Ep 273 | Autistic Kids Can READ MINDS? ‘Telepathy Tapes’ Doctor Reveals All | The Glenn Beck Podcast

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Speaker 5 Today's podcast promises to be unbelievable.

Speaker 5 This is based on a podcast that I listened to about a year ago, still going on, and it is, it will change the way you think about everything. Let's start here.

Speaker 5 Can children with autism read our minds or see into the future?

Speaker 5 Can they know a foreign language they've never been taught, communicate with friends on the other side of the globe without ever leaving their room or picking up a phone?

Speaker 5 The answer, my next guest says, is yes.

Speaker 5 This will make you reconsider everything you think you know about autism, the brain, ESP, human consciousness,

Speaker 5 everything.

Speaker 5 Welcome, author, researcher, psychiatrist, whose work has shook the nation and me personally in the mind-bending telepathy tapes. This is Dr.
Diane Hennessy.

Speaker 5 Diane, welcome to the program. I am so excited to have you on.

Speaker 5 Your

Speaker 5 telepathy tapes

Speaker 5 has totally opened my mind up into

Speaker 5 areas that are

Speaker 5 not just medical advancements or understanding

Speaker 5 and having more empathy, but also spiritually. I mean, this, your work is touching on absolutely, it's game-changing.
It's It's absolutely game-changing. And I don't know why there, there aren't,

Speaker 5 I don't know why you're not a household name right now with everyone. I really don't.

Speaker 5 So welcome. Well, thank you.
You're welcome. Thank you.

Speaker 5 Can we start?

Speaker 5 Because I want to take people who haven't necessarily heard about this. And I want to start really kind of at the beginning.

Speaker 5 So if you don't mind, let me just kind of see if I can have you guide you through piecing all of this together.

Speaker 5 You're educated at Harvard, John Hopkins.

Speaker 5 You study ESP.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 you were at Cambridge Hospital, right?

Speaker 5 And there was a patient that came in. They thought she was going to have a heart attack.
And she said, no, I'm not having a heart attack. What happened?

Speaker 6 Well, that was when I was a consult to the consultant to the medical floors. And if somebody on on one of the medical floors is mentally ill, they can't leave the hospital against medical advice.

Speaker 6 And this woman wanted to leave. She said that she was seeing ghosts and that she was psychic and already knew that the tests would come back normal.
And so she just wanted to leave.

Speaker 6 And so they called me in basically to evaluate her and sign the paperwork. and keep her there.
And so when I went to see her, she told me she was seeing ghosts.

Speaker 6 And I said, yeah, I bet if there's any place that there's ghosts, it's probably in a hospital. And she laughed.
And she said, you know, you know, I like you. And she said,

Speaker 6 I'm getting a reading about you. Do you mind if I share with you what I'm seeing? And I said, yeah, go ahead.

Speaker 6 I thought, you know, I'll just, you know, kind of, you know, get a sense of, you know, how delusional she was by

Speaker 6 about me. And the first thing that she said was, your husband's a chemist.
And my husband was a biochemist.

Speaker 6 And then she said and he's applying for a position in two different cities right now and he was he was applying for post-doctorate in biochemistry that very week and then she told me that we'd end up in San Diego which was one of the cities

Speaker 5 that is where we ended up and and she told me other things about my life that that unfolded okay and so how deeply were you into ESP and all of this and and and how much of it did you think was real at this point?

Speaker 6 Oh, at that point, I was totally in the materialist model of neuroscience. I was a neuroscientist as an undergraduate.
I trained in neuropsychiatry.

Speaker 6 And in my training, I mean, that we were taught that if somebody says that they can read other people's minds or if they can read the future or if they see ghosts, that that's a sign of a psychosis and that they would need medication.

Speaker 6 And so

Speaker 6 this was totally

Speaker 6 antithetical to everything that I had believed.

Speaker 5 What did that do to you?

Speaker 6 It was my, I'm sorry. What did that do to you?

Speaker 5 Well,

Speaker 6 what it did to me was it raised my curiosity because I didn't have any need for things to be one way or the other.

Speaker 6 I'm a really, I was basically raised to be a scientist. My father had graduate degrees in three different different branches of science.

Speaker 6 He was the head of the artificial heart program at Battelle Memorial.

Speaker 6 I was raised with science kits, and I just thought at the time that I was in my 20s, the most exciting frontier was really understanding the brain and consciousness.

Speaker 6 And I already had studied physics and

Speaker 6 was aware of the fact that physicists over 100 years ago had told us that reality is not the way that we perceive it.

Speaker 6 That reality is, you know, that, you know, whether you're looking at Einstein's theory of relativity or you're looking at Niels Bohr and

Speaker 6 quantum mechanics, that you're told that

Speaker 6 this isn't the real reality. And so I thought, when I heard this, I thought, well, you know, this is very, very similar to,

Speaker 6 first of all, I thought, if this is true, if people can read minds or predict the future, that has profound implications for everything. But can I tell you something?

Speaker 5 This is why I like you so much.

Speaker 5 Most people are,

Speaker 5 they like living in the world that has been crafted. And they don't necessarily want to pursue things.
I mean, that is a dangerous thing for you. as a scientist,

Speaker 5 and you must have known this, I'm sure you did, to say, oh, you know what? I think this ESP thing there might be something to that nobody likes to go into that box

Speaker 5 because there's too many scientists that are unlike you that are unwilling to challenge I mean that's what science is supposed to be but they're unwilling to challenge the things that people think they know they have to keep you in this box so Did you realize how scary this was going to be for you?

Speaker 6 Absolutely. 100%.

Speaker 6 I really made a lot of sacrifices

Speaker 6 in order to, yeah.

Speaker 5 You lost your license.

Speaker 6 I mean, I walked.

Speaker 5 I'm sorry. You lost your license.

Speaker 6 Yeah. Well, and before that, I walked away from a successful academic career.

Speaker 6 I mean, you know, not only, you know, as a child was I groomed to become a scientist, but I was groomed to become, you know, at some point, like a chairman of a department.

Speaker 6 I mean, you know, here I was, you know, I was on faculty at, you know, Harvard. And I,

Speaker 6 and then after that, I was part of a think tank that met at the Salk Institute that had all these Nobel laureates in science there. And

Speaker 6 that was like the, you know, like sort of like the pinnacle of, you know, for me was to be at a place where I was working with great minds.

Speaker 6 And when I was at Johns Hopkins, I was trained by the best of the best. I mean, the person who taught me neuroscience there was Vernon Mountcastle.

Speaker 6 And he's the person who mapped out the visual cortex and chimpanzees.

Speaker 6 And I went to Johns Hopkins precisely because I wanted to work with the best of the best.

Speaker 6 I went to the Institute of Psychiatry in London and studied with Sir Michael Rutter back in 1987, and he was the world's expert on autism.

Speaker 6 And I went to Queen's Square, which is the Mecca for Neurologists.

Speaker 6 Did you ever?

Speaker 6 So I really, I really, really wanted to be, you know,

Speaker 6 a top scientist. And then what I discovered when I got into these institutions was that there was a certain ossification of thought.

Speaker 5 They're afraid.

Speaker 5 They're afraid, aren't they?

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 doesn't it breed more fear? Because

Speaker 5 you work. Look, everybody wants to be popular.
Everybody wants to be on the in crowd. You know, nobody is like, nobody ever says, you know what, I want to be a pariah.

Speaker 5 You know, you want to be popular.

Speaker 5 And so

Speaker 5 everything is set up in the world for you to want to be accepted, especially by whatever tribe it is you want to be a part of. And when you go against that tribe, but science should be different.

