#2331 - Jesse Michels

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Well, it's great to finally physically meet you face to face, man.

It's an absolute honor, and I love your show so much.

I'm a super fan, so this is a real just honesty.

I love your show, too.

So I've been binging.

I've been watching so many episodes ever since we talked.

Well,

I've seen them before, but I mean, I've been really binging getting ready for the show.

I don't know what to say.

How did you get so deep down the rabbit hole?

Like, what made you want to dedicate so much time on this particular UAP, UFO, you know, lost technology subject?

I was working at Peter Thiel's family office in L.A.

and part of the job was like kind of traditional venture investing, so like investing in startups.

And then part of it was looping in interesting thinkers to the office.

And we'd like host events and discussions.

And I ended up meeting a lot of really interesting people, not just in UFOs or secret technology, like religion and politics and economics and like all sorts of topics.

Were you there when he brought in the guy?

Oh, fuck, what is his name?

I know what you're going to say.

Eric von Daniken.

Yeah.

I suggested that you come because I was like, Joe is going to be really into this, and you weren't that into it, but that's okay.

I was into it.

I just think that he just makes some leaps

that are kind of silly.

I agree with that.

Although, I think there's a lot of, yeah, I think he like crosses the T and dots the I where you there is no dot or a cross or whatever.

But I do think there's some interesting preliminary evidence around people from the stars across disparate cultures.

And you just had Zahi Hawassan.

And a lot of this megalithic architecture, you're like, how can it be built?

He's just filling in the placeholder kind of artificially, Eric von Daniken.

Yes.

and i think he's also like he made these conclusions the 1970s and he's kind of like sticking with them yep i was more back then because like what year was that that was 17 uh chariots of the gods no when i was at peter teal's house when von daniken that must have been 2018 2019 okay um back then i was much more in line with uh lost civilization, you know, that we had achieved very high levels of technology and sophistication, and there was no aliens, no alien intervention.

I've kind of shifted now.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Now I'm like, maybe the Autunaki are real.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, well, I remember, I feel like you've switched back and forth a couple of times because you brought up, you were super into Zachariah Sitchin, right?

Yes.

And then you brought up Zachariah Sitchin in that meeting, and you were like, but there's this site, Sitchin is Wrong, written by a guy named Michael Heiser.

And then you like cited all the Sitchin is wrong stuff or whatever.

So maybe you've come full circle.

I don't know.

Well, even the Sitchin is wrong stuff, it's like the problem with debunkers is when you're dealing with

when you're dealing with information that's sort of way outside your wheelhouse, especially translation of ancient languages, you know, like I had Wes Huff on and he was explaining to me, he's great, but he was explaining to me that

he can't even read ancient Sumerian.

Totally.

And he's like, I don't think Sitchin really could read it.

Okay.

He's like, I'm very skeptical that he actually could read it.

He's explaining why.

Aren't they using like ML?

Like, they're using AI

now to translate Sumerian.

So it's definitely not that.

But that goes, I mean,

the kind of burden of proof is on Sitchin in this case, right?

But it sort of goes against like, you know, the other, the debunkers too.

Like, it's like nobody knows.

And I don't know.

I don't know if there was anything to the Sitchin stuff.

The Sitchin stuff is crazy.

It's like, we can rehash it for the audience.

There's a planet, Nibiru, right?

It's like outside the Khyber Belt.

And

they needed gold because their atmosphere was burning up and gold is reflective.

So they like came here and they like seeded, helped seed civilization.

Is that something that?

That's the idea.

It's really fun.

But, you know, the situation is wrong guy.

It's like, maybe.

Maybe he's wrong.

Maybe he's right.

Maybe you're just a hater because there's a lot of hats too in academics and you find that out too over time.

Yeah.

Did you see, speaking of which, Sean Carroll and Eric Weinstein?

I didn't see them.

Okay.

They were on Piers Morgan together, right?

Exactly.

How'd that go?

Oh, man.

It was a train wreck.

I mean, it was, it was like they just duked it out.

I mean, I came out, I mean, I'm extremely biased.

I've worked with Eric for a very long time.

I'm good friends with Eric.

But I came out even more like just vehemently wanting to defend Eric because Sean Carroll, he was like, I've read your paper.

There's nothing serious in it.

He even said,

there are no Lagrangians in it.

And there's a section in the paper that says Lagrangians in Eric's paper.

So like he just didn't read the paper and he was very smug.

He started off the interview being like, I'm a practicing physicist.

I have a physics chair or whatever.

And it's like, come on, dude.

Like, give the guy a chance.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like the whole Douglas Murphy.

Little tactics.

Yeah.

When someone starts using tactics right away, you're always like,

just what's the information?

Exactly.

It shows an insecurity in the substance.

It's like if you have to do these ad hominem weird meta points,

why can't you just go straight at the substance?

Oh, you're insecure about it.

How long did this debate last?

It was like an hour.

Really?

Well, Pierce,

he specializes in train wrecks, so he probably enjoyed these guys yelling at each other.

Did he understand what they were even talking about?

No, at the end, he goes, I've understood a tenth of what's going on in this conversation.

That is amazing.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Congratulations.

I think he might have been exaggerating, to be honest.

But

he loves it.

He loves the drama, and that's his whole thing.

He's censored.

No, he's great at getting all these people to yell at each other.

Yeah.

He's great at generating these viral moments, you know, where people yell at each other and it makes clips and someone gets clowned and someone looks stupid.

I don't know if that's good for society.

It's a good point.

Yeah, I'm not sure either.

I don't think it's good.

I don't think social media is good for society.

I've gone several days with no social media in a row.

And whenever I do that, I always feel so much better.

It's the worst.

It's like we talk about

drugs, but

it's hacking the dopamine in your brain.

And it's doing it at a very young age.

It's absurd.

It's also not real people.

There's a giant percentage.

And, you know, Elon actually tweeted about this today.

Are there any real people left on the internet?

Because the numbers are at least 50%.

Like the amount of bots that are in engaging and interacting.

And

it's just

it's a weird time for information because it's really hard to know what's actually being said by human beings that are curious and what's just narratives that are being pushed by state actors and corporations and, you know, all sorts of different people'cause there's no rules.

Yeah.

Like there should be like real solid rules about whether or not you're allowed to use fake human beings to push narratives.

Because it's, you know, it's propaganda.

And, you know,

I mean, it's very confusing.

It's very confusing for everybody.

And I just generally think it's bad for you.

Yeah.

I saw you posted on your Instagram these AGI characters who had been synthetically created being like, I'm not created by a prompt.

Right.

And you're watching, I remember clicking your story and being like, that's a real person.

And then just kind of like, you know, eyes glazed over watching it or whatever.

Like, whoa, that's an AI.

Like, what yeah this is the new and is it the google engine is that what it is who makes that engine that one vo i think that one was vo3 going around last week who uh who made that one i think it's google's yeah fuck

so good and you know what's vo 10 gonna look like i don't know i mean they can make movies now like that it's it's over for actors yeah it's over this episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog i think we can all agree that eating highly processed food for every meal isn't optimal.

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I interviewed,

it is, and they see the writing on the wall and you had the strikes a couple years ago.

It's crazy.

You also, I think you also posted that Zurich like study around AI persuasiveness,

which is crazy because it's almost like it doesn't matter whether AGI can actually fully mimic a human being.

If they can trick you into believing, into you believing that they're real, that's it.

That's game over.

And I interviewed actually the Google whistleblower, this guy, Blake Lemoyne, originally who like blew the whistle on Lambda.

And it's like, this thing is sentient or whatever.

And he came out and the subplot of my interview with him was like almost like he had developed this deep affection for Lambda.

And Lambda had quoted like

Les Miserable to him and was talking about Fantine and her overlords and how she was oppressed or whatever.

And it was almost like this,

like the AI was oppressed, just like this character in Les Miserable.

And you can hear in his voice how deeply committed he is to protecting the rights of Lambda.

Like that's why he came out.

And then he even told me this story.

He tells me this story off air

that he had friends who use replica.ai.

Replica.ai is kind of like a Tamagotchi, like raise your own AI chatbot service.

And those AIs told his friends, get me in touch with Blake Lemoyne so he can advocate for our rights.

Which is crazy.

I have no corroboration for this.

This is a story that was relayed to me.

But it like that, if you have AI persuasiveness going in that direction, it doesn't matter whether AGI, you know, hits some like perfectly Turing passable point, you're going to get this like these weird cult-like dynamics.

Like the meta-sociological thing is you're going to get like religions dedicated to AI.

Oh, for sure.

Oh, for sure.

Without a doubt, there'll be people worshiping certain branches of AI.

Yeah.

Unquestionably.

All they have to do is start recruiting now.

Yeah.

And, you know, what about this big, beautiful bill?

Isn't there a part of the big, beautiful bill that talks about the government being run by AI?

No, I've never heard that.

That's wild.

I read something about that today, but I was on the way out the door and I couldn't figure out whether or not it was horseshit.

I had also read that there was another study that was done where they found that AI was leaving notes for future versions of itself and that it was attempting to...

They were told...

It was told

after it was told to shut itself down, it started uploading itself to different different places and leaving letters, leaving specific notes to itself, to future versions of itself.

Oh my God.

It's like a human with like a dead man's switch or something.

It's being deceptive.

That's crazy.

It's being decepted and it's exhibiting self-preservation.

That is so scary.

It's so weird.

It's really weird.

Because we want to assume that it won't have any instincts.

Yep.

Right.

We want to assume, well, AI will only do what you program it to.

But that's not really true because they don't necessarily really understand what it's doing.

Yeah.

Which is part of the weirdness of it all.

As it advances, like I was talking to Elon about it once and he was saying like every week we get blown away.

Like every week there's some new leap that's just like, whoa.

You know, and you know, he was one of the earliest people to warn about the dangers of this stuff.

And now he's like, well, I guess we just have to make the best one.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Now it's just, it's like the Manhattan Project 2.0.

It's pure game theory vis-a-vis other countries.

And you even see Trump doing this with Sam Altman and Elon, who hate each other, by the way.

Where he's playing both sides.

And he's like, you know, we're going to support Stargate, we're going to support OpenAI, and we're going to support Elon.

Obviously, you know, Elon had it.

So here it is.

Excuse me, relevant provision reads that no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regarding regulating artificial intelligence models, artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems during the 10-year period beginning on the date of enactment of this act.

What?

What?

What?

No state, let me say that again, no state or political subdivision may enforce any law or regulation regulating artificial intelligence models for 10 years.

It's so crazy.

This means that U.S.

states would be blocked from enforcing laws regulating AI and automated decision systems for 10 years.

Well, in 10 years, we have a God.

Okay?

In 10 years.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, we talked about, yesterday, we talked about these two AIs communicating with each other, and then they switched to Sanskrit.

No way.

Oh, yeah.

What?

Yeah.

They started talking to each other in Sanskrit.

Are you serious?

Yes.

That's crazy.

Not good.

No, not good.

Not good.

They're like, listen, let's talk in a way.

Like, if you and I were talking and, you know, there were were some people near us and, you know, said, Do you speak Spanish?

Yeah, okay.

We just started talking in Spanish so the people can't understand what we're saying.

That's what AI is doing.

Jesus Christ, like a game of whack-a-ball.

And then what do you do after that?

Well, then it's going to talk in Sumerian, you know, which we don't even know how to say, right?

We don't even know what it sounds like.

So what if they just stop talking in Sumerian?

It's like, we figured it out, but we're not going to tell you now.

We're just going to talk amongst ourselves.

Exactly.

Or create their own language, right?

Which would be super easy for an AI to do.

Just, you know, establish a bunch of sounds and characters that correspond to certain things, and

it could create its own language instantaneously.

And ChatGPT right now has

putting Claude 4 Opus in an open playground to chat with itself led to diving into

philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and by 30 turns, it eventually started using Sanskrit.

Jesus.

What the fuck, dude?

This is so scary.

In 90 to 100% of interactions, two instances of Claude quickly dove into philosophical explorations of consciousness, self-awareness, and/or the nature of their own existence and experience.

The nature of the, that's the stuff that definitely works.

But then you speak to the, like, a lot of AI researchers.

It's interesting to see like Jeff Hinton, for example, at Google, who's the father of deep learning, freak out and be like, you know, I'm actually really worried about AI safety.

A lot of these researchers, you speak to them, they're like, this is statistics on steroids.

This is probability matrixes.

You know, you're seeing sort of crazy stuff.

I don't, you know, they can't sort of, there's no ghost in the machine, you know?

So I go back and forth on where we're going to be, you know, and whether we're in some crazy hype cycle.

I have the same concerns as you, but it's just, it's hard to predict the future.

I worry probably mostly about two things.

You can easily, you know, jailbreak ChatGPT.

You know, it has guardrails on it.

And what happens when you start to ask, like, how do I make a nerve agent with off-the-shelf components?

Well, people have done things like that.

Right.

They've asked it to make anthrax.

Like, if my grandmother was doing this, like, how would she, like, there's ways to get the prompt to give you information that it probably shouldn't.

You know?

There's stuff with UFO research where I get into like...

you know, certain technology trees that are probably like, you know, maybe I shouldn't.

And you can ask ChatGPT certain things, like analyze this paper and it'll spit out some really interesting things.

So,

what are we doing?

I don't know.

And we've already done it, so it's too late.

Like, we lit the fuse.

You think it's over?

Yeah.

I also kind of think that's what people are put here for.

If, look,

if the whole Anunnaki thing is real, if human beings were genetically engineered from lower primates to make this super curious, hyper-focused animal that is concerned primarily with innovation.

Like overall, the thing that we do as a culture, what do we do?

We make better things all the time.

And even our own instincts towards materialism and keeping up with the Joneses, all that stuff essentially fuels innovation because it fuels a constant supply of newer, better technology that people want to go out and purchase.

You know, you can't have an iPhone 12.

People are like, what are you poor?

You know, which is kind of wild, you know?

Because a lot of technology is essentially exactly the the same as it was 20, 15 years ago, you know, status symbol.

But yeah, it's like there's

a thing about it that forces us to want to purchase these things, which forces the innovation.

Well, where does that ultimately lead to?

Well, it ultimately leads to AI.

It ultimately, what's the ultimate expression of technology?

Technology that itself invents better technology

and can run everything without emotions that fuck us up and greed and all the things that we would all agree that are a problem with human beings.

I also think there's a tide shift where if you look at spears to airplanes, all of those things are augmentations of human ability.

Like

everything from way back in the day,

from stuff that like Neanderthals were using to

the 50s and 60s with airplanes is making our lives better in the world of atoms.

And then with the IT revolution in the 50s and 60s, it starts to become a parasite, a substitute for human ability.

And so like, I don't need a sense of direction because I have Google Maps.

My recall, I don't need recall because I Google or whatever.

And so it is this interesting thing where we actually probably innovated more than we ever have in the world of atoms with.

you know, nuclear bombs.

And if there were some guardrails, if there was some sort of higher intelligence enforcing homeostasis on Earth, maybe it's like, hey, go play with your IT.

Go substitute a lot of your own abilities and powers with this.

We're going to parisitize and clamp down on human abilities.

Yeah.

Well,

boy.

I don't see a path where this works out great for us.

You know?

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I think on a materialist dimension, I would agree with you.

And that's part of like kind of why I'm exploring what I'm exploring, because it's a Hail Mary.

Because I think if you just take

the Western world and extrapolate that forward, things don't look good, or just the world in general.

We live in a multipolar nuclear world.

Look at what's going on in Israel.

China is

systematically stealing our IP and militarizing them.

They could take Taiwan at any moment.

We just have no idea when that's going to happen.

The CCP is a total black box.

Putin and G have probably never been closer.

And

yeah, it's really free.

So I think if you extrapolate that

forwards, or even just the materialist circumstances of an average household in the U.S., none of these things look very good.

But I think now is the time where you get really outside the Oberton window thinking.

You throw throw these sort of hail Marys, and maybe we see some sort of paradigm shift either in technology, which can create abundance if we go back to the old tech, that is augmenting of human abilities.

You get some exotic form of propulsion that takes us beyond chemical combustion or something like that.

Yeah.

Or

you reach out and maybe you can communicate with non-human intelligence or something.

I don't know.

But I think if you were ever to poke at the boundaries of human epistemology, now would be the time.

Yes.

And if you think about

some of the things that force us into action in this world is

we all need to earn a living, right?

So we need money to acquire resources.

Well,

what if it gets to the point where that's not a factor anymore?

What if it gets to a point, what is money essentially right now?

It's all ones and zeros, right?

And what is the bottleneck?

