S2 E6: Magnets: How Do They Work?

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Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

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Previously on the dream.

I had a patient who had a C-section for a rest of descent, which means that you're 100% dilated and you've pushed, and the baby is not going to come out of the vagina.

So this woman had a C-section and the next day she was

still questioning the decision to have the C-section.

And she asked me, Well, what would have happened 100 years ago

if I was in this situation?

And I looked at her and I said, You and the baby both would have died.

And she said, Oh, well, that's dramatic.

Okay, so I'm going to make one of these protein shakes.

Okay.

That's gross.

It's early October and I'm headed out to the first of many wellness treatments I've booked around LA.

Sure, I've tried yoga and meditation and CBD and all the sort of normal or at least not outright criminal sounding wellness stuff.

But I wanted to try the wilder ones.

The ones that Gwyneth Paltrow and her friends know about but that I've never heard of.

And in order to do that, we have to go to the cartoonishly wealthy part of LA.

The part where enough people have enough expendable income to have really great health insurance and a house call service where they drip vitamins into your arm via IV while you sit on your beautiful couch in your formal living room filming your reality television show with your daughters.

That's the stuff I want to see.

Though not that one in particular, because gross.

So off we go on what we're calling my tour of hellness.

Dan's here.

Hi.

Dan picks me up a little past 9 a.m., which is rush hour, yes, but every hour is rush hour when you're heading from the east side of LA to the uber wealthy west side, like we are.

The upshot to sitting in traffic traffic like this is that I'm going to have a lot of time to explain to Dan what little I know about what's about to happen.

Thank you for driving me, first of all.

No problem.

But yeah, okay, so

why am I driving you to Brentwood?

What's happening here?

Well, I actually, I do want you to drive because I don't know what's about to happen and I'm not sure if I'll be able to drive after.

What treatment is this, though?

Hang on.

All right, here's here's what happened.

I

started following a lot of wellness people and looking at wellness products and hashtags on Instagram and on my phone in general.

And since Instagram knows everything you're doing, stuff started popping up in my feed.

And the service showed up called Reggie.

See, here it is.

How beautiful is that?

Discover aesthetic and curated beauty treatments.

And so you put in your location, which is Los Angeles,

and then you can scroll between like injectables,

massages, body contouring, nails, and wellness.

So I went to wellness, I searched, and it lets you like instantly book a bunch of weird wellness things.

And that's how I'm getting all my stuff done.

So let me scroll down to the one that we're doing today.

We're headed to a place called Sauna Bar.

And on the booking site, there's a very cubrician photo of something glowing.

Is that the pod you're going to be in?

I have no idea.

I know what I'm just seeing.

It looks like a butterfly.

There's two red pods opened up like you would lay in them.

Oh, you're looking at the whole thing.

See, I see two clamshells.

It's a wellness Rorschach test.

Here's what I'm going to do today.

It's called the Magnosphere.

Magnetic resonance technology to enhance relaxation while relieving stiffness, pain, and stress.

I banged my

calf this morning when I was putting my shoes on.

I sat down on my couch

on the corner of my couch.

I hit my calf.

That's how I'm going to judge if the Magnosphere works.

Because I can feel the soreness in my calf like I'm going to get a Charlie horse.

If I walk out of the Magnosphere or roll out, I don't even know if you go in it.

I don't know what if I hold, maybe it's the thing you hold.

So is there something like, are we magnetic?

That's what I was going to ask the person when I get in there.

I'm assuming so because we stick to the earth.

Okay.

But that's also just gravity.

Sanabar is in a multi-level mall with an open-air atrium in the middle.

There are a few sushi restaurants, a blow-dry bar, some offices.

The inside of of this place is very white.

White desks and walls and white furniture.

White is often the interior color of choice among very rich people.

Go figure.

Kim, a self-described wellness coach, is helping me out today and hands me a clipboard.

