 people not getting results, your answer was to sell them more coaching.

Speaker 18 Get them in the program. Sell them more coaching.

Speaker 18 If they get to our event, if they sign up for another round, we know that we can help them, but we're not helping them. So it's not fair to the client.
to just sell them more coaching.

Speaker 18 That doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 8 Then another attendee jumps in.

Speaker 8 Sometimes they're perfectly fine, stuck for a little while, and that's where they need to be. So I don't know.
I'm not sure why the energy of this today feels the way it does.

Speaker 18 The energy is assued because I've just been thinking this for a long time and I'm finally brave enough to say it.

Speaker 18 I'm finally not jumping on this call like fawning at Ray's feet and I'm allowed to speak out. Because some of them are coming to us with, I need, like, I'm struggling mentally.

Speaker 18 And I feel like we're coached to tell them well what happened in your childhood to make you feel that way and it's like that's just like shame and bringing up like trauma when we're not licensed therapists to do so so one

Speaker 19 you know we we create options As a coach, if they're asking you, hey, should I do this? If you don't think they should, then don't sell it to them, right? It's not that big of a deal.

Speaker 19 I think the incongruence of if if you've hated this for so long, like

Speaker 19 I don't, I don't know why you've stuck around if you hate what we're doing here and you hate, you think that I'm

Speaker 8 evil guy or whatever.

Speaker 18 I never said hate. I just see the

Speaker 19 strong emotion and

Speaker 19 I appreciate it.

Speaker 18 But I never said hate.

Speaker 19 I wouldn't stay in an arena

Speaker 19 if I felt this way.

Speaker 15 Can you hear me?

Speaker 19 Yes.

Speaker 18 I never said hey.

Speaker 8 That was the last time Ray and Jennifer ever spoke. Her passwords were taken away.
She lost a bunch of friends. And now she spends a lot of her time, one,

Speaker 8 loving on her children and her husband.

Speaker 8 Two, hunting for morel mushrooms, which I taught her to do when I was there, but didn't record it because I was a little paranoid that one of you sleuths would hear something in the background, like a train perhaps, or a certain bird call, and you'd be able to deduce the sweet spots full of morels that we found within like the first half hour of looking.

Speaker 8 So anyway, I didn't record that, but it did happen. I think we got like two dozen first outing.
Seriously.

Speaker 8 And three, she's spending her time helping other people out of the situation she found herself in.

Speaker 8 Follow her on TikTok at Jennifer, spelled like J-E-N-N-I-F-E-R dot Ryala, spelled like R-A-J-A-L-A, A L A, if you can believe it.

Speaker 15 For eight years, I poured my blood, sweat, and tears into an MLM to create success. I became a VP within that company, which is like the top 2%.

Speaker 15 And I was even recruited to become a coach within the industry across many companies.

Speaker 15 And I have no idea when it happened, but before I knew it, all of my time was consumed by the mission of these groups.

Speaker 15 I was coerced to constantly be losing and chasing time and money and calling it freedom. And so I'm using this page to tell my story about how I woke up from this cult behavior.

Speaker 15 I loved coaching others for a long time. I loved my company.
I loved the products that they had. I loved my upline.
So it's not what you think.

Speaker 15 I really just woke up and could no longer ignore all the bad vibes in an industry that preaches good vibes only.

Speaker 15 Again, I just want to make things right for myself and for those I've hurt. I'm healing.
And I no longer care about, you know, only seeing the positive and putting a positive spin on all this.

Speaker 15 I want to be honest so that it doesn't happen to you or someone that you love.

Speaker 8 Coming up on the dream, the one thing you need to know and be really good at to manipulate people, change their mindsets, and get them to pay you for it.

Speaker 8 Did you just hypnotize me in any way?

Speaker 8 Not necessarily.

Speaker 8 Say more. Well,

Speaker 2 I'm trying to condition you.

Speaker 8 What is

Speaker 8 neuro-linguistic? What is linguistic programming?

Speaker 20 Well, neuro-linguistic programming means neuro, the mind-body connection.

Speaker 8 But, like, I don't understand. What are you saying? Okay, so.

Speaker 8 Okay, so

Speaker 20 our world, our map, is made up of our five senses.

Speaker 2 Okay. Okay.
Yep.

Speaker 8 Do I have to be doing this all the time? No. So, what is the MLP part?

Speaker 8 Jesus.

Speaker 14 I just want you to give me the.

Speaker 20 Let me give you a process.

Speaker 8 The Dream is written, hosted, and executive produced by me, Jane Marie. Our producer is Mike Richter, with help from Nancy Golumbiski and Joy Sanford.

Speaker 15 Our editor is Peter Clowney.

Speaker 8 The Dream is a co-production of Little Everywhere and Pushkin Industries.

Speaker 8 If you love this show, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus, offering bonus content, exclusive binge opportunities, and ad-free listening across our network for just $6.99 a month.

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