Speaker 5 Science should be holding the people up who say, you know what,

Speaker 5 this is very risky. But it has to be said, we don't know.

Speaker 5 For years, people said there's no way, you know, God doesn't play dice. Well, look at

Speaker 5 quantum computing right now. It is real.
We just don't have any idea how it works. We are

Speaker 5 infants playing with the universe, and we have no idea what we're doing. But somehow or another, we're arrogant enough just to keep saying, no, we know exactly how it works.
And we don't.

Speaker 6 Right, right. And, you know, I think that, well, first of all, I mean, my father was somebody who was doing really cutting-edge work.

Speaker 6 I mean, before he became a cardiovascular physiologist, he was doing research at Hanford.

Speaker 6 He was doing

Speaker 6 work to see what the biological effects of plutonium were. And his work helped to end the testing that was being done.

Speaker 5 Wow. And then

Speaker 5 is that what gave you courage to stand?

Speaker 5 You think your parents, your upbringing?

Speaker 6 A lot of it is my parents. Yeah, my father,

Speaker 6 I'll never forget when I was in seventh grade, my father wanted to see my science book.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 he saw that it said in there that a frog had four chambers to their heart. And here my father was the head of the artificial heart program.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 6 he had a laboratory when I was a kid. He had a laboratory in the basement that

Speaker 6 he would monitor animals after he had done surgery on them and you know and when he was designing parts and

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 and so i know if anybody knew about how many chambers that there were in the heart it was my father and he said but this is wrong and i said you know i'm like how can that be and he said you can't believe everything you read you know that there are mistakes and so i remember when i took my test

Speaker 6 And sure enough, they had a question about how many chambers were in the heart of a frog. And I had to put down three.
And I got it marked wrong. But I was, that was like,

Speaker 6 that says something about my personality, even in seventh grade, where I knew I had to make a choice.

Speaker 6 And I would choose to put down what I knew was the truth rather than what was a lie because I knew that

Speaker 6 they expected me to write down three. I mean, to write down four instead of that.

Speaker 5 I mean, that is such an important lesson for everybody today. How many people are going through school and they're just like, just write down what they want you to write down?

Speaker 5 That's not the right thing to do.

Speaker 5 So let me just go back real quick

Speaker 5 because what you have to share is so fascinating, but I'm fascinated by you.

Speaker 5 You got your license back. You lost your license and then you got your license back.
That's still used to discredit you by some. Well, she lost her license, but you got your license back.

Speaker 5 Can you quickly just tie that story up?

Speaker 6 Oh, sure.

Speaker 6 So what happened is, I wrote a book titled The ESP Enigma, a scientific case for psychic phenomena. And in that book, what I did was I basically

Speaker 6 described how incomplete the model of neuroscience was. I mean, if anybody should know that, it would be me having trained as a neuroscientist.

Speaker 6 I discussed the physics that

Speaker 6 was over 100 years old and the implications of that. And then I also

Speaker 6 basically gave

Speaker 6 several examples of research that had been done by parapsychologists over the past century that

Speaker 6 had positive results and results that were statistically significant

Speaker 6 that

Speaker 6 so significant that they surpassed that of other branches of science that have accepted other you know other data and so i'm just like there's a prejudice against this and so that's why i wrote that book

Speaker 6 And what happened was

Speaker 6 after somebody reported me to the medical board for some, you know, something that was really a trivial thing that I thought was going to go away.

Speaker 6 I mean, you know, you know, a patient that I had been taking care of had gotten a medical marijuana card. And he was somebody who, if he used marijuana, it would make him become manic.

Speaker 6 And he became manic and he refused to stop smoking the marijuana.

Speaker 6 And so he started doing strange things in public that embarrassed the family. And so they reported me to the board thinking I didn't know what I was doing.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 what happened, though, is that a lot of people don't realize that medical boards are administrative law courts. And they don't work like

Speaker 6 the rest of the judicial system.

Speaker 6 In a criminal proceeding or a civil law case, you're guilty.

Speaker 6 You're innocent until proven guilty. And in administrative law courts, it's the opposite.
You're guilty until proven innocent.

Speaker 6 And so what happened is that the psychiatrist reported to the board that

Speaker 6 because I had written a book on ESP, and she hadn't read it. She just saw the title.
You know, because I'd written a book on ESP,

Speaker 6 I must be engaging in magical thinking. Wow.

Speaker 6 You know, and I think what it is, is that really, you know, what the board is thinking is like

Speaker 6 to even give ESP any credibility at all is such an insane thing to do. This woman must be insane.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 you really can't be mentally ill and practice psychiatry. So they're like, we've got to pull her license right away because she's seeing patients.
And how'd you get back?

Speaker 6 I got it back three months later at the next board meeting.

Speaker 6 And how I got it back was I underwent three days of intensive testing.

Speaker 6 Everything from personality testing,

Speaker 6 IT testing, and Rorschach. And they had to see a neurologist to make sure that I didn't have a brain tumor because

Speaker 6 there was something medically wrong with me to make me psychotic. So, I mean,

Speaker 6 I got a clean bill of health.

Speaker 6 And so they really couldn't justify keeping my license away from me based on my mental health anymore.

Speaker 5 I have to tell you, I don't, I mean, I don't want to compare it to this at all in any way, but I keep, I'm reminded of the Ghostbusters where the women were the Ghostbusters.

Speaker 5 I don't know if you saw it, but one of them wrote a book on ESP and she was discussed. She had a great career and she was just discredited by it.
But anyway, I digress. Sorry to get there.

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Speaker 5 Okay, let me go back to you going back in the 80s. You go to England, you're studying with the guy who is the leading guy on autism, and you're coming back here and

Speaker 5 you're told there's just not enough cases of autism to really do anything with this information to be able to continue to study here, right?

Speaker 6 Absolutely. Yeah, it was at that time it was,

Speaker 6 you know, maybe, you know, one or two per 10,000 children.

Speaker 5 So what has happened? I know this is a big question, but what has happened since then to now? Are we diagnosing more? Is more happening?

Speaker 5 I know we'll get into this later, but I know you say it's overdiagnosed or misdiagnosed in several different ways. You say there's different forms or faces of it.
But what has happened since then?

Speaker 6 Well, it is. So

Speaker 6 I would say that

Speaker 6 it's a combination of everything. And that's part of why it's such a confusing area for people.
I think that back in the 80s, it was underdiagnosed. Okay.
And I,

Speaker 5 and

Speaker 5 because we didn't know what it was?

Speaker 6 well, so here's the thing, okay.

Speaker 6 Back in the 80s,

Speaker 6 we had three subcategories of autism. It was before it all was lumped together as autism spectrum disorder.

Speaker 6 So back in the 80s, we talked about Asperger's syndrome and pervasive developmental disorder. and autism.

Speaker 6 And they really were three different

Speaker 6 conditions. And Asperger's is really more

Speaker 6 this sort of really kind of nerdy, introverted, socially awkward

Speaker 6 sort of individual.

Speaker 5 Peter Thiel. I met him.
Well, I'm not going to say. Yeah, well, I met him.
I mean, you just described him.

Speaker 6 You know, yeah. And

Speaker 6 so,

Speaker 6 but, but it's a diagnosis that goes back to, you know, you know, the World War II, actually.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so anyway, and so then we also had autism. And autism was described by Leo Kanner.
And

Speaker 6 a couple of the children in that

Speaker 6 study of 11 children had regressed during development.