I sit down to fill out my paperwork and there, right in front of me on a shelf, is a display of essential oils for sale.

doTERRA essential oils, the MLM.

When I'm finished, she walks me past those clamshell-looking things Dan and I were puzzled by.

And I guess that's not where I'm headed.

Instead, I'm in a tiny room along with...

This looks cool.

I didn't expect...

So it's like a...

It looks like a

captain's chair.

Spaceship?

Yeah.

Starship Enterprise captain's chair sort of view.

With, yeah, like, it looks like being inside of a giant wheel well.

What you're going to lift up, kind of like a captain's chair, and you're going to be leaning back.

Now it goes all the way back.

It's not going to tip over.

But it does feel like you're going to tip all the way back.

It's a zero gravity position.

So it's taking the pressure off your cardiovascular.

And what are you putting in the...

What is this?

That's what runs the different protocols.

So it's connected, but that's what tells us what to do.

Okay.

Okay.

So this is an electromagnetic resonance machine, basically.

So what that everything in life has an electrical sort of impulse current to it, including that's that's how our cells talk to each other, our nervous cells, they send millions and millions of these signals every single day, minute, second, pretty much, depending on what we're doing, is how they communicate.

So the body has this electromagnetic energy, computers have a different type of electromagnetic energy, and what happens is these invisible forces actually do play a role on our own health and well-being.

So this here is designed to help try balance out and calm some of that energy in the body then our body will naturally start to do all of the things so these machines don't heal people but they create the environment that allows your body to do what it does best okay right

so if people are claiming that these are healing you it's actually not it's creating the correct environment where your body can actually calm down and when we're out of that stressed state

our body you know it knows what to do it knows exactly what to do and how to do it its primary function is to find homeostasis balance and find the path of least resistance.

Right, right.

So that's what we get in the way.

I appreciate Kim's disclaimer that this magnosphere isn't actually going to do anything, that the way it quote works is to get my body in the mood to do its own job.

But then I start to wonder if that's mostly because I'm going to spend a half an hour in a room with dim lighting and calming music.

And if that's the case,

if that's the real treat, the real way my body will get in the mood to do its own job,

then why is she charging me 70 bucks for it i have chairs and light switches at home

okay and do i need to take my earrings off no that's fine

What happened?

Jesus Christ.

All right.

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Like the hydrogen in H2O?

Like, isn't there, isn't water two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen?

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Basic has evolved.

All right, where do I begin?

Um, the jig was up when she didn't make me take my jewelry off

inside of a magnetic thingamabobber.

That's weird.

The main thing was I had to be in this chair where I was like leaned all the way back and my legs were up.

And I think that's the whole thing that makes you feel anything because you're like upside down a little bit with your head back and your feet up in the air.

I was trying the whole time to feel like to sense something, but nothing was happening except for one thing that did happen a lot, which I am embarrassed to admit.

But if I was someone who was like, oh, I need this to be doing something to my body and I wanted it, I wanted to believe, it makes you fart.

And they spray a bunch of lavender stuff in the room beforehand because she's like, oh, this will make it like a more sensory experience.

And I'm like, no, you're just covering up up all the farts in the room,

and then my feet went numb because I was kind of upside down.

So, there was a lot of stuff happening because of the chair.

So, that was a total waste of time and money.

One, my leg felt the same after I left, and two, if you need to get a fart out, just tip upside down.

Gas rises.

You can Venmo me 70 bucks if you want.

All right, today we're going to Beverly Hills.

And I'm getting ear seeds.

What is an ear seed?

These 24 karat, this is on Neiman Marcus's website.

These 24 karat plated ion seeds stimulate reflex centers of the brain to help you achieve your calm, happy, detox, and pain-free experience.

Wait, detox-free or detox and pain.

What?

Enjoy the golden look, the nourishing feeling, and this unique approach to easing your symptoms.

Should I flag all of these reviews on Neiman Marcus as inappropriate?

