How to Talk to Anyone on Edge Without Getting Pulled In

Shopping is hard.

I can never find anything in my size.

I don't even know my size.

I buy my clothes the same place I buy my groceries.

There's a better way.

Make it easy with Stitch Fix.

Just share your size, style, budget, and done.

Your personal stylist sense piece is picked just for you.

That was easy.

Stitch Fix, online personal styling for everyone.

Free shipping and returns.

No subscription required.

Get started today at stitchfix.com.

Welcome to the Jefferson Fisher podcast, where I'm on a mission to make your next conversation the one that changes everything.

I'm going to ask you to please, if you would, find the subscribe or like or heart wherever you're listening on whatever platform you're listening to, I'm going to ask you to click it because I'm giving you a promise and that promise is to make you a better communicator.

For however long you listen to my podcast, whether it's just a few episodes, if you make this part of your daily routine, you will be a better communicator.

And that's my promise to you.

This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth.

I love Cozy Earth.

One thing that I got in the other day that I received was a bath sheet from from them.

They do awesome bath towels, not only beds, bed sheets, but also

bath towels.

This is, I'm over, I'm like six foot one.

I am six foot one, not like I am.

And this bath sheet comes up almost to my shoulders.

It's awesome.

You should check them out.

You can go to cozyearth.com slash Jefferson and use the cojerson for 40% off.

That's cozyearth.com slash Jefferson.

Use Liko Jefferson for 40% off.

I have a newsletter, in case you didn't know, where I send out a weekly communication tip right into your inbox totally for free.

And in response, every once in a while, in fact, daily, I will get questions from people.

I've pulled some of these that I wanted to talk with you about.

They're awesome people that have awesome questions.

I want to get right to them.

This first one is Mac from Michigan.

Here's Mac's question.

My spouse carries a lot of stress from work when he's very stressed out.

Me asking a question can trigger a reactionary response.

All I can say is, I'm just asking a question, and then I shut down.

How can I respond better?

Mac,

I understand because as soon as I saw your email, this hits home.

This hits home for me.

So I am a practicing attorney, and then I have this communication advice that I love to share, and that's a passion.

And then my wife is also a practicing attorney.

She does educational law, totally different world than me.

But when we get home, yes, it is, you're like any other husband and wife.

There are questions that she gives me as soon as I come in the door, or there's times when I'm asking her questions.

So I'm about to wade into

some topics, y'all, that

you may not agree with.

You might go, that's not for me.

That's fine.

This is what I'm about to tell you is what works for me.

This is not a replacement for couples therapy.

It's not a replacement for any kind of therapy.

Let's be clear about that.

So, Mac, this is what,

let me give you first a perspective of what could be happening to your husband.

And I'm just saying this from my point of view.

Whenever I come in the door,

I am,

I have finished my day.

I'm driving and I get home, finishing a whole lot of high-level tasks.

Tasks that big decisions for my clients, big decisions for me.

Big things that I took a lot of processing, a lot of mental energy.

Maybe I switched between doing a podcast, dealing with some issue at the office in my law firm, and even switching between tasks.

It just drains my battery really quickly.

And when I get home and I walk in the door, and if the first thing is questions,

like, hey, did you remember to call the plumber?

Hey, what do you want to do for dinner?

What do you want the plan to be for next Saturday?

It feels like I am

back into decision mode.

Let me tell you why it, as a husband,

this is not Jefferson Communicator Guy, this is Jefferson husband.

I feel like I am

going to fail

my family in that situation because I'm mentally not there.

The questions, even though I know, Mac, you ask questions that are totally reasonable, they're normal questions, questions that deserve an answer, that are necessary, or they're just out of curiosity.

Sometimes the questions feel like demands in that moment.

I'm already overstimulated.

As soon as I walk in, the kids immediately want to wrestle.

They want to play.

I have to be in dad mode.

And I'm just, I'm having a struggle to get out of that mode for a second.

And the questions feel like demands.

They feel like a pop quiz.

And if the answer is, I don't know.

You know what?

I forgot to call this guy.

That feels like an exam.

I just failed it.

I'm getting judgment now that I'm a failure, that I missed it.

I should have called him.

I meant to call, didn't happen.

Now, she's not putting that on me.

I'm putting that on me.

Maybe it's another question about what we want to do next weekend.

Now I have to, it feels like an ambush of like, I don't, I don't know the right answer.

And so if anytime, if it's did you or what do you want?

And I'm having to say, I don't know, that feels like I am.

not meeting this invisible threshold.

Again, that's not there.

It's just all on

me.

Now, some of you might be listening and go, Jefferson, just get over it.

They're just easy questions.

Can you just be a grown adult?

Yeah, I understand that.

I get it.

I'm just, I'm being honest with you.

And there are times that getting a lot of questions right at home when I've done big level things.

