The Girlfriends S2/Bonus 1 - The Girlfriends’ Guide to: Identifying a Doe

This is an iHeart podcast.

On Fox One, you can stream your favorite news, sports, and entertainment live, all in one app.

It's fing roll and unfiltered.

This is the best thing ever.

Watch breaking news as it breaks.

Breaking tonight, we're following two major stories.

And catch history in the making.

Gibby, meet Freddy.

Debates,

drama, touchdowns.

It's all here, baby.

Fox One.

We live for live.

Streaming now.

Stop settling for weak sound.

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom.

Hit the town with the ultra-durable LG X-Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it.

The future of sound is now with LG X Boom.

And for a limited time, save 25% at LG.com with code FALL25.

Bring a boom.

X-Boom.

Time for a sofa upgrade?

Visit washable sofas.com and discover Anibay, where designer style meets budget-friendly prices, with sofas starting at $699.

Anibay brings you the ultimate in furniture innovation with a modular design that allows you to rearrange your space effortlessly.

Perfect for both small and large spaces, Anibay is the only machine-washable sofa inside and out.

Say goodbye to stains and messes with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics that make cleaning easy.

Liquid simply slides right off.

Designed for custom comfort, our high-resilience foam lets you choose between a sink-in feel or a supportive memory foam blend.

Plus, our pet-friendly stain-resistant fabrics ensure your sofa stays beautiful for years.

Don't compromise quality for price.

Visit washablefas.com to upgrade your living space today with no risk returns and a 30-day money-back guarantee.

Get up to 60% off plus free shipping and free returns.

Shop now at washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

The wait is over.

The next up live music finals are here.

On September 26th, TikTok Live and iHeartRadio bring you the biggest night in live music discovery.

Streaming live from the legendary iHeartRadio Theater in LA.

The top 12 artists hit the stage for one career-defining performance.

The judges will crown the winner and you'll help choose the People's Choice Award.

Don't miss it.

September 26th, 7 to 9 p.m.

Pacific.

Follow at TikTok Live underscore US and watch it all go down.

Only on TikTok Live.

Novel.

Hello, I'm Anna Sinfield, the producer of The Girlfriends, and I'm here taking over the mic because I wanted to do something that's very close to my heart and the philosophy of the show.

When we set out to make the girlfriends, I insisted on providing concrete resources for any listeners who may relate to the hard topics that we cover.

It's why we always partner with relevant charities, so if you're triggered or inspired by something we've mentioned, you've got somewhere legitimate to go for advice.

But I've also done a lot of behind-the-scenes work to make sure that we actually know what we're talking about.

You know, from boots on the ground reporting, intensive investigations, and countless conversations with experts.

You probably only hear about 1% of the things that I get to learn during the production of the podcast and I wanted to pass some of it on.

So let me introduce you to The Girlfriend's Guide, a mini-series where I lay out how you can solve crimes and keep your girlfriend safe.

We'll dive back into our archive of never-heard-before interviews, break down real-life case studies, and give tangible tips on how you can do it yourself.

Oh, and just a quick heads up: we'll be discussing murder and acts of violence in this episode.

From the Teams at Novel and iHeart podcasts, you're listening to The Girlfriend's Guide, episode 1: How to Identify a Doe.

I feel like I need to say something before we kick off.

It's not normal for an everyday person to attempt to identify a doe.

But lately, I've noticed that more and more citizen sleuths are plugging the gaps left behind by law enforcement's dwindling resources, or, let's face it, lack of interest.

It is estimated that 4,400 unidentified bodies are found each year in the United States, and around 1,000 of those people are still unidentified a year later.

Which means, sadly, cases build up and get forgotten.

Today, there are over 14,000 unidentified bodies on Namos, which is the US database for missing and unidentified people.

Giving someone back their name is important.

We spoke about that a lot on the Girlfriends.

But before we get stuck in, I want to ask you to act with caution.

Identifying someone who's been resigned to a cold case is obviously a very caring and hard thing to do when you don't know who they are.

But the fact is, someone does.

At some point along the way, you might be tempted to contact their family and friends to help connect the dots.

For you, this may have become a challenge to be solved, but every new hope or reminder can be devastating for the people on the other side.

So tread lightly on people's lives.

Something you need to ask yourself is, why am I doing this?

And that is a really complex ethical question.

Ultimately, you just have to be considerate.

Think about if it's appropriate to approach victims' families and also then how you would do it.

Instead, I'd recommend approaching the authorities first, so they can help you prove the connection before the family is informed.

All right.

Ethics briefly covered, let's get to it.

So, if you do find yourself interested in a case involving an unidentified person, what do you do?

And how do you identify them?

Let's use an example that I've come to know really well, the case of Heidi Bulch from season two of The Girlfriends.

If you listen to the series, then you know that Heidi was identified 24 years after her remains were discovered.

But for a long time, the detectives really only had the information from the initial police reports to go off, which reads like some sort of murder mystery novel.

Here is my Canadian friend pretending to be an American detective, reading a summation of the police report.

March 1989.

Two golfers discover a woman's head on a golf course in Hopewell Township, New Jersey, 65 miles down from New York.

A short while later, her legs were discovered in a wooded area 65 miles away.

A post-mortem confirms that she was white, blonde hair, blue eyes, and matching blue eyeshadow on.

She has a couple of distinctive features, including a mole and scars.

Her estimated age is around 20 to 30.

The legs are officially linked to the head via DNA analysis.

No arms or torso are found.

In the first few weeks of the investigation into what would one day be known as Heidi's remains, the detectives tried everything.

They put out nationwide requests asking for information on any missing person that would fit her description.

They made flyers, they held press conferences, interviewed families of people who thought the remains could belong to their loved one.

Those were the textbook things that detectives would do back in the 80s when working on a live case with an unidentified body and an unknown killer.

But none of it worked, and eventually the case went cold.

By the time the case was reopened in the 2010s, there were new options available, and that is when things really started to heat up.

An incredibly useful new resource available to the investigators was the National Missing and Unidentified Persons System, aka Namus, in the States.

Me and my assistant producer Maddie use this a lot on the Girlfriends,

and Maddie is brilliantly, wonderfully here joining me to explain how you can also use Namos to help with the dough case.

So, hey Maddie.

Hello Nana, thanks for having me.

Tell me about Namos.

What actually is it first of all?

So Namos is this amazingly vast database in the US which includes the profiles of every currently reported missing person and also every unidentified body.

What's great about Namos is that it's used by government agencies like the police and detectives, but also anyone can access it.

So if you are looking to identify your own dough, this is an incredibly useful resource for you too.

So what does it actually look like as a normal civilian just accessing this online?

What do you see?

What you're going to see is thousands and thousands of profiles listed under missing people or on the unidentified bodies section.

It's basically a way of cataloguing the profiles of every single one of these people.

And so you kind of would search via location, age, that sort of thing?

Yeah, that's right.

There's actually lots of different things you can search by.

Date that people went missing, date that body was found, estimated age, race, gender.

So any small details that you do have about your dough are something that you can enter on there.

And I think the idea is that every single unidentified case, every single missing person's case is meant to be listed.

Are there any instances when that doesn't happen?

Theoretically, no.

Every missing person who has been reported as missing will be on there, and every unidentified doe will be on there.

An exception to this, and it's something that actually happened in the girlfriend season two,

when we were looking for our doe, we couldn't find a matching profile on Namos.

And this really confused us for a while, but it was actually a massive clue.

Basically, if someone's not listed on there, it probably means that they have been identified.

I know, I wish we knew that much, much earlier on.

Yeah, we definitely thought maybe we were going crazy and not searching it well enough.

But no, that's another clue that you can definitely include in your investigation.

And so, you've got things like this government resource, Namus, but there's also other databases for missing people and unidentified people, aren't there?

Yeah, there are.

There are a bunch of independent volunteer-run projects like the DOE Network that we partnered with, the Charlie project.

There's also databases that focus on more specific groups of people like LGBTQ plus databases.

There's one for people of colour.

And these have really been set up, I think, in response to some of the inaction that comes from government agencies to serve a specific group which maybe hasn't got the attention that they deserve from government resources.

Also, in some cases, just not having the expertise from the communities involved to identify things that could be clear clues.