Here they are.

Ready?

These are the reviews.

Goldear.com.

This is a review.

From Goldear.com.

Uh-huh.

My feelings are pure and honest.

The pressure points are spot on, all caps.

I couldn't be more at peace with myself.

These are fat

buwless.

Not quite sure, says Judith.

they're gonna set something down on my ear and then they're gonna be like see

you feel more balanced but they're probably gonna put me in a weird chair again or something they're gonna like spin me around in circles and make me dizzy and then lay me down and put these ear seeds on and be like oh you're rebalanced

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Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Berner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same.

They're so light and so comfy.

And if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery, soft, and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

See site for details.

Do you know where we're going?

I'm sorry.

Yeah, you're supposed to be taking a left on Beverly, which you just passed.

So go left on Rodeo Drive.

This is so stupid.

Oh my god.

Prada.

Gucci.

Prada.

I feel like I should start rapping, but I don't know how.

I guess.

I am.

Another St.

Laurent.

There's two Saint Laurents on the street.

Botega, Venita, Valentino, Doljeng, Gabbana, Dior, Piaget.

Okay, so there's Barney's.

It's, oh, ha, you know what?

It's inside the Neiman Marcus.

That's why they're selling them at Neiman Marcus.

Okay, I want everything.

Where is so?

It's VIE.

We're in the jewelry department, but nobody seems to work here.

Look at that sequin coat.

Hang on.

$12,000.

I headed for the jewelry department based on the photo I saw of the ear seeds, which looked like tiny gold earrings stuck to supposed pressure points on your earlobe.

But no one knew what I was talking about when I was asking them for this service.

Eventually, a woman sent me downstairs to a weird corner of the cosmetics department where there was a reception table set up with macaroons and champagne flutes full of water.

And I waited and waited and waited about 15 minutes for someone to show up.

Eventually, someone did, but she didn't have great news.

I got stood up.

By who?

I don't know.

Someone who works for that company.

Today I learned that there is a spa in the basement of Neiman Marcus.

That says it's a spa, but really it's just like three rooms off of the cosmetics department.

And they said, She's not here yet.

And then 10 minutes later, they handed me a phone, and a guy was on the phone.

And he said,

The service that you used to book the appointment booked you at 11.

And I said, No, they didn't because they texted me and emailed and gave me a calendar alert that my appointment's at 10 because I asked for an appointment at 10.

And he said, No, they booked you at 11.

This next procedure is what I I have heard of because my aunt, not Amy, but another aunt, her sister, owns a machine similar to the one I'm about to get hooked up to.

It's called a Rife machine and it was invented in the 1930s by a guy named Royal R.

Reif.

His name was Royal.

And it claims to work in a way that's similar to those essential oils, you know, vibrating frequencies and whatnot.

I've never seen the machine in person before, but in pictures, it looks a lot like an e-meter.

Those machines that Scientologists use with cans you hold onto while someone grills you about your childhood trauma.

Kind of looks like that.

So, to find a clinic that has one, we end up driving to a not super rich part of town.

The office building this clinic is in is all brown glass and metal, about four stories with no real signage, and it's on a dusty corner opposite a gas station.

It feels more normal.

That is, until I step inside and I'm assaulted by a sound that I can't immediately identify.

how are you all?

Good, how are you?

First of all, the place is tiny, which is fine, but not super fine when I'm told the procedure I'm getting is going to take place right next to the front desk, which is right in front of the waiting area, which was currently hosting a pre-teen boy playing his Nintendo Switch out loud.

Though you can't quite hear the pre-teen dude on his Nintendo Switch because there's an oxygen chamber sitting right next to the waiting area and it's running full blast.

And by oxygen chamber, I mean a domed enclosure made out of what looks like it's trying to look like Kevlar.

It's got a zipper on it and hoses running hither and yon.

I am doing the rice.

Oh the ride?

