Ep.#442 - Joker: Folie à Deux

Hi, floppers.

Before we start this episode, I just wanted to remind you we are in the middle of Flop TV Season 2.

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This time, it's personal.

On this episode, we discuss Joker Folliard.

Oh man, we got a Pebby La P situation going on over here.

Dan, stop assaulting that cat.

Hey, everyone, and welcome to the Flop House.

I'm Dan McCoy.

I'm that Stuart Wellington.

Oh, that one.

I'm Elliot Kalen, and I don't want to start things off on a negative note, but on this all-positive podcast.

Got your performance reviews on this all-positive podcast.

We're going to say good things about things.

I wanted to apologize if the recording audio quality on my side of things is not at its tippy top.

I am not at my home right now.

We're recording this during the time of the Los Angeles fires of early 2025 because 2025 just couldn't wait to get the bad stuff out right off the bat.

Just wanted to do it early.

And I'm okay.

My family and I, we left the city because our house was a little bit too close to where we were comfortable with being when it comes to being close to fire.

But

luckily for us, we've been very lucky and it seems like our house is okay and we'll be returning to it.

But I wanted to say you'll be hearing this a week later, but a lot of people have been devastated by what happened, both emotionally and also in terms of losing their homes.

And so I wanted to encourage anyone listening to, even though this was a week ago and hopefully by the time you're listening to this, those fires will be put out, please do, if you can, donate to any one of the number of excellent causes that are available to help people.

There's so many of them that honestly, I'm not sure which is the one that I want to point people to specifically.

The one that comes up a lot is the California Fire Foundation,

but there's a number of other good ones.

If you Google, how can I help Los Angeles Fire?

There'll be a lot of good options for you.

But two personal ones that I wanted to draw attention to, if that's okay with Dan and Stewart, these are not organizations or people that paid for ad

spots.

And I know that Dan is really kind of like a stickler about this issue.

He makes me pay when I promote my own stuff.

Is there's two GoFundMes that are especially close to me.

One is for a family named the Dennisons.

Their son is one of my younger son's best friends.

Their house was unfortunately completely destroyed.

They lost almost everything that they own.

And there's an aid fund just for helping them restock as they are finding a place to live in the meantime.

If you go to GoFundMe and you search for aid for Dennison Families Fire Loss, that's d-e-n-i-s-o-n aid for denison families fire loss please if you feel um an interest in donating to help them uh or or in addition to something that's a bigger issue is that the the synagogue where my that same younger son that he's got he's just a bad news kid who has a who is cursed uh the synagogue where he went to preschool and which is kind of our Jewish community in the area, PJTC, the Pasadena Jewish Templing Center, was completely burned to the ground.

And it was very traumatic for us seeing the pictures of this place that we used to take him every single day and that we still go to for events just destroyed.

And so if you go on GoFundMe and you go to Help PJTC rebuild after the Eaton Fire, again, search for Help P as in Paul or Pasadena, JTC rebuild after the Eaton Fire.

Any amount that you can help in getting them off the ground would be fantastic.

They've been there for about a century as a synagogue and Jewish center, center, and that building just needs to be rebuilt because they, you know, it was destroyed in the fire.

And so those are two that would mean a lot to me if any listeners wanted to help with them.

But otherwise, if you would rather help in the broader sense with one of the larger organizations, please do so.

Wherever you want to donate your money or goods, if the place are accepting goods, as a Southern Californian, I would greatly appreciate it.

And as a friend of the Denisons and as a kind of unofficial member, we never fully joined the synagogue, but we do buy tickets to the High Holy Days sometimes.

As someone who spends a lot of time around PJTC and is very close to a lot of the people who are members there, those are two GoFundMes that I would really appreciate it if people donated to.

So thank you very much.

I'm completely safe, and so don't worry about me.

And if you want to mail me like an envelope full of 20s,

I'll donate it to you.

And I'm worried about you every day, Elliot.

Thanks.

I'll just skim a little off the top and then I'll donate the rest.

Yeah.

Well, we're very glad for that.

Obviously, we're very glad for that.

But also, you know, as you say, this will come out

later, a week later than we're recording it.

God willing, the news will still be the same then.

But for all of those who have been...

The news that LA will be on fire?

No, no, no.

No, we want the fire to be on fire.

We don't want that to be.

No.

The news I'm about to say, God willing will still be the same, that

the,

as far as I know, all of the Max Fun workers and hosts in the area are safe and

well.

And we hope that that continues, certainly.

But obviously, many, many, many people have been impacted terribly by this.

So I'm glad that you started off

with this plea.

Thank you.

Yeah, it'll be, hopefully by the time you listen to this, those fires will be out and people will be safe.

But a lot of people are going to need help getting their lives back on track, back together,

and especially people in the area of altadena which is very close to where i live and where a lot of the people we know live and so uh yeah if you can help out to get those to help with those people that'd be wonderful so without further ado let's start talking about something positive and fun

joker folly ado a lot with a name like that yeah with a name like that that's a comedy right and it's directed by famed comedy comedy director

you got the hangover director it's got that the classic clown prince of crime the joker it's got the word folly in the title and just like steven Stonheim's funniest play, Follies.

So you know it's going to be a laugh L-A-F-F riot, right, guys?

That it is.

That it is.

Now, have you guys seen the first Joker movie?

From now on, we will refer to it as Joker 1.

Didn't we cover Joker on the podcast or did we?

No, we did not.

We did not cook it.

Oh, we did.

Oh, we should have.

Because I did not like it.

Yeah, I did.

No.

I mean, I think I didn't like it, but I don't know if I would have had fun talking about why I didn't like it.

And you know what?

We can talk about it here yeah it was it was a case in which I did not like the movie I did not hate it as much as the people who really hate it do because I think that like at least I saw that there was skill in the making of it even if I didn't particularly like what it was doing and

you know so much of it was stolen from other movies.

I mean,

it feels in some ways like the first AI movie where it was like, computer, put the Joker in taxi driver, Joker,

put the joker in king of comedy and the computer was like beep boop but you're right it is the first but it was a it was a largely panned and uh unsuccessful wait all these oscars what one best actor that's why there are now uh i believe the same number of asian women have won best have won acting awards as people who played the joker which is two

um but the uh was done it was what made a billion dollars it was a huge hit i mean i didn't like it i felt like it was production standpoint acting standpoint excellently done.

And I thought it was all towards a goal that I did not appreciate and I did not enjoy or connect with.

But clearly, it connected with a lot of people.

It made a billion dollars.

And I don't know.

And that can't all just be because the music and the costumes and everything were fantastic.

But Elliot, it connected with people in a way that Todd Phillips did not appreciate.

And thus, Joker 2 enters the picture.

This is the curious thing.

I wonder if, because everyone's like, Joker 2 is taking the piss out of the fans of Joker.

And I wonder if that is the deliberate case where if he is just so not aware aware of what people connected to in the first movie.

I don't know.

I mean, I know that he, I forget like the punk guy that he like started out with a documentary about, but like, I think Todd Phillips has this part of him that wants to be like mean, that does not want people to connect with these things.

But also, I think specifically, I do get the feeling that he has a B in his bonnet about how like the real Joker fans connected in a way that he's like, no, no, you're not supposed to, like,

want this.

You know, who that all, you know, who also had that experience?

Fucking Martin Scorsese when he made taxi driver.

And he would see it in theaters and people would applaud when Travis Bick would shoot people.

Like, even, even in his reaction to the thing that happened and being upset about it,

he is following in the footsteps of somebody else.

But, but, you're, so he, I guess, with this one, he decided he was like, I'm not doing a Martin Scorsese movie, except maybe it's New York, New York.

Actually, you know what?

He is stealing from Martin Scorsese a little bit.

He's like, I'm going to do my Bob Fosse movie now.

I'm going to take from all that that jazz.

I'm going to take from Chicago.

And the whole time I was watching it, I was like, oh, this is like Penny's from Heaven, which is not Bob Fosse, but with the Joker in it, you know.

But guys, Stu and the Joker, let's fucking talk about this shit, dude.

Let's talk about it.

Stuart, you loved the first movie, right?

You saw it, you saw the pick, right?

I did not care for the first movie.

It was not a Stu's pick.

I felt like

that's a coveted sticker.

Yeah, whatever happened in that segment on the show.

Stu's picks, yeah.

I felt like the message of the first movie was like, life sucks, doesn't it?

Isn't life shitty?

Aren't people shitty?

Joker.

And I was like, well, I don't need a movie to tell me this, you know, anyway.

Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, there's elements of that.

So Joker, Folly, Ado, which what means madness of two or something?

Yeah, it's kind of like

making a sequel.

Oh, maybe.

I like that.

In the medical sense, it refers to like a shared delusion, like a delusion that sort of reinforces between two people.

And also, I feel like Heavenly Creatures, let's say.

They're going for like an amorphous.

What a fucking movie, Heavenly Creatures is.

Oh, what a great movie.

And also, like, an amorphous, you know, like a crazy love.

Because I assume they're trying to have like two of hearts, two hearts that beat us, one, two of hearts, I need you, I need you.

That's what I got from it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Okay, so the movie opens with a Chuck Jones-esque

is more tech savory than Bob Clampet-esque.

I was waiting for Elliot to come in.

Yeah,

that's why I gave you guys space.

I don't know.

We've been working together for a while now.

Yeah, yeah, thank you.

I'm glad you left it.