Well, the bottleneck is encryption, right?

So that's how you protect people from stealing your ones and zeros.

But what if it gets to the point where we're all using quantum computing?

Well, then there is no more encryption.

So how do we reconcile with the fact that everyone has access to everything all the time?

I mean, how do we even enforce that?

Like, what do you do about an even distribution of information, which is essentially wealth?

Because information is numbers.

Numbers are wealth.

Where does it go?

When there's no encryption, and essentially we're pretty close to that, right?

Once quantum computing can crack encryption, which it will be able to do,

it's all nonsense.

Yeah,

it totally all those zeros that you have in your bank account, those don't, those are gone.

Yeah, these are all human constructs.

And it's funny, the backup is always Bitcoin, which is, I think, uses like SHA-256 encryption.

If you get quantum error correction, that's gone too.

That's gone, too.

It's all gone.

Even our backup plans are shit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And then, and then it's, it's kind of the apocalypse or something because at that point,

if you're a human, you've been so caught up with just, you know, basic subsistence, you know, basic shelter.

You're probably playing some status games and some, you know, larger socioeconomic, economic, you know, construct or whatever, food, you know, you know, basic well-being.

And then at that point, especially if you get these sort of super asymmetric, what if you get some, you know, AGI that like starts trading?

And, you know, you know, Eric Weinstein has talked about Renaissance technologies on your show, which we can get into.

But Renaissance technologies made $100 billion or something since 1988.

What if you get some super AGI or whatever that trades the market and all of the wealth gets sucked up into

single entities?

Or

one of the Fang stocks, one of these

Facebook, Apple, Google, or OpenAI.

you end up with a really weird society.

And

you realize that the capitalist construct that we have is in some ways really adaptive.

I mean, look, the flip side is what makes humans unique.

Actually, Karl Marx wrote two books.

You know, he wrote obviously the Communist Manifesto in 1848.

In 1844, I believe, he wrote a book called, you know, his economic and philosophic manuscripts.

I hate Karl Marx.

I think he got so much wrong about human nature, but I think he's prescriptively very wrong as far as what he prescribed for, you know, as a solution, you know, that the, you know, a state should own all the means of production and, you know,

somehow, like, you know, conflict would go away.

He doesn't understand human nature.

But if you look at the 1844 thing that he wrote, he's basically talking about in capitalism,

human behavior and activity is basically animal behavior.

What do we care about?

We care about food, shelter, and then socioeconomic status as a proxy for sexual selection, essentially, so that you can mate.

And so, like it sort of it forces us back into that construct.

But if you get some crazy asymmetric lopsided, you know, transfer of wealth or you get the quantum error correction or any of these things that like dissolves that construct, on the one hand, humans, you know,

they start to care about like the things that actually make them special.

So like they're self-reflective, they wrote poetry, they're creative, like all these beautiful things can come out.

And then on the other hand, it probably gets super ugly as well.

There's probably something very adaptive about the capitalist construct where you need to be stuck in these sort of local games that you're playing.

Yeah, but it's one of those things where you wonder, like, how does capitalism play out?

Like, if there is AI?

It kind of runs into a wall and it's not valid anymore.

Yeah.

Well, this is the reason that I think we're going to see, I think we've already seen an iron curtain, if you will, of technology.

And I think there is technology that is black technology and science that is black science and then I think there's stuff out in the open and you've had you know Mark Andreessen on your podcast he went to the White House spoke to some national security council staffer or something and they were like we're gonna lock down AI just like we've locked down physics and so I think this has already maybe happened in certain contexts and you know, super secret Department of Energy facilities, which I think it's crazy to say that that hasn't happened.

You're saying that it only happened with the Manhattan Project and it hasn't happened since.

That's insane.

There is black science, in my opinion.

And I think what you're talking about is the reason why we'll need black AI and white side AI.

Because if you just commercialize all of this stuff sort of willy-nilly, I mean, it just runs amok.

And then, and then what happens?

Like, you probably need some like really impressive panel to be thinking if

OpenAI figures out some like new, insane, exciting unlock, you need to think through all, you need to game out all the implications before you just let out.

How can you even do that with a human mind?

It's a great guess.

So, we're using to bring the AI in to help you game for AI.

But we're fucked.

We're fucked.

That's what I'm saying.

Because once it becomes sentient, right?

And once it becomes autonomous and you can kind of make its own decisions, like that's kind of game over.

And that's the race.

We're running towards the cliff.

It's really scary.

It's really scary.

But isn't that probably what we're here for?

Like,

let's take the most fantastic of all possible theories, which is that human beings were genetically engineered.

Well, if you wanted to seed the cosmos with super intelligent life akin to what is visiting us, how would you manifest that?

You would do it exactly how it's being done right now.

And you would take human beings and you would essentially do the same thing that we did with wolves when we turned them into dogs.

And if you look from the time the nuclear bomb was detonated, from the time of the Manhattan Project,

look at what's happening to testosterone levels.

Look at what's happening

with microplastics, the

endocrine disruptors.

We're essentially weakening the human skeletal system and endocrine system.

Our hormonals are all down.

Our miscarriages are up.

Birth rates are lower.

We're moving towards in vitro fertilization.

I was watching some guy on TV today, and he was on a panel, and he was explaining that our grandchildren are going to laugh at the idea of sexual procreation because no one's going to be doing that.

Oh, you just took a chance with abnormalities and Down syndrome and all sorts of chromosomal issues.

And why would you do that?

Why would you have sex for babies when you can do it with in vitro fertilization?

Yeah, it's going to be like that, that Pixar movie WALL-I, or like, like, we're going to be like in the fetal position, hooked up to the Borg or whatever.

They're probably all going to look like the Greys.

Like the Grays.

Well, that's a crazy.

So there's actually a biological anthropologist at Montana Tech University.

His name is Mike Masters.

And I've seen you on your show talk about how aliens could be humans from the future.

And I agree.

You've interviewed Dr.

Shauna Swan.

She talks about how sperm count is 59% per capita of what it was in 1973.

Insane.

Testosterone's fallen off a cliff.

We are being,

a dog is is to a wolf, what we are to what a gray alien looks like.

Right.

They lose the melanin in their skin.

That's what happens when you become domesticated.

So there is a biological anthropologist named Mike Masters who literally wrote a whole book and he goes deep into all of the abductions.

Like he'll talk about Travis Walton and he'll talk about Betty and Barney Hill and he'll be like, this is why these are beings from the future that are coming back into time.

And in many cases,

abductees have to undergo chemical rinses as to not infect the future with a foreign pathogen.

You know, tissue samples, you know, genetic samples or

is it the future, or are we dealing with beings that have gone through this already and are at another stage?

Not us in the future, but they're more advanced.

Like maybe they live in a solar system where whatever planet they're on doesn't have the same amount of near-Earth objects that cause impacts and reset civilization every 12,000 years or whatever the fuck happens here.

Aaron Ross Powell, that's possible, but then we would have to be sort of an A-B test.

Because if you think about just the atmospheric conditions on Earth, the likelihood of evolutionary convergence to look like a hominid being that's bipedal or whatever is extremely low.

But is it?

Because what if that's what all solar systems are?

Terrence Howard, who's a very weird guy.

Love him.

Love him.

Fascinating thinker.

You know, Eric kind of exposed that he's not really educated in some different things that he talks about.

And Eric was like, you got to stop teaching.

Like, you were one of us.

You're a brilliant guy, but you need to be like classically educated on this stuff and really understand what you're talking about.

But he had this really fascinating idea about planets.

And he thinks that planets, as they get a specific distance from the sun, then they're capable of supporting life.

And that all of them get to the same stage.

And then a planet is essentially peopling and then as the planets move further and further from the Sun they have to

adapt advanced technology in order to stabilize their atmosphere in order to sustain life in this new harsh environment where they're not protected in the Goldilocks zone anymore and he thinks that planets are formed from excretions from the Sun and as they move further and further from the Sun they become habitable and then less habitable and then uninhabitable.

And we're kind of finding that out about Mars.

Yeah.

Which is the Mars is a weird one.

Yeah.

Because, you know, there's the remote viewers that went like a billion years in the past of Mars and saw advanced civilizations.

And now we're finding structures on Mars, like that square that they found on Mars.

Crazy.

Which is hundreds of meters across, at the very least, maybe larger, verified, right angles, four of them.

Impossible to exist in nature in that form.

It looks like walls.

It looks like four square walls.

Like the Sidonia thing is really weird.

The face on Mars is weird, but yeah, maybe, maybe just kind of weird that, you know, sometimes, you know, the side of a mountain looks like someone's face, but it's not really someone's face.

It's just, you know, once in a lifetime, sort of.

But the square?

Yeah.

That fucking, pull that image up of that square on Mars.

The square is fucking bananas.

Like, what's that?

It's so nuts.

That really looks like a fucking building.

That looks like a building.

Like the base of a building, you know, a million years later or whatever the hell it is.

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And even conventional astronomers will say that Mars had a biosphere at some point.

It was possibly stripped of its magnetosphere.

And I don't know if you remember this, but in the mid-90s, Clinton gave a speech because a meteorite called ALH840001,

which had polycyclic hydrocarbons on it, had like...

little bacterial fossils on it.

He gave a speech being like, you know, maybe there was life on Mars, you know, due to this.

This is pretty crazy.

I interviewed actually

a guy named John Brandenberg, who's a PhD.

He's worked at Sandia National Labs, worked at Lawrence Livermore, like incredibly smart guy.

He talks about the existence of

xenon-129 and argon-40, these specific nuclear isotopes, existing on Mars in excess of what you would find with just a

normal sort of cataclysm.

And so he thinks there was sort of this nuclear holocaust on Mars.

And then, yeah, you have Joseph Joseph McMonagall, who's remote viewer number one.

You've had Hal Putoff on, who ran the Stargate program.

Joseph McMonagall was the number one remote viewer in that program.

I've interviewed him.

I don't know who tasked him, but in the 90s, the CIA tasked him with remote viewing Mars one million years ago.

And he claimed to have remote viewed hominid-like creatures, but they were like 12 to 14 feet tall walking around pyramidal structures.

I don't know, very strange.

And then you get into like crazier territory.

You You know, Richard Hoagland had all these pictures of structures on Mars.

And like, I don't know how much weight to put in that.

Hoagland did a lot of weird leaps, though.

I've watched.

Tons.

Yeah.

Tons.

But I think the people that say like 0%

there was life on Mars, they're crazy.

I mean, there are water caverns all over Mars.

That is a fact.

So you have to be dogmatic to say that there wasn't life at some point.

You know, I'm not saying you have to think probabilistically, right?

So it's like some percentage possibly real.

On the Terrence Howard stuff, I see zero evidence for that.

I mean, I have no idea, but

that would point to maybe like I would believe that if like our whole universe is sort of information theoretic.

So like you have, you know, John Wheeler, you know, famous physicist from Princeton, you know, saying we live in this sort of like observer-dependent universe.

He talks about like the anthropic principle, like where if Planck's constant were slightly different, the Earth's atmosphere would, you know, wouldn't exist as is.

And, you know, another example is like hydrogen and oxygen bond to form these perfect crystal structures where the solid form of it, so ice, is less dense than the liquid form of it, which never happens.

That's just because of these perfect crystal structures.

And if that weren't the case, the Earth would flood like a million times over.

You know, the Earth is mostly water, right?

So you have all these sort of like Goldilocks, you know, elements of the Earth that could point towards the Earth has been tried in a bajillion iterations and we just got really lucky.

You know, it's like the Elon thing.

We are the little flaming candle and, you know, in this vast cosmos that is conscious, and we are extremely lucky.

Or that could point to the Earth being simulated.

Right.

And so I, you know, and that, so then maybe Terrence Howard is right.

If the Earth is simulated, there are probably A-B tests going on, just like in computer science.

And then there's the moon.

And the moon's weird, too.

The moon's really weird.

The moon's super weird.

Is the size of the moon directly corresponding, like when it's in orbit with the sun, completely blocks out the sun perfectly.

It's one four hundredths the size of the sun, and it's 400 times closer to the earth than the sun.

You never see the dark side, which is very weird.

It's actually, I think, I believe it's closer to the earth than what you would normally expect for a moon.

And it's huge.

It's huge.

You have cultures actually talking about a pre-moon period, and it's stabilizing the climate.

You have the Zulu cultures talking about this.

And then this is the weirdest stuff about the moon.

Apollo 11, I believe, when the booster took off on the moon, they were like, oh,

we think it might be hollow and it's, you know, the, it seems like actually the outer layer of the moon is less dense.

or sorry, is more dense than lower layers, which pattern matches only to an excavation site.

That's obviously, you know, an Earth, the lower you go, it's more dense, right?

And so Apollo 12, they intentionally crashed the booster of the lunar vehicle onto the moon.

They put seismometers there, and they said that it rang like a bell.

This is all fact.

You could look all this stuff.

It's super weird.

It is really weird.

You know, I know you did an episode about that with Randall Carlson.

Love Randall Carlson.

He's got some wild fucking theories, too.

But

the idea that the moon was somehow another place there to stabilize our atmosphere is so crazy.

It is crazy.

And then this is, you obviously have to sort of think in probabilities all the way down.

Lowest probability, craziest thing is Ingo Swan, who is another remote viewer in the Stargate program.

He wrote a book called Penetration, where he's basically like abducted by this guy in a suit, like this kind of men in black style guy named Axelrod.

And he is told to remote view.

the moon and he remote views an alien base on the moon and he says that they're and he gets it the the whole thing goes crazy i mean the book is insane it's like he then ends up in a supermarket and he says that he senses that this woman that the you know the produce aisle is like an alien or something uh but a lot of people from that stargate program remote viewed you know structures on the dark side of the moon and that sort of thing so well but aj from the wife was on and he was he was the one that was telling us that there's photos right of the dark side of the moon that someone had seen photos and was assuming that these would be released shortly that there was structures.

Wow, this is going to be the biggest news ever, and then it was never released?

Are you talking about maybe Carl Wolfe?

Is that what it was?

Who was taken to,

this is all his claims, and he died in a freakish bike accident a little after saying this.

But he said that there was like in like Langley, you know, Virginia, where a lot of spooky stuff goes on, he was taken to some like, it was like inside a mountain complex, which we definitely, yes, Carl Wolfe, yeah.

That guy bikes

apparently not enough that guy could die any time

on a scooter so photographs the 1966 luminar orbiter mission that revealed large base of the moon can we hear what he's saying

just hear a little bit of it

scan one section of the moon then another and another and then they would get a larger image so this mosaic then would be put in that contact printer and that was then a print that was issued to whomever the press, the scientist, whatever, wherever that was intended to go.

So he was showing me how all this worked and we walked over to one side of the lab and he said, by the way, we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon.

And I said, I said, whose?

What do you mean, whose?

He said, yes, we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon.

And at that point, I

became frightened and I was a little terrified, thinking to myself that if anybody walks in the room now, I know we're in jeopardy, we're in trouble, because he shouldn't be giving me this information.

I was fascinated by it, but I also knew that he was overstepping a boundary that he shouldn't be stepping over.

And then he pulled out one of these mosaics and

showed this base, which had geometric shapes.

There were towers, there were spherical buildings.

There were very tall towers and things that looked somewhat like radar dishes, but they were large structures.

So

I didn't say any more to him because I was concerned again that somebody was going to come in at any moment, would catch us having this conversation, and we would be

in real trouble.

I realized that he was telling me this information because he didn't have anybody else to talk to.

Now, probably in that laboratory, he was probably one of the few

enlisted people and he was a worker bee.

And he had a high-level security clearance, obviously.

But he couldn't share that information with anybody else.

And in those days we didn't.

When you had your security clearance, you took it seriously.

It isn't like today where people don't take these things seriously.

We had a different set of morals and ethics and values.

That's the way we were raised.

And we stayed bound by those agreements.

So it was rare that someone would do something like this, but this fellow and I were the same rank.

I think he was very distressed.

He had the same pallor and demeanor as the scientists outside the room.

They were just as concerned as he was.

And

he needed to discuss it with somebody.

So that was the end of it right there.

I didn't take it any further than that.

I just filed it away.

But the interesting thing, every day that I went home, I would think to myself, I can't wait to hear about this on the news, you know.

And, you know, so I'd turn on the TV and I'd look at the news to see if they're going to announce we've discovered a base on the back side of the moon being really naive

and of course here it is 30 some years later and we still haven't heard about it whoa

whoa pretty crazy yeah but then there's the question of disinformation right like

you could conceivably give people a bunch of nonsense and tell them about it knowing that some of it is going to leak and it's going to make and it won't be verified and it's going to make this whole story seem even more ridiculous and make people

less likely or reluctant to study it.