Yeah, I think I have a 1.30 appointment because I booked through a service online.

Do you know what you want to do on the ride or you want to look through?

I think it's just depression and anxiety.

Depression and anxiety.

Do I do it myself?

Well, you literally just sit and hold onto paddles and you cannot close your eyes.

Oh, okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

All right, guys, I don't know how to say this, but this place was a fucking mess.

Stacks of paper all over the front desk, smudges on the walls, things held together with duct tape, and severely faded posters touting the benefits of various alternative therapies the clinic offers.

The receptionist pulls out a three-ring reference binder of codes for the Rife machine, each ailment with its own special set of numbers that she must plug in.

34 minutes?

Okay, Ready depression for IMD.

So you might feel a little tingled, but other than that, you're going to take my jewelry off?

No, it's fine.

Okay.

Oh, whoa.

It'll sniff.

Yeah.

It feels fine.

So right now it's on like a three.

Uh-huh.

Which is, that's what I do, like a three.

But if you wanted a higher eye trend, you don't want to start too high.

Yeah.

But if you feel it now, then we're good.

We don't need to go up that fire.

Okay.

But you do feel it.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it says you're at a good

pulse.

Okay.

I asked for help with depression and anxiety.

And when she enters the code for depression and anxiety, it says that it's going to run for 50 minutes.

But then I explain that my appointment is only 30 minutes.

And she says, okay, no problem.

We'll do 30.

Very scientific.

As I sit there holding on to the things, One person exits the oxygen tent and three different clients come out of rooms that I later find out are where the colonics are performed.

And as they leave, every single one of them lingers at the front desk, chatting about how their colonic went and what service they'd like to book next.

It's clear that these people see a lot of each other, and it feels like eavesdropping on very body-focused therapy sessions.

Not one of them leaves without booking another procedure.

After 30 minutes, I run out of there as fast as I can and rejoin Dan.

Anyway,

woof.

She thought I was there for some other treatment, which was like a liver and kidney cleanse, detox.

Sorry, liver and kidney detox.

She's like, well, what we do is we put a couple paddles on, and then it breaks everything up and flushes it out in your feces, urine, and blood.

And I was like, wait, blood?

How does my blood come out?

So enough of me knowing less than the people I keep accusing of knowing nothing about the stuff they're doing to me.

I have a million questions about what all of that was.

Every person I spoke to at these facilities kind of reminded me of my Aunt Amy in that they all had a spiel involving frequencies or magnetic forces, things like that.

I considered asking a doctor if any of these treatments were legit, but I'd have to talk to a hundred physicians and I know they'd all tell me the same thing.

No.

And that's not what my burning question was anyway.

My burning question was, is this actual science?

Do these frequencies and magnetism actually do anything to your body?

So that's why I found a real live quantum physicist who understands how frequencies and magnetism and all that other junk really works on a molecular level.

Dr.

Liam Dodd studies antimatter physics and he did his PhD work at CERN, you know, where the Large Hadron Collider is.

Hello, Liam.

Hi.

That's coming up.

My name is Dr.

Liam Dudd.

I have a PhD in physics, specializing in experimental antimatter physics.

I worked at CEA in Paris, which is the atomic energy facility in Paris that does lots of research there.

It's where they built the first experimental reactors in France.

And after that, I moved and carried on my doctoral research working at CERN.

Can you tell us a little more about what CERN is?

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Service fees apply.

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Ready to elevate your skincare?

Introducing Medicate, a clinically proven dermatologist-recommended British skincare brand known for age-defying results.

You may have heard about growth factors as the must-have anti-aging ingredient, and that's why Medicate is excited about their latest innovation, the Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum.

This serum harnesses the power of Growth Factor Miniprotein, a cutting-edge technology that mimics natural growth factors but goes deeper, delivering visible, transformative results.

Studies show immediate improvement in expression lines in just 10 minutes and a significant decrease in deep-set wrinkles after eight weeks of use.