Okay, so there's a little feature.

I heard Chuck Jones was on my mind because I just re-watched Gremlins and he makes a cameo appearance in it.

So the movie begins with a cartoon.

And the cartoon is kind of a recap of the climax of the first Joker film, but it has a slight spin on it where Joker is bedeviled and tormented by a shadow version of himself, which seems to be

committing crimes or whatnot.

And then that shadow self basically frames Joker for, because Joker just has a song in his heart and it frames Joker and

he gets beaten up by the boys.

He just wants to have a laugh, you know?

I got to say, this was a strong opening to me.

Yes.

When this started, I was like, oh, maybe this will be good.

Like the animation is beautiful.

The way it's put together is really

good.

And it feels like, oh, they're doing, it's not just, I mean, they're still taking a style that someone else pioneered, but it was like, oh, this wasn't what I expected at all from the start of this.

And it's speaking on a metaphorical level that I enjoyed.

So, yeah, what did you guys think?

Yeah, I mean, this was

the high point of the movie for me.

What do you think?

I mean,

it sums up the movie,

like the themes very well.

I do think there's like a certain part of it where I'm like, I mean, look, I do feel

people who have mental illnesses that cause them to be violent, which is a very small portion of mental illness.

It's been pointed out very, very frequently that, you know, I don't know.

Movies make it pretty clear that there's an army of maniacs

out there multiple times.

And the fucking New York Post.

Yes, movies tend to

blame mental illness when those with mental illnesses tend to be victims more often than perpetrators.

But

it's an odd thing where I do think the movie,

it paints the themes well, but it's also sort of like, you should be really sad for this murdering guy.

Well,

that's part of the issue with the movie is like, hey, this guy who you saw kill all those people,

he's the one who got hurt here.

But also, I don't know that the cartoon, I don't know the cartoon and the movie are buying into the mental illness

storyline.

To me, it felt more like this was about.

There's this duality in his character that everyone has, but it's particularly bad in him.

He has the dark side of this perverse id, you know.

Yeah, I do think he rejects that by the end himself in the movie, but that's the note it kicks off on.

Yeah, we'll get there.

So it then cuts to

live action.

Arthur Fleck, played by Joaquin Phoenix.

looking very malnourished, beaten up.

What seems like at least a year or so later after the events of the first film is currently imprisoned in Arkham Asylum, awaiting trial.

There has been a TV movie about him, and we see him, we are introduced to him emptying out his piss bucket with all the other inmates.

He is tormented by his guards,

the lead guard Jackie Sullivan, played by Brendan Gleason.

I checked.

Getting a similar note from Paddington, too.

But he's on the other side of the bars this time.

He's a prisoner.

I checked.

All his fingers were there, which makes me think there was some trickery and lying on the set of Banshees of Indushiran, you know.

Yeah.

And

movie magic.

I'm glad that you answered the question that I had, which is, is that supposed to be a piss bucket?

Because he seems to be supposed to have a lot of liquid out.

Like a lot of liquid out.

He's been standing it up.

He's been saying, I thought your question was going to be, is that the same character as in Paddington, too?

Yeah.

Okay, so he, he has to meet his lawyer, played by Catherine Keener.

Her name is Marianne Stewart, who is pushing him.

She is very protective of him, and she doesn't seem, honestly, doesn't seem to have, seems to have his best interests at heart.

And she is pushing for a plea of insanity with like an edge on like a disassociated behavior or like multiple personalities.

Yes, she's trying to sell the idea that he has multiple personalities and that Arthur Fleck cannot be found guilty for the crimes of the Joker because he's a

sick individual rather than a criminal, heinous, you know, perpetrator of horrible violent crimes.

Kevin Painter can't be unhappy when she shows up in a movie.

Always good.

There's a great, this movie has a great cast.

Like, there's like Steve Coogan shows up in one scene, and I was like, didn't expect that.

Great.

Yeah.

And I think they're all doing,

I would say, good work with what they are told to do.

Like, maybe

what they are told to do, I don't agree with, but they are executing it very well.

Much like the film Megalopolis, there are a number of performers who are doing what they need to do in this film, even though

they're being, they are running a great race, even though the race is headed towards a cliff, basically, you know.

Uh, so uh, Arthur gets set up for music therapy.

I'm gonna jump around a little bit because this is fine.

This is actually this movie clocking in at what two hours and 20-some minutes, I would say is padded.

Yes,

I was saying to you guys over text, I think there's a great 20-minute short buried in this two-hour and roughly 20-minute movie.

Yeah, I mean, the point has been made before, but this movie, to sum it up, is essentially a court case litigating the first movie.

Yes.

Yeah.

Which is an interesting choice.

But you don't even get to the court case until over an hour into the film.

A lot of the movie is, this is how depressing it is to be in jail.

And it's like, yeah, it sucks.

I get it.

Like, that's what Shawshank Redemption is about.

We saw that.

Like, you don't have to do a show us all of that.

There's a version of this movie that shows.

Joker.

Elliot saying, like, who cares?

The American prison industrial complex.

already.

So, I think from a storytelling point of view, there's a version of this movie that opens with him pouring out a piss bucket, him getting beaten up by the guards, and then suddenly he's at his trial.

Basically, like, or suddenly he's meeting Lady Gaga's character.

There's just like a lot of, a lot of this movie is atmosphere, and the atmosphere is, let's just say, urine-scented.

Yeah, like there's a there's a moment where he's being like right near the beginning, where he's being taken by his guards from one wing to the other wing, and they go through a like they go from one building to another outside and it's raining and all the guards open their black umbrellas and the rain is pouring down on him and he looks up and when he looks up you see all the umbrellas are different colors yeah and then it cuts back to them having black umbrellas and i'm like movie you're trying too hard here

it's this movie has it has a lot of style it has a lot of ideas for how to present a story that does not have a lot of ideas in it.

You know, like, I think that this, it's, it's got at heart, like, again, just like the first movie, the production is great.

But what the production is doing is not up to the level of

what everyone else's talents are.

You know,

so Arthur gets set up for music therapy in a like a lower security wing.

And that's where he meets Lee Quinzel, played by Stephanie Germanata.

You might know her by her stage name, Dan.

Lady Gaka.

Yes, indeed.

So she immediately takes a liking to Arthur.

Turns out that she is familiar with his case.

She has watched the TV movie many times.

And according to her, she comes from a similar family background as him.

Like

this is true love immediately.

And this is

a very

different take on Harley Quinn than we've seen.

The exact opposite of the traditional take on Harley Quinn.

One that fits in this movie, but not elsewhere.

Yeah, well, I was going to say, because usually, you know, spoiler alert for the rest of this movie, usually, usually you know joker is sort of the manipulative uh character in the relationship the abusive one like in this film sort of she is shown to be kind of the poisonous one finally leading him down

well no i mean like that's

it's an interesting thing because it's like well i mean at least this movie's not buying into their like genuine like mad love bullshit where like you see like yeah that's relationship goals like people like no this is a terrible relationship, but do people really say relationship goals for Joker?

There are some twisted types online,

but um oh, so the late Cormac McCarthy.

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Uh, he fucking would love Joker.

He would love it, but but they replace that.

They they do that by making

like Joker the victim kind of in a situation.

There's no kind of he Joker is excluded.

Like, I feel like between all both movies, he is the victim here.

Yes.

They present him as relatively like, despite a guy who murders people, I feel like the movie bends over backwards to make him as sympathetic as possible at all times.

Yeah, I mean, yes,

he's the victim of life, but even more so, yeah, within the relationship dynamics,

she has like, she seems to be the one to see him, but she sees the legend of the Joker.

But really, he's a sap, and she and she sees the figure.

Instead of doing the problematic, the Joker seducing a woman into a life of crime and a kind of violent relationship, they have gone to the much more progressive women are liars

who will lead you down the garden path

in a better way, which is, you know, finally we're making some moves.

Finally, women can be blamed for problems in Joker movies.

It just was so funny because it was like, oh, so you're going for the literally the oldest story, which is a woman leading a man wrong.

But as I was just saying, yo, dog, eat this fucking apple.

and he's like what he's like i mean this is the movie i wouldn't have surprised me if there's a scene in a movie where she hands it a scene in this movie where harley hands him an apple and he takes a bite and the movie just stops and get it flashes on the screen a bunch of times but i will say this wait i just want to say as the person who's currently writing the harley quinn series for dc comics in comic stores now uh I thought I was going to be more irritated by their handling of Harley Quinn, but this movie is so outside the world of the other DC universe characters that it didn't, it only bothered me in terms of, oh, she, they're just presenting her as like a, as a manipulative bitch, as opposed to, oh, they've done something to this character, you know, and so not the, not the character.

So it's fine.

Yeah.

And within the like questionable strictures of the character they've given her, I think Lady Gaga is doing a great job at being this kind of, you know, hidden sociopath,

you know, has

all these like conflicted facets of her personality, like, like is drawn to this, but like is ultimately like a sickness for this uh relationship it's it's compelling like she's doing a good job with a kind of a weird version of this character yeah

um and so finally finding somebody who seems to understand him this leads us to our first uh musical number from uh from arthur uh where while watching the tv he kind of bursts into song in front of the other inmates um like a lot of the songs i would say you guys can correct me but they seem to to be standards.

Yes,

there's no original songs in the movie, as far as I can tell.

They're all kind of like standards and Great American Songbook or like 70s and 70s.

