#2279 - Ky Dickens

Speaker 0 Joe Rogan podcast, check it out!

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Speaker 1 Very nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well.
I really loved your series,

Speaker 1 the telepathy tapes.

Speaker 1 I had long suspected that there was some sort of a way to prove that there's something going on.

Speaker 1 There's no way that that would be a thing for so long that people would talk about certain moments where people could read people's minds or certain moments where there was something that was being exchanged that wasn't verbal, it wasn't facial expressions, it wasn't body language, there was something going on.

Speaker 1 And the telepathy tapes,

Speaker 1 excuse me, the telepathy tapes essentially proved it.

Speaker 1 But what has been has there been pushback about this? Like, I know there's a lot of hardcore skeptics that never want to believe.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think anytime you're pushing the status quo, there's going to be pushback, of course, you know, but I think the overwhelming amount of emails that we've gotten from families and others that have a non-speaking child have been

Speaker 2 so excited that this news is finally out there. Same thing with teachers that have been witnessing, like you said, for witnessing this in classrooms and in their homes for decades, you know.

Speaker 2 And when facilitated communication first came to America, it was the 90s.

Speaker 1 And seriously. What does that mean, facilitated communication?

Speaker 2 Okay, maybe we should back up to the very beginning.

Speaker 2 I mean, so

Speaker 1 I wonder,

Speaker 2 okay, so what the podcast is about is our non-speaking individuals who tend to have a praxia, which is a mind-body disconnect. And those individuals cannot speak with, you know, using their voice.

Speaker 2 Speaking is a fine motor skill, whereas pointing pointing to letters is a gross motor skill. So, spelling to communicate is how many of these individuals communicate, right?

Speaker 2 And when the first

Speaker 2 and well, and with that in mind, I just want to say one quick thing: that often people historically have looked at people with apraxia or non-speakers, and they think that because they can't speak, they can't think, that they're not in there, they don't presume competence, and none of that is true.

Speaker 2 These individuals have a hard time controlling their body, right?

Speaker 2 And so, if you can't control your body,

Speaker 2 people make all sorts of assumptions, you know, and that's been really difficult.

Speaker 2 And so, I think that the subjects in this project who are non-speakers with autism have been up against all sorts of different battles, from people not presuming they're competent, from people doubting their way of communication through spelling to communicate.

Speaker 2 And then, of course, it comes out in many cases that these individuals can read minds, have a plethora of other, for lack of better words, spiritual gifts, and then the parents and teachers often aren't believed about that either.

Speaker 2 So it's like there's stigma every which way.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And the podcast is kind of a collision of all these stigmas and really trying to break down those stigmas and be like, here's the truth. These people are in there.

Speaker 2 Spelling is a valid form of communication. And yes, many of them say they have spiritual gifts, which I think we can pretty much validate at this point.

Speaker 1 When you say spiritual gifts, what do you mean by that?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so when I first stumbled into this, which we can talk about later if you want, when I first kind of stumbled into this, I thought this was just about telepathy, right?

Speaker 2 And that there were these individuals and their parents and teachers were claiming they could read minds.

Speaker 2 And as I start meeting more and more and more of these families, and again, like I said, teachers, it's not limited to just families,

Speaker 2 one thing that they started telling me was telepathy is the tip of the iceberg. And I didn't know what that meant.
You know, what do you mean telepathy is the

Speaker 2 iceberg? And

Speaker 2 it's true because I think whether or not it's ability to see disease or illness in someone and be able to diagnose it before this person knows that there's something wrong.

Speaker 2 Reading an aura and saying that they can see a color around not just animals and humans, but plants.

Speaker 2 Being able to speak multiple languages, even though you haven't been taught them, or playing instruments and knowing music, or being able to access almost any song and having perfect pitch, being able to visit people in dreams.

Speaker 2 And then, I mean, I think some of the more just like mind-altering, shocking things for me was how many non-speaking individuals have said that they they are able to speak with people from the other side.

Speaker 2 And yeah, so it didn't just start with telepathy or end with telepathy.

Speaker 1 It's a plethora of things. So do you think that this is an emerging aspect of human consciousness?

Speaker 1 Or do you think perhaps this is something maybe we had before we were verbal that we've lost, but that lays dormant? Like that we don't need it, so like a muscle, it atrophies.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think that's exactly right. I mean, I think we all have these abilities.
I think this is all part of us.

Speaker 2 And in the telepathy tapes in episode five in particular, we get into animal communication through telepathy and a story of elephants that knew when someone who was like in charge of their big game preserve had died and they'd walk days to his house and to kind of stay there for grieving and then would come back every year on the day of his death.

Speaker 2 I mean just unbelievably beautiful stuff. Rupert Sheldrake has talked,

Speaker 2 has written at length, a brilliant Cambridge biologist, about dogs, experiments he's done that kind of show the dogs know when their owners are coming home, and sometimes cats.

Speaker 2 So, this seems to be part and parcel of the animal kingdom, right? And many of us have had that experience of phone telepathy, where I was just thinking of someone and they call.

Speaker 1 People like to dismiss that as being just coincidence, but

Speaker 1 just why do people want to dismiss everything? Like, that's the problem. It's like, I think, I think the real fear is being fool.
That's the fear, which is why

Speaker 1 the problem with any sort of telepathy or any sort of psychic ability, the problem is there's so many charlatans and so many people get duped. And it's really common.
I mean,

Speaker 1 it's so common, it's everywhere. You see these psychic palm reading signs everywhere you go.
And because of that, it's in the realm forever of nonsense.

Speaker 1 And if you believe in nonsense, you're not a person to be taken seriously.

Speaker 1 So if you're a scientist and you're studying human neurochemistry and you're studying neuroscience, there's no way you're going to support this unless it's just beating you over the head with overwhelming evidence.

Speaker 1 And then perhaps you say, maybe there's something here.

Speaker 2 I think that's changing, actually.

Speaker 2 And one of the things that we look at in the telepathy tapes in episode 6, which we call our science episode, is this idea of materialism, which I'm sure you've heard of.

Speaker 2 You know, this idea that, at least for the past few hundred years, that the reigning philosophy around how we interpret the world

Speaker 2 is only true if we can measure it and observe it, right?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 that makes you seem foolish if you believe in something that can't be measured or observed, like a psi phenomenon like telepathy or precognition or dreams being able to communicate with someone or any of that stuff would be thrown out as being silly.

Speaker 2 And I think there's been a massive effort to make that true, right?

Speaker 2 That if you believe this or you're a scientist and you want to publish this, we're going to dismiss you or ridicule you just for even daring to ask that question.

Speaker 2 Research about this type of stuff has been dismissed because it's materialist, you know, scientists who've, for a long time,

Speaker 2 run the journals.

Speaker 1 But

Speaker 2 there is something interesting here, which is that consciousness, we don't know where it comes from, you know? And so what

Speaker 2 a brilliant scientist, Dean Radin, talks about in the telepathy tapes is that if you think of materialism as a pyramid, right, and the base of the pyramid and all the things that have built up our world, which are biology and physics and chemistry and all those things, those have rules and properties, and we shouldn't throw those out.

Speaker 2 Those are pretty much true. But currently, at the top of the pyramid is consciousness, and we can't explain where that comes from and why it's there.

Speaker 2 But if you just take consciousness from the top and put it on the bottom, so that consciousness is the basis of all reality, right?

Speaker 2 That consciousness is fundamental, that all of everything is a product of our thoughts first, then we can account for all this stuff. Then we can account for precognition or telepathy.

Speaker 2 And it's not that big of a a change. It's just flipping kind of the order of the pyramid.
And I think that makes a lot of sense.

Speaker 2 And so there's been a lot of scientists who have looked into near-death experience research, who've looked into the research around telepathy, who've looked into the research around precognition, and said, we can't dismiss this.

Speaker 2 This is happening. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence here.
There's a lot of things that add up.

Speaker 2 So we're going to start the Academy of Post-Materialist Sciences, where we will take this stuff seriously, and we will look at the research and we will advance science.

Speaker 2 And I tend to believe that there needs to be a bit of there needs to be quite a few funerals but I think in like 50 to 100 years

Speaker 2 the scientists that we're we're gripping on to the materialist paradigm yeah I really believe that that's going to be kind of like the flat earthers in the future like I think the scientists doing this are on the right side of history because

Speaker 2 you can't you have to account for it right you know

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Speaker 1 we have to account for it we don't exactly know where it comes from and

Speaker 1 there's a lot of people that think that the universe is formed through consciousness yeah which is this is thomas campbell's take on things i don't know if you're familiar with it yeah he was a mind mind-bender when I had him in here.

Speaker 1 I was like, wait, what are you saying? Exactly.

Speaker 1 You have to listen to it three or four times, and then you have to, I told him, listen, let's stop here. We'll do it again, because I'm going to have to absorb this.

Speaker 1 But the concept is

Speaker 1 that

Speaker 1 essentially the universe is formulated through consciousness in some way.

Speaker 1 And that we're interacting with it through consciousness. And that it's not as as real as we want to believe it is.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, and even if you just basic it down, right? Like this room. What came first? The room or the thought of the room? Everything in this room.
It was a thought first.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 Everything. Right.

Speaker 2 Everything on our planet was a thought first.

Speaker 1 Well, everything that we thought.

Speaker 2 Except for the planet itself. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I've always said that, that I think that ideas might be a life form.

Speaker 1 That they get into people's heads and then people manufacture physical objects out of these ideas, whether it's art. And I think that's one of the reasons why we like art so much.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's how this whole podcast started, I think, for me.

Speaker 1 Sure.

Speaker 2 You know? I was reading that book, Big Magic. I don't know if you've read that book.
It's

Speaker 2 wonderful.

Speaker 2 Well, I guess I should back. You know, I was doing a lot of documentary work that was on social issues, right? That was all like fixing broken things in our great country.

Speaker 2 And then I had a few deaths in my own life.

Speaker 2 And I thought, my gosh, whatever I do next, I want to fix what's broken in humans, because I was in a complete topsy-turvy thing of how do these great people that are heroes, you know, a police officer going in and saving someone.

Speaker 2 My other friend was taking care of the unhoused in Kansas City, and how do they die? So I was going through my own just like kind of grief process.

Speaker 2 I'm thinking, whatever I do next, I don't want to look anymore, which I was humbled to do that work of broken social systems. I want to fix what's broken in humanity and figure out what that is.

Speaker 2 But anyway, I was reading Big Magic, and this is a book about how ideas by Elizabeth Gilbert, how ideas are outside of us. The creative process is, it comes to you.
And

Speaker 2 it's wonderful in the book they talk about songwriters who hoot a song. And if you don't grab it, you'll hear that same song on the radio or just how a story will come to you fully formed.

Speaker 2 And one of the kind of topics that comes up in that book, too, is you don't ask the creative, whatever it is, God, Muse, the ether, right, to

Speaker 2 give this to you. You tell it.
I'm going to do this with you. It's going to be great.
And so I said that out loud. I was reading this book.
I was in this moment of just major shift in my life.

Speaker 2 And I said, whatever I do next, I want to solve the question of where we're going and why we're here and what it all means. And do we have a consciousness and does it survive? And then,

Speaker 2 and no, I actually didn't ask it. I said, yeah, I said, I'm going to do this next.

Speaker 2 And I didn't know what it was going to look like, but then started reading, you know, all the things I could in consciousness, tree communication and about near-death experiences and Ian Stevenson's work and all sorts of things.

Speaker 2 And then I heard a podcast with Dr. Diane Hennessy-Powell, who was a a Harvard, you know,

Speaker 2 a Johns Hopkins educated, you know, taught at Harvard scientist, who was saying that non-speakers that she'd tested had demonstrated a remarkable ability for telepathy and reading minds.

Speaker 2 And that was like

Speaker 2 lightning. It just kind of hit, like, this is the thing.
And I really believe if something's intended for you, it won't miss you, you know.

Speaker 2 But I think that concept of big magic was a bit of that, of asking, telling the

Speaker 2 muse, you know, to

Speaker 1 guide you. Yeah, yeah.
To guide you towards something that can illuminate this issue.

Speaker 1 So did you have a preconceived notion of

Speaker 1 telepathy or spiritual gifts or anything before this?

Speaker 2 No, I mean, I think like a lot of people,

Speaker 2 like the idea of mediums and psychics, it felt like people that are often trying to just make money off of people in really vulnerable situations.

Speaker 2 And I've always believed certainly there's got to be people who have certain gifts like that, you know, but that the vast majority couldn't be trusted.

Speaker 2 Or, you know, I didn't think telepathy could be real. That seems impossible.
It just seems impossible. Even things like plant communication felt impossible.
Or,

Speaker 2 I mean, I mean, none of that was something that was

Speaker 2 was like my worldview. You know, I was working on, you know, solving problems around paid family medical leave and making health insurance more affordable and accessible.

Speaker 2 Like it was not my cup of tea, really. And so,

Speaker 2 which was kind of great because as I tumbled into this world, I mean, I was really wide-eyed. I was like, wait a second,

Speaker 2 have I been wrong about everything?

Speaker 2 And that's kind of where I ended up: I had to go revisit everything I ever thought about the world because I started realizing our entire paradigm is wrong. I mean, or a lot of it is.

Speaker 2 That was my experience.

Speaker 1 So, let's talk about what you saw first. Like, what was the first example where it was like an aha moment for you?

Speaker 2 Yeah,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 1 after I heard the interview with Dr.

Speaker 2 Diane Honeysey-Powell, I, you know, I zoomed with her and then I asked if I could go see her and meet her and talk about this a bit, you know, because I thought this could be the next project.

Speaker 2 And I just knew it was going to be the next project, right? So one of the first things I had her do was I was like, can you just tell me about some of the emails that come in from parents?

Speaker 2 And I had her just kind of go through reading some emails from parents. And it was one after the other.

Speaker 2 Like, I didn't believe this, and I didn't believe my wife, I didn't believe my husband that this could be possible, but we've tested it, we've tested it. People were sending tests.

Speaker 2 And I thought, okay, whatever is going on here, these parents don't know that any other parents are going through this.

Speaker 2 They think a singular miracle is happening in their home, that this child can read their thoughts. And that this is where the story is: that there's so many parents who haven't been listened to.

Speaker 2 And so I really thought this was about parents at first, and then discovered, no, there's been teachers writing about this for 30 years,

Speaker 2 capturing it, videotaping this phenomenon going on, and scared to come out about it. And I think same with the families, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, what a weird thing to say this child can read my mind, or this child seems to be able to do X, Y, Z, things that seem impossible.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, my first thought was, okay, I need to see this with my own eyes. And so.

Speaker 2 Dr. Powell had just been reached out to by a family in Mexico who discovered that their 13-year-old daughter was inside.
They didn't think she was, and she was able to communicate.

Speaker 2 And the reason they discovered that was during COVID, you know, they were in charge of homeschooling and started being like, okay, let's see what you know.

Speaker 2 And bing, bing, bing, bing, she starts spelling, she knew an awful lot. And I think they were shocked.
And pretty soon thereafter, she said, I can read your mind. And they thought, what?

Speaker 2 And they would do tests. What did I just draw? And she'd say, what they just drew.
You know, what are we thinking?

Speaker 1 And she would write it.

Speaker 2 And so.

Speaker 1 Do they say what they see?

Speaker 1 or how they see it? Like, if someone writes something down, do they see the word or do they know it?

Speaker 2 Well, I think that's a really good question. And, you know, we've done a few experiments that, you know, again, I'm not a scientist.

Speaker 2 Like, the experiments I was doing for the film, I mean, which is going to be now a film, but the podcast was kind of me just trying to understand, like, proof of concept what is going on here, right?

Speaker 2 And I can only say what spellers have told me, and there's been quite a few spellers who say I can see through someone's eyes or I can hear through their ears.

Speaker 2 And others who seem to have a merged consciousness with someone that they're very close to, whether it be a father or a teacher or a communication partner, father or whatever.

Speaker 2 Where

Speaker 2 we did some experiments with one mom where we'd show an image to her. Her son, who was sitting across the room, would all of a sudden start writing what the image was.

Speaker 2 But what was so fascinating is sometimes the mom wouldn't even know what the image was. So at one point, she thought it was paint.
No, no, she thought there was a food fight.

Speaker 2 It was ketchup and mustard, and he wrote paint. So, so at that point, it's like she's not obviously sending a thought, right?

Speaker 2 He seems to be tapping in the second images in her own mind. So, for us, it was a big question of, is this just sheer telepathy? Because a few parents have told me, No, this is bigger than that.

Speaker 2 It seems like a merging of consciousness of some sort.

Speaker 1 Yeah, in a bizarre way, if the mother doesn't know what it is and the child does, that's strange.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's really fascinating. And, you know, but I also, one of the stories that I loved

Speaker 2 goes back, so Dr. Rupert Sheldrake, the Cambridge biologist who was in this project,

Speaker 2 he didn't believe in Tilo for the either. I mean, I think a lot of scientists, right, don't believe this stuff right away either.
And

Speaker 2 he had a

Speaker 2 senior professor that he really looked up to, Sir Rudolph Peters. And he was knighted by Queen Elizabeth for being such a brilliant scientific mind, right?

Speaker 2 And this Sir Rudolph Peters was in like the tea room at Cambridge one time and telling young Dr. Sheldrake, young Rupert here, that

Speaker 2 he just heard of a blind boy that he tested who obviously is blind and can't read an eye chart. But if his mother is looking at it, he could read it.
Whoa.

Speaker 2 And that's how Rupert Sheldrake fell into this world.

Speaker 2 And that boy was diagnosed with, you know, being blind, but also at the time, what they called, you know, severe mental retardation, which no, we don't call it that.

Speaker 2 But that's who knows what this young individual have, if he had a praxia or what was going on or he had autism, but he's not.

Speaker 1 Well, because autism and blindness, like that's a huge impediment, especially nonverbal autism and being blind. Like, how do you learn anything?

Speaker 1 So, you would assume that there's something wrong with the child when really there's just a lack of the ability to communicate. This episode is brought to you by the farmer's dog.

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Speaker 2 Yeah, with I mean, with non-speaking individuals with apraxia, they are in there. They're so smart.
It's just that mind-body disconnect and not being able to, you know.

Speaker 1 What do they think causes that? Do they have an understanding of what it is?

Speaker 2 I, you know, I don't know.

Speaker 2 There's so many wonderful experts out there looking into this, and I don't know what causes apraxia, but I do know that there's a lot of supports to help individuals who have apraxia to communicate.

Speaker 2 And the world is just making it really difficult for these individuals.

Speaker 1 Have you ever seen this young blind boy that uses echolocation and he could ride a skateboard and move around?

Speaker 1 How bizarre is that?

Speaker 2 It's cool. I mean, you know, in some ways, you think of like echolocation or

Speaker 2 being able to see through infrared as like a sixth sense, like a sixth situation, a sense that we don't have, right? But it's like a sense some other creatures get around with.

Speaker 2 So it's like what we're talking about here is almost like a seventh sense, right? It's something beyond that. But I just, I there's something so beautiful about that, right?

Speaker 2 That if you, if humans are so creative that we will find our way to get around the world and find our ways to communicate.

Speaker 1 Also,

Speaker 1 when you're missing a sense, your other senses are stronger. This has always been a suspicion.
I think that's been proven. Is that correct? Yeah.

Speaker 1 That people are better at hearing things if they're blind or seeing things if they're deaf. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I think that is absolutely true.

Speaker 2 And I think though, as far as you know, individuals with apraxia go, again, like it's mind-body disconnect, there's so many of the spellers I've met who don't know they had a body at first.

Speaker 2 They can't feel their body. You know, they want heavy boots to know where their feet are or a heavy necklace to know where their chest is.

Speaker 2 And I think not being in your body, not knowing you have your body, leaves you to live in this consciousness space more, right? This world of thought

Speaker 2 where we can't imagine that. We're so bound to our body.
We have these

Speaker 2 dissociative boundaries where it's like, you're Joe, and I'm high. And

Speaker 2 so I think

Speaker 2 that's what heightens a lot of this for them is just not, you know, feeling as grounded into their bodies.

Speaker 1 In the wackiest of conspiracy theories, when people talk about the government's connection to alien intelligence, that they recruit these nonverbal autistic kids because they're the ones who can communicate with aliens.

Speaker 2 I don't believe that.

Speaker 1 No, I don't believe that either. No, it's the wackiest of conspiracy theories, but the idea being that if you were the government, you would look for someone who is extraordinary in that

Speaker 1 they're more open

Speaker 1 to this ability to interact than we would be. They do not have the burden of feeling foolish.

Speaker 1 They don't have the burden of societal constraints that we've kind of culturally put on the idea of alien life being able to communicate with them. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, this is,

Speaker 2 I have received a question around, you know, could the government utilize these individuals? You're not going to be able to do that.

Speaker 1 You're not discussing. That's the first thing you think about.
People think about it. If someone's extraordinary, could the government, like the X-Men, could be a good idea.
Yeah, right, right.

Speaker 1 Like, how will the government utilize this and manipulate it for their own gain? That's what everybody worries.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it's a fair worry.

Speaker 1 I mean, it is a fair worry.

Speaker 2 And, you know, like, we try to be very protective of the families and make sure that they're safe and that they're only out there if they want to be out there and, you know, that type of thing.

Speaker 1 And even if they know what that means. Yeah.
That's the problem. You say you want to be out there.
Do you know what that means?

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. But I will say, I mean, every non-speaking individual with these gifts that I've ever met won't use it for bad or nefarious means.

Speaker 2 They're interested in love. They're interested in connection.
Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Of course. Yeah.
Yeah. Well, the problem is if they were used and didn't know what they were doing, you know.

Speaker 2 They would know. They'll know.
They can read your thoughts and they know what's up. They know what's up better than anyone, I think.

Speaker 1 Interesting.

Speaker 1 When you

Speaker 1 first started, was there stages of acceptance for you with these ideas? Yeah. What was the first stage?

Speaker 2 I mean, the first stage was, I think,

Speaker 2 I never had the barrier of whether or not they're in there.

Speaker 2 You know, I worked, I helped start the inclusion program in my high school and worked and cared for people, you know, with varying abilities my whole life. So that I knew they were in there.

Speaker 2 But I think the next thing for me was the telepathy.

Speaker 2 And when you see it, and when you talk to enough parents who are saying, all you need to do is go see it, it's not like, does it show up? Or like, will it appear?

Speaker 2 It's like for the parents and teachers to report this as happening, if you go work with a speller, you just see it. So that was pretty phenomenal.

Speaker 2 And then the first person we saw being able to do it was this girl, Mia, and she was still in the early stages of learning to spell to communicate. So she was being touched.

Speaker 2 It often helps, like first with the wrist, and then here, and then here, and then on the head, and then often there's no touch at all, right?

Speaker 2 It's just like learning that body and learning those supports to control your motor. So

Speaker 2 Dr. Powell was like, ah, no scientists will take this because she was being touched.
And I think a lot of us in the room were like, wait, people think she's her mom sending Morse code?

Speaker 2 Like they're they planned. I mean, of course, that's ridiculous.
It really is. But then the next individual could do it across the room and wasn't being touched.

Speaker 2 And, you know, anyone that we saw thereafter wasn't being touched. So that was pretty remarkable.
And I don't think touch actually has.

Speaker 2 I think telepathy is really cool if you're being touched, you know? But

Speaker 2 so the telepathy was the first one. And then I think the second one was

Speaker 2 the language stuff. A lot of parents saying, you know, we have no idea how, but she's speaking Portuguese and no one in a house speaks Portuguese.
Or people talking about, you know.

Speaker 1 And this has been documented?

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah. It's quite common, actually.

Speaker 1 And these are non-verbal kids.

Speaker 2 Non-speakers, yeah.

Speaker 1 Non-speakers.

Speaker 1 So, what is the difference between non-verbal and non-speakers?

Speaker 2 Well, I think non-verbal is this idea, right? Like that you're

Speaker 2 not able to make

Speaker 2 like language, you know, in a way where like speaking is just like they're they can be verbal, they can communicate, they just can't speak it. Okay, just can't speak it

Speaker 2 without the supports of a communication partner, like, you know, that is

Speaker 2 the goal is to type independently.

Speaker 1 Do they make noises?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think, especially with apraxia, there's often a lack of body control,

Speaker 2 voice control. So, so there is like a beautiful soundtrack that I've come to love of non-speakers that will often be like

Speaker 2 some grunting or just lack of body control.

Speaker 2 And actually, I think if someone sees a non-speaker out in public, one of the most loving things you can say is, like, I know you can't control your body, I know that's not you. You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 Because the person in there might want to be doing XYZ, but but just cannot control their body. And imagine how frustrating that would be.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 So these people,

Speaker 1 they're non-verbal. And when you say that they can speak Portuguese, they

Speaker 1 understand Portuguese. Do they write it? Like, how does this manifest itself?

Speaker 2 Yeah, so, I mean, there's one young girl I'm thinking of in particular, but there's this, again, this has come up now with, I don't know, 15 non-speakers that I've met.

Speaker 2 But the girl I'm thinking of,

Speaker 2 her, you know, she will work during the day with a paraprofessional and a

Speaker 2 spelling coach. You know, there's a, you know, the education system, there might be two or three people in the room, and three people were in the room this day.

Speaker 2 And she started spelling in a language and they didn't know what it is. So they looked it up and it was Portuguese.
And then she started spelling in Spanish. And they were like, this is wild.

Speaker 2 And she also said she knew hieroglyphics.

Speaker 1 What? Yeah.

Speaker 2 And then they were like, well, how do we test this? Because if we know the answer, she'll read our mind and know. So they had to just

Speaker 1 wild already. Yeah.
Like, you have to worry about this kid reading your mind. It might be bullshit.

Speaker 2 So they had to look up pictures of hieroglyphics and not know what the pictures were representing to be like,

Speaker 2 okay, here's the feather.

Speaker 1 I mean, I don't know what a hieroglyphic, whatever, a feather on top of a stone or whatever the picture was of.

Speaker 2 And here's this picture and this picture. And then she identified them.
And then they looked them up and they were right.

Speaker 1 Wow. All of them 100% accurate? Yeah.
Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 2 So, and I'm not saying, of course, not every.

Speaker 1 What the hell is going on there?

Speaker 2 Not every.

Speaker 2 What is that?

Speaker 1 Well, I mean. Like that is, that's beyond bizarre.
Did you give her a cuneiform?

Speaker 2 I mean, I wasn't there for this. I, I, you know, her mom reported it to me and it has the email that she received from the staff.
And so, you know, the staff is just like, this is what happened today.

Speaker 2 And, you know, because these individuals are spelling to communicate, it can take a lot of time. It can take a lot of work and effort to get that information out.
So, anything that comes out, usually,

Speaker 2 I mean, a good spelling coach will ask this child first, right? Is it okay if I share this with your parents or is this private between us or whatever?

Speaker 2 But if they say it's okay to share, they will write a letter home. And this is what happened.
And that was in a letter home. This is what happened today.

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Speaker 2 In our session.

Speaker 1 Your child reads hieroglyphics.

Speaker 1 What the hell?

Speaker 1 Like, what does that mean? Is that the Akashic record? Like, is this child like pulling from all the information that's in the ether? Like, how would you be able to read a dead language?

Speaker 1 That, I mean, what percentage of the human population can read that without AI, without assistance?

Speaker 1 It's got to be tiny.

Speaker 2 It's remarkable.

Speaker 1 Tiny, tiny percentage.

Speaker 2 I mean, from a scientific perspective, and this is one of the things that there was a professor, Bernie Ribland, who first, I think, came up with this idea, and then I know Dr.

Speaker 2 Powell kind of expanded on it, which Bernie Rimlund first saw this kind of gift in nonspeakers, I think in the 70s, I mean a while back and was like, ESP should be considered a savant skill. And Dr.

Speaker 2 Powell has talked about this as well. So savant skills, right, are study or accepted by science, this idea that like,

Speaker 2 how do you know the language or math or this or that when you haven't been exposed to it or haven't been, you know, educated with even maybe the most simplest music skills, but now you're playing a symphony, right?

Speaker 2 So savant skills are being able to really excel at something that you haven't been taught. And savant,

Speaker 2 there's people who are born with the savant skills, and also sometimes you can mean accidental savants, so you get hit on the head.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I read about a guy who got assaulted, and all of a sudden you get complex geometry.

Speaker 2 Yeah, complex geometry and stuff like that. So,

Speaker 2 what's wild is that the materialist scientific point of view accepts savant skills.

Speaker 2 We don't know where they come from, we don't know why, we don't know how people can know the stuff they haven't been taught, but we accept them as these real big question marks as real.

Speaker 2 So, what Bernie Riblin said and later Dr. Powell was like, ESP should be considered a savant skill.
These people know something and we don't know how they know it, but they do.

Speaker 2 They haven't been taught it. They haven't been exposed to it.
And that could be thoughts. It could be knowledge about the future.
It could be knowledge about language.

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 this is what the whole hope is about the telepathy tapes, right? Is that people will start to put money behind this research.

Speaker 2 Because for so long, research around this type of stuff wouldn't be funded because it would be just dismissed. It's impossible.
It's impossible. It's impossible.
And one of the moms

Speaker 2 in the telepathy tapes, who I love so much, her name is Manisha, she talks about her son. She goes, Akhil is the data.
You want to look at the data. You want the data.
Like, look at my son.

Speaker 2 He's the data.

Speaker 2 And some of these parents are wanting, desperate for answers.

Speaker 2 They're not in the question of if it's happening. They're wondering how it's happening.
And I think I'm in that part too. Like, when the people that are just,

Speaker 2 is it possible? Is it possible? I think for most of us in this world, it's like, yeah, you're like 10 steps behind, man. Like, it's possible.
It's not a matter if, it's why.

Speaker 2 And that's my hope: is that this can, there's like a,

Speaker 2 the, the chains will be, like, you know, let off the scientists.

Speaker 1 These children that can read things, are they typing it out like on an iPad? Are they writing it physically? How do they do it?

Speaker 2 Usually, so there's different forms of spelling to communicate.

Speaker 2 Often there's like a letterboard, right?

Speaker 2 Sometimes it's a stencil letterboard that you poke a pencil through, so you really know when you get that letter, and it's really satisfying to get the pulp poke through.

Speaker 2 Sometimes there's like just a laminate board where you kind of point to a letter. Some individuals are typing into a spelling kind of app on an iPad or there's different spelling like

Speaker 2 AAC devices, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then there's

Speaker 2 some individuals who end up going to the QWERTY key, you know, the typical keyboard that we all type with on a keyboard. So

Speaker 1 there's varying levels of ability in terms of using your body.

Speaker 2 Yeah, using your body. And the thing I think why spelling has been so,

Speaker 2 you know, there's such a stigma around spelling.

Speaker 2 And I feel so bad for individuals using spelling because they're they're in there and they are communicating, but people have said, oh, but you need these supports, so these can't be your words, right?

Speaker 2 Like, like for a spelling partner, let's say,

Speaker 2 you have to kind of learn to be a communication partner. You have to learn to

Speaker 2 really understand like the mind-body disconnect and what's going on with the non-speaker in front of you.

Speaker 2 And sometimes their hand gets lost in space, so it's good to like pull the board away and put it back in again. Or sometimes you have to cue them, like, go for it.

Speaker 2 Okay, get that letter, because that will help with their motor planning, right?

Speaker 2 So, those supports are critical, but people will look at those supports and say, oh, well, that must mean they're not typing independently.

Speaker 2 But to me, that's as wild as saying, oh, you need reading glasses, you can't read. No, that's a support to help you read.

Speaker 2 You can still read if you're reading classes, and that's how I think of the communication.

Speaker 1 There's still no influence on the words or letters being chosen. No, no.
No.

Speaker 2 And I think one of the things, so

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 the stigma I think that really started for spelling was

Speaker 2 facilitated communication. Actually, this is like the first thing you asked, so we're going full circle.
So for a long time, there was just no hope of getting

Speaker 2 people who weren't verbal non-speakers out. There just wasn't.
And then all of a sudden, facilitated communication came along. And it was developed, I think,

Speaker 2 in Australia, I think.

Speaker 2 But this was ideas of you know, put some pressure on someone's wrist so they can really feel where they're at in space, right?

Speaker 2 Like, they'll be able to

Speaker 2 spell. And it was a miracle.
I mean, it was all over the news. This was great.
And some of the first parents that were using facilitated communication started reporting. There's telepathy involved.

Speaker 2 And this was at Syracuse University in the 90s. Syracuse knew about this and started kind of burying that information.
And there was a lot of like kind of,

Speaker 2 you'll be let go if you're teaching this and you're talking about this. So there was kind of big cover-up.
So this was new. This is not new that this was going on.
But then

Speaker 2 there were some claims of, you know, sexual assault. There's awful things that happened where what was being claimed didn't happen.
And so people started blaming facilitated communication.

Speaker 2 Oh, well, maybe they're pushing their hand or doing this or doing that.

Speaker 2 And I think for a lot of people who train in facilitated communication, you're using your hand to put pressure so the individual knows where the body is in space, but you're not pushing their hand.

Speaker 2 But there probably are some cases where that had happened. Well, anyway, so then it got kind of just stigmatized, right? It's pseudosciences.

Speaker 2 And then, so spelling evolved into these forms where it was like, no touch, do not touch. And so many of those spelling groups now

Speaker 2 are helping individuals. And the big tenant of this is you cannot touch them.
And

Speaker 2 that's where

Speaker 2 spelling's at now, is that you learn to communicate and there's no touch involved. But

Speaker 2 I'm one of these people that thinks like whatever the individual needs to help them communicate, it's okay. If you need a little touch, you know where your arm is.

Speaker 2 Or sometimes it helps you go faster if there's a little push.

Speaker 2 I think go for it, you know, help these individuals get out there. Right.

Speaker 1 This touch is not guiding them towards specific letters. This touch is just an affirmation just to help,

Speaker 1 to help them relax, to help them connect.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and it was really, you know, on set sometimes because every once in a while, some parents, like, hold the board and hold it there for their child.

Speaker 2 And we would use these dry erase, you know, markers on the screen to be like, is the board moving? And it wasn't.

Speaker 1 You know, it would be really interesting to get them in front of some scripts that are very difficult to read. That's why I brought up Cuneform

Speaker 1 and Sumerian and maybe even that crazy Voinich manuscript. You know what that is? No.
The Voinius Voinich manuscript is a book that is of an unknown language. Okay.

Speaker 1 And it's highly detailed and they don't know what it is. They don't know the language.
They don't know if it's a fraud. Oh, look at this.
This is the Voinius Voinich manuscript.

Speaker 1 They don't know when it emerged.

Speaker 1 There's a lot of suspicion that someone created it and tried to pass it off and sell it as an ancient language in a book.

Speaker 1 But then some people disagree with that because they think that the way the words are constructed seems to be in some sort of a uniform way. It's not gibberish.
It's not nonsense.

Speaker 1 But they do not know what it says. Obviously, I don't know jack shit about ancient languages, so I'm not the right person to be determining who's correct and

Speaker 1 who wants it to be correct so they're saying that wow i have not never heard of that yeah what is the current state of

Speaker 1 what go uh yeah let's see what it says what the whether they think it's real is there like a synopsis on

Speaker 1 what people think is there's facsimiles interesting

Speaker 1 okay uh university of bristol subsequently removed a reference to cheshar's claims from this website what is the website uh cheshar published its translation in the fold-out illustration in 2023.

Speaker 1 He claims it depicts a volcano, theories that it places a manuscript's creator near the island of Volcano, which was an active volcano during the 15th century.

Speaker 1 However, experts in medieval documents disputed the interpretation vigorously. Approached for comment, Lisa Fagan-Davis gave this explanation.

Speaker 1 As with most would-be Voynich interpreters, the logic of this proposal is circular and aspirational.

Speaker 1 He starts with a theory about what a particular series of glyphs might mean, usually because the words proximity to an image that he believes can interpret. Okay, so they don't buy that this

Speaker 1 interpretation of it is real. But

Speaker 1 they're pretty sure it's a language, which is just fucking insane. Scroll up a little higher.
Is there any debunkings of it?

Speaker 1 These are different people that have made interpretations and they seem to no one really

Speaker 1 various

Speaker 1 discussions.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Wow.
Imagine if you can get that in front of a non-verbal kid and he's like, oh, I know what that is.

Speaker 1 That'd be pretty wild. It'd be pretty wild.
Yeah, Jesus wrote this. Like,

Speaker 1 oh, he said he's coming back in August. Like, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 I mean, just the fact that the child can read hieroglyphics is insane. I would love to see, like, cuneiform or Sumerian in particular.

Speaker 1 We had an ancient language scholar named Wes Huffon, and he was explaining how a lot of these interpretations were of like the Sumerian text, which is the oldest version of

Speaker 1 a lot of these like biblical stories. In fact, he was like, I can't read it.
He goes,

Speaker 1 I can read all these different languages, but this one is so different than all the others, and it doesn't have anything that's like it.

Speaker 1 Like a lot of these other languages, you can find similarities in the way they're structured, the way the sentences are structured. There's none of that with Sumerian.

Speaker 1 It's like, this is a wacky language. He's like, I can't read it.
And he was brilliant. So when you talk to a guy like that, who's humble about it,

Speaker 1 but also very well read. And he's like, I don't know.

Speaker 1 What does it give that to the kid? So interesting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean, it seems like there's a lot of opportunity to really get into that with these nonverbal kids if you find one that, is there more than one that has this ability to do this?

Speaker 2 I mean, I can only comment on the people I've met, but I think

Speaker 2 of all the people that we're we're talking to a lot, you know, for the project and now the film,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, it's definitely more than one. I mean, at least I know 15 or 20

Speaker 2 who seem to know various languages they haven't been taught.

Speaker 1 15 or 20?

Speaker 1 No. Wow.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and

Speaker 2 one of the earlier children that Dr.

Speaker 2 Powell was studying, this boy knew really kind of odd languages like Russian and Japanese, and I think he was five or six and could just speak in different languages and knew different languages.

Speaker 2 It's absolutely remarkable.

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And is there a, like, even the most out there theory about what's going on?

Speaker 2 I mean, this is the thing, right? There hasn't been a lot of research around this phenomenon. And I think

Speaker 2 I can only go again off of what spellers have said. I mean, one thing is that they say that there's a neurology behind language, right? The current, the most baseline language is not with words.

Speaker 2 Words are these 3D objects that we attach to these thoughts and feelings, and that is the thing that they can understand, which makes sense. That would be what telepathy is, right?

Speaker 2 If you're not using words.

Speaker 1 Well, that is

Speaker 1 our version of telepathy. We make noise with our mouth, and then you can read my mind.
Right, yeah, kind of. Kind of.
I mean, in a clumsy way. Yeah.

Speaker 2 But if you think of prayer, right, that's telepathy.

Speaker 2 People who come back from a near-death experience and they say they have these communications with someone, you don't have a body. That's telepathy, right?

Speaker 2 Like, if a medium is talking to someone or getting messages from someone who's passed, like, that's telepathy. So, it seems like the baseline

Speaker 2 to me, like, all this has proven for me that we have a soul, or, you know, there's, or there's at least, if that word is triggering to someone, that at least there's a conscious body, there's a consciousness in each of us that doesn't need a body.

Speaker 2 And so, I think the

Speaker 2 language thing is like we've put words over this thing and that but the the telepathy the baseline is there no matter what and if you can understand the baseline of what's being communicated the words don't matter does that make sense it does yeah it does it's it's hard to grasp but it makes sense are you aware of um the history of uh research in ayahuasca

Speaker 1 uh i mean i know what it is but yeah like one of the more interesting uh aspects of it is when scientists first discovered it discovered its properties and they did experiments on it they wanted to call one of the ingredients telepathine.

Speaker 1 But due to the rules of scientific nomenclature, they realized that it had already been named harmine. So this harmine is one of the ingredients.

Speaker 1 It's in one of the plants that's used to make this brew.

Speaker 1 But when the scientists explored this and started experimenting with it, I think it was quite somewhere in the 20th century, early 20th century, they realized that they could read each other's minds and that they were communicating and that they were having a shared experience that seemed to be completely mental, but independently they all verified the exact same thing.

Speaker 1 And so that's why they wanted to name it telepathine, which is a way more fun word than harmine. Way more fun.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But this idea that we need something to access this dormant part of what is human consciousness. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I think that type of stuff can really help, right? I mean, people,

Speaker 2 I think what's cool is that a lot of the research on

Speaker 2 psychedelics is kind of converging with this stuff right now, you know, around

Speaker 2 telepathy and the non-speakers. I think a lot of people have had these experiences

Speaker 2 on psilocybin or on an ayahuasca trip or whatever, where

Speaker 2 there's this realization that

Speaker 2 we're way more mental. There is a non-physical world that is out there.

Speaker 1 Yeah, there's something. Yeah.
And this is this work and Thomas Campbell's work.

Speaker 1 And there's a bunch of people who are considering this now, which I always wonder, like, if you get an enormous number of people that

Speaker 1 have a shift in the way they view reality itself, like, what impact does that have on reality?

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, I think that's a big thing, right?

Speaker 2 And I keep thinking, you asked about the pushback around this. And what's interesting is it's not just from skeptics who don't want to believe in telepathy and that the

Speaker 2 non-visible world is real, but also from people in the spelling community who don't want people to mention telepathy out of fear that it's going to foil their efforts to make this like standard practice in schools.

Speaker 2 In fact, some of the teachers and others who've been involved in our project have been getting letters

Speaker 2 from the IASC, like a spelling group, saying, don't talk about telepathy or you're going to have your accreditation taken away.

Speaker 1 Why? I don't understand. Why would that mess with spelling?

Speaker 2 I think the fear is,

Speaker 2 I think the fear is that

Speaker 2 if you,

Speaker 2 I don't, I actually don't know. I mean, because most of the people I'm working with, almost all of them, every single one of the people I'm working with has

Speaker 2 sees this as happening in their homes and their classrooms, and it's not just teachers and parents and ministers and rabbis and parapsychologists and speech pathologists and occupational therapists.

Speaker 2 Like these are all the people reporting it, right? And for them, I think the thing is truth is never harmful. It might be difficult, but it's not harmful.

Speaker 2 And what this truth means is that we have to change our systems, right, of education. We have to change how we think about things.

Speaker 2 And I think there is a deep fear of people having their darkest, deepest thoughts exposed.

Speaker 2 That's probably not comfortable for the government, for people in control, for people who are controlling governments.

Speaker 1 Oh, I think that's coming, whether we like it or not.

Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. But

Speaker 2 why

Speaker 2 I think this truth might be really uncomfortable for some, but it's so important to get out there. You can't accept and love someone as a whole being unless you can see and know all of them, right?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 the only people I feel really in service to are the non-speakers who haven't had a voice and all the people loving and supporting them or who are saying, this is real. We want this out there.

Speaker 2 And so the gatekeeping around this has been massive. I mean, yes, from the science world, but also from the spelling world.

Speaker 1 But why from the spelling world? That's what I don't understand.

Speaker 2 There's so many challenges of people saying, oh, because they're using these supports, these words aren't their their own.

Speaker 2 And then I think there's this conflated idea, like, oh, if they know they're capable of telepathy, they'll think their thoughts aren't their own either. And

Speaker 2 it's a weird idea because just because you're talking to me doesn't mean that I don't have my own thoughts or words, right? Like, I can read a book which thoughts are coming at me.

Speaker 2 It doesn't mean I don't have my own thoughts. So you can hear thoughts, and that doesn't mean you don't have your own.
I mean, so it's like putting too much together that I think is

Speaker 2 talking about telepathy is not going to to foil spelling, but some people believe that to be true. And

Speaker 1 it just doesn't make any sense to me. Yeah.
Like, why would any I don't understand why spelling would even get involved in this? I don't know.

Speaker 1 I mean, like, spelling is universally accepted as being important.

Speaker 1 Well, it's

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Oh, but this is the problem.

Speaker 2 Spelling is not, there are so, I just talked to a parent the other day who said, I've been trying to get a communication partner with my daughter in school so she can contribute, and the school system will not afford, like, pay for that.

Speaker 2 They're like, nope, you cannot have a spelling communication partner.

Speaker 1 Is that just a funding issue?

Speaker 2 Well,

Speaker 2 no, there's a group called ASHA, the American Speech Language Association, who accredits speech-language pathologists.

Speaker 2 And they say that spelling is pseudoscience, and I don't know how communication could be called pseudoscience. What? And so, if you're a speech-language pathologist

Speaker 2 and you want to teach spelling in schools, that's considered like

Speaker 1 wait a minute. Why would they say

Speaker 1 I don't understand. What is the argument that spelling is pseudoscience?

Speaker 2 This is such a controversy that it's just maddening. I think, again, it's because of those supports.
Like because

Speaker 2 you might need a part, because you need a partner to spell, it's considered, oh, well, you're not spelling independently.

Speaker 1 So spelling is pseudoscience for non-verbal people or non-speakers, I should say.

Speaker 2 Well, it's not, but ASHA is saying that, which is making it.

Speaker 1 And they're only saying this because of the touch, the ability to touch people while they're doing it?

Speaker 2 Well, most of these individuals aren't being touched. I think that the problem is, I mean, the problem is that no one's presuming competence.

Speaker 1 So this is why it was confusing. You're saying spelling in regards to non-verbal.

Speaker 2 I'm sorry. Yeah.
Okay. Spelling.
Okay.

Speaker 2 Yes, restate this.

Speaker 2 So spelling is kind of the catch-all phrase

Speaker 2 for pointing to letters to communicate, be it on a letterboard or an iPad or even a keyboard, like what we're used to with a communication.

Speaker 1 So, they're going by this old concept

Speaker 1 that it's impossible to have any sort of psychic ability. So, if you're proving psychic ability through spelling, this is obviously bullshit without any examination of it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think

Speaker 2 that's a good summary.

Speaker 1 Back to what we were talking about before, that they don't want to be foolish. Right.

Speaker 2 So, this is a compounded issue. But one thing that's kind of I thought this was fascinating is that any type of like alternative form of communication has gone through immense battles to be validated.

Speaker 2 Like,

Speaker 2 oh my gosh, sign language.

Speaker 2 I think in the 1800s, there was a conference in Milan where everyone's like, we cannot teach sign language. Like, this is, people need to try to speak.
You know,

Speaker 2 sign language went through battles for, I mean, over 100 years to try to even get accepted as a real language. And it wasn't until the 70s or 80s when that happened.

Speaker 2 And then Braille, Louis Braille, who invented Braille, the people at the school where he invented it was like, you guys can't use this. We don't accept this.

Speaker 2 And we don't believe you can read by touching dots. And we don't believe you can type by poking holes.
That's impossible. That seems nuts.

Speaker 2 So when they did, they would do these tests with Louis and other students to be like, okay, you write one word and you spell, you know, and you read it with your dots. And they did.

Speaker 2 And then they'd say, it's fake. They planned it.
They pre-planned the words. And it wasn't until multiple, you know, variations that finally Braille was accepted.

Speaker 2 And now we're seeing the same thing with spelling to communicate. They need a communication partner.
Just like to read, you need glasses. It doesn't mean they're not communicating on their own.

Speaker 2 They just need someone to help support their motor control.

Speaker 1 Got it. So you're just using the term spelling in a different way than most people are accustomed to.
That's why I wanted to clarify. Yes, yes, yes.

Speaker 1 Super confused. Yes.

Speaker 1 So that seems like that's on them.

Speaker 1 I mean, if there's evidence that it works, like they should be brought up and people should say, like, what you're doing is a disservice, like, a huge disservice for whatever reason, for your own ego, for your own

Speaker 1 emotions. For

Speaker 2 now, you know, decades,

Speaker 2 if you have a praxia and you're a non-speaker and you're considered you're not in there, people will will treat them, put them in school systems where they're trying to teach them to like behaviors that are impossible if you can't control your body, and then often teach them over and over colors and shapes and teach them like they're they're not getting it, that that they're not smart.

Speaker 2 So they've been robbed of their education. They've been robbed of an entire livelihood.

Speaker 2 So to admit that we've been wrong about this entire population and educating them wrong, I mean, that's a lot of reckoning. That's a lot of wrong.

Speaker 2 And ABA therapy, which is now what kids go into, it's a multi-billion dollar industry. And I think that they profit very much so from having kids go into this type of therapy.

Speaker 2 And I think ABA therapy can be helpful for some people. It can be, you know, but for a lot of nonspeakers with apraxia, it's like traumatic because you're- What is ABA therapy

Speaker 2 It's behavior therapy and and that's like what insurance will cover if you have

Speaker 1 insurance Mm-hmm. Yeah, to get to the root of it.
Mm-hmm. Yeah,

Speaker 2 I do think it is I think there's a huge financial gain ABA therapy and ASHA and I think it's all embedded together

Speaker 2 It does but I it's like anyone listening to this the number one thing is that like if you think of a human rights violation, right, you that non-speakers aren't allowed to go spell in schools to communicate, to participate socially,

Speaker 2 You know, because these are individuals with ideas and thoughts and career hopes and want to date and want to have friends and want to be involved.

Speaker 2 And yes, they can't control their bodies, but they can do, they can communicate.

Speaker 2 And to be leaving them out because, oh, we can't afford or we don't believe that you should have a communication partner in school, it's so, it's just mean. It's a human rights violation, I think.

Speaker 1 It's bizarre.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I mean, that's, yes, it's also very bizarre.

Speaker 1 And it's just, it makes sense when you connect it to insurance insurance and money in an industry. That's where it gets gross.

Speaker 1 They're against the competitors,

Speaker 1 which is the, which is probably truth. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Because if spelling, if you could be, if, if, if they'd say, hey, we will approve for spelling to be covered by insurance, every family could go do this.

Speaker 2 Right now, you have to spend thousands of dollars, often go to a conference, do an online thing. It's not cheap.
It's not affordable. It's not easily accessible.

Speaker 2 I mean, it can be depending on where you live, right? But like, but it's, it's not easy.

Speaker 2 That would be a lot more money going away from AVA therapy.

Speaker 1 Right, of course.

Speaker 1 God, it's always the root of it all.

Speaker 1 You get to it, there's someone who's profiting and doesn't want to stop profiting. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And a whole industry of a bunch of people working and

Speaker 1 yuck.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 you first

Speaker 1 recognize that there is some sort of an ability. When do you start expanding your idea of what children can and can't do?

Speaker 1 What they can and can't see? Like, when does it get to where you're at now?

Speaker 2 So.

Speaker 1 Like spiritual gifts. When do you start accepting those kind of things?

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think the corroboration of person after person after person was really helpful, you know?

Speaker 1 Do you remember like the first one that made you reconsider or consider?

Speaker 2 Okay, so the telepathy was definitely that okay, that became pretty quickly, and it was really funny to us how like the people working on this, like on my crew and my camera guy and stuff, my DP Michael would quickly, we were all kind of like, okay, this is happening.

Speaker 2 Like you'd get almost bored seeing it like because it became so common and so easy that like the telepathy quickly became unimpressive, which is

Speaker 2 so wild to say out loud. But then it would be

Speaker 2 like I remember Houston, who's a beloved individual,

Speaker 2 both in my life and also in the project and his mom as well.

Speaker 2 He had this relationship with stones where he could feel like the energy of crystals. And Katie, his mom, is an evangelical and didn't put much stock into any new age thing.

Speaker 2 And I think she went to get a massage and they gave her like a bag of crystals and stuff. And she was like, come on, and kind of put those in her, you know, bathroom upstairs behind one door.

Speaker 2 And, you know, and Houston came home from school, like

Speaker 2 ran into the primary bedroom and then went to the bathroom and found the rocks and like was so excited and put them in lines next to his bed and wanted to put his head next to them and he could feel the energy coming from these stones.

Speaker 2 And I always thought, okay, people believe in stones and maybe they matter because people believe in them, but like I didn't actually think they had energy over the healing gifts.

Speaker 2 And here's Houston going, feeling the stones. So that made me think, what?

Speaker 2 Okay, maybe there's something here. Enough individuals saying they could see auras around plants and animals and people.

Speaker 2 So that was something I started being like, okay, this is happening enough and enough that I believe that. And then the language was the next thing, and that was pretty remarkable.

Speaker 2 And I'm not saying every non-speaker has these gifts. I'm just saying the people that I've met that have been a part of this project, and there's an awful lot, do.

Speaker 2 And I think probably the gifts change per person, too, right?

Speaker 1 How often do you see the language thing?

Speaker 2 You know, I should send out another South

Speaker 2 questionnaire, but probably every five individuals. Wow.
You know?

Speaker 2 But that's a rough number, but it would be interesting to like survey.

Speaker 1 Are there any other data points that would indicate that someone would be more likely to have these language skills?

Speaker 1 Is there any factors about these individuals, like the differences in their conditions or the environment?

Speaker 1 Well,

Speaker 2 this is one thing that has been really remarkable, I think, especially since the Talap of the Apes came out, is how much belief and just like acceptance of these type of things matters for them to show themselves.

Speaker 2 Right. So, so I was talking to a parent the other day who's not in the telepathy tapes of someone I've met through this.

Speaker 2 And she said, Look, my son, after the telepathy tapes came out, you know, he's about 19, said, I need to come out to you. I can also read your mind,

Speaker 2 but just never felt comfortable saying it because didn't think his parents would respond well, right?

Speaker 2 And

Speaker 2 another teacher was telling me, Look, now that this has come out and like, I've realized this to be a truth in her clinic or classroom, she will do 10 minutes for thought sharing in the beginning of the day where they can all talk telepathy and hang out and she

Speaker 2 she said it's like the one of the only times when they're all quiet and they're just thought sharing and she said that you know now that the telepathy is out more and more parents are like being told this and you know accepting it because when i fell into this world before the telepathy tapes was out in the world almost every single parent or teacher i met was like thinking this was an individual miracle happening alone in their house they couldn't tell anyone even sometimes the spouses were fighting I met one parent once, not in the celebrity tapes, but I met her in the journey, and she said, My husband wants to take my child away because he thinks I've lost my mind by saying that this is happening.

Speaker 2 Oh, Jesus. So, you know, so now that it's out there, I think it's a, it's, it, it's just think about it.
If you have kids, right?

Speaker 2 Like, if you believe in your kids, I believe you, I believe in you, it makes a difference. The placebo effect.
Sure. We know placebo effect works.
If you believe in something, it makes a difference.

Speaker 2 So when you say to a non-speaking individual, like,

Speaker 2 I want to know all of you, I'm excited to know all of you, even if that means that nothing you can tell me is going to scare me or make you love you less, or, you know, I think that's a cool way to approach anyone, really.

Speaker 1 Yeah, certainly. And I think skepticism and cynicism is probably also contagious.
You probably feel that

Speaker 1 negative doubting energy,

Speaker 1 which is very suppressing.

Speaker 1 You know, just like, and if you're already non-verbal and you're already like like dealing with a lot of other stuff, like that negativity on top of it, you'd probably not want to even try. Right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah.
There's a shame. I think.

Speaker 1 Just negative feelings. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 What do you

Speaker 1 do you think this is something that you have?

Speaker 1 I think we all have it. I mean have you have you tried to encourage it in yourself or have you tried to explore it?

Speaker 1 Well

Speaker 1 because I would imagine if I was doing this work, I'd be like, let me see if I can do this. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And I,

Speaker 2 for sure. And I will,

Speaker 2 you know, I often pray at night and sometimes I'll also just beam out thoughts to some of the non-speakers of my life and hope they catch them, you know.

Speaker 2 And, you know, they're loving thoughts usually, of course.

Speaker 2 And then there's been a few times where

Speaker 2 I'll see a non-speaker that maybe I've come to know and love in a dream, and

Speaker 2 they're communicating something to me, and I'll write the parent in the morning and say, Can you ask so-and-so if they were trying to communicate X, Y, Z at all?

Speaker 2 Or, you know, were they trying to communicate with me last night?

Speaker 2 Is usually what I'll say, and they'll say, Oh, yeah, they wanted you to know blank, blank, blank, blank, blank, and it'll be what happens. So, but that's only happened in dreams, not in real life.

Speaker 2 I mean, dreams are real life, but yeah, so I think it, I think this, I think the more people are open to this and practicing it,

Speaker 2 it's there, you'll get there. And a lot of teachers are able to get it back two-way telepathy, where they can start hearing their students back.

Speaker 2 And they said, you know, there's a teacher, and I love this story because

Speaker 2 I heard her on a podcast, actually.

Speaker 2 And it was sent to me. I was like two years into my journey.
And this teacher thought no one else in the world was going through this.

Speaker 2 And she said, there's a student and he's telepathic and he can read my thoughts. And then all of a sudden, I started being able to hear him back.

Speaker 2 and I'd be cooking dinner, and I'd hear him, or and he would tell me things, all he'd just pop into my mind.

Speaker 2 And he was younger, so I had she had to set parameters to be like, You can't come into my mind all the time.

Speaker 2 But she said that in the classroom, then they started being able to teach, just to do the whole thing, the whole lesson, without talking.

Speaker 2 She'd ask him something in his head, he'd start typing it, she'd ask something else in his head, he'd start typing it. And that was something that

Speaker 2 like a lot of teachers have expressed that, or speech pathologists. And I've often wondered, why is it easier for the educator, you know, instead of the parent?

Speaker 2 And I think it's because parents put so much stuff on our kids, right?

Speaker 2 Like, if I'm watching my son play basketball and he's not boxing out and he's not doing this, I'm like, oh, God, oh, God, can't even watch, you know?

Speaker 2 But if it's someone else's kids, I'm like, oh, they're five, they're just learning. You know, I have no care if anyone else's kid is doing this.

Speaker 2 But so I think with our kids, we put all this baggage on them, even if we're not intending it. Like, the energy is so great.

Speaker 2 Where if it's just free and you're just wide open and you're just ready, I think some cool bond can often happen between

Speaker 2 anyone, but certainly, at least what my experience has been more educators than parents that goes into this two-way thing.

Speaker 1 This teacher, did they explain what the sensation was like, like hearing the words in their head? Like, how did they

Speaker 1 receive these things?

Speaker 2 So at this point, there's a lot of teachers, so I have like a little bit more data points on this. And for her, she was hearing like a voice in her head, very clear, you know, very clear.

Speaker 1 Was she hearing that that she interpreted as the child's voice? Was it a child's sound? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And that's what's so cool is for some of the individuals who've kind of gone through this will say,

Speaker 2 you just know it's their voice, even though they don't have a voice in the real world. Like you just know it's their energy imprint, right? Like this is their voice.

Speaker 2 But then I've met some teachers who are like, no, it comes in is like a visual, a visual package, if you will, right? Like, or

Speaker 2 One of the most beautiful things I heard from a mom in England, and I think her story is great because she knew this was going on for years, was scared to put it out there. She finally did.

Speaker 2 I'm not getting any younger, I'm putting it out. And then, of course, there was a lot of parents around England that were like, me, too, me, too, me, too.
This is happening to me.

Speaker 2 And she once explained it to me in the most beautiful way. She said,

Speaker 2 like, if you say the word with a word, thanksgiving, you've just said the word thanksgiving.

Speaker 2 If you send it telepathically, you receive the smells, you receive sleeping in your childhood bed again, like your crotchety uncle who's mad about that, like the game of the, you know, the sound of the football game, maybe snow,

Speaker 2 this person walking out with the pie, like the prayer you say, whatever it is, all the things that make your experience, that comes to you. And

Speaker 2 there's no misunderstanding what this means and feels and is, and it's this whole expansive idea. So

Speaker 2 I think she receives things that way.

Speaker 1 Wow.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's really cool.

Speaker 1 It's so cool, but it's also

Speaker 1 because of the cultural restrictions that we have

Speaker 1 put on the idea of telepathic communication, even while you're saying this, and I'm so fascinated and I believe it for sure. Part of me is like, shut up.
You know what I mean?

Speaker 1 It's like, that part of you is strong. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And I wonder if that part of us, unfortunately, because of all the charlatans and because of the cultural restrictions on just the concept of telepathy, I wonder how much of that holds us back.

Speaker 1 Because there's some things that you do know

Speaker 1 and you don't know why you know them, you know.

Speaker 1 And if you're a person who goes on instincts, you'll follow those instincts and you go, I have no idea how I knew that was the right thing to do, but it was. Yeah, yeah,

Speaker 2 yeah. I mean, look, I think

Speaker 2 one thing is experiencing something, you just believe it, like I said. And I think anyone who has engaged with

Speaker 2 walks into a room with a non-speaker going to do this, which from my experience has been quite a few,

Speaker 2 it's not hard to see. It's pretty easy to witness it.
And so, when you experience something over and over and over again, right, it's like,

Speaker 2 are all these parents and teachers all around the world and speech pathologists and principals and ministers and rabbis and everyone who's witnessed this lying?

Speaker 2 Did they all come in this great conspiracy to decide that we're going to trick the world? Or they're experiencing something and telling the truth. And the first one is out there.

Speaker 2 That's like the most impossible thing to imagine. The other thing I want to say, too, is like there's a motivation for someone who's a charlatan, right?

Speaker 2 You want to make money off of someone or something,

Speaker 2 especially when they're the most vulnerable, you're going to exploit this and et cetera, et cetera. Or it's for your own ego, your gain, or career, or whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, to date, because non-speakers have not been able to have the resources that they need to spell and engage in society, they've not been able to have a career yet.

Speaker 2 I mean, some have, but very few. Or make money on their own or, you know, be in the popular crowd or have some cool whatever.
And

Speaker 2 so, what's to gain? What is to gain? And it's also takes so much energy off and to spell out something.

Speaker 2 I can't imagine that you'd spell out a lie. I mean, there's nothing to gain in this entire population talking about this in silos all over the world.

Speaker 1 Right. Just what.
And also, very few people engage with non-verbal people. So, for this to be this

Speaker 1 very bizarre

Speaker 1 sort of strange phenomena that's happening with these people.

Speaker 1 You would have to be in that experience with those people to even be able to appreciate what's going on.

Speaker 1 I think most people,

Speaker 1 you know, we're so accustomed to talking, we're so accustomed to typing things out and communicating the way we do normally that we don't even think about what the experience is like for both the parents and the child,

Speaker 1 and that this is a completely different way of living. So, whatever these innate abilities that we may have, of course, they would be the ones who would have them.

Speaker 1 It kind of makes sense that they would be the ones that would be so tuned into us. Whereas us, we're sort of probably drowning those thoughts, even if they do exist.

Speaker 1 We're drowning them off with language, with cultural expectations, with social media, with news, and

Speaker 2 thoughts.

Speaker 1 Yeah, with everything. With all this, we're bombarded.
We're never even alone with our thoughts anymore.

Speaker 1 We're just bombarded constantly 24 7 and you know i mean this is the number one criticism about social media is that it's shaping your mind in a way that you're not even asking

Speaker 1 you don't really don't have agency over it you're just constantly being bombarded with data and that data whether you like it or not even if you're objective it's a it's changing the way you interface with the world these people aren't experiencing any of that This episode is brought to you by Visible.

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Speaker 2 I mean, I think they're probably experienced, like, I think they have so much input input coming in, you know, that it can be overwhelming. But, right, it's not informing their,

Speaker 1 yeah, they're not engaging. Yeah, they're not engaging.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's really

Speaker 2 remarkable, you know.

Speaker 1 Well, beyond, right? Beyond, because it changes the way we think about human beings. It changes

Speaker 1 what our potential is. I've always thought that it was an emerging aspect of human consciousness, but then as time has gone on,

Speaker 1 I start to think probably more than that. It probably has always been there.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 I mean,

Speaker 1 animals have weird abilities that we don't understand. Like the ability that birds have to navigate.
We don't understand what that is. We don't understand how they're doing that.

Speaker 1 But we know they do it.

Speaker 1 You know, and they

Speaker 1 have also

Speaker 1 there's some ability that animals have to read electrical signals, to read magnetic signals.

Speaker 1 What's going on there?

Speaker 2 What are they doing?

Speaker 2 You know, Rupert Sheldrake, again, who's in the project, he's the biologist from Cambridge. He talks about something called the mental field.

Speaker 2 And that was like a good handle for me to start to understand how this could be possible. And so by that,

Speaker 2 we know that fields can exist beyond something, and we take it as part of science. Like, we know the Earth has a gravitational field.
You can't see it. You know, it's there, but

Speaker 2 it's real. And we know that magnets have a magnetic field.

Speaker 2 You can't see it, but it's there. And so his theory is that our mind has a mental field that expands outside of the brain.
And this mental field can overlap with someone.

Speaker 2 And that a great example of the mental field, if you will, would be when you see like a murmur of birds or a school of fish and they're all turning at the exact same time.

Speaker 2 They don't bump into each other. They're not like having concussions left and right.

Speaker 1 The bird ones, the wild ones. It's wild.

Speaker 2 It's like they do it. It's almost like they have a collective concussion.

Speaker 1 The school of fish is essentially the same thing, but in the water. In the water.
And

Speaker 2 it's like they have one mind, right? It does feel like one mind. And so this beautiful idea,

Speaker 2 it's not, it's not, it's just out there. And one of the things I came across that I absolutely adored as well was that Mark Twain, he had, he coined this term mental telegraphy.

Speaker 2 And what he was responding to was kind of what we think of as phone telepathy, but that someone would write a letter.

Speaker 2 Let's say he wrote a letter to, I'm just going to make something up, like great Aunt Margaret, right? And

Speaker 2 he hadn't written to her in seven years and he postmarked it on March 2nd. Well, you know, maybe two weeks later, he got a letter from Aunt Margaret posted March 2nd.

Speaker 2 And that would happen a lot in the time of letter swapping. That at the same time, both people thought of each other.
They hadn't written to each other a long time.

Speaker 2 The letters were postmarked on the same day. You know what happened the same day.
And there was like such a concrete evidence there of, wow. And so he wrote a lot about that.

Speaker 2 He thought that was fascinating, you know? And like Upton Sinclair, who wrote The Jungle,

Speaker 2 you know, wonderful author. He wrote a book called Mental Radio where he was trying to do telepathy experiments with his wife and she would think of something or vice versa and they draw it out.

Speaker 2 And he had done this so many times that he talks about, this is real. I know this to be true because I've experimented it and heard I can thought share.

Speaker 2 And so, you know, it's like we have examples of this throughout recent history.

Speaker 2 But I definitely think if you go back to many native cultures, I mean, even the Vikings, the Druids, whoever, like, none of this would be shocking, right?

Speaker 2 They're not going to go try to prove this. This was part and parcel of being human.
And And I think it still is.

Speaker 2 But to your point, it's just been buried by the noise that we've filled up our lives with.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Like our feet aren't the same shape anymore because we don't walk barefoot.

Speaker 1 You know, our feet have atrophied and gotten withered and twisted and weak. And that's one of the reasons why people wear barefoot shoes, right? Yeah.
Because they want to engage their toes.

Speaker 1 And if you don't, your foot atrophies and becomes weird. It just makes sense that your mind or these abilities of consciousness would also atrophy because they're never used.

Speaker 1 Because it's so easy to communicate with words.

Speaker 1 And also, you're dealing with other people manipulating those words and trying to decipher whether or not this is true or not.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 And I mean, you know, energy, right? You did martial arts and stuff. So you understand, like, if someone's energy, how it can impact you.

Speaker 2 And I think that, like, most of us have some sense of like you walk into a room and someone's just like, oh, they're killing you. Or like if you're really, you know, I think energy is a real thing.

Speaker 2 Sure. But I think as far as like these gifts go or whatever, like telepathy,

Speaker 2 you know, we've all had that experience where someone's like, oh, I just knew the second they died. Like, I felt it.
Like, I fell to the ground in my apartment and I have no idea.

Speaker 2 And then I got the phone call.

Speaker 2 Or

Speaker 2 my aunt came to me in a dream last night and said, I love you, and I'm always here and whatever. And then the next day they get the phone call, their aunt died.

Speaker 2 And there's so many stories like that we hear just in everyday life, right? Sure. So again, like, it's just, if we sat back and really thought about this, this isn't wild.

Speaker 2 This is part of the human experience.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And the non-speakers are just the great skies, yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 1 It's really weird to look at it in reverse, though, for me, because, like I said, I did think it was an emerging aspect, but now I think it's probably not.

Speaker 1 It's probably something that's been buried by our technology or our progress.

Speaker 1 What we think is progress. It's easier to communicate with people with noises and saying things, but we're probably missing this thing that used to be a part of us, and it comes in these little blips.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Little weird, you know, waves, especially heightened anxiety or heightened, you know, anytime you're stimulated in some sort of a way, which makes sense why with psychedelic drugs, which dissolves the ego, you would have more of those.

Speaker 1 Right, right.

Speaker 1 This is...

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 So have you tried to expand your ability

Speaker 1 in any way?

Speaker 1 Have you tried to meditate and try to find where that is inside your consciousness?

Speaker 2 In the beginning, I think when I was starting to go into this, I was meditating a lot and doing a lot of stuff.

Speaker 2 But right now, I'm so focused on just getting the story out that it's like all my time is put on that. And I've kind of put my own stuff aside for a little bit here.

Speaker 2 But, I mean, meditation, I think that's the number one way to

Speaker 2 help open up anything mental, right? I mean, that's and meditation like 20, 30 years ago was considered kind of fringe and out there. And the idea that it could benefit you.

Speaker 2 Scientists looking into that were kind of like, ooh, that sky is kind of off.

Speaker 2 And now it's that those people were right.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 The response has been insane. Like the telepathy tapes shot to the top of the charts.
Like everybody was talking to me about it and sending it to me before I ever wound up listening.

Speaker 1 Is that it's got to be gratifying in some sort of a way that like at least people are responding to this and they're very excited about it.

Speaker 2 Yeah, I think so. And it's, I think, I mean, definitely it's gratifying.
But, you know, the story behind that is pretty remarkable.

Speaker 2 And that's, I think, one of the things that was most gratifying because I never intended to make a podcast. You know, I was trying to make a documentary of this.

Speaker 2 And then the documentary became so big that I was like, oh, maybe I have to make it as docu-series, like pitched it to a bunch of, you know,

Speaker 2 streamers and stuff. And I think people loved it.
They were like, oh, this is such a good pitch. And oh my gosh.
But like, ah, it doesn't fit our mandate. Like, