The Girlfriends S1/E9: A Sisterhood

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Novel

Hey listener, here we are at our final episode.

If you're concerned that you will miss our music, don't worry.

I want to let you know that we've released the Girlfriend soundtrack composed by Louisa Gerstein and featuring members of Deep Throat Choir.

You can listen now on Spotify and other streaming services.

You can also purchase the album by going to bandcamp.com and searching for the Girlfriend's podcast soundtrack.

All proceeds go to our charity partners at NoMore.

Now for the trigger warning.

In this episode, we talk about domestic violence, violence against women, and femicide.

And I'll warn you: the ending has had our production team in tears, so listen in public at your own risk.

But within all that, there's also stories of hope and recovery and a haven for those suffering.

And you guessed it, old Pottymouth is here swearing again.

Throughout this series, I told you you one story, the story of Bob and Gail.

But the sad fact is Gail's case is one of many.

According to the UN in 2021, on average, more than five women and girls were killed every hour by their husband, partner, or relative.

Now, perhaps murder feels a little unrelatable to you.

But before Bob was a murderer, he was an abusive and controlling partner.

And those stats are even more frightening.

The UN estimates that across our lifetimes, one in three women are subjected to physical or sexual violence.

This number hasn't really changed at all in the last decade.

Let's take this podcast as an example.

Over one-third of the women we interviewed for this story have alleged that they've been been impacted by gendered violence or emotional abuse.

And that's not including the abuse inflicted by Bob.

My first husband, he was emotionally abusive, not physically, but emotionally.

And I wish I had been stronger.

You

think if you do the right thing, it won't happen again.

Because you can't believe somebody who loves you is really going to hurt you.

And I said to my father, you know,

you're an abuser.

And he said, what are you talking about?

I never left a mark on her.

And I was like, wait, are you kidding me?

Is this really happening?

Because that's like a classic abuser line.

I was bent over the railing on the side of a boat in the ocean, nothing around us.

And I'm telling you, if I would have fallen in, it would have been curtains.

It's heartbreaking to me to hear all these incredible women describing the hurt they have suffered.

At times, it feels like there's nothing we can do about it.

Even Elaine, Gail's sister, battled with that feeling.

There's nothing that I could ever do to change the fact that Robert Baron Bahn killed my sister in July of 1985.

The question has always been, simply, what am I going to do with that?

So Elaine pivoted from her original passion of poverty and labor law to family law.

That means every day she helps vulnerable women and children escape bad marriages.

I do everything in my power to control and protect the lives and the well-being of my clients with a motivation that far exceeds what a professional motivation should be.

In 1996, Elaine started working as a consultant for the Pace Women's Justice Center in White Plains, Westchester County.

The The center offers free legal aid, advice, and services to vulnerable women who want to escape their abusive relationship, relationships like Gail and Bob's.

But Elaine never told her friends at the center about her sister.

Because I was in the closet.

They didn't know until it was on 1010 Winds, you know, Bob Bierenbaum indicted.

I'm driving home.

from the indictment and I'm realizing I better call all these people who think they're my best friends because they're finding out on the news that I had a sister and she was murdered by her husband.

When Elaine told her friends at the Women's Justice Center about Gail, they decided to name their building Gail's House in her honor.

At the naming ceremony, Elaine decorated the tables with Gail's pottery and poems.

Friends and family came.

Even people who worked on her case were there.

I'll never forget the naming.

We were in a public room called the Tudor Room at the Law School.

And as we were almost leaving,

a tall, beautiful woman ran in.

And I happened to be close to the door.

And she said to me, where's Elaine Katz?

And I said, I'm Elaine Katz.

And she said, you changed my life.

She said, Gail's story gave me the courage to leave an abusive husband.

I'm an immigrant and he was threatening me that I would be deported and I would never see my children again.

And

your telling Yale's story gave me the courage to leave that relationship.

And that is why we tell these stories.

I wish I could say that now, after all these years, Elaine and everyone else impacted by this case could rest and simply focus on helping others in Gail's honor.

But now we've got a new fight on our hands, keeping Bob behind bars.

I had 20 years of like solid peace, and it was heavenly.

I never thought about Bob for 20 years and then the paroles process started.

I will do anything to keep him in.

He is a danger to everybody.

I'm Carol Fisher and from the teams at Novel and iHeartRadio, you're listening to The Girlfriends.

Our final episode, episode 9, We Are a Sisterhood.

After Bob was charged with Gail's murder in 2000, he was incarcerated at Otisville Correctional Facility in Orange County.

Over the course of Bob's 20-year sentence, he's undertaken anger management courses, helped other prisoners with their studies, and spoken with the prison rabbi.

As far as we know, he's only had one altercation in prison, which was right at the start where he was beaten up by a prisoner who wanted to steal his wedding ring.

In those 20 years, you'd hope Bob would have had time to think.

Perhaps he would have reached out to Gail's family, but he didn't.

Instead, he continued to insist he was innocent.

He appealed his case.

He refused to be interviewed or to testify at his trial.

His silence has been deafening.

Then, on December 30th, 2020, Bob came up for parole and for the first time he spoke.

And Mindy and I, we have the transcripts.

All right, so Carol, who are you going to be?

So I'm the commissioner.

Great.

I get to be Bob.

Uh-huh.

Yeah, you get to be Bob.

Okay.

You ready?

Mm-hmm.

I'm ready.

Okay.

Tell me what happened on July 7th, 1985.

What happened that led to her death, sir?

What happened was during that weekend, we spent the whole weekend together and we had a pleasant weekend.

At the time, I was working about 100 hours a week, and at my secondary job, I was working about another 20 hours a week.

On that morning, we had planned on going to a birthday party for my nephew.

My wife told me she did not want to go to the party, and we had an argument about it.

It was initially a verbal argument.

We were arguing with each other, and things escalated.

I wanted her to stop yelling at me and I attacked her.

How did you attack her, sir?

I strangled her.

After you strangled her, what happened, sir?

After that, I was frightened about what happened and concerned about what had happened.

So I left the apartment and I went for a walk to think about what I should do about it.

I was cowardly about it and I did the wrong thing.

I was scared about what happened.

I went out and made arrangements to rent an aircraft.

I went back to the apartment and brought her out to the airport and put her in the airplane.

How did you manage to carry the body out of the apartment?

I put her in a duffel bag.

Did you dismember her body, sir?

No, I did not.

So, why didn't you just call the police?

Because I was frightened, scared, and a coward.

So, you rented a plane and you took her to the airport and you put her on the plane.

Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

And then what?

I went flying, I opened the door, and then took her body out of the airplane over the ocean.

And her body was never recovered.

Is that correct?

Yes, that's correct.

You fucking believe this?

I mean, for me, it's like watching the Twin Towers fall.

You know, it's just eerie.

And because it's him,

I don't really even know if it's true.

You know, his language in there just sounds so scripted.

Yeah, and I was a coward.

I can't imagine him saying that.

No.

But I also want to tell you this.

What really got me the most out of this was that in my mind, Mindy, I always thought it was just a tragic accident.

The story that I've told myself for years is that he got into into an argument with her, things escalated, and he pushed her.

Like this was purposeful.

Like he, he fucking strangled her.

Yes, it is sickening.

It is sickening to me.

But to then go and take a walk and think about how to proceed and rent an airplane, that to me is the most sickening thing.

And then he went back to his normal life the next day.

He just goes back as if everything.

And he went to the party.

Right.

He went to the damn party.

Yeah.

He didn't report her missing right away.

I mean, what, oh, my God.

And I am horrified beyond like horrified.

I dated him for six months.

I slept in the same bed.

I allowed him to take my daughter on a ski trip with just her.

I am.

I just couldn't wait to talk to you about this.

I am just so disappointed in myself, and I am so fucking angry at him.

He's a sick fuck and he deserves to rot in jail for the rest of his freaking life.