Speaker 6 But the others were the children of extremely bright,

Speaker 6 highly educated individuals and were really more kind of, you know, like what we think of as Asperger's.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so what happened is that

Speaker 6 Asperger's was not, it was not pathologized.

Speaker 6 You know, it's just sort of like, well, that's just kind of, you know, the kid that's sort of a loner, you know, they're, you know, they're really bright and a little eccentric, but it wasn't, you know, turned into a, you know, a psychiatric disorder.

Speaker 6 And there's a huge difference between, and so I would say that was underdiagnosed. You know, we're now, we're now diagnosing people people like that with Asperger's.

Speaker 6 And in fact, it's almost become popular, you know, popular to say on the spectrum.

Speaker 6 Okay. So,

Speaker 6 but then the regressive form,

Speaker 6 that's what's increased in numbers. That's where we've really seen the true increase in numbers is in that regressive form.
And we're also seeing more of the Asperger's because you have more and more.

Speaker 6 There's something called assortative mating where you have

Speaker 6 individuals tend to be attracted to other people that are like them.

Speaker 6 And so,

Speaker 6 I mean, when, if you go back 100 years when we were less mobile and women weren't going to college as much as they are now, you didn't have this sort of more Asperger type, you know, male meeting of a woman that was a little more like that.

Speaker 6 And so what you've... you've had is you've had more and more of these pairings of people

Speaker 5 and and and so you're getting you're having these children That's what I, wasn't it, I'm trying to remember the author of the bell curve, but I think he talks about that, how society changed and you started having pairings where it used to be maybe an intellectual, but married to somebody who wasn't an intellectual, but now everybody started going to the same way.

Speaker 5 And so you think that played a role?

Speaker 6 I think that that played a role. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 6 But then the other thing, though, is these kids whose development is being disrupted right at the time that they're starting to become social beings and develop language, which those are the two criteria for something being autism is that you have some developmental

Speaker 6 anomaly in their language and social skills.

Speaker 6 And so that's that age that

Speaker 6 between

Speaker 6 one and a half and two and a half, where we're really, we're developing language, we're really starting to really test out our separateness from that individuation separation stage of Piaget.

Speaker 6 And so when something happens to interrupt development, then

Speaker 6 you're getting somebody who's being diagnosed as autistic. But there's a lot of things that can disrupt development then.

Speaker 6 And there's a lot of things that are in our environment now that were not in our environment before and get released into the environment.

Speaker 6 without testing to see how do they affect brain development. Because it's sort of like you can't really ethically do those tests.

Speaker 6 right right but then when you're releasing things into the environment that can um

Speaker 5 have those effects then you you know it's we're i believe that we're obligated to try to figure out what's what and um and that isn't that kind of what we're i mean i really want to get to the telepathy part of this because it's so crazy change game changing but i i don't want to just brush this off this is kind of what jf or rfk is doing now right i mean do you have any thoughts on the on the tylenol stuff or you know our food?

Speaker 5 And I don't want to get deeply into it, but that's the kind of stuff, maybe not that specific, but that's the kind of stuff you're talking about.

Speaker 5 We have a responsibility to look for these things, right?

Speaker 6 We do have a responsibility to look at these things. And

Speaker 6 I appreciate that that's finally happening now.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I think that...

Speaker 6 You know, in a way, what they've announced already is some of the low-hanging fruit.

Speaker 5 Boy, he's been made into a nut job for even saying, if that's that's the low-hanging fruit, wait until we get to the hard fruit to pick because they've just torn him apart.

Speaker 5 They're doing to him what they did to you.

Speaker 6 I know. I know.
And

Speaker 6 I, you know, I,

Speaker 6 you know, and I really, you know, I really respect, I must say that, you know, it's inspiring to see, you know, other people who, like me, are willing to, you know, take the slings and arrows and

Speaker 6 because, you know, you're doing the right thing. And I, I care deeply about children and our future generations.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I, you know, and I really, and I care about humanity. I mean, I don't want us to go extinct.
And in many ways, I think that these children with these developmental disorders are

Speaker 6 they're like the canaries in the coal mine.

Speaker 5 So let me ask you, because there's, I read something

Speaker 5 years ago that I don't remember who said it, but it just stuck with me. And I wondered it as I was listening to the telepathy tapes.

Speaker 5 Some researcher said that he felt there was a possibility that

Speaker 5 some with who are diagnosed with autism are actually a step ahead on the evolutionary scale, that they're that they are

Speaker 5 adapting

Speaker 5 to something that is coming.

Speaker 5 What I pulled from that was

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 we are,

Speaker 5 that autism may be not a curse, but it may be a blessing that we just don't understand yet.

Speaker 5 Does that sound reasonable or is that crazy?

Speaker 6 No, it's very reasonable. Absolutely.

Speaker 6 I think that

Speaker 6 one of the features of these autistic individuals is that their cognitive style is different than ours.

Speaker 6 So the highest percentage of people are what are called verbal thinkers.

Speaker 6 The way that they think is in a very analytical, linear way.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 the autistic individuals have predominantly either what's called visual spatial thinking or pattern recognition as their process. And those are superior to verbal thinking.

Speaker 6 And one of the reasons why they're superior to verbal thinking is that, first of all, they're faster.

Speaker 6 It's like the difference between a digital computer and a quantum computer.

Speaker 6 It's gestalt thinking, where you just see the whole thing at once, as opposed to having to figure it out bit by bit.

Speaker 6 People who have visual spatial thinking, they can,

Speaker 6 like Nikola Tesla, they can design something in their mind and analyze it from every angle, test it out and everything before they even build it.

Speaker 5 Correct. And

Speaker 6 then pattern thinkers, and I'm a pattern thinker.

Speaker 5 I think I am too.

Speaker 6 They're the ones who connect the dots.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 that's what we need now. We need that the verb.
The problem with the verbal processing is not only is it slow,

Speaker 6 but it can be deceptive. deceptive you know look at how well

Speaker 6 look at how we can talk we can rationalize and talk ourselves into believing a lot of things that are not true yes and and so that source of knowledge where it comes from what you um

Speaker 6 build an argument for it's it's it's like what a lot of attorneys do and politicians do everybody you know they they they they sell you on a bit of good goods you know they you know they and they make a rational and they and you follow it you go oh yeah you know and that's the that's the primrose path and if that's your source of knowledge versus knowledge where it's just like boom i see it all fits together correct all of the everything converges into this this thing that's closer to truth so there's what we need to solve the problems today

Speaker 6 is that kind of thinking

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Speaker 5 There's a book

Speaker 5 about security, and

Speaker 5 it's by Gavin DeBecker,

Speaker 5 and it's called The Gift of Fear. And I think this is what you...
Have you read it?

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 5 And he talks about fear is a gift if

Speaker 5 you begin to listen listen to it, not over fear, but

Speaker 5 dogs bark for a reason.

Speaker 5 We will always say, you know what, that serial killer lived next door to me for years. And yeah, they were a little off, but I just never saw this coming.

Speaker 5 But the dog probably barked every time because there's a gift of fear, but we rationalize it out. And so we dismiss too many of the scene, too many of the things that are actually important

Speaker 5 not to dismiss. But I think that's kind of what you're talking about here.
So when you have somebody,

Speaker 5 and let's talk specifically how you got in with this group and started finding these, what you found,

Speaker 5 these kids or people that you have been studying,

Speaker 5 is it that they... They couldn't speak.
And so it's kind of like when you're,

Speaker 5 you know, if you're blind, they say

Speaker 5 your hearing hearing becomes more acute because you just, you have to. Is it that they couldn't speak and so they found different ways?

Speaker 5 Or did they find different ways for some reason and that just caused them to not communicate that way? Does that make sense to you?

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Yeah.
So, I mean, during the first

Speaker 6 I mean, our brain remains what we call plastic for our whole life in terms of its ability to remodel itself, but it is really, you know, plastic in the beginning,

Speaker 6 those first four years.

Speaker 6 And so, and really what you're doing in the learning process is you're basically sculpting your brain. And there are certain things that are essential,

Speaker 6 functions that, and one of them is

Speaker 6 navigation, you know, and so that's why if you have people that are born blind, they'll oftentimes be able to navigate using their auditory system.

Speaker 6 There was a famous echolocator named Daniel Kish, who basically emits clicks

Speaker 6 and then he's able to map out

Speaker 6 the world and even mountain climb, ride a bike, and all this stuff

Speaker 6 using the information he gets from the waves

Speaker 6 coming back, bouncing off his environment.

Speaker 6 And so, you know, and that's that's really what we do: we, you know, our brains decode information that's contained in waves you know whether they're sound waves or light waves and so another essential function is communication

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 and when you are a child you're and dependent upon you know the other for for everything

Speaker 6 um communication is critical correct and and and you know being social you know we we want to know kind of what are other people thinking you know and and

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 so like navigation, communication is that

Speaker 6 important. And if you don't, if you're deprived of the typical communication, then you use what I think is a default system.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I think that what they're using is a, if you could think of it as almost like a proto-language, that, you know, that they're able to

Speaker 6 access

Speaker 6 information just like, for example,

Speaker 6 you know, dogs can pick things up. You know, it's a more primal sense that I think we all have.

Speaker 6 But what happens is it gets buried. It gets buried

Speaker 6 and it atrophies to some extent because you don't use it.

Speaker 5 Because they're using it? Is that how they grow? Because

Speaker 5 you talk in the, and you demonstrate. It's amazing what you demonstrate.
They know history. They know philosophy, things they never learned.
They were never exposed to. So is that just because they

Speaker 5 didn't filter all these things out? And so this skill grew? Or

Speaker 5 where is that coming from?

Speaker 6 Well, okay, so what you're talking about is something called savant syndrome, which comes from the Latin savar, which means to know. And there are cases that go back hundreds of years.

Speaker 5 We used to call them idiot savants, right? I'm sure that's not. We used to.
Yeah, but that just meant we didn't understand them. But once you understood them, they were way ahead of everybody else.

Speaker 6 Yeah, I mean,

Speaker 6 yeah, that name came from the fact that it's not, it's different. A savant is different from a genius

Speaker 6 in the sense that

Speaker 6 they usually have deficits somewhere. So it's sort of like you've robbed Peter to pay Paul.

Speaker 6 You've given up something.

Speaker 6 Okay.

Speaker 6 But now you've got this superpower.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so most savants are autistic. And the second most common category of savants are people who are blind.
And so in both of those cases, you have something that, as I said,

Speaker 6 it takes you away from the normal path to meeting those basic functions of navigation and communication and put you back into something that precedes that.

Speaker 6 And so with savants, I mean, there was this boy who back in the early 1800s,

Speaker 6 he was like five years old, hadn't even been to school, and he was like

Speaker 6 spouting, you know, mathematical equations and solving them.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 he even went around and demonstrated this to people. And

Speaker 5 where do you think this is coming from? Because

Speaker 5 you're seeing that.

Speaker 6 Well, that's what I've been working on. I've been working on a theory for that.

Speaker 6 Because see, because that's the thing is that besides knowing about modern physics, I knew about Savat syndrome because of having met Oliver Sachs back in 1986 when I was at Johns Hopkins.

Speaker 6 And he had just published this book, The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat.

Speaker 6 And he talked in that book about these two identical twins who were institutionalized, who were autistic, that he had evaluated, who could just spit out prime numbers in six digits, consecutive ones back and forth.

Speaker 6 And there was no good algorithm for prime numbers. And

Speaker 6 the kids said that they weren't deriving the numbers, that they just appear to them. They just saw the numbers.
And Oliver Sachs tested them and validated their prime numbers. up to 12 digits.

Speaker 6 The kids actually generated them even in 20 digits, but Sachs couldn't validate that because the computers in the 60s couldn't do it.

Speaker 5 And yet,

Speaker 6 so they exceeded computational capacity.

Speaker 6 And when I heard about Savant syndrome, and I had, of course, heard about that before I met this patient at Cambridge, I was thinking, okay, this is another example, even though it was shocking to me, I still was, I was like, this is another example of somebody knowing information that we think we shouldn't have access to, that we don't, it doesn't fit the model.

Speaker 6 And I was like, well, if I'm going to have a complete model of how the brain works, then

Speaker 6 I can't just dismiss certain.

Speaker 6 I have to be able to include them too.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 the reality is that I think that what these autistic savants are showing us is that we have a lot of things inverted in terms of the way that we think about things.

Speaker 6 It's almost like, so you think of Plato and the Platonic realms, you know, you know, that,

Speaker 6 you know, these idealist philosophers talked about how, you know, that that precedes,

Speaker 6 you know, the, the, the, the, the manifestation of something.

Speaker 6 It gets back into like, you know, a lot of scriptures and esoteric

Speaker 6 things where they say first was the word.

Speaker 5 Yes.

Speaker 6 You know, and so it's sort of like, you know, so it's all about kind of the art of creation, the art of manifestation.

Speaker 5 But it also goes to

Speaker 5 more of a

Speaker 5 lack of a better term, a universal mind. You know, it's always struck me that we invented airplanes on three different continents almost at the same time.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 It's almost like there's these things where you, all of a sudden, people can pierce through into a universal knowledge set.

Speaker 6 Absolutely. Absolutely.
And so my model for,

Speaker 6 and my next book will be coming out in fall of 26,

Speaker 6 is really looking at the brain as being more like a device, like my smartphone

Speaker 6 that enables me to surf the cloud. That information is really not, you know, it's not in here.

Speaker 6 This is just my tool.

Speaker 6 And that there is,

Speaker 6 that the actual, the part of the brain, the hippocampus that's involved in memory

Speaker 6 and involved in navigating physical space. I mean, you know, somebody, you know, people got a Nobel Prize for discovering the cells and the hippocampus that are involved in our navigation of space.

Speaker 6 Well, the hippocampus is also involved in laying out memory. And I think that what we're, what

Speaker 6 it helps us navigate both physical and mental space. And that mental space can be our own personal sort of field of consciousness, but we can also then,

Speaker 6 depending upon,

Speaker 6 you know, our own practices and filters and whatnot, that we can actually go beyond that

Speaker 6 and gain access to

Speaker 6 the universal field, if you will.

Speaker 5 So let me,

Speaker 5 why don't you

Speaker 5 spend a few minutes just talking about the telepathy tapes and these kids that you

Speaker 5 found and started finding them all over the world and what they can do?

Speaker 6 Sure. So

Speaker 6 what happened was, is that

Speaker 6 I, after I wrote my book, The ESP Enigma, I was invited to India to meet these savants because I said in the book that I thought that

Speaker 6 basically what savants were doing was the same as ESP. And I knew that savant syndrome was accepted by science.
So I saw that as my sort of my, you know, my

Speaker 5 way that I could, the way that I could.

Speaker 5 Yes, you're good.

Speaker 5 You can connect the dots. I see that.

Speaker 5 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so I went over there to study these Savants. And

Speaker 6 they had these skills that were really remarkable.

