Revisiting Women’s Work

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Speaker 32 Hello, dream listeners.

Speaker 32 This week, we're bringing you one of our favorite episodes from season one, where you get to hear more about the origins of multi-level marketing and more from my awesome aunt Amy.

Speaker 32 Please take a listen to the whole first season if you haven't yet.

Speaker 32 We'll be back January 6th with new episodes about wellness, but if you want to hear the next episode from this season, episode 3, right now, you can go to stitcherpremium.com and use the code DREAM for a free month of access to early releases.

Speaker 32 That's stitcherpremium.com, promo code DREAM. Thanks.

Speaker 32 All right, pulling into Owasso.

Speaker 32 Just past the Bonair, the Bone Air Motel.

Speaker 32 Oh boy.

Speaker 32 This is where you got to slow down. Start going 40 because it's a speed trap.

Speaker 32 Pulling into town.

Speaker 32 Open your maps app. Look up Flint, Michigan.
Now zoom out two ticks and look directly to the left of Flint.

Speaker 32 You'll see a bunch of faint boxes, township lines, to the west between Flint and the next noticeable town over, Owasso.

Speaker 32 This stretch of no man's land is where I'm from.

Speaker 32 Thought I saw a yard sale, but it was just junk in the yard.

Speaker 32 Alright, and now we're pulling up to, what is this called? Bentley Grill. Didn't used to be called that.
My uncle used to work there.

Speaker 32 Salem Lutheran School, Dollar General,

Speaker 32 the Library, Carl Mankey's Barbershop.

Speaker 32 You may have actually seen this part of the country in B-roll footage from Michael Moore films.

Speaker 32 You know, tiny rural homes on dirt roads with rusted out cars in the front yard and chicken coops and decrepit barns leaning over out back.

Speaker 32 Michael Moore is fine, I guess, but he's from here, so I've always been kind of suspicious of his ogling. Like, ooh, look at all the poor people in their natural habitat.
Yeah, we're poor.

Speaker 32 You know that, Michael. But we're a lot of other stuff, too.

Speaker 32 Technically, none of my extended family's actual homes appeared in those movies, but they might as well have. As far as I'm concerned, those shots are of us.

Speaker 32 My family's lived around here for a long time. My dad's mom, Ruth, comes from an old English family that's been around these parts for a few centuries.

Speaker 32 My dad's dad, his family, mostly came over from Prussia in the 1880s. That's what the ship manifests say, Prussia.

Speaker 32 As a preteen, I'd dig through the piles of junk in the garage on our family farm, and I'd pore over my great-great-grandfather's elementary school textbooks written in German.

Speaker 32 They were right next to some giant dusty glass jugs of dark brown homemade dandelion wine. I never tried it.

Speaker 32 My parents got married here too, right out of high school, and then left for Ann Arbor, but came back to Owasso when my dad finished school. He became a dentist.

Speaker 32 And when I was 10, we moved out to the family farm. There's Kerwood Castle, everybody.

Speaker 32 James Oliver Kerwood's writing space.

Speaker 32 It's got a couple turrets.

Speaker 32 Owasso is famous among Owassans for being the home of James Oliver Kerwood, author of The Bear, a 1916 book originally titled The Grizzly King, which was adapted into a mostly silent French film in 1988.

Speaker 32 There's an annual festival in his honor, the Kerwood Festival, which is a carnival plopped on Main Street, great beer tent and three-on-three basketball tournament.

Speaker 32 We're also the birthplace of Thomas E. Dewey of Dewey Defeats Truman Infamy.
He didn't beat Truman, but almost. We're the home of the real Polar Express, whatever that means.

Speaker 32 And Paul Paul Spaniola, the world's only six-time world pipe-smoking champion, was born in Owasso, Michigan.

Speaker 32 And growing up out here felt kind of like being in a time warp, partly because no one in my family throws anything away.

Speaker 32 So, yes, there are those old cars and rusty rototillers lying around the front yard, just like you see in a Michael Moore movie.

Speaker 32 along with hundred-year-old tools and books and toys and clothing and furniture, beds that I know more than a few of my grandparents died in.

Speaker 32 This was a town slow and sleepy enough that the half-hour trip to the mall in Flint felt like a big production. In the 1990s, we still had a canning cellar and a milkman.
In the 90s, the 1990s.

Speaker 32 No one bothered to lay cable lines for the few of us who lived out here.

Speaker 32 We burned our trash in a barrel because there was no garbage service, even though you could see the county landfill from our front yard.

Speaker 32 In place of cell phones, we had a pair of binoculars on the windowsill. We could watch what was happening next door at my grandma's house or across the field a mile away at some stranger's.