Absolutely.

And he should never be allowed out.

No.

He is a danger to others.

I mean, I don't think this shows any remorse.

None.

I mean, there's no remorse here.

None.

No remorse.

I was scared.

I did the wrong thing.

No shit, asshole.

He's just a sick fuck.

Bob was not granted parole after his confession in 2020, so he appealed it, had another hearing, and lost again.

But that doesn't mean he won't be successful in the future, and that terrifies me.

But if it scares me, I can't imagine how Elaine must feel.

You know what I would like to do at some point when this is all aired and done?

What's that?

I would like to meet her sister.

Yeah, me too.

It would give me a little closure.

Yeah, it would make me feel complete.

And I'm wondering if it would be healing for her too.

Yeah.

After the break, Mindy and I I, we meet Elaine for the first time.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

Join me, Tatiana Siegel, executive editor of film and media at Variety, for a four-part tale of youthful ambition, artistic integrity, and the dark side of fame.

Just like my parents talk about they knew where they were when John F.

Kennedy was killed.

Pretty much everyone I know knows exactly where they were when River died.

Featuring new interviews with Samantha Mathis, Dr.

Drew Pinske, Corey Feldman, and more.

Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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Elaine, hello.

Hi.

Nice to meet you, Carol and Mindy.

Nice to meet you, Elaine.

Very nice to meet you.

I'm a little nervous, I have to tell you.

What are you nervous about?

Well, I mean, we're meeting for the first time, and I'm hosting this podcast.

So that's been a real honor during that to get to know Gail.

And I've gotten to know you rather well, even though we haven't met.

So, yeah, I just am in awe of you.

You're an amazing woman, a real inspiration.

I just want you to know that.

And from the bottom of my heart, I am just so sorry for your loss.

Oh, that's very sweet of you.

I also feel anxiety.

I feel the anxiety of every time I do something like this,

I have to center myself back in something that's incredibly traumatic.

Yeah.

We just...

Mindy and I just read the transcripts from the parole hearing.

We read them together.

I actually got them a couple days ago from Anna, and it was a very moving moment for me when I read that.

Not that I didn't believe that he murdered Gail.

I didn't want to imagine it the way he did.

So

obviously that he finally confessed was monumental, although I was really annoyed when I read the quote-unquote confession.

And I don't know if you remember where they read, you know, this is what happened at the trial on July 7th, 1985, what happened.

And he started to go into a story about how hard he works.

Yes, yes.

Go on.

I found it very

unsatisfying

because I wanted what I would call a full-throated confession.

And when I read that, it's like the commissioner is saying, and did you do this?

And he's saying, yes.

And we've never gotten what i would call details and i remember during the trial when we never thought we would win saying to dan and steve i'll agree to manslaughter i'll agree to you know a really reduced sentence i want to know and as far as i'm concerned i still don't know yeah you're in such a liminal space and have been in one for such a long time my heart goes out to you thank you

i mean i used to say i want to know, was she in pain?

You know, she had spoken to someone before she died, and the woman said she sounded weird.

And I've always wanted to hear that he drugged her.

She didn't know it was happening.

Of course, that he'd have to admit premeditation, but I really do believe there was premeditation.

I believe it's a bunch of bullshit that they had a fight.

It's a matter of fact, there's a neighbor who says they fought every Sunday.

This one was quiet.

I thought they were away for the weekend.

I think it's absolute bullshit.

I've always believed that this was completely premeditated.

And therefore, I'd like to believe that he drugged her and that she had no idea what was happening to her.

Right.

Right.

How long did you date him for?

Only for six months, thank God.

But may I just say,

I had a lot in common with your sister.

In what way?

Well, her love to have fun, her love for people.

You described her as being in love with love.

That's my whole mantra.

I've been married three freaking times.

So it could have been me.

And I, you know, those six months, I denied my reality.

And by the way, he broke up with me and I was upset.

Like, but it was a horrible six months.

It wasn't that much fun.