Yeah, totally.

Like someone's sexual orientation might not be listed on their name as missing profile, but that's something that could lead to other clues about who they were.

But what if you can't find the Doe's information on these databases, just like us?

Or you think there might be more information out there.

Or perhaps you think you know who it could be and you want to request extra information on their case.

Well, that's when you can deploy every journalist's favorite tool, the Freedom of Information Act request.

After the break, we'll tell you all about how to access information from the authorities that just might solve your case.

Stop settling for weak sound.

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom.

Hit the town with the ultra-durable LG X-Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it.

The future of sound is now with LG X-Boom.

And for a limited time, save 25% at lg.com with code FALL25.

Bring the boom.

X-Boom.

Let's be real.

Life happens.

Kids spill.

Pets shed.

And accidents are inevitable.

Find a sofa that can keep up at washable sofas.com.

Starting at just $699, our sofas are fully machine washable inside and out.

So you can say goodbye to stains and hello to worry-free living.

Made with liquid and stain-resistant fabrics.

They're kid-proof, pet-friendly, and built for everyday life.

Plus, changeable fabric covers let you refresh your sofa whenever you want.

Neat flexibility?

Our modular design lets you rearrange your sofa anytime to fit your space, whether it's a growing family room or a cozy apartment.

Plus, they're earth-friendly and trusted by over 200,000 happy customers.

It's time to upgrade to a stress-free, mess-proof sofa.

Visit washablefas.com today and save.

That's washable sofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Over 300 channels, zero bills.

That's Teebo Plus.

Live news, reality, movies, and more.

No credit card, no sign-ups.

Available on smart TVs powered by Teebo.

Grab the remote, press play, and start watching.

Teebo Plus.

Free, binge-worthy, always on.

Learn more at Teebo.com.

There's a lot going on in Hollywood.

How are you supposed to stay on top of it all?

Variety has the solution.

Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co-editor-in-chief Cynthia Littleton.

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety, and listen now.

5th of December 2022.

Hi there!

I'm a journalist from the UK and I'm wondering if you might be able to help me find out some information about a body that was discovered in 1980.

4th of January 2023.

Hi!

Hope you've had a lovely holidays and a happy new year.

I'm just wondering if you've got anywhere with tracking down those records.

9th of January 2024.

Dear d ⁇ ,

happy new year again.

I'm writing to let you know that it has now been over a year since my initial request was sent to you on the 5th of December 2022, and we are yet to receive any progress at all on these records.

Nothing's worked.

We've always

getting really annoyed at the medical examiners for not responding to your Freedom of Information Act request.

It's fair to say you've filed a lot and also you've had to deal with being disappointed a lot.

How many times do you think you've done a FOIA request for the girlfriends alone?

Yeah, that really was the tip of the iceberg.

I think, from my calculations in total, I filed about 44 freedom of information requests, and some of those were obviously the medical examiner, but then a lot of them were the NYPD,

various courts, the district attorney, basically anyone I could think of that might have information.

It was amazing.

We got so much information based off these FOIA requests.

I mean, I don't think we would have solved this case if it wasn't for all of your FOIAs.

So you like really saved the day there.

Oh, thanks, Anna.

That makes me feel better about the hours I've sunk into this.

And the amount of moaning.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But I was thinking FOIA is something that's really standard kind of bread and butter stuff for us.

And it's something that a lot of people probably have heard of, but they maybe don't know what it actually is.

So could you break that down for the listeners?

Yeah, so FOIA stands for Freedom of Information Act.

Sometimes it's called FOIL as well and then it's Freedom of Information Law.

It's been in place since 1967 and it means that the public have a right to request access to records from any federal agency.

And those federal agencies have to disclose any information requested unless it falls under one of the nine exemptions, which protect things like personal information or obviously national security.

That's fair enough.

Yeah, it is fair enough.

It's described as a law that keeps citizens in the know about their governments.

In what context can that be useful in the identification of a DOE?

To put it really simply, when you're trying to identify someone, the more information you have about them, the more likely you are to figure out who they are.

And FOIL requests are a really good way of accessing more information that wouldn't be immediately available on the internet or elsewhere.