Speaker 6 You know, this one boy,

Speaker 6 but a lot of the skills were like, were

Speaker 6 ESP as far as I'm concerned. This one boy,

Speaker 6 he would see illness in other people. And he would like, so for example, the doctor told the story of where the boy touched this woman's breast.
And he said, ma'am, he says,

Speaker 6 I want you to know you better get a mammogram because he doesn't touch people unless they have illness somewhere. And she had a mammogram, and sure enough, she had breast cancer, breast.

Speaker 6 And, you know, and another, you know, another child who was your sort of more typical savant, who he's like five years old.

Speaker 6 And he knew a lot of things in math and science that i mean he'd never been taught um

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 just as i was getting ready to leave india

Speaker 6 this the woman who had worked for the government there um with these children um who had invited me over there she said oh by the way they're all telepathic and um they're telepathic with one another and i'm like what

Speaker 6 i'm like well i would have loved to have tested for that but i you know i was literally i was getting ready to leave and so i came back to the states and

Speaker 6 I was on various, you know, interviews. And we, I mean, podcasts back then weren't, you know, what they are today.
You know, just like, you know, back in 2013.

Speaker 6 And,

Speaker 6 but people were familiar with my work. And I

Speaker 6 said I really wanted to test. you know, children who were autistic, who might be telepathic.
And I was contacted by this family

Speaker 6 and they had a daughter that they said, we have a daughter who's telepathic with two different therapists who come to the home to work with her. And

Speaker 6 so Daryl Trefford and I both evaluated this child.

Speaker 5 In a scientific fashion. It was really

Speaker 5 the way you did it is just brilliant. Very good for you.
Yeah. But go ahead.
Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And so the story of this girl was that her her father, who was familiar with the idea of mathematical savants, thought she was a a mathematical savant because even though

Speaker 6 she didn't do regular arithmetic, she could solve very complex mathematical problems. And so the therapist was working with her in the home one day and her calculator died.

Speaker 6 And so she used a different means of doing the calculation. And

Speaker 6 she used an iPad and it wasn't in this girl's

Speaker 6 line of vision at all. And it gave the answer in logarithmic notation.
And Haley

Speaker 6 spelled on her talker. She had a device where you, you, you, it's like a keyboard that then kind of gives you an electronic voice.
She typed onto it the logarithmic notation instead. And

Speaker 6 the therapist is like,

Speaker 6 wait a minute.

Speaker 6 How did you know that?

Speaker 6 And she said, well, I can see the numerators and denominators in your head. You know, she's amazing.
I'm reading your mind.

Speaker 6 And then the therapist started asking her questions that she knew the answers to, and she's like blown away.

Speaker 6 And then similarly, a second therapist who was working in the home discovered it through some accidents.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 6 so when I went there to evaluate them,

Speaker 6 I put a barrier, a visual barrier between the child and the therapist. And I had cameras through, you know, all over the room.
I had them above and on all the walls. And

Speaker 6 then the cameraman and I were in another room, you know, getting a feed, you know, from, you know, the cameras that we could monitor everything.

Speaker 6 And I had already taken numbers and words and pictures and everything and had randomized them and given them to the therapist as a stack for her to one by one, you know, turn over and see what it was and then think it and say to Haley, okay, you know, type, you know, type talk or whatever it is.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. And

Speaker 5 these tests came back, and this is stunning to me. These tests come back 10 out of 10.
You ask 10 questions, you get 10 right answers, right? I mean, if it was

Speaker 6 close, I mean, it's, it's, it's between 90, it's between 97, you know, people.

Speaker 5 But if you had,

Speaker 5 if you had 70% right, you would think that would be on the front page of every paper. You have 97%

Speaker 5 of the time it's right.

Speaker 5 That's way beyond statistic

Speaker 6 anything. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And that's the reason why.
So

Speaker 6 back up a bit. So, you know, after I got my license back from the medical board, I was determined to do two things.

Speaker 6 And the first thing was I was going to find evidence that would be convincing, okay, to the skeptics.

Speaker 6 And I knew that there was all this evidence that was out there that was, even though it was statistically significant, it wasn't like knock your socks off.

Speaker 6 You know, so let's say if chance is that you get 25%

Speaker 6 of the answers, right, right. And you're scoring at 35%.

Speaker 5 Right.

Speaker 6 I mean, nobody's going to lose sleep over that. Right.

Speaker 5 97% changes you.

Speaker 6 That changes you. And I realized that these autistic savants, that

Speaker 6 they're a whole order of

Speaker 6 magnitude better than any of the other psychic

Speaker 6 literature out there.

Speaker 6 And I realized that with the savant skills, and then just ergo,

Speaker 6 if that's true for the savant skills, why couldn't I then do that with these ESP skills?

Speaker 5 And sure enough,

Speaker 6 I found that they could.

Speaker 5 If I'm not mistaken, I mean, it's been a long time since I listened to it.

Speaker 5 But moms

Speaker 5 were connected more than anybody else, right? Or they would read their mothers.

Speaker 5 Maybe I'm remembering it that incorrectly, but there was something with the mothers that were thinking, my child can read my mind.

Speaker 5 And it was the moms that were either the first to discover or there was a bigger, a higher percentage that could do it with their mom.

Speaker 6 Is that right? Well, that's, well, that's, yeah, I'd say that

Speaker 6 Typically, you know, it is a mother, but it, but it can also be somebody who's not related at all. Right.
They're speech therapist or, you know, the,

Speaker 6 you know, the ABA, you know, person that's working with them. Right.
But I mean, first, it's someone they develop a bond with, usually.

Speaker 5 And it was, and if I'm not mistaken, it was first moms thinking, this is crazy.

Speaker 5 That's not even possible. That we're reaching out to you saying, I know I'm not crazy, but this sounds crazy.

Speaker 6 Right. Yeah.
So the, the, so the people that reach out to me are, um, they're typically extremely well educated

Speaker 6 and they're reaching out to me not only because they have a child who's telepathic and they had some experience where they're going, oh my God, could an autistic kid be telepathic?

Speaker 6 And then they do a Google search and my name

Speaker 6 gets pulled up. But a lot of them, the reason why they're contacting me is that

Speaker 6 this, it was a shock to them. It's not that they were, you know, themselves, you know, came from a family where everybody's psychic or they're woo-woo or, you know, they're into.

Speaker 5 It was you at Cambridge.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, they're having it in their own home.
They can't escape from it and they don't know what to do with it. And they're really desperate to

Speaker 6 understand what's going on. And then also,

Speaker 6 they want to know, how do I raise a kid like this? Because they're like, you know, these kids, one of the things that's funny is that

Speaker 6 they, you know, they can cheat so easily in their school work

Speaker 6 wow you know and and and so the parents are like how do i get them an education when all they have to do is just read it

Speaker 6 just yeah all they have to do is just you know read the teacher's mind or whatever that's so funny

Speaker 6 you know it's it's kind of like what we're faced with now with ai you know people are like how do we get these kids to to learn how to think you know if they're just using AI to do the thinking for them.

Speaker 5 The thing that I was really struck by, and it's always bothered me with

Speaker 5 Stephen Hawking. I love Stephen Hawking's work and I was a big fan of reading just the way his mind worked, the way he was willing to see things differently.

Speaker 5 And I thought, you know,

Speaker 5 40 years ago,

Speaker 5 If he would have lived 40 years earlier, everybody would have been talking to him about pudding in a very childlike voice.

Speaker 5 And he would have been trapped in his body doing three-dimensional models of the universe. And he had to be in screaming.

Speaker 5 My grandfather had strokes and I remember he could not speak, but I remember he would try and a tear would come down his cheek. And I was very young and I remember you can be trapped in your body.

Speaker 5 My grandfather is in a prison. of his own body.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 the same thing, when I saw Stephen Hawking, I'm like, oh my gosh, thank God for technology because he would have spent his whole life people talking down to him like he was, you know, not there at all.

Speaker 5 And that's the thing that these kids are saying. The first thing they say is, I'm a human, I'm smart.

Speaker 6 Absolutely. Thank you for bringing that up because it's such an important piece of this.

Speaker 6 When I

Speaker 6 met Haley and, you know, and saw this telepathy, telepathy, I really wanted to understand

Speaker 6 her brain and understand what was going on. And so I wanted to understand how she learned to communicate doing the typing.

Speaker 6 And so

Speaker 6 I took a workshop. with a couple of different people who teach that technique just so that I could see what are you doing here.

Speaker 6 And a light bulb went on for me when

Speaker 6 this woman who

Speaker 6 is a speech therapist on faculty at a university somewhere on the East Coast, I don't remember right now,

Speaker 6 when she said that

Speaker 6 these children, the issue is really in their motors, their sensory motor system. It's not in their ability to understand speech.

Speaker 6 And I knew, having trained as a neuropsychiatrist, that people can have a stroke in what's called broca's area, which is in the left frontal lobe.

Speaker 6 And that affects your expression of speech, which it also affects your expression of language in general. So also your ability to type is impaired as well.

Speaker 6 And that there's another part of the brain called Wernicke's, and that's the

Speaker 6 understanding of language.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 that's a more posterior part of the brain. And then there's this cable, if you will,

Speaker 6 that connects the two that is not fully formed until we're seven years old.

Speaker 6 We're mindlinating the brain and developing pathways. So anyway, so it's that pathway

Speaker 6 that gets disrupted

Speaker 6 in these autistic kids who regress during

Speaker 6 the development.

Speaker 6 And so they can't express the language.

Speaker 6 But Wernicke's

Speaker 6 area, the ability to understand language is already formed when you're born.

Speaker 6 So that didn't get disrupted.

Speaker 6 It's like having the app is installed,

Speaker 6 but you can't use it yet. because you need some kind of cable that enables it to link to something else.
And

Speaker 6 so it made sense to me

Speaker 6 that these children were just like these other individuals who I knew who'd had strokes.

Speaker 6 The problem is, is because it happens so early in their development, they're not given the benefit of doubt the way we would somebody that, oh, we see in the CT scan, they've got, you know, they've got the stroke here, and therefore

Speaker 6 we'll put them in occupational therapy. Well, speech therapy, we'll try to get their speech back, and you presume that they're still intact in these other ways.

Speaker 5 But she's

Speaker 6 we don't give these children that benefit of doubt.

Speaker 5 You know,

Speaker 5 my daughter had strokes at birth and,

Speaker 5 you know, they said she'd never walk or feed herself or anything else and she's fine. She went to college and but she has a very difficult time with incoming and outgoing speech.

Speaker 5 That's where she was hit.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 5 I feel for these parents because honestly, I feel like the worst parent in the world at times because I don't know

Speaker 5 how to communicate. I don't, it's so different.
And I don't, honestly, I have spent

Speaker 5 35 years praying every day.

Speaker 5 Help me, help me, help me. I don't know how to communicate.

Speaker 5 All of these parents that I know

Speaker 5 that have autistic children, they are so, they don't, they're lost and they love their children. They just don't know what to do.

Speaker 6 Do you have any advice?

Speaker 5 What, what do we do?

Speaker 6 Well, yeah, I, you know,

Speaker 6 I'm, I am somebody who

Speaker 6 I'm not just a scientist, I'm a clinician. And my heart really, you know, has been so touched by these families, you know, and looking at the challenges that they have.
And so

Speaker 6 it's like on the one hand, there's these amazing gifts, and then yet at the same time, there are these

Speaker 6 significant heart-wrenching challenges that a lot of these children have.

Speaker 6 So I have a new, you know, I've just recently started a new nonprofit, you know, research institute because what I want to do is not only continue to research their gifts, I want to see how can we help them live to their fullest human potential.

Speaker 5 And it's weird when you say that, isn't it?

Speaker 6 I really believe that we can do that. I really do.
I mean, there are certain things that I want to investigate that I think could really, really help these children.

Speaker 6 And because the pain goes both ways, because

Speaker 6 I have mothers who say to me, I want to know my child. Yeah.

Speaker 6 It's not just the heartache of the child saying, I want to know.

Speaker 5 Oh, no, I I know. I know.

Speaker 5 I know.

Speaker 5 But when you say, you know, we want to help them live to their fullest, I have to tell you, I did a lot of work with Special Olympics

Speaker 5 when I was younger. And I walked away from that experience

Speaker 5 saying,

Speaker 5 they're not the ones with special needs. I'm the one with special needs.
The way.

Speaker 5 they connect with love and the world and everything else. I wish I I was more like that.
So when you say,

Speaker 5 you know, I want them to live their fullest human experience,

Speaker 5 you know, I'm a little afraid of that in a way because you don't want to take, you know, I don't want,

Speaker 5 the worst thing we can do is teach our kids how to live like we, if they have this special gift, to teach them how to live like us. You know what I mean? Oh, no, that's right.

Speaker 6 Yeah. And I am not saying at all that I want them to be like us at all.
Right. Okay.
What I'm talking about is that a lot of them have physical pain.

Speaker 6 You know, they're not,

Speaker 6 you know, and so they have really bad days sometimes because they're in so much pain that they will engage in self-destructive behaviors just to

Speaker 6 yeah, yeah, yeah, just to have a different pain to focus on. Yeah.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so that's what I mean.

Speaker 6 I know that they,

Speaker 6 so you know, you have, you can't lump them all together. No, no, no, no.
Some children that, you have some children that don't have physical pain. Okay.
And

Speaker 6 so what I'm talking about is that

Speaker 6 they have medical issues, you know, underlying medical issues that I really believe that we could address their medical issues and not take away their gifts. I think that their gifts are,

Speaker 6 and

Speaker 6 I have reason to believe that. I mean,

Speaker 6 it's not just theoretical. I mean, there are children who've gotten their medical conditions under better control.

Speaker 6 And what they have is they have more autonomy.

Speaker 6 For example, this one boy,

Speaker 6 He had a fecal transplant because oftentimes the problem is in the gut with the microbiome. And he had a fecal transplant

Speaker 6 with it when one of his older siblings is the donor. And now he can like, he can go in the kitchen and cook himself something.

Speaker 6 That's huge. That's huge.
You know, be able to ride a bike, you know, it's huge, you know, and

Speaker 6 so that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. But he's still telepathic with his mother.

Speaker 6 Because a lot of these children want to have, they don't want to be like us, but they still desire some of the same things. They want to get married.
They want to have children.

Speaker 6 They want to get an education.

Speaker 5 It's like we were saying at the beginning. Nobody wants to be an outcast.
You want to be like everybody else to some degree.

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Speaker 5 Can you take us to the hill?

Speaker 6 Sure.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 Yeah. So the hill Hill is a concept that I first heard about when I was in Atlanta.

Speaker 6 And I met

Speaker 6 Houston

Speaker 6 and he's this in his early 20s, you know, this autistic boy that,

Speaker 6 you know, very telepathic with his mother, Katie. And they're, they're in the telepathy tapes.
And

Speaker 6 they were friends with Libby.

Speaker 6 who is a speech therapist, who had an autistic son named John Paul.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 John Paul and Houston both

Speaker 6 said that they went to the hill.