The flying in the plane was fun, but I was always justifying his behaviors.

as any woman does who's with a domestic and the behaviors oh he had a temper so he was showing his anger oh yeah early on in the relationship.

Yeah.

But not to the degree that he did, I think, with Stephanie or the degree certainly he did with Gail.

But I knew he had a short fuse.

Did you ever think he would get convicted?

I'd love to hear that part of your experience and thoughts.

I did not think that we would have a conviction.

You know, there's a village of women that convicted Bob.

Three of them are here.

And I remember feeling that I've got West Coast sisters.

And I know you guys, Vegas isn't quite the West Coast, but it's certainly not the East Coast.

All of us, this village of sisters, of women, were working together.

I even remember talking to Dan and Steve when I knew that many of you were flying into New York to testify, you know, what can I do to make their lives easier?

So I said, how about child care?

Like they can come with their kids and I'll arrange childcare for everybody.

And I wasn't allowed to meet you because there was the whole witness tampering possible problem.

But I want both of you to know that I always felt a tremendous kinship, a tremendous appreciation.

I always knew that there were so many of us that in fact,

When the jury reached their verdict, they tell the alternate jurors to leave the jury box because they're no longer needed.

And I'll never forget this beautiful woman of color who was an alternate juror sitting down next to me and holding my hand.

And it was like she was saying to me, the women in the jury pool are with you.

So, no, I know that was a long answer to, no, I did not think we were going to get him.

And do you think he'll get out?

Do I think he's going to get out?

The parole process only allows incarceration for up to 24 months, up to.

It is automatically every two years, and it can be less than every two years.

By this, Elaine means if a prisoner has served their sentence, they are entitled to a parole hearing every two years.

But for a variety of reasons, it can happen sooner.

Bob was due to have his next parole hearing a while ago.

But for reasons unknown to us, he keeps adjourning it.

It really could happen any day now.

I know this is going to sound like cruel and inhuman treatment, but for some reason, they cannot contact me and tell me that there's been a decision.

So I know every month when he's supposed to be there, and I know two weeks later is when the decision can be.

And I start to call the Office of Victim Services on that day, every day.

until I get an answer.

I think that lucky for us, the transcripts of his parole hearings are treasure troves.

He is the same

sociopathic, psychotic, lying, unremorseful.

And

in the

second hearing, the appeal hearing, one of the commissioners, a female, went after him.

for the lying shit he was.

He kept saying, you know, I was angry.

I was, and she said, no, she defied you about smoking.

she defied you about going to a birthday party.

It was about bullying, violence, and control.

It wasn't about I'm immature and I made a mistake.

And I don't know if he's ever getting out.

I hope not, because unfortunately, people like Andy Rosenzweig, the chief investigator, has said to me, You're in danger.

Really?

Yeah.

Or he's going after my kids to hurt me even more.

And he's a tough guy.

I mean, I don't think he's saying this to me because he wants to make me afraid.

So, what can we do to help you keep him in?

You can send letters at every parole board hearing.

Okay.

One of the things that he said at the first parole board hearing that was very aggravating to me was: Gail was an anomaly.

So, if you experienced, or anyone you know experienced, a violent episode with him, the more of those stories that are given to the parole board,

the more the parole board says, Gail was not the anomaly.

It's not a one-time thing.

In 2020, I stopped practicing critical care medicine and went back to school to become a hospice and palliative care physician.

But what I've learned in the past years and have thought a lot about is

when you speak to someone who's dying, you ask them how their body is,

and then you ask them how they are.

And

we may never find Gail's body, but

what an incredible legacy

she

has

been the impetus for.

And a legacy is how the people who love you remember you.

And you have created an incredible legacy for her.

Thank you, Mindy.

Elaine, you've kept her story alive and you've allowed her to help countless numbers of women.

And I get teary as I say that.

Thank you.

And so, to think about the number of women that you've helped thus far and the number of women that will be helped in the future, understanding that domestic violence has absolutely no boundaries.

The power dynamic has to to change.