The Liquid Peptides Advanced MP Face Serum not only reduces wrinkles, but also gives a filler-like effect, smoothing out your skin's appearance dramatically.

Visit medicate.us.

That's M-E-D-I-K and the number 8.us.

Use code podcast20 for 20% off your purchase today.

Hey, I'm Paige DeSorbo, and I'm always thinking about underwear.

I'm Hannah Bruner, and I'm also thinking about underwear, but I prefer full coverage.

I like to call them my granny panties.

Actually, I never think about underwear.

That's the magic of Tommy John.

Same, they're so light and so comfy, and if it's not comfortable, I'm not wearing it.

And the bras, bras, soft, supportive, and actually breathable.

Yes, Lord knows the girls need to breathe.

Also, I need my PJs to breathe and be buttery soft and stretchy enough for my dramatic tossing and turning at night.

That's why I live in my Tommy John pajamas.

Plus, they're so cute because they fit perfectly.

Put yourself on to Tommy John.

Upgrade your drawer with Tommy John.

Save 25% for a limited time at tommyjohn.com/slash comfort.

See site for details.

It's got a French acronym, but it's basically the center of European nuclear research.

It's the single biggest particle physics experiment.

I think the biggest physics experiments

on the planet.

It's most famous these days for the LHC, which is the Large Hadron Collider, which is a huge accelerating ring that goes underneath France and Switzerland, where they accelerate protons to 99.9999999% of the speed of light, and then smash them together and see what comes out.

They discovered the Higgs bores on in 2012, which was obviously the major discovery they were hoping to find.

But they also do lots of other work.

And the group I worked for was part of the Antimatter Factory, working for an experiment that was hoping to produce stable charged anti-hydrogen ions so that we could then trap them, cool them, and then measure the gravitational acceleration of an antimatter atom in an Earth field.

Okay, so Liam knows magnetism, quantum mechanics, vibrations, positive and negative charges in the body.

To someone like him, did any of these treatments make sense?

So you heard our first episode where we were talking about essential oils and their frequencies.

What did you think of what we read in the Young Living Oils handbook?

It was the

major issue I have with the way that bonus centers and essential oils and all those co-opt quantum mechanics is that they treat the word quantum as if it means weird or spooky or like something that's like hard to understand.

They suddenly think, well that means everything weird we can now explain with quantum mechanics.

When all quantum mechanics, like the name comes from, the energy is quantized at that kind of level of that level of physics.

So when things are very small, for example, for an electron to transition between two states in an atom, it has to have an exact energy transition.

It can't have nearly the same amount or a little bit more.

It has to have the exact kind of amount.

So that's all the quantum mechanics means.

So it's a very, very rigorous mathematical branch of physics.

So when I hear in things like the Young Living Manual, when they talk about how, well, you can take this oil and it will balance your vibrational frequencies to something that's better or whatever.

It drives me nuts because there's enough science-y words that people who don't know anything about quantum mechanics will assume that there must be some science behind it, which ignores so much basic rudimentary biology and quite basic quantum mechanics that it's ludicrous.

And you have people tricked because they assume that like an MRI machine uses quantum mechanics,

cancer treatment uses quantum mechanics, so there must be something in this oil that also uses quantum mechanics when there isn't.

There's just nothing there.

It's just a lie.

In addition to looking into the frequencies of essential oils, we sent Dr.

Dodd information about Royal R.

Reif and his machine and how I was quote treated for my depression and anxiety by it.

The problem with Rife and like other kind of technical snake oil salesmen is that it's really hard to understand what they're trying to do because there's so little science behind it.

So when you like he describes his like his beam ray that could kill pathogens, which

There's no real explanation for like how any of that can work.

There are certain things like ultrasonic frequencies that can like heat up cells and

damage them or kill them.

There are like ionizing radiation which can kill cells.

But his things seem to be generally that if you found the right electrical frequency to vibrate people at,

that would somehow kill pathogens or kill cancer or whatever kind of thing it was.

And I see they've also, because I read his like early 1930s stuff and didn't really talk about mental health, but I assume they've now moved the market there because it's another place to make money.

But there's just no,

I just can't understand how it's meant to work.

I just don't get any mechanism by which it's supposed to work.

The thing that I found in common with that and the essential oils is that they, the mode of application would be systemic.

It's not targeted.

So,

you know, like if they plug in a certain frequency and I'm holding two paddles or whatever in my hands,

how is the vibration supposed to find the place in my body?

Even if it were, like, this is assuming a lot,

but let's say it did work or the oil did work.

How does the oil find the right spot in my body to, I feel like it's a complete misunderstanding of like how our system works.

Yeah, because I think

I'm not a medical doctor.

I know stuff, but I'm not a medical doctor.

And like, I think people can get confused, especially when you think about if you have dental pain, for example, and you take a painkiller, somehow your dental pain stops hurting.

And if you have a sore wrist and you take an ibuprofen, somehow your wrist stops hurting.

And there's a lot to do with how the drugs bind with us and how that affects our pain receptors, for example.

So people kind of have an assumption that, well, your body kind of works it out by itself.

Especially when you get a lot of pseudoscience that talks about how our body knows what it needs best and like listen to what your body says.

Your body's smarter than people tell you it is.

So ibuprofen works by inhibiting prostaglandins, which are found all over your body, and they're responsible for inflammation and pain.

Take one and the thing that's hurting stops hurting for a bit.

But with a Rife machine, there's no mechanism by which holding onto two low-power electrodes can cure a person of their anxiety.

That's just not the way the physical world works.

I also sent Dr.

Dodd the website of the manufacturers of the Magnosphere, which even they seem oddly confused by.

Once again, it's one of the things where they can take relatively real science and then extrapolate it to the point where it is just magic.

The thing that I looked up this website and I was astonished by the video that told me it doesn't cure anything.

and here's how it's going to cure you, which was a great twist of a video.

But I guess that's a legal thing.

So I don't know.

I'm not American.

I don't quite know how all your laws work.

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But the thing that drove me really nuts is that it compared it to an MRI machine, which explicitly shows you that people who are reading that are being tricked into not knowing what an MRI machine is.

Because the MRI machine is a beautiful piece of technology that was developed in Nottingham by Dr.

Mansfield.

And he found that him and many other contributors found that you could

put the human body or many things under a high magnetic field.

and it would cause the protons in this case to fall out of alignment to where they wouldn't want to be traditionally.

And then when you turn off the field,

the protons fall back into position.

So when the field is on, they deviate from their original position.

And then when you turn it off, they return back to their position.

And then you have detectors around

the person or whatever you're scanning that can interpret these photons into an image that can be read by a radiologist.

I'll try to simplify here.

An MRI is a way of taking a picture of your insides.

That's it.

First, you take your jewelry off, definitely.

And then you lie in a machine, and a very strong magnet is turned on.

And that magnet, on an atomic level, causes protons to move just a tiny bit.

Then the magnet's turned off.

And as those protons move back into place, they release energy in the form of photons, which are like little light particles.

That's what's captured on the image of an MRI.

And so when we're talking about me getting inside a magnosphere, that is not at all what's happening.

No,

because when you get into a static field, like whatever happens happens as you get into the static field.

And then when you lie in the static field, nothing happens because you're just in the static field.

And then when you get out of the static field, you just return to how you were before you were in the magnetic field.

I don't know any other mechanism by which that isn't the case.

I tried looking and I don't really see anything that makes sense.

And their website obviously doesn't tell you how it's meant to work.

Like, I worked around some pretty heavy magnets when I was doing my

studies.

And like, we couldn't go near with credit cards.

And these were like magnets that we just had in our lab.

And we had to say a certain distance of a credit card, or you might just wipe it.

That you could, like, if you moved slowly enough in and out, you could kind of prevent the wiping happening.

So the fact that they didn't take anything or didn't even check for any ferrous material is a sign that it's not really doing anything

can we also talk about the distrust of science like i think a lot of people believe

that scientists like you or doctors um have some secret that you're keeping from the rest of us

and that

somehow you're making money by not telling us how physics works.

while at the same time they think

you don't know any more than they do

um i think that the biggest secret science is keeping from the general public is how little money we make um

just across the board um like

as a phd student i made about 1300 euros a month and I lived in a city with rent that was a thousand euros a month.

So when you do the maths, you realize that I was homeless for periods of my PhD.

So that's the biggest secret that we're keeping from people is that we don't have any money.

But I think the general distrust comes from the fact, I think it comes from two places.

Firstly, science is actually quite hard, like not in a bragging kind of way.

Like just science is difficult.

Any subject done to a high level is difficult.

And then you add in the complexity that the language of science often isn't the natural language in which you otherwise interact with the world.

So for example, if I went into an undergraduate history course, I might not know what's going on to a great extent, but I can at least follow what's happening in the lecture.

I can follow that names are being said and events are being described.

If a history graduate walked into an undergraduate physics course, they might not know what the maths on the board even does.

They might just physically not have the context or learning at that point to know what it does.

And that's not to say they're stupid.

It's just to say that they don't know, which is fair.

I don't know what happened in the Napoleonic Wars, but it generally doesn't affect my life to much extent.

And then you add on that, like in other fields like chemistry and biology, the wording is quite difficult as well.

Like we use things like autonomic nervous system or whatever it was that the ANS, that the machine said it would cured.

These are technical words that have confusing double meanings because if you say someone is nervous and then you talk about the nervous system,

they're different things.

They're not the same word being used for the same context.

So I think to an extent there is a general impenetrability to science when it's not explained well.

I think these days scientists are trying their damnedest to explain it better and trying to get people interested in science and trying to get them to understand what is happening.

Like

I was in my second year at university when

the Large Hadron Collider found the Higgs boson and for the first time in like my experiences, everyone was talking about physics.

Everyone wanted to understand physics.

Everyone know what was going on.

But in general, physics isn't cool and isn't sexy.

Like I spent four and a half years slaving away, and my contribution will be read by 30 to 40 people

probably for the next hundred years.

You add on to that, that science is then attached in some places to such important parts of life, like cancer treatment.

Cancer is like terrifying.

I've lost people to cancer.

I think everyone I know has lost people to cancer.

And if you were told that there was some secret way to cure it, everyone would jump on it.

And then even the word the cure for cancer is itself like a misnomer.

Like there is no cure for cancer.

Cancer is a multitude of different diseases, which is often relatively unique to each individual.

So there will never be a cure for cancer.

There will just be better and better treatments until we get to the point where we can effectively have said we've cured cancer because our treatments are such that cancer isn't a cause of death anymore.

And I think also

on top of that is that there is a relative snootiness among some in the scientific establishment establishment that they think that spending their time talking to average people about physics or chemistry or biology isn't the best use of their time.

They're not the majority, but there's a definite strain of disregard for the rest of society.

And you can feel this a lot when you're at places like CERN in like very subtle ways.

I was in a room where everyone has a doctorate or higher.

Like everyone in the room has that.

And there's like 100 of us in the room.

That is not statistically normal.

That's not statistically average.

There's no way that the rest of society will ever do that.

Like I don't know anyone from my girlfriend's circle of friends that is doing a doctorate.

That's just not the case.

But I know obviously hundreds of people who did them.

So there's kind of an isolationism that builds up within us because we are just in our own circle and in our own separate worlds.

And then, so you have the mixture of the language we use is complicated at times.

We're not always the best at explaining it in simple terms.

We live in effectively relatively isolated groups because we work among people who have the same qualifications as us.