Speaker 32 Anyway, I'm not here to reminisce. I'm here because my homeland has another weird quality, one that I'm constantly reminded of through Facebook and at family get-togethers.

Speaker 32 This place is a hotbed for multi-level marketing. I'm back here to find out why.

Speaker 32 And more than that, I'm back because I want to walk into my friends' and loved ones' homes and ask them the question that pops into my head every single time they try to pitch me some new miracle essential oil or a makeup kit or, you know, tell me about the key to financial freedom.

Speaker 32 I'm here to ask them,

Speaker 32 what the fuck?

Speaker 32 And I'm terrified.

Speaker 32 I'm Jane Marie, and this is The Dream, Episode 2: Women's Work.

Speaker 32 I told you that over the course of this season, season, we'd be looking at MLMs from the bottom of the pyramid-shaped business model thing all the way up to the top, where a few people sit counting bags of money they're making off of people below them.

Speaker 32 It works for the top because the majority of their workforce is at the bottom, including members of my family. We've been trying to sell this stuff to each other and to everyone around us for decades.

Speaker 32 Take my aunt Amy. Over the years, Amy's sold Mary Kay, Malaluka, Pro Tandem, Herbalife, Ladara,

Speaker 38 Young Living Oils.

Speaker 32 I think that's it. I'm not sure it is, actually.

Speaker 32 And working on this project, I've realized most of my friends here have had experience with MLMs. One reason why is pretty obvious.
Owaso is poor.

Speaker 32 According to the latest census, 25% of people here live below the poverty line. There was once a thriving economy here a while ago, like early last century.

Speaker 32 Owaso and Carano were bedroom communities for the auto industry in Flint. In the 70s, when I was born, about half the people around here worked for the car industry.

Speaker 32 Even my grandparents, along with their soybean and winter wheat farm, had a trucking company that shipped parts for GM. But then, you know what happened.
The bottom fell out.

Speaker 32 In the 80s, as plants closed, people would scramble. I remember the summer of fifth grade, a big GM plant shut down and everyone was trying to get jobs at Saturn in Tennessee.

Speaker 32 When school started back up in the fall, it was like the rapture had happened. Just poof, gone.

Speaker 32 Today, Flint is half the size it was then, and almost half of those who remain live in poverty. If you live here, you live with risk.

Speaker 32 Of the bottom falling out, of racking up debt to keep your house or your family together. Sunoco gas station still going strong.
Great.

Speaker 32 And it's not just that Owaso is poor. It's that being a girl here, there's no clear path to a career or an escape.

Speaker 32 Guys, they at least grow up believing that their uncle or their dad can get them a job on the line or on the farm or at the tool and dye shop that supplies stuff to the guys on the line or on the farm.

Speaker 32 But being a girl here, the advice was number one, don't get pregnant. Not sure what you're going to do after you don't get pregnant, but whatever it is, it won't be an option if you're pregnant.

Speaker 32 Number two, okay, so you're pregnant.

Speaker 32 Definitely get married to anyone and make sure the grandmas are cool with watching the kids for free while you work on, number three, securing some sort of job or training that you can fall back on when you inevitably become a single mom, which is what happens if you get pregnant.

Speaker 32 I felt weird saying this, so I called around to other girlfriends of mine who also left Owasso, and they were like, yeah, that's what they told us.

Speaker 32 While the population of most communities around the country has naturally grown by 5% over the last 10 years, Owaso's has lost lost 5%.

Speaker 32 A lot of us leave.

Speaker 32 So that's really what's on my mind when I'm sitting in my apartment in California, flipping through Instagram, seeing a post from an Owasan friend begging all of us, her friends, her followers, to help her sell like 10 more pairs of banana leggings in an hour so she can earn some bonus.

Speaker 32 It makes me feel an embarrassing mix of pity and shame. But driving around here, I get it.
Of course she's hustling. I would be doing it too.
Around here, you've got to try something.

Speaker 32 And King's Corner Market used to be called Quick Check. They'd let me buy beer for my parents there when I was like 10.

Speaker 32 And now I see Amy's house.

Speaker 32 It's yellow.

Speaker 32 So, like I say, Amy is who I want to talk to first. My Aunt Amy is my dad's youngest sister, and she grew up next door to us on the farm with my grandparents.

Speaker 32 Amy has a lot of MLM experience, yes, but she's also been a successful hairdresser, an MMA fighter, a wife thrice over, and she's currently the high school swim coach and drama club director.

Speaker 32 They're making me nervous.

Speaker 38 Yeah, they make everybody nervous. They get so close to the board that the whole audience goes,

Speaker 32 And then I laugh.