And as soon as I get home, and my brain tells me these are lower level things.

And not in terms of, they're not, I don't mean in terms of not a priority.

That's not what I mean.

I mean, some things are not needing to be decided in this moment.

And so I just want to push them off because I'm still overstimulated.

I haven't come out of work mode.

I'm trying to get into dad, husband mode, family mode.

And that's tough.

I don't mean this as just a husband.

Any, my wife is a working wife, full-time attorney.

She experiences a lot of the same things.

If she comes home and I happen to be home first and I'm peppering her, it's the same exact thing where we just go, can we just not?

Can we just please?

It's very overwhelming in that moment.

I'm telling you this, Mac,

as

hopefully a little bit of insight.

Maybe some of you who are married or have significant others might be nodding your head a little bit and going, Yeah, I understand that.

The last thing I want to do when I get home is feel like I have to answer a hundred questions when this is this should be the place where my nervous system gets to calm down.

This is the place where I don't have to make a decision.

Can I just please just

let me get out of this mode first?

So I don't mean to say that you should never ask questions.

That's not it, Meg.

Timing is very important here.

So I'm giving you a little bit of insight to what might be

happening or being experienced from your spouse.

Now, how do you fix this?

How do we flip that?

How do you ask the questions?

Again, this is what we do in my house.

Does not mean it's what you should do in your house.

This is what works.

We have a three-question rule.

That means after three questions, we're stopping.

It can wait.

So that means we prioritize the questions.

It makes us think about the rank of questions

as soon as we walk in.

the door.

So if it's not something that's very important, it's something that's going to be pushed off, meaning we're not going to ask more than three questions.

And if I know in my world, if I get more than three questions, I am ready to

feel like all of a sudden I'm being avalanched.

So that's how it happens.

I'll tell you, it helps also to have a routine.

For me,

if I go home, walk in the door, and I change clothes, I hug all my babies, and I get out of my work clothes.

It doesn't even have to be work clothes, just get into a different outfit.

It helps my mind get more into, okay, I'm home.

This is me.

I'm not having a, my phone's down.

I'm not looking at social media.

I'm not thinking about some kind of post.

Any of that, it helps me get out of that mindset.

There's another thing that helps, and it is we are very communicative about the time.

So she's good at saying, hey,

not now, is what she'll say.

She'll say, not now, but later.

Can we start thinking about what we want the plan to be for?

this Saturday or if you want your family to come over or if you want to go X, Y, and Z.

And that helps me and her to know that we're not having this conversation now.

She's not trying to force this conversation on me now.

I'm sure, just like you, Mac, you're not trying to force that conversation now.

You're just being curious.

You want to ask questions.

It's letting us know that this is going to be a topic, but we don't have to talk about it now.

Also, on my end, if I'm feeling overwhelmed, I will say, Is this something we have to talk about this moment?

Or is this something we could talk about later?

Is this something that needs to be decided right now?

Nine times out of ten, the answer is no.

So, just having that

communication is crucial for us and how we're doing.

Because we have two kids, there's seven to five.

So most of the time, we can't even have adult conversation, real conversation, until the kids are in bed, which means we're exhausted.

The best conversations we have is usually if we can try and find some time mid-morning to have a phone call or lunch, or maybe we have a babysitter and we can actually have full-length conversations without somebody waking up.

Somebody needs this with kids.

So I know it's a stage and we're enjoying it all, but that's just part of it.

So for you, also, for you not to shut down, what's going to help you is having this conversation with your spouse, saying, I'm noticing, or it seems that when you get home and I'm asking questions, you don't like that.

What would you prefer that I do?

What would be more helpful?

Because again, the questions you're asking,

they're not like they're dumb questions.

They're questions that need to happen.

They're questions of curiosity.

They're questions of caring.

They're questions of this needs to happen for this reason.

They might be necessary.

And if you have this communication, this conversation with them of what's going to be helpful, when can I bring this up?

Because there's certain things you can't just continue to push off.

You can't continue to push off.

That would be my recommendation.

That's at least what we do in my household.

We have a three-question rule until later.

And we're very quick to say, is this something we need to talk about now?

And already knowing if each one of us have had a very busy day, the issues that are going to take priority because sometimes we can't even get into a conversation without somebody needing, you know, a cheese stick

or asking for something to drink.

So that's just kind of, that's part of it.

But give you some insight there.

It's, it's for me, any additional questions when I come in the door, and I know she and I have had this conversation It they feel like additional demands like a pop quiz and if I don't have the answer I start to feel like a failure and then I get more overstimulated and it just gets worse So that would be that would be my recommendation for you Mac.

That was a great question question number two.

Hey Jefferson, I've heard you talk about how your content on improving listening skills is your least popular.

I'm actually very interested in that topic.