Or yeah, later.

I mean, there's Stevie Wonder in there.

Yeah.

But they're all well-known songs.

It's not an original musical, you know.

And I would say

Joaquin Phoenix

has a, let's say, non-traditional singing voice.

Lady Gaga, obviously,

very talented.

But I would say I don't think any of their versions

add anything to the songs that they're singing.

No, well, the weird thing with Lady Gaga is you've hired someone who has an amazing voice, but she's playing a character who cannot, who is not a singer.

And so I read a little bit, her talking about like she had to, she had to sing in a different way and breathe in a different way than she normally does because this character does not have that training.

And so.

Even her singing is not great a lot of the time.

There are times later on when it's more fantasy, when she sings really well, but you get a lot of a great singer and a great actor kind of like doing hushed, not great versions of

songs, you know?

Yeah.

This is something that I think could work really well in small doses in a movie, but this movie is also kind of like slathered with the characters.

It's like whenever they don't quite know what to do with the characters, they start going like, hush, little baby.

Don't say a word.

Like they'll just start like whisper songs to each other, you know?

I would say that none of the musical, I could be wrong, but none of the musical numbers add anything except for runtime.

I don't know about that because I do like a bunch of them, and I love whenever Joaquin Phoenix is in a fantasy musical number and is playing the Joker, playing to the audience, doing a lot of that stuff of like mugging and doing kind of hand motions.

I love all that.

He does a fantastic job at that.

You know, that's really cool.

Maybe that's that's the number in the courtroom later.

I feel like it's probably the highlight of the movie.

Okay, I wanted to say there were a couple that I liked that I liked his first

number when he first breaks out in song and does a whole thing around the room of the inmates watching TV.

And he's just, he's doing it all with personality because, as you say, his voice isn't amazing.

He does a fine job, but it's not his strength.

And I liked if

they could see me now as they are escaping because it's a more dynamic scene overall, what's happening.

But in general, it's one of these things where it's like, oh, I guess that this is a musical for the same reason you referenced Pennies from Heaven before.

Like, I never really, I've never seen the

mini-series, which I understand is better, but I never liked the movie because it only seemed to be like, hey, you like the fun and escapism of musicals?

Well, guess what?

Life is shit.

You're going to rub your face at how life is shit, and we're going to put some songs in there.

So it's even more ironic.

And it's like, yeah, I get it, man.

It's not, you're not blowing my mind with this.

But yeah.

It is similar to that.

Did you guys like my version of Tom Waits doing Hush Little Baby earlier?

I loved it.

That was pretty cool.

Hush Little Baby.

Don't say a word.

Oh, yeah, I love it.

Yeah.

The devil's creeping in the bottle.

That kind of stuff.

It always turns into something about the devil or drinking.

So,

and also, I feel like, I don't know if this is done at all.

Stuart, he should be your favorite singer, Tom Waits, because you love weightslifting.

I do love weightslifting.

You don't like lifting weights.

And he's like, put me down, Stuart.

And if you're going to ask me what my favorite drum was, I'd say it's the Toms.

um so uh

i don't know they don't make this explicit but i feel like the the start of these musical numbers coincides with him stopping to take like secretly not taking his medication which he makes for everyone possible i to be honest i kind of yeah i think i missed the the the connection there but i bet you're right yeah guys i watched this movie twice oh stewart i'm gonna get

following

i don't want to stop the forward momentum too much but that brings up dance the movie keeps stopping the forward momentum.

It just brings up a question for me about how this handles the music too that I wonder how you felt about, where

it is,

all of the musical numbers are either dreams that he has or fantasies that he has.

It never like truly seems to bleed into reality except for maybe the voicemail he leaves her on the phone.

And

that handling, like, I kind of, I don't know, I kind of wanted to see it break the bonds and mess mess up those lines a little bit more.

But what do you guys think?

I'm a little curious, man.

I'm curious.

I feel like that's part of why it, I feel like that's part of why I feel like

my attitude that it doesn't add much is because it always feels like it's outside of the narrative.

I mean, I think all a musical number needs to do, this just not to take you down, Stuart, harshly.

I feel like all a musical number needs to do in a movie to add something is just be enjoyable.

And there are some that accomplish that, but I agree that the rubric is so clear where it's like, this this is the stuff they feel like they can't say out loud.

So they sing it.

And it does feel like once you've cracked that code, it's like, all right.

And it's not like the songs make different points throughout.

Like a great musical, people are expressing different emotions through songs.

And with these, it's mostly the same kind of two or three emotions.

But I think, but I do, I wish that they had a, I guess that's the difference between

an artist like Todd Phillips and an artist like Bob Fosse is when you watch all that jazz, there are parts where you're like, this man is breaking down.

I don't know where the line is between what's real and what's not real anymore and what he's presenting as in the mind of the character and what's happening.

Or like Synectike New York, which is not a musical, but has a similar sort of breakdown in reality, where it's like, there's a single-way, let me

recategorize Synectoke New York in my DVD collection.

You had it in the music.

Some fantasy is no music section.

Right next to a Raging Bull.

But I think there's a, maybe that's, maybe that's a, the difference sometimes between a craftsman and an artist is an artist making like a messiness that is more powerful in some ways than a, than a well-crafted, you know, straight line thing.

Maybe this is just because I finished reading Sam Watson's book about Francis Ford Coppola, and

he makes every one of his movies sound like a, like a phantasmagoric, you know, kind of like messy thrill ride.

But maybe sometimes art needs to be messy.

and entertainment needs to be clean.

And this one is like entertainment trying to be art, maybe?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't know how to say it, you know.

And also, I don't know how to say it, but I'll keep talking because that's what Elliot Kalen does.

And before we jump even further, we do have to point out that like

the choice to make this movie arguably a musical is also part of that, like

the edginess of it and like pushing back against some of the fans, right?

Like, is that the feeling like that there was an effort to be like,

I think that that's possibly part of it, but it's but it's if so, it's bungled so much by Todd Phillips, like

even though this is clearly, as far as I'm concerned, a musical, like it breaks into full musical numbers all the time, like Todd Phillips actively was like, Don't call it, though, a musical, though, even though there's a bunch of musical numbers in it.

And it's like

it's as much of a musical as Amelia Perez, which is considered a musical.

But I wonder if that was a deliberate, I feel like every choice he, I don't know that every choice he made was a deliberate, like, you want this, well, I'm giving you this.

You want a Batman movie?

Well, I'm giving you a musical.

Because the fact is, like, Hollywood always likes to say that people don't like musicals, but I don't know about Joker fans in particular, but for most audiences, I think if they know going in there will be music, they enjoy it for the most part.

Like Wicked was just a huge hit and it wasn't, and I bet you there's some overlap between people who like Joker and people who like Wicked.

Because it's all nerds, right?

And like, I think the, and also, like, these days, even incels like music.

I mean, they don't necessarily like the great American songbook, you know, they, you know, they're more into the kind of stuff that Stewart listens to, you know, where it's real harsh and it's all anger at the world.

You know, yeah, yep.

It's all bring me to life by evanescence.

But I think, but I do think they're, I do think the movie is doing certain things to like push back at the audience watching it, but I don't know if making it a musical is necessarily that also like if you cast Lady Gaga in your movie and the audience comes in not expecting some music, that's on them.

That's their problem.

That's their fault, you know?

So let's get speaking of Lady Gaga.

Oh, yeah.

In the middle of watching a movie.

Is she in this movie?

Yeah, well, I'm talking about her right now.

In the middle of watching a, the inmates watching a movie in the like less secure wing.

They're watching the bandwagon.

Thank you with Frost Air.

Yeah.

Where the best entertainment comes from, which becomes a motif in this one.

Yeah.

Lee sneaks off to smoke a cigarette and she starts a fire in the piano, which causes a big ruckus.

And in the tumult, she

does start a big ruckus.

Yeah.

Fucking, yeah, why do you interrupt me?

I was right.

So in the in the scrum, she and Arthur like temporarily slip out.

Like they temporarily escape.

They don't leave the grounds, but they basically like run around outside and dance together.

It's fun.

I mean, I will say this about this movie.

It is very, if it's messy in any place, it is messy in the amount of security precautions around Arthur Fleck, who is somehow treated as the most dangerous man in Gotham and also allowed just free reign, especially in the courtroom scenes.

It is bonkers in the amount of rope that the judge gives him.

He will allow it.

He's like intimidating a witness on the stand in the moment, and the judge is like, Watch yourself, counselor.

It's like it's ridiculous.

But anyway,

it's like in the rule book that says a joker can't be a lawyer.

So they get recaptured.

He gets dragged off and put into solitary.

He's visited by Lee in solitary solitary confinement where she explains that she's leaving.

They're trying to separate the two of them because he's a bad influence.

Yep.

Thank you.

And in the, but one, before they go, she smears some Joker makeup on his face and they have sex.

And I mean, I think that this is a fuck you to Joker fans because it is clear that the Mr.

Arthur Fleck lasts about.

you know, five or six seconds.

I mean, I have to say he's a virgin.

He's got to be a virgin, right?

Yeah.

Like, what's the, well, I mean, especially because, yeah, he looks at her like, okay, that was cool, right?

That was good.

He's like, damn, that's some gorilla cocoos.

He's like, sorry, I rocked your world, Harley.

Yeah.

Are you going to need a minute?

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, I'm not going to make any of the jokes I'm going to make.

He doesn't light a cigarette after it, which is weird because he's smoking throughout most of the movie.

For the first like third of the movie, his lines are, got a cigarette, or can I have a cigarette?

That is it.

So shortly after this,

he is set up for an interview with Patty Myers, played by Steve Coogan.

And it seems to be an actual person.

I love it when Steve Coogan does an American accent.

I love when Steve Coogan does an American accent.

And he is able to play a

like a jerk that's not over the top a jerk in a very like perfect way.

He is, I mean, I've heard mixed things about him as a human being in terms of just not being, just being a jerk, but when it it comes to his performance, he is the favorite asshole in television movies.

He is the best at playing an oblivious asshole, a jealous asshole, a competitive asshole.

He's so, I think he's so funny.

And this way, like, and here's so, he's so good at playing an asshole reporter.

But even then, it's like the movie is like, isn't this guy a jerk?

Look at the way he's treating our beloved Joker.

And it's like, one of them is a murderer, the other is just an interviewer.

Hold on, sick.

And so, this, this, this interview seems to be broadcast live, which is kind of wild.

And his

lawyer, Catherine Keener, is hesitant to have him do it, but she thinks he's prepared for it.

And she's very, it has this very like mothering aspect.

And at this point, Arthur like goes to kiss her on the lips.

And it's one of these moments where it's like, oh yeah, this guy is so unused to anyone being nice to him that he becomes like obsessed with them.

So the interview basically devolves into him singing a love song to Lady Gaga,

Harley, through the TV.

At this point, we also learn that Harley has, that Lee is kind of famous and has been doing interviews about him.

This is one of the weird things is that because it's so through Arthur's perspective, I had a hard time understanding what Lee's relationship with the rest of the world was.

Like by the end of the movie, at his final court day, she is wearing Joker makeup on her face, and the police are escorting her past a crowd into the court, basically.

And I was like, Does the does the defendant's girlfriend usually get like when who clearly is a bad influence on him?

She's dressed up like him when he committed his crimes.

Like, is that the kind of thing that they need to make sure is in the room with him?

I mean, that's a pretty cool outfit.

You don't want that to get ripped up by her.

I mean, it's a, I mean, to be honest, it's the most Harley Quinn outfit she wears in the whole thing.

Yeah, you know, it doesn't look that different from the outfit Harley Quinn wears in my current run on the book, Harley Quinn from DC Comics in stores now.

And can I just buy that at a store?

You can just go to any comic bookstore.

It'll be on the shelves.

Ask them to order the next issue for you if it's not there.

I don't think I have to get it behind the counter, go into like a special back room.

Nope, not at all.

It should be right there on the racks, right there on the regular shelves.

You can go into that special back room, Dan.

There's some interesting material.

What do they do?

Yeah,

if you want to read Faust,

you know, Blood of the Damned or whatever it is, then go to that back room.

But stay in the front room if you want Harley Quinn, written by me, from DC Comics.

Okay, so Dan, if you want the kind of books that Glenn Danzig publishes, go to that back room.

Oh, that's super scary and also kind of sexy.

Speaking of sexy and scary, Joker, follow you too.

Yeah, so the trial begins.

The DA, Harvey Dent, is the prosecutor.

Assistant DA.

I'll let you go on.

Yeah, it's fine.

They are seeking the death penalty.

And

again, his lawyer lawyer is pushing for a a multiple personality diagnosis um i'll one thing that i liked that this movie didn't do although i guess it's on arthur's side so i don't see what it is is so many of these movies have a lawyer who is like you can't kill my client because he's criminally insane and the movie presents them as if they're the real villain you know and catherine keener's character i feel like maybe it's just because i'm so sympathetic towards any character played by catherine keener even in being john malkovich where she's kind of the villain like uh i but i feel like she she is not presented as a person who has a wild, like erroneous theory.

She's that she's also trying to do her best by her client.

Yeah, she doesn't seem to have an additional ulterior.

She's not using him for something.

Yes.

Yeah.

And also during this time,

like.

Lee shows up at the trial and she even in during a recess, she even interrupts Catherine Keener's character while she's giving interviews to like yell at her and make a big scene.

And she makes a statement that when Arthur gets out,

they're going to make a mountain out of a little hill and then walks off.

And one of the reporters is like, what does that mean?

Which is pretty funny.

Yeah.

She's mad because in the course of

trying to prove that he did these things because of his abusive childhood,

all these things happened to him, the fact that he dealt with this

by creating this Joker figure who is to blame.

He's mentally ill.

Harley feels like this is making him look weak, like a fool.

And

it's tearing down the legend of him that she has fallen in love with.

And this is something I wish the movie was like a little bit better at handling because it's clearly what it wants to handle, which is the idea that this is a guy who has had a bad, had a hard life and was broken by it and committed a crime.

And to the outside world, he has become a figure that they can project their anger about the world on.

But we never see the outside world when they're like, there are crowds of people out there cheering for the Joker.

We almost never see those crowds.

Lee is our only representative from that.

And she's so close to Fleck that it's hard to, like, I know it's, it's so, they made a choice to make it all through Joker's perspective, but I do wish we had a little bit of a better idea of how the outside world is seeing him because he's so clearly a broken guy who committed a bunch of crimes.

And his biggest crime was killing a talk show host on TV.

So the idea that other people are like, yeah, he's taken down the systems that we need taken down is kind of ridiculous.

Like,

if somebody went on the air and killed Jimmy Fallon, I don't think that all these people would come out of the work work being like, yeah, it's time to take on the system.

You know,

Dan would.

Except.

Dan would.

Well, because the system Dan wants to take on is Jimmy Fallon.

Yeah.

Except the people who, you know, love the movie Joker

have this sort of like sympathetic, like, you know, like we live in a society attitude that I think that this movie is explicitly taking on in the character of Lady Gaga and being like, look, this is the real sociopath, the person who thinks that this is a good thing and projects their like own feelings onto it and wants to kill even though they have haven't had a tragic life, all this stuff.

But I think, but I think she's so clearly, I mean, from moment one, I don't know if you guys, from moment one, I figured like, oh, she's, she's playing a game.

Like, she's so clearly not a sincere character.

Whereas we live in a world where someone murdered a healthcare company CEO and that person became a hero to broad swaths of the population.

Like,

that's what Joker is trying to get at.

And I feel like there's a, there's a, in the real world version of it, it's so much more

logical sense that someone for taking that kind of hit.

And so the, um, so I, maybe, maybe the, maybe the movie hits me differently than would have otherwise if a very similar circumstance hadn't happened in a more in a clearer way.

I don't know.

And also the guy wasn't wearing fucking clown makeup when he did it, you know.

So there's something about the there's something about the break the bringing in, especially the end of people wearing clown makeup as like a like a go-to thing.

I guess it's not that different from wearing Guy Fox masks or anything like that.

You know, they're all Spartacus at that point, you know?

You know, man.

I guess that was the funniest thing at the end.

Well, I guess we'll get to it.

There's a guy who's driving Joker around and he's wearing Joker makeup and he's like, get your head down, get your your head down.

It's like, well, you're the one wearing Joker makeup.

Stop somebody.

It's you.

So at this point,

you know, Arthur explains his plans with Harley to his lawyer, who's like, actually, you know, she doesn't come from the same background as you.

She actually lives on the Upper West Side.

She has a healthy family life.

She has a PhD in psychology.

She was able to check herself in and out at will.

Did you guys, did you guys,

did this pick, did this affect you at all?

Maybe I'm reading too much into it.

I'm sure I am.

They're like, she's from the Upper West Side.

Her father is a doctor.

And I'm like, oh, she's Jewish.

I get it.

Okay.

She's an evil Jewess who is leading him astray.

Thanks, movie.

But maybe I'm just reading too much.

Maybe I'm just too, too prepped.

I think that there's a context as a

Jewish New Yorker that, or I mean, you know, New Jersey and who lived in New York for years that you

that you're applying that like makes sense, but I think the movie's just trying to code it as like she had a privileged upbringing.

She's

Quinzel a Jewish name?

It was probably Quinzella.

Quinzelovsky or Quinzelovich.

They changed it.

And then they changed it to Quinzella's Island.

Yeah.

And I do like...

Ellis Island was for non-clowns.

Quinzella's Island was for clowns.

They would raid in the United States.

I'm sure this has been addressed before, but

the statue of Lafferty.

That's where we're going.

I'm sure this has been addressed before.

Yeah, man, right down the line.

They make a point at the start of the trial to say the people of of New York versus the state of New York versus Arthur Fleck.

So I'm like, yeah, okay, officially Gotham is New York.

Is part of New York, yeah.

Okay.

I mean, I feel like Eric Adams would be totally fine with a Joker running around.

If ever there was a mayor who would fit in a Batman movie, it is Eric Adams.

For sure.

A hundred thousand.

If ever I could see a mayor where Too-Face or the Joker or the penguin would show up in his office and be like, we've got to make a deal.

And him going, okay, man, let's figure it out.

Like, it's Eric Adams.

You mean the mayor who, when he won the like primary that he was definitely going to win no matter what, he was like, we did it.

So I got myself diamond earrings.

Like, yeah, I pierced my ears.

It's like, yeah, cool.

Thanks.

I'm glad that that was the promise you made.

Okay.

Again, wait.

So we have the guy who shot the healthcare executive.

We have Eric Adams.