Speaker 32 She was just six when I was born. The generations in my family are very, very short.
Babies having babies and whatnot. Amy and I were super close growing up.
I idolized her.

Speaker 32 She was my very favorite playmate. And she has memories of going to direct sales parties at our aunts and cousins' farmhouses back in the 70s and 80s.
Mostly Avon, but there were others thrown in.

Speaker 38 I remember for the jewelry parties, I remember it still smelling like an Avon. type of situation where they all were wearing Avon.

Speaker 38 And then the heavy eyeshadow and like the heavy liner and that sort of thing. And then the hairspray.

Speaker 38 You could always smell the hairspray because it was always some form of like the Aquanette or something, some form of an inexpensive hairspray and tons of it.

Speaker 32 Sarah Coventry was another big direct sales company with our extended family.

Speaker 32 Sarah Coventry was a jewelry brand, one of those party-based ones where a bunch of women get together in a house and look at catalogs, kind of like a Tupperware party.

Speaker 38 They would have just a few pieces of jewelry that were still, you know, in their boxes, and they would pass them around basically.

Speaker 38 I think probably most of them didn't have enough money to really invest in like the display part of it.

Speaker 32 And there was always some food, usually a lot of jell-o-I remember the jell-o a lot.

Speaker 38 And then like those little roll-up hors d'oeuvres with the cream cheese and the meat and the.

Speaker 38 What I remember too is that like our house was conservative as far as decorating was concerned. And these other ladies ladies lived in houses that were gilded

Speaker 38 and they have a lot of mirrors and a lot of the sculpted shag carpet in very deep and odd colors.

Speaker 32 I remember faux flowers kind of around the room, a lot of faux ivy, things like that.

Speaker 38 Yes,

Speaker 38 a lot of the faux flowers, a lot of

Speaker 38 black velvet paintings. Yes, black velvet paintings of horses.
No clowns, though.

Speaker 32 Actually, no, there was a clown. There was a clown.
out of my babe's house.

Speaker 38 Yes, it was at Aunt Babe's house and she had red carpet.

Speaker 32 I'd forgotten some of this. Yes, people join MLMs out of desperation to try to restart their lives, but also they join to have fun.

Speaker 32 These were wonderful gatherings, big to-dos in a town where there wasn't much to do. And everyone looked forward to getting together.

Speaker 38 I remember one time they were all together at one of these parties, and the one lady comes in and because she was the one that was there to sell stuff

Speaker 38 she had gone to someone's house to have a party but she was standing at the front door and ringing the doorbell

Speaker 38 and they used to wear nylons inside their pants like their polyester pants and I was at the time it didn't make sense to me that you would wear a pair of control top pantyhose underneath your polyester pants.

Speaker 38 I thought that that not only does it sound weird when you walk, but it would feel really awful, you know?

Speaker 36 Like spanks, you mean?

Speaker 38 Uh-huh.

Speaker 38 So I think that that's what these ladies did: use the control top panties or control top pantyhose as like spanks.

Speaker 38 So her story was that she was standing at someone's house, middle of the day, or whatever, and she was ringing the doorbell.

Speaker 38 And so she realized that there was a pair of pantyhose stuck inside her pants between her pantyhose and the pants.

Speaker 38 She bent down and took a hold of the pantyhose toe and then started pulling it out like a magician.

Speaker 32 Wee!

Speaker 38 Kind of, you know. And so when the person answered the door, she's standing there with these pantyhose in her hands and her pant leg halfway up, and she's still pulling pantyhose out of her pants.

Speaker 38 And they had all found this so hilarious that they were all laughing so hard they were crying.

Speaker 38 And I just remember sitting there and watching all these women in this state of like hysteria because of the story and like how warm that was.

Speaker 38 Like, that was one of the things that was really cool about those parties: they were always really warm and really happy.

Speaker 38 And then I've never experienced that again with any of the parties that I hosted or anything like that. They just were that group.

Speaker 38 And that's one thing that, like, that makes me a little bit sad because they, they're like almost all of them are dead at this point. But,

Speaker 38 but that one, it makes me want to cry even. They were so sweet and so fun.

Speaker 32 We kids, we loved these women. Loved the excuse to hang out and laugh, as opposed to sitting in a basement shucking black walnuts, which is something else women around here gathered together for.

Speaker 32 My great-grandma Maxine, Amy's grandma, started selling Avon in the 50s, and you could always rely on Grandma Max for some sort of direct sales product in your stocking and leftover samples she'd leave for the kids, which piled up in a drawer over generations.

Speaker 32 They've only recently run out after Amy's own daughters used up the dregs.

Speaker 38 I always wanted to play makeup. So when you were born, you were like this doll that I had to play with and you were always willing.

