#2295 - Scott Payne

Speaker 0 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out.

Speaker 1 The Joe Rogan experience.

Speaker 2 Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day.

Speaker 2 Um, you had a crazy fucking life, man. Like a really crazy life.

Speaker 1 You spent

Speaker 2 so to get everybody up to speed right from the beginning, you spent 25 years undercover working for the FBI in the Klan, Nazi organizations, and biker gangs.

Speaker 1 And then then some, yes, sir. What a crazy, crazy life that is.

Speaker 2 First of all, how did you get, how did you first get started doing that?

Speaker 1 Good question. I grew up in South Carolina, played ball, all that stuff.

Speaker 1 I was always kind of a, I mean, if you look back, not trying to be cocky, whatever, because that's not it. You've had plenty of people on this show that are complete badasses.

Speaker 1 But I was kind of a bully of bullies. I didn't, I always looked out, I like the underdog.

Speaker 1 I bounced in college. So I was already learning that gift of gab

Speaker 1 and fight techniques and stuff like that. And then I got, I became a cop because when I was in college, I took a course.
I'm taking electives.

Speaker 1 I went to college so I'd have four more years to figure out what I was going to do because I didn't know what I was doing.

Speaker 1 Except partying. Except, you know, I did three years.

Speaker 1 I was good at partying.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I hit an elective that was criminal justice. And man, I really liked it.
Psychology was always a strong thing for me, but it took a back seat.

Speaker 1 And I ended up coming out with a major in criminal justice and a minor in psychology. But during those criminal justice courses, I was like,

Speaker 1 at first, for a fleeting moment, I said, I'm going to be an attorney. Yeah, I'll be an attorney.
And then I realized I'd be a terrible attorney.

Speaker 1 I said, because if I was the defense attorney and they said they did it, I would probably just walk up and go, they did it, right? That's not going to get me any clients.

Speaker 1 And if I was the prosecutor, I pictured me being like Sam Kennis and grabbing him and going, say it, say it, you know, you did it. So I'm like, yeah, that's probably not the best role for me.

Speaker 1 And I did a ride along with cops and

Speaker 1 the department, and that was it. But once I got in to law enforcement, I was Uniform Patrol for three years.

Speaker 1 I was just so fascinated with undercover. I don't know what it was.
I can't really remember doing the book. I've tried to dive back in.
People ask. I don't really remember.

Speaker 1 I just know that I loved undercover movies, period. If it was a biker undercover, I don't care how cheesy it was.
I love them all.

Speaker 1 And then one of my mentors at the sheriff's office, he was actually the world's strongest man in the late 80s after Kazmire. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 He was a former Marine

Speaker 1 and big dude. And he...

Speaker 1 As a task force,

Speaker 1 on a task force had gone undercover in some biker gangs. And man, I just,

Speaker 1 I wanted to be a biker. I grew up on motorcycles and it just started taking off from there.

Speaker 2 You got to think that biker gangs are probably super suspicious of people being undercover because it's such a theme.

Speaker 1 You think?

Speaker 2 It's been around forever, the stories of guys infiltrating biker gangs. It's been around forever.

Speaker 1 40-plus years right now. Easy.
Wow. Yeah.
And then there's books made. There's books made.
They go to court. They learn.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 So it was right after the Vietnam War, right? That's when all the biker gangs really.

Speaker 1 Blavays. I think it goes back to World War.
I mean,

Speaker 1 my history is bad, but I think it goes back back to

Speaker 1 World War, at least two, right? Really? Because all those, the way it goes, everybody always asks what a one percenter is.

Speaker 1 And it goes back, I think it's 1947, but it goes back to when your veterans are getting out. They have nothing.

Speaker 1 They had no decompression back then. They had no plans or programs for them.
And they've been out here living this raucous, rowdy life. And now they're back in the States.

Speaker 1 And now they're supposed to just flip and be like. Right.

Speaker 1 So they started creating these clubs and they were doing some raucous and rowdy stuff and then it was the president of the american motorcycle association that came out and made this statement that said something to the effect of listen 99 of all motorcycle riders are good law-abiding citizens there's only one percent that's bad and they took that as a badge of honor and said we're one percenters wow yeah cool stuff cool stuff so who was the first person to infiltrate them do you know the history of that no i don't but it's so it's been a going on forever as soon as they found found out, it's like it's been the case with the mob.

Speaker 2 It's been the case with everything. Shawnee Brasco, you know.

Speaker 1 Yep. My mentor.
One of my. Really? Yeah.
De Joe Pistol? Absolutely. Oh, wow.
He helped certify me. I saw him probably within the last six months or so.

Speaker 1 Graciously, he did a blurb on the book, too. Oh, wow.
I call him boss man, you know.

Speaker 2 So do you remember your first undercover assignment?

Speaker 1 Yes, yeah. What'd you have to do?

Speaker 1 It was at the sheriff's office. So after three years of uniform, I make it to narcotics investigator.

Speaker 1 Well, you got, it's a tough crowd, but we're funny, you know, but it's just like a good military group or anything else. There's going to be a lot of ribbon and stuff like that.
So

Speaker 1 they said, hey, you're going to go buy some dope tonight. It's my first time.
Now, granted, I bought weed and stuff in high school, and I was around those groups, but I never brought crack cocaine.

Speaker 1 I was already probably 6'4 ⁇ , and I probably was about 270 pounds. I did not look like I smoked crack

Speaker 1 unless I just fell off the wagon. I just feel real.

Speaker 1 I just started. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I'm the vegan that shows up still smelling like beef. You know, I just stopped.

Speaker 1 But they told me, hey, it's real easy. You're just going to roll down to this corner.
It's a known draft, a drug trafficking area.

Speaker 1 You're going to roll down there, white boy, you're going to roll down the window. They're going to come up to you and say, what do you want? And back then it was a 20.

Speaker 1 You just get a rock, 20 bucks for a rock. And say, all you got to do is hold that 20 and say, you just want a 20.

Speaker 1 Joe, I drove down there.

Speaker 1 I know I was scared because I was out of my comfort zone, but I was also scared to make a fool of myself in front of the narcotics guys and gals that were training me.

Speaker 1 And I roll down the street and I pull up and they come running up to the window. What you want? What you want? I crack the window.

Speaker 1 I crack it about this far and I stick a 20 like I'm trying to go to a vending machine. I'm like, I want a 20, you know?

Speaker 1 And the dude's like, he takes the 20, but he can't hand me the crack rock back to the cracked window. He's like, roll the damn window down.
And I'm like, my bad. It's probably like a sliver of soap.

Speaker 1 Who knows? But that was my first drug buy.

Speaker 1 First undercover, like legit.

Speaker 2 And so what was the protocol? Like you had to buy the drug, and then what do you do?

Speaker 1 It depends, case-by-case basis. We may want to make numerous buys on that corner, try to come in with the jump out boys, they used to call them, and shut that corner down for a while.

Speaker 1 We may be trying to make buys on the low-level people on the corner selling who are probably most likely users, at least it was my experience.

Speaker 1 So maybe like every five crack rocks they sold, they can peel one for themselves.

Speaker 1 And maybe we want to get them, build the case on them, kind of try to climb it up.

Speaker 2 And then find out who's the distributor.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

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Speaker 1 we you hit it everybody's a little different but three buys hit them with a search warrant kind of thing something like that and ultimately so when you're doing this um

Speaker 2 you're buying, you're trying to

Speaker 2 develop some sort of a relationship or an understanding of how this thing goes down. How do you get to who's selling it to them? Do you have to arrest them first?

Speaker 1 You can.

Speaker 1 Or you can do, there's all kinds of ways, but you can do like a wall-off.

Speaker 1 In other words, not let everybody see us, pick you off, you know, so you don't get burned, bring you in, talk to you, and this is what we got on you.

Speaker 1 We're trying to figure out who it is, and it's just traditional law enforcement. You're trying to find more intel and work your way up.

Speaker 2 And you offer them like immunity or something like that?

Speaker 1 Depends.

Speaker 1 Some people do it out of the goodness of their heart. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's rare, but I mean, you can do it. Hey, I'm patriotic.
I want to help clean this up. These people are trying to sell me dope.
I don't like them. I can go buy it for you.

Speaker 1 A lot of times we're paying a source

Speaker 1 or

Speaker 1 they could be working off a charge. It could be part of their plea agreement.

Speaker 2 So this is your first one. You get comfortable doing that.
And then how often are you doing this?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I mean, we could come in.
Let's just say there's six investigators on northern or southern command narcotics in Greenville County.

Speaker 1 You might be one of my partners, and we come in and you go, hey, I got a source. He's going to go make a buy tonight.
You might hop it in the car with him. It just happens.

Speaker 1 I mean, it's almost a daily thing.

Speaker 2 And so you develop your skills doing this. You get real good at being undercover.
And then how do you move on to the big boys? How do you move on to biker gangs, Nazis?

Speaker 1 I got hired by the FBI. Wow.

Speaker 2 And is it specifically because you were good at undercover shit or no?

Speaker 1 You see a picture of me.

Speaker 1 This is me, but for the Academy, I mean, it's a cheesy, thin,

Speaker 1 fuzzy mustache. Can't go past the crease of your lip, a high and tight.
You go get your haircut at the PX in Quantico. It was usually foreign ladies that were cutting your hair.

Speaker 1 No matter how I'd explained what I wanted, I got the same haircut every time.

Speaker 1 You take it up a little bit here and not so much here. Like, oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 You're like, all right, there you go.

Speaker 1 This is what we're doing but one thing i noticed in the at the state level was we would all go back then the south carolina criminal justice academy is in columbia south carolina so we would go there um and get certified but in your county i mean how many ways can i shape i'm in the same county and you're going out here making buys how many times can i change my car change my outfit change my facial hair the hair on my head until everybody starts knowing I'm a narc.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 You know, because when you're in that local environment, and I mean, I'm talking Greenville, South Carolina, Miami might be a little bit different or New York City, but you're going to court a lot and people are seeing you in court.

Speaker 1 And then, so how do you roll out there? So a lot of it turns into just running sources.

Speaker 1 To me, I believe developing and running sources is hand in hand with undercover because other than them not being a bonded law enforcement officer,

Speaker 1 And I don't have a felon on my record, but they do. They're still the ones we're wiring up and going in to get the evidence.
So a lot of it over the last

Speaker 1 many years with the Defund the Police and the Black Eye, it's hard to recruit. It's hard enough to get people to fill the uniform slots.
So you really don't have anybody doing undercover.

Speaker 1 Most of your smaller departments that I've

Speaker 1 taught or talked to or learned from is they're just running sources.

Speaker 2 Really? Is this all stopped during Defund of the Police?

Speaker 1 The George Floyd Times? Yeah, a lot of it. Yeah, the pendulum swings, right?

Speaker 1 Or it could be that because generations are different these days, people come to apply and they've got felons on their record. And we're like, bro,

Speaker 1 you can't be a cop. You got a felon on your record, you know? But I remember thinking,

Speaker 1 wouldn't it be kind of cool?

Speaker 1 if South Carolina Criminal Justice Academy had all of the certified undercovers in some type of database where it says, hey, Scott's skill set is biker, you know, riding motorcycles, can go in a biker biker bar, whatever, strip clubs, this, that, and the other.

Speaker 1 Maybe Charleston County needs somebody. Wouldn't that be cool if I could just shoot down there and make buys for Charleston County, but go back, and that way nobody knows me in Charleston County.

Speaker 1 Right. And when I got in the FBI, that's kind of what they do.
You get certified in the FBI, and you can go around the world.

Speaker 2 So, what was your initial job in the FBI?

Speaker 1 You are a case agent. When you get hired,

Speaker 1 the only responsibility you have,

Speaker 1 really, is you are a case agent. And that means you investigate, you do your own cases.
I did that the entire career. Even when I was doing undercover, I was still a case agent.
But

Speaker 1 I went through the academy. I got New York City as my first office.
And New York is the largest office. So they put you kind of like on a rotation.
You don't just go straight to A squad.

Speaker 1 You're going to be like, they want you to learn the city. They want you to learn the ins and outs of having a placard and the bus lane and all that stuff.

Speaker 1 Or just how to figure out how to get into the damn Lincoln Tunnel when six lanes go like that, you know.

Speaker 1 But eventually I went through the rotation and I got placed on the Columbian Drug Squad. So there,

Speaker 1 then people start learning you were certified undercover at a state level and this, that, and the other. So then there might be something like, say, LA takes off a 3,000, and we're talking like

Speaker 1 2001-ish, 2000, somewhere in there. So they take off, say, 3,000 pounds of weed in L.A.
and it was supposed to come to New York. Well, we go with them and say, man, can you send us all the stuff?

Speaker 1 They're cutting leads to us saying, hey, it was supposed to go to this address. But we got to build the exact replica box.
And it depends on the U.S. Attorney working the case.

Speaker 1 They may want assistant United States Attorney. They may want to just deliver it, and that's good enough.
Some may want us to deliver it.

Speaker 1 pull away and then they've got a hidden switch or something that notifies us when they open it just to make that case tighter.

Speaker 1 So I started doing cameos on stuff like that and then and then I landed in undercover, which I don't really talk about in the book because it's classified.

Speaker 1 And we are coming up on 25 years, which is usually when they declassify them. It's kind of been outed, but I just don't talk about it because I don't want to end up in the box, the

Speaker 1 lie detector, and have somebody beating me down. But I landed that undercover.
And after about 30 days in San Antonio, I became, they gave me another 60-day extension and I became the primary.

Speaker 1 And because I was there full-time working undercover, they transferred me to the San Antonio division.

Speaker 2 So the first undercover gig,

Speaker 2 what was your job? Like what were you pretending to do?

Speaker 1 The classified one. Again, it's classified.
But I will say this. I was a security guard.
Can you imagine being a cop with a cool uniform with a real gun on your hip?

Speaker 1 And now I'm making it to the FBI and I'm working third shift as a night at the museum, you know, with a flashlight. Oh, wow.

Speaker 1 But I wanted to get my foot in the door of the undercover program. And sometimes it was easier to get a slot in the undercover school if you were already s

Speaker 1 in or slated for an undercover.

Speaker 2 And so how so you eventually work your way up to probably more and more dangerous and complicated assignments?

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Speaker 1 Happens, at least in my experience. What happened with me is I get certified.
Our certification school is very, very intense.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know what they're doing now, but I'm 99.9% sure it's still very intense. It's two weeks, no days off, huge on sleep deprivation.

Speaker 1 Not going to give away all the scenarios and stuff for tradecraft reasons, but let's just say that

Speaker 1 I got certified in 2002. In 2003, I started role playing an assistant at the school.
I probably missed a handful of schools. up until the day I retired.

Speaker 1 Never 100% graduation rate.

Speaker 1 I don't know of any 100%

Speaker 1 graduation rate before I got into the program. And it's not hazing.
You get 20 slots.

Speaker 1 So it's four groups of five. And generally it goes like you get some trainings during the day and then we're running scenarios and we're putting you into live stuff.

Speaker 1 But day three and four, when you're really hurting for sleep,

Speaker 1 I've seen people nut out. And minor in psych, I didn't think I would see that because some of them I might know.
Maybe we were on the SWAT team together.

Speaker 1 Maybe I know you as a case agent and you're squared away.

Speaker 1 But you go to the UC school and after about three days of no sleep and not getting your normal meals on your normal times, not getting your workout in.

Speaker 1 One of my buddies walked in. He looked like he'd been raped by a tribe.

Speaker 1 He walked in, hair disheveled, buttons not lined up, zipper undone, half a shirt tail out. I'm like, are you okay?

Speaker 1 And some people, it's just,

Speaker 1 I would say that the reason

Speaker 1 the training is like that, it's not hazing. It's just so we don't lose anybody.
We try to make it as real as you can.

Speaker 2 Well, you got to find out who's going to crack.

Speaker 1 Yeah, and think of this.

Speaker 1 In a real scenario, not all undercovers are like this, but in the ones I would usually do, there's going to be a lot of times with no sleep. My skill set led me not to Wall Street.

Speaker 1 It didn't lead me to the yacht. It didn't lead me to the mafia club unless I was standing in the corner and I was muscled for the mafia guy.

Speaker 1 Mine led me to the woods and what you already mentioned, crazy, crazy-ass meth heads or just ideologies. So I get certified, and then I go back and role play.

Speaker 1 And that's when people start kind of seeing, and you're trying, I mean, you're trying to make a name for yourself.

Speaker 1 I wasn't getting calls because on the paper, I'm a white guy with no foreign language. But about every week or so, I would call the undercover unit and be like, hey, you got anything?

Speaker 1 It's big country. You got anything? More medium now.
But I mean, you know,

Speaker 1 I could even be little country at this point, you know. But I'd be like, hey, you got anything for any rednecks with no foreign language? And I'd just wear them down until they'd laugh.

Speaker 1 And then they finally asked me to come to the school. And once you do the school, now there's season undercovers coming back.

Speaker 1 And they're not only there to role play and to run a school, they're also looking for undercovers for cases in their own divisions. And that's where I kind of started

Speaker 1 getting into some things.

Speaker 2 It has to be one of the most exciting kinds of law enforcement.

Speaker 1 For me, absolutely.

Speaker 2 It has to be so crazy.

Speaker 1 I mean, at the end of the day, military, first responder, type A personality, we're adrenaline junkies.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and that's got to be a gigantic rush.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 They're on to us.

Speaker 2 I've talked to a few guys that have done that kind of work, and they always speak of it with sort of fond memories of how crazy it is. It's weird.

Speaker 2 It's like it's a very particular type of person that would want to put themselves in that highly stressful, adrenaline charge situation where, you know, any mistake and they find out who you really are, you're dead.

Speaker 1 Could be. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Now you made me second guess my career.

Speaker 1 Seems like it worked out.

Speaker 1 I'm going to call it cash now. I'll call cash.
Hey, you think I could come back in?

Speaker 2 What was the first one that you got, the first assignment that you got?

Speaker 1 We're like, oh boy, this is big leagues. That was the outlaws case.
I'd already done some undercovers again in the FBI. I'd done several street-level things or numerous whatever at the state level.

Speaker 1 But I was doing a couple of cases in the FBI, and they were smaller. You know, maybe it was supposed to be interstate transportation of stolen goods, and it turned into a public corruption case.

Speaker 1 But when I landed the outlaws case,

Speaker 1 that was my first big and probably one of the biggest I did.

Speaker 2 So, how does that go?

Speaker 1 How did that start?

Speaker 1 I'm not a smart man, so that's how it started.

Speaker 1 Why do you do this, Scott? I go, I'm not smart. I am stupid.
I'm a glutton for punishment. And my last name is Payne, you know?

Speaker 1 In that case, they did, they'll do canvases.

Speaker 1 A lot of times, so I was an undercover coordinator. Every division has an undercover coordinator.

Speaker 1 So you are the front line on all things covert, and you're the liaison between headquarters and that field office.

Speaker 1 So if I had a case come up, I may already know you or whoever and be like, hey, I'll just put a text out to you. You interested? Or we may just send out a canvas.

Speaker 1 And then a canvas comes from headquarters and goes to every undercover coordinator.

Speaker 1 And if it gets to the point to where no certified undercovers have responded, then they'll do like a bureau-wide canvas and see what we can get.

Speaker 1 I can't remember exactly if somebody called me on that one. I'm pretty sure.
I don't remember that outlaw as being a canvas, but it possibly could have been.

Speaker 2 Well, you fit the bill.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.
You look like an outlaw bike. It depends.
Slash Viking, whatever.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 It depends. See, that's what a lot of people, I'll get off on a tangent, but

Speaker 1 throughout my career,

Speaker 1 my mentors, my peers, people I've been blessed to mentor, some people come up in the office, very good friends, unbelievable agents. I mean, brainiacs, awesome.

Speaker 1 And they'll be like, man, I could never do what you do. My beard would be down to here, whatever, tatted up.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, well, don't do me. What do you, what's your background? And they're like, well, I was an accountant.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, with who before they had been, I was accountant with Disney or whatever. I was this.
I was a lawyer. Well, you'd be you.