The real world is doing such a better job of being a gritty Batman movie or realistic Batman movie than the Joker series is.

You're upsetting me.

Okay.

Dan, it's Batman's World.

We're just living in it, you know?

So Arthur confronts Harley about this information.

She reveals that she did it all so that they could be together.

And guess what?

She did it for the nookie.

She's pregnant.

She did do it for the nookie, in fact.

And that led to a pregnancy.

Yes.

It can happen the first time, Dan.

So don't.

That's true.

So when I do it for the first time, I'll remember that.

On the other hand,

you could get pregnant the first time, Dan.

So please, you be safe.

I don't want you to get pregnant without wanting it.

On the other hand, she's smoking throughout.

So she's like, I'm pregnant, takes a puff, blows out smoke.

And I was waiting for Arthur to be like, well, stop smoking, but it doesn't occur to him.

No, it doesn't.

He's too busy singing songs.

Okay, so he around now,

I can't remember the exact order, but I think he dismisses his lawyer at this point.

Yes, he takes over his own.

He's going to defend himself.

The state brings,

the state brings his former coworker, Gary Puddles.

Wait, this is actually.

He shows up in court in joker makeup, and they're like, you're your own counsel.

A lawyer has the right to dress their client however they wish for a court.

You looked up all the pertinent

casework on the there is no way.

There is no way I could see if Donald Trump, because he's the president elect, if he went in and he was like, I'm painting my face like a clown, then I could see them going like, oh, well, the rules don't apply to you.

No, dude.

If you go to a fucking boardwalk somewhere, there's got to be a Donald Trump in Joker makeup.

Yes, like a t-shirt.

But the thing is, that same t-shirt, you could wear it to make fun of him or to support him.

That's why he was wearing it.

That's a fucking genius top seller.

That's why you could sell it that way.

But the idea that the judge is like...

Sure, it smells like weed and incense, but like, you can wear that shit anywhere.

Again,

that's also part of the Venn diagram in the middle, you know.

The idea that the judge is like, yeah, you should probably dress the way you did when you committed the crime that you're on trial for.

And then when this witness comes in, I'm going to let you lean right close to him him and talk and yell at him.

And also, you get to interrogate him in a southern lawyer voice.

Like

the judge never butts in.

The judge explicitly was like, okay, you can be your own lawyer as long as you don't turn this into a circus.

And then he doesn't stop it the moment he starts doing the like, I'm just a poor country lawyer.

Dan, he literally walked in in clown makeup.

Yeah.

Like that's nothing gets more circus than that.

Yeah, that's true.

I did say this about, I will say this about the clown, that the southern lawyer voice, he sticks with it for a long time.

I didn't like it when he started.

And at a certain point, I was like, damn it, I got to respect it.

He's still doing it.

He's still doing it.

Yeah.

A commitment to the bit that, you know, is unmatched.

So his former co-worker, Gary Puddles, comes up, and he is a character who I feel like.

Based on the first movie, you would hope that he is going to be sympathetic toward Arthur.

Like he was Arthur's kind of one friend.

And of course, the picture that he paints is one of Arthur being dangerous and scary.

And how he has lived in fear since this,

you know, like these killings happened.

He's been terrified.

Like, you know, the Joker tries to be like, I didn't hurt you.

Like, you're my friend.

He's like, you didn't hurt me?

What are you talking about?

Like, all of these things have like

ruined my life in certain ways.

And this is a moment in the movie.

And Arthur's genuinely affected by it.

And I was thinking about like, why does this moment in the movie, like, this is a scene that works for me.

I was going to say the same thing.

I think this is

the best non-musical scene in the movie to me.

The only thing I don't like in it is the shot of the phone book that Puddles is sitting on to get to reach the witness stand.

I was like, unnecessary, but you're right.

When he says,

I'm afraid, I'm scared all the time.

And Joker drops his voice and goes, you're my friend.

Like, I wasn't going to hurt you.

I'd never hurt you.

And then when the guy's like, you like, you're the only one who didn't make fun of me.

Like, basically, why did you do this?

I think

it's the only real emotion moment in the whole movie, basically.

That's what I was going to say.

Like, I think that this movie wants to be a movie about, like,

you have empathy for the wrong things, right?

Like,

you love this legend of the Joker.

You should not feel that way about it.

You should feel sad for this, you know, mentally ill man.

You should be sad for like the damage that has been caused.

You should feel empathy.

But this is the only scene in the movie that I think actually has any empathy, whereas the rest of the movie is very mean to all of its characters.

It reminds me of something Todd Solons once said, where someone asked him, like, do you like any of your characters?

And he's like, I love all my characters.

That's why I have to make these movies about them.

And it's like, really?

Because all your movies, they're just putting people through hell.

So I don't know if you're communicating the love that you feel for these characters.

And this movie is a little bit like that, where it's...

It thinks that it is making Flex sympathetic, I guess, by like shitting on him and beating him up constantly.

But this is, yeah, this is the one moment where he connects with another human being in a genuine way.

Yeah, I agree.

I thought this, this was, I was like, oh, if this was the movie, this would be a great movie, you know.

And they also, they also bring his former neighbor, Sophie, played by Zazzie Beats, to the

stand.

And she had a relationship with Arthur's mother.

And a lot of her testimony is basically saying all the horrible things Arthur's mother used to say.

And it's very much a like, and it's, it's painting, again, painting Arthur as a potentially dangerous certainly pathetic figure

and no amount of like clown makeup can make him uh get get the strength back that he was i think that he was hoping to have going in uh in full joker outfit

um when it comes time to call his own witnesses he says he has none which i feel like don't you have to let the judge know in advance who you're who you're witnessing are supposed to you are supposed to uh give them i think a list of witnesses ahead of time because also there's the whole discovery period where both sides have to share whatever evidence they have.

I mean, there are surprise witnesses, I guess.

So maybe there's...

Almost all my courtroom knowledge is based on my cousin Vinny.

Which is supposedly the accurate one.

And your cousin Vinny is a great lawyer.

I mean, he got Harvey Weierstein.

He got Harvey Feierstein off the first couple times.

Harvey Feierstein?

No, that's why I made a woman say Harvey Weinstein.

I said Harvey Weierne.

Thank you, Vinny.

I said, I said

terrible Harvey Feisteen.

I said Harvey Weierstein because I was trying to say Harvey Weinstein.

I didn't want to say his name.

So I guess it turned into Harvey Firestein.

And then I chose the wrong direction.

So forget it.

I won't make any more jokes.

That's nothing like hearing Harvey Firestein get off.

Okay.

Go on.

You want to say that?

My cousin Vinny is a great movie.

Let's just get that.

I was going to keep pretending Stuart has a cousin Vinny, who's a lawyer, but let's not worry about it.

Arthur, then, like, before

wrapping up for the day and before deliberations and whatnot, he ends up like mocking the guards at Arkham Asylum, which means that when he goes back,

led by Brittany Gleason, they beat him up real bad and assault him and strip him naked.

And there's, what, is there an implied sexual assault?

I think that is implied, yes.

I don't know.

I wasn't sure.

And then they, and then they, and then they kill the other guy, right?

They kill the guy.

They kill his friend, yeah.

Um, this causes him to, uh, Arthur, when he goes in to to give his final statement, he renounces the Joker.

He takes full responsibility.

Now, he sits on a stool and holds a microphone like he's performing a show, but he's just giving a speech.

Do you think he had to ask ahead of time, can I have a stool and a microphone?

Because nobody else uses a microphone unless they're in the witness box.

You know, he doesn't.

Yeah, I'm sure he had to.

He set that up in advance.

Yeah.

He said, The judge, can I have a stool and a microphone?

And the judge was like, There's no rule that says you can't.

Just don't put on a show.

The jury comes back after after deliberations.

It was super short.

They find him guilty on all counts.

As soon as the sentencing happens, there is an explosion from a car bomb outside.

We get classic movie tinnitus sounds

and some

Arthur manages to drag himself outside.

He's wandering the streets.

He bumps into a guy in Joker makeup who then rushes him to a car.

He is being escorted.

He's being driven away by these Joker-fied fellows, who, as you mentioned before, is like, stay down so nobody sees you.

Stay down so nobody sees you.

Meanwhile, two guys with Joker faces are fleeing or driving away from the scene.

The cops are like, oh, I only see two clowns in that car.

There are probably only two clowns in a car.

Surely no more clowns can't fit in a car.

If I know something about clowns and cars, it's hard to get more than two of them into one.

This is the sequence where the movie, very briefly, for like five or six minutes, becomes Bo is afraid.

And I was like, oh, okay, it's turning into Bo is Afraid.

I liked liked most of that movie.

Okay, great.

Uh, yeah, so he eventually, like, he escapes from them and he goes running down the street.

They chase him for a little while.

And even after he escapes from them, they're shouting, like, Hey, we still like you.

Um, he ends up at the stairs near his apartment where he runs into Harley, who is the famous stairs.

The famous stairs, which is maybe the

greatest moment in cinema history when he high-kicks down the stairs to the

song from the first movie.

Wasn't that when you saw that moment, wasn't it like, oh, finally, film has reached the reason it was invented?

It wasn't like Flash entering the Speed Force.

Oh, you're right.

You're right.

Flash Entering the Speed Force.

That's the only time I ever see it cheered in the theater.

You reminded me how unexpected, like, even now, I can't really wrap my head around the fact that that was the song they cheered.

Yeah.

I told you, I think, did I ever mention this on the second roll number one?

Is that what it's called?

What's it called?

I don't remember which number.

It's not Mamo number five because that has a little bit of Jennifer in my eaves.

Is she the eaves of the house?

Yeah.

So I saw, before I'd seen the movie, I kept seeing on Twitter this one tweet that was like the great, like the greatest moment film, The Apotheosis of the Joker, and just showed that guy walking

window steps.

And finally, I clicked on it to hear the sound, and it was the

song.

And I thought it was a joke video that somebody had made that in order to make fun of that moment.

And then I watched the movie and I was like, that's the real song they used.

This is ridiculous.

You've been joker-fied.

That's like rock and roll part two, the sequel, Judgment Day.

So he

finds Harley.

He is so excited to find her, but she rejects him.

She wants the Joker.

She does not want Arthur.

And she abandons him.

And

he is then picked up by the police.

He's recaptured.

He's taken back to Arkham Asylum.

So all the fans who were like, saw him being taken away in the car and were like, this is it.

This is when he becomes the Joker.

That fantasy gets shot down instantly by the police taking him in again.

Yeah.

And Arthur, both Arthur and the fans fantasy is destroyed.

And they're also like, oh, man, we made it through two plus hours of this movie.

Time for the real movie to start.

Now it's going to be good.

Time for Batman to show up.

So they,

while walking alone down a hallway, he's confronted by another inmate who tells him a joke and then stabs him to death it's not much of a joke no i mean i'm not i i i just said it was a joke i didn't qualify okay fair fair point fair point i didn't say it was like a super hilarious joke says arthur do you want to hear a joke and arthur says yeah i mean like arthur this is one of these cases where you know he seems to uh

you know he goes out in a moment where he tries to be like a nice

human.

Like he seems like he's like, oh, you know, someone's connecting with me.

Yeah.

Connect with them as a normal person.

Like, yeah, I'll sit here through your increasingly unfunny and insulting joke.

Yeah.

And then he gets stabbed for it.

Yeah, he gets shanked and he collapses on the ground.

And in his dying moments, he thinks about Harley.

He smiles a little bit.

And in the background, we see that inmate carving his own face up.

And that's the end of the movie.

And did you think this was in any way supposed to be a tip like, okay, fans, you want it to be a Batman movie?

Here's how the Heath Ledger Joker got his smile.

I do think, or is it just totally unrelated?

I think it is a

tip of the hat.

It is done in a way that you can interpret how you feel, but I think the fact that he's carving it into his face, the smile at his face, yeah, is referencing that.

And it's like, surprise, you just watched two movies about a Joker, not the Joker.

There was no article.

We didn't make any guarantees.

We never called the movie the Joker.

You can't sue us.

So it's kind of tough.

How's Arthur flucking joker gonna get out of this one for port

i don't think uh oh steward

it would be so funny if they hired somebody now they hire like um

who like who's who's just like an action filmmaker i'm trying to think of one that's that's around now that they hire they hire one just to do a joker 3 where he does get out of it and joaquin phoenix is like ha ha ha ha ha

and running a crime gang and things like that

they got all the stunt choreographers that from the john wick movies to do it

um but

it is a lot of movie to never have him really be the Joker.

And

he's just a Joker.

He's just a guy, man.

Okay, so that's the whole movie.

We talked about the whole movie.

The whole movie.

There's no credit scene.

I'll tell you right now, Stuart.

Thank God.

Having watched it twice, I shut it off before any potential credit scenes.

Our reward is getting to pass judgment on this film in our final judgments, whether this is a good, bad movie, a bad, bad movie, or a movie kind of like,

I will say, it is not a movie I kind of liked.

It was a movie I sort of respected in a weird way.

Like, I'm like, well, I see what you're doing, movie.

And I got to say, I guess you're successful at it.

I just don't necessarily care to see the thing that you're trying to do.

Like, and, you know, part of the point is the movie's trying to alienate me.

So I guess good work.

But

jokes on you, Dan.

The movie did exactly what it wanted you to do, which is make you not have a good time.

So, I guess I'm gonna say bad, bad, but I also like I'm surprised that I didn't absolutely hate this after being sort of prepped to by the world.

What do you think, Stuart?

Yeah, I mean, I would, I would say this falls into the bad, bad category for me.

It is obviously

it is professionally made, uh, a lot of talented people worked on it, it's well acted, um, But

it is like a big mess.

And it's, in a way, it's like so self-referential.

I find it to be more interesting than the first Joker, which felt Joker one, which felt very direct, very specific, like such a like a simple, straightforward

kind of piece of trash.

And this, and this one is like kind of reflecting on it, but

I just, it doesn't, it ultimately, maybe it has stuff to say, but I, I don't like the way it's going about it.

Guys, this may shock and

terrify you, but I'm going to say the first half of this movie, except for that cartoon opening, I would call a bad, bad movie.

But once it gets further into the trial, I guess, at times it becomes a movie I kind of like.

It doesn't sustain that.

I don't like the ending,

but I do like that.

Maybe it's because I disliked the first movie so much that this

was operating on that curve.

But there are times when I was like, some of these musical numbers I really like.

And there is one genuinely emotional scene, the one we were talking about between him and Puddles.

And

the acting is all really good.

The production is all really good.

I think that first really monotonous, repetitive hour of the movie hurts it a lot.

But I think after that,

it's starting to become a movie I kind of like.

And I stand by my statement that there is a good 20-minute movie kind of buried in this, or maybe even a good hour and a half movie or hour and 15-minute movie buried inside of it.

But it spends so much time wallowing in its own

despair and its own pleasantness and grimness that I don't really like it.

But there are parts of it that I kind of like.

So that's why it's a kind of like rating.

But that's also partly because I dislike the first one so much.

That if this is like, it's one of those things where it's like, Joker fans, if you really like that first movie, then anything that is an attack, like a direct rebuttal to that, I'm probably going to like a little bit because my tastes are the exact opposite of it.

Yeah, it's like Joker One fans, this is what it's like to have enjoyed The Last Jedi and then watch what

Rise of Switzerland Skywalkers.

I can't remember the fucking thing.

Well, I wonder if, and there's part of me, I also wonder, like, see so much of how you feel when you see movies affected by where you are in your life when you see that movie.

Like, clearly, Taxi Driver is a much better movie than Joker.

Like, it clearly is.

But when I saw that as a young man, when I felt very alienated and very disaffected and very lonely, that movie spoke to me in a way that now I find very uncomfortable.

That it spoke to me that way, because it's clearly about a person who's driven to madness.

And there's a reason why other people keep him at arm's length.

And this primary wonders, if when I was 14, if Joker came out, maybe I would have been like, Yeah, I get it.

Like, I'm unhappy all the time, too.

So, yeah.

And then I would have seen Joker follow you do and I would have been like, what?

Huh?

What?

Hold on a second.

When's he going to find that?

Huh?

What?

When's he going to beat Robin to death with a crowbar?

That's cool stuff.

This isn't cool.

Joker did that?

I mean,

somebody should lock that guy up.

You know what?

They should kill that guy, Stuart.

I don't care what Batman says.

At this point, his death toll is in the thousands.

They should kill that man.

They should execute him, you know?

Yeah, I mean, I try to kill him every time I play Injustice, the video game, and my opponent selects the Joker, which I feel like is weird that the Joker and Superman can fight fight it out in Mortal Kombat style.

That's true.

You know, games are games, you know?

You would think Joker would last about a second in that fight, except that Superman won't kill.

Joker will.

Hello?

Hannah?

Yeah.

It's Clint McElroy.

Hi, Hannah Rugg.

Oh, my God.

Hello.

I don't know if you know who I am.

I do.

I love the Adventure Zone.

It is probably my favorite D ⁇ D podcast.

You've been a faithful member of Maximum Fund since March of 2019, and this is them

rewarding you as our Maximum Fund member of the month.

It's awesome.

I love it.

So what made you decide to become a member of Max Fun?

You know, it was so long ago.

I'm not sure what the exact moment where I decided was.

I think I've kept it up intentionally because a lot of those different podcasts have been there for me when I felt really alone and sad and just needed something to laugh at.

Oh, well, that's Hannah.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for being a member.

Thanks for being a TAS fan.

Thanks for all the nice things you had to say about me specifically.

And I guess my kids.

I guess

if you're a Max Fun member, you can become the next Max Fun member of the month.

Support us at maximumfund.org slash join.

Jackie Cation.

Hi, and welcome to the maximumfund.org podcast, the Jackie and Lori Show, where we talk about stand-up comedy and how much we love it and how much it enrages us.

We have a lot of experience and a lot of stories and a lot of time on our hands.

So check us out.

It's one hour a week, and we drop it every Wednesday on maximumfun.org.

Let's take a moment to thank our sponsors.

This week, those sponsorships.

Look at our sponsors, Joker.

Oh, no.

No, the first sponsor is Squarespace, who

supported this episode.

They're the all-in-one.

Well, they're sponsored.

The episode was sponsored in part by tried to retrofit into that sentence construction.

Didn't really.

Sure, sure, sure.

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

If you're wondering what it is,

say you're the Joker and you need a website.

You go to Squarespace.

That's how you do it.

Dan, that was seamless, the way you tied that into our episode.

It's a platform for entrepreneurs to stand out and succeed online.

You can use it to build a beautiful, more personalized website that's tailored to your unique needs and craft a bespoke digital identity that you can use across one's entire online presence.