You know, rape is not a sexual crime.

It's a crime of power.

Which is exactly the way I think about this horribly sad story, because in our own heads, we've created lives and stories around this incident.

And it has had an enormous power for all of us.

But we have to be united in a common idea that the end point is this must stop.

This cannot continue.

You know, by hosting this podcast, I've really learned to trust my inner voice, listen to my intuition.

You know, Gail knew that she was making a big mistake, but Gail never deserved to have a mistake that ended in death.

And that could have been me.

I didn't listen to my intuition.

And, you know, and Maya Angelou says, you know, and I love that quote: when people show you who they are, believe them.

And Bob showed me who he was on the first date.

And Bob showed Gail who he was consistently throughout the relationship.

Yet she had a lot of reasons for not believing him or for thinking that she could influence it with a better outcome.

And she paid the price for that with her life.

And I'm very, very fortunate that I did not.

I have this mantra that I live by, and I think it's applicable here for me.

I strive to always live my life, perform my life better today than I performed yesterday.

And hosting this podcast has allowed me the opportunity to,

I'm going to cry,

get to know Gail,

get to know Elaine,

get to know the family and her friends.

And I have a much better understanding

that violence against women is an epidemic.

It's been a problem.

And it continues to be a problem.

And that I

just want to be part of that solution.

Elaine, Carol,

the torso.

The torso that was found.

Do you have some thoughts about her?

I remember sitting in the hallway at the courthouse after the ME

testified at Bob's trial.

Charlie Hirsch and I were sitting on a bench.

And I turned to Charlie and I said,

Are you absolutely sure?

that this isn't Gail?

And he said to me, very unfortunately, I am absolutely sure.

And

I said to him,

and what are you doing

to find out who she is

so that another family

gets peace that I didn't get for so many years?

And he said,

the best we can with the limited resources and information that we have.

have.

She is someone who died a violent death

and

she was found in May of 1989, by the way, like two days after I got married.

The

Anthropological studies determined that she was probably

murdered in early 1989, which was entirely inconsistent with her being Gail, by the way.

We all knew that at the time.

But she was seemingly Gail's age.

And I feel terrible.

There's a family out there that does not have closure.

After the break, we tell you everything we know about the torso.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

Join me, Tatiana Siegel, executive editor of film and media at Variety, for a four-part tale of youthful ambition, artistic integrity, and the dark side of fame.

Just like my parents talk about they knew where they were when John F.

Kennedy was killed.

Pretty much everyone I know knows exactly where they were when River died.

Featuring new interviews with Samantha Mathis, Dr.

Drew Pinski, Corey Feldman, and more.

Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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When families face their darkest moments, your kindness can be the light they need.

And when it comes to helping children in the Bay Area, you can spark hope with Shell.

When you fill up at the Purple Giving Pump at Shell, a portion of your purchase is donated to charities like the California Fire Foundation.

Download the Shell app to find your nearest giving pump, less than two miles away.

Because giving back doesn't cost you extra.

From September 1st to October 31st, participating Shell stations will donate a minimum of one cent per gallon of the fuel pump from the giving pump or a minimum donation of $300.

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PayPal Open is the platform designed to help you grow into yours with business loans so you can expand and access to hundreds of millions of PayPal customers worldwide.

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Loan subject to approval in available locations.

For the best part of a year, my producer Anna and her team have been trying to confirm the identity of the torso that was misidentified as Gail.

It never felt right to reduce her existence to a cliffhanger and just leave it at that.

But even after hours and hours of research and conversations with the chief medical examiner's office and local police forces, we have not been able to confirm anything, despite several very, very promising leads.

The sad fact is trying to identify her really made it hit home how many other women's stories are out there not being told.

In their search, Anna and our researcher Maddie have gone through hundreds, if not thousands, of women's cases on the missing persons database, and that was just in the state of New York.

Sadly, I can't tell you all of their stories, but I did want to give them a place in this podcast because they're our girlfriends too.

So if you all tell me when you're ready, I'll tee us up.