So specifically, there are some very useful things you could look for, like post-mortem records or medical examiner records in general could tell you more about how someone died and give other clues based on their estimated age or their medical records.

Police reports can also be really interesting.

We managed to access a trove of police files from the time that Heidi's body parts were found and she was being treated as a Jane Doe.

And you just never know what kind of clues you might get with something like that.

In those reports we found out that Heidi was wearing blue eyeshadow when she was found and this could be something that we could ask someone who knew her and they could confirm that that's something she always wore for example and it also allows you to see what investigating might have already been done by law enforcement so then you can pull together your information with theirs and

see which leads you could follow next.

This all sounds like obviously amazing in theory, but I think when I first started out as a journalist, the idea of doing a FOIA felt like a sort of mystical

beast and I wasn't quite sure how I should be approaching it.

So how do you literally file a FOIA request?

It depends a lot on the department that you're requesting information for.

But there often are forms on a website that are pretty straightforward and easy to follow, or an email.

If you're unsure, the best thing you can do is call up a records department at the institution you're trying to get information from and ask a nice person to talk you through it slowly as if you're very stupid, which is something that happened to me on multiple occasions.

And it's probably led to the success of us getting this information.

I think, like, the big takeaway that I want to make sure everyone has is that the point of FOIAs is that they are so that normal people can, as I think you said earlier, sort of like know what's happening in government.

And so I think what I'd really like to instill in people is that it isn't some sort of elitist exercise to file a FOIA.

It's something that in theory everybody should be able to do.

And it's your right to do.

It's your right, exactly.

Having said that, there are definitely some hurdles in getting information from FOIA requests.

A huge one is the time frame that they can take.

It it definitely varies by location and institution, but it can sometimes take six months just to get a response.

And also what you can access is obviously limited.

Often with medical examiners records, for example, the full post-mortem can only be accessed by a relative of the deceased person, which of course makes things really hard when you don't even know who the person is.

Whilst it's frustrating that there's a lot you can't access, it's for a really good reason.

But you just never never know what you're going to get back once you send a request, so it's always, always worth filing them just to see.

And the feeling of waiting six months to hear if you've got access to some records and then seeing something in your inbox is truly the greatest thrill I can imagine.

Yeah, but also, you know, we're talking about kind of sleuthing around online if you think that something's a live case or whatever.

I think there's a lot of sleuthing around online and in kind of archival resources that we do, things that kind of don't require foyers.

You know, the very specific example, bringing it back to Heidi, is that her case was actually eventually solved in part because the serial killer Joel Rifkin confessed to the murder in a book years later.

And so you never know when that stuff's going to appear or if it's already out there and you just need to kind of look for it.

And so we did a lot of that, didn't we?

We gleaned lots of information from articles and forums.

Maddie, do you have any tips for how people can use the web?

It definitely involves a lot of lurking around on random websites.

The first thing is: if it's a contemporary case, there'll probably be some articles about it online, and those will be easy to access.

If it's a bit older, you might want to search on an online newspaper database.

These are quite often behind paywalls, but most libraries tend to let you use theirs for free.

And then we looked in some really random places and found some quite useful information.

Forums can be good.

I remember we found a message on a forum from years ago of someone who said that they knew Heidi and were friends with her.

And that gave us some information about where we think Heidi lived.

But also, Reddit is amazing.

I love Reddit so much.

And

once we finished season one, we actually found a group of people on Reddit discussing who they thought the torso might be.

So it's a great way to pool your information with other people.

If you are looking into this case, there is a really good chance that someone else is, and teaming together is only going to give you more information and make your case stronger.

As you know, if you listen to our second season, when Joel Rifkin admitted to Heidi's murder, he named the doe as Susie.

And that meant that suddenly the detectives had something to cling on to.

So they started searching for missing persons reports and arrest reports for somebody called Susie.

Ultimately, this led them to finding a mug shot for a woman called Susan Spencer that looked very similar to their doe.

Maddie, that's a very convoluted way of going about this, but that's often the way when it comes to unidentified cases.

Are there any similar techniques that we could use to help identify a doe?

Yeah, definitely.

I think Namus, again, is really useful for this.

If you have an unidentified person,

there's a quite high likelihood that that person is missing from someone else.