One's entire online presence.

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Build a visitor trust while updating content only where you need it, extending your brand's footprint.

So, if you're in the market for a way to make a website, make it easy on yourself, make it snappy, make it look good, go to squarespace.com for a free trial.

And when you are ready to launch, go to squarespace.com slash flop to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain.

Also,

this podcast is sponsored in part by Rocket Money.

Rocket Money,

the exciting sounding service that helps you keep track of your,

you know, your budget, where your money's going.

The start of a new year is the perfect time to get organized, set goals, prioritize what matters most if one of those priorities is financial wellness.

Well, my friend, Rocket Money can help make your goals achievable.

It's a personal finance app that helps find and cancel your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending, and helps lower your bills so you can grow your savings.

You can easily create a personalized budget with custom categories to help keep your spending on track.

See your monthly spending trends in each category to see where your money is going.

If you're like me and, you know, I don't recommend it, but if you are, you probably are subscribed to a bunch of stuff you don't even know you're subscribed to.

Every once in a while, you got to go in, you got to purge, you don't even know whether you're getting it all.

Rocket Money can help you with that sort of thing.

It has over 5 million users and has saved a total of 500 million in canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740 a year when using all of the app's premium features.

So, cancel your unrunded subscriptions and reach your financial goals faster with Rocket Money.

Go to rocketmoney.com slash flop today.

That's rocketmoney.com slash flop.

Rocketmoney.com slash flop.

We've also got some jumbotrons and here's

Here's one of them.

Hey floppers, y'all are nerds and stuff, right?

Some of you probably run a WordPress site or develop on WordPress, and some of you probably know about GravityForms.

This is for you.

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So are you a word presser?

Check out Gravity Kit.

So

visit gravitykit.com slash flop.

That's gravitykit.com slash flop to save 50% off on Gravity Forms add-ons.

We've got a personal Jumbotron as well.

This is is a message for Denise and the message comes from Brendan and it says a very happy burbth day.

I don't know if it's a typo or an in-joke so I'll just spell it out.

B-E-R-B-T-H-D-A-Y.

A very happy birthday.

You are a social justice trailblazer, an incomparable dog parent, and the love of my life.

Here's to a new year of silliness, spontaneity, and good bad movies.

And of course, lethal dergs.

Sonic beggy hands and jumps abound from Rufio, Cassidy, and me.

Your burb.

Love, Brendan.

So I think Burb earlier was on purpose.

That was a very sweet message from a Burb.

I should mention, before we leave the promos section of this podcast, did I mention that I'm writing Harley Quinn for DC Comics and in comic stores now?

No, tell me about it.

Tell me about it.

Anyway, it's just, it's really fun.

I'm writing a whole run on Harley Quinn, the DC Comics series, and it's in comic stores now.

If you like me, please.

Is it like the movie we we just watched?

It's actually nothing like the movie we just watched.

It's a much more traditional take on Harley Quinn.

Let's say that.

In that it is fun and funny, and she's a wild character with her own rules that she plays by.

But I should also mention, we are coming to the end of Flop TV Season 2.

Everybody, it has been a great time.

We have one more episode left, which is February 1st, the first Saturday in February.

We saved the one, I don't know if I'll say the best, but certainly the one that meant the most to me as a kid for last: Ninja Turtles 2, The Secret of the Ooze.

That's right.

The debut of the hit song Ninja Rap.

That movie itself.

Dan, I think you said you've never seen it.

I've never seen it.

I don't know how.

I've seen the first, I've seen the third.

I've not seen Secret of the Ooze.

Well, strap on those Samurai swords, buddy, because you're in for a wild ride.

You are.

That's the Flop TV season finale on February 1st at 6 p.m.

Eastern.

Sorry, 9 p.m.

Eastern, 6 p.m.

Pacific.

Go to theflophouse.simpleticks.com for tickets.

If you haven't already bought any tickets to these shows, they're super fun.

They've been going great.

We had a great time talking about Ski School 2 on the last one.

And if you haven't watched any of them, you can still see the recorded videos from all the shows.

If you get a season pass, which is six shows for the price of five, you get access to all the videos of the previous episodes, and those will stay up through the end of February, right?

So even if even if you don't,

even if you aren't able to catch us on February 1st, you can still catch those episodes and it'll be really fun.

It's all sequels this season.

We did RoboCup 2, Breakin' 2, Caddyshack 2, Highlander 2, Ski School 2, and now Ninja Turtles 2.

It's been really fun, guys.

And there's only one episode left.

Yeah.

And if it's, and if, if, you know, if enough people like it, maybe we'll do a third season.

I want to say

I'm doing the presentation for this one.

And I know I say a lot of the time, oh, I'm excited about this.

I'm excited about this.

It's just because I realized, you know, like the fun thing about the presentations for me, sure, like, look, I love making everyone out there in flopland laugh.

But mostly when I'm writing them, I'm thinking about whether I'm going to make Elliott and Stewart laugh.

And that's a recipe for a good time writing these things.

I got very silly, and I'm looking forward to doing it.

That's good.

That was certainly my thinking when I did my video for the last episode where I taught everybody some common skiing terms that they should know the meanings of.

Really informative, yeah.

Yeah, so that's Flop TV season two.

One more episode left february 1st go to theflophouse dot simpleticks.com thank you let us uh answer a couple of letters from

damn lettuce can't answer questions

it's a vegetable all right oh in that case cabbage

some letters from

This letter is from Finn, last name withheld, who writes, hey, floppers, I was recently talking with my mom.

that's a subtle hit that this person is from the UK, I believe.

My mom, Liz, not a mummy, uh, could be too, yeah, and her best friend of 50 years, Laura.

They were telling me about is that also a British thing that best friends of 50 years are named Laura?

Yeah, that's uh, yeah-huh.

Well, the next thing is certainly a British thing, taking a trip to Italy.

They were telling me about the trip they took to Italy.

I'm thinking of the movie Trip to Italy starring

famous asshole Steve Coogan.

Joker 2's, yeah, Steve Coogan.

Anyway, this is a...

Joker 2's, yeah.

I'm like second sentence in on this thing.

They're telling me about the trip they took to Italy in 2001 and mentioned they'd spent some time

staying with

Laura's aunt Helen, an actress who lived in Rome.

This triggered something in my brain and I asked if Helen's last name was Sterling.

Laura said that it was.

Then I had the great pleasure of saying, Have you ever heard of a movie she made called Castle Freak?

Wow.

Laura had never heard of it, so I pulled it up on Shudder and the three of us watched the opening sequence.

When the camera first cuts to the face of the Duchess Dorsino, Laura said, that's her.

That's Auntie Helen.

And as the Duchess was whipping her deformed son with a cat and nine tails, Laura started cackling and saying, oh, Auntie Helen would have loved making this.

When Helen's character died at the end of the scene, I turned the movie off and Laura made me teach her how to start a Shudder account so she could show her daughter this previously unknown footage of a beloved family member.

Yet another beautiful family moment, courtesy of your podcast, and the cinema of Stuart Gordon.

Keep it floppy, just like Giorgio's very much attached, ding-dong, band last name withheld.

Oh, New Zealand.

New Zealand.

New Zealand.

New Zealand.

But that's why you read the whole letter first.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I did neglect to read that part.

That is so sweet.

That's such a

sweet thing to be like, hey, here's your aunt whipping her to form a son.

And I hope they did not watch the rest of the movie after that because she's not in it and it's only

they signed up for a shutter account.

So the whole movie, they can watch it whenever they want, along with Psycho Gorman, other

good reasons to watch the rest of the movie.

Yeah, there's plenty of good reasons.

Anyway, that was Jeffrey Combs and Barbara Crampton's Insane Chemistry.

Yeah.

I was very charmed by that.

That is very charming.

And we have a second letter here.

It is from James, last name withheld, who writes, Dear Peaches, recently I found myself enjoying walks, having an afternoon cup of tea, getting excited about birds in my yard, and listening to Steely Dan.

My question for you is, is this what middle age is?

And I have to say that in my experience, yeah, pretty much.

Also, middle age.

I do only have one Steely Dan album that I listen to very infrequently, but that is more than my youth when I would make fun of the very idea of Steely Dan being anything anyone will want to listen to.

Which is ironic since they called you Steely Dan when you were still shoplifting for a living.

That was after the dildo that the band was named after.

I thought it was after the band.

I didn't realize it was after the same sex.

Went back to the original section.

Yeah,

Dan looks a lot like that metal dildo.

I feel like I have, yeah, in my middle age, I do enjoy walks much more than I did before and birds.

And birds, men.

I'm still holding the line against Steely Dan.

Maybe I'll break.

have you guys ever like walked and stood at the edge of a pond and just looked across the expanse of water for a little while yeah or done one of those really wonderful to me yeah it's pretty good

then maybe then after a long walk have you ever like had a good sit oh yeah love again

what about like a cold glass of water oh

wild man delicious

Well, I guess this is our next podcast.

Yep.

I mean, this kind of

have have you guys, have you guys ever smelled fresh baked bread?

I've baked it.

I mean, I feel like it's more we're doing the podcast of Joe Para talks to you at this point.

Yeah.

That's great.

If only.

Well, those were letters.

Have you guys ever given a hug to somebody that means a lot to you?

Yeah, probably not enough.

I mean, that I did before I was in middle age also.

It does

more now.