Speaker 1 I could,

Speaker 1 I'm not, Somebody's probably going to be pissed because they're going to say it's tradecraft, but listen, I could bring you in

Speaker 1 and you just walk into the group. I'm the primary.
I've already laid all this stuff out. It's a chess game.
We're always trying to stay four or five moves ahead or master a puppets.

Speaker 1 I'm just trying to connect with people and work, work the scene. But you come in and you dress as an accountant and you talk like an accountant and then you walk out.
You're you. It's real.
Right.

Speaker 1 So.

Speaker 1 So there's roles for all sorts sorts of different types of personalities and life skills yeah and i'm like you might see something where they say i need a person this tall that speaks this language that does this and knows this but what are you trying to do essentially the fbi works everything um

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 if if a target if we have predication or predicated target or there's information coming in about somebody doing something nefarious

Speaker 1 If we want to do an undercover,

Speaker 1 how do I get close to you? I mean, what do you find attractive? Usually it's money in the criminal world. It's green, right? You can see the Mexican mafia working with the Aryan Brotherhood of Texas.

Speaker 1 They hate each other, but they love green. And one needs guns and one needs dope and, you know, it all in the criminal world.
But

Speaker 1 for that case, I went up, I got interviewed

Speaker 1 by, of course, the FBI.

Speaker 1 There were task forces there. DEA was there, ATF was there.
And they had been working this case for a while. And generally, this is the way it would work for me on these long-term type undercovers.

Speaker 1 The case team's been working this for a long time, a year plus. They've been building intelligence.
Now, they've got some evidence already, maybe a seizure of dope here, report of a carjacking here.

Speaker 1 to get that airtight case and to find out what's really going on, now they're at the point to where they can use the investigative technique, which is undercover.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 we came up with a plan

Speaker 1 and

Speaker 1 I went in cold. I tried to bump them, as we say, a cold bump.
But I went into a bar that they frequented. I went there when they weren't there.
It was a strip club. I used to bounce at strip clubs.

Speaker 1 In the book, I make a joke

Speaker 1 because I call them a gentleman's club, but then I say that's an oxymoron because

Speaker 1 everyone I've been in, there's not a lot of gentlemen in there. And that includes me back in the whatever days they were.

Speaker 1 But I knew how they work. So I went in there and I just started hanging out.
And of course, this accent in Boston, Massachusetts, I'm getting noticed as soon as I start talking.

Speaker 1 Where the hell are you from? And I kind of worked that and started working the bar, doing what I do.

Speaker 1 Everybody has their own way.

Speaker 1 And let me say this since it's at the beginning. Listen,

Speaker 1 for me, I want people to know it comes from a humble spot. There are men and women out there that have done way more undercovers than me.
They have been through more harrowing things than me.

Speaker 1 I already said I've got mentors, I've got peers, I've got people I've been blessed to mentor. Some of them don't want to talk.

Speaker 1 Some of them haven't had the opportunity. So just know it's coming from a love kind of place.
Got it.

Speaker 2 So when you say you work in the bar, what do you mean? You're just like making friends with people there?

Speaker 1 What I did last night here in Austin.

Speaker 1 Same thing.

Speaker 1 Like old habits die hard. Yeah, I just got like, hey, man, how's it going? Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's like catch and release. You're like pretending.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's still

Speaker 1 working your gab. That's interesting.

Speaker 2 So you're always working your skill set, even though you're not on the job anymore. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 I love connecting with people. I don't care whether you're smart, stupid, big,

Speaker 1 skinny, fat, any ethnicity, doesn't matter. And that's one thing I do miss about the job.
I miss getting called out at two in the morning for the craziest of the crazies.

Speaker 1 And you show up to do an interview, and

Speaker 1 essentially I befriend you. And you either confess or we find out you really weren't doing anything.

Speaker 1 I do remember one night, this wasn't undercover, but they called me because towards the end of my career, I was doing nothing but mainly domestic terrorism.

Speaker 1 And they call me, they go, we got one down here. He's a white supremacist.
He's assaulted a cop, this, that, and the other. Well, I get down there.
It's like three, four in the morning now.

Speaker 1 I do my spiel. I'm not screaming at the guy.
Man, you need something to drink. Here, man, you look cold.
Here's a coat. So tell me about what happened.
I'm not here for this other stuff.

Speaker 1 I'm just, and I start talking.

Speaker 1 Well, somewhere in there, I'm like, okay, this guy's not a white supremacist. He's a sovereign citizen.

Speaker 1 And he's just anti-government. pro-sheriff, elected, but anti-government.
Sovereign citizens, I really can't stand to deal with them. It's just, it's like absurdity to the max.

Speaker 2 Can you explain sovereign citizens to people?

Speaker 1 You see it all over.

Speaker 1 They get pulled over and they don't, I don't need a driver's license. I'm in commerce.
I'm in transit. If they touch you, well, that's rape.

Speaker 1 They think they've got 100,000, I'm going to forget it, but it's like $175,000, $250,000 being held by the government for each person. It's crazy.
They'll start putting liens on people.

Speaker 1 People put on trainings. So when it first started happening, a cop pulls you over and they see like this thing signed in blood and the paperwork looks legit, but I never got that training.

Speaker 1 Is this legit? You know, I guess I can't pull this guy over. Then you start diving in.
You start getting the training. They go, these people are full of crap.

Speaker 1 And then you see the cops popping the window and dragging them out of the car. You're still going.
But this guy was a sovereign citizen. He had a brother.
And

Speaker 1 we're talking and and he's telling me this stuff and the constitution and the declaration of independence and i'm like yeah yeah and i said well but how do you know that's what the forefathers meant when they signed that and he said because i was there son oh boy and that's when i went

Speaker 1 oh he's not just a sovereign citizen he's a kook he's crazy Why did it take me this long to find out?

Speaker 2 You said I was there?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I was like this. He goes, because I didn't even miss a beat.
I go, how do you know? Because I was there, son. And I went, there?

Speaker 1 Oh, you've been reincarnated about four or five times. Oh, and I'm like,

Speaker 1 and you got this life this time? You got the one you're living right now this time?

Speaker 1 What are you talking to me at four in the morning?

Speaker 1 You look like you've had a rough life. I mean,

Speaker 1 I would, you know, if I was going to buy into, you know, reincarnation, I'd want to come back as maybe like my mom's dog or something like that.

Speaker 1 You know, eat steak, yeah, something, get this great life, sleep, eat, and play.

Speaker 1 But so back to the outlaws thing. I go in and I'm just shooting the shit.
I'm just working the bar. I'm telling jokes.
You get a crowd of people around you. And that's not trade crowd.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's just me, right?

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 by the way, for the listeners who may not know, little intervention. If you buy all your friends, all their drinks and their food all the time, they're probably not your friends.

Speaker 1 You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 I got all kinds of friends. Those aren't your friends.
Right. Stop paying.
They won't come around anymore. But that's kind of what I was doing.

Speaker 1 And then now we get to the night to where the outlaws are leaving their clubhouse.

Speaker 1 And for the listeners that don't know, in the biker world, especially one percenter world, there's a mandatory meeting every week at a clubhouse, and they refer to it as church.

Speaker 1 So they're leaving church. I get the surveillance team telling me, hey, man, we're leaving church.
I'm like, cool. I'm at the bar.
Already the Foxy Lady in Brockton, Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 That's a rough town. Right.
And

Speaker 1 Marvelous Marvin Hagler.

Speaker 1 I'd go to home of Marla. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I'm like, yeah.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 they tell me they're coming.

Speaker 1 Now the intelligence that they had provided me when we started getting this case together, I was like, hey man, can they wear their colors, their cuts, their leathers in the bar?

Speaker 1 And they said, no, they don't allow that. And I'm thinking in my mind, well, that makes my approach easier because I'm not a tattooed guy.

Speaker 1 watching naked women listening to heavy metal and drinking next to a guy who's watching naked women and heavy metal drinking.

Speaker 1 They had that part wrong because about 13, 15 outlaws come walking into the bar, take the whole back bar. They're all wearing their colors.

Speaker 1 So that,

Speaker 1 does that change my approach?

Speaker 1 I think it does. Yeah.
Unless you want me to go up, and as I say, when I'm teaching this, I go up and I go, what do you mean? Come and go, hey,

Speaker 1 you boys right?

Speaker 1 Nothing? No? All right, fine. I'll just, I'm going to go back on the other side of the bar.
Please don't beat my ass.

Speaker 1 So I just was being loud and boisterous. It's me.
That's what I do.

Speaker 1 It doesn't always work for undercovers. Some people don't like it, but it's my personality.
Are you allowed to get drunk?

Speaker 1 Boy, that's a tricky question. Yes, I can drink.

Speaker 1 But here's the thing.

Speaker 1 Let's say that outlaws case. That was two years.
So there's two years of recordings of you seeing me turn a jack and coke up, right?

Speaker 1 I'm anal. Even though I look and sound like trash on paper, I'm pretty tight.
And And I wanted to be good. I wanted to always get better and be more well-rounded.
So I would watch.

Speaker 1 And even if I caught myself at five in the morning, six in the morning, slurring, as I'm listening to it, I'd be like, dead gummit, man. And then I'd listen.
And within five minutes, I'd be back.

Speaker 1 Because you got to remember, all that could be played in front of a jury.

Speaker 1 And if I'm on there slurring and saying a bunch of stupid stuff, I mean, how does that affect my articulation for what I was doing?

Speaker 1 But was my alcohol tolerance very high?

Speaker 2 You know, you're a big dude. You probably put some away.

Speaker 1 I did. Kind of still do.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you what. What put me on a three-month timeout was CPI.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah. Because you go down there and you get the.

Speaker 1 Sims explained it.

Speaker 2 We're talking about the Cellular Performance Institute that my friends

Speaker 2 run down in Tijuana.

Speaker 1 Absolutely. Great, great facility.
I will tell you the

Speaker 1 my previous hospital visit before I went to Tijuana, I almost died. I had a hip replacement and it got got sepsis.
I got sepsis and I almost died.

Speaker 1 So 14 days after my total hip replacement, quickest surgery I've ever had, about 30 minutes, chop the femur off, drill it, pop. They're walking you out.

Speaker 1 You're still very high on all your, they're like, if you can walk, you can go home. And I'm like, I can't walk.

Speaker 1 But apparently something happened. It got infected.
So 14 days later, I had sepsis and they got it under control and they went back in and cleaned me all out. I had two hip surgeries in 14 days.

Speaker 1 But fast. So now I'm going to Tijuana, knowing what I know about working the border,

Speaker 1 even though I'm friends with Ed and Scotty, the owners, and I'm like,

Speaker 1 I'm like, man, now I'm going by myself.

Speaker 1 Best hospital stay I've ever had.

Speaker 1 Phenomenal. It's phenomenal.
It's an amazing place. Phenomenal.
And but what got me stopped, cut back on my drinking is I got down there.

Speaker 1 You can't drink the week before, especially if you're getting the IV. stem cells because they travel through your body and they grab stuff.

Speaker 1 So if you drink and it sees your liver working harder, it's going to go to your liver. So you're kind of wasting the shots.

Speaker 1 I knew I couldn't drink the week before. I got there and they go, yeah, you can't drink for three more months.
And I went, three months. And they're like, I said, damn, nobody told me that.

Speaker 1 And I was like, and I immediately went, I need to cut back anyway. That's fine.

Speaker 1 But yeah, tolerance was high.

Speaker 2 But you have to be drinking with these folks when you're hanging out with them.

Speaker 1 You don't have to. But this will go back to an explanation of the undercover school.
If you're going to drink,

Speaker 1 we want you to drink in a controlled environment when you're tired because we want you to see how you feel. We also want to see how you behave when you're extremely tired and you're plastered, right?

Speaker 1 So you have to know that. In other words, you don't want to find out in the middle of the clubhouse that you can't handle your shit.
Right.

Speaker 1 So, yeah,

Speaker 1 you can drink,

Speaker 1 and but you're being recorded. So

Speaker 1 be wary about wary about it. What about drug use?

Speaker 1 This is what I can get into this. Is this trade craft or not?

Speaker 1 Maybe this is the easiest way to say it. If I believe my life is in danger and like literally I'm getting ready to die,

Speaker 1 I will snort the lacquer finish off of this damn table.

Speaker 1 And then I'll be like, is that all you got? You want me to do some more? Right. Because I really don't feel like dying right now.

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Speaker 1 And then I need to get to the team. I need to get out.
I need to get to the case team. And I need to get to an emergency room to make sure I'm not ODing, especially today with fentanyl and stuff.

Speaker 1 But that's kind of the general rule.

Speaker 1 I would say it's probably not a good idea for you to do drugs.

Speaker 1 Just without answering it completely, let me give you this. You're going to trial.

Speaker 1 We've got a two-year case against you.

Speaker 1 And I'm up here articulating what I did. It's in my documents.
It's in the recordings. And we have built this case.

Speaker 1 Usually with undercover cases, in my experience, the evidence is so overwhelming, the only thing the defense can claim is entrapment, which you should be able to shoot that down pretty quick if you've done your due diligence, or they try to make you look like a piece of trash on the stand.

Speaker 1 So imagine if they're saying, well, he did dope with us.

Speaker 1 You need to be able to articulate, did you? Why did you? That's more movie stuff. It does happen on levels, and I wish it didn't, but it happens on levels where people don't have training.

Speaker 1 And that's sad because there have been plenty of people.

Speaker 1 Let's just use biker gangs from law enforcement, from local small department all the way up to feds that have infiltrated biker gangs, that have patched and gotten their colors.

Speaker 1 But the cases went to crap. They lost themselves.
They lost their marriage. They became addicted to drugs.
So we shouldn't be. There's no case worth that.

Speaker 1 That's the best way to say it. There's no case worth you getting addicted to drugs or endangering yourself.
Just walk.

Speaker 2 So what is the dance of getting to the bar, becoming a regular, and then eventually getting to know these guys?

Speaker 1 So that first night,

Speaker 1 I'm being loud and boisterous, and they did say that there was one particular member who loved to be the center of attention, and he loved to be surrounded by big dudes.

Speaker 1 Take that for what you want. I don't know.
I didn't dive too deep into that one. But when you say hang out with big dudes,

Speaker 1 surround them.

Speaker 1 Why is there a jar of Vaseline over there?

Speaker 1 What kind of party is this? What's with the cameras?

Speaker 1 Hey, Scott, have a drink of this before you come in here and sign this NDA. Yeah, what? What?

Speaker 1 So I start befriending him, and I'm being loud. Let me take it back.
I'm being loud. This guy did like attention.
He sees it, and he's like, hey, hey, where the F are you from?

Speaker 1 So I fire some stupid comedy thing back. We start going back and forth because he's already asked the bartenders, who the hell is that guy? Oh, that's Tex.
He comes up here all the time from Texas.

Speaker 1 I don't come up here all the time. It's human nature.
It's like, you know, you caught a fish this big by the 10th person you're telling. There was like 10 of them.

Speaker 1 I had to fight them off with my pinkies.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I get called over. I don't know who sent a drink to who first, but he calls me over and just starts shooting the shit with me.

Speaker 1 And from then, he pretty much invites me to one of their Northeast regionals called Lobster Fest, held in Brockton at that clubhouse.

Speaker 1 And we were kind of on the way. There was a guy who was not patched, and his name was Scott as well.

Speaker 1 I said the name of the book. It's all adjudicated.
It's all in the court proceedings and stuff. But Scott Town was his name.
And he was a big dude. He was jacked.
And he came in.

Speaker 1 I remember going to the bathroom. And

Speaker 1 again, I think I'm doing pretty good.

Speaker 1 I'm in great shape. And I'm being me.
I'm talking, shooting the shit, not hanging out too much. I'll walk back over, play a little, you know, you come chase me kind of thing.

Speaker 1 So, I go to the bathroom, and nobody's in there. And

Speaker 1 for the listeners that don't know men's bathrooms and bars, usually at the urnal, there's some kind of box, plexiglass with some kind of ads like, hey, this person's coming next week, that stuff.

Speaker 1 So, as I'm peeing, I'm looking at the reflection and I see the door swing open, and I see this jack dude Scott.

Speaker 1 It must have made an impression because in the report, I even say he's wearing like a gray shirt with black trim.

Speaker 1 he's completely sleeved out and i'm getting all this from like you know uh sleeved out on left arm huge earrings um and i watch him and i see him kind of ducking and looking under stalls and hitting the doors to make sure nobody else is in the bathroom i'm acting nonchalant but then i see him walk up to me and for that split second i thought i'm getting jacked i'm gonna get jumped right here

Speaker 1 but he ends up just asking me what brings you to massachusetts i think what happened is they sent him in there to press me um and this is a good lesson. Don't bluff.
If you bluff,

Speaker 1 whatever you say today,

Speaker 1 you might be still in that case a year and a half, two years later. It needs to match what you said on day one, or you could be slipping up and getting found out.

Speaker 1 But I said where I'd been around, McAllen, grew up in South Carolina, all this stuff. He'd been to all those places because he used to travel the country fighting dogs.

Speaker 1 So if I'd have been bluffing, I'd have been done right there.

Speaker 1 And then from there, we start start building relationships. Now I'm trying to ingratiate and I'm getting invited to parties.

Speaker 1 My story was that I was a site survey specialist and I traveled the country for investors out of Texas and I would look at properties that they want to buy,

Speaker 1 whether it's residential or mercantile and pull stuff from the clerk of court and all that kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 as it usually does in the criminal world, it came out that I also did some crimes myself. And that's when we started getting into,

Speaker 1 they were doing insurance fraud first with me.

Speaker 1 They would report vehicles stolen and then sell them to me for a stolen price.

Speaker 1 And the story was, since I was based out of McAllen, Texas, I was just using the facts that we were moving vehicles to Mexico in trade for whatever. Guns, most likely dope, but whatever.

Speaker 1 And that's how we started. And then from there, now you start gaining more trust.
You start hanging out more. You become tighter.
You're building these relationships. Um, and

Speaker 1 then it's like, hey, we just carjacked somebody. We got this car, we took this dude to gunpoint.
This thing's got Lojack or OnStar or whatever was around. And then we got to get rid of it.

Speaker 1 Don't worry about it. I got it.
Have a truck driver show up. We load all the stolen equipment, vehicles, whatever, on the truck.

Speaker 1 And they thought they were going to Mexico, but they were just going to a warehouse somewhere in Massachusetts.

Speaker 2 So you never actually brought cars to Mexico?

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 2 So when you would do that, we just get cash from the FBI to like represent?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I would pay them

Speaker 1 a stolen price. Usually, stolen is usually

Speaker 1 20 to 25% of what it would normally cost, you know, because it's hot.

Speaker 1 And that just started gaining trust. I mean, we, like I said, there was other undercovers that would help.
We call this cameos.

Speaker 1 If you're the primary undercover, that's you. That's your case.

Speaker 1 A secondary undercover might mean you come in to meet me, but you stay with me for a couple of days and we go out and meet bad guys together. That's going to be a secondary role.

Speaker 1 If you're coming in as a truck driver, you're just pulling in the parking lot, we're loading up stuff, that's a cameo. And I've done many cameos for other undercovers as well.

Speaker 1 You know, just roll into town, do a deal, whatever.

Speaker 2 So no one's ever trying to go with you to Mexico to make sure that all this is happening?

Speaker 1 Not on that case, but if they did want to, we would have to work that out. We would have to have that kind of.

Speaker 1 I took this from a buddy of mine who I helped certify as an undercover, and I just thought it was a great way to say it. It's look,

Speaker 1 at the end of the day, we want that target going to bed thinking, that was a good day. You don't want them laying in bed going,

Speaker 1 man, there's something went right about that guy. Something, something's not right, because you want it to be as real as possible.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 was it a fact that the cartels at that point in time loved 4x4 V8s and Harley-Davidson's? Absolutely. Did they get stolen all the time on the border? Absolutely.
So that's factual stuff that's real.

Speaker 1 So now I'm a guy.