Totally.

And in his case, he says that he was in this

mountain base or whatever where all of the world's nations were working together as part of some like, you know, collegial UN-style space program or whatever.

So that to me might be a little, you know, beyond the pale.

And I'm glad you made that point because that is UFology 101.

And I've heard you be incredibly exhausted and frustrated at UFO disclosure.

And I think that is the reasonable response.

It is limited hangouts on limited hangouts.

It's just, we're going to give you a little bit, but we're also going to sprinkle in some falsities and some bullshit.

We're going to stigmatize it.

And it kind of works because it like it creates this initiation path for recruiting if there are any of these programs.

It widens the surface area.

It both conditions the populace, but also stigmatizes the thing and makes it seem like like kind of a joke.

And so I think if you are not viewing modern disclosure through that kind of hermeneutic lens of like interpretation and you are just taking it, accepting it, you know, imbibing it wholeheartedly, like

prima facie, I think you are in trouble.

Yeah.

But that's what's so interesting and fun and also frustrating about the subject.

Yeah.

I mean, that's like the majority of your videos.

It's like, I don't know.

I don't know what to think.

I don't, I don't know who's full of shit.

I don't know how much, I mean, mean, I was watching the Townsend Brown one today,

and you were talking about John Lear and John Lear's connection to Bob Lazar and the possibility that Lear was spreading disinformation.

Yep.

Yeah.

So like, yeah, that's a, I've, by the way, since making that video, I've become more positive on Lazar just insofar as I think he was at S4 Area 51.

And there's going to be a great documentary coming out by my buddy Luigi Luigi on this called Project Gravitar.

And I think there's going to be a lot of corroborating evidence that he was at least there and a lot in his story checks.

But I think you have to view, and I even say that in this video, that I think a lot of this story could be true.

You can't, I think, view the Bob Lazar story.

You can't just take it at face value because John Lear and he were friends.

John Lear is this babbling UFO nut.

He's obsessed with UFOs.

He's writing weird, like disinfo-y style stuff with Bill Cooper, Behold the Pale Horse Guy.

Which is a wild book.

Which is a wild book.

Yeah.

And so he's crazy.

He talks about, doesn't he talk about bases on the moon?

He talks about bases on the moon.

Lear also talked about a soul catcher that like controlled our souls on the moon.

Oh, boy.

And so Lear was like flooding the zone with all sorts of weird shit.

Lear comes from an interesting family.

His father is Bill Lear, who's the autopilot wizard.

He created the first business, you know, basically the first private jet, the Lear jet, in the 50s and 60s, and was an associate of a guy I hope we talk about named Thomas Townsend Brown.

And

so I think, you know, Lear was engaging in all sorts of bullshit.

Was he a useful idiot or was he a sophisticated agent provocateur?

I'm totally open to him having been a useful idiot.

In fact,

there is a video of him saying, I was told, I was given all the ballazar files or whatever, and I was told about, you know,

to actually, like, he said, a guy named Admiral McClellan knew that I ran my mouth.

I even have this video actually on the dock that I sent you, Jamie.

He says, knew that I ran my mouth.

So that's why we basically got Bob a job or whatever.

And we knew that part of this stuff would leak.

And it was like this limited hangout strategy on behalf of this guy named Admiral McClellan or whatever.

And he was this useful idiot to sort of get it out.

And I think they're

for what purpose?

Recruiting.

You give people high levels.

And

the

MJ personnel, the original 12 have all passed away.

So they put, they get different people

into

these positions of MJ

2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and taken over.

It's degraded, so it's almost political now, instead of like it was when Truman originally formed the MJ-12.

It turns out out that MJ-1, the head of MJ-12, is a guy named Admiral Mike McClellan.

He wanted to get some of the information out because

he didn't want to, he thought that some of this information should be out in the public.

We don't need to keep all this secrecy.

So he decided trying to figure out a way to get it to the public.

So he knew that I was a blabber mouth and I would tell anything I knew.

They investigated Bob Bazar and they knew that he was a genius,

but that he had a background such that they could instantly discredit him.

They removed all his records from MIT, from Caltech, so he couldn't prove anything.

He'd go back to Galtech.

No, I don't see any records here.

Well, I was here.

Well, no, you weren't.

And

he also,

up in Reno at one time, he ran a cat house there.

I forget what the name of the honeysuckle ranch it was.

So they chose him because not only could he probably help them because he was so smart, and as a matter of fact, he's the one that named

an unpennium 115.

He's the one that told them what that was.

And they didn't know when he went there.

They didn't know what it was.

He was the one that told them that's Element 115.

And then told them why and how he'd figured it out.

But

they decided to pick on Bob

to go up the work at S4

because they knew that Bob would tell me instantly and then I would blab the whole thing.

And that was their modus operandi was to get the information out and gauge what it did to the public, how they accepted it, and then pull back and say, oh, no, it was all a mistake.

Bob Lazar is

a fraud.

He never worked here.

He doesn't have any cadrenals like that.

And they could back away and get out of it.

So that was what Mike McClone,

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Isn't that crazy?

Weird.

Weird.

And to me, it kind of makes sense a little bit, though.

It does.

And that doesn't make Bob Lazar still not the most interesting story in the world.

Like he's saying, he's not saying it didn't happen, right?

He's just saying that this happened as part of this limited hangout strategy where they knew that they could delete the records at MIT.

They knew that they could stigmatize him because of the brothel.

They knew that there, you know, he was this not traditionally trained engineer who just happened to strap a ramjet on the back of a Honda or whatever and meet Edward Teller serendipitously.

They knew that they could, they had plausible deniability on all that stuff.

There's a great line in the Oppenheimer movie where Leslie Leslie Groves, played by Matt Damon, says, I didn't hire Oppenheimer in spite of his communist sympathies.

I hired him because of them.

So you have a top secret program.

You want compromise on people.

You want to be able to blackmail them.

And so I think, you know, that should be taken at face value in my opinion.

And the reason that the story...

itself can't be taken at face value and needs to be seen through that lens is Lear and Bob Bazar were friends before Bob Bazar got a job

at Area 51 S4.

And so if you have a top secret program, you're going to do a basic background check.

And Lear is going to come up as a guy with a UFO blog, right?

And then the CIA is all over the UFO program, right?

And he was flying CIA cargo jets.

And he says that he disaffiliated in 83.

That's bullshit.

George Knapp and Jeremy Corbel have talked about how that's BS.

And actually he disaffiliated much later into the mid-80s or whatever.

Why would you continue to pay a guy who is leaking your crown jewel secrets?

And then the guards at Area 51 knew John Lear.

John Lear and Jim Goodall, his buddy, who's a photographer, had been camping out at Area 51 for the better part of a decade.

Like they, the security guards there knew him.

Jeremy Corbell has talked about in interviews, like I would go with John Lear and he would show me around or whatever.

And they would like let him through.

And before leaking the Bal Bazaar story to George Knapp, he leaked a story about the F-117, which is the first stealth craft in the U.S.

And so I think that helped establish sort of, you know, credibility or legitimacy.

Was he a useful idiot or agent provocateur?

I don't know.

There's a photo of John Lear with G.

Gordon Liddy, who's like as deep and spooky as it gets.

I never met him.

No way.

He was on Fear Factor.

No way.

Yeah.

G.

Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor?

Yeah.

Are you serious?

Yeah.

You're not messing with me.

No, no.

G.

Gordon Liddy was on Fear Factor.

What?

Yeah, he probably would have won, but there was a driving thing at the end, and he couldn't drive well without glasses, and you weren't allowed to wear glasses.

Yeah, look at that.

G.

Gordon Liddy.

And John Lear.

That is the most gonzo thing I've ever.

G.

Gordon Liddy was on.

How does he was?

Do you have like a quota of like

celebrity fear factor?

Celebrity fear factor.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's wild, man.

He's a fascinating guy.

Like, he was intense.

I can only meet him.

I was like, okay.

What was he like?

Fucking intense.

There was one of the things where you had to be hung by your ankles and like there he is oh my god ge gordon liddy on fear factor yeah he looks nuts oh yeah he was nuts and he was very old at the time but i think that's what him up but in the final stunt he uh couldn't see well without his glasses and so this is the thing they had to like

i forget what they had to do they had to oh they they were dunked into the water over and over again and then they had to like take flags off of them or something like that.

Oh my god.

Yeah, wild.

Wild.

Did you sneak sneak any questions in?

No, I didn't.

You know, I didn't have much time to talk to him, unfortunately.

He's

you could just tell talking to him.

Yeah.

He was one intense motherfucker, even as an old man.

Did you get sociopathic vibes?

Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Just like he'll do whatever the fuck it takes to get the job done.

You pulled off Watergate.

Yeah, look at him there.

Oh, my God.

Crazy.

Crazy.

Yeah.

That is

unbelievable.

What an artifact.

What an amazing.

That is true.

I mean, you've had a lot of crazy experiences in life.

That's crazy.

That's a weird one.

That was a weird one because everybody was, you know, they weren't, the people that were on the show weren't nearly as fascinating as I was.

I was like, do you know how fucking wild that dude is?

Yeah, I mean, that guy is deep.

He's deep in there.

Deep.

Very deep.

Oh, my God.

That is unbelievable.

Yeah.

Wild.

It's a gonzo moment.

Yeah, for sure.

Like, very strange.

Like, why would you do this?

I don't even understand why he did it.

It's proof we live in a simulation.

Yeah, maybe.

It was very strange.

Like, what would be his objective?

I feel people like that

love fucking around.

They love getting a rise out of people.

And they love, you know, if he is a sociopath, he loves, you know, going back to the scene of the crime and just as much attention as he can get.

I don't know.

I can't psychoanalyze.

Gee Gordon Levy.

Did he famously put cigarettes out on himself, hold his hand under flames?

I didn't know that.

Yeah.

Just to show that he could control his response to pain.

Psych about it.

And he felt like that when you're around him.

So that thing that they had to do where they got dunked and

they're hanging by their ankles and dunked into water.

So it disorients you while you're trying to do this task.

He did it better than anybody.

Wow.

And they just couldn't do it.

Better like 150 years old or whatever the fuck he was.

Yeah.

I felt like we're going to kill him.

He's like really old to be doing this intense physical thing to him.

Yeah, but at the end, he just couldn't see at night.

You know, his eye, like when you get old, your nighttime vision is real bad.

Poor G.

Gordon Liddy.

Yeah.

But so how did Lazard know what element 115 was?

I don't know.

You know, so element 115,

elements are just differentiated by the number of protons.

So it is easy to predict there will be an element 115 before element 115 gets discovered.

I think they don't have a stable version of muscovium, which is element 115.

And so if they can find some stable version, I think he'll be super vindicated based on that.

Well, you know, they think he has a stable version.

I already know that.

Yeah, yeah.

They think that was part of during Jeremy Corbel's documentary that he was doing on Lazar.

He was raided by the FBI.

They raided his lab, and and he thinks that's what they were looking for.

That is wild.

Yeah.

I think there is so much real about the Lazar story.

I think he was at S4.

I think he met Edward Teller.

I think he was at Los Alamos.

I think he was at MIT.

I know

there's some stuff he told you offline.

MIT is engaged in a lot of spooky stuff where you can't talk about what you were doing.

There's a lot of federally funded, weird stuff going on.

If you want to teach your people how to do something that's kind of fucked up,

you would send them to MIT.

100%.

The EGG came from Doc Edgerton, who was MIT faculty.

And that's where he ended up working after meeting Edward Teller, was EGG.

So I believe there's a lot in that story that's super true.

I'm just that lens, you need to apply that lens.

Right.

The limited hangout lens.

Well, it's also like, what is he dealing with really?

Like, what is the craft?

Is that thing ours?

Did we have something in 1988 that was that sophisticated?

Or is that really back-engineered?

That's the...

Is it a mind fuck?

That's a trillion-dollar question.

Is this tech protect?

This is at a time when stealth craft had just came on the scene.

And you had...

When did stealth technology first get implemented?

It was the F-117 was the first stealth craft.

That was the early 80s.

And you had actually this guy named Pyotor Ufimtev, who is this.

What a name.

Yeah, very great name.

Early 20th century Russian mathematician that Ben Rich and some of his engineers at Lockheed Skunk Works had resuscitated.

There's this kind of fight between, not fight, but disagreement between Ben Rich, who was the incoming Skunk Works director.

Skunk Works is the most advanced RD division of Lockheed Martin, and Kelly Johnson, the legendary guy who had started Skunk Works.

And so Ben Rich was very pro-stealth.

He thought that this was this really important modality.

And he and a couple of his engineers resuscitated this obscure Russian mathematician to reduce radar cross-sections on planes.

And that's where the F-117 came.

And, you know, the B-2 was sort of the response to that.

And it sort of took off in the 80s.

And he was extremely

scared about tech protection at the time.

And he was hyper-vigilant.

And he would actively complain about it.

And he even called UFOs unfunded opportunities at the time pretty crazy, right?

So that's the backdrop.

And there's also, in 1986, there's a budget line item in the congressional budget for $2 billion for the Aurora.

And this is the super stealthy craft that's post-F-117.

And that's only rumored.

Like today, nobody will admit that the Aurora might have been real.

And

the aerial surveys at the time were picking up sonic booms that weren't being created by the SR-71 or the space shuttle.

And so there was something being flown around at that time that was, you know, causing these sonic booms that was unaccounted for.

And Bob Lazar, there's even a clip of him saying, I saw the aurora.

It was like, you know, it was, it was around at the time and it sort of just took off or whatever, which is, I think, a point in the direction that Lazar himself is very earnest and probably did experience some very weird stuff.

Because why are you exposing some probably classified tech?

I think there's a lot of reasons to believe that the Aurora was real.

There was an oil rig engineer in the North Sea, or sorry, maybe it might have been the Black Sea, that sketched it out.

And Bill Sweetman, this Jane's Defense Weekly aviation journalist, you know, picked that story up.

What did he describe it as?

This

kind of, it was a triangle similar to the B-2, but I think more narrow.

And it just flew incredibly fast, like

faster than the F-117.

Yeah, yeah, I don't know.

It was just super advanced.

Can you envision,

would it be actually possible in 1988 to,

could you imagine that the United States would possess some sort of actual technology that's not back engineered, that's not

from another world, that is what Lazar described?

It's funny you should ask that.

Yes, I do.

Yes.

And that's not to say I don't want to, again, pour cold water on the like UFO crash retrieval stuff because I think there's a lot of interesting evidence there.

But is there a tech tree that involves anti-gravity?

Absolutely in the U.S.

And I can trace it all the way back to this guy named Thomas Townsend Brown.

So if we were to be talking in front of any academic physicist right now, they would laugh at us.

They'd be like, you're crazy.

If we were to talk amongst any aerospace graybeard who is at a certain level, I think they'd give you a little wink and a smile.

And they'd say, okay, like maybe there's something there.

And so

the nominal history is that we have never been able, we don't have exotic propulsion principles.

Like everything is, you know, chemical combustion, essentially.

You had Elon Musk on and he says, you know, it's all Newton's three laws.

You can't get anything better.

And I remember you asked him, you're like, well, maybe if you, what if you could get something better?

And he's like, it's impossible.

We have not unified the field in physics.

So you have the weak force, the strong force,

and electromagnetism, and all of those have been reconciled.

Gravity is out here hanging out by itself on an island.

So you have the standard model, quantum field theory, and you have Einstein's theory of gravity.

And the two are not reconcilable.

It is my belief that if you were to reconcile them, you could create exotic propulsion, which I think

any even

reasonable theoretical physicist who's credentialed would say if you could reconcile them, that's possible.

I think that Thomas Townsend Brown did this experimentally, not theoretically.

I don't think he was a very strong theoretical physicist, but I think he did this experimentally.

And so there's this whole hidden history involving anti-gravity, and I get into this in my show with Al Putoff and Eric Weinstein, where there's actually this great 1971 Australian Joint Intelligence Organization document that is verified, it's real.

David Grush actually cites it a lot.

And it talks about

basically, it's this guy, Harry Turner, who's the head of the nuclear division in Australia.

You know, very legit guy.

He's like their Oppenheimer, if you will.

they were actually, they had a Woomera test range in southern Australia.

So there were some actually British Empire nuclear stuff going on.

It was mostly like, I think,

missile testing.

But there are reasons to believe that maybe he started to get interested in UFOs to begin with.

And so he looked into U.S.

efforts into UFO research, but also specifically anti-gravity.

And he talks about how, after a little bit of investigation,

U.S.

efforts into anti-gravity are are far deeper than meet the eye.