Speaker 38 So when we would play makeup, it was like the makeup that we got from grandma. Most of the time it was just the little teeny tiny lipsticks.

Speaker 38 And so that made it more real because our hands were little and our faces were little. So it felt like we were using like big things.
They felt good and they smelled that certain smell.

Speaker 38 And I'm not sure if it was because they were getting old or if they all smelled that way.

Speaker 38 And I remember we always ended up with the ones that were kind of the tan or beige color being left over because we didn't want those.

Speaker 32 We wanted red lips.

Speaker 38 Anyway, they made everything seem real.

Speaker 32 But we actually took this one step further. We weren't just makeup artists.
We were businesswomen. I remember playing like store too because we could use the catalogs and the

Speaker 32 order sheets and stuff and like setting up a desk with the phone yep yep and we were avon ladies yep

Speaker 38 and we would call and make sure that everybody was you know good on their orders

Speaker 32 amy's mom my grandma ruth was not really into the makeup and jewelry scene grandma ruth is in a word frugal some might say miserly others might say she's a hoarder I say she's all three.

Speaker 32 One direct sales company in particular was completely blacklisted in Ruth's house.

Speaker 38 We didn't do Tupperware parties. We didn't go to Tupperware parties.
We didn't purchase Tupperware.

Speaker 38 We didn't have any Tupperware at the house. She used reused old containers.
So that was Tupperware was a waste of time to her and money.

Speaker 32 Because

Speaker 32 storage containers are free because all your food comes in a storage container already.

Speaker 38 And she could just wash it and reuse it because she still does that with like Ziploc bags.

Speaker 39 And tin foil.

Speaker 38 And tid foil.

Speaker 32 Yep. So she's not wrong.

Speaker 38 No, she's not. So and she's very efficient and has a lot of money I think to show for it because of those behaviors her whole life.
So

Speaker 38 she was right about all those things.

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Speaker 32 Can I take my shoes off?

Speaker 32 Okay.

Speaker 35 Don't get up.

Speaker 32 I'm with a load of fanbarship. Let's go up to the canvas.

Speaker 32 I'm visiting my grandma Ruth to ask her about her mom's time as an Avon lady.

Speaker 32 Ruth doesn't really wear makeup or get gussied up for anything other than church, so it's always been funny to me that her mom was so into it.

Speaker 32 There are two houses on the property, a quarter mile apart, along with a couple of barns. Both properties are quite modest.

Speaker 32 The one we're in, my Grandma Ruth and Grandpa Bill, who now sits in the living room with dementia watching Bob Ross, they built this house as teenagers when they first started their family.

Speaker 32 They put the basement in first and lived in it with their growing brood, which would eventually number six kids while they finished the upstairs.

Speaker 32 Can I have your name?

Speaker 36 Ruth Golenbiski, thank you.

Speaker 32 Can you just tell me a little bit about yourself? I know a lot about you because you're my grandma.

Speaker 36 I live in Corona, Michigan. I've been mostly a stay-at-home wife, although there was a stint when I did some truck driving.

Speaker 36 And I'm 81 years old and I enjoy everything and I love every morning.

Speaker 32 Even for Ruth, direct sales were a part of daily life for as long as she can remember. And she says it was for one reason, the same one MLMs count on to power their sales.

Speaker 32 She'd rather buy from people she knows.

Speaker 36 I'm sure that when you go to the grocery store and you stand and you read about something,

Speaker 36 that you don't see the value that you can be introduced to by a salesperson.

Speaker 36 But I do know you can introduce yourself to products that do work.

Speaker 36 But I think that this other way is better because you have someone that educates you.

Speaker 36 And there are things you miss when you're just reading it.

Speaker 32 Thing is, my grandma Ruth never signed up to sell these things. Yeah, she didn't.
But she has signed up for the discount.

Speaker 32 She's careful and sentimental.

Speaker 36 And one of the companies that I remember when I was young was the Jewel Tea Company.

Speaker 36 And I remember that when I was a child, when they used to come to my grandmother's house, and they were a good company.

Speaker 36 I do have some pieces of

Speaker 36 haul dishware that came from them that I remember.

Speaker 32 So that was like door-to-door kind of sales kind of thing. Absolutely.

Speaker 36 And the gentleman that I remember selling it became a family friend. And so that made it kind of precious.

Speaker 32 This was 75 years ago, all this sitting around with the jewel tea guy. But I've eaten off those exact plates.

Speaker 32 And the reason my grandma still has those plates is because she learned the value of a dollar really early on.

Speaker 36 I went to work when I was nine years old the first time. I went to work at a neighbor lady's house.
She was crippled up with arthritis. She couldn't comb her own hair.