Okay.

I'm ready.

I'm ready.

Okay.

These are some of the names of the missing and murdered women from the state of New York starting from July 7th, 1985, read to you by myself, Mindy, and Elaine.

Elaine?

Okay.

Gail Katz.

Rosa Westbrook.

Aquila Hodrick.

Flossie Wilbur.

Olynthia Harper.

Helene Rubstein.

Tammy McCormick.

Candida Hernandez.

Rita Fioretti.

Cindy Rowles.

Colleen Brooks.

Erika Franolich.

Mary Sassen.

Eileen Neuberger.

Mary Monroe.

Frances Peters.

Sandra Runkel.

Sharon Polaski.

Gail Richards.

Isabel Rizzo.

Francia Penne.

Sonia Archie.

Ella Taylor.

Elizabeth Mundelli.

Shirley Clemgard.

Anne Lubrano.

Norma Parkinson.

Monique Santiago.

Marilyn Mara.

Wilson Marino.

Barbara Lane.

Jessica Soto.

Harriet Hoyt.

Noreen Haguchi Brown.

Marie Muselia.

Judith Gueran.

Ebony Trura.

Denise Griffin.

Elise Farmer.

Leona Rodriguez.

Tanya Blairove.

Charmine Smalls.

Krista Nicole Belusco.

Tiffany Dixon.

Tani Morgan.

Shomara Rodriguez.

Yang Pack.

Lena Ham.

Inez Silverio.

Deborah Overbach.

Margaret Riley.

Teresa Schroeder.

Glenda Lees Valentine.

Evelyn Henriquez.

Christine Markey.

Suzanne Leol.

Arlene Abbas.

Elizabeth Bump.

Judith Conraro.

Stacey Pennant.

Sarah Wood.

Tracy Collington.

Erica Pavoca.

Heidi Allen.

Catherine Chiang.

Sandra Sali, Elizabeth Gusman, Laura Williams, Jane Kelsey, Angette Petroski, Lucy Fuentes,

Charlotte Fuller,

Robin Murphy, Joan Adler, Wen Wong, Catherine Minningham, Sarah Hodgney, Jennifer Bolduck, Andrea Robinson, Sonia Oliver, Lori Bova, Michelle Isan, Jennifer Gordon, Richardine Middleton, Camden Sylvia,

Judith Vallows,

Cynthia Bohmer,

Sylvia Cabdman,

Leon, Anna Savetti, Belita Gambrell, Kristen Kupka,

Frances Clark,

Irene Silverman,

Tajana Lupach, Cynthia Quarles,

Patricia Kinneari,

Leanne Halsberg,

Stiana Ignatovich,

Debbie Ferris,

Denise Heyerman,

Samia Haji,

Helen Young, Grace Gatamaso,

Indira Monteiero,

Francois Moissan, Harriet Olson, Lorraine Grunage, Jennifer Poole,

Ashley Carroll, Patricia Bartza,

Tiamanja Palazzo,

Dahlia Averaria, Jennifer Matthew,

Ivy Mantello,

Irena Truscher, Gretchen Wachter, Mara Gorlich,

Haley Rissler, Heather Ballard,

Kaylin Martinez,

Linda Mann, Natoya Stevens,

Faith Prescott, Alexandria Balhoy, Falia Gorsis,

Christine Gilhouli,

Shannon Mary, Sunia Sutana,

Latricia Banks, Casey Peterson, Amanda King,

Sharon Ross,

Kathleen Wayner, Marie Carol Minini, Amy Goldberg, Rosemarie Gari-Leon,

Patricia Cagueso, Barrie Madal, Dominique Patrick,

Maria Kinwatos, Emila Malave, April Parker,

Mu Iket, Ivelise Onilla, Laura Shea,

Rosalina LaFonte,

Patricia Cabrera,

Kaya Harris, Toncia Toncia Camfouri, Sonia Lewis,

Sophia Lobach,

Nina Kashi Kandaholu, Mary Ngalani, Margarita Rivera, Jamai Westminster, Sereno, Angela Bernard,

Mercedes Baschin, Malia Boomer, Maria Rabazan, Heather Coburn,

Karine Bermuda, Heidi Shenandeslin, May Bethi Serano, Maria

Johe Torres Maria,

Sonia Manning, Mariano Akar, Larissa Combs, Faride Mattan, Shakia Sutton, Jaylene Jimenez, Deborah Winkowski, Alba Lopez, Cassandra Ramirez, Fadam Abdil, Marin Jevas Rivera, Skylar Simpson, Jeanette Charmella, Vimari Pizarro-Ninez, Pranisha Sarki, Zeta Casanova, Tina John Pierre, Manashi Babanga, Somarbai, Rita Hollis, Tuting Lin.

Karima Malendres.

Tanija Wright.

Maya Cray.

Fidelina Roblero Gonzalez.

Lorraine Lacana.

Jessica Lopez.

Regina Williams.

Sunhi Miller.

Lyshana Lapkowski.

Tatiana Mohammed.

Kai Gorman.

Cheyenne Lightfoot.

Amaya Rashid.

Dina Feinstein.

Nevia Smith.

Diana Menjavar Tershwa.

Brittany Delgado Delgado.

If you all made it with us this far, thank you.

Truth is, we could have kept going.

I'm emotionally

drained and I'm in awe of you contextualizing where my sister stands in the universe.

Thank you.

The Girlfriends is produced by Novel for iHeartRadio.

For more from Novel, visit novel.audio.

The series is hosted by me, Carol Fisher, and produced by Anna Sinfield.

Our assistant producer is Julian Manugera-Patten, and our researcher is Madeline Parr.

The editor is Veronica Simmons.

Max O'Brien is our executive producer.

Our fact checker is Valeria Roca.

Production management from Cherie Houston and Charlotte Wolf.

Sound design, mixing, and scoring by Daniel Kempson and Nicholas Alexander.

Music supervision by Anna Sinfield.

Original music composed by Louisa Gerstein.

Story development by Isaac Fisher.

Willard Foxton is Creative Director of Development.

Special thanks to Sean Glynn, David Waters, Maithily Rau, Katrina Noravell, David Wasserman, and Beth Ann McAluso.

We did reach out to Bob and his legal team to ask if he'd like to comment on the podcast, but we never heard back.

Novel.

I couldn't even believe it was real.

Join me, Tatiana Siegel, executive editor of film and media at Variety, for a four-part tale of youthful ambition, artistic integrity, and the dark side of fame.

Just like my parents talk about they knew where they were when John F.

Kennedy was killed.

Pretty much everyone I know knows exactly where they were when River died.

Featuring new interviews with Samantha Mathis, Dr.

Drew Pinski, Corey Feldman, and more.

Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Life's messy.

We're talking spills, stains, pets, and kids.

But with Anibay, you never have to stress about messes again.

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Visit washable sofas.com now and bring home a sofa made for life.

That's washablesofas.com.

Offers are subject to change and certain restrictions may apply.

When families face their darkest moments, your kindness can be the light they need.

And when it comes to helping children in the Bay Area, you can spark hope with Shell.

When you fill up at the Purple Giving Pump at Shell, a portion of your purchase is donated to charities like the California Fire Foundation.

Download the Shell app to find your nearest giving pump, less than two miles away.

Because giving back doesn't cost you extra.

From September 1st to October 31st, participating Shell stations will will donate a minimum of one cent per gallon of the fuel pump from the giving pump or a minimum donation of $300.

Mint is still $15 a month for premium wireless.

And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.

One, it's $15 a month.

Two, seriously, it's $15 a month.

Three, no big contracts.

Four, I use it.

Five, my mom uses it.

Are you playing me off?

That's what's happening, right?

Okay, give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch.

Upfront payment of $45 for for three months plan, $15 per month equivalent required.

New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available.

Taxes and fees extra.

See mintmobile.com.

This is an iHeart Podcast.