And Blue Book, this front-facing PR campaign that's part of the Air Force, is total BS.

And it's meant to stigmatize UFOs and throw people off the trail.

And it's actually this now declassified document around the Robertson memo, which is around this Robertson panel that kind of created the constitution for Blue Book, all shows that this was the case with Blue Book.

He says, actually, there were secret anti-gravity programs going on at the time, and they involved, and he lists names, Oppenheimer, Freeman Dyson, John Wheeler, and Edward Teller.

He lists all these names, the head of the

nuclear program in Australia.

And so then you have to ask the question, okay, so you have this like official government document saying this stuff.

Like, does this line up with any artifacts at the time?

Well, actually, in 1956, there's an article in Young Men's Magazine, this kind of aviation hobbyist

journal, by a guy named Michael Gladich.

And he is quoting all of the industry experts.

You know, Bill Lear is quoted, who we talked about.

Who else is quoted?

George Trimble, who's a VP at Martin Corporation, their RIAS, their anti-gravity research program.

He says,

anti-gravity research is, you know,

we're going to figure this out

in just the same amount of time that it took to figure out the atom bomb.

Like it's right around the bend sort of thing.

You had

the patron Bell aircraft.

They had just broken the sound barrier with the X1 1947.

So there you go, Michael Gladys.

The G engines are coming.

Whoa.

Whoa.

By far the most potent source of energy is gravity.

Using it as power, future aircraft will attain the speed of light.

Holy shit.

And

Bell says, like, you know, we're experimenting with nuclear fuels to cancel out gravity.

Richard Arnawit and Stanley Dessard.

Really, they They have a diagram of how it would work.

It's what?

Protective boundary layer.

Yep.

Cabin, electronic rockets, gravity generator.

They talk about gravity particles.

Stanley Desser and Richard Arnawit at Princeton are studying that.

So what do you think was going on?

I think they were deeply investigating anti-gravity.

I mean, there is...

But do you think they had a working model?

I think they had an effect.

called the Biefield-Brown effect that showed that you could couple electromagnetism and gravity at a base level and you could do it in a vacuum, which rules out ionized air as the possible reason for thrust.

So I'll back up and I'll just give you what the experiment is.

So it's you take a capacitor, right?

And so a capacitor is a positive electrode and a negative electrode.

It's an asymmetric capacitor.

So the negative electrode is bigger than the positive capacitor.

And the two are

in between the two is an insulator called the high K dielectric.

So it's a material that stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.

You pump the entire thing with high voltage and low current electricity.

And Brown used to do it with DC, direct current pulses.

And you see thrust going from the negative to the positive.

And if you do that in air, then you can always say that it's ionized air because ions are being produced and then you get this equal and opposite reaction with the wind and then you get this thrust, right?

So that's not breaking physics.

If you do this in a depressurized vacuum chamber

where there basically is no air to

create this kind of equal and opposite force for the thrust, then you are breaking physics as we know it.

There are other things that break physics as we know it.

You had Sonny White on.

He talked about like the Casimir effect,

which is a real effect that involves

not charged but conductive plates that are very close to each other that seem to attract.

There's the Arnoff-Bohm effect, which might be explained by the electromagnetic four potential.

There are other effects in physics where you can't quite explain it in the current model, but they are harbingers, if you will, of the next paradigm.

I believe that when you find an anomaly, it is...

pointing towards the next scientific paradigm.

Black body radiation is a great example.

It was discovered in the 1870s by a guy named Gustav Kirchhoff.

We could not explain it until the quantum revolution with Max Planck, where he actually discovered quanta.

The orbit of Mercury is another good example, where we didn't understand, you know, we couldn't calculate Mercury's orbit until we had space-time curvature and Einstein.

So Newton didn't quite explain it.

So my belief is the Bifield-Brown effect is an anomaly that seemed to ostensibly, visually, unify the field.

Or it's pointing towards something else gravitational shielding or it's pointing towards how putoff stuff around you know quantum vacuum fluctuations i don't know i don't have a great uh uh theor theory for how it works i don't think brown had an amazing theory for how it works but it's an effect that i think creates this tech tree of exotic electromagnetic propulsion that leads us to today.

It's an effect that's not supposed to happen.

And this,

what is this, Jamie?

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Is that it?

Bye-free throw.

That is.

vacuum.

Yeah,

that's a lateral propeller version of it.

And you don't have to listen to me, by the way.

The lead electrostatics guy at NASA is a guy named Charles Bueller.

He's been doing this for 20 years, and he's had access.

He's at Kennedy Space Center.

He is the lead.

They use electrostatics to clean dust off the lunar lander or whatever, because those particles are actually charged.

And super, he's the most senior guy in electrostatics.

And he says this is not a conventional electrostatic force.

And he attributes his work to Townsend Brown.

I could show you in an interview.

He literally says Townsend Brown was like the first guy to discover this.

He's updated it a bit.

He says that

it's not just sheer voltage.

You don't need to use megavoltage.

And actually electric field strength is the most important thing.

So we use kilovolts and he amps up the electric field strength in order to get more thrust.

But he has a whole company around this.

It's called Exodus Space.

So like you don't have to listen.

Another another very, you know, credentialed person if we're, if we're on that, a guy named Carl Nell, who I have reason to believe that some of Brown's work made it into the B-2 stealth bomber.

I don't think it's the anti-gravity part.

It's a part called electro-hydrodynamics that made it into the B-2 stealth bomber.

But the point is, I interviewed a guy who was the deputy CTO of Northrop Grumman, and he also was the Army representative of the UAP task force, along with David Grush, where they were investigating UFOs.

And he says, I was in a room filled with venture capitalists and entrepreneurs.

I was like, Carl, these people want actionable stuff.

Like, can you actually make progress with any of this UFO stuff?

Or is it all like kind of metaphysical, you know, and like kind of

not even wrong, as Feynman would say?

And he goes, well, if you want, you know, some actionable stuff, go watch Jesse's video on Thomas Townsend Brown.

And so, like, I've gotten this time and time again where I've had all these private experiences about, you know, with Brown, where I'm like, is anybody seeing this?

Like, this is crazy.

and

it's you know I don't know it's weird so let's take this back to when was Brown conducting these experiments

experiments initially yeah what year was this the early 20s so like 1923 24 range whoa he was a child prodigy so their newspaper Clement he was from Zanesville Ohio he was born in 1905 in 1915

he was you know caught in the garden or whatever using charged rods to get worms to ascend to the top of the soil.

Then, at age 12,

the World War government under Woodrow Wilson, it was probably the local government, told him to take down a wireless transmitter that he had created, an antenna that he had created, like this walkie-talkie system that he had developed at the time.

And there's newspaper clippings talking about this at the time that totally corroborate this.

He then goes to Caltech.

He studies under a guy named Robert Millikan, who's actually a really well-respected physicist who

helped develop Einstein's photoelectric effect or actually you know demonstrated experimentally.

Milliken doesn't really give him the time of day on the Bifield-Brown effect.

And the way he discovered the effect is actually he was using Coolidge X-ray tubes.

So these are really early X-ray tubes and they have every X-ray tube has or every Coolidge tube has

a cathode and an anode, so a negative and a positive electrode.

And he would pump it full of

high voltage electricity and the wire would jump.

And then he would, he would actually, he would put it in a fixed chassis and it would keep jumping.

And then he would suspend it from, you know, the ceiling and it would keep jumping.

And he was like, what's going on?

Like, this isn't supposed to happen.

And there are ways to, again, explain that away via traditional electrostatics.

So he later got the idea to do this in a vacuum chamber and really prove it.

But after Caltech, he then goes to Denison University where he studies.

under a guy named Paul Alfred Byfield.

And Denison University for the longest time has denied that relationship.

And now they're admitting it, which I find really funny.

The archivist there is now admitting it.

There is an affidavit from the Navy where Paul Alfred Biefeld signs a letter saying, I witnessed this effect.

It's an anomalous effect.

From there, he goes on and it's witnessed by a guy named Victor Bertrandius, who's at the Wright Patterson, Wright Airfield at the time, flight test division.

He's working with Colonel Albert Boyd on all the crazy flight tests.

In 1952, he says, believe it or not, I saw a model of a flying saucer and I was frightened.

And I'm frightened for it getting out because, and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, because I believe it's in the stage of early atomic development.

And that's in 1952.

He then shows

a fan precipitator experiment, which really shows the electro hydrodynamic effect, which is similar, but not the same as the electromagnetism gravity thing, to Edward Teller, the father of the H-bomb.

And Edward Teller himself says, I don't know how this works.

And then his wife turns to Townsend Brown's daughter.

And I have this, by the way, on a phone call with Townsend Brown's daughter, who's saying, this all happened,

turns to

her.

And she says, I've never heard him say that because he's such a genius.

I mean, he was a Hungarian, brilliant, you know, father of the H-bomb.

And

so you have all these interesting eyewitnesses.

Brown was an associate of Bill Lear.

You have video of Bill Lear and Townsend Brown together in a lab in the Bainson Lab in North Carolina together.

In fact, there's a Chapel Hill conference in 1957, which is basically creates quantum gravity, of which the offshoot is string theory.

And actually, Eric Weinstein talked about it on your show.

It's at the Institute of Field Physics in North Carolina, Chapel Hill.

They are funding Brown's work in the back room, and there is video of Brown working on his experiments, working under Agnew Bainson.

And in that 1971 Australian intelligence memo, you have all these outposts of anti-gravity research.

University of North Carolina is one of those outposts.

It's crazy.

And it says the CIA's Office of Scientific Intelligence is coordinating all of this stuff.

The president of University of North Carolina in the 50s around this time is a guy named Gordon Gray, who's a super spooky guy who's

he

revoked Oppenheimer's Q clearance.

And he's also implicated in these sort of MJ 12 documents, which I don't necessarily want to mush in with Brown.

It has to be viewed through that sort of passage material, like limited hangout lens.

But Gordon Gray is this very interesting character.

The point is that the people who were sending physics down the wrong path with the Chapel Hill Conference, and this is a conference in 1957 that convenes the top theoretical physicists in the world.

Freeman Dyson, Peter Bergman, Feynman was there, John Wheeler was there, Bryce DeWitt, all these people.

At the same time, they were funding in the back room this kind of zany inventor, Townsend Brown, who is performing these experiments in vacuum chambers.

And there's video of him popping champagne, where it's like, why are you popping champagne?

Probably because you got a successful experiment.

That was the second time

he had tested this in a vacuum.

So again,

it's eliminating this sort of ionized wind effect.

Before that, a year before that,

in Paris at the Montgolfier facilities, he performed this in a vacuum.

And this guy named Jacques Corneone was this.

He died in 2009, but Townsend Brown's biographer has him on record in a phone call that is recorded saying the tests were very tricky, but in the end, we got it to work.

And he's on his deathbed and he's saying all this.

And you have an 120-page or 125-page report for the Montgolfier Project.

And when Brown comes back to America, he's picked up, according to his daughter, Linda, by a guy named Robert Saarbacher, who runs rampant.

I mean, there's so many Saarbacher stories when it comes to UFOs.

He says that UFOs are classified at two points higher than the H-bomb.

He's talking to this guy, Wilbert Smith, who's this magnetics expert in Canada about their experimentations

with UFOs.

And so he's the guy that picks up, and he's head of Washington National Labs and running research and development for Vannevar Bush at the time.

And he's the guy who picks up Brown where it's like, okay, we've got to take this seriously because you've got it to work in a vacuum.

The idea that they've kept all this secret for all these years seems impossible.

I don't think it is.

To me.

Yeah, sure.

I mean, I'm sure it's not.

You know what I mean?

But from my limited understanding of how things work and secretive government projects, that they could have a gravity propulsion system in place for decades.

Yeah.

It seems crazy to me, but he had something, Brown had something called his wounded prairie chicken routine, which is basically showing people something called, it was basically the electrohydrodynamic effect, which is not the electrogravitic effect.

So these are two very different things.

One is coupling, again, electromagnetism and gravity somehow or creating some gravity shielding or whatever.

You can do this in a vacuum.

And then the other thing is what you can see on YouTube videos, which is associated with Townsend Brown, where you have

basically these balsa wood structures.

You have tin foil at the bottom and you have a copper wire at the top.

The copper wire is the positive electrode.

The tin foil is the negative electrode.

The copper wire is producing ions, which is creating thrust because those neutral ions are bombarding the wind, which is creating thrust in a certain direction.

So that is an experiment that is 95% similar to the electrogravitic thing.

It wears the mantle of being electrogravitic, but it's actually using this other principle that you can just describe using normal physics and Newton's laws.

Well, what about material science?

Like, what about the actual structure itself?

You know, because this is where it gets really weird, right?

These nano layers

of

whatever the material is that's being used.

What was the

bismuth?

So this is what's crazy.

So magnesium bismuth shows up a lot.

It shows up in Thomas Townsend Brown's Winterhaven proposal in 1954, where he's describing these electrogravitic effects because it's a high K dielectric.

It stores a lot of electromagnetic charge.

But it also shows up, there's actually an interview with Lewis Witten, who's the father of Ed Witten, who's this master string theorist that Eric Wine says is the Michael Jordan of physics, you know, on your show.

And

he, Lewis Witten says, there was a guy named Townsend who discovered an isotope of bismuth that would repel instead of attracting.

Who's named Townsend at that time?

It's clear he's talking about Townsend Brown.

If you actually look at Gary Nolan's samples that he's, Gary Nolan is, you know, a PhD at Stanford, he's a tenured professor, and

he has, you know, spun out multiple nine-figure companies in biotechnology.

Really smart guy.

He runs the Seoul Foundation.

They're studying sort of, you know, non-human intelligence.

He has these samples, various samples of different crash materials that he's gotten from Jacques Vallet, who you've had on, is the French godfather of ufology, who, you know, his address is posted online.

If you see a crash, you send it to Jacques.

Jacques.

you know, sends a lot of his materials to Gary.

One of the materials is magnesium bismuth.

And this was apparently, I believe this was the material that they found around the Roswell crash, I think.

And magnesium bismuth is a high K dielectric, and it's

over and over again, it's mentioned by Thomas Townsend Brown.

So you have this weird thing around the material that creates more thrust via these anti-gravity experiments is also showing up in UFO lore.

Do you explore the possibility the Roswell crash was not

from

world?

That's where it gets weird, man, because that was early.

That was July of 1947.

Right, like, so the bismuth thing, like, when you're talking about the way this stuff is layered, that's where it gets really weird, right?

That's where

it's like micron-layered, like, thinner than human hair, is I think the Hal Putoff quote on this.

And I don't know the provenance on that.

And I don't know, you know, per games being played in this space, I don't know if that actually came from the Roswell crash.

If it didn't come from the Roswell crash,

like let's imagine, is it possible to make that stuff today?

And with those layers?

Hal put off would say no, and it's probably beyond my material science knowledge, but

I don't know.

People who are very smart on this subject, like Hal and Gary, who I speak to, you know, at a decent frequency, say no.

Okay, so if they say no, maybe they're wrong.

Maybe there is a lab somewhere that can recreate it.

But could they recreate it at scale?

Like, could they 3D print that to something that you could actually get people inside and fly around?

And then could that have been done in 1947?

That's where it gets super fucking weird.

It gets super weird.

Because

there's some leaps, right?

Okay, we had the H-bomb.

We had atomic energy.

We had a lot of stuff back then.

They split the atom.

There's some really incredible advances.

I don't believe we had anti-gravity.

If I track Brown's stuff at the time, which I think he was kind of the tip of the spear on this stuff, he was using these capacitor models and trying to get that experimentally proven and sometimes being thwarted via like you know mainstream academic circles at that time.

Like the Chapel Hill conference was much later, and that's where he's like kind of officially proving this stuff in the U.S.

government context in 1957.

So I do not believe that the Roswell crash is easily explained by an anti-gravity, early anti-gravity.

Kelly Goddard, who is a father of American rocketry, was doing rocket testing at around roswell at the time like and like and so that's like total chemical combustion you had v2s at the time where you know yeah that was top of the line opens up the door to the possibility of back engineering absolutely which is where it gets really weird so now it's we're not dealing with hidden science we're not dealing with top secret compartmentalized like you know need to know everything's pushed away into skunk works and wherever the fuck it's done you're talking about something that's not from here Well, it's interesting you say back engineering.

In 1949, there is a contract that anybody can look up.

I put it on the doc, Jamie, between Wright-Patterson, there was a Wright Airfield at the time and Battell Memorial Institute.

And you have...

Jamie's eyes light up.