Speaker 36 And there were many, many things that I did for that lady that she just couldn't do for herself. And though I was very young,

Speaker 36 I could help her with her needs. I made a quarter, I think, an hour for the lady that I worked for.

Speaker 36 And

Speaker 36 then from there, I went to work with another lady at another lady's house.

Speaker 36 And when when I was 10 years old, I had gotten to the point where I was out picking strawberries in a patch from 8 in the morning, one hour off for noon, and 5 o'clock in the afternoon.

Speaker 36 If I had to pick strawberries that day, that's how the day went. So when you're poor like that, you learn to scrape money off the walls.

Speaker 36 And you know what's there if you're looking.

Speaker 36 When I was a child, I didn't think I was suffering, but when you wear cardboard in your shoes because you got holes in the bottom to school, and your mother's cut off nylons for socks.

Speaker 36 And on Christmas, you have hamburgers, but you're still happy. Your stomach's full, and you're happy.

Speaker 36 I always told myself that I could do better with my money than some other people could without naming anyone.

Speaker 36 My parents had a difficult time.

Speaker 36 And I always felt like I could do better better with my money, you know, as I got older.

Speaker 32 And she did. Ruth and my grandpa scrimped and saved, never spent a dollar they didn't actually possess.
Rumor has it, they're rich now. But you can't tell looking at them, or the house, or the yard.

Speaker 32 Ruth's parents, my great-grandma Maxine and her husband Leo, did have a difficult time.

Speaker 32 And I hope my grandma forgives me and her youngest daughter for elaborating here, but this part of the story is crucial in understanding why Avon entered our lives in the first place.

Speaker 32 Here's Amy talking about my great-grandma Maxine.

Speaker 38 When she was really small, she had quite a bit of money, and that's when she would wear the fur coats to school and whatnot.

Speaker 32 This is a common refrain when anyone in my family speaks of great grandma Maxine. You know, Maxine wore fur coats to elementary school.
She wore fur coats to school.

Speaker 32 Do you know when she was little, she got to wear fur coats to school? If you don't know what to do with that information, Neither did I as a little kid.

Speaker 32 Should I offer her Royal Highness more deference? Should I pity her that everyone around her thinks it's so crazy that she had a fur coat?

Speaker 32 These days, I think, yeah, I owed her both of those. So, okay, great-grandma Maxine.

Speaker 32 Apparently, her father was a successful veterinarian who doted on her when she was a very little girl, but then he left, abandoned the family. And a few years later, things got worse.

Speaker 38 She met

Speaker 38 Grandpa Leo.

Speaker 38 They got together when she was 14.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 38 And so he was like 21.

Speaker 38 Yeah.

Speaker 38 And so he and she had their first baby when she was 15, had their second baby when she was 16,

Speaker 38 and then had the third baby when she was 18, and were done having kids when she was 21. And so

Speaker 38 she literally was a child with children, and

Speaker 38 she was incredibly abused.

Speaker 38 And they had no money. And Grandpa Leo spent it all on who knows what.
I have a feeling he spent most of it on beer and

Speaker 38 just hanging out with his buddies.

Speaker 38 So that's the kind of life that Maxine had.

Speaker 32 Do you think that there was anything in grandma becoming an Avon lady that was like her chance to to kind of like be fancy again?

Speaker 36 That's an interesting question. My mother was a pianist and she was good and she taught our children and Jane and it was

Speaker 36 the poor girl never even had a piano. Now my heart aches because my mother never had a piano in her home.

Speaker 36 And she was such a wonderful pianist and it's just something that was gone out of her life. So yes, I think that selling Avon or eggs would have been an outlet.

Speaker 36 So I'm grateful that she had that opportunity. It may look like a small opportunity to some people, but for her, it was a way for her to use her graciousness and be able to communicate that.

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Speaker 32 It's that time of year again. The holidays are coming fast.
And if your kids are anything like mine, that wish list is getting pretty long. Let's be honest.

Speaker 32 Some of the things on that list make us stop and think, like a smartphone. Do they actually need all that stuff to stare at? Well, no, they don't.

Speaker 36 Just get them a Gab.

Speaker 32 I got one for my kid. It has tracking, which I only look at every once in a while because I don't like to spy on her.
It has a phone number, very helpful.

Speaker 32 And it has a list of people you can text that I approve. Plus, I can spy on the text, which I don't do.
Haven't had to yet.

Speaker 32 But if something weird comes in on one of those texts, I do get a notification. And then I look and it's just some dumb YouTube makeup video that...
The Gab phone doesn't let you watch.

Speaker 32 So win, win, win, win, win, win. I love it.
Gab offers phones and watches made just for kids. No internet, no social media, and just the right features for their age.