And hopefully they will have reported them as missing.

So there should be a profile on Namus for that missing person.

And what you can do is take the information you have about your dough,

like when they were suspected to have died, how old they are, their gender, their race, and put those into a search of missing people and see if anyone matches, or it could be a possible candidate for your dough.

And you might not find just one person who's an exact match, but it might come up with a list of names that you can then work to rule out.

But you've got to be flexible as well, don't you?

And a bit like creative about it.

Because, you know, sometimes people

will have really changed since they were registered as a missing person, or they might have travelled to a state that the person who filed that missing person's report had no idea of, and stuff like that.

So, with all these searches, it could get you closer and it could give you ideas of who it could be.

But definitely take it with a pinch of salt and keep a very open mind.

And then, I guess, the next thing is that sometimes none of this works, right?

And that's something that happened to us when we were trying to identify the Jane Doe who ended up being Heidi from season one.

We kept reaching these dead ends.

And so, at one point, I went full obsessive journalists and I started looking into killers from the time to see if I could match the case of our Jane Doe, you know, how she was killed, her age, and see if it matched up with a killer's M.O.

At points in order to do this, I even had a phone call with the criminal profiler.

And actually what was kind of neat is I had that phone call with the criminal profiler.

They told me a bunch of stuff and then we received the Hopewell Police Report where they also had got the FBI to create a profile of the killer back in 1989.

And you got particularly into this, didn't you?

I found this fascinating.

Yeah.

They asked the FBI behavioural science unit to create a profile of the killer very early on in their investigation where they had so little to go on other than Heidi and the state that she was found in.

And what's really, really crazy about this, now knowing about Joel Rifkin and who he is the details are eerily close so some of the characteristics that they predicted this person would have they'd be a white male in their 20s or 30s single living alone they may have an occupation which involves travel like sales a truck driver or construction they're educated and this is the one that actually gives me chills They may not have killed before, but they will kill again.

Yeah, and I mean, obviously, we now know that Heidi was the first of what is predicted to have been 17 victims.

Yeah, it's true, but it's also a really interesting and useful way of looking at a case like this to turn your attention to when you've reached a dead end, trying to look at information about the victim to try and think if you can find the person who did it and if that would help you identify this person.

Do you have kind of any other tips when it comes to foyers and getting that sort of information from authorities or I guess even the web?

I would say my biggest tip is persistence.

It's not an easy and it's not a quick process and you will reach a lot of dead ends and rejections but it is so worth it for the small glimmers of information that you do get.

I would also say befriend people.

What you're coming up against is often a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of people who, even though your interest in this case is huge huge and finding out details is really important to you is just one of a million other things they're doing so if you can get a friend on the inside or someone who recognizes who you are and will help you that's also going to be really useful yeah and just always send that extra email to the medical examiners

Okay, so we're at the point in the investigation where you hopefully have a hunch as to who your doe might might be, like the Hopewell detectives when they discovered Susie Spencer's arrest report.

When you make that connection, like Maddie said, it is honestly one of the best and most exciting feelings in the world.

But what do you do now?

And how do you prove it?

That's after the break.

Stop settling for weak sound.

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom.

Hit the town with the ultra-durable LGX Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it.

The future of sound is now with LG X-Boom.

And for a limited time, save 25% at LG.com with code Fall25.

Bring the boom.

X-Boom.

There's nothing like sinking into luxury.

At washable sofas.com, you'll find the Anibay sofa, which combines ultimate comfort and design at an affordable price.

And get this, it's the only sofa that's fully machine washable from top to bottom, starting at only $699.

The stain-resistant performance fabric slip covers and cloud-like frame duvet can go straight into your wash.

Perfect for anyone with kids, pets, or anyone who loves an easy-to-clean, spotless sofa.

With a modular design and changeable slip covers, you can customize your sofa to fit any space and style.

Whether you need a single chair, love seat, or a luxuriously large sectional, Anabay has you covered.

Visit washablesofas.com to upgrade your home.

Right now, you can shop up to 60% off store-wide with a 30-day money-back guarantee.

Shop now at washablesofas.com.