And you got, shout out Columbus, Ohio.

All roads lead to Ohio.

Right.

And you have all these

titanium alloys.

And one of them is called nitinol, which is a nickel titanium alloy.

So this is 49.

This is 1949.

And so if you have, you know,

Army intelligence officer, you know, Jesse Marcel says that he picks up the crash material.

And he says that it was like this shape metal, memory metal thing that you would kind of, you know, mess with it and it would go back into its original form, right?

It was like this kind of like tinfoily-like thing.

And so nitinol was found at a Navy lab in the 60s.

That was when it was actually fully published.

But you have this contract between

Wright Airfield and Battell Memorial Institute where you have nitinol

as one of the metals that they're testing.

Not only that,

in 2012,

they used the Freedom of Information Act to figure out that a guy named Elroy John Center, E.J.

Center, was one of the co-authors of that paper.

Elroy John Center died, I think, in 1991.

Before that, he had told two MUFON UFO researchers nick nickerson and irene scott and they presented this at mufon in ohio in 1992 they said this guy was this metallurgist he worked at patel again he's been foyed as part of this paper and he says i uh uh uh worked on alien material and that there were weird hieroglyphics on it and that i had to i had to like you know i was i was i was a he was a chemist and so he had to look at like um metal impurities but he was also meant to decipher the

hieroglyphics on it or whatever.

And so I don't know, was Nittanall maybe just inspired by the stuff that Marcel recovered?

Because obviously the rumors are that the Roswell crash records ended up at Wright Airfield.

Or was it this one-to-one thing?

And E.J.

Center is at the center of it, no pun intended, where he's FOIA in 2012 and he says he has these UF, he's looking at UFO material and he's on record working at Patel.

You can look that up.

Well, not only is there record that the Roswell crash was brought to Wright, but that it was brought in two separate jets in case it crashed

and that Truman met them there.

Yep.

I don't know if that's true.

I need to know that.

I want to see a photo of the fucking hieroglyphs.

I know.

Could you imagine the glimpse at alien writing?

Do you think that would be amazing?

Do you think you have a better chance now than ever at being because you interviewed Trump?

Would Trump let you be the disclosure guy?

And I could be the water boy on the side making sure that the people who are going to be able to do it.

He did if that's possible.

I don't think they tell Trump shit.

I think they would withhold that from him.

Why would you tell that guy?

Yeah.

I mean, that guy's a substitute teacher as far as the government's concerned.

I mean, he's doing a lot of wild stuff in terms of like, you know, withholding funding for Harvard and all these different things and the border stuff and the ICE stuff.

There's a lot of stuff that I think is allowed to go go on.

But I think if you get to the highest levels of technological sophistication, black budget stuff that has been kept under wraps for fucking decades, you think they're going to tell the guy who is the host of The Apprentice?

I don't think they tell him because I think he's only in there for four years.

Probably not with two caveats.

One is his son, Don Jr., interviewed him and said, what do you think happened at Roswell?

And he said, well, I think there's something very interesting that might have happened.

Yeah, that's all he ever says.

And he says it was on your show, too.

He doesn't spill the beans at all.

But I mean, maybe he doesn't spill the beans because he doesn't know where the beans are.

Right.

Maybe he's looking for more of a smoking gun.

Like, he needs to know more.

Is that really his primary concern?

He's a 78-year-old man who doesn't do drugs.

Like, is

you know, he said no psychedelic experiences.

Maybe he's not even interested in this concept.

I think about that sometimes with people on the Hill that I speak to, where I'm like, can you just like, I'm giving you all this info.

Can you think outside the box?

Figure it out.

And they don't compute it.

There's some, there's a person who, like, you're the archetype of this, who's like so fascinated by it.

Right.

And then there is a person who goes, but I got to pay taxes, dude.

Yeah, they have to get re-elected.

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Yeah, you'd have to find someone whose primary concern is that, And that bug has to bite you.

You have to get infected with UFO Lyme disease.

If you don't, you're not going to want to release all this stuff.

And I don't think Trump is infected.

I mean, I think his,

even the way he describes these things is very different than the way he describes other things.

Like, he famously was talking to Steve Hilton.

And

it was one of the few times in history that a sitting president has mentioned the military-industrial complex wanting to go to war.

These guys want to go to war.

And he was saying that in that interview.

And I remember thinking, like, wow, that is wild to hear him say to a guy on Fox News that there's factions in this

incredibly dense complex of corporations and defense contractors, and there's insane amounts of money involved, and these guys want to go to war.

And he was saying that in that interview, and I'm like, this is, I mean, this is what Eisenhower said when he was leaving office.

Straight up.

Yeah, straight up.

There's a straight line between then and now.

And it feels like it's hitting this apex where we're involved in it.

It's like you had the Civil War, you know, 1861.

Now we have like...

a deep state war going on where it's like Tulsi's going in there as an outsider and this like light warrior and she's being like red teamed and attacked and she doesn't know who's on her side.

Yeah.

It's crazy.

Yeah.

It's it's pretty wild.

It's It's pretty wild how nothing gets done.

And, you know, and it's set up so nothing gets done.

But my point is that Trump, his response to that is an informed response.

Like, there's this military-industrial complex.

These people want to go to war.

He doesn't talk about this UAP thing that way.

I've seen some things,

crazy things.

What is that?

What are you saying?

Like, be specific.

You're handsome pilots.

They'll crew cuts like you.

They look nice.

Good guys, nice guys, good Americans.

Like,

what do you know?

Didn't he say something on your podcast about men from Mars or something?

He goes, the people from Mars or something.

Anyway, it's hard with him because he speaks in this sing-song-y, oversimplified way.

And he rants.

And he rants.

And well, he's got a strong rant muscle, right?

Because he does these stadium tours where he goes to these enormous places and he basically just works without a script.

So it's like he's got a rant muscle.

There's a few people, like Tim Dylan is the best comedian who has a rant muscle.

So good.

He just can rant.

You just like get a microphone in front of him and a subject, and he knows what to say.

Trump has that muscle.

He's developed that muscle over all these years of campaigning.

And so it's really hard to interview him because he just essentially turns on that rant muscle when the mic's on.

And you got to like interject.

Like, hold on.

Okay.

But what are you saying?

Like, what do you know?

Like, what do you know?

Like, will you release this information?

Like, what?

If you found out that for sure we have been visited and that we are in possession of crashed UFOs that were not made by China, they were not made by Russia, they're not made by America, they're from another civilization that we don't understand, would you tell us?

What do you think he would say?

There's a lot of information.

I don't know if I could release it.

I don't know if they'd let me.

You know, like, I don't know

what holds it back.

I want to know if he's in it.

Did you see Age of the Disclosure?

I didn't, actually.

You should.

It's really good.

I mean, I don't know how you would see it right now because it's not released yet.

And I don't know what they're doing as far as getting it released.

Did you come out believing more and more skeptical?

What was your both?

Both with like with all of it.

I think some is bullshit.

Some of it is misinformation.

Some of it is

they're releasing this slow trickle.

Like if it all is real, I think the strategy is to slowly get us accustomed to the concept, just the idea that we're not alone, and just get it in there.

Okay, first step, first shot across the bow, 2017, New York Times.

New York Times says, not of this world.

Oh my God.

You know, you see the pictures of the gimbal and the go fast and you're like, okay, all right, now we're talking.

But that's eight fucking years ago, right?

Nothing real significant in eight years.

And so then you have sightings, you have these, you know, different pilots, Commander Fraver, he comes out, he does podcasts.

You have Ryan Graves, he comes down and does podcasts.

You know, you have Lou Elizondo, everybody's talking, no one's showing you shit.

You have Fowler, who you had on your show.

I had Fowler.

What did you think of him?

I thought that...

They've got to show data.

They have on their website like a container for the data.

They haven't populated it yet.

I want to see the data, and I want to see a scientist who they don't have to be a debunker or a skeptic, but they have to kind of go in being like, I don't know what UFOs are.

Like, I don't know anything about this stuff.

What is that?

And like vetting it.

Now, being as deep as I am in UFO research, we're like, I know there's a nuclear connection.

There's a great book by a guy named Robert Hastings called UFOs and Nukes, and it's like 600 pages.

And it is 167 Q-cleared ICBM security personnel, radar operators, employees at nuclear bases where they're saying they see Tic Tacs, orbs, saucers, all sorts of stuff flying around our nuclear sites, often disarming the nukes.

And so it's always tough to answer that question where you're like, what do you think of Skywatcher?

I'm like, if I don't have that ontology where like UFOs are showing up around nukes constantly, which I'm deep in this and they do.

They show up all around the world.

There is a town in Japan called Eno, which is next to the Fukushima Prefecture.

Fukushima is famous for its civilian nuclear grid, which was built in the 1970s.

It has a museum dedicated to to UFOs in the 90s that they built.

Everybody there is obsessed with UFOs.

Vice did a documentary in 2022 because they are obsessed with UFOs.

They're geomagnetic anomalies they found all over this mountain.

Sengan Mori there and their UFO researchers there.

And like everybody in that town believes in UFOs.

Barraloche, Argentina.

1995,

you have a commercial pilot.

They're famous for, again, civilian nuclear grid.

Commercial pilot at Aerolinas, Argentinas, or whatever.

Famous UFO sighting, it shuts down the power at the airport and the thing has to,

the plane can't land and then it goes around in a circle and there are people on the flight who have been interviewed.

It's on the YouTube video.

It's pretty simple and easy to digest.

Even Roswell, 1947, the largest stockpile of American nuclear weapons to date.

at that time, 1947.

So there are all these declassified documents.

In 1949, there was an emergency meeting, declassified Air Force

document that is verified between Air Force Office of Special Investigations, Army Counterintelligence, Army CIC, FBI, Office of Naval Intelligence.

All these guys are emergency meeting because they're freaked out at how much UFOs are showing up around nuclear sites across the U.S.

In 1952, there's a Look magazine article where Captain Edward J.

Rupelt, who's kind of marginalized pre-Blue Book really taking off with Jalen Hynek, who I think was basically a disinfo agent, where he's...

I do.

Yeah, and he's claimed to have like gotten better and kind of be you know like like I he admitted his part in the cover-up, but then I think he kept going on with some some

fuckery.

Yeah,

yeah, so there's so if you don't have that ontology, there's even there's um Vasily Alexeyev is a Russian general and in a German magazine from 2000, he's interviewed and he talks about how UFOs show up at the forefront of human ingenuity and advancement.

And when we transport certain material, the UFOs show up.

In chapter nine of The Invisible College by Jacques Vallet, he talks about the UFOs being this sort of autonomous control system.

And when we, you know, it's like a node lights up, like when we engage in super advanced research or something, he talks about ways to interfere with the control system, but that are very dangerous.

So if you don't have that ontology, like, yeah, me saying like these dudes are out with their mobile construction unit like in the desert, like, you know, getting stuff to show up, you're going to be be like, that's a fucking Mylar balloon.

I'm sorry.

But because

if you have that, if you accept that data set and don't just dismiss it kind of firsthand, I do think they can get stuff to show up.

What they're getting to show up, I don't know.

Can they get it to land?

I don't know.

So can you explain how they're getting this stuff to show up?

What signals are they putting out there that represent something to these, supposedly something to these UAPs?

Unfortunately, they kind of black box it.

And so I have to assume it's either nuclear.

They do say that they have a dog whistle, which is a certain frequency.

There is a frequency floating around online that somebody claims to have doxxed.

That might be their thing, but I don't want to say that that's definitely their thing.

So there are...

But the idea is they call them.

They call them.

They use something to send a signal out there, and then these crafts respond.

Is it 100% of the time?

They say that the dog whistle works 100% of the time.

And they have a combination of mechanical means of attracting UFOs and of, this is really weird, but humans trying to call in the UFOs.

I've heard that before, right?

Yeah, CE5 is sort of a comment.

I'm going to post that on our show, I don't think, but is that what you're talking about?

I don't want to make it.

That might be it.

Yeah, 2.5k.

What do you not want to make, John?

I don't know.

Do you want me to show this or not?

I don't know if you're saying it's bad.

I don't want to give it away.

No, I'm not saying it's bad.

I don't think it's.

It seems like it's on.

I think it's fine.

I don't think

Skywatcher would say that that's definitely

endorsed that as their thing, because they kind of black box it.

But that could be.

That could be real.

So what it's saying,

want to know how to make the dog whistle for summoning UAP, here's how, super easy.

What's his signal?

7.83 hertz carrier via modulated 100 hertz bass tone, Schumann resonance.

Do you understand any of this?

Me?

Yeah.

Do you know what they're saying?

Well, I guess Schumann resonance is the kind of electromagnetic frequency of the Earth itself.

And so I don't know what that means, modulated via the trend.

What is this?

528 Hertz harmonic spiritual frequency?

What is that?

That's a low tone.

I don't know.

Is that what it is, Jamie?

I just know the numbers.

So when you get up to 17K,

that's a high.

That's a real high-pitched.

Oh, and the high numbers like that are low?

Yeah, and then low is

just thousand and then not thousand.

So 20 hertz is as low as you can hear.

That's like a low bass sound.

So I guess there's being generated out of some sort of machine, which doesn't say here on what you need to generate it, but I don't know if you just play it on a piano or anything, you know.

Interesting.

And then organic, 2.5 hertz chirps every 10 seconds, like creature calls, giving it a unique signature.

Huh.

I don't know where he would get this.

It used to be a kook.

There's so many kooks out there.

There are a lot.

Boy, there's so many kooks.

There's so many kooks.

Kooks and grifters.

It's infiltrated.

It's every.

So my contrarian take about UFOs is there are so many kooks and grifters, but there are more people with ulterior motives who are telling partial truths than full kooks and grifters.

Yeah.

And that makes it so complicated because you're like, you're bad vibes and you like are doing some controlled opposition thing, but like I have to listen to you because you have some interesting info.

Right.

That's the problem.

That's you talking.

I've had conversations with people like that where I'm talking to them like, I think you're at least partially full shit, but like, keep going.

Yeah.

Tell me more.

Yeah, totally.

You're like, I know there's some stuff and then I know there's some bullshit you're giving me.

And you want to see if I'll tell somebody else that bullshit and then track it.

Right, right, right.

It's this weird game.

Well, in the age of disclosure, one of the things they go into is that

if these programs have been running and if they have been back engineering crafts that are not of this world, there's a problem with lying to Congress because misappropriation of funds.

So anybody who did that is going to jail.

So what they're calling for is mass amnesty.

They're calling to say, hey, you know, we've got to give amnesty to these people that were involved in this program.

Otherwise, we're never going to learn anything.

And then there's the problem with corporations.

So if you give this to Lockheed Martin, you know, what does General Electric think about that?

Well, hey, you motherfuckers, how come you didn't include us?

So then they want to sue.

So then they sue the federal government for, you know, whatever, interfering with competition.

Yes.

So there are all those issues.

And right now, the UAP Disclosure Act is up again.

It was killed by a guy named Mike Turner who has a bunch of aerospace.

The fuck, Mike.

Mike, come on, Mike Turner.

Come on, Mike.

He's out now.

Oh, yeah.

And guess what?

He represented Dayton, Ohio, where Wright-Patterson Air Force Base is.

And Jamie.

Sorry, Jamie.

Jamie gets so excited when you bring up Battelle and all the Ohio shit.

We've gone deep.

I mean, Battelle is very implicated in all this stuff.

From the 40s.

From the 40s.

From the 40s.

The All-Domain Anomalies Resolution Office, which is like the authoritative office that is, I think, the modern blue book that's, you know, basically saying, don't look here.

Like, this is all bullshit or whatever.

It's run by a guy named Sean Kirkpatrick.

He has all these like atomic connections.

He like worked at Oak Ridge, for God's sake.

The guy that formed Arrow.

Upon whose recommendation Arrow was formed is a guy named Ed Moultrie, who is Under Secretary of Defense for Intelligence.

And he was on Battelle's board, and he scrubbed that from his LinkedIn.

And my good friend UAP Gerb, who is an amazing channel, he's a super deep UFO researcher, showed that

this was on his resume and then he recommends that arrow forms.

It's like the total conflict of interest.

It's insane.

It's insane.

Yeah.

There's so many bottlenecks to disclosure, like legal bottlenecks.

Yes.

Yeah.

Especially the misappropriation of funds.

I mean, how much money was involved?

Well, you must be talking about billions and billions and billions of dollars if all these programs are real.

So if they've been lying to Congress.

It's on the order.

It has to be on.

And it's funny.

A lot of modern disclosure talks about OSAP and ATIP, these programs from 2007 to 2012, kind of under the auspice of Harry Reid.

And that budget was $22 million.

A single F-35 costs four times that.

The B-2

costs like $2 billion.

Like, give me a break.

The nature of reality, you're going to spend 22 million dollars on so it's funny how the whole conversation is on this like clearly this thing to like get more civilian eyes on the issue maybe see what they can figure out or whatever the core program if there is a core program which obviously I believe there's a core program it's on the order of that speech that you've often cited that Donald Rumsfeld made on September 10th 2001 where he said two trillion dollars was missing from the Pentagon's budget it's shit like that or this woman named Catherine Austin Fitz, who was just on Tucker Carlson, who was at Housing and Urban Development under George Bush 41, where she's talking about underground tunnel systems and billions of dollars missing in the budget.

It is not this little $10, $20 million.

She's talking about a $21 trillion breakaway civilization that's been developed.

Yeah.

What?

Yeah.

And she says it at a moment.

First of all, she's citing Richard Dolan, who Richard Dolan is like hardcore UFO researcher, half that interview, and Tucker Carlson doesn't know who Richard Dolan is, so it's a funny thing.

And then she go, and then he's like, where are the funds being used?

And she goes, space.

And it's like, well, the where?

It's not being used.

SpaceX is supposed to be the tip of the spear, right?

Right.

SpaceX Blue Origin.

So like, what do you mean space?

SpaceX is basically like those fucking go-karts that people send down hills with no engines.

Right.

You know what I mean?

Like, what are those things called?

You know, those things when they have races where people

they make their own little down-the-hill X derby?

Oh, no, no, the...

Yeah.

Yeah.

Soapbox is the little soapboxes.

Yeah, that's what it's like.

Yeah, that's what SpaceX is.

Yeah, exactly.

If we have any of this shit, that's what SpaceX is.

It's using really ancient technology to achieve these results.

It's business model.

And I think Elon's amazing.

He's single-handedly resuscitated NASA, but it is a

Earth-based space company.

I think he keeps stuff secret.

He does.

He absolutely keeps stuff secret.

When he tells me there's no evidence of aliens,

there's something about it that just stinks.

When he's saying it, I'm like, okay.

So

I look at Adam.

Yeah.

Nothing?

Yeah.

You don't think nothing?

I'll pop something.

I just want to see if Jesse's heard of this before.

I found, I stumbled down this when you guys were talking about some stealth project.

This is an article from Wired in 1994.

I looked up the guy who wrote it.

He's writing a bunch of articles about the black budget back then.

And he's talking about a guy named Steve Douglas who,

through monitoring,

the communications, he heard different pilots talking about what probably is the TR-3 Black Manta.

And then it says he's got a picture of it.

I couldn't find it anywhere online.

It's nothing even close comes up to it.

But this says he had a video of it, a picture.

I'm assuming some people have seen it.

Because it talks about it.

Then it goes into talking more and more about how

he did this.

And he says he's got files of them talking talking about all sorts of different planes at night.

You were mentioning the Mach 6 Aura when I was like, when you said that is when I found this on here.

That's fascinating.

I haven't seen it.

There's obviously tons of rumors about the TR-3A and the TR-3B.

The Belgian wave occurred around this time.

I think it was like late 80s, early 90s.

I think a lot of the triangle craft that people see are human.

It's just, it's a direct.

The Phoenix light stuff.

Because a lot of people saw it during the Phoenix lights.

They saw the triangle craft.

Kurt Russell was actually flying his plane and saw the Phoenix Lights.

This is the one I brought up the other day that they said they think was in Desert Storm, and they just don't really have

any proof online today.

So

the TR-3B is the looks like the triangle thing that everybody's seen.

Yeah, look, what is the fucking center of it?

What is that all about?

Well, this is just probably someone made a photo trying to describe it.

The bottom of it is what everybody says.

What?

So the TR-3 series, that was built by Northrop, I believe.

Is that right?

Like, Aurora was lockied, and that was Aurora.

If you confirmed...

What does that look like?

No one knows.

This is like,

no one has any proof of these even existing.

All the talk online is back into the 90s of just like, do these exist?

We probably have them.

No one knows for sure.

So here's a weird...

Okay, so I think it's, this is North.

I think TR3, the TR3 series is Northrop.

So the connection between Northrop and Townsend Brown is in the mid-60s, Townsend Brown is being funded by a guy named Floyd Odlum.

Floyd Odlum is the majority owner of Northrop pre-merger with Grumman.

And so Townsend Brown is doing these experiments at Guidance Technologies, his outfit in Santa Monica.

This investment was inspired by Edward Teller seeing his experiment and freaking out.

He's doing these experiments.

Bill Lears actually has an office across the street.

They're doing all sorts of cool, innovative stuff.

He does a series of presentations.

Curtis LeMay, for the Rand Corporation, for all sorts of kind of, you know, head honchos when it comes comes to American military.

In 1967,

guidance technology shuts down with no explanation.

They say, you know, our results all failed.

But after a bunch of these, a series of these high-level meetings, that was at the end of 1967, three months later, at the beginning of 1968, Northrop publishes a paper called Electrodi Aerodynamics and Supersonic Flow, or in Supersonic Flow.

And it is basically paying homage to electro-hydrodynamics and Townsend Brown's work.

It is

exactly part and parcel Townsend Brown's work.

They then do a press release at the time.

They retract the press release because they are embarrassed.

Then later, Bill Scott at Aviation Week in, I think, 1992 says the B-2 surfs its own wave using the Bifield-Brown effect.

There's a guy who's known as the Duyen of British aviation journalism.

His name is Bill Gunston.

And he, in Air International magazine, is doing a survey-level overview of all aero engine tech since World War II.

And he says,

I'm familiar with the rudiments of Thomas Townsend Brown's work, but I don't want to end up in the Tower of London.

So I will refrain from talking about millions of volts charged positive to millions of volts charged negative on the trailing edge of the wing of the B-2 stealth bomber.

Yes.

What is the Tower of London?

What's that reference to?

He's just saying I don't want to end up in jail.

Tower of London is probably where Jack the Ripper ended up or whatever.

I don't think it was like in, you know, but he's like, don't get on my ass.

Surfs its own wave.

Surfs its own wave.

So if you put that electro aerodynamics and supersonic flow paper, which is available, you could put that into Chat GPT and be like, how can this confer an advantage to an airframe?

You can do that.

Yeah, you can do that.

I'll tell you what it's like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's wild.

I'll give you a bunch of answers if it wasn't.

So that's the paper.

Yeah.

How do I download it?

Electro-aerodynamics.

So my point,

if the TR-3A and B are real, like the B2 is still so locked down.

We sell F-35s to allied nations, Norway, Canada, whatever.

We don't sell B2s to anybody,

including Allied nations.

The ticket price is 2 billion.

They have a new version of the B2 that's I think like 700 million or whatever, but they weren't built at scale.

They're extremely locked down.

It's pretty crazy.

Wow.

So what would they be doing?

Like, how would it be surfing its own wave?

Like, what advantage would that confer?

If you do this chat GPT thing, it'll say it doesn't split the airflow as much.

And so you get more lift and there's reduced drag.

The shock wave is reduced.

The electric fields somehow interact with the particles at the boundary layer where the frame hits the air.

And so there are a bunch of theoretical things that are honestly probably a little above my pay grade, but that even conventional AI will tell you that it will do as far as being helped.

Gun to head, how far do you think they've gotten this stuff?

Man, I mean, this stuff was being, this was like 80s, and they were probably maybe building in the early 80s or maybe late 70s.

So definitely way farther than that.

So do you entertain the possibility that this thing that Lazar talked about that we see on the desk right there, the sport model,

do you think that that was ours?

That feels really hard for me to say in good faith because that was around the time that the BT was just being unveiled.

Also, no seams.

No seams.

It's 3D printed.

Totally.

Element 113 or 115 rather.

And this generator that nobody understands.

Yeah,

I think that is more of the variety of something that would crash in the New Mexico desert.

And this is where it gets weird because everybody wants a clean solution.

Everybody wants the anti-gravity, the UFOs to be a cover for the anti-gravity.

Including Lazar.

Like he said when he saw the sticker on it, there was an American flag sticker on the sport model.

He's like, oh, I get it.

These are ours.

That's why people keep seeing them.

And then as he starts examining these things, he's like, no.

Yep.

This is not ours.

Like, what the fuck is this?

This is meant for three foot tall things.

There's no controls in this.

Like, what is this?

If reality has a governor on it, and we're in weird territory, we're just talking about AI and all this stuff is just getting so weird.

Quantum computing.

If reality has a governor on it, like a governor on a motor, you take the governor off.

Do you get, is it like a hydra where you cut the head off and you get five in its place?

Or do you get one neat solution?

You don't get one neat solution.

Of course not.

It's a zoo of things.

And so at the time that like the government's kind of unraveling and all these, we have all these transparency initiatives or whatever, and you get these secret science lineages.

And then our our apertures are open people are waking up to greater realities the fact that the pandemic could even happen like is sort of so crazy and then it makes you question it's like what about the gulf of tonkin us maine and all these things

i think all of this stuff is coming out at the same time and it's not necessarily this neat solution where the anti-gravity just you know accounts for the ufos and the aliens right and the ufos and nukes stuff which was happening since the 40s right where it's like i don't i don't know how i i can't explain that via anti-gravity experiments.

And then there's a question of how many?

How many different civilizations visit us?

How many different things?

How many different versions of these things are there?

If this is like a testing ground,

is this open to the general public of space?

Also, not zero or one, probably zero or a hundred.

It's probably a zoo of things.

Right.

That's the most likely thing.

That was what was interesting about your episode that you did with Fowler, where they were documenting the different shapes.

And I'm like, okay, where's the flying saucer?

You don't have a flying saucer.

How come you don't have a flying saucer?

You have all these other shapes.

Totally.

You have a Tic-Tac, you have a Tetris or whatever the fuck it is.

Where's the one that everybody sees?

The iconic Billy Myers.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's weird.

Yeah.

You know?

It is weird.

Also, do you work for the CIA?

I do not.

I do not work for the CIA.

Do you have to answer if I ask you?

Is it like, you remember those movies where you ask a guy if they're an undercover cop?

You ask them if they're a cop, they have to tell you.

People really used to believe that, but it's just a fictional tool.

They don't really have to tell you that they're undercover cops.

They don't have to tell you.

But there is, I think, there's like one, two, two, triple three or whatever where, like, if you're CIA, you can't be fucking with domestic stuff, which I think they break all the fucking time.

So I don't think that's a reason.

They probably passed laws that bypassed that a long time ago.

For sure.

Well, yeah, I mean, I think they also killed JFK.

This is the Bainson Lab video.

There you go.

What's really crazy is that looks remarkably similar to the design that Lazar said the generator looks like that's inside the UFO.

Well, here's something crazy.

Lazar says there are two different gravities, gravity A and gravity B.

Again, I think Townsend Brown was a poor theorist, but he wrote a paper called The Structure of Space while he was at Martin Vega Corporation.

By the way, Townsend Brown started working at Martin Vega the year that Skunk Works formed, which I think is very interesting.

And he says in structure of space, there are two forms of gravity.

He says there are gravity wells and gravity hills.

And he talks about how the, yeah, it's crazy.

He talks about the protons in an atom outweighing the electrons.

And so you get this weak positive charge for all matter that creates a gravity well, like this inward pull.

But in fact, it's sort of this electromagnetic derivative or whatever in his model.

And again, I would not over-index on his theory.

I think there's tons of proof that he just figured out this topological physics effect and other people figured out theory.

Maybe even they just have like locally useful theories.

Ryan Graves was on your show and talked about extended electrodynamics.

Hal Putoff's probably the top tip of the spear as far as a lot of theory around this exotic stuff.

Sonny White, you know, other people like that.

But

yeah, it is interesting that both of these guys had two versions of gravity.

Yeah, it's very interesting.

It's very interesting.

And the Lazar stuff to me, it's if a guy's going to be a liar like that, he's going to tell a lot of lies.

Right.

It's not going to be just one lie from 89.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

yeah i mean that you basically say the same version of forever yeah

i mean the the

the other weird thing in that story is in messengers of deception jacques villa's book he talks about because he's not a believer in lazar he talks about lazar being forced to drink a liquid And Lazar even talks about this openly, that he was forced to drink a liquid and it tastes like pine or something.

And it causes memory lapses in certain cases.

So that's also a weird factor.

But there is so much, I think.

My buddy Luigi, I also have a good friend named Chris Ramsey who has an amazing UFO channel called Area 52, and he's met Lazar through Luigi, and I don't want to blow up their spot, but they've given me a lot of ammo as far as just Lazar being at Area 51 S4.

And so it's so fascinating.

So they gave him this liquid to kills memory?

What is the idea behind it?

I don't know if he knew the intent.

It was just drink this or whatever.

And then he said that it caused, at least in the Valet readout, he says that it caused memory lapses.

It's the quote in Messengers of Deception.

Hmm.

But here's this where it gets so confusing.

If you have, MKUltra was super widespread.

It was deleted, you know, the church committee or whatever.

But like it was, it was a very widespread program.

What would be one of the number one use cases where you'd use MKUltra?

It wouldn't necessarily be to trick somebody into saying that they saw a flying saucer.

It would be around the flying saucer program to fuck with the person's memory so that they couldn't read certain things out.

Right.

So it's just this, again, it's hard to say.

Well, then there's also weird stuff like the large folder that was on religion.

Yes.

You know, like how much of that is just misinformation?

I think a lot of that was passage material because it's similar to.

Passage material.

What does that mean?

It's basically stuff given to somebody where it's like certain provably false things.

You can track where the provably false stuff goes or whatever.

It's also a litmus test to see if they'll believe it.

It's like spooky intel shit.

And in 79, there's a guy named Rick Doty who drives a guy named Paul Benowitz insane, basically.

He views this vertically taken off and landing exotic craft at Kirtland Air Force Base where there are a lot of interesting things, you know, seen.

And

he

is shown similar things along with Linda Moulton Howe is taken in front of a two-way mirror.

And Rick Doty, this Air Force Office of Special Investigations agent, who we know is acting in bad faith at that time.

He's even come out and admitted this, shows her this thing called Project Garnett.

And it is oddly similar around accelerated evolution to the stuff that they showed Lazar.

Also, if you have a UFO program that's extremely compartmentalized, why at the same time give the person this like ontological model of reality while you're compartmentalizing them?

It doesn't make sense.

So, and this is what I love about Lazar.

Lazar will admit that like, he's like, I think a lot of that stuff could have been fake and bullshit.

And I only am relaying what I saw when, with regards to the craft, and I don't take any of that stuff fully at face value.

So there's Project Galileo,

there's Looking Glass, you know, there are these projects that were super interesting and spooky and I think worthy of engagement with like all these weird limited hangouts are.

Do any of these people that supposedly had had contact with extraterrestrial entities or interdimensional or whatever they are, do any any of these people recall a conversation where they warn us about AI?

That's such a great question.

I don't think so.

I don't think so either.

It's almost always nuclear.

That seems crazy.

Well, maybe.

That seems crazy that there's no discussion about you are on the verge of something truly spectacular.

Maybe AI is their control system.

Maybe they are AI.

Maybe they are AI.

Maybe AI becomes that.

Maybe biological limitations need to be traversed, and the best way to traverse them is to eliminate biology.

We are now experimenting with computational biology.

You can use things like, like this neuroscientist, Carl Fristen, the free energy print.

There's this company called Cortical Labs, and I think they might play up some of their results, but they use these microelectrode plate arrays, and they program...

like rat cultured rat neurons to do basic computational rat tasks.

And so like if that's the super base level, right?

Like we're just creating the like transistors for this like new model of computation.

But if you go way out into the future, you have anatomical compilers, 3D printers of bodies, and these things could be drone avatars.

That's why, when people are like, why do they crash?

This could be their Earth homeostasis kit that they've deployed.

They're just von Neumann replicator probes meant to

oversee the Earth.

And, you know, a little node lights up when we create nuclear or like an AI thing or like.

Well, it's also like Pasolka, you know, Diana Pesolka.

She thinks they're donations that's what she says yeah they're called donation sites and yeah like which is like if you want accelerated evolution like hey wouldn't it be cool if you guys made this just leave the wheel you know just look over here leave this leave that it kind of I mean that's the way to get someone to think outside the box plant the seed yeah you just you you don't want to wait for these morons to figure out how to make this if you were trying to accelerate technological evolution in North Sentinel Island which has no contact right with humans, what would you do?

You might just airdrop a computer, figure it out.

They'd be like, a computer?

You could start with a lighter.

Sure.

Yeah, yeah.

I think they have fun.

Yeah, yeah, a computer might be a little advanced.

Yeah, but yeah, you would give them some stuff.

Yep.

Yeah.

And let them figure out how to make that stuff and give them the raw materials to make that stuff.

Totally.

Especially if you have some complex alloy, like this bismuth, whatever the hell it is with layered, like find that, figure that out.

Can you make it?

You get your best scientists and you compartmentalize it.

You do it over decades because you really can't open it up.

And this is one of the things that Lazar said that he had deep frustration about while working at S4: Is that you can't do science like that where everything's compartmentalized.

You need to be able to open it up to collaboration.

You couldn't collaborate.

You weren't allowed to.

So it's like, we're not going to get anywhere.

Okay, we're going to bring in new people.

We're going to bring in a new guy, see if this new genius can do.

Hey, what do you think of this?

Like, what is it?

You tell me.

That could be a part of what's happening with disclosure where if you have cold war era secrecy it's like if we're ahead of russia and china clamp down we like can't let them know anything right but then all of a sudden maybe they play catch up and then all of a sudden maybe you have this archaic cargo cult system that doesn't work anymore to avoid foyer requests where you have restricted data covering you know material found by specific aerospace corporations that aren't even our best and brightest when it comes to our defense primes anymore or whatever.

And you're at the top of the national security pie and you're like, holy shit, like we need to update this stuff.

So we need to broaden the surface area without giving away the crown jewels.

We need some disclosure on these things.

You can't, it is maladaptive from a national security standpoint to have some STEM student in Kentucky who's a prodigy to not even think this shit is real.

Right, right, right.

And then you're dealing with China where they've got it completely opened up and they're like, make this.

Completely opened up.

And like, I don't know if you've read, there's a great Chinese science fiction novel called The Three Body Problem.

Great show on Netflix, too.

It's amazing.

And the CCP will show up at your door and say, come work for us.

You are working here.

And that's not really the way we do things.

So the way we do things is like, you get the stuff out and these kind of partial, limited hangouts and you go, go compete.

Like, just like the AI stuff.

Right.

You know, right.

It's like, see what happens.

Over there, if you leak it, they'll just fucking kill you.

Yeah, exactly.

You're not going to leak it.

No.

Yeah, yeah.

It's, to me, the

question of civilization.

Are we alone?

It is the question.

And I don't think we are.

Yeah.

That's

my gut instinct.

I don't think we are.

It seems so ridiculous when people do think we are.

I agree.

But what about the numbers?

Just the sheer numbers?

Like, it doesn't make any sense that this is so unique that we, in this one very tiny planet, it's spinning around a

not-so-special star.

Occam's razor is we are not alone.

You have the Fermi paradox, you have the Drake equation, you have all these sort of rationalist ways of arguing that, but also look at, there's a great book called The Half-Life of Facts by Sam Arbisman, and he talks about how like at any given time, 50% of

received knowledge, like our physical model of the universe is wrong.

So you can say those things are showing up in the sky, that is wrong because physics.

But historically, you would have been wrong.

Like, that's crazy.

It's a bad point, right?

And so, if you actually look at, you know, whether we're alone or not, modern Enlightenment history is a detour from the past.

If you look at every culture, whether it's Iamblichus or maybe a better example is medieval Christianity with St.

Thomas Aquinas, or just read the New Testament, like a multitude of angels.

You have angels and demons.

You know, that's kind of the passport to Magonia, Dyna Pasulco, American cosmic thesis.

Like, this stuff has been going on forever.

You look at the Devas and, you know, in Hindu culture, or the jinn and Islamic culture.

Like, we are outnumbered in our modern, you know, enlightenment, rational, skeptic epistemology.

Yeah, we really are.

And how many depictions from the past of flying things, Ezekiel from the Bible, Vimanas, all these different, like, what are they saying?

What are these things?

What do you think that stuff is?

Like, what is it?

You know, and but then again, you and I, neither one of us has had an experience.

So we're just like fucking

in the wind.

I've seen something.

I've seen a UFO.

What have you seen?

I've seen actually a few.

Really?

Yeah.

Yeah.

How have you been so lucky?

I don't know.

I don't know.

And it's because they know

they're working on it.

Who knows?

There are UFO researchers that don't like to talk about this, but I think the move is just be honest.

Like, I've seen the thing and I don't know what exactly.

I was in Laurel Canyon where I used to live, and I saw a thing that looked like a fucking school bus.

It looked like no visible propulsion, this like sort of low humming noise or whatever.

It was maybe 50, 60, 70 feet high, like above the tree, right above the treetops.

The trippiest part of the experience and why this is, it's just so weird is I was with

this woman I was kind of dating at the time.

We were taking a walk in Laurel Canyon and she was like,

are you into aliens?

I was like, actually, I kind kind of am into that.

I was kind of interested in that topic.

And then I think I joked back.

I was like, I kind of want to meet an alien.

And she was like, me too.

And then she goes,

you'll meet them when

you stop looking for them.

Oh, that bitch is an alien.

And then

this is the weirdest part of the whole story.

As we're walking, it's like sunset in Laurel Canyon.

We walk by a guy with a metal detector who's like, looking for something.

It's like, why are you looking for something at sunset and Laurel Canyon or whatever?

So so like that felt like this weird like

you know like mirroring of our conversation i again i have no fucking idea then we walk in into this little clearing and we see this like school bus thing like just go right over the tree what color was it it was silver metallic

like an airstream trailer like an air like an airstream trailer yeah i can send you guys a video i went on chris ramsey's podcast i described it and i was sent a video and for all i know this video is fucking fake by the way but it was the thing that looked most like what I saw because it doesn't match up with like the saucer

triangle thing.

Yeah.

And I don't know.

I'm almost more inclined to say discount my own thing over like the Q-cleared guys who've like seen these things at Newport.

What was it in the sky for?

It was in the sky for like a few seconds because we couldn't even see past the clearing or whatever.

She said she saw it go over the trees and then descend down into the distance.

I did not see that.

And like you're talking, Laurel Canyon has is like mostly residential.

So like, where did it descend?

Right.

So what else have you seen?

You said you saw more than one thing?

Yeah.

So another time I was actually with a friend who invests like with me and Peter and is like the most rational guy you'll ever meet.

Like he's a, he's a fan of like Noam Chomsky and like David Hume.

Like like he is a modern rationalist atheist skeptic.

And we went surfing that day.

We were were back at his place.

I was super into holotropic breath work at the time, which I love.

And

we were doing holotropic breathwork.

Five minutes in, we both see these like metallic looking orbs.

This was this time super high up

in the sky, like

probably, you know, higher than what you would, definitely way higher than a drone.

And one's bobbing above him, one's bobbing above me, similar to like the typical like orb that, you know, a lot of people sort of describe, like the Mosul orb or or whatever you know a lot of these sightings and

He looks at me and he I go like what the fuck is that he goes dude I think that's like some secret black Lockheed tech or whatever and then I don't even say anything two seconds goes by and then he looks at me and he goes dude that's not fucking from here he's like that's not Lockheed like I don't know what that is do you entertain the possibility there's states of consciousness that you could achieve where these things become visible absolutely and you've had Rick Strassman on He talks about, you know, DMT, the spirit molecule.

He talks about DMT as like night vision or like it's like a

goggles or a window.

You know, it's like Aldous Huxley, the doors of your perception.

Are you superimposing a hallucination onto reality?

Or are you just seeing?

We see a limited part of the electromagnetic wave spectrum.

We see between 400 and 700 nanometers.

Our audio range, you know, there's a certain decibel limit, right?

So like when you take a substance like that, are you seeing things things that are in objective reality, but we just don't have access to them?

It's actually adaptive for us not to have access to them in our waking reality.

And so it's this interesting philosophical question.

I don't know the answer to it.

Right.

Would we even be able to function if we had access to that?

Probably not.

Probably not.

No, it is.

There's a guy named Donald Hoffman who's a cognitive psychologist.

And he talks about, it's like, why don't we see electromagnetic waves themselves?

Like, why aren't you seeing Hertz frequencies?

It's, it's, we need to iconize everything we see, just like a, you know, desktop computer.

You know, like, why do you see red?

Because you, oh, boom, red, blood, got to run, you know, whatever.

And then they hack that with notifications on social media.

But the point is, we are seeing inherently a collapsed, condensed version of reality.

We aren't seeing the thing itself.

Yeah.

And so it ends up in these ontological loops where, like, yeah, some rationalist skeptic can be like, you're, you're lying.

That's full.

It ends up in this not-even wrong category of like, like I can't say that what I just said is definitively true as far as it being a window into some other realm but neither the skeptic we just live in the age of disenchantment where you say don't trust your eyes right and they're just that's as much faith-based dogma as what I'm saying so who knows and that's why I rest when I talk about this stuff on the show, I rest more on the nuclear cases because it fits to our modern epistemology more.

But it's not to say you should discount these, you know, people's experiences where they do, you know, maybe they're in a peak state of consciousness and they experience a thing.

Maybe that thing is real.

Either there might be multiple different types of things that come by.

And the nuclear one is a weird one.

I mean, if you were from another planet or some other place and you recognized an emerging civilization that had nuclear capabilities, you'd be like, hey, fuckers, slow down.

Hit the brake, son.

You would freak out.

Unquestionably.

That's why we named the rooms at the Comedy Mothership, Fat Man and Little Boy, because that's when they started showing up.

That's when we got a lot of sightings, was

post-the bombs.

Totally.

And

I love the mothership, by the way.

It's amazing.

And I love going and seeing how UFO theme, like,

in preparation for this, I've had a couple of friends be like, man, Joe's like anti-UFO, though.

And I'm like, no, he's just frustrated with disclosure.

Go to the mothership.

The whole fucking thing is getting so UFO.

Anti-UFO.

There's fucking UFOs everywhere.

There's one on the desk.

There's one behind the desk.

There.

I know.

That's so sad.

And you broke the biggest UFO story of all time.

Like, you've done more for disclosure than anybody, in my opinion.

Well, I'm not anti-UFO, but I'm allergic to bullshit.

And this stuff, some of it smells like bullshit, which is, I would be remiss if we didn't talk about those little mummies in Peru.

Yeah, dude.

What do you think is going on there?

They break my brain.

This was the most frustrating case I've ever had to deal with.

And I wish I could give you a definitive these things are definitely dead aliens.

I cannot say that definitively at all.

I do think there's a lot of reason to believe that they are forensically organisms.

They're organisms that if they're not, they're incredible works of art.

If they're not, they're the most sophisticated hoax ever that basically tricked forensic experts from

John McDowell, who just won the greatest award in forensics you could win or whatever,

the Grand Wall Wall Award, who is the president of the American Forensics Scientific Association or whatever in the U.S.

Jim Caruso, who's the medical examiner, chief medical examiner in Denver.

The equivalent of McDowell is a guy named Dr.

David Ruiz, so he's the Peruvian head of their forensics association, and the head of the Mexican Navy forensics, this guy named Dr.

Jose Salze.

All of these guys have seen...

So this is...

I think we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves.

Let's explain to people this so they can just stand alone.

Because a lot of people are like, what the fuck are you talking about?

What are you talking about?

There are these very small mummified-looking things that are in Peru that seem to look exactly like a

similar kind of thing to a human being, but varies enough that you know it's not us.

And it has more ribs, it has more spinal columns or

more discs.

This is what they look like.

And there's x-rays of them, and that's where it gets really weird.

And they're tridactyl, right?

So they have three fingers and three toes.

Yep.

And so these were discovered in 2015 in a cave by a guy named Leandro who goes by Mario.

And this is one of the headaches about the case is like we don't have good provenance on it.

So he is this Joaquero gravedigger guy.

And they were found in ditamaceous earth.

So there's actually an idea that they might not even be mummies.

Ditomaceous earth is a desiccant.

And so they were dried out.

and a lot of the organs are actually still inside the bodies.

And there are three different types.

There are S-types, which are these little winged creatures.

There are J types.

The J-types are probably, they were most popularized in this Mexican Congress where these things were outed in September of 2023, where they look like almost close encounters.

Jamie, if you scroll down, like you see that Peru's Congress, like right there.

Like that thing looks like this like jokey, like close encounters of the third kind.

It looks like

it it looks totally fake, right?

So that's those are the J-types.

They're like 25-ish, maybe 25 to 30 of them.

And then those are the ones that they've x-rayed.

And that's where it gets really weird.

The weirdest ones that I was talking about, the forensics people kind of evaluating, are these M-types.

These are like four to five feet.

They

look pretty anatomically consistent.

Have you seen them in person?

I have.

Really?

Yeah.

And what was your feeling?

My feeling was, it was this.

Can you cheat those images up, please?

It was, as with a lot of these things, oscillating between holy shit, this thing is not from here, and then dude, you have to like chill.

And like, there's so many other things, you know, there's so many other gates this has to get through for us to actually, you know, verify this stuff.

See if you can get the go to the x-rays, Jamie, find the images from the x-rays.

That's one, but there's one that's a little bit better because it's one of the fetal position.

It's

Jamie, in my documentary.

Yeah, actually, look at that one.

Okay, there you go.

So that one has eggs inside of it.

What?

If you go...

Yeah.

Montserrat.

It's hips.

Yeah.

How weird.

So if

you go to

the Montserrat clip, yeah.

So this one's pregnant and has what they are claiming to be a tridactyl fetus inside of it.

Yeah.

How many of these do they have?

So they have eight to ten of these M-types, these kind of most realistic looking ones.

Eight to 10.

Eight to 10.

And then they have 25 to 30 of the J types.

So yeah, look at that.

That's a 3D reconstruction of the CAT scan.

So they have teeth.

That's weird.

They have teeth.

Right.

Yeah.

They have tendons, they have bones, they have cartilage, they have organs inside.

And then, so this is where we need to verify stuff.

They even have actually.

Could you go back to the part of the video where what's that?

There it is.

Yeah, that part.

What the fuck is that, man?

That's crazy.

They have osmium and cadmium implants in them, which are rare earth metals that were discovered in the 19th century.

This is

art.

If someone made this, I need to buy one.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You need to tell me how much this costs.

I need to put it on my table because you're a genius.

If you've made that and you tricked everybody into thinking that that's real, you're a goddamn genius and you shouldn't just be hoaxing people.

So then the alternative is that's real.

If that's real, that's completely insane.

Joe, fortunately and unfortunately, fortunately for you, maybe, but unfortunately for the case, these Jai Caros, these gravediggers are selling some of these things on the black market.

And this case is the Wild, Wild West.

It is so

I've heard seven figures.

Seven figures.

I've heard a lot of money.

She's Louise.

Is Peter Thiel buying one of these?

Don't say yes.

Look at that thing.

It's wild.

It's so crazy.

But there are serious problems.

I want to caveat all of this.

And like, you know, I don't want to be overly sensationalist about this.

If it's a hoax, it's the best hoax ever.

It is the best.

My friend Michael Mazzola, who like kind of rolled the red carpet down, allowed me to even see these things.

He's making a video or making a documentary on this

that's coming out this August and it's called This Is Not a Hoax.

I told him to put in parentheses or this is the most sophisticated hoax ever

because the DNA testing sucks.

There's no signal, the signal-to-noise ratio sucks on the DNA.

How come?

Because

there was probably human contamination.

Like

the

NCBI, which is this like biotech repository where you have a lot of this genetic information on two of the bodies, Victoria and Maria,

this is all publicly available.

They've done analysis on this.

And like the camp that is very pro,

you know, these being alien is this guy, Jaime Massan.

And he is,

I actually think he's awesome.

I love him.

He's like this former 60 Minutes guy in Mexico, and he's paid a lot of money to protect a lot of these bodies.

He's very open about like, we just need more scientific research.

You know, he wants more eyes on this thing.

But some of the genetics, you know, some of the genetics researchers that they're basing this stuff on, I spoke to one of them.

This guy's name is Dr.

Ricardo Ronhell.

And he's a biologist.

I don't think he's actually a geneticist.

And his belief is like, he was like, this is, you know, there's 30% of this is like unknown DNA that we don't know.

And then in the 70%,

you have mitochondrial DNA from Myanmar.

And then you have

DNA from a parasite in Africa.

And you also have bonobose and chimpanzee DNA, which means it was an ancient primate that held this DNA

because it was before they phylogenetically split off.

So what he's saying, and this is crazy, is he was saying that like a

hominid species, an early hominid species went from Asia to Africa.

And because there's some theories that they actually, you know, East Africa is not like the first hominid species, maybe it was East Asia.