It hits you now.

It does hit you different.

That's true.

Have you guys ever looked at your kids and been like, let me memorize this moment because I know they're going to grow up so fast and they're not going to be this age forever?

Do they cats cat?

Yeah, they're not.

Cats don't muscles in meatball every time I look them in the eyes.

I mean, I do think about occasionally drive myself to tears thinking these cats won't be around forever.

And then I'm like, why am I thinking this?

Stop it, Dan.

Yeah, you're not helping your day.

Yeah, that's not helping at all.

Yeah.

Take another edible, Dan.

Calm down.

and he's like, But brain, I've had seven already.

Um,

okay, well, let us move on to recommendations.

Let us move on, Dan.

It's a vegetable, okay.

Let's

move on to recommendations.

That's why Cats in the Cradle is called that, Dan, because cats are your children.

That changes the whole movie, just the whole song.

If he's singing about his cats the whole time, yeah,

meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, dad, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, meow, dad.

Yeah, oh man, it takes me back.

Well, I fed my cats just the other day.

Uh-huh, yeah.

Keep it going.

Let's

go, I know enough about cats.

Recommend.

You know, they lick themselves, et cetera.

They lick themselves in the very same way.

Let's recommend movies that may be a more rewarding way to spend your time, particularly since the

Joker 2 is so long.

I'm going to kick us off and

in honor of Elliott, I will honor him in the smallest way because the poor man is so stressed by

recent life events

on the coast.

I will honor him in the smallest way by recommending.

Don't recommend Backdraft, Dan.

That would be super insensitive.

That would be very taxing.

A 1930s movie.

Oh.

I recently watched 30 Day Princess from 1934.

a movie that is on Criterion channel right now.

It is part of the uh love in disguise collection uh that's disguised love in the skies like not the sky not disguise

um

you know you got stuff like the lady eve there you know the major and the minor there's deception in a love story um

but

this is why you were texting me about sylvia sydney

you put the mr policeman i gave you all the clues and unlike uh harry hula it took a long time to put those clues together you did it right away um

no i put this on because of Carrie Grant being in it.

And I saw the screenplay was co-written by Preston Sturgis, and it's a 70-minute movie.

And I was like, okay,

you're winning me over.

But really,

the headline here is Sylvia Sidney, who I, you know, had seen, I realized later on, you know, I had seen her early in her career and a couple of things,

Fury, Sabotage, but

didn't put her together with the woman that I, you know, like the parts I knew her best from, Juno and Betelgeuse, the grandmother and Mars Attacks, you know, at sort of towards the end of her career when she was a much older woman.

But here as a very young actress, she's sparkling, she's very funny, she didn't get a chance to do comedy a lot, I understand, but she's great here in a dual role as

a princess and as a sort of brassy dame who's an actress who's hired to

pretend to be a princess.

And it never hits like kind of the screwball pitch that maybe I would want for it to be like super funny, but it was definitely a charmer of a movie.

And I enjoyed it.

So 30-day princess.

Stewart.

That sounds good.

I'm going to watch it.

I'm going to watch that when I get back to my home.

I'm going to recommend a movie that just came out on Christmas Day.

It's pretty scary.

It's called Baby Girl.

Just kidding.

It's not scary at all.

It's supernatural and just doing what your body wants.

It's supernatural.

Yeah, it is supernatural.

Super space natural or super compound word natural?

Baby girl stars Nicole Kidman.

Wait, she's a bad person.

Let's just

defines baby girl ass.

Baby girl and kid man are.

It's very funny that Kid Man stars in baby girl.

Yeah, it makes a lot of sense now.

Well,

we'll get to some more of these.

So Nicole Kidman plays a high-powered executive who's got a family and a long, what, 19-year marriage.

And she starts up an affair with a young intern at her job played by Harris Dickinson.

No jokes there.

No jokes about Dickinson.

Okay.

Okay.

Perfectly normal.

Okay.

I don't understand even where you would start making a joke about a name like that.

Okay.

So

and the it is a like it is an erotic thriller that plays with power and control and uh how Nicole Kidman's character is like kind of secretly longing for a loss of control or giving herself over to someone else's power.

And

it ends up like it's a movie about like yearning and wants, specifically like wants that you have trouble voicing or you're embarrassed by.

And I found it to be really well done and sexy and

funny.

And yeah, it was a good time of the movies, you know.

Take two parents.

I've been wanting to see that.

I have a digital screener through the guild and have not been able to make time yet.

It's got Tony B in it, Antonio Banderas.

I love Tony B.

Yeah, Tony B.

So do you think Tony Billionaire?

Tony Billionaire, famed cartoonist?

Yeah, yeah, the artists are sock bunky.

Yeah, sure.

Sorry, body.

Drinky Bro.

I think

I may have made a mistake in introducing my younger son to

Tony Millihaner's work.

He did these books called...

Why am I forgetting the names of them now?

He did these two books about a character where mice make a character out of trash and a little girl kind of becomes his friend.

And

he's like, oh, Billy Hazelnuts.

That's what it's called.

So it's like, he's always like, let's read Billie Hazelnuts again.

And I'm like, but we're not looking at any other Tony Millionaire stuff, right?

Because I think you're ready for it.

I have a movie I'd also like to recommend.

And then we'll put this episode to bed, shall we?

Yeah.

I recently watched a movie I liked a lot.

It was a Japanese movie from 1959.

It's called Good Morning.

Is it from Yasujiro Ozu?

Yes, it is, one of the masters of Japanese film.

You can tell because his movies, a lot of them have titles that are just a time of year or a time of day and are very hard to keep track of.

I believe I recommended his movie Early Autumn at one point already, but it might have been late summer.

I don't remember.

But Good Morning is a, it's kind of a, it's a short little slice of life movie about the people who live in a very small neighborhood.

And the main, if you can call it the main story, is these two brothers who want a television.

They really want their parents to get them a TV, so they decide they will not talk until they get a TV.

And this has causes problems for them.

It causes problems for their parents.

But there's a couple other kind of small subplots that are running throughout the neighborhood at the same time.

And ultimately, it's kind of a movie about how important the little things that people say to each other, good morning, how are you?

The things that to a kid seem pointless or boring, how important those things are in just keeping people close together and connecting people.

And I thought it was a really beautiful movie, but at the same time, there's a bunch of fart jokes in it.

The kids have, have, they have a trick that they like to pull with their friend where they tap each other on the forehead and then fart afterwards.

So, so I was like, this movie, this is a really sweet little movie, but it's also got fart jokes in it.

So, how can you go wrong?

It's called Good Morning from 1959.

Well, guys,

you know, it was good to see y'all.

I am glad, Elliot, you were able to join us.

We weren't sure if it was going to happen.

And I'm glad that this is

actually,

as you said, a respite for you from things rather than another horrible thing to deal with.

I'm glad you are all well over there.

Yeah, me too.

I feel that way too.

Thank you, Stuart.

Thank you.

From Dan, it sounded insincere, but from you, it had real hope.

And I would like to thank our network, Maximum Fun.

Please check out the other shows on the network.

I'm sure you'll like at least a couple.

They're all good shows.

I don't know people's tastes.

I don't want to overpromise.

I'd like to under-promise and over-deliver.

Fair point.

Fair point.

Fair point.

Yeah.

And thank you to Alex Smith, our intrepid producer.

He goes by the name Howell Dotty

on various socials.

You can listen to his music.

You can watch his Twitch streams.

He does a lot of great work.

under his own auspices.

Yeah, Best in the Biz, that guy.

We went out for a little holiday meal down in Naptown, Indianapolis, where we were at a a bar and some women offered us free Justin Timberlake tickets.

And I got to say, we considered it.

So that's a show of how great Alex is.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's a sort of magic thing.

They didn't offer them to me.

They offered them to Alex.

Unless maybe they were too intimidated to offer them to me.

Yeah,

it does happen.

It'd be.

Anyway,

thank you, as always, for listening.

For the Flophouse, I've been Dan McCoy.

And I've been Stuart Wellington.

And I've been Elliot Kalen saying, if your wallet happens to be as full as your heart, please do reach out and help the people affected by the fires in Los Angeles.

Thank you for listening and thank you for being there for us.

Bye.

Bye.

Hey, Stewie,

this is your brother Huey.

You want to hear this song I made?

Listen to this.

Right?

That's how it goes in Back in the Future.

Yeah, he's like, hey, Alvin,

it's your cousin, Leroy Chipmunk.

You want to know that new sound?

You want to hear it?

Listen to this.

Christmas time is here, my guys.

I mean, I guess it's called Alvin and the Chipmunks because it's like, you know, Paul Revere and the Raiders or whatever.

But like, Alvin's also a chipmunk, you know?

Yeah.

Yeah.

It should be Dave and the Chipmunks.

It should be Dave Saville and the Chipmunks.

Yeah.

Anyway.

Dave's such a fucking dork.

He is.

I mean, that's his part.

He's like fucking John Arbuckle.

He's defined by his pets rather than by anything he does.

Like Jane Goodall, yeah.

A lot.

Thank you.

Somebody had to take her down.

You take the chips away.

Take the chips away.

What do you got?

What do you got?

That imposter.

Okay.

No one else is brave enough to say it.

I'll just say it.

Without David Graybeard, Jane Goodall's got nothing, you know?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

What's she going to do?

Find the cure for cancer and lose it?

I don't think so.

It's been done before.

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