Speaker 32 Kids want phones to feel independent and connected, and as parents, we want to know they're safe. With Gab, you can have both and protect them from the scary stuff.

Speaker 32 With Gab's Tech and Steps approach, kids get the right tech at the right time.

Speaker 32 From watches with GPS tracking for the youngest explorers to the perfect first phone with no internet or social media to the teen phones with parent-approved apps.

Speaker 32 So get ready for a Christmas morning they'll never forget, the one where they get their first phone. And really, it's a gift for you too, because these kids save phones will give you peace of mind.

Speaker 32 Visit gab.com slash the dream and use code the dream for a special holiday offer. That's gabb.com/slash the dream.
Gab, tuck in steps. Independence for them, peace of mind for you.

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Speaker 9 Medicate's 30% off Black Friday sale is happening now through Tuesday, December 2nd.

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Speaker 32 my great-grandmother was poor overwhelmed and life had decidedly not kept her in the state of fur-coated happiness she'd been born into but i think she got a kind of independence through direct sales through avon in particular and it turns out that mix of entrepreneurship and escape that appealed to thousands of women a whole wave of women just like maxine who made the industry what it is today

Speaker 32 you can hear how personal this all is for me. So I wanted some perspective outside my family.
Someone to answer a few basic questions about a town like mine. Questions like, why?

Speaker 32 Why us?

Speaker 7 Why here?

Speaker 41 My name is Tracy Deutsch, and I'm a professor of history at the University of Minnesota.

Speaker 32 Tracy studies gender and capitalism, and she says this whole direct sales thing, especially women in direct sales, was the result of a few things.

Speaker 32 One, in the late 19th century, door-to-door salesmen had a bad rap.

Speaker 41 So paddlers and direct salespeople had a really terrible reputation in the late 19th century. They had,

Speaker 41 in some cases, a well-earned reputation as being swindlers and untrustworthy.

Speaker 32 They were itinerant. If you wanted to complain or return something, good luck finding them.
They were mostly male, and some might have even been Jewish.

Speaker 32 Anti-Semitism, remember, was very hip at the time. So towns started making laws restricting door-to-door sales.

Speaker 32 At the same time, some some companies that couldn't break into the mainstream marketplace, in particular Black Beauty Products, found that women selling directly to other women in their homes was a way to get around both restrictive markets and inviting strange men into your house.

Speaker 41 I think that it was a way to bypass the politics of distribution that made it difficult to find products for people who were marginalized.

Speaker 41 So there weren't, you know, large department stores didn't carry skincare products or cosmetics for black women, but they could be sold through social networks.

Speaker 32 Annie Turnbow-Malone and her protege, Madam C.J. Walker, both set up huge networks of female distributors to sell black hair care at the turn of the last century, and both of them became millionaires.

Speaker 32 Their innovation, their networking, helped develop a sales strategy that would later be emulated by countless companies, including Avon.

Speaker 41 Avon actually was founded in 1886. Wow.
And they, yeah, I know. And they developed this system of recruiting women to sell their products very early on.
So by 1902, they had like 10,000 reps.

Speaker 32 Avon was founded by a former door-to-door salesman, David H. McConnell.
He started out selling books.

Speaker 32 And this might sound a little creepy, it did to me, but at some point, David began concocting perfumes in his home. and would offer tiny bottles as a free gift to women who opened the door.
Hmm.

Speaker 32 Anyway, the perfume perfume took off and eventually he dropped the books and put those women to work.

Speaker 41 It's really impossible to separate questions of gender from questions of business strategy, right? They weren't selling products.

Speaker 41 They were selling women's products and they weren't just using salespeople. They were using women.

Speaker 41 So every aspect of a lot of cosmetics firms, but especially places like Avon, was mindful of the gender politics of the time period.

Speaker 41 One reason that Avon turned to women was because they were selling perfume, but also because they wanted to sell perfume in women's homes.

Speaker 41 Having women come into other women's homes was more within gender conventions than having strange men come into your house, which could raise

Speaker 41 questions about propriety.

Speaker 41 It was also the case that

Speaker 41 as is often the case, they expected that they would have to pay women less.

Speaker 41 Right?

Speaker 41 Being a traveling salesman was a career path for men in a way that women weren't expected to have careers that took them outside their areas of residence.

Speaker 32 Yeah.

Speaker 32 I suppose, yes, you could say, well, women can't travel, right? They have to stay home. So then they're necessarily valued less because they don't have the mobility.

Speaker 41 Well, it cuts both ways, right? On the one hand, women have to stay at home and so they're valued less. On the other hand, women are valued less, so they have to stay at home.
They don't have, right?

Speaker 41 They don't have the option.