Like, we don't, we, apart from outside of HR and secretaries and cleaners, we don't have staff that have different roles and different backgrounds.

Everyone has the same background.

The kind of perception of eliteness among us, and then the fact that, like, a lot of us use public money to do all our research, and then you have that strand of we're wasting the government's money.

It makes it much more comforting than to say when something is scary in the world, like cancer, to say there's some sort of conspiracy or trick occurring than it is to say that like the world is just random and no one knows what happens for any reason.

Like

I think the reason why

there's a conspiracy that pharmaceutical companies have cured cancer, but they won't give it out because

it's more profitable to not do that is that it's much more comforting to think that there's a scary bogeyman.

and there's nothing you can do about it.

Like you can't do that.

They're rich, they're released, there's nothing you can do about it than it is to kind of stare stare in the face that you don't have a choice whether you get cancer.

Like it just happens.

There's nothing you can do about it in terms of like, you can obviously lower risk factors.

You cannot smoke, you cannot drink, you cannot eat red meat.

But at the end of the day, there's nothing you can do at the end to stop it.

If it happens, it happens.

So I just think it's a kind of trying to understand a world which is scary.

Scientists are a relatively easy group to kind of demonize for

treating everyone else as if they're not deserving of what we have, which is kind of not what we're trying to do.

What are you trying to do?

Personally, like the professional answer is we're trying to increase humanity's understanding of the world around us and to gain a better appreciation for our position and place in the universe.

The real answer is that we just like playing with things and we just want to play with bigger and bigger things.

Do you have any thoughts about

the personality types of people who

espouse these sorts of treatments?

Well, it depends on which level they are in

the grift.

And like those people who are like trying to pass off whatever Young Living has told them, I mostly view them as a mixture of like desperation in like to get the product to be successful or kind of a slight bit of will for ignorance or like just kind of general understandable ignorance on the topic.

I don't view them as any particular level of like insidious or nasty.

the people higher up i i have very little patience for i i think they're either completely delusional about what they are selling and therefore i don't trust them to have the ability to rationally think about what they're doing or they know it's a grift at which point they are actively promoting a thing which is highly likely to cause someone to die or get worse because they will actively avoid traditional treatment over their alternative treatment.

And if the health outcomes to the alternative treatment are there are no benefits, you are actively signing death warrants to people who choose to follow and believe what you believe or what you are trying to sell.

So I think people at the top are generally disgusting and are not worthy of any respect or consideration.

I know a lot of these, when you read their works like the radionics guys and the early essential oils guys, a lot of it was attached to like religious ideas or spiritualist ideas where they could then blame you for it not working if you didn't believe in it or you didn't take you didn't do it properly and I think the same applies to many of these new wellness ideas that if it's not what if it's not working the fault somehow lies with you not the machine and therefore

that's in itself quite insidious as a business model but when you start applying it to things like anxiety and depression that's an incredibly like nasty and evil way to approach trying to help someone it's by telling them that they are the reason why their condition isn't getting better when you're just selling them something that you know or either you know or you blindly believe it works, but you should know that it doesn't work.

It doesn't do anything.

So, I don't know.

I just find them as a whole quite a gross industry.

I swear to God, I did not coach him to say any of that.

Next time on the dream.

We're discussing carbohydrate and she's like, well, can I have carrots or pumpkin pumpkin instead of carbohydrate?

I was like, no, because that's not carbohydrate in the form that you need it.

Right.

You know, because for her, even though her weight is normal, even though her energy intake is normal, because her carb intake is so low, her periods have stopped.

Oh, my gosh.

The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere and Stitcher, written and reported by me and Dan Gallucci.

Editing by Peter Clowney and Tracy Samuelson.

Producing by Lyra Smith and Stephanie Kiriuki.

The Dream is executive produced by me, Dan Gallucci, Peter Clowney, and Chris Bannon.

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