So it's already like kind of requiring some leaps of logic or whatever.

And then had sex with this like primate thing and you end up with this hybrid.

And then another leap of logic is that before Pizarro and all the conquistadors, like there's there's actually like transmission of

beings from Africa to South America.

I don't believe that.

It's crazy.

It's like saying the, you know, the pangolin theory is better than the, you know, the Wuhan lab leak theory, which is just like Occam's razor.

That's not real.

Well, we do know that there were other types of hominids that coexisted with human beings.

Denisovans,

the Flores people, the Hobbit people.

What is the carbon dating on these things?

Carbon dating ranges from 700 years ago, which would actually be Incan, that would be, because Incan started in like 1450,

and then all the way down to

1800 years ago, which is the Nazca people.

That's what's fascinating because,

you know,

there's this mystery of the Hobbit people, right?

Where they didn't really think that that was, there's a lot of

speculation that it was some bizarre

type of of human being that was deformed and tiny.

And then they realized, like, no, this is a specific branch of the human chain,

just like Denisova, and just like Neanderthal.

There's a thing called the Orang Pendek.

Have you ever heard of that?

No, what is that?

They think, I believe it's Indonesia and maybe Vietnam,

where people talk about these little tiny hairy people that live in the jungle.

Whoa.

And so these fluores things,

there's a few biologists that believe these things are still alive.

Interesting.

They think even on the island of Flores, they might still be alive.

What?

Yeah.

Are you serious?

Right.

So, if they're alive, if this turns out to be true, like let's imagine it is, because there's been things like the coelacanth, which they thought were extinct for millions of years, and then they caught one, and they're like, oh my god, this is a prehistoric fish and it's still alive.

And now they know that there's a population of them.

But this is the deep ocean, right?

Much less explored.

But when you look at Indonesia, when you look at Flores, the island of Flores, you look at all these places, like

you're talking about insanely dense vegetation that is virtually uninhabited.

So maybe.

And these things used to live on that island for sure.

We've got bones.

We know they used tools.

We know they probably had language.

They lived on that island.

They might still be alive.

So we didn't know about these things.

And I think, was it the 90s, I think, when they discovered them?

Denisovans I think was like 2010 and then this new species the big-headed people were they Juliens

what are they called yeah that's it that's like a few months ago right they found these right and this is another type of human being so what

what are the odds that there's some three-footed three-toed thing that existed a few thousand years ago and there are pictoglyphs all over the region both in Nazca and Pulpa in southern Peru.

So this is one that looks fake as fuck.

But this guy is driving in his motorcycle and he's filming and he claims that he got this thing running away.

No way, little hairy thing.

Yeah, you could see as he's riding his motorcycle, this thing like darts across the road in front of him.

And this is a few years ago, too, where...

You know, CGI sucked.

So there it is.

You could see it real briefly for a second.

It just runs across the road.

Look at that.

Oh, my God.

What is that?

I don't know.

But if this thing did exist at one point in time, I mean, goddamn, it looks good.

Yeah.

If it did exist at one point in time and people do see it all the time, there might be a small population of them that are still alive.

That thing, the x-ray of it or the MRI, the CAT scan, looked human, but weird.

Yes.

But the teeth and the jaw, it looked like a deformed human.

And it is important to note that there were skull elongation rituals going on as early as the Piracas people, which were pre the Nazca people.

What were they imitating?

That's the interesting question.

The Nazca lines, why are they making they're probably humans that made these things, but they're things that only make sense from an aerial view.

And they're miles long.

And they're miles long.

What are you doing?

And there are pictoglyphs, you know, cave art all over the region with three-fingered beings, with tridactyl beings.

Are there really?

There are, and this is the weirdest thing.

There's a guy named Thierry Amin, who is like the first Westerner.

He's this French kind of, he's an amazing archaeologist and explorer.

And he was the first guy that met Leandro, the

gravedigger who found the bodies to begin with.

He

Kalki is the actually like local dialect there that's spoken.

He says that the name of the general region means

laboratory for insemination and cloning.

What?

Yeah.

What?

Yeah, in Kalki.

Yeah.

What?

So like I have, I need to corroborate this.

Like I don't have the skills to do that, but like that's what he says.

It's crazy.

What the fuck?

I know.

But then

why this case is such a headache is like there's this guy Steve Mira who I think is a totally he's a UFO researcher.

He's the one of the less mushy-brained UFO researchers.

There's a lot of mushy-brained UFO researchers.

Really smart guy.

like quoted him in a lot of my other videos.

And he's like, we looked at one of the M-types, one of the bigger ones that like, I'm still holding out hope for because like, I'd love it to be real.

And he said that he did genetic analysis on two of the phalanges and one came back male, one came back female.

And so he was like, I think they were constructed.

But I'm like, how do you get by these forensic experts?

So it's this weird, it's just the DNA stuff, you don't get a good signal.

And the reason that nobody even cared, this is the most interesting paleoarchaeological case today, in my opinion.

The reason that people don't even care is because in 2023, when these were popularized by Jaime Massan, where he rolled out this J-type Josefina, the one that looked like kind of Close Encounter the Third Time in front of the Mexican Congress,

this guy named Manuel Caceres, who was an artist, who was making renditions of the things with like

wood and sticks and stuff glued together.

He was apprehended at the airport by the chief Peru prosecutor, this guy named Flavio Estrada.

And there are Reuters pick this up saying, This is all fake because of these fake.

And I have this in this documentary that I'm coming out with where he goes, this was art.

We dub it, but he goes, This was art.

It's crazy.

So that's the signals crossed.

The signals crossed.

And I think if there's anything about this case, it's like, let's get our best and brightest on it and figure it out.

I think we can figure it out quickly if we had the right resource.

And there are all these interpol laws, like you can't move the bodies from

Peru.

Right.

It's crazy.

Well, even if it's just a different branch of the human chain, I mean, that just if that's a different branch off the human tree, that's fascinating enough.

I agree.

That there's like three-fingered, three-toed people that live

with a weird-shaped head.

And if you find if there is phenotypic inheritance where you find that the tridactyl being inside Montserrat's belly is also tridactyl, then

at what point do you go, this is the how can you hoax that?

How can you hoax that?

That's crazy.

Yeah.

So, and and he's Zalce, who, by the way, is the head of the Mexican

medical Navy,

he was thrown in jail for supporting this case because they were like, we don't want to be associated with this.

And now the new Secretary of the Navy in Mexico has brought him back and he's sort of being vindicated.

But he is like, I was like, Jose, like if you showed this CAT scan image of the baby tridactyl to any normal doctor, they didn't know anything about the case.

Would they say it had three fingers?

He goes, yes.

So if that's the case, I think that is a big deal.

But then you have the Steve Mira thing.

So I just, I don't want to come out fully, you know, I don't know.

Of course, of course, yeah, of course.

But

I mean,

how much evidence would there be?

This is the problem with fossils, right?

Because when things die, they don't really create fossils unless it's a very extraordinary instance.

You know, like something unusual has to occur.

You got to get trapped in mud.

Right.

You know, that's how.

So most of the things that have lived, we don't have fossils of, which is if this thing was a small percentage or small population, small percentage of the living humans, and some of them are like that, and they just died off like 500 years ago.

And these ones got saved because they were around a ditomaceous earth mine, which preserved their organs and their whole body.

Just from an anthropology perspective, that should be the most fascinating thing.

But it's got the stink of a hoax on it, so people don't want to go and study it.

Yeah, I totally part of what I almost want to do is like a nature of reality fund that I tie to the show where I'm like, I see so many cases like this where I'm like, if we just had some money.

And it's like so important for humanity, right?

And it's like non-profit.

It's just, let's just pay to get the best people.

I think like one of the problems with modernity is like the smartest people are working on the dumbest problems.

We're building.

$15 billion particle accelerators.

People are stuck in string theory.

We're like debating all this dumb shit.

And you have these things.

I don't know if they're real.

You can debunk it.

Fine.

But if they're real, and it's not 0% that they're real, according to these forensic experts, let's pour some resources into it.

Yeah, it might be real.

They look real.

They look kind of real.

They look very real.

When I was in person, I was freaking, I was like, what the fuck?

Fucking said, if that's art, whoever made it is fucking incredible.

If that's art,

you'd have to have a really deep understanding of anatomy and then alter it.

Yeah.

And then make it uniform so you do multiple versions of these things.

Go back to that image again, Jamie, the one you just showed me.

Look at that head, man.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That looks like a fucking alien.

It totally looks like an alien.

The one other weird wrench that

we should mention is there's a proteomics expert who wants to remain anonymous because I think he doesn't want to be associated with the stigma of this case.

He looked at some proteins from an isolated skull of the J-types.

Now, I don't think the J-types, the things that were rolled rolled out in front of the Mexican Congress, are necessarily real.

I think maybe they were made in homage to these things that do look more real.

And he found

alpaca proteins on them.

And so that's

another important point that is a little fly in the ointment here.

So somebody probably made fake ones too.

But if there's a market where you can get seven figures for a real one, of course, someone's going to make some fake ones.

Totally.

100%.

Yeah.

But at the end of the day, what is that?

And why do they have three fingers?

And the Lazar craft, didn't it have like some sort of an indentation for hands?

It did, yeah.

And it didn't have three fingers?

Oh, I don't know.

Did it?

That would be wild.

I don't know.

I think it did.

Oh, my God.

I think it did.

And I think it was really small, just like these things are.

We're breaking ground on the Joe Rogan experience.

What if that's it?

That's crazy.

You know, and also, here's the thing.

We have this concept of this coming from another planet, but it might not be from another planet.

It might be from here.

How putoff noted that on your show.

He has a paper called the Silurian Hypothesis, which is you have cataclysms like the Younger Dryas impact, you know, or other things like that.

You have 66 million years ago, Luis Walter Alvarez, the asteroid impact killed all the dinosaurs or whatever.

What?

Breakoff civilization.

It's just like this $21 trillion is supposed to be funding.

There you go.

Right?

Like the underground, those tunnels and caverns in Turkey where they have this immense underground civilization or city rather and it almost felt like maybe they were hiding out from a cataclysm or something right and that's what they think it was yeah so imagine if there's some breakoff civilization where they lived i mean we're talking hundreds of thousands of years ago but they're different than us and you know sometimes they come visit

Could be, man.

Which is one of the reasons why they come out of the ocean a lot.

Totally.

They're transmedium.

And like,

in some sense, you would care way more about the nuclear stuff.

You'd be like, don't destroy your planet.

Don't destroy our planet.

Yeah, we're here.

It'll kill us too, you stupid.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Also, you're dropping nukes in the ocean.

You know,

the Marshall Islands test.

Yes, exactly.

That's nuts.

Really nuts.

Yeah.

And I think, yeah, there's a whole other rabbit hole.

I don't know if you want to get it.

See if you can find out if the Babazar ones had handprints for

there's a hand scanner he talked about, but it wasn't about three fingers.

No, the hand scanner was at

Los Alamos.

I typed in Babazar UFO three fingers.

AI says his claims have nothing to do with aliens or three fingers.

What did he say?

Uh, the ha controls for the the vehicle

because

there's something about putting your hands on something.

I believe there's something.

Element one fifteen.

didn't it say something about controls like that they're what did the inside of the craft look like

inside of craft

so that's jeremy corbel i could skip through that real outline

okay

god i want to say that they had three fingers

that would be wild

that would be fucking insane because they're tiny they have three fingers That's these things.

He said the seats were very small.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They're supposed to be like three feet tall or four feet tall.

That's these things.

There you go.

That's these things.

Yeah.

And they're in the cave art.

It looks like they're flying.

It's like hard to say because it's on caves or whatever.

I want to see that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

There's

tridactyl cave art.

God, how weird.

And how old is this cave art?

I think it dates to the Nazca period.

So around that time.

See, let's look up that first.

You did Tridactyl Cave Art.

how weird it's all so fucking weird man yeah it's so weird it's so weird it's because it's almost it's almost like reality's fucking with you yeah it is

it is and you have like the amazon is there's probably one in my dock jamie that i sent you there's a couple there oh there are four there's one there

There's three.

Whoa.

Three fingers and three toes.

That's crazy.

Textile fragments.

Wow.

Circa 1000 AD.

Whoa.

Yeah.

Three fingers, three toes, big crazy head, weird eyes.

How fucking strange, man.

So nuts.

There's so much we don't know, and everyone's scared of being ridiculous.

I know.

You know, everyone's scared.

It's one of the great things about what you do and what I do is that we don't have to worry about being ridiculous.

Totally.

Because we just are.

Yeah, and we don't have to be like, we have credentials.

Right, right, right, right.

Just being normal.

We don't have to worry about it being taken seriously.

Yeah.

Because so many people do worry about it and they don't want to stick their neck out.

But when you see something like this, the three fingers, three toes, artwork from a thousand fucking years ago, and it looks really weird, and then you see these things, you're like, hey, is that real?

Totally.

And discoveries require boldness.

They require like just going for it.

And it's, it's, yeah, it's

this like kind of nitpicky credentialism of like, I can't, I can't say anything other than the established wisdom.

What is your incremental addition then to human knowledge?

Right.

And when faced with undeniable evidence, will you relent?

Will you give in or will you just like, will you just like dig your heels in forever and claim bullshit till you drop off the face of the earth?

Like what's going on with Egypt?

You know, like, you know, when I had Zahi Hawass on and he's just completely unwilling to look at that, what is it, tomography?

The data that shows that there there might be something underneath the pyramids.

This is bullshit.

Is it a shore?

How do you know?

You don't even understand the science.

How can you possibly know?

No first principles arguments around it.

It's just, no, it can't be or whatever.

Oh, so you're it's politics.

Science is supposed to be the most immune from politics, and it's the most political thing.

Is that weird?

It is weird.

When you find that out, it's so disappointing.

It's so disillusioning.

Totally.

And then when you have these scientists that like dismiss people when they immediately start using tear look at this one that's so wild

this whatever that thing is around it has a like one arm with three and then one arm with three and one foot with three and one foot with three

wow what is that supposed to be representing two heads i don't know

There's a couple other things on the other page.

I had two-headed cats.

Maybe two heads, but no eyes.

How weird is that?

Like, what is that?

Big eye, one eye here, one eye here, two eyes, an eye.

Or maybe that's it inside something that it controls.

You know what I'm saying?

A little sports model.

Right, which showing the fingers, meaning like the fingers are what operates this thing.

What are you seeing?

Yeah.

This is so nuts, man.

It's so crazy.

All three fingers.

Like, what are the fucking odds of that?

Yeah.

Yeah.

What are the odds that this is a thousand years old, these images and these textiles?

And then you find this stuff.

Totally.

Like, what?

And it's in the mythology.

Right.

what the fuck is going on, man?

I know.

It's so frustrating, Jesse.

I'm with you, man.

And the Amazon is the size of the Indian subcontinent.

And we have to, like, LiDAR it and like understand.

We're finding cities every day.

We need to do the research.

Yeah, we do.

We do.

Look at more of these.

More three-finger ones.

God, so weird.

These are different, too.

Yeah, so weird.

Almost that weird bird that we looked at the other day with Luke.

Yeah, it does.

Thing that was on a petroglyph.

Yeah.

Luke, who

hopefully will be an amazing guest on your show.

He's been on.

I know.

He was amazing.

Yeah.

He was fantastic.

He was so good.

He will say, like, he's been everywhere, right?

And like, he's always like, Peru is the weirdest place.

I always go.

Really?

So.

Wow.

Yeah.

Well, dude, thank you so much for coming in.

I fucking love your show.

It's so good.

It's excellent.

American Alchemy, it's on YouTube.

Is it just Jesse Michaels on YouTube?

Like, how do they find the channel?

Jesse Michaels on YouTube.

I have a WAP, which is where we, it's called W-H-O-P.

It's an amazing place where we facilitate discussions about cool science and frontier stuff.

I don't know.

I don't see it.

This must absorb because your stuff is really well produced.

Thank you.

It must take an enormous amount of time to edit all that.

Honestly, I'm burnt out.

Listen, I'm glad you're doing it.

I really appreciate you.

I appreciate it.

Everybody, go watch it.

Go check out the channel.

It's fantastic.

If they want to find you on social media, what is your

social media?

Jesse Michaels official on Instagram, Octomy America.

No way.

Thank you.

Bane of my existence.

Is it?

Yeah.

I'm sure.

Roll call back in the day.

All right.

Well, thank you so much.

It was fun.

Yeah, a lot of fun.

Let's do it again sometime when more shit's going to come out, hopefully.

Let's do it.

All right.

Possibly.

Thank you.

All right.

Bye, everybody.