Speaker 41 The assumptions that women are responsible for child care and managing households also keeps them tied to one place.

Speaker 32 So this was back in the 20s and 30s when everyone had to be scrappy, you know, find a way to make ends meet.

Speaker 41 Unmarried women had often engaged in some kinds of wage-earning work, or they had supported their families through unpaid work, like caring for other children or elderly grandparents or parents or stuff like that.

Speaker 41 Married women typically had moved in and out of the workforce as household economies demanded it, when somebody was laid off for whatever reason, right?

Speaker 41 Or they worked in what is, and this is really useful to understand,

Speaker 41 what's called the informal economy, which are jobs that are not regulated, often buying and selling products that are not regulated.

Speaker 32 What do you mean, like bake sales or?

Speaker 41 Yeah, I do mean bake sales. Oh, okay.

Speaker 41 Things like making food and selling it out of your house to neighbors who come by.

Speaker 41 It also is included what we would think of as homework. So women who finished fabrics or textile or clothing in their homes and then brought it back to a central site.

Speaker 41 So it's a term for economic activities that are actually often quite important, generate a lot of money for the economy, but aren't formalized in the sense that it's regular and regulated.

Speaker 32 Right.

Speaker 41 So and women had often engaged in that kind of money making

Speaker 41 Married women had begun to participate in what you might think of as like the formal economy in larger numbers than ever before during World War II.

Speaker 41 And they often wanted to keep doing that after the war because the money was more stable for all kinds of reasons, right, that you can imagine.

Speaker 41 But those jobs were less available to them in some ways.

Speaker 32 Well, because the guys were back.

Speaker 41 Because the guys were back, and because

Speaker 41 the rigors of wartime no longer could excuse their employment.

Speaker 32 Right.

Speaker 41 So, one reason that they worked for companies like Avon

Speaker 41 was that they had been working,

Speaker 41 right?

Speaker 41 This was a job that they could get

Speaker 41 in the 1950s, And it was a job that often was understood to be one that could accommodate child care and husband care and housework and things like that.

Speaker 32 And it also

Speaker 41 furthered the ideology of domesticity because of the products that were being sold.

Speaker 32 Were people making money?

Speaker 32 The women?

Speaker 41 So interestingly,

Speaker 41 That's a really hard question to answer.

Speaker 41 Most of these firms kept and keep very tight control of data about how much money people made doing this. All the data that we have suggests that there's very little money that's made.

Speaker 41 What does happen at these companies, Tupperware jump-started this process of rewarding people socially for their successes. So what they get is a lot of affirmation.
They feel appreciated.

Speaker 41 And that, I think, should not be missed in understanding the appeal of these firms. That part of what they reward

Speaker 41 is

Speaker 41 the affective emotional labor and the social connections that many women maintain no matter what.

Speaker 32 My great grandma was poor, but she didn't need much in terms of actual cash. She died in the same shack she'd raised her kids in.
and lived off social security and the kindness of her children.

Speaker 32 The thing that was most lacking in her life was love and self-esteem and adoration and confidence. And some of that stuff comes at a high price no matter how you go about getting it.

Speaker 32 Think about the cost of a beauty pageant or getting an Ivy League education or your gym membership.

Speaker 32 In a way, Maxine was investing in her quality of life, even if the checks didn't cover her new siding or a better wheelchair.

Speaker 41 That's a common refrain among people

Speaker 41 who did MLMs in the 1950s and 60s and 70s was that they felt special. They had access to this world that rewarded them.

Speaker 41 Not every part of people's experiences in these companies is bad.

Speaker 41 They got social rewards. They often felt like they got, like your grandmother, right? That they got to participate in social interactions that were really rewarding to them.

Speaker 32 Right.

Speaker 41 That made them feel good, that got them out of their houses and justified time at a party party or spending it with other people.

Speaker 41 And we miss the significance of what these organizations are doing

Speaker 41 if we only look at them in financial terms.

Speaker 41 They did historically provide things that conventional formal economy does not provide, and it's a real problem.

Speaker 41 The rigidity of working hours, the lack of understanding about women's responsibilities at home, the need for social engagement and social relations to be valued.

Speaker 41 That's all something that these jobs provided.

Speaker 43 So anyways, I began to develop my team and we did things together. I had team meetings.
Everything that I did was for my girls.

Speaker 43 I mean, they were my heart. My team was my heart.
And I gave my all.

Speaker 44 Now it's about the culture, the community, the sisterhood that I'm experiencing, and then being able

Speaker 44 be

Speaker 44 something besides a wife and a mother. Now I'm contributing to the household, it's building my self-esteem,

Speaker 44 it's making me feel

Speaker 32 whole as a person.

Speaker 35 I really feel

Speaker 32 lucky, or as they say here in the South, blessed, that this came along because I really feel like everybody is

Speaker 43 rooting for you.

Speaker 42 And I doubted myself for a long time.

Speaker 42 I doubted myself for a very long time.

Speaker 42 But what I can tell you,

Speaker 42 I have met some of the most incredible women.

Speaker 42 And I've had so many people tell me,

Speaker 42 you live in a fantasy world, in your little makeup world.

Speaker 42 And I'm telling you, this has been my happy place.

Speaker 42 And this has been the place.

Speaker 32 I'm sorry.

Speaker 42 This has been the place that has gotten me through so many rough points of my life in the past three years.

Speaker 42 I owe my success

Speaker 42 to you,

Speaker 39 my team,

Speaker 39 the people that have believed in me, and the people that have made me start believing in myself.

Speaker 32 The Dream is a production of Little Everywhere in Stitcher. This episode was written and reported by me, Jane Marie, Dan Gallucci, and Mackenzie Kassab.

Speaker 32 It was produced by Lyra Smith and Claire Rawlinson with help from Stephanie Karauki and Tracy Samuelson. Our editor is Peter Clowney.

Speaker 32 This episode was executive produced by Laura Mayer, Chris Bannon, Dan Gallucci, and me. We appreciate you listening, subscribing, and reviewing wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 32 And if you have a wellness experience, good or bad, that you'd like to share on our show, please call 715-600-0326. That's 715-600-0326 and leave us a voicemail.

Speaker 32 You may be featured on the program later this season.

Speaker 2 Rediscover skin that looks as vibrant as you feel.

Speaker 3 Medicate is a British clinical skincare brand trusted by dermatologists for visible, age-defying results without compromise.

Speaker 7 And right now is the best time of the year to try it.

Speaker 8 Medicate's 30% off during their Black Friday sale.

Speaker 10 If you've been curious about retinol, start with Medicaid's Crystal Retinol Night Serum.

Speaker 16 It's award-winning, ultra-gentle, and proven to work 11 times faster than traditional retinol, smoothing wrinkles, brightening dark spots, and firming skin without irritation.

Speaker 19 Or try the fan-favorite liquid peptide serum, clinically proven to smooth fine lines in just seven days.

Speaker 18 And if you want that lifted, deeply hydrated feel, Medicate's newest innovation, Advanced Pro Collagen Plus Peptide Cream, delivers visibly rejuvenated skin while reducing wrinkles.

Speaker 25 This is the moment to elevate your routine.

Speaker 9 Medicate's 30% off Black Friday sale is happening now through Tuesday, December 2nd.

Speaker 28 Visit medicate.us.

Speaker 30 That's M-E-D-I-K-8.us and save 30% on age-defying skincare.

Speaker 35 Hey guys, it's Paige from Giggly Squad. And if you're anything like me, holiday shopping has officially started.
And you know where I'm going? Ulta Beauty.

Speaker 35 They have the cutest gift sets right now like the Sol de Janeiro, Shea Rosa, and Cheer Perfume Mist Trio. It smells so good.
I've been misting it everywhere, On me, on the street, on my pillow.

Speaker 35 It's a whole vibe. I'm obsessed with the Tarte Kindness Cafe collector set.
It's packed with everyday makeup must-haves, and it's honestly too cute to wrap.

Speaker 35 And if you need a cozy little self-care moment, the Moroccan Oil Hand Care Essentials kit is luxe, hydrating, and smells delicious. Don't worry if you can't decide right now.

Speaker 35 An Ulta Beauty gift card is the perfect gift for everyone. So whether you're gifting your bestie or yourself, make the season yours and head to Ulta Beauty today.
Ulta Beauty, gifting happens here.

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Speaker 32 hey dream listeners it's finally here the dream plus where you can get every single episode of our show with no ads it's five dollars a month it's the only tier no commercials plus bonus content this helps keep us independent and your contribution will help change the way every listener hears the dream.

Speaker 32 We'll be able to take out the ads that we don't even know are getting put into this show, which is annoying to both you and us. We're also going to have an amazing discussion board.

Speaker 32 The interface has it cataloged under AMA, Ask Me Anything. But I don't love rules.

Speaker 32 So what I did is started a bunch of threads like ask Dan and I questions, general chit chat, just to make friends and stuff.

Speaker 32 And every time I've been in charge of a discussion board, I've made a tab called Women Be Shopping. And it's there.
And we're just going to talk about what we bought. It'll be fun.

Speaker 32 That's the dream.superca.com. Supercast.
Please, please go subscribe. It's five bucks.
It's less than a latte if you live in Los Angeles. See you there.