Speaker 1 They eventually learned and believed that I was a

Speaker 1 high-ranking member of an international theft ring.

Speaker 1 And that's what we were doing. And then

Speaker 1 through those, then they start stealing vehicles, which I got to be careful of. I can't say, hey, I want a brand new F-350 squad cab because then they go steal it.

Speaker 1 That's somewhat of entrapment. I just led them to go steal that car, right?

Speaker 1 But over the next year or so, we're getting more and more stuff. I buy dope from them.

Speaker 1 Like I said, carjackings. We learned of them, certain members extorting people, like the good old mafia days, you know, extorting businesses, home invasions.

Speaker 1 But again, for the listeners listening, to hear that at a bar and say, yeah, we robbed that house. Is that enough to charge somebody? Probably not.

Speaker 1 Is an assistant United States Attorney going to be like, yeah, that's enough. No, we're going to have to dive in more and find out and vet it out and get that evidence.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Stressful shit.

Speaker 2 Slightly. Getting stressed out just thinking about you doing all these things.

Speaker 1 Me too.

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 how long is this relationship while you're building a case? Like,

Speaker 2 how much time are you spending with these people?

Speaker 1 For that case, I was probably up there every three weeks for a good week, but then it's constant contact when I'm not there.

Speaker 1 Next messages. Yeah, well, next tales were big with him at that point in time.
So yeah, church. Oh, that's the

Speaker 2 old days, the walkie-talkie one.

Speaker 1 Radio, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, a little bit funny. People forgot about them walkie-talkies.

Speaker 1 Yeah, man.

Speaker 1 It was crazy about that. You could key up and talk to somebody in Japan, and it'd be Chris or Creer, but if you tried to call somebody, it was the worst connection ever.

Speaker 1 Yeah, they were terrible phones. But that's what they used, and that's what I got.
And I was mirroring them.

Speaker 1 But yeah, so you build those relationships, and it depends. Each case is different.
But I will say that the tightest relationship I had on that case was Scott Town.

Speaker 1 It was absolutely scary how similar we were

Speaker 1 and how tight we were.

Speaker 1 Now, again, he didn't know I was Scott paying FBI undercover, but he knew I was Scott Calloway.

Speaker 1 And he knew, I mean, it would be to the point to where if we were going out to do an op that evening, an operation,

Speaker 1 they wouldn't put it in the operations plan, but they would ask, hey, is Scott Town going to be there tonight? And I'm like, yeah. And even the FBI cover teams and stuff would be like, good.

Speaker 1 Because they knew that he cared enough about me, he'd take a a bullet for me and protect me and vice versa really for as me and Scott Calloway and I mean we finished each other sentences we thought the same other than the criminal stuff uh

Speaker 1 and some faith belief systems but uh yeah that was my tightest and the second one over the two years was probably a guy whose road name was Clothesline and he was the enforcer for the Taunton chapter and then after that it probably would have been the president which was Joe Doggs and then it just trickles down from there do you have conflicted feelings when you develop like these relationships with these guys?

Speaker 2 I did.

Speaker 1 You can put on as much training. You can get the training.
You can be a part of it. I'm still human.

Speaker 1 Now, was I to a point to where I'm going to go, I'm leaving the FBI and I'm going to become a Lumber Center.

Speaker 1 Some people do, though, right? I know. Some people do, but I wasn't there.
I wouldn't do that.

Speaker 2 How often does that happen?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I don't know. In the FBI, probably not a lot, but those cases are well known.

Speaker 1 If something happens like that, somebody goes rogue, like, you know, your breach story and all these people selling secrets and getting people killed. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I wasn't there. Nor would I be.
I wouldn't be. I would like to think if I did have a 1%er club, nobody would ever infiltrate it, though.
Well, you probably understand how it works.

Speaker 2 But even then. Yeah, I know.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're dealing with ragamuffin people. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I don't even know who's going to be. But those are like, again, those are my kinds of people.
When we're riding around and

Speaker 1 people people are wrestling each other over tables, this is my favorite move, bang.

Speaker 1 I mean, at one point, I'm driving down the road with Scott Town in a snowstorm, and I'm driving, and I'm like this with my hand. He reaches over out of nowhere and breaks my pinky.
Just pop.

Speaker 1 And this sucker's like 90 degrees. And I'm like, motherfuck.
I pulled over. I slammed on the break.
Well, I mean, snow, but come to the stop. And I go, what the F is your problem?

Speaker 1 And he's looking at me. He's going,

Speaker 1 I don't know what he was on, but he was in an evil space, right?

Speaker 1 And I'm looking at him and I'm going, look, if you want to F and fight, we'll stand out in the damn snowstorm right now and we'll go at it. I know you think you can whip me, but maybe I can whip you.

Speaker 1 And I saw it wasn't going anywhere, and he was getting more and more angry. And I just looked at him and I went,

Speaker 1 he's an animal right now. I'm going to diffuse.
I'm going to de-escalate, which is really what you should be doing as an undercover.

Speaker 1 And I look over and I go, hey, hey, after I pop my finger in, I go, hey, sniff,

Speaker 1 smell,

Speaker 1 good boy, friend, friend, like that. I'm trying to calm you down.
Then he starts laughing. But that's the kind of stuff you get.
But to me, it was no different than being in college playing ball.

Speaker 1 Hanging out with psychos. Yeah, when you're there in the month of August and nobody is there, it's just 24-7 football.

Speaker 2 What was it like when you eventually brought that guy down?

Speaker 1 It was sad. It was sad because in that case,

Speaker 1 there was a point where

Speaker 1 I had a young daughter, and his youngest daughter was roughly the same age as my daughter. So I'm not at home with my kid, but I'm in his house bouncing his daughter on my lap.

Speaker 1 And, you know, when they're developing as a human being, at that stage, they're kind of making the same noises, moving the same way.

Speaker 1 It was surreal. And then I remember thinking, man, I mean, I really like this guy.
You know, he likes to drink. I like to drink.
He likes to fight. I like to fight.
He likes to ride. I like to ride.

Speaker 1 He likes to live.

Speaker 1 I like like to live i go man we finished each other's sentence everything already said and then i look over at his uh refrigerator and and i see all these stickers and magnets and stuff and my eyes just settled in on wwsd and for the listeners that don't know wwjd is very common in the christ follower christian community what would jesus do um you see the bracelets all the time and i look over and said wwsd what would satan do and i looked and i went oh yeah we're not the same we're not i'm back

Speaker 1 I used to, we'd be in the clubhouse, and everybody's yelling. They're like, you know, if for the, again, people that don't know, whatever your biker club name is, you usually get these same sayings.

Speaker 1 So for the outlaws, it's outlaws forever, forever outlaws. Hell yeah, yeah, yeah.
God forgives, outlaws don't. Yeah, yeah.
It's better to be first in hell than second in heaven. And I'm like, what?

Speaker 1 T.

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Rated M for mature.

Speaker 1 Hang on. I'm like, I'm not saying I'm a chalk walking Christian because I'm pretending to be a 1%er, you know, evil man, but what story have you ever heard of hell where it was good?

Speaker 1 I mean, are we helping me out here? So, yeah, it's a crazy bunch. But on that case, one of the biggest things that happened is

Speaker 1 we had been going for a year and a half and doing all these things. They've carjacked stuff.
We're getting more and more evidence.

Speaker 1 There was a Hells Angel president murdered in Connecticut, Bridgeport, Connecticut.

Speaker 1 Terrible town. Yeah.
Terrible town.

Speaker 2 Oh, Bridgeport's dangerous.

Speaker 1 So Bridgeport, Connecticut, and

Speaker 1 the other Hells Angel that was shot didn't die. And he was able to give a description of a green truck with Florida plates.

Speaker 1 We knew at that time that Florida outlaws were up in that area because they were hanging out with our targets.

Speaker 1 And even when I would call, I'd be like, hey, man, man, it's hot here right now. If you come out, you need to be strapping.
I'm like, well, I don't want to fly with it.

Speaker 1 I don't want to put a bullseye on my back back then.

Speaker 1 I'm like, hey, if I show up, hey, we'll give you a vest. We'll give you a gun kind of thing.
So we're doing all that. And now we get to the point to where we can, all the predications there.

Speaker 1 They've done wiretaps. The case team has been doing a wiretap.
They know that there's drug deals going on. They're doing surveillance.
And now we're to the point to where

Speaker 1 we can introduce that I used to be in the dope game as well.

Speaker 1 My story was that the reason I got out of it and only did the stolen stuff was because

Speaker 1 some of my peeps got popped because the heat was getting close. So I pulled chocks and I was out.
And all I do now is move stolen equipment down because it's a lot less,

Speaker 1 the way I explained it, it was less likely for law enforcement to catch me. And then they would ask, you know, well, how come a white guy is not cut out by all these Mexicans you're working with?

Speaker 1 And I go, because I'm the green go that has the contact at the port of entry and the contacts at the checkpoints to pay them 15 grand to turn their head for two minutes and let our stuff go through.

Speaker 1 And that was really happening on the border. And I knew that because I was on the border working it.
Again, real things.

Speaker 1 You're just putting them into your story.

Speaker 1 But I now let them know it took a long time. I don't put words in their mouth.

Speaker 1 But I started laying breadcrumbs over weeks and months that I did used to be in the dope game.

Speaker 1 And, of course, Joe Doggs, the president, I mean, the first time I met him and he said, where are you from? I said, McCall in Texas on the border.

Speaker 1 His next question was, how much can you get a kilo of cocaine for? And I went,

Speaker 1 well, if we were needing predication, I think he just gave it.

Speaker 1 But his business skills weren't that that great because I'd say, look, man, about 13 grand is what you could get a kilo for then on the border.

Speaker 1 He said, man, so if I got 10 of them up here for 13, I'm like, no, that's not going to cost 13 up here.

Speaker 1 There's a reason that a kilo costs 25 to 30 grand up here because somebody has to get it from the border to here.

Speaker 1 Now, if you want to drive down the border and buy 10 for 13 apiece and you risk taking them back over, but

Speaker 1 so we let it be known that I had some cartel. Of course, they knew I had cartel contacts, and we started started introducing those.
Some cameo undercovers came in, unbelievable people.

Speaker 1 And we ended up doing what some refer to as a drug protection.

Speaker 1 There was going to be a drug shipment coming in, and my crew was going to be delivering it to another crew, and we needed protection. And we did it in Brockton,

Speaker 1 and several outlaws hopped in on it.

Speaker 1 The issue was this.

Speaker 1 At least one of the big issues. Pretty much that case, I had a great time.
Yes, it's violent, and my mentality was changing. There is a podcast that's

Speaker 1 a series that's going to be coming out

Speaker 1 with the book. And they actually interview one of the task force officers who was over me on that case on the outlaws.
And I remember him calling me. He's like, hey, say, what can I say?

Speaker 1 I said, tell him the truth. I said, I want to know what you were thinking.
I know what I was thinking. And it was really...

Speaker 1 really surreal to hear him talking about he could see my personality changing. He could see, and like the FBI office might be saying, we want him to patch.

Speaker 1 And he was over here fighting, going, hell no, we're getting everything we need now. If he patches, then they can order him to do shit.
And it was just really cool to hear that.

Speaker 1 But essentially for the case, it was me, an FBI case agent, and two task force officers.

Speaker 1 We had Detective Joe Cummins from Brockton PD, Sergeant Higginbottom from the Massachusetts State Troopers, and then an agent with the FBI. And that was it.

Speaker 1 I mean, they would add some here and there, but for two years, that was it. It was us.
So now we get to this point to where we're like, man, let's do this drug protection.

Speaker 1 And the assistant United States attorney was like, hey, if you're going to be at the clubhouse, or do they talk about this at the clubhouse? Like, yeah.

Speaker 1 And he goes, well, that would be awesome if we could get that recorded because it helps, right? To show what they're planning on doing.

Speaker 1 So the night before the deal is supposed to happen,

Speaker 1 they don't know it, but we've got 40 kilos of real cocaine and a thousand pounds of weed. Real.

Speaker 1 So you can imagine SWAT teams are involved. Because I mean, can you imagine if the FBI lost 40 kilos of cocaine

Speaker 1 and Brockton and Tauntons are all wide awake for the next week, you know, or there's ODs, you know, because that's a liability.

Speaker 1 Did you say you had 40 kilos? There's only 39 here.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 they say, hey, Joe Doggs calls me. It's night of church.
He says, hey, I need you to come to the clubhouse. I'm like, all right, cool.

Speaker 1 And of course, I'm thinking, I'm type A. I'm Scott Payne.
I got this. Let's go do this, man.
These are my boys. I've been doing this a year and a half.

Speaker 1 And I went into the clubhouse and what I couldn't see, and I won't say where the recording devices were at because that's tradecraft.

Speaker 1 But let's just say I had a video and recording device hidden somewhere in my clothing. I had a completely audio recording device somewhere else on me.

Speaker 1 And I had a transmitter battery so the team could listen in.

Speaker 1 And I went into the clubhouse like normal.

Speaker 1 But what you can't see, if you go back and you watch watch the video is if I'm facing this way and I'm shooting the shit with you and this is the bar and you're laughing at my jokes like always, when I would turn my head to look this way,

Speaker 1 it's still filming and I didn't see it because I turned my head. They go stone face.

Speaker 1 And I missed it. I didn't see it.

Speaker 1 I do know that when I got to the clubhouse, I knock on the door, knock on the door, I'm knocking on the door. I'm like, what the, you know, Joe Doggs props and he goes, hey, hey, we're not ready yet.

Speaker 1 And I'll go, why the hell did you tell me to come? I was being a smart. I was like, like,

Speaker 1 what's the deal? Why would you say come if you're not ready? I didn't pick anything up.

Speaker 1 So I go in, and for the listeners that may not know, at least in this clubhouse, if you're not a patch member, which I wasn't, they offered it several times.

Speaker 1 They wanted me to patch, but I'm with what I said for the task force officer. I said the same thing.

Speaker 1 I'm like, look, if I'm a probate and they say, get your shit text, we're going to go jack this dude. I kind of got to go.

Speaker 1 I mean, if I don't do it, I'm either getting kicked out or beat down or whatever.

Speaker 1 But being a high-ranking member of an international theft ring that they're making money off of, it's a little different. We were getting everything we wanted.
So I go in the clubhouse. I miss that.

Speaker 1 I also miss that in the back,

Speaker 1 one of them, Chocolate Scott, it looks like he's dancing to the song that's playing, but he's warming up. And I miss that.

Speaker 1 And then my second closest contact, Clothesline, says, hey, Tex, you got a minute? And I said, yeah.

Speaker 1 And we walk. I'd been in that clubhouse.
I I don't know how many times, Joe,

Speaker 1 but there's one door I've never been in.

Speaker 1 And that's the door we went in. And it was a very tight stairwell into, you can say a basement, but that's being very,

Speaker 1 I'm stretching it because I could probably touch the wall on both sides and I couldn't stand up straight. So they bring me down in there.
They've brandished their weapons.

Speaker 1 One of them walks in behind me. He's on the steps.
So they got their pistols. And my friend says, hey, there's a lot of shit going on.
It's my job to take care of my brothers.

Speaker 1 I need you to write down your full name, your address, your phone number, all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1 And I need you to take off all your clothes. I need to check you for a wire.

Speaker 1 And here's the problem.

Speaker 1 Had I not been wired, embarrassing, yes, naked with a bunch of men around you in a cold basement?

Speaker 1 Yeah,

Speaker 1 that would have been bad, but it would have been no threat.

Speaker 1 But I was wired to the hilt. And

Speaker 1 so you think, man, do you fight? Do you try to get out? Well, there's already two or three there.

Speaker 1 I'm probably going to do some tommy boy shit and knock myself out on the joist as soon as I start trying to fight. And then upstairs, there's what, 10 more outlaws.

Speaker 1 And that door, what I was getting into earlier, I didn't say, if you're not a patch member, you can't touch the door. That door has more than one deadbolt on it.

Speaker 1 They had welded metal hooks to the frame and put one of those like shipyard metal bars across. So from a breacher standpoint, it's a fortified door.
It might be easier to breach the wall next to it.

Speaker 1 So we're down there in the basement. And when I go to write my name down,

Speaker 1 I forgot my middle name. And that's because I was having an oh crap moment.
I had an adrenaline dump. Same thing as cops in shootouts, military in shootouts, somebody in a car wreck first time.

Speaker 1 Everything. When you're having that adrenaline dump, everything slows down.
You get auditory exclusion. So everything you're hearing sounds like you're underwater is going, whoosh.
Whoosh, it's slow.

Speaker 1 Like you're talking to me like this. Time dilation.
Your eyes are clicking. You look and everything's in frames.
Everything's slowing down. Your hamstrings get really rubbery.

Speaker 1 You feel your heart beating. I mean, you feel everything pulsing.

Speaker 1 And what seems like 10, 15 minutes is probably 30 seconds. And that happens.
That's an adrenaline dump. So that was happening.
And I forgot my middle name.

Speaker 1 And I'm going Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway. I start going through this damn Rolodex in my head and I'm going, Scott Calloway, Scott Calloway.
And I'm going Scott Joseph.

Speaker 1 I go, nah, damn it.

Speaker 1 That was my middle name for another alias, you know. And I don't realize that

Speaker 1 I do a distraction technique or something to try to get more intelligence. I would have never known I said it, would have never agreed I said it, had I not seen it in the recording.

Speaker 1 But I turn and I go, and what else do you need? And by the way, you've got a baseline of me now, my voice. It did not sound like this on that recording.
My throat was tight.

Speaker 1 The octaves, I mean, it was very higher than normal. And I'm like not even enunciating that well.
I'm like, and what else do you need?

Speaker 1 And they're like what I go my name and what else well now I hear them scream up and they go what else do you need for that website so now I know oh are they gonna google me back then there was who's a rat.com things like that

Speaker 1 so I'm gathering that evidence or intelligence and then I remember my middle name was my initials were SAC because I'm an idiot and I thought it was funny because I see SAC is the head of an FBI division and I knew I was never going to be one.

Speaker 1 So I made my initials SAC. So I remember my name's Scott Andrew Calloway and then I write that down.
Well, now I take off all my clothes. I take off my outer clothing, all my shirts.

Speaker 1 I take my boots off, and I basically pull my underwear and jeans down around my ankles.

Speaker 1 So pretty much naked from ankles. I mean, I'm definitely naked from ankles up.
And he starts searching me. And I'm, again, I'm having an oh shit moment.
And he's trying to talk to me. And

Speaker 1 it's like we've known each other for a year and a half. So I'm not saying it out loud, but if you saw what my face was saying, what my face is saying and asking is, tell me I'm okay.
Is this okay?

Speaker 1 Well, Clothesline, because we were tight, hits me back with a face look that's like, everything's all right. This is just procedure.

Speaker 1 However, he doesn't know that I'm an undercover agent and I'm wired. So that adds a whole nother issue.

Speaker 1 So he searches me. I think we're done.

Speaker 1 He even at one point, he even tells me, he says,

Speaker 1 trust me, if somebody accused me of being a fed, I'd probably smash them in the fucking mouth. And I said, those are his words.
And I immediately said, well, I'm not happy.

Speaker 1 I'll tell you what I did do. I did look to make sure there was no plastic on the floor.
And I've had people ask me, what does that mean?

Speaker 1 And I go, well, listen, if you're in the criminal underbelly of society and there's plastic on the floor and they're telling you to walk on it,

Speaker 1 yeah.

Speaker 1 It's to clean up the blood. I didn't see that.
I saw a rope. I saw pistols.
And I knew I didn't have a chance in hell of getting out of there in one piece.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 he he finishes and he's he's saying something he goes he goes wouldn't you be suspect if somebody comes to town your town and starts doing all this with you i said yeah if you came to me i didn't come to you guys y'all called me over nobody has to do this

Speaker 1 i'm like what do we you know

Speaker 1 nobody has to do anything right

Speaker 1 and i think we're done so i pull my pants back up and i think we're done and he grabs a piece of clothing of mine and he starts kneading it and going through it now this is 2005 to 2007-ish.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 technology today is way better than it was then, just like technology is. But

Speaker 1 let's just say this. Had he done this down my entire piece of clothing, he would have felt something.

Speaker 1 And he says, as a joke, when he starts, he goes, hey,

Speaker 1 I'm not going to find anything in here. I don't want to.
like some naked pictures of my old lady. And he laughs and his laugh is like, and my laugh is like,

Speaker 1 you know.

Speaker 1 and then I'm watching him go down this pizza's clothing and he's doing this and he's kneading it and and I you can hear I again I don't know how I do it but on the recording you can hear me go

Speaker 1 an audible sigh because I'm like watching it I'm going what the what am I gonna do so here's how it ends

Speaker 1 He doesn't find it. Wow.

Speaker 1 Almost. I mean, like very, very

Speaker 1 And by the way, that first adrenaline dump, I've come back up and now I've got another adrenaline dump. And now I've come in.
I'm like, son of those peaks and valleys. And

Speaker 1 everybody that I've taught this to or spoke about it to always ask, they're like, man, what would you have said? And I'll tell you, I had two responses. Because I'm a jovial idiot.

Speaker 1 My first response, if he would have said, what is this? I would have probably said, I don't know, some naked pictures of the old lady to try to buy myself some time, maybe make him quit searching.

Speaker 1 The only other thing I had, Joe, is, and I remember it like it was yesterday, I would have said the gig is up.

Speaker 1 I'm an undercover FBI agent, and I can walk out of here and we can see each other in court or all hell is going to break loose. Here's the issue, as I get a swig.

Speaker 1 That would have been a bluff on my part, because as far as I knew, Every time I was in that clubhouse, my cover team could never hear me.

Speaker 1 For whatever reasons, because somebody's going to say it's tradecraft but again this is 2005 to 2008 but they could never really hear me in that clubhouse and

Speaker 1 i make it out

Speaker 1 uh i end up going out with scott town and joe dogs that night but what happens is i am legitimately pissed off because now my adrenaline's coming back down and i'm i'm taking it personal i shouldn't I'm undercover as an FBI agent.

Speaker 1 I'm not really Scott Calloway. I mean, I'm kind of.

Speaker 2 But you're so deep in the role.

Speaker 1 Well, and it's really me, kind of. I mean, that's the the whole thing.
I never was far off of who I really am in life. A pedophile? Yeah.
You're hiring me to kill somebody?

Speaker 1 No, I'm not going to ingratiate with you. I'm a stone cold killer.
But I'm hanging with you for two years or a year and a half or whatever. Yeah, the jokes are kind of the same.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 I'm pissed. And at one point, I'm telling Joe Doggers, I'm like, you know what, man? F all you sons.
I said, y'all show up tomorrow? I said, I'm stripping all y'all in the damn parking lot.

Speaker 1 You know, I was just, well,

Speaker 1 they were nice. They let me vent my stuff.

Speaker 1 Well, that night when I went to turn in my equipment in an undisclosed location, probably three, four or five in the morning to the case team,

Speaker 1 what I found out was this.

Speaker 1 The shift started with Sergeant Higginbottom. Everybody called him Higgy and Joe, the detectives, the detective.

Speaker 1 These guys are awesome. Phenomenal law enforcement officers.

Speaker 1 Although I think their love language is yelling.

Speaker 1 Maybe that's my southern thing mixing with the Northeast thing, but

Speaker 1 they told me, they said, Scott, we heard you in there. And I'm like, what?

Speaker 1 When I had that first interaction with Joe Doggs, they are very street smart. They're very good investigators.
And they had been working this group forever.

Speaker 1 Something that happened in that first interaction made their spotty senses, or the Holy Spirit, if you're a believer,

Speaker 1 say, something's not right. They had pulled close enough.
They heard everything. They put on their vest.
They suited up.

Speaker 1 And because they'd been in that clubhouse before and knew that door system, their plan was to drive the van into the cinder block wall next to the door. Oh my gosh.
Just to smash that.

Speaker 1 You know, sometimes I'm teaching this. I'll joke about it and say it probably would have killed me because I was in the basement.

Speaker 1 Reverse, back up.

Speaker 1 You're so damn heavy. But at that moment, I was scared to death, right? So they tell me what happened was they pulled close enough, they heard everything.
They're suiting up.

Speaker 1 They have radioed now because it's kind of the beginning of the shift. They've radioed now back to Boston.

Speaker 1 Everybody that's working that night is now blue lights and siren all the way down to the hall and ass to Taunton, Massachusetts.

Speaker 1 So I say this in a jovial way, but the case agent was actually a good friend of mine. We went through the FBI Academy together.
And that night,

Speaker 1 again, I'm still shell-shocked. He says, man, when I was coming down the highway with my blue lights and sirens on, I felt like I was in there with you.

Speaker 1 And I looked at him and I said, you weren't.

Speaker 1 I said, because I was looking for any friendly face I could find in that damn hole. But

Speaker 1 so

Speaker 1 that night, we haven't talked about my family. I try not, well, I take it back.
In the book, I'm very transparent about where things went south with the family, where my marriage almost ended.

Speaker 1 you know, 911 hang-ups and stuff like that. But at that point in time,

Speaker 1 I'd bought my wife. Everybody's pretty familiar now with the burner phone.

Speaker 1 but I'd bought my wife a phone that came back to nothing so my undercover phone could call that phone, not violating the operational security.

Speaker 1 That night, Joe, when I called her, I'd always call her every night.

Speaker 1 Again, five, seven in the morning, didn't matter. And it might just be, she wakes up and says, hello.
And I go, hey, I just want you to know I'm done. Heading back to the hotel room.

Speaker 1 Whenever I wake up this afternoon, I'll call you. It might be that quick.
That night when I called her,

Speaker 1 the first thing she said to me was, are you okay?

Speaker 1 And I said, she felt it. I said, yeah, why? And she said, I was driving with our daughters at such and such time in McAllen.

Speaker 1 And she said, she got this overwhelming feeling and pulled over on the side of the road and started praying for me. And I matched it up.
It's when I was in the basement.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 say what you will, but

Speaker 1 damn. Wow.
Yeah. Apparently, my old shit signal.

Speaker 1 Apparently, I don't need Verizon or anything because it went from Boston all the way to the bottom of Texas. But it's just,

Speaker 1 I mean, that's just one of the little, one of the things that happened, and it just takes a toll on you every time.

Speaker 1 I can only imagine. Yeah.
So I'll get you to the next day. We do the deal.
Clothesline doesn't show up. Well, that pisses me off.
Wait a minute.

Speaker 1 You're supposed to be my boy, and you took me into the damn basement and stripped me at gunpoint.

Speaker 1 But you can't come up. You don't show up the next day and help with this thing? Again, I'm taking it personal.
I shouldn't.

Speaker 1 shouldn't so everybody knew there was a beef let's just fast forward a month or two i go back home i come back and big scotty had even said he goes look these guys are going to settle this like grown men face to face and they're going to happen over the damn phone so the next time i go back to massachusetts i'm at a cantina we used to go hang at and drink at in bridgewater and uh another hard town yeah yeah uh

Speaker 1 so uh yeah these are my people this is where i get called

Speaker 1 we did not do any meetings at the Long Wharf Marriott. You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 Why would you like to meet me at Legal Seafoods tonight? My fellow criminals, you know?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So I'm at this cantina and Clothesline walks in. Now, you got to remember the last time I saw this dude, he took me into a damn basement.
And

Speaker 1 he looked a little rough, like a little whipped, you know, like he'd been disheveled.

Speaker 1 And he says, hey, man, can I talk to you for a minute? And the first thing I said was no.

Speaker 1 And he says, Why? I said, Because the last time you asked me that shit, I ended up naked in the basement.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 So he says, nice like that. So we went back in the kitchen and we're talking.
And what we learned, or what I learned, and the case team learned, is

Speaker 1 when we upped the ante to do that drug deal,

Speaker 1 and again, a lot of those outlaws were pushing for it because as a drug dealer, what are you always looking for? Cheaper product, higher quality. It's just more money for you, right?

Speaker 1 So he was really, especially Joe Dog, they wanted to get a pipeline.

Speaker 1 They wanted to get an introduction to the cartel so they could get quality dope, you know, and have a, have a very successful business.

Speaker 1 So I'm in there with him and I'm ready. I'm ready to go to Blows if we have to.
And he starts talking to me and he says,

Speaker 1 you know, Scott, he said,

Speaker 1 what had happened, what I was going to tell you, is that the call went up to the top. And the top to us meant Milwaukee Jack was the national president.

Speaker 1 And this makes a hard argument for when they say, it's not an organization.

Speaker 1 You do your own stuff. We only DEM each other.
Nobody knows each other's business. Well, then how did it go to the top of the outlaws who said, has this guy ever really been checked?

Speaker 1 And they go back and say, well, we've done like six to eight jobs with him and we're not in bracelets, meaning handcuffs. He said, I don't care.
Check them.

Speaker 1 So now that's when I get stripped in the basement.

Speaker 1 I learned that. And this is what Clothesline tells me.
And you got to remember, my mindset is, screw this guy. I'm ready to go to blows.
I'm not going to look like a bitch.

Speaker 1 And he says, man, I know I was born to be an outlaw. I'm either going to die young or die in jail.
He said, and these are my brothers. He said, but I really don't have a lot of friends.

Speaker 1 And he said, ones that I know would take a bullet from me and I'd take a bullet for them. And that's when I start looking at his face and I'm going, oh, shit, don't you say it, man.

Speaker 1 Don't you say it. And he says, and you're one of those people.

Speaker 1 So now I'm like, ugh. And he says, the reason he didn't show up is because he felt so bad for what he had to do to me in the basement that night.

Speaker 1 He got so obliterated that night, he was passed out through the whole drug deal the next day.

Speaker 1 So that night when I call my wife,

Speaker 1 she says, hello. And my first words are, or she's like, how's it going? How did it go? My first words are, I am a dick.
I go, I am such a dick. This guy loves me.
He cares about me.

Speaker 1 Now, that's the real side. That's the human side.
Now, there might be, you know, we don't train that way. We tell you, look, that's not you, but I'm still human.
I'm out there. I'm out there.

Speaker 1 I'm surprised we hadn't said this yet. A lot of times, if I'm speaking or teaching or whatever, I'll put up there, what does undercover mean to you? So I'll ask you, what do you think undercover is?

Speaker 1 You're pretending. Okay, you're pretending.

Speaker 2 You infiltrate an organization, pretend to be one of them.

Speaker 1 I get that a lot.

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Speaker 1 I get lying.

Speaker 1 We hear acting. You're a character.

Speaker 1 Here is the definition of undercover work. You are building relationships that you're going to betray.

Speaker 1 And that sucks. If you look at it that way.

Speaker 2 Especially if you genuinely genuinely have something in common with these guys and you actually like their company.

Speaker 1 Now, don't get me wrong. If you haven't done anything illegal, well, then no, I'm really not.

Speaker 1 I mean, I guess I'm still betraying you because you thought I was somebody else, but we're not arresting you. I've done undercovers like that.
Those happen all the time.

Speaker 1 You're in there for five months and you're like, there's nothing federal here. I mean, they're just,

Speaker 1 they're within their constitutional rights, and you just bail.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 you have to,

Speaker 1 you are basically building and betraying relationships, especially if you're gathering evidence of criminal activity and you need to know how you're going to deal with that rationalize that in your mind so it doesn't have an adverse impact on your psyche and that's that's tough you know uh i'll fast forward you a little bit i i i i crashed on that case for the three-year period um i'd been going non-stop and i'm not saying i'm tough uh i met my threshold I think your threshold changes every day, just like your comfort zone.

Speaker 1 Some days I take off jogging at 54 years old. Sometimes I take off running and I go, it's going to be a damn good day.
I feel light, fluffy, floating on the, floating on the cloud.

Speaker 1 Some days I take off running and I go, how long have I been running? Two minutes. Damn, it's going to be a long day.
You know, so your comfort zone changes. I think your threshold changes, but

Speaker 1 I go into great detail in the book, but

Speaker 1 for three years, I had been doing too much.

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 I say doing too much, but even when I moved to Tennessee, I did too much again. I just learned how to balance it better.

Speaker 1 I'm a workaholic. I love working.
I love doing it off. SWAT call-outs, running tactical schools here, case agent first, building cases, putting bad people in jail undercover.

Speaker 1 But I had stopped taking days off because I didn't want to give management a reason to tell me I couldn't go do an undercover.

Speaker 1 I just worked through the weekend or be undercover through the weekend, come back, type up all my stuff, then run my cases, teaching all the tactics and firearms for McAllen and Brownsville agents,

Speaker 1 resident agents, which is just a satellite offices out of San Antonio, on SWAT, running firearms for them, stuff like that. And I just stopped taking care of myself.
So we get to a point to where,

Speaker 1 like I said, in great detail in the book, but just picture this. I already gave you a little bit of a blurb on the undercover school, right? Two weeks, no days off.

Speaker 1 Let's just say I'm there for 10 days. Well, once we put you to bed, we're probably going to hang out and drink a little bit because you're my peer and it's also therapy.
And I have it.

Speaker 1 It's good to know that you're not on an island by yourself, that there are other people doing the same thing you are. And there's a lot of bonding that goes on there.

Speaker 1 But that means for 10 days, I'm not getting a whole lot of sleep. And I probably got too much alcohol in my system if we're being transparent.

Speaker 1 But then I leave straight from that undercover school. and I go right into an undercover.

Speaker 1 And let's just say I land in Sturgis, which I did, and the Hells Angels shoot five outlaws at point-blank range, my first day there. Like I ain't even been in town like an hour.

Speaker 1 Now there's two old ladies, two past members and a probate, but they're all shot. They confirmed it was the Hells Angels.
We're talking paralyzed from the waist down for life.

Speaker 1 We're talking shot, crushed clavicles. I mean, not just like a zinger.

Speaker 1 And now you're back doing that for days on end. And when I would get home, I would stop taking care of myself.
I got to the point to where I was a walking zombie.

Speaker 1 I was on antihistamines, decongestants, inhalers. I was taking hydroxycuts like crazy.
I was making the strongest coffee I could possibly make. And I'd drink a pot of coffee and fall asleep.

Speaker 1 So what I learned through the book process, even though I'd learned a lot already, I found out from my wife. I was a ghost, man.
I'd come home from SWAT, work, undercover, whatever.

Speaker 1 I'd be on the couch. My daughters would be on my lap.
I'd help put them to bed. But my wife couldn't even ask me a simple question about the bills.
You know, hey, there's this bill.

Speaker 1 I got, do whatever you got. I can't think.

Speaker 1 I just need to. And she wanted to do everything she could to support me and just let me veg and not put any, not put anything on my plate.

Speaker 1 So we get to the end of the outlaw case, and I'm starting to crash.

Speaker 1 Didn't know it.

Speaker 1 If you are a certified undercover and you were active in the FBI, you mandatorily have to be psychologically assessed twice a year.

Speaker 1 That whole thing is called safeguard. I'm not outing anything.
It's out there. It's on the internet.

Speaker 1 But the safeguard process was created by Joe Pistone, Donny Brasco. It was created by Joe and a former agent who was, his background was a clinical psychologist, Steve Band.

Speaker 1 And they came up with this because Joe, you got to remember when Joe was undercover, there was no attorney general guidelines.

Speaker 1 There probably wasn't even an operational procedure manual for undercovers. It was like, here's money, here's your recorders, go make a case.
He was one of the first 25 undercovers in the FBI in 1972.

Speaker 1 That happened right after Hoover left. Hoover did not believe in the undercover technique, but as soon as he was out, they started working undercover.

Speaker 1 But the safeguard process goes like you take a bunch of psychological tests, and then you're going to sit down, you're going to take a break. It's going to put a bunch of numbers into some charts.

Speaker 1 You're going to sit down with a clinical psychologist. They may be an agent for the FBI, or they may be contracted in.
They're going to go over all that stuff with you.

Speaker 1 They're going to dive deep into your psyche. Try to.

Speaker 1 And then after that, you're going to sit down with somebody like a Piston or an experienced undercover. Because you know the old saying, you can't bullshit a bullshitter?

Speaker 1 Well, we use undercover, UC, as a verb. You can't UC a UC.

Speaker 1 So I remember going to take one of the tests as an open-ended sentence. You have to fill in the blanks.
So I'm on my way to Daytona at a world run with the Outlaws,

Speaker 1 still rolling heavy in the case. And

Speaker 1 I stopped off at an undisclosed location to do the assessment. And I remember like the opening of the sentence might be, men are, and you got to finish it.
I'd always say men. Women are.

Speaker 1 I'd put women. They'd be like, what do you mean? I go, you know what I mean.
That's, I'm not open in that can of worms.

Speaker 1 No, we're different. How's that?

Speaker 1 But there was one that said, the last time I relaxed, I.

Speaker 1 And I couldn't think anything. Wow.
Nothing. And that's not me BSing.
I'm like sitting there at the table going,

Speaker 1 well, I work out all the time. I'm like, but that's not relaxing.
It's not like I'm Namaste and listen to Yanni and shit. I'm like, I'm trying to throw 45s across the gym, you know?

Speaker 1 But I'm like, hmm. So I just made up a story.

Speaker 1 Even at that moment, I thought, man, that's really screwed up. Wow.
But I was like, yeah, it ain't a big deal. And

Speaker 1 again, way more detail in the book. But the thing that happened to me was I ended up out and out partying with outlaws and mongos all night.

Speaker 1 I wake up the next morning. I mean, you can hear and feel the whiskey and eggs squishing in your belly.
You know that.

Speaker 1 And I'm like,

Speaker 1 I just feel disgusted. I'm going to start working out.
So I'm in the hotel room doing,

Speaker 1 before P90 came out, but kind of that thing. Burpees, mountain climbers, push-ups, air squats, sit-ups, all this stuff.

Speaker 1 And I came up, and by the way, this is after I hit the inhaler, took a decongestant, antihistamine, three hydroxycuts, two cups of coffee. I don't know if there's anything else in there.

Speaker 1 I later learned that that was basically a cocktail for an anxiety attack.

Speaker 1 I was like, who knew?

Speaker 1 Doesn't make a lot of sense. But I had an anxiety attack.
I was trying to work out. I came up for air, hyperventilated, forgot all about combat breathing, forgot about paper bags.

Speaker 1 But did I stop? Did I say, man, that's really screwed up? No, I took a nap, got up, started drinking Jack Daniels, and went back. But when I flew home,

Speaker 1 I slept wheels up to wheels down till I hit Houston. And then I slept wheels up to wheels down until I got to McAllen.

Speaker 1 And I think probably the first two days, I might have slept close to 20 hours a day.

Speaker 1 But for the whole week,

Speaker 1 from like Sunday to Friday, I slept an average of 16. plus hours a day.
Wow. And I wasn't, I wasn't depressed.
I wasn't sick. I know what they both feel like.
I was that damn tired.

Speaker 1 So by Friday morning, I take a phone call from a former good buddy of mine.

Speaker 1 He is probably one of the best undercovers I've ever seen.

Speaker 1 But he was calling me about a possible another biker case. And his first question was, How you doing, country? And I'm like, not too good.

Speaker 1 And then he let me talk for an hour and convinced myself I needed a cost safeguard. So I called him.
They came in and did an on-site assessment. They

Speaker 1 diagnosed me as overassigned. And they said, you can continue the case on the phone until they take it down.

Speaker 1 And I stayed on the phone.

Speaker 1 I made a story up because I'd gotten married technically and I told them I was getting a divorce but I had to relocate my wife and my kids to El Paso where her family was at.

Speaker 1 Once that's done, I'm pulling chocks. I'm coming to Massachusetts.
We had already created, it was in the creation,

Speaker 1 our own biker club that it was approved by the top of the outlaws to be the number one support club in the Northeast. And we were going to name it the Righteous View.