Add a little

to your life.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

TiVo Plus gives you 300 plus channels of movies, shows, sports, even kids' favorites, all free.

And no, we don't want your credit card.

Watch live, watch on demand, watching your PJs eating pizza.

It's all right there on your TiBo home screen.

With so much variety from comedy and action to live news and family programming, you'll never run out of options.

TiBo Plus.

Free, binge-worthy, and always on.

Check us out at Tibo.com.

There's a lot going on in Hollywood.

How are you supposed to stay on top of it all?

Variety has the solution.

Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co-editor-in-chief Cynthia Littleton.

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Open your free iHeartRadio app, search Daily Variety, and listen now.

So, you think you know who your doe is, but proving it is an entirely different ballgame.

The first port of call is to contact the agency, like the police department, who's handling the doe case and the missing person's case, if there is one.

Maddie, how do you go about doing that?

The first thing to do would be look at Namos and see if there is a detective or an agency attached to the case.

And there should also hopefully be contact details.

Or you can just look at what jurisdiction your case should probably come under and then contact someone at the police station there.

A big tip for this is when you do it, try and get someone's name or someone that will check back in with you if there are any new developments.

Having a contact like that means that you'll probably be able to stay updated on the case and they're just more likely to help you.

So once you've spoken to the detectives in charge of the case, you do kind of need to leave it with them and hope that they look into it.

Detectives will then investigate it further and if they think it's viable, they can compare the DNA of the dough with a family member of the missing person.

This is actually what the Hopewell detectives did after they figured out that the arrest record they found of Susan Spencer was actually listed under a false name.

They instead matched up the mugshot with a missing person's photo of Heidi Bulch.

And then they tracked down Heidi's family and compared the family's DNA with the remains they found on the Hopewell golf course in 1989.

But there is another similar route that deploys the use of DNA, and that's called, complicatedly, genetic genealogy.

Maddie, what does that actually mean?

And how can you use it to identify a doe?

Put simply, genetic genealogy is the combination of genetic analysis, so looking at DNA, and the study of family trees, and then using pretty standard historical investigation to find out more about that.

Okay, so

if you were to kind of apply that to an actual situation, so say you found a doe, what would people then do to try and study that in a genetic genealogy sort of context?

So what you could do is take the DNA data from the dough and then enter it into a website like 23andMe or another one of those big genetic databases.

And then you can see if there's any matches.

Obviously, in a dream world, a perfect match of a parent would immediately appear, and then you could contact that person, maybe, and you'd have identified them.

But it could be a sibling, it could be a very distant relative.

But what it might do is start to build out a family tree, which you can then investigate through other resources and get closer and closer to identifying who this person is.

I mean, that sounds amazing, the idea that you can just put some DNA data in and then, you know, pop out comes a bunch of relatives and you whittle your way down into identifying the person.

Are there other benefits outside of that?

You must get a lot of information from DNA.

I think it can really help with narrowing down locations that they're from further.

It might help you identify their ancestral homeland.

I mean, the dream is that there are living relatives and that they're people happy to speak to you, or they're people who you could find out more about and then find out the identity of your dough.

I guess one of the big downsides is that you can only work with what's in the system, can't you?

It really relies on people having put their DNA data into the system in the first place so that there can be connections.

Yeah, that's right.

I think, like, so much of this research, it relies on community participation.

But there are a couple of other drawbacks too.

Another big one is concerns over privacy.

Not everyone feels comfortable uploading their DNA and for that information to be owned by another website.

Understandably.

There's also the testing isn't perfect.

The results can sometimes be a little misleading.

But one of the biggest drawbacks is the cost, actually.

At one point on series two, we considered extracting some DNA from Heidi's grave in Heart Island when we thought she was there.

And not only did the thought of that just seem kind of prohibitively gruesome, but also it's incredibly expensive.

And this is something I would say isn't necessarily accessible to just the average person trying to look into a case.

Yeah.

And it's also just something that's quite hard to do on your own, isn't it?

And so I guess like the one thing I would say there is if that is a route that you're wanting to go down, there are volunteers at charities that specialize in this that will genuinely be happy to help you out.

They can't take on every case, but people like DNA Doe do this every single day.

They're the charity that we partnered with and they're really great at responding to inquiries or just like perhaps giving you some advice.