What are some ways to be a better listener?

David, you're exactly right.

Anytime I've made a video or put any kind of content out on how to be a better listener, you know how many people like it?

Hardly anybody.

It's always my least viewed video because nobody wants to be a better listener.

We want them to be a better listener.

We want you to be a better listener, but we never want to be that person.

Isn't that funny how that happens?

My most viewed content is always how to handle the toxic person, the mean person, what you can do to hold your ground with him.

It's never how to be a better listener or be more empathetic or be more understanding.

It's just that's the way the world works.

David, how to be a better listener?

This is my overview for this.

There's something what they call active listening, which I think is kind of a weird name for it.

But they term active listening when somebody goes, mm-hmm, yeah, oh, oh, right, right,

and they just continually start to almost talk in nonverbal whenever they're listening to you.

That I find, me personally, I find annoying.

It can go too far.

It can definitely go too far where you feel like, this isn't really sincere.

Now, I've been on plenty of podcasts and the other person's like, right, oh, that's so true.

That I find to be completely genuine.

That's completely genuine.

It's when you can go too far with it.

So there's that point of active listening, which is really just a way of engaging you, continuing to give you something to do while you're listening, while you're absorbing the information.

So

that's something I don't find unhelpful, but I want you to know that is out there.

Here's what I would recommend to be a better listener.

One is mirroring.

It's very easy.

You take the last little bit of somebody's sentence and then you ask it back.

to them.

So let's say I'm telling you this phrase.

Yesterday, you know, I really just didn't feel like somebody was listening to me.

It was just a really hard day.

You would reply, hard day, or you had a hard day, or it sounds like you had a hard day.

You go, yeah, no, I did.

I had a really, a really hard day.

And then we'll keep talking.

You grab the last little two to three words in somebody's sentence, you just repeat it back to them.

Now, you don't want to continue to do that because then it'll be almost robotic, like what's wrong with you?

You're not engaging in a conversation with me.

But it's very helpful

in getting you to listen.

Second thing I like to do with listening is getting very disciplined on the practice of refusing to allow myself to think of a response

while they're talking.

That's the hardest thing to do, but once you master it, it is actually very peaceful.

Let me explain.

If you're saying something to me, David, And the whole time I'm just thinking of my response, I cannot do two things at once.

I will shut you out.

I'll just shut you out.

You know how that feels when you hear somebody talking and you kind of, it's like listening to them in the water or having head muffs on, earmuffs on, where you can hear it and they're good for this and they're talking.

But you're more concerned with what you're about to say and you miss out on what they're what they're saying.

Except my wife says she can do both.

She says she can multitask and that's true.

I don't have that ability.

So it's a practice of totally emptying your mind and just going, nope, nope.

You have to almost deny yourself thinking you have a response until they are done talking.

Once they are done, using your breath, taking a time to think

and then give your response.

Sounds easy, whole lot harder in practice.

I know it sounds easy.

Using your breath, even if you say,

I'm listening or I'm thinking, I'm thinking, and then you give your response, you will be a better listener for that.

Number three, what I also like to do sometimes, depending on the situation, is I will almost challenge myself as if I am going to have to take an exam over everything that was just said in this conversation.

Now, I don't do that in a negative way.

I don't do that in some kind of punishing way.

It just makes me tune in on making sure I'm really committed to knowing and remembering what is being said.

Over the weekend when I was in Denver, I did a speaking deal in Denver.

It was a wonderful time.

We were randomly talking about a group of us.

We're talking about how to better remember people's names.

And one of the tips that I gave was I will often, not only do you try and use their name often in conversation once I meet them, it is

I pretend as if at the end of it, I'm going to take a test, an exam over remembering everybody's name.

And I just, all it does is make me very more aware of paying attention to people's names instead of trying to be passive about it.

It's that same concept.

Instead of just passively listening, I'm trying to be the student.

I'm trying to hang on every single word.

That means I'm asking questions.

I'm not trying to push statements.

I'm asking questions about how did that feel.

Well, when you said this, what did you mean by this?

And I'm using the exact words that they use because it helps train you on being a better listener.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a new attorney, a very brand new, just got licensed attorney, asking questions of a witness, and all they're doing is reading their next question.

They're not even listening to the gold that that witness is giving them.

The attorneys you're scared of are the ones that have their questions and just put them off to the side, and they're just...

They're in right here talking to your witness.

That's when you know they're not even paying a close attention to their questions.

They know their questions.

They know where they want to go.

They're all in on listening.

That makes you a lot more skilled attorney and just a more skilled communicator.

So that would be my advice there, David, from Florida.

Thank you very much for that question.

That was awesome.

Question number three.

This is Pamela.

from Washington.

Pamela says, please address how to handle what to say when you're dealing with a liar.

Lying right to your face, even when you present.