Speaker 1 scott town was going to be the president i was going to be an officer in it uh sergeant in arms and uh

Speaker 1 and i never went back up there because they told me i couldn't when you get put on timeout it's like you no travel uh you can be a case agent um we're going to suggest to your division no travel uh definitely no undercover work um

Speaker 1 there was some confusion there because one of the arguments is you need to ingrain you need to

Speaker 1 You need to get back into being a case agent and remember what you're supposed to be doing. And I'm like, I never stopped being a case agent.

Speaker 1 I'm running all these damn cases while all this is going on. But

Speaker 1 I took a timeout.

Speaker 1 I made some phone calls. There was one guy named Tim Sylvia, not the fighter, who is a buddy now, by the way.

Speaker 1 This guy's name was Tim Sylvia. He had been in prison most of his life.

Speaker 1 But before I stopped going up there, he was introduced to me. He knew about the cocaine.
He knew about what I did. He calls me and says, man, I got some stolen vehicles vehicles for you.

Speaker 1 I'm in the magic powder business. If you can get me those bricks or whatever he called them code on the phone for 18 a piece, I can buy 10 of them right now.

Speaker 1 So I call the case team and said, look, he's reaching out to me. I can't come back up there.

Speaker 1 So we rigged it up to where the guys that were posing as my truck drivers went. And they were going to pick up these stolen vehicles.

Speaker 1 They had like a seven Series BMW worth 100 plus grand at the time and some other vehicles.

Speaker 1 While they were with him, so here I am on timeout in my garage, sweating my tail off in McAllen, and I've got my two phones. I'm talking to the undercovers.
I'm talking to Tim Sylvia.

Speaker 1 I'm telling them where to go. They're being covered.
They go, they meet. While they're meeting Tim,

Speaker 1 the truck driver, supposed to play in my truck driver, calls me. You can hear me clearly on the recording.
I'm talking on it, and I tell him how much to pay Tim for the stolen vehicles.

Speaker 1 And Tim was like, hey, I'm going to report the BMW stolen on Friday. And I said, can you make it Saturday? It gives me 24 hours more to get this thing into Mexico.
And they did that.

Speaker 1 And then when they went to load the vehicles, he hit them for an 18, a key for 10 keys. And they said yes.
And they ended the case with them doing a ruse delivery of that dope.

Speaker 1 And so you ask about the relationships. So this is how it ends.
I'm in Nevada helping put on an undercover school.

Speaker 1 That was one thing that Safeguard said I could go to because they also knew they could do many assessments, watch me, put me around other undercovers, make sure I'm not losing my shit.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I can't remember the time difference to Massachusetts, but I've already been drawing up diagrams of all these houses and clubhouses I've been in, and I'm, you know, sending those to all these SWAT teams all over the Northeast that are going to be hitting all these places.

Speaker 1 And I got back to my hotel room, and I always kept my undercover phone.

Speaker 1 Well, the case wasn't ever technically yet anyway, but I always kept my undercover phones on for at least a month after a case went down, in case you got threatened or anything like that.

Speaker 1 Well, I get back to my room and my nextel's chirping. And I check and it's Scott Town.
He's left me a message. So I chirp him up and he's all raspy voice because he's been just woken up.

Speaker 1 And he's like, hey, man, I just want you to know

Speaker 1 your truck driver, Tony, and the other guy, they were beating Big Timmy. And I don't know what happened, but I think they all got locked up.
Well, he doesn't know that I'm an undercover.

Speaker 1 He's telling me that that was the takedown day. So he's calling me and I'm like, oh, I said, well, you know what, brother, I appreciate that.
I said,

Speaker 1 I don't always control everything they do. Sometimes they do side jobs on their own.
I said,

Speaker 1 they were not up there for me, but I'll try to find out what's going on. He said, let me tell you what I'm going to do.
He said, I'm going to get up, get cleaned up.

Speaker 1 I'm going to find out what the hell's going on. I'm going to call you back.
And I said, okay. His last words to me were,

Speaker 1 I'm going to get chucked up. His last words to me were, I love you, brother.
And I chirped back and I said, I love you too.

Speaker 1 And he didn't know that a SWAT team was going to be hitting him in about 40 minutes. Wow.
That's the last time I talked to him. He'll probably hear this.

Speaker 1 I got a 50-50 shot. If he walks up, I'll hug him.
He probably wants to beat the shit out of me, but Jesus.

Speaker 1 Man.

Speaker 2 Is he out?

Speaker 1 Yeah, he's out now. How much time did he do? I think he did like eight.
Eight or ten, somewhere in there.

Speaker 2 Do you have this anxiety of running into those guys somewhere?

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Speaker 1 Yes and no.

Speaker 1 It really comes with a job. However, somebody pointed pointed out a difference to me the other day.

Speaker 1 I'm like, look, man, as a cop or as an agent, you're locking people up up and they're getting out.

Speaker 1 You know, if you get threatened in Greenville County, if you're working for Greenville County Sheriff's Office, let's say we're here. Was it Travis County?

Speaker 1 If you get a threat, a legit threat in Travis County, do you think they got the money in the budget or they would even spend money in their budget to move you to another town? No.

Speaker 1 But in the FBI, we have that. You hit the threat system, they move you somewhere, change a bunch of stuff.

Speaker 1 So in law enforcement, there's always been, you can lock people up, you go to the grocery store, you're with your wife and kids, and you see them.

Speaker 1 Everybody handles handles it their own way. For me, my best defense is a good offense.
I'll just walk right up to you. Hey, man,

Speaker 1 holy shit, how are you doing?

Speaker 1 I cannot believe. When did you get out? Are you okay? Hey, are you on the straight and narrow now? You know, because I'm going to tell you, transparent,

Speaker 1 there's few things I love more than a success story. Sadly, they're very rare in my 28-year career.
But to see somebody who

Speaker 1 broke the law, got out, turned themselves around, and are doing great, I love it.

Speaker 2 You do see some of those. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I'll help them. I'm helping one right now.
I told them, I said, look, if you're doing the right thing, they're like, well, I got a felon on my record.

Speaker 1 I'm like, well, who better to be a reference for you on your application than the guy who gave you the felon?

Speaker 1 If you're doing the right thing, I'll talk for you. Wow.
We all mess up. I mean, shit, you know.

Speaker 2 But that's got to be so complicated because you're the guy who got him arrested.

Speaker 1 It is.

Speaker 1 And I have had threats that were legit, and I've had them at the sheriff's office where I was like, what do we do?

Speaker 1 And my lieutenant is like, we're going to get some cops and we're going to knock on that dude's door. Okay.

Speaker 1 And I've also been in the FBI where you could have gotten moved. And I decided, no, I'm not.
Once that case gets taken down, I'm overt. Like a lot of people may not know it.

Speaker 1 I'm not trying to insult intelligence, but when you're arrested, I may be arrested with you. I may not be.
There's all kinds of ways we can do a takedown.

Speaker 1 But eventually you're going to be sitting with your defense attorney and you're going to get discovery. And discovery is supposed to be everything.

Speaker 1 Now, there have been FBI people who did not turn over everything, and it was very wrong, and we are still paying the price for it. But discovery is supposed to be everything.

Speaker 1 And at that point, you're going to hear me on a preamble. You're going to hear me go, let's see, what's the day? You're going to hear me go, this is UCE, undercover employee.

Speaker 1 This is UCE 1-2, whatever. It's Wednesday, March 26th, Central Time, 2.45 p.m.
I'm about to walk in to meet Joe. And they're going to hear that, and they're going to know that I'm the undercover.

Speaker 1 They may not know my last name's Payne, but they're they're going to know. Now, what somebody pointed out to me was, you know,

Speaker 1 as a cop, though, you're just doing your job and you're arresting them. As an undercover, you've lied to them.
And I went, hmm, probably should have thought about that before I did the book, huh?

Speaker 1 Damn.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 I try not to.

Speaker 1 I don't want to live my life in fear. I'm an optimist.
I'm a glass, always half-full guy.

Speaker 2 God, that's hard to believe given your circumstances.

Speaker 1 I don't know how, for me personally, I don't know how to survived otherwise. Because if I was doom and gloom and the glass is always half empty,

Speaker 1 maybe this is a good time to interject this. First responders, military.
Do you know what we're number? I'm talking fire medic cop

Speaker 1 military. You know what we're number one in? Suicide.
Suicide. You know what else we're number one in? Divorce.
Alcoholism. Throw in pills or whatever you want there.

Speaker 1 We're also number one in dying within five years after retiring.

Speaker 1 Who signs up for that? Right. You know, hell yeah.
First in hell. Second in heaven.
No.

Speaker 1 No.

Speaker 1 I'll pass. But yeah, so that hurt.
I mean, it's very, it's surreal.

Speaker 1 And yeah, great job. But yeah, I mean, I'm human.
And

Speaker 1 I did really bond with that guy. And just like I felt like a piece of trash when Clothesline told me that I was really, he considered me really his friend.
Wow. You know, so how is he doing now?

Speaker 1 I don't know if he's out or not. He had, he was supposed to get, I think he got 12 and a half, but I didn't keep up with it.
I mean, sometimes people go to jail.

Speaker 1 They pick up some more charges because they did something stupid in jail. But I will tell you,

Speaker 1 talking on that success story thing, most of my career,

Speaker 1 with the exception of a pedophile,

Speaker 1 almost everybody I've arrested, I'll sit down with them and I'll say, listen, I'm not saying I think you're a bad person. I'm not saying I disagree with what you did.

Speaker 1 What I'm saying is, is you're an adult. You made a choice to break the law and you got caught.
So let's just start right here. This is whatever, this is all I got.
This is on the table.

Speaker 1 Let's don't do that dating game BS where you lie to me for two months and I lie to you for two months. And then when we were figuring out, we figured out we really do kind of like each other.

Speaker 1 Now I can tell you the truth. This is what I got.
And it's just, it's not dehumanizing. And there's still people.
And I love connecting with people, like I said. Wow.

Speaker 2 That's a great attitude.

Speaker 2 Did you ever think, like, while you're talking to people like Scott Town, like, man, if my life had been different, I'd gone down the wrong roads, grew up in a different neighborhood,

Speaker 1 you would be one of them. Absolutely.
Yeah. Absolutely.
That's why we had so much in common. Yeah, that's part of the problem with life.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Everybody wants to pretend that that could never be me.

Speaker 1 No,

Speaker 1 it could have easily been me. And I'm like, I looked at it and I'm like, it's that proverbial fork in the road.
I went that way, but I could have easily went that way. Yeah.

Speaker 1 That's why I got along with them so much.

Speaker 1 know

Speaker 1 Again, other than like pedophile stuff.

Speaker 2 So what pedophile stuff did you have to do?

Speaker 1 Actually,

Speaker 1 one of the quickest undercovers I ever did was the most satisfying. And I actually did this one, I think, before the Outlaws.

Speaker 1 It was in San Antonio.

Speaker 1 There was a guy that got picked up from a less than a kid.

Speaker 1 And I didn't know the whole backstory, but in the San Antonio vision, the agents and stuff knew me, or the SWAT people, they knew I'm the undercover guy.

Speaker 1 And they called me up because while he was in Bear County in San Antonio, he approached

Speaker 1 somebody in jail, solicited them to kill the kid or to find somebody that could kill the kid. A lot of these murder for hire plans are stupid, but that actually wasn't too bad of a plan.

Speaker 1 Like if the kids,

Speaker 1 these cases are tough. They suck.

Speaker 1 They're atrocious. They are, I mean, it's a waste of oxygen, in my personal opinion.
But it's usually a kid from a broken home. It's after the fact.
It's an adult versus a kid.

Speaker 1 But he knew he wasn't going to do well in prison. So he approached somebody in prison who then, as most people who are serving time do, they are trying to get credit to get out.

Speaker 1 And that person called his attorney and that attorney called the FBI and they worked it out to where he introd me. So I drive up to Bear County.
I sign in because he put me on the list. I go in.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I'm in the phone bank. It's It's all stainless steel.
You can't hear nothing but baby mamas and everybody's screaming and cussing and pissed off.

Speaker 1 And here I am trying to get this recording through this glass. And I'm talking to the guy.
And I said, you know who I am? He's like, yeah.

Speaker 1 I said, well, I hope you do because you put me on your list to come see you. You know what I do? And he's like, yes.
I was like slow rolling it. I didn't know.
I didn't want to scare him off.

Speaker 1 So I was like, you know, I'm in the extermination business. And he's like, yeah.
I said, I kill pests for a living. He said, yep, that's exactly what I wanted.
And I had a picture of the kid.

Speaker 1 Of course, we're working with a family on this, but I had a picture of the kid just walking like a surveillance photo. And I put it up on the window and I said, is this the pest

Speaker 1 that you want taken care of? Something to that effect. And clearly on the recording, thank you, Lord.
It picked it up. He said, that's him.
So you're not going to call a bug a him, right?

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 what I found out is I met him twice,

Speaker 1 just a two-meet thing.

Speaker 1 But what I found out from the solicitor's office in Bear County, it was mostly women working it because it was the crimes against children was combined with the domestic violence unit.

Speaker 1 And Joe, when I went walking in there and they're like, this is Scott, I mean, they all stood up. It's like some TV show.
They stood up and they started clapping. I'm like, I don't understand.

Speaker 1 And they said me chest beating. That's not what I'm trying.
But it's like, what is going on? They're like, thank you so much. You're so.
And I'm like, I appreciate it, but I'm doing my job.

Speaker 1 What they told me is that guy had walked on four molestation cases before.

Speaker 1 And he also walked on some possession of

Speaker 1 somehow he got out of possession of child pornography stuff.

Speaker 1 And but when he found out, when they approached him and said I was in undercover and that they got him, he pled guilty to hiring me to kill the kid and pled guilty to the molestation of the kid.

Speaker 1 Matter of fact, when I was talking to him the first time, he threw me off guard. Because he starts, he was like, yeah, yeah.
And I go, all right, well, what do you got? This, that, and the other.

Speaker 1 We're talking. And he goes, Hey, I'd like you to kill the rest of his family, too.
They're in Wisconsin. And I actually giggled a little bit because it threw me off.
I went, well,

Speaker 1 I'm not above traveling, but let's deal with one pest at a time. I'm like, I'm thinking in my head, dad, gone, man.
You know, but he knew, as most pedophiles do, you're not going to do well in prison.

Speaker 2 So his idea was to kill the kid, kill the family, and then there's no evidence? Like, he didn't.

Speaker 1 Yeah, he just gets to walk because there's no witness to show up to trial. Jesus Christ.
Right?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 then being around that stuff, like I've had trainees that, you know, you get a new agent, they come in, they assign you as the training agent, and they might be working that stuff.

Speaker 1 And I will tell you, for me personally,

Speaker 1 that's tough to work for me. This is before I even had girls, before I even had kids.
I remember seeing like, I don't know, like five images.

Speaker 1 We hit a guy, he was actually a professor at University of Texas, Pan Am, and he was so vigilant. I mean, he had like, he had all the

Speaker 1 child porn videos broken down by ethnicity, age, sex. Oh, Jesus.
So, I mean, you could say, I want Asian male 11, and he would have, I mean,

Speaker 1 and it was just sick. Now, did he come from a messed up thing? Yeah.
Turns out his mother had molested him and his brother.

Speaker 1 We'd tie them in the basement, tie them to each other, make them have sex with each other. Oh, my God.
But it's horrific. But break the chain, man.
Break the chain.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, I saw like five photos, and I was messed up for probably a week or two. A professor.
Yeah, my wife would try to, she'd try to touch me.

Speaker 1 Not even just to be in, I mean, you know, just to touch, and I'd be like, uh-uh. No.

Speaker 1 I'm like, I can't, man. I got to get this shit out of my head.
Wow. Now, later on in undercovers, I could be the guy to drive and pick you up.
I could show you pictures.

Speaker 1 Is this what you want, kind of thing? But to like sit there and look through that stuff, my brain's not cut out for that.

Speaker 1 But there are those who are.

Speaker 1 And in the FBI, if you're looking at that, you have to be psychologically assessed as well as you should I could only imagine how are these guys getting these videos

Speaker 2 are they making them Joe it is there's like see that's the thing right this is one of the great

Speaker 2 huge it's one of the so freaking huge that's the scary thing because most people aren't aware of it and this is one of the big conspiracy theories that there's these pedophile rings out there but they're real yeah Yeah, human trafficking.

Speaker 1 Now, I can sway on some of the human trafficking stuff because I've seen human trafficking from the border all the way to the hotel room.

Speaker 1 If it's

Speaker 1 rarely a hooker ever on free will or an escort of on free will, but if they're out there doing, I don't know, it gets a little muddy on some of the trafficking stuff for me personally, but it's still trafficking.

Speaker 1 They got brought in when they were underage. Now they're a product of what they've been forced to do.
You know, that's uh it's very sad. But as far as the child porn stuff goes, it's insane.

Speaker 1 I've worked with some, they call them ICACs,

Speaker 1 crimes against children,

Speaker 1 and there's so much out there, but

Speaker 1 there was so much at one. This is just me in Tennessee.
I'm with them. They have so many hits on whatever dark web thing it is.
It might be Discord. I'm trying to think of what it used to be.

Speaker 1 But there's all kinds of stuff like that that they'll go to these what they believe or what are encrypted apps that are based overseas.

Speaker 1 So they don't think that the FBI or feds here, the alphabet boys and girls, can do subpoenas and get that stuff. That's why they use those.
Now, does that mean that everybody on Discord is bad?

Speaker 1 Absolutely not. Telegram, no.
But do people go there to do bad things? Yep. Yeah.
And it's just like you could go, I remember them showing me stuff as the undercover coordinator.

Speaker 1 I'm over there and I'm looking at stuff and they're showing me what all the hits they've got right now, just people hitting.

Speaker 1 And through the databases, you could do knock and talks every freaking day, all day long. Hey, man, how are you doing? Hey, matter if we look at your computer, you might not get in there, but yeah,

Speaker 1 it's a mess.

Speaker 1 A mess.

Speaker 2 And so there's a whole ring of people all across the country.

Speaker 1 Yeah, or just mom and pops farming out their kids. Oh, my God.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Sex across state lines. Oh,

Speaker 1 yeah. Not good at all.

Speaker 1 There's just

Speaker 1 like, again, I'll mention McAllen several times. This isn't undercover stuff.
But case agent stuff, I mean,

Speaker 1 might look at doing a book on case agent stuff. I was down there working the cartel with me and the people I worked with.
That was back when Oziel Cardanas ran the golf cartel. So it was violent.

Speaker 1 Violent as you know what, but there was some kind of SOP. There was like a procedure.

Speaker 1 But I mean,

Speaker 1 when I try to tell people, I'm like, look, I don't care whether you're left or right. I meet all kinds of people.
If you're extreme left, I'm probably going to tell you you're an idiot.

Speaker 1 If you're extreme right, I know you're an idiot because I've been with them.

Speaker 1 i'm like i just want to bring it which was so funny is you start here and you go far left and they're like i want it i'm a socialist i'm a socialist i want everything for free i want it and you start here on the far right and they're like i want hitler i want hitler but that's socialism you get here it's the same they just want stuff for free i want all whites well that'll fix everything you know yeah it's just it's insane but down on the border you tell people you're like man they just I'm not saying that I'm not trying to shed a bad light on Mexico and stuff, but a lot of it runs on corruption.

Speaker 1 A lot of it runs on money. And they do not value life like we do.
I mean, man, they chop heads off. It's al-Qaeda stuff.
I mean, they're sawing heads off. You find a van full of eight heads.

Speaker 1 We weren't kidnapping extortions down there all the time back then.

Speaker 1 One of the cases, OZL,

Speaker 1 we thought it was a wives tale.

Speaker 1 And this is sick. So I apologize to people that think this is way gross, but it's real.

Speaker 1 The first one isn't that gross. He had a line.
He would feed people to.

Speaker 1 A line. And that was the rumor.
And then I can't remember if they went up in a fixed wing or a helicopter, but they flew over the line.

Speaker 1 And somebody was asking the other one, hey, what are all those bones? And they were like, oh, yo, Pollyo, you know, chicken.

Speaker 1 That's a big-ass chicken.

Speaker 1 That chicken. Looks like a femur, you know? So there's that.

Speaker 1 But the one that was really sick is, so when they would kidnap you, like if you lost a load or they thought you stole something or you didn't pay your quotas, because even as

Speaker 1 an undocumented special interest alien, whatever you want to call it, illegal alien smuggler,

Speaker 1 you had to pay quotas to the cartel to smuggle through their territory. Same thing with dope.
If you got behind on that, they kidnap you. Same M.O.

Speaker 1 Three suburbans pull up somewhere in South Texas, jump out on such and such corner. Everybody's in black BDUs.
They grab you. That was the SATIS.
They were the enforcement cartel.

Speaker 1 They'd take you over, beat you, start calling the family saying, we want $100,000, $300,000, whatever.

Speaker 1 We'd start brokering the deal because we have border liaison officers and we would do cross trainings with military and police in Mexico.

Speaker 1 So the border liaison officer calls and goes, hey, it's such and such time of day on this corner. Three suburbans pulled up.
The guy's name is this. It was this time.

Speaker 1 Okay, 30 minutes, 40, 30 minutes to an hour later, we get a call back. They got him.
What's the deal?

Speaker 1 He brought a load back and it was missing 100 grand.

Speaker 1 Okay, so now I'm in the house with the family going, okay, they want 300 grand. Well, we don't have it.
Well, they don't have it.

Speaker 1 They want 100 grand.

Speaker 1 We don't have it. Well, what do you got? We got 60 grand.
What else they got? Remember my V8, 4x4? They got a suburban. How many miles are on it?

Speaker 1 And here we are at midnight rolling the suburban over the bridge with $60,000 to get the sun back. Wow.
So one of the, we thought was a wivest tale is that OZL had a,

Speaker 1 I don't know. I don't know what the politically correct term is these days, but a midget.
A small person? I don't know.

Speaker 1 But the rumor was back then that he had a midget who was very well endowed, and he would rape people for the cartel.

Speaker 1 You just let that soak in for a little bit. Jesus.

Speaker 1 My comedy starts coming out. I'm like, how do you get the small person? I don't know.

Speaker 1 That's his thing.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 we all thought it was BS. And then there was a Christmas Eve.

Speaker 1 We started getting calls. I was actually driving to Arizona for vacation, but I was on the phone calling sources and calling all the other agents.

Speaker 1 This guy had uh basically carjacked a car in Rio Grande City, so directly across the river is Camargo. So he gets in there, he didn't look in the back seat, there's an infant.

Speaker 1 Now the cartel is pissed at him for bringing heat, and they are beating him.

Speaker 1 And they're, I mean, it's they used to hit him with the clubs, throw kilos, bricks at him, cigarette burns, cigar burns real big, um,

Speaker 1 battery cables, stuff like that, threatening them.

Speaker 1 And we got him back. But when he came across the bridge, my peers called me and go, holy shit, Scott, it's real.
And I go, what are you talking about? He said, this dude is bawling.

Speaker 1 When the call came in and the cartel was like, okay, let this one go, the midget was in the room. That guy was crying when he came back across the bridge.
He was getting ready to get raped.

Speaker 1 Wow. Slightly sick, right? Yeah, slightly.

Speaker 1 That's a different world. Yeah.

Speaker 2 That's probably the least bad thing they can do to you.

Speaker 1 I don't know.

Speaker 1 I don't know how to look in the mirror after all that. I don't know.

Speaker 2 I mean, you get out alive, I guess.

Speaker 1 It's insane. Or do you?

Speaker 2 So

Speaker 2 other than the pedophile cases,

Speaker 2 what were the most shocking cases that you had to do?

Speaker 1 Hmm. Well, they're all a little shocking in their own way.

Speaker 2 The pedophile one's got to be the hardest one to sleep at night.

Speaker 1 Yeah. But it's good to know.
But what a good feeling to get him.

Speaker 2 Right. That's a different feeling.
That's a non-conflicted feeling when you get him. Good.

Speaker 1 Yeah. When she called me, when the assistant solicitor called me and said, hey, he pled guilty.

Speaker 1 He got 20 for, I can't remember which was for which, but he got 20 years for,

Speaker 1 I believe, the most molestation in 10 for hiring me to kill him. So, and then they had to do the state of Texas with 85%.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, it was going to be a tough ride for him. Pardon the bun.
Yeah. But,

Speaker 1 yeah, so crazy stuff, man. I mean, some of that neo-Nazi stuff was just insane.

Speaker 2 How'd you get involved in that?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 number one, I go where my skill set takes me. Number two, we kind of go to what the shift is in the FBI.
Were people doing a lot of biker club stuff anymore? Not at that time. I was a

Speaker 1 criminal investigator for pretty much my entire career. But towards the end

Speaker 1 in Tennessee, I switched over to the Joint Tourism Task Force. And I really did it because it was just, I was having some disagreements.

Speaker 1 Some would be lightly, but I was having disagreements with management. And my M.O.

Speaker 1 had always been, even though I'd burned myself out before, once I got to Tennessee, I set up accountability buddies, I set up tripwires, and stopped saying yes to everything and made ways to relax and balance and get myself back.

Speaker 1 But towards the end,

Speaker 1 I switched over to the Joint Children's Task Force because again, my MO was try to be above average on your squad.

Speaker 1 And then if you're kicking butt on stats and stuff like that, then

Speaker 1 maybe they won't say no to let me go do the undercover. Maybe they won't say no to let me go help put on this SWAT school or this SWAT callout.
And that was what I did.

Speaker 1 But that wasn't working for me in Tennessee anymore. And I went to the head of the division and requested to be moved.

Speaker 1 So I went to Joint Terrorism Task Force, and my skill set kind of led right into that domestic terrorism stuff because it was like in the state of Tennessee, you have Aryan Nations, which was the Tennessee

Speaker 1 Department of Corrections, TDOC, prison gang, but it's white supremacy. So as a case agent, I started working that stuff.

Speaker 1 And then I just started getting more exposed to those kind of cases. So now when the canvases start coming up, or we're running an undercover op ourselves,

Speaker 1 those cases are coming in. And it's like, okay, I'll do that one unless anybody's got a disagreement, you know, and that's what I started doing.

Speaker 1 That's how we kind of got into those because we started getting more threats. You know, after the Charlottesville stuff, now it's really getting kind of on the radar.

Speaker 1 They're like, man, this is, maybe we should be putting more

Speaker 1 resources. Maybe we should be putting, the FBI is saying, maybe we should be putting more resources to this domestic terrorism threat.
And that's what I started getting. I mean, I would go into,

Speaker 1 I kind of mentioned it earlier, but

Speaker 1 a neo-Nazi group,

Speaker 1 but it's mainly online. And here I am for five months reading post after post.

Speaker 1 And if I woke up after six hours of sleep and I was 1,500 posts behind, I'd rewind it and read them all for five months because I didn't want to miss anything.

Speaker 1 Me personally, I didn't want to miss anything or anything bad happen because I missed something. But after five months and maybe meeting them once or twice,

Speaker 1 it's all First Amendment protected.

Speaker 1 They weren't doing anything to prepare for the violence, to cause violence. They're just preparing for the day.
And then when the day happens, then they'll be ready.

Speaker 1 But again, I talk to people overseas, Canada, whatever. I have to explain.
I'm like, look, in the United States, we have a Constitution. And your First Amendment

Speaker 1 is freedom of speech. I said, you can walk out in the street right here and say, I hate every, say a racial slur.
I hope every racial slur dies. That's not illegal.
As you know, you've seen it.

Speaker 1 You can burn American flags. Freedom of speech.
Try that in China. Right.
Let me know how that works for you. Death to China.
Light the flag on fire. I'm not sure how long you'll last, right?

Speaker 1 Not long. But

Speaker 1 that's what we, that's...

Speaker 1 That's the hard thing about working domestic terrorism is there's no federal domestic terrorism statute.

Speaker 1 So you're trying to see what crimes are they committing, if any, and what can we do to get them off the street if they're planning bad things.

Speaker 2 So how did you infiltrate the neo-Nazi organization? Did you actually meet with them in person or was it mostly online?

Speaker 1 So I'll just jump to the base

Speaker 1 because the base was the one that's kind of the beginning and the end of the book. They were actively recruiting.
I mean, I was in the Klan too for a little while for the job.

Speaker 1 I got to be careful if I say it, right?

Speaker 1 People clan. I know, right?

Speaker 1 Back when I was in the Klan,

Speaker 1 we were good old boys.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 they were recruiting openly online, the base was. And the base is an accelerationist group.
And that's what I, again, great detail in the book, in the podcast.

Speaker 1 But the thing is, is Most people here, white supremacy, they think of hoods and robes and crosses on fire, right? That's not this, man. These are

Speaker 1 these are, this is why they're called accelerationists. There's a book out there called Siege written by James Mason, longtime white supremacist.
It's a weird book.

Speaker 1 It's basically articles and interviews all just shoved together. But this guy kind of idolized and interviewed people like Charles Manson.
You know, what a great role model.

Speaker 1 I mean, if you're looking,

Speaker 1 but

Speaker 1 he created a group called Adam Waffen. And this is what accelerationism is.
Because when I go to infiltrate the base, I'm just answering stuff they're putting out there.

Speaker 1 Emails, they're posting on Gab,

Speaker 1 save your race, join the base. We're a survivalist group.

Speaker 1 Email is at thebase underscore one at protonmail.com. So I start answering that stuff.
After about a week or so of emails back and forth asking me everything, my ethnicity, my height, weight,

Speaker 1 when was my red pill moment, which they kind of use the matrix theme there. So if they say, when were you red-pilled?

Speaker 1 As a Christ follower, that's the same thing as when I was baptized or when I got saved, right? So if you're an accelerationist or that level of neo-Nazi and they say, what was your red pill moment?

Speaker 1 You need to know it because it's kind of like the big deal. That's when you said,

Speaker 1 hate all of the people.

Speaker 1 So after about a

Speaker 1 week or so of emails, I get on, they tell me to download the WIRE app, similar to WhatsApp. You can call and talk on it and stuff like that and create groups all over it.

Speaker 1 So I do like about an hour and 15-minute interview panel of like four or five people asking me all kinds of stuff.

Speaker 1 I answered the best I could, best I prepared for, and then they gave me a 24-hour rest period because they said, now that you know what we are, we're going to give you 24 hours to think about if you want to be a part of us, and we want 24 hours to think about it.

Speaker 1 But this is what they told me accelerationism was.

Speaker 1 They said,

Speaker 1 accelerationists, they call it siege culture, kind of far laying off the book, book, but they do not believe there's a political solution to save the white race.

Speaker 1 They believe that society is either going to collapse on its own or from man-made events, and they want to speed that up. The group I was in was calling that Boogaloo, the Boogaloo.

Speaker 1 And everything always ends with an ethnostate.

Speaker 1 Now, it's not saying the groups that I was in, they weren't going to take over the entire United States, but the group I was in, One section was looking at property and land in the Appalachian Mountains.

Speaker 1 One section of the base was looking at the upper peninsula of Michigan. One section of the base had property in the Pacific Northwest.
So

Speaker 1 you get in there, you start learning that ideology. But again, in the beginning, I'm just ingratiating.
I don't, I mean, we know they've been saying crazy stuff online, but is it illegal per se? No.

Speaker 1 But are they planning on taking steps to do some bad things? And that goes back to that domestic terrorism culture. You go in Telegram or whatever.
I mean, you've got your

Speaker 1 Terrence and your Brevix, and they're in there, 4chan, 8-chan, and they're posting right before they go and commit all the murders. You know, here I am.
I'm going live. Watch this.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 So,

Speaker 1 but imagine being in law enforcement and trying to look at all these thousands of posts and trying to figure out, well, which one's actually going to follow through?

Speaker 1 Which one is seriously planning on doing something? So you always got to stay vigilant and keep going after it.

Speaker 2 So what were these guys planning on doing? What was their accelerate moment?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 1 per the siege culture, they like to do like guerrilla warfare tactics.

Speaker 1 So they're against the Charlottesville stuff. Being in a group, picket signs, screaming racial slurs, you know, all this stuff.
They're against that. They're like, that's stupid.

Speaker 1 You're, number one, you're making yourself a target. You're not doing anything.
It's more guerrilla warfare tactics where,

Speaker 1 let's say, over here in Austin, power grid goes down. Over here, train gets derailed.
Over here, water systems poisoned. Anything to create chaos and killing of anybody left.

Speaker 1 Anti-fash,

Speaker 1 non-whites, very anti-Semitic. Very, like way more than

Speaker 1 it kind of opened my eyes when I started getting into some of these neo-Nazis because for the most part, I thought when I thought racism, I thought white against black, right?

Speaker 1 But these neo-Nazis groups I was in, man,

Speaker 1 they are anti-Semitic, man. They cannot stand Jews.
Wow. It's like it's sickening if you listen to it.
But again, they want that Hitler. They want Hitler back.

Speaker 1 I mean, some of these guys were like talking about

Speaker 1 Concave Earth, Hollow Earth. Hitler's still alive.
He's in Hollow Earth.

Speaker 1 He's with giant white men who are Anglo-white with red hair and 15-plus foot tall. And I'm like, and I go,

Speaker 1 so where are these 15-foot-tall white guys?

Speaker 1 And they're like, well, they're in the middle earth with Hitler. They're waiting.
And I go, For what? If we're going to have NDA contracts,

Speaker 1 come on, let's do this. Let's take this thing down.
And sometimes I'm just comical with them. You're like, Hey, we're near Nazis.
Yeah, we're going to get to ethnostate.

Speaker 1 Yeah, we're ready for the Boogaloo. Yeah, we're building our kit.
Yeah, who's going to be Hitler?

Speaker 1 And everybody goes,

Speaker 1 There's going to be one, buddy.

Speaker 1 Are we going to fight it out right now? Who's going to win this thing? But what happened with the base is a lot of them

Speaker 1 were into the pagan.

Speaker 1 And I I say this loosely. I have plenty of friends that are pagan.

Speaker 1 Satru,

Speaker 1 and they are great people.

Speaker 2 Love them. What do you mean by pagan?

Speaker 1 So there's different pantheons, but the most common one is Norse, North Miss Norse mythology.

Speaker 1 Basically the, you know, it's basically the Marvel universe.

Speaker 2 So they worship ancient pagan culture?

Speaker 1 Yeah, Odin, Thor, whatever. Really? Yeah, oh, yeah, man.

Speaker 1 There's a church for that?

Speaker 1 Well, I don't want to say a church per se, but yeah, they'll hold blot. A blot is just think Viking kind of stuff.
The ones that do it that are serious,

Speaker 1 they're upset that white supremacists have taken their stuff and used it. But if you look at Hitler, Hitler was already looking into that Norse mythology too.

Speaker 1 He had, you know, he had looking for Thor's hammer or whatever, the holy grail biblical and all this stuff.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 there's Christian identity, which is making a comeback in the white supremacy realm, not to be confused with Christianity. Christian identity is, if you can wrap your mind around this,

Speaker 1 a lot of them have a, it's the dual seed line belief. So they take the story of the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve, the serpent, and the fruit of the forbidden tree.

Speaker 1 They take that story and they say, okay, it's still the same, except

Speaker 1 the fruit of the forbidden tree is a sexual act with the serpent, who is a man of color, also known as Satan.

Speaker 1 And then when Satan sleeps with Eve, their offspring is Cain, and they are the mud race from then on. That's what they call them.
It's non-white. Mud race from then on down.

Speaker 1 But the procreation from Adam and Eve is Abel, and that's the pure white race. That's just one of the many belief systems.

Speaker 1 So when you see, I know, right?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I'm like shaking my head, like, what the fuck?

Speaker 1 How did you get that?

Speaker 1 What are they using as like references like how do they get this information uh so as far back as that i know i'm sure it came out earlier but there was the area nation uh reverend butler red ray fair and all that stuff and they taught that they taught the christian identity church of jesus christ christian um and they take that and twist it you know as if jesus is just a white guy and so did you physically meet with these guys and infiltrate their organization?

Speaker 1 Yeah, some of those, yes.

Speaker 1 And the Christian identity was kind of in the Klan belief that I was in for a short moment.

Speaker 1 But the pagan, just like I said, that the Christian identity takes the Bible and twists it, then the paganism is taking Norse mythology or if you're an Egyptian pantheon or whatever, and they're twisting it towards their white supremacy.

Speaker 1 And that's not what paganism really is. If you know...

Speaker 1 Like, again, I've got friends that do it. They're upset with white supremacists using their stuff.

Speaker 1 But then again, in the base, there was a guy who was an Asatru priest, and he led the first blood I ever attended, B-L-O-T, which is kind of like the worship ceremony for pagans.

Speaker 1 I mean, we're down there with our shirts off, wiping blood on our chest, drinking mead, as if we're Vikings, and then praying to our gods.

Speaker 1 And they would take wood, carved wood, and they would carve runes and like white supremacy symbols in it.

Speaker 1 And we would cut ourselves and bleed on the runes and then set that on fire and pray until the fire went out.

Speaker 1 Whoa. Yeah.
And that was kind of.

Speaker 2 How many of these guys are out there in the world?

Speaker 1 I don't know. I mean,

Speaker 1 there's academia and stuff.

Speaker 1 They're like, there's millions of white supremacists, and Nazis are going to be on your doorstep tomorrow. I'm not going to say that.

Speaker 2 Well, they want to call everything white supremacy, which is a real problem because there's actual white supremacy out there. Yeah.
And when you call everything white supremacist.

Speaker 1 Just somebody disagreeing or having a different beliefs.

Speaker 2 Watching a video of a fucking crazy professor who was saying that marriage is white supremacist.

Speaker 2 It's the craziest video of all time. This is an undercover video where

Speaker 2 they interviewed this lady and they were asking her questions and she didn't know she was being recorded. She was a professor.
Yeah. Like marriage is thin privilege.
It's white supremacy. It's

Speaker 2 male privilege, which leads to white supremacy and white privilege and like just a bunch of gobbly gook nonsense words that she was attaching to just people getting married.

Speaker 1 Clearly she's not a Christ follower.

Speaker 1 If you follow the Bible, it lays out what marriage is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, well, she's definitely not. She's a kook.
But it's the problem is calling everything white supremacy, it kind of

Speaker 2 obscures the fact that there's really people like the people that you're running into.

Speaker 1 They're real. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's just like, how many of them and where are they?

Speaker 1 I don't know. Thousands? Hundreds of thousands? Yeah, I'd say, I don't know about hundreds of thousands, but I'd say thousands.
Thousands.

Speaker 1 Because a lot of times, if you're in that community and you're looking, let's say this is a Telegram channel over here, and it's Terror Wave or whatever it is before it was taken down.

Speaker 1 And you see all these monikers, like I was Pell Horse in the base. I was Pell Horse.
That was my moniker.

Speaker 1 And then you see Pestilence and you see TMB, the Militant Buddhist, and you see Helter Skelter. And you say, well, you might go to another group.

Speaker 1 Maybe they've changed their moniker, but you start realizing, hey, did you used to be Pestilence in another channel? Yeah, that's me. All right.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 1 what's

Speaker 1 is like in that base case,

Speaker 1 as I said before, I'm a tactical instructor, firearms instructor. I'm an alert instructor, which is right near where we're at right now in San Marcos, Texas.

Speaker 1 But you can't go undercover and help these

Speaker 1 help these guys train or help them get better.

Speaker 1 Because they might be doing bad things. So I go in, I had my whole backstory, former skinhead, former biker, and my skill set was like hand-to-hand combat.

Speaker 1 Could I shoot? Yeah, but I let them lead me. We went out there and the first time we did tactical and firearms training, it was led by a 19-year-old kid and it was good.

Speaker 1 It was good. And he's not military.
And I'm like, I'm watching. I'm like, where the hell did you learn this? So a lot of stuff happens on gaming systems because they're so realistic now.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, these kids, you can go on and if you got your mic on, you might get your butt handed to you you by an 11-year-old kid who's telling you to clear the hard corner and slice the pie.

Speaker 1 They're using the same verbiage. And I'm like, holy crap.
You know, virtual world meets real world.

Speaker 1 Only problem is in the virtual world, you get to respawn.

Speaker 1 Not so much in the real world, you know. I'm going to respawn now.

Speaker 1 But yeah, he let it and they were shooting fast and accurate. It wasn't the best.
They were mistakes.

Speaker 1 But I was impressed with how safe they were, the two guys running it, TMB and Pestilence, because that was a concern for me.

Speaker 1 Like, if you could see the aerial footage, like when we first go out there and they're shooting, I'm way back behind them because I'm like, I don't know how these people are guns.

Speaker 1 I've seen plenty of bad shooters doing some stupid things on the line.

Speaker 1 And then we start working like that. So I start gaining their trust, do a couple of blots,

Speaker 1 hikes, drinking, rucking, whatever.

Speaker 1 And then it starts,

Speaker 1 we're finding out a little bit more, not

Speaker 1 necessarily anything criminal, except for the fact that there was a Canadian who was part of their, basically,

Speaker 1 it would be like their National Guard,

Speaker 1 but he got doxed. And for the listeners that don't know, doxing basically is being outed.
So a lot of these accelerationist groups are big on putting up flyers and stickers.

Speaker 1 They go by and they slap up stickers everywhere, you know, join the, save your race, join the base with a QR code. You scan that QR code, it takes you right to bit shoot to a video of us, of a

Speaker 1 propaganda recruitment video we filmed in Georgia. Wow.
Of us shooting and everything.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 so there's one in Canada. He puts up flyers.
Somebody answers it to make, again, it's more in-depth in the book, but he meets this guy.

Speaker 1 The guy does the same panel kind of thing I did, but then he gets vetted face-to-face. So when you get vetted face-to-face, it's going to be a little bit more intense.

Speaker 1 They do a face-to-face vetting of this this guy

Speaker 1 and he says

Speaker 1 the

Speaker 1 Punished Snake was the moniker. His name is Patrick Matthews.
He was up there and he vetted him face-to-face and said he's good to go.

Speaker 1 So after about a week to two weeks tops in the main chat group, this dude bails.

Speaker 1 And it turns out that he was a journalist in Canada who went on his own and met Patrick Matthews and infiltrated, at least to a certain degree, the base.

Speaker 1 And then he puts out in a big news article up there that this guy is Patrick Matthews. And so Pat

Speaker 1 RRCMP comes to his house, takes his guns. He gets booted from the National Guard thing, loses his job.
His parents don't like him anymore. And they lose him.

Speaker 1 They find his truck near the border of the United States. So we're all looking for him.

Speaker 1 And you have to realize that on the base case, let's just say you've got 40 targets. Well, they're all over the world, a lot of them in the United States.

Speaker 1 Well, every one of those FBI field offices are open separate cases, but we're all trying to work together because it's the same group. And

Speaker 1 we get to a point to where, I'm sorry, we were looking for

Speaker 1 Patrick Matthews, and there's an unbelievable case agent.

Speaker 1 We had several on the case, but Nate Plue was running the case

Speaker 1 out of Seattle because the leader of the base had property in Seattle's territory. But there was a case agent named Rashid who's out of Baltimore and he's running for the guys there.

Speaker 1 Rashid was able to figure out by some unbelievable phone analysis

Speaker 1 when

Speaker 1 Patrick came into the United States and we're tracking. We're all looking for him.
We think we might know where he's at and I show up at a training in North Georgia, in Rome, Georgia, and he's there.

Speaker 1 When I pulled up, I see vehicles, and I'm counting heads under the barn. And I'm like, there's one extra person.
I know that's that person's car. And I say, well, I'll see when I walk up.

Speaker 1 I walk up, and by then, his hair had all grown out and had a red bushy beard. And he's like, as soon as he started talking, it was a Canadian accent.

Speaker 1 And I was like, hey, man, welcome to the United States, brother. So now we had him there.
And now we're starting to find out a little bit more about death plots and this, that, and the other.

Speaker 1 But is it just drunk talk? Are they actually planning on doing something?

Speaker 1 And then that's when we get to the

Speaker 1 big Halloween of 2019 hate camp.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 there was

Speaker 1 base members that came in from all over the United States.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 again, I'd done some pagan blots with them. Like I said, cut yourself.
I remember the first time I did it,

Speaker 1 I was like, damn it, why didn't I bring my own knife? And

Speaker 1 when it was time to cut your finger, the tip of their knife was broken. And I'm like, well, I'm not going to slice my damn arm open, my tats, and I'm not going to slice my finger open.

Speaker 1 I'm trying to stab my finger to bleed with a broken tip. Note to self, bring your own knife next time.
So I did.

Speaker 1 But we're doing

Speaker 1 Halloween. We're there and I doze off.
We've already done hand-to-hand combat, some firearm stuff, had a couple of drinks, and I'm charging my phone in my truck.

Speaker 1 It's really cold, so I kind of doze off. I wake up to pounding on my window.
Pel horse, Pel horse, you got to get up. You got to see this.
You got to see this. I'm like, what's going on?

Speaker 1 And they're like, man, remember us talking about a sacrifice and the goat i'm like

Speaker 1 yeah they go we got the goat so i get out and there's this ram uh

Speaker 1 in the back of one of the members trucks they had gone not far away to a house that had three rams and they all dressed up

Speaker 1 and and i'll paint the picture for you because uh

Speaker 1 the clothing,

Speaker 1 the camouflage pattern that the base wore was fleck tarn because fleck fleck tarn pattern is German.

Speaker 1 Again, Howl Hitler kind of stuff. So they went, wear balaclavas cover everything up, they hop fences, steal this ram, and bring it back to the farm in Rome, Georgia.

Speaker 1 So I wake up and I walk out there, and this thing's crapping all over the bed of the truck. And one of the members, pretty big fella, he says, man, this thing's shitting everywhere.

Speaker 1 And I said, well, hell, I would be too if I just got kidnapped by a bunch of dudes and fleck tarn and balaclavas, you know.

Speaker 1 So now now we're kind of preparing and I'm thinking, man, are we really going to do this? And I walked over to the guy,

Speaker 1 he went by Aizen and he was going to be leading the block. And Aizen says, I go over to him and I go, man,

Speaker 1 is it bad that I feel sorry for the goat? And he says, you can't let the goat hear you say that.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, okay, dude, tell. And he's like,

Speaker 1 he goes, this is a sacrifice to Odin.

Speaker 1 This is a beautiful sacrifice. We love this ram.
We love this goat, whatever the hell it was.

Speaker 1 We love it, and we're showing it love, and it is being blessed to go to Valhalla and meet Odin.

Speaker 1 So the rule was,

Speaker 1 everybody leave your weapons, and we're going to go down to the holy spot and deep in the woods. 100-acre farm, by the way.

Speaker 1 And we're walking down there, and the goat's just making all kinds of racket. And we get down.
I'm sorry. I should have, let me rewind this a little bit.
I'm trying to figure out in my head:

Speaker 1 should I do this or should I just blow the case right now? And I'm thinking, well, they said they took the goat. Okay, so that's theft of an animal.
That's not federal.

Speaker 1 I'm like trying to go through my head. So I go to my truck and I lean into one of my devices and I'm like, hey, if y'all can hear me, because when I was out in the field, I'm covered.

Speaker 1 So for that four-day hate camp, they were covering me 24-7, running shifts,

Speaker 1 they being law enforcement.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 I go and I go, Hey, if y'all can hear me, I'm pretty sure we're getting ready to go down here and sacrifice this animal.

Speaker 1 And I'm running it through my brain, and I know they said they stole it, but I can't come up with a good enough reason to stop this right now.

Speaker 1 If you guys don't want me to do this, you got to send me a sign and let me know. And I waited, and I waited, and it was crickets.
And then I said,

Speaker 1 Okay, I guess I'm going down to the woods. woods so we go down

Speaker 1 you had your chance

Speaker 1 I was waiting oh my god so we go down to the woods and

Speaker 1 we get there and I don't know how I ended up at the back of the goat we're in a circle around the goat and I'm at the back of it and Aizen who's leading the blot is talking about we're going to be starting the wild hunt.

Speaker 1 In Norse mythology, the wild hunt is basically Odin and a bunch of other gods going out in the middle of the night and whipping the crap out of every other god that they didn't like or whatever.

Speaker 1 In the twisted version of the bass,

Speaker 1 starting the wild hunt was going to start with the sacrifice of this goat, which he named Gar.

Speaker 1 His middle name was Garfield, named after his grandfather. To show love to the goat, he named it Gar after his grandfather.

Speaker 1 Okay.

Speaker 1 So he says once we commit, do we do the sacrifice and it goes to Valhalla,

Speaker 1 that the wild hunt will start, but the wild hunt was going to be cleansing the world of non-whites.

Speaker 2 So the goat was the start of this whole

Speaker 1 wild hunt. The wild hunt.
It's in North Missouri.

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Speaker 1 So he's got this machete type object, and I'm at the back of the goat, and he's going through it.

Speaker 1 He says this Odin prayer, and he didn't lead the block near as good as the actual Asatri priest that did it before, but he's trying.

Speaker 1 And he's going back with this.

Speaker 1 He's going back with this machete. And I'm holding the back of the goat, and somebody's holding the front of the goat.
He's coming down, he's practicing,

Speaker 1 practicing. And he's a pretty stocky kid.

Speaker 1 And finally, somebody says just do it man he rears back with all of his strength and comes down whack right on the back of the neck of the goat i don't even know if it broke a hair joe i don't know if it's because the back strap of the goat was so thick or the blade was dull but when he hit it all you heard was bah

Speaker 1 and i and for that split second i'm holding the back of the goat and i go oh man i just saw blood i just pictured something bad happening And then somebody says, has anybody got a gun? Do you hear?

Speaker 1 Do it again. Do it again.
And I take two swings. And he hears, anybody got a gun? Well, I told you, we weren't supposed to bring any weapons down.

Speaker 1 Well, this one cat, who was probably the least qualified person to be carrying a firearm anywhere within miles of us, said, yeah, I got mine. And we were like, what are you doing with your gun?

Speaker 1 So TMB takes the gun, hands it to Aizen. Aizen, we're still all on our knees in a circle around the goat for this sacrifice.

Speaker 1 Aizen points the gun at the goat, goat's head, and then turns the opposite way. Oh, Jesus.
And that's when the instructor enemy comes out. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 1 He's like, what? I go, look at what you're shooting at, man. We're all in a circle.
The hell are you doing?

Speaker 1 So then he chambers around and gets up close. Pow.
Even on the recording, you can hear the goat hit the ground.

Speaker 1 Well, sitting there twitching. It's been like two, three minutes.
It's still twitching. And I'm like, hey.
Why don't you go put another bullet in the ram?

Speaker 1 He's like, I think it's dead. And I go, I'm just saying, for the love of the goat and

Speaker 1 it being happy and Valhalla, let's give it a good clean kill.

Speaker 2 I'm trying to use this logic against you.

Speaker 1 And he puts another one in it, and somebody says, yeah, it's definitely dead. So you think it's over.
No, it's not over. Now they slice the goat's throat and fill a cup with all of its blood.

Speaker 1 And one of the guys had brought a sheet of acid. Aizen had brought a sheet of acid.
Oh,

Speaker 1 yeah, right? It's supposed to help with the shaman, which is kind of entering the spirit world during your block.

Speaker 1 You're gonna get high. And uh, I'm shining the light because it's pitch dark, we're in the middle of the woods, and I'm shining the light for Aizen.
He's going around, and what's happening is

Speaker 1 he's tearing off a tab. Not everybody did it, of course.
I didn't do it, but he tears off a tab, puts it under a tongue.

Speaker 1 Some people never even done it before, and then you chase it down with the blood of the goat part of the sacrifice. So he gets around.
Some people do it, most people do it, a couple of us didn't.

Speaker 1 And then

Speaker 1 it gets to me and I'm looking at the cup full of blood and by this time it's coagulating. It's all clotty.

Speaker 1 And I'm looking at it and I'm like, oh man, I do not want to turn that up. I really don't want to turn it up.
And I think it was pestilence that gave me an out. He said, man, you can just...
taste it.

Speaker 1 So I stuck my finger all the way down in the blood, pulled it out, sucked all the blood off my finger. And that was my way of dealing with the sacrifice.
not exactly fear factor stuff

Speaker 1 but i would have sucked i would have been good on that show except for the gross stuff but yeah but disgusting so over the next

Speaker 1 actually the next day of training was completely obliterated because everybody

Speaker 1 90 of the members were all still high been up all night on acid so we couldn't train the next day and i was pissed i told him i go this is a wasted freaking day I said, you sons, you know, I was giving him a hard time.

Speaker 1 And then by Saturday, we were back training again. And then by Sunday night, I'm sorry, Friday, we were training again.

Speaker 1 And by Saturday night, we did a bunch more training through the day, like, you know, navigating the land,

Speaker 1 living off the land, building bunkers and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 And then it's time to shoot some more for the propaganda video. So we go back down in the woods.
And at this, now we're doing a bonfire at the holy spot.

Speaker 1 And we are burning American flags, and we're burning holy Bibles

Speaker 1 while everybody's yelling, F your Jewish God,

Speaker 1 death to America, stuff like that. And I remember the one kid that was pretty clumsy, he almost fell in the fire trying to light the flag on fire.
And in the video, you can see me grab the other side.

Speaker 1 Part of me wanted to just let him fall.

Speaker 1 Just see him go, I don't know if he went up in flames or not, but a little Darwinism. But I hold the flag.
We burn the American flag. We're screaming all that.
And

Speaker 1 they take holy Bibles and this is on the video. They lay them face down in the fire.
And I watch the fire go up.

Speaker 1 It's coming back down. We've been there a minute.
Hell yeah, high-fiving, white power, all this stuff. And it's coming back down.
And if you've ever seen like

Speaker 1 a book. in a fire, all those pages, they get that,

Speaker 1 it looks a certain way, kind of ashy.

Speaker 1 Well, the one guy, the canadian guy he he he can't not screw with the fire he's over there he's probably still got asthma in his system who knows he's still poking the fire like oh

Speaker 1 so he's stoking it back up well while he's trying to stoke it back up he flips something over a bible opens face up and there's nothing burnt on it at all

Speaker 1 like the outside's charred but there's not a single page burnt

Speaker 1 and i'm like Okay,

Speaker 1 that's different. So he's trying to get it started.
He starts tearing page by page, gets it on fire. Bonfire goes back up.

Speaker 1 We're all doing our thing. Bonfire comes back down.
He's poking the coals again. I'll be damned if another Bible doesn't flip open completely unburned.
And I watched them put it on that face first.

Speaker 1 Now, I know some people with science and they're like, well, in a lot of Bibles, the page is made out of clay and they don't burn. Listen, I watched a flag burn.
I watched all that stuff burn.

Speaker 1 And I actually have a picture that if you blow it up, I didn't realize it. I was just taking pictures like everybody else was taking pictures.

Speaker 1 But I was in my hotel room one night just going through my pictures and I blew it up and you can clearly see a holy Bible in the flames. So I'm a believer.

Speaker 1 My faith is huge throughout the book. I would not have been able to do any of it, in my opinion.

Speaker 1 But I remember when that second Bible flipped open,

Speaker 1 one of the base members goes, he goes, man, these effing Bibles just won't burn. And I remember I did it very nonchalantly, maybe only in my head, but I did a little Sammy Sosa, you know, to the sky.

Speaker 1 You know, I'm like, yeah, you get them, Lord. Yeah.
I'm like, yeah, that's funny. By the way, if you want to blow everybody up, y'all just let Scotty know, and I'll be real still right now.

Speaker 1 But, yeah, so after that week, I kind of said,

Speaker 1 I got a pretty dumb sense of humor, but I got back to the office and I said, man,

Speaker 1 I've been doing undercover work off and on since 1996. And I said, I know my skill set takes me to different places than other people.
I said, but I have never

Speaker 1 had to burn Bibles, Bibles, burn an American flag, and I damn sure it wasn't with a group of people that went out and stole a goat and sacrificed it at a pagan ritual and drank his blood.

Speaker 1 I said, I've done that in three days with these guys.

Speaker 1 And I mean, I felt weird. I felt weird when I got back.
I just, you know,

Speaker 1 I even texted my pastor. I'm like, I need you to say a prayer.

Speaker 1 I just felt, I don't know, dirty, something.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I felt weird, you know.

Speaker 2 It's just weird that guys like that exist and organize and find other guys like that and get together.

Speaker 1 It's online. It's this phone.
I don't know. Listen, a lot of these kids were young.

Speaker 1 I say kids because

Speaker 1 it was the first alias I ever did where I made myself younger. My whole FBI career, I was always two years older.
It was just easy to remember.

Speaker 1 I mean, I turned 40 with the Outlaws. So when I turned 40 two years later in real life and I'm in wherever I was at, my calendar or Tennessee, I'm like.

Speaker 1 Yeah, my other party was a little better. I'm not going to lie.

Speaker 1 I'm like, you know, the Outlaws party was, I mean, thank you guys for telling me to party, but that's not really nothing compared to what I turned 42 years ago.

Speaker 1 But for the base, I had to hustle and get in there fast because we were getting calls from world working partners. Because,

Speaker 1 again, this is online. You hop in those groups.
There's people from South Africa, Australia, UK, Norway, you name it. And they're all because it's online.

Speaker 1 Now, they may not be able to get weapons like we got weapons, but they were even planning on flying into the States and doing some hate crime. I mean, hate crime.

Speaker 1 Well, I'm sure we'd be doing hate crimes, but a hate camp.

Speaker 1 But they dive in. And what I saw a lot of is

Speaker 1 younger, younger guys,

Speaker 1 outcasts,

Speaker 1 don't have a job, can't get a partner, you know, and

Speaker 1 they just dive down this rabbit hole of hate. They've probably been bullied

Speaker 1 and they dive down this rabbit hole of hate. And it's always, it seems like it goes back to like gangs and cults and stuff like that.

Speaker 1 They're trying, it's that need to belong and they want to bring you in and that's how they get you.

Speaker 1 And then power and then

Speaker 1 being inclusive,

Speaker 1 having people with your own like mind. But that's not just on the white supremacy side.
Same thing's happening on the Islamic, radical Islamist side.

Speaker 1 They're radicalizing you online. inundating you with videos.
You could go into Gab. I don't even know if Gab's still around, but you could go into Gab and there would be a group called 14 Words.

Speaker 1 Well, that's the 14 words coined by David Lane. It is famous in the white supremacy culture.
It says something to the, if I don't have it memorized anymore.

Speaker 1 As I say, a lot of times when I'm speaking, I go, hey, just so you guys know, I appreciate the questions.

Speaker 1 But since I retired, I made a conscious decision not to hang out with white supremacists anymore.

Speaker 1 Probably a good decision. I mean, I'm just saying.
I mean, I appreciate you asking me.

Speaker 2 Were they the wackiest people that you were around?

Speaker 1 It's going to be close.

Speaker 2 Well, obviously the pedophiles are the most disposable.

Speaker 1 Well, yeah, but it's going to be close. But

Speaker 1 the,

Speaker 1 I don't want to say I'm not easily shocked. It's just that, I mean, you see so much stuff.

Speaker 1 It's like, again, it's that proverbial

Speaker 1 coroner who shows up eating a sandwich with brains are everywhere because they've seen them. They got to eat.
You know, they're just used to it.

Speaker 1 So there's definitely been some wacky things. I mean, on the case agent side, that stuff on the border was pretty wacky.
But undercover-wise,

Speaker 1 these guys, I mean, they were,

Speaker 1 I don't know about calling them wacky, but just they were planting it. I mean, what we did is we uncovered violent we uncovered several murder plots.

Speaker 1 They had found a couple that they believe were an uh Antifa couple, a couple of counties over in Georgia, and we went and cased the place. The idea was it started,

Speaker 1 it took it it took a while to come to fruition because it changed a couple of times. But essentially, what was agreed upon is that we were all going to beat the Georgia sale.