So do reach out to them.

I hope our tips have been useful.

But the truth is, there is no one way to identify a doe.

Each new clue will open up a new rabbit hole to fall down and you've just got to dive in, Alice in Wonderland style.

Get obsessed with the necklace and finding out where it's from.

Fixate on the location the dough was discovered.

Spend weeks poring over small turns of phrases in news reports from the time.

When I was trying to solve our dough case from seasons one and two, I was deep in those kinds of rabbit holes for a year and a half.

At points, I had to accept for my own sanity that maybe I'd never know who she was.

Or perhaps I would, but I'd never be able to prove it and share her story with listeners like you.

It felt like it was only at the last moment when budgets were dwindling, faith was in crisis, about to put out a show with no resolution, that we actually found the definitive proof that we needed.

So my final piece of advice to you is to just have some faith.

Sometimes new evidence can emerge and change everything, like that confession from Joel Rifkin.

Sometimes one new contact contact will give you access to materials that you've been trying to get for years.

That's what happened for us.

So good luck.

Until next time, hold your girlfriends tight.

The Girlfriend's Guide is produced by Novel for iHeart Podcasts.

For more from Novel, visit novel.audio.

This episode is produced and hosted by me, Anna Sinfield.

Our assistant producer is Madeline Parr and we've had some fantastic additional production by Lee Meyer, Leona Hamid and Zayana Youssef.

Max O'Brien is our executive producer.

Production management from Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolfe.

Sound design, mixing and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander.

Music supervision by me, Anna Sinfield and Nicholas Alexander.

Original Original music composed and performed by Louisa Gerstein and produced by Louisa Gerstein, and you guessed it, Nicholas Alexander.

The series' artwork was designed by Christina Limcool.

Story development by me, Anna Sinfield.

Willard Foxton is creative director.

Our executive producers at iHeart are Katrina Norvell and Nikki Etor.

Special thanks to Ali Cantor, Carrie Lieberman and Will Pearson at iHeart Podcast, as well as Carly Frankel and the whole team at WME.

And special thanks to Daniel Laskarin for putting on your best detective voice.

Stop settling for weak sound.

It's time to level up your game and bring the boom.

Hit the town with the ultra-durable LG X-Boom portable speaker and enjoy vibrant sound wherever you go.

Elevate your listening experience to new heights because let's be real, your music deserves it.

The future of sound is now with LG X Boom.

And for a limited time, save 25% at lg.com with code FALL25.

Bring the boom.

X-Boom.

Tired of spills and stains on your sofa?

WashableSofas.com has your back, featuring the Anibay Collection, the only designer sofa that's machine-washable inside and out, where designer quality meets budget-friendly prices.

That's right, sofas started just $699.

Enjoy a no-risk experience with pet-friendly, stain-resistant, and changeable slip covers made with performance fabrics.

Experience cloud-like comfort with high-resilience foam that's hypoallergenic and never needs fluffing.

The sturdy steel frame ensures longevity and the modular pieces can be rearranged anytime.

Check out washable sofas.com and get up to 60% off your Anabay sofa, backed by a 30-day satisfaction guarantee.

If you're not absolutely in love, send it back for a full refund.

No return shipping or restocking fees.

Every penny back.

Upgrade now at washablesofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

Looking for entertainment everyone will love?

TiVo Plus has you covered with over 300 free channels.

From movies for Family Night to kids' shows, live news, sports, and your favorite TV series, all in one place.

No sign-ups, no credit card required.

Just turn on and enjoy.

And with new channels and fresh content added all the time, there's always something to watch.

TiVo Plus.

Free, binge-worthy, and always on.

Check us out at TiBo.com.

There's a lot going on in Hollywood.

How are you supposed to stay on top of it all?

Variety has the solution.

Take 20 minutes out of your day and listen to the new Daily Variety podcast for breaking entertainment news and expert perspectives.

Where do you see the business actually heading?

Featuring the iconic journalists of Variety and hosted by co-editor-in-chief Cynthia Littleton.

The only constant in Hollywood is change.

Open your free iHeart radio app, search Daily Variety, and listen now.

This is an iHeart podcast.