Speaker 6 And their mothers said that they go into their room and they'll, you know, they'll put like pillows over their head or whatever.

Speaker 6 And then they'll go and they'll talk with all of these other non-speaking autistic kids on this hill. And, you know, and it's a, it's a not, the way it was described is it's this non-physical place.

Speaker 6 So it's, it's more,

Speaker 6 in the

Speaker 5 spiritual realm.

Speaker 6 It's in the spiritual realm. Yeah.
And they say it's guarded by angels and that they go there and they're taught by the angels and they teach each other and that it's a lot of fun.

Speaker 6 It sounds very blissful and

Speaker 6 peaceful.

Speaker 6 And I thought when I first heard of it, I thought, oh, well, that's really interesting. But, you know, I just thought it because John Paul and Houston knew each other.

Speaker 6 You know,

Speaker 6 the fact that they were both talking about it didn't really mean that much to me.

Speaker 6 But then what happened was that these other individuals in totally different parts of the country started saying, you know, mentioned their kid going to the hill.

Speaker 6 And so then it became obvious that this is a thing.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 if you look at

Speaker 6 spiritual traditions,

Speaker 6 the Eastern spiritual traditions, they talk about a place that sounds just like the hill.

Speaker 6 And it really is a spiritual realm that

Speaker 6 you can go to when you reach a certain

Speaker 5 level of

Speaker 5 spiritual development.

Speaker 6 Yeah.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so, you know, and

Speaker 6 so that's what I think, you know, it's like, in a way, I think that we all come from the hill.

Speaker 5 Okay.

Speaker 6 And what happens is, is as we identify more and more

Speaker 6 with

Speaker 6 this identity

Speaker 6 that, you know, as Diane or Glenn or whoever, it identify with that, we become more and more disconnected from the source that we come from.

Speaker 6 We become, you know, whether you want to say that we become disconnected from God or we become disconnected from, you know, whatever you want to call that, we become disconnected from the divine and we we become more and more um

Speaker 6 immersed in the minutiae of daily life and thinking about what i want what i you know i think what i this and it it's this divisive sort of mentality and so i see it as that we're sort of we come from the hill

Speaker 6 and we sort of descend down the hill. And now what we need to do is we need to learn how to climb the hill back up.

Speaker 6 We need to learn how to, and I think that these these autistic kids, it's almost like they're our Sherpa guides to the hill.

Speaker 5 I've always,

Speaker 5 I believe, my faith teaches too, that

Speaker 5 we're born

Speaker 5 forgetful, but we know who we are, you know,

Speaker 5 but

Speaker 5 But our goal in life is to remember. Just remember.
And everything in life is crowding it out

Speaker 5 and helps you forget. And you can get really lost.
But

Speaker 5 I found your work to be extraordinarily spiritual. Don't know exactly how I feel about things on everything, but I found it to be

Speaker 5 it just all rang true to me. Did you get to a point to where you're like,

Speaker 5 this is, I don't know how I know this, but I know this to be true?

Speaker 5 Oh, 100%.

Speaker 6 I mean, there's,

Speaker 6 yeah, there's a certain

Speaker 6 way that everything just all fits together,

Speaker 6 there's a confidence that I have that's a knowing. I mean, a lot of these things, it's not just a belief, you know, it's a knowing.

Speaker 6 And I've been a truth seeker my whole life. And I started out as, you know,

Speaker 6 in the scientific paradigm.

Speaker 6 And the deeper I got into science, the more and more spiritual I became.

Speaker 6 I just saw how exquisite

Speaker 5 God has.

Speaker 5 I don't understand how science doesn't understand that it.

Speaker 5 God has got to be the world's greatest scientist. If God exists,

Speaker 5 he is unbelievably precise.

Speaker 5 How do you miss that? They go hand in glove.

Speaker 6 It's tremendous hubris for us to think that we could ever design anything

Speaker 6 that is better. Yeah.

Speaker 6 You know, we've designed things that are poor imitations of.

Speaker 6 And so one of the things that's so sad to me is that what I'm really, so many of us who become scientists, we get attracted to science because of the basic sciences.

Speaker 6 And, you know, and that's really studying the nature of reality. Okay.
And then what happens is, is that we, then when you go and you get a job, you have to apply that science.

Speaker 6 And usually you're not getting paid unless the application results in some product that's going to make money for science.

Speaker 6 And so the people who fell in love with chemistry are then having to be, you know, they're going to pharmaceutical industry or, you know, people that fall in love with physics have to go into the defense industry.

Speaker 6 We get channeled into these applications

Speaker 6 and the basic sciences are poorly funded,

Speaker 6 just like the arts.

Speaker 6 And I think that it's because of both of those trends in our educational system that we have the world that we have today.

Speaker 6 That

Speaker 6 if we brought back more arts arts into the educational system, then we would have a more balanced brain.

Speaker 5 I think it is.

Speaker 6 That's not just focused on left hemisphere kinds of processing.

Speaker 6 And similarly,

Speaker 6 if we taught the beauty of nature and whatnot, we'd have more of an appreciation for the natural world.

Speaker 5 I have to tell you,

Speaker 5 I agree with you. I think I agree with you.

Speaker 5 I think it is, I mean, science has hurt itself so horribly in the last five years, six years with the rigid, it's this way, don't even question science.

Speaker 5 It's the hubris that I think hurts science. Science should be all about discovery and, oh my gosh, if this is true, what else is possible? You know,

Speaker 5 we... We learn something about the brain and then that's absolutely true.
And you're like, no,

Speaker 5 you know, have you not learned anything from science? It's only true until it's not true, until we learn the next step. And then that doesn't make that not true.

Speaker 5 It just means you're on the road to truth. Science is always on the road to truth.
There is no destination. You know what I mean?

Speaker 5 You never arrive. Stop saying you've arrived at the truth.

Speaker 6 Absolutely. Absolutely.
It's a process. Yes.

Speaker 6 It's a process. And you're always, you put a theory out there as your best approximation of the truth.

Speaker 6 And then your job as a scientist is actually to try to disprove it. You know, the null hypothesis in the scientific method is that you say, okay, can I disprove this?

Speaker 6 And so a lot of science moves forward by saying, well, I can't disprove that.

Speaker 6 So

Speaker 6 that's still the operating theory. Well, when you start getting some of these exceptions that tell you that something's wrong with your theory, it's no longer science.
Oh, I I know.

Speaker 5 I know. It's your theory.
Right, exactly right.

Speaker 6 And it's more what Rupert Sheldrake calls scientism. You know,

Speaker 6 it's as dogmatic as some of the most dogmatic religions

Speaker 6 because they become more wedded to

Speaker 6 that belief system

Speaker 6 than to

Speaker 6 what really is the truth. And

Speaker 5 I agree with you. I don't understand how science doesn't understand.
They've become

Speaker 5 no longer Galileo. They're the Catholic Church.
You know what I mean? That locking him up in the tower. You know, you can't say that.
Well,

Speaker 5 you want the truth or you don't want the truth. I'm not going to change it.
But I mean, it's weird how

Speaker 5 we always seem to lose the balance of things. And I think that's arts and science is what you were talking about.

Speaker 6 Yeah, yeah. We really need to have

Speaker 6 be also stimulating curiosity in kids. You know, they, I mean, school is not a pleasant experience for them.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 6 for me, I mean, my father,

Speaker 6 you know, I may have been, you know, it's hard for me to separate out

Speaker 6 what was like my natural nature versus how much of it was the influence of my father. But I just know that I was always curious.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 I still am. I mean, and and

Speaker 6 when I went to medical school at Johns Hopkins, one of the things they said to us, and Johns Hopkins was a very, very unusual medical school. I mean, they

Speaker 6 very

Speaker 6 they wanted people who would be the ones who were going to be doing cutting-edge stuff. You know, that's the reputation of Johns Hopkins.