Proof to them, this infuriates me beyond belief.

Thank you so much, Jefferson.

Pamela, I'm sorry that you're dealing with that.

Here's what I want to say at the outset.

If you've presented proof to someone

and you know that they're lying, you're showing them that they're a lying, they're going, no, no, that's not me.

Sorry, I don't, I, and they're still gonna lie to your face despite the proof, that is not somebody you want in your life, Pamela.

That is not somebody you need to safeguard.

That is not somebody that you want to be around.

Because what happens is you end up lying to yourself, lying to yourself that they can be fixed.

Lying to yourself that this is a good person.

This is a moral person.

This is someone with integrity.

This is someone with character.

You're lying to yourself that

they can be different.

And lying to yourself is one of the worst things of all.

So I don't want you to do that, Pamela.

That would be my first

thought for you there.

For anybody who's listening.

If you're like Pamela and you've shown proof to somebody and they're still acting like nothing's wrong and you know them to be a liar,

then you're lying to yourself if you continue to keep this person into your life, or at least as close as they are.

You need to keep distance from these kind of people to preserve your peace.

All right, two, anytime I've dealt with liars,

time

is their enemy.

They don't like you to slow down interactions, they want the quick buy-in.

Want to give a lie?

They want you to buy into it really, really quick.

That's why liars often are very fast talkers,

fast talkers.

Anytime you slow down the interaction, they don't like that.

So I've had it plenty of times when I'm deposing witnesses and I know that they're lying to me.

How do I know?

Because I have proof, I have evidence that they're lying.

I haven't showed them yet, but I know that they're lying.

And they'll start talking to me, and they'll say something I know to be a lie.

And then right after they're finished telling a lie, I go really quiet.

like awkwardly long quiet.

And the liar will just, they'll start to wilt.

They get nervous.

They start talking to themselves.

They start having conversations for me.

They'll start having conversations like, well, why would you think I would do that?

Or they might, what we call down here crawfish, they might start to back up.

They might, they start to back off the lie.

They might say, well, I mean, you know, sometimes, I mean, sometimes.

I don't do it all the time, but I mean, maybe.

I mean, I could have.

I mean, it was pretty dark.

And they try to start to

resurrect and fix their story.

Or they're asking for input from me to try and fix their melting sand castle.

They might say something like, well, what do you think happened?

I mean,

why would you think I wouldn't?

Because they're wanting to hear me so they can take it, spin another lie, and try and fix the wall that's starting to break on their lie.

So time is to your advantage.

Third is use little phrases that is going to clue them in that you're not believing it.

These are phrases that I like to use and this is something feels off.

They might say,

what do you think?

And I go,

I don't know.

Something feels off.

I can't put my finger on it.

I don't know.

Something feels off.

And it will just absolutely drive them nuts.

Or I'll say, I need to come back to this conversation.

Give it a good pause and say,

I need to come back to this conversation.

I've done it in a deposition before where I said, I'm going to come back to this question.

I think I'm going to come back to this question.

And I've just seen them go wide-eyed, like, please don't.

They just know

I'm not buying it.

So it is you standing your ground.

And you see, I'm using short little phrases and questions rather than going, that's not true.

That's not what happened.

You're lying.

You're not telling the truth.

You say, oh, when I'm doing that, all I'm doing is just giving more power, more control to them for them to do something with it.

They're trying to pull that emotional energy, that emotional attention out of you to do something with it.

And

the more an argument they can make with you, it's just more when there's, where there's smoke, there's fire.

So if they can make enough smoke and go, look, it obviously happened.

We just argued about it.

We just spent 30 minutes.

And it's almost as if the more you talk about it and the more you deny it and the more they deny it,

the more that it actually existed.

And that's not what you want.

So slow it down.

If, of course, you've presented proof, Pamela, and they're still going to lie about it, then they are a liar.

And that is not somebody you need to have around you, Pamela.

All right, so I just want you to be careful and protect yourself.

All right, we had Mac.

We had David.

We had Pamela.

These are all awesome questions.

If you like, ask me anything questions.

And I answer these live Q ⁇ A type things.

Please put in the comments whether or not you like this stuff or not.

I'm going to try and start mixing this up.

I have a lot of fun with it.

That's why I wanted to talk about it because these are real people with real problems.

And you know what?

I am too.

We all are.

Real people with real problems.

If you enjoyed today's episode, I am going to ask you to, as always, like, subscribe it.

If you have any questions, just put them in the comments.

I read them.

Or if you have any topic suggestions, let me know.

My book, The Next Conversation, is still out.

It's going to be out for a long time.

Very excited about it.

It is doing very well.

It's a book that I have poured so much into.

So you can always find the links down there in the show notes.

The next conversation: how to argue less and talk more.

As always, you can try that and follow me.