Speaker 1 When I say sale, it's C-E-L-L, which, by the way, is probably a good time to say the base

Speaker 1 in Arabic is Al-Qaeda. Ah, wow.
So Al-Qaeda wanted to have three to five-man sales, C-E-L-L, I know I got a redneck accent,

Speaker 1 sales all over the world waiting on that D-Day call. Well, the base.
which stands for Al-Qaeda, wanted three to five-man sales all over the world waiting for the Boogaloo. Wow.
You've got kids,

Speaker 1 21-year-old has no car,

Speaker 1 has no job, but has an arsenal in his closet. He's wearing plate carriers, they're the same plate carriers that FBI SWAT team wears.
It's not cheap stuff.

Speaker 1 And however they're getting their money, either from parents or whatever they're doing, they are building their kit for what they refer to as the day, the setoff of the race war.

Speaker 1 So we uncovered those murder plots.

Speaker 1 I remember Helter Skelter, we got to postpone it because once we figured out they were trying to kill people, man, we got to slow this thing down and make sure we've got control of it.

Speaker 1 Much like a murder for hire. If you're hiring me to kill somebody, I want to make sure that I got the contract so you're not out trying to find somebody else to kill this person.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 we were riding out there and

Speaker 1 Helter had not seen the house yet. And Helter, I'll tell you the plan in a second.
Helter, we were riding out there and Helter goes, hey,

Speaker 1 if you don't mind, man, I'd really like to pop pop my cherry on this one. Well, you and I here pop my cherry.
It probably means something different because I was like, what are you talking about?

Speaker 1 And then Luke, TMB, told me, he goes, I think he actually wants to participate in the killing. And he said, man, I've been waiting for this for two years.

Speaker 1 He goes, I actually want to be, I want to put one of the bullets in their head. And I said, well, it's a 22, 25, whatever with the silencer on it.
It may take more than one. Shouldn't be a big deal.

Speaker 1 But the idea was, and this is how much, this is how much research was done.

Speaker 1 We're going to go to a campsite. We're going to leave everything electronic there.
We're going to leave from there.

Speaker 1 We're going to have a car that doesn't come back to anybody, rental car, whatever, fake plates, whatever. We're going to go to a pay-by-the-hour hotel or a motel.
We're going to go there.

Speaker 1 We're going to scrub and scrub and wash and wash to get any flakes of skin that may be loose to come off.

Speaker 1 As detailed as Vaseline on your eyebrows. facial hair so you don't drop any kind of DNA.

Speaker 1 Tape up, kind of like WMD, we're going to tape our jacket to our gloves, our pants to our boots, so nothing can leak out.

Speaker 1 Luke had even done so much research, he had read that a lot of people who kill somebody for the first time will lose control of their Bibles. So he was suggesting we all wear depends

Speaker 1 while we go commit the murder. I didn't tell him I'd ever killed anybody, but I looked at him and said, I think I'm okay.

Speaker 1 I don't need to wear depends.

Speaker 1 So that was the thing. And then we were going to go into the house,

Speaker 1 breach our way in, murder whoever's there,

Speaker 1 because it was like, are there any kids there? Helter's like, I don't have a problem killing the commie kid. Now, Helter kind of looked like a normal guy, had a computer IT job.

Speaker 1 He said that was a great cover for him because everybody thinks he's just a normal person in society.

Speaker 1 This is a guy who also told me, he said,

Speaker 1 again, they want to accelerate the downfall. This guy told me, he said,

Speaker 1 I voted for Hillary Clinton. And I was like, I'm in here with neo-Nazis.
And it threw me off guard. I'm like,

Speaker 1 why would you do that? And he goes, think about it, bro.

Speaker 1 He said,

Speaker 1 we want to accelerate the collapse of society. He goes, if she gets in, they usually try to defund the police.
They make our military weaker. There's going to be riots.

Speaker 1 There's going to be all this stuff. And there's just going to be chaos.
It'll help speed up the downfall of society. Wow.

Speaker 1 That's what they're thinking is.

Speaker 1 So we got that murder plot going on, and then you have the Canadian guy in his cell up in, actually, it would have been Can't Go Back, which is,

Speaker 1 Brian Limley.

Speaker 1 They had a cell up in the Maryland area. And I went up and I trained with them.

Speaker 1 And they, at that point in time, so it would have been coming up to January of 2020, there was going to be a huge Second Amendment rally in Virginia because the governor at the time was pretty liberal, did not.

Speaker 1 like guns and was going to be making a lot of,

Speaker 1 was trying to crack down on guns, Second Amendment. So the idea of those base members was, what if that's the set off of the Boogaloo?

Speaker 1 What if, while all those people are there, you've got three percenters, which is not illegal, you got militia, which is not illegal, but you've got people wanting to do nefarious things, most likely.

Speaker 1 You've got cops. What if we just pop a couple of rounds, nobody knows who's shooting at who, and everybody, and maybe that's the kickoff of the Boogaloo?

Speaker 1 Again, there's not a lot of forethought and afterthought with these guys. It's like,

Speaker 1 what about the National Guard? I mean, what about Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine? What about freaking cops? You know, we'll deal with that. What about girlfriends?

Speaker 1 I ask them, I go, you know, I hear you guys talking about procreation all the time. I don't see any women.
I got a woman. She's not for share.
And they're like, oh, we'll just rape them.

Speaker 1 And I go, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
What? He goes, yeah, we're just going to rape the women. When D-Day happens and this is the booglet, yeah, we're just going to take the women and rape them.

Speaker 1 I kind of giggled and I said, you guys don't have a lot of experience with women, do you?

Speaker 1 And they're like, why? And I go, well, that stuff might work for a little while, but sooner or later, you're going to have to go to sleep. You might wake up missing some parts you went to bed with.

Speaker 1 I'm like, what are you talking about? But we uncovered all that, and we got enough evidence against them that everybody was happy. And

Speaker 1 the week of the takedown, I'm sorry. Yeah, it would have been close to the week of the takedown.
I had to postpone it. I'd had a lumbar fusion in 2002.

Speaker 1 What I didn't know, I thought it was just my disc, a bulging disc or something. What I didn't know is that fusion had broken free.
And for about 15 years, I just had nothing. I had no disc.

Speaker 1 The cadaver bone dissipated. So my back was spasming really, really bad.
Like I couldn't get out of the floor. So I took some prednisone, got off the floor with electric stem.

Speaker 1 I just had, we had to postpone it for a week. So then I went.
And on a Friday, I flew into Baltimore,

Speaker 1 met the case team, drove up Saturday to Delaware, trained all day with those guys,

Speaker 1 helped get more information that everybody wanted.

Speaker 1 Came back late to Baltimore, flew to Atlanta, drove up to try to close the deal with the Georgia crew. And I think I got home Monday for a couple of hours.
I went back.

Speaker 1 Now I'm meeting with the SWAT teams because we're planning on the takedown. And by Wednesday,

Speaker 1 I picked up Luke, who lived on the 100-acre farm. And we did a ruse where the car,

Speaker 1 like my car was messed up. I'm like, did you you hear that? Actually, more divine intervention.
I was going to fake that something was wrong with my car and my truck. We're driving.

Speaker 1 All of a sudden, someone goes, bam, like that. And I go, I didn't run over anything.
I go, did you hear that? He said, yes.

Speaker 1 I swear if that damn brake caliper froze again, I said, let me pull over. Well, I pulled over to the spot SWAT team wanted me to.
And then we did a ruse.

Speaker 1 I was around the back of the truck looking and another truck pulls up. I'm like, oh my gosh, man, I can't believe you're here.
And then I jump in that truck.

Speaker 1 And then the SWAT team and the Bearcats rolling over the hill. And they took him without incident.
Helter Skelter and Pestilence got picked up without incident.

Speaker 1 We kept all that quiet on Wednesday because come Thursday morning, SWAT teams from Washington field office and Baltimore field office were going to be hitting that crew. So we wanted to keep it quiet.

Speaker 1 So now Thursday they get arrested. Now stuff's starting to come out.
I'm still in a chat group and Friday

Speaker 1 I'm watching it and they're like, pale horse, are you there? And they're like, wait a minute. Now the affidavits are starting to come out.

Speaker 1 It says that there's a federal undercover agent that infiltrated the base. And they're like, who's the damn Fed in here? And I'm just being quiet.

Speaker 1 And somewhere around 5.15, the leader of the base, he went by the monikers Norman Spears and Roman Wolf. His real name is Ronaldo Nazaro.
So you can let this sink in.

Speaker 1 Here's an American citizen born in America, went to Villanova, was in the Army, to my understanding, Army, Intel, and he was contracted at some point for some job in the Department of Justice,

Speaker 1 now resides in St. Petersburg, Russia.
And I guess he supposedly teaches English. They tried to say the base didn't have a leader.
He's definitely the leader. Wow.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 has a Russian family. So you can do your own speculation there.
I'm not working that case anymore.

Speaker 2 How fucking crazy.

Speaker 1 Right? What was his red pill moment? Because clearly, if you look at his history, he was kind of on the liberal side. Something happened somewhere.
And then he starts spewing crazy stuff.

Speaker 1 And then the base gets infiltrated by like journalists from Vice. Well, then they tighten.
Now every time the base got infiltrated, they tightened their OPSEC more and more.

Speaker 1 Every propaganda video we did, the rule was it has to be better than the last one because we're trying to get everybody. And so I'm watching all this roll out.

Speaker 1 There's no way a fed's in here, this, that, and the other, blah, blah, blah. And then I see Roman finally respond around like five-ish on Friday.
And he's like, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 We could have found him because he was good.

Speaker 1 He attended every meeting, which I didn't. He He said he attended every meeting, which maybe that should have been a red flag, but I didn't attend every training or meeting.

Speaker 1 And I'm like, okay, he's figured out it's me. And then he said something else.
And then that was it. It says, boom, you've been removed by Roman Wolf.

Speaker 1 So I screenshotted that and I sent it to all the case teams all over the United States and the headquarters, FBI. And I said, and I'm out.
Wow. Yeah, so they went down.

Speaker 1 That was a wild case. And if you want to get into like the effects on family and stuff, at that point, I I mean, we're talking 2020.
I started in 96 at a state and local level.

Speaker 1 But my wife, we were dating when I was a NARC. So she was kind of used to, hey, I went out and picked up some hookers and got some cocaine stuff.
But

Speaker 1 clearly there were some very rough times, especially during that three-year period around the outlaws. But it's not always easy.
But what she says, because people always ask,

Speaker 1 and the spouses do not get enough credit at all. She's not law enforcement.
She's not desensitized to my world.

Speaker 1 She used to freak out and be nervous when I'd go on undercovers. And what she would do is

Speaker 1 to help her cook, she moved furniture. I'd come home and open the door and trip over stuff.
I'm like, what in the,

Speaker 1 how did the couch get,

Speaker 1 who moved that refrigerator? You know, crazy stuff. But one day, what she said is she said, look, she just had to give it up to God.

Speaker 1 She's like, I can sit here and worry every day and I'm going to kill myself worrying about it.

Speaker 1 But I essentially don't have control uh i gotta pray that you're good at what you do and uh and and you know if it's your time to go he can take me anytime he wants but finishing the base case is the first time like an idiot i should have realized it but i realized after an undercover i have to decompress i have to kind of okay all right i get my mind all right that's done okay so does she right and we were sitting out on the back porch

Speaker 1 having a having an adult beverage i might have have been smoking a cigar, but she said something to the effect of

Speaker 1 something, I was at the base and she was like, yeah, I was covering you in prayer. And I kind of giggled.
And she's like,

Speaker 1 she looks at me and I'm like, what? I mean, we've been doing this for a while, right? I mean,

Speaker 1 you don't have to like be worried about me, worried about. I mean, we've been doing this a minute.
She jerked a knot in my butt, man.

Speaker 1 She looked at me and stern and she said, let me tell you something. You are my husband, and I'm your wife.
And it's my job to cover cover you. And when you're going on these things, I'm covering you.

Speaker 1 And I stopped smiling and I said, I greatly appreciate that and I'm sorry if I insulted you, but thank you. Wow.
Craziness.

Speaker 2 What a life you've had.

Speaker 2 Well, listen, brother, thank you very much for being here. It was great talking to you.
Great hearing these stories. Fucking amazing.
So insane and so interesting.

Speaker 1 I do have a wacky one. I forgot.
Another one? Yeah, you want a wacky one? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a murder for hire, basically.
Oh.

Speaker 1 It was, uh, I got hired to do, me and another task force officer who went with me on the undercover.

Speaker 1 Essentially, they thought we were bikers, and they ended up hiring us to do four home invasions and murder two people. So, you want to talk about wacky people? This is towards the end of my career.

Speaker 1 Her name was Tammy. She gets in.
It's all in the news and the court records.

Speaker 1 We go and we meet the husband. We thought the husband was the one wanting to get us.
And we were like off a dirt road. It's pretty rough, man.

Speaker 1 Like, like walking up to the place, I'm like, hey, man, watch out. Sharp object, sharp object, tb merca

Speaker 1 epc you know um

Speaker 1 so we meet him and he's like uh oh that's really not my plan is my old lady's plan i go where's your old lady well she's asleep well you're gonna wake her up you want me to i didn't drive all the way out here to talk to you if you're not planning it i'm here to make money so we pick her up she comes out gets in the truck we start driving around looking at these locations of where they wanted it because they knew some people that were dealing dope they had dens on where the guns and the money were so they thought thought.

Speaker 1 And they wanted us to do the home invasions and kill them.

Speaker 1 But while we're riding around, she says,

Speaker 1 if you need somebody tortured, I'm really good in torture. I love torture.

Speaker 1 I'm driving. She's in the passenger seat, clawing herself.
She's weathered.

Speaker 1 Yeah, she's weathered, tweaking, probably. And

Speaker 1 this is how my mind works. So

Speaker 1 she's like, yeah, I'm into torture. She goes, you know, that you can take a hanger and bend it on the end and shove it up a man's penis and rip it back out and then pour salt in the penis.

Speaker 1 Well, now the guys in the back of the truck are going, oh my gosh. What she didn't know is two weeks prior to that, I had my second lumbar fusion, which fixed my first lumbar fusion.

Speaker 1 That wasn't the problem. They messed up my privates and they had to dry calf me.

Speaker 1 So when she's talking about this hanger going in and out, I'm kind of feeling, I'm like, I think I know what's similar to that.

Speaker 1 So she says that, and then she says, yeah, and you can take a PVC PVC pipe and you can run it up somebody's anus and then run barbed wire up it and rip it out.

Speaker 1 And we pull up to a red light and I lean over and I go, why are you so angry? And she's like, oh, no, I said, are you sure you don't want to kill these people? She's like, oh, no, I'm too well known.

Speaker 1 But if you need somebody tortured, I can do it. Then on the next ride or ride into the next place, she says that her husband went on a cocaine bender.
And she told him never to do that again.

Speaker 1 Cocaine myth something. She said cocaine, but he had been gone for three days.
She couldn't find him. He comes home after being high three, four days, and he crashes.
She's so pissed at him.

Speaker 1 She tells us the story that he's naked. She takes a two by four, shoves it under his back legs, takes an industrial stapler and staples his scrotum to the board.

Speaker 1 He didn't wake up.

Speaker 1 That's how down he was or his crash was. But when he did, he finds himself hooked to a board and he's screaming for help.
And she wouldn't help him. He had to call a friend to do it.

Speaker 1 So if you think the story's BS,

Speaker 1 if you think the story's BS,

Speaker 1 we confirmed it with a husband. He's like, Oh, yeah, yeah, she did it.
I ain't never had no woman do nothing like that to me before. And I'm like,

Speaker 1 So, my buddy in the back, he goes, Uh, you really don't like men, do you? And she's like, I've been unlucky in love. But in my head, Joe, that's when I'm looking over and I go, These are my people.

Speaker 1 This is my skill set. This is what I get.
I don't get

Speaker 1 Wall Street.

Speaker 2 Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, it's all kinds of stuff like that, man.

Speaker 2 God damn. That's a crazy life, brother.

Speaker 1 Yep. So now it's book.
I still teach alert. Tell everybody the book.
The book is code named Pail Horse

Speaker 1 and it's how I went undercover to expose America's Nazis.

Speaker 1 But it's not just white supremacy. It's got the outlaws.
It's got personal stuff, the life. There's murder for hire cases all in there.
The pedophile stories in there.

Speaker 1 Public corruption cases where, I mean, some of the targets, like I got put in a corner,

Speaker 1 I underestimated. I'm dealing with a guy who's toothless and a mountain backwoods guy, and he beat me at chess that night.
And I ended up with a bag of cocaine open, shoved in my face.

Speaker 1 He's got a sawed-off shotgun, a red bone hound's growling in my crotch. And he's like, if I find out you're the law, you're a dead man.
Do it if you're not a cop.

Speaker 1 I had to figure out a way to get out of that, you know.

Speaker 1 So there's stuff like that all in there. I bonded with that guy, too.

Speaker 1 You know?

Speaker 2 That's part of your skill set.

Speaker 1 And when they sent, when somebody sent me his obituary,

Speaker 1 I felt sad. Wow.

Speaker 1 This is my last line from him, and I think you'll like it. These are some of the people you deal with.

Speaker 1 He says, now, Scott, I'm going to speed it up because he was on pills a lot and he drank all day and did cocaine all day. So it was a constant battle of being pickled.
But he's like,

Speaker 1 I think he died five years before I met him. I was pretty sure it's the dope keeping him alive.
I think he died. He just doesn't know it yet.
But he would be like, now, Scott, you know

Speaker 1 don't do

Speaker 1 cocaine anymore. And I'd go, I know, man.
He goes, I used to do a boatload of it, but I don't do it anymore. I say, I know.
And he'd pour cocaine in his hand.

Speaker 1 He goes, but this right here, that's just a bump.

Speaker 1 And I'm looking, going,

Speaker 1 what?

Speaker 1 You just did cocaine. And he said, and you know, I don't sell cocaine anymore either.
And I'd say, I know, man. He goes, I used to sell truckloads of it.
I said, I know. I know you don't do it.

Speaker 1 Now, but if you need them five ounces, I can get them for you for this much money. And I'm like, I don't, that's the kind of stuff, man.
You got to find humor in that. But, yeah.

Speaker 1 May he rest in peace.

Speaker 2 May he rest in peace. Well, thank you, Scott.
Thank you for everything. That was a lot of fun.

Speaker 1 I appreciate it. I appreciate you, man.

Speaker 2 And good luck on the book. I guarantee it's going to sell like crazy.
One more time, Jamie.

Speaker 1 Throw that up there so everybody can take a look at it.

Speaker 1 There it is.

Speaker 2 Code name Pale Horse. It's available now.
Did you do an audiobook?

Speaker 1 Yes, I'm sorry. Thank you for saying that.
It's my voice. Thank you.
Yeah, it's my voice.

Speaker 1 Actually, that was something I was told I needed to to say.

Speaker 1 So, yeah, I've, no offense to the other peers of mine that have done books or just mentor or people that have done it before me, but if I click on it and I hear, there I was in the basement, I'm like, what in the hell?

Speaker 2 That has to be your voice.

Speaker 1 So I read the book, and then we'll see what happens as far as TV and stuff like that. Someone's going to want to do something for sure.
I did.

Speaker 1 I've been on,

Speaker 1 again, the tactical stuff. I've been in armor on

Speaker 1 movie sets in Tennessee. And

Speaker 1 I actually did a cameo.

Speaker 1 In the movie world, I have one kill under my belt. All right.

Speaker 1 But that's it, man. I'm just trying to pay it forward, still trying to learn, still trying to do good things.
Well, tell us with this.

Speaker 2 I know something good's going to come out of this because the story is incredible.

Speaker 1 Thank you very much.

Speaker 2 Thank you. Thanks, brother.

Speaker 1 Thanks for being here.

Speaker 2 All right. Bye, everybody.