Speaker 6 And I remember being told very early on, half of what you're going to learn here, by the time your career is over, you'll find out is incorrect.

Speaker 6 And it's your job to try to figure out which half's right and which half's wrong. That is great.
And I thought that that is not a message that is taught to most medical students.

Speaker 6 And it's one of the reasons why a lot of people, I stayed at Johns Hopkins for, you know, I was there for eight years. And one of the reasons why people oftentimes never leave is because

Speaker 6 you're in that kind of an environment where

Speaker 6 you're encouraged to

Speaker 6 do something novel.

Speaker 6 And usually people don't,

Speaker 6 like for me, I made a big reach.

Speaker 6 Usually people will do something that's novel. There's not quite such an

Speaker 6 earth shaking kind of

Speaker 6 paradigm shift. But for me, it was like,

Speaker 6 I didn't set out thinking I was going to change the paradigm like this. It just presented itself to me and I couldn't walk away.

Speaker 5 Can I ask you a phrase that I read from Immanuel Kant when I was probably 30 that really opened my eyes and I didn't understand it at the time. I do now.
I think the society has changed so much.

Speaker 5 I do understand this now. But I want to ask you the question.
I'm not going to ask you for details.

Speaker 5 Immanuel Kant said, there are many things that I believe that I shall never say, but I shall never say the things that I do not believe.

Speaker 5 Are there things that you are, you either believe, but you're not ready to say, or are there things that you think you're on the cusp of going, I think a massive change of my thinking is coming

Speaker 5 that

Speaker 5 you haven't said yet?

Speaker 6 Well,

Speaker 6 there are things that

Speaker 6 I haven't said yet publicly only because I'm reserving them for when my book comes out.

Speaker 5 Okay, good. May I have you on the show then when

Speaker 5 your book comes back out? I would love to talk to you then.

Speaker 5 Are there things that maybe you can't put your finger on yet?

Speaker 5 but you you have a feeling they're

Speaker 5 they're coming that that will be discovered or what's what's the next big

Speaker 5 thing that you think you might see in your lifetime coming from all of this

Speaker 6 oh wow um that's a big question i know um

Speaker 6 you know

Speaker 6 it's it's

Speaker 6 What I'm what I'm doing right now is

Speaker 6 I dream at night

Speaker 6 in ways that inform my theory. I mean, I'm that deeply steeped in trying to understand how it all works.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so

Speaker 6 I'm, and I get this information in my dreams that it's like yo we can moments, you know.

Speaker 5 And

Speaker 6 and um, so I'm in a constant, I've been in a kind of a constant state of discovery like that.

Speaker 5 Are you, are you feeling?

Speaker 6 So it's like, it's like I'm, I feel like I'm,

Speaker 6 I'm like a fountain in that sense.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 so I know this stuff is coming. I mean, I know more stuff will come.
You know, that's part of what keeps life so exciting.

Speaker 6 But it's...

Speaker 6 It's when we're in dreaming sleep, that's when it's that right hemisphere is dominant. And so the kind of processing that it's doing is

Speaker 6 it's very, very profound. And so then when I wake up, you know, I'll either already have an insight or I'll analyze my dream and go, oh my God, that's what this means.
And

Speaker 6 then I'll look things up and

Speaker 6 I'll find concordance in the literature.

Speaker 6 Because I'm a multidiscipline

Speaker 6 scientist.

Speaker 6 I'm weaving together.

Speaker 6 all of these different branches of science that I had to study in order to become a medical doctor, whether you're talking about biology or physiology or anatomy or biochemistry or biophysics, or, you know, I'm bringing together all of those things.

Speaker 6 And I'm also

Speaker 6 bringing together what I know from being a parapsychologist who studies the fringe stuff that people report that they're, you know,

Speaker 6 they've either witnessed or are capable of doing.

Speaker 6 And then I'm marrying that also with what do we know about what ancient wisdom traditions and scriptures felt was so important for us to know that they put the time and effort that it took back then to encode it, you know, whether it's engraved on stones or painted with their own blood in a cave

Speaker 6 or,

Speaker 6 you know, carefully, you know, recorded as scrolls that were placed in, you know, somewhere where they could be safe. from the elements.
It's like,

Speaker 6 so I'm, I'm, I'm, so I'm, I'm integrating integrating all of these different streams and seeing how they all are sort of informing one another. And it's really, really a,

Speaker 6 I just, I feel, I feel privileged to be

Speaker 6 in a position, you know.

Speaker 6 to be able to do this.

Speaker 6 You know, and I think in this way, this is one of the most exciting times to be alive because it's so much easier to get information now than when I first started out as a scientist.

Speaker 6 I mean, my gosh, you know,

Speaker 6 it was before computers. Yeah.

Speaker 5 Have you ever read Worlds in Collision by Velikovsky, scientist from Einstein's era? He was wildly wrong about many things, but his theory reminds me of you.

Speaker 5 He said, instead of science just rejecting everything, why don't we look for the myths and the religious traditions all around the world and see if they're saying the same things at the same time that would then tell us, maybe

Speaker 5 not how they interpreted it, but would tell us something that, oh, this was probably happening in the world at this time. This was happening in the skies at this time, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 5 It's fascinating because I thought he was very brave for thinking out of the box.

Speaker 5 I want to invite you to come back

Speaker 5 when your book is out. I think you're a remarkable person, and

Speaker 5 I'd like to know before I let you go,

Speaker 5 we spoke at the beginning that

Speaker 5 there's times when we invented the airplane, three separate continents, people didn't know, but you pierced into that. Have you found the people who are maybe

Speaker 5 going in the same exact direction as you are

Speaker 5 and are having these kinds of insights around the world?

Speaker 5 Is there anybody that you know of that has pierced this

Speaker 5 universal mind, if you will?

Speaker 6 What I would say is that there are people who have contact

Speaker 6 there have been a couple of people who've contacted me or who've attended some of the lectures that I've been giving.

Speaker 6 And

Speaker 6 they're literally shaking like this. They're so excited

Speaker 6 because

Speaker 6 I came to insights that they came to.

Speaker 6 And they,

Speaker 6 you know, when you find out,

Speaker 6 that's more confluence, you know, but when you find out that You're not the only one who's like seeing how these dots all connect together.

Speaker 6 Someone else is actually, you know, is connecting the same dots, but

Speaker 6 they're not as public of a figure as I am.

Speaker 6 And they're thrilled that someone is doing this work. And so, yeah,

Speaker 6 that is happening. And so I think that there's something in the, you know, whatever you, you know,

Speaker 6 Zeitgeist.

Speaker 5 Either in the water or whatever.

Speaker 6 Whatever, whatever. There's something happening here that

Speaker 6 it's like there's a pressure for the paradigm to shift and and and

Speaker 6 a space that's being created for that to happen so there's there's both the pressure for it and the space that's allowing it and um

Speaker 6 so we're we're we're we're really at a really exciting time um i think

Speaker 5 i'm a big fan i can't thank you enough for coming on i know this has been like pulling teeth my schedule your schedule has been like pulling teeth to get this interview but i'd love to have you back on again when your book comes out you Very special work and I thank you for sharing it.

Speaker 6 You're very welcome. Thank you.
I've really enjoyed it.

Speaker 5 Just a reminder, I'd love you to rate and subscribe to the podcast and pass this on to a friend so it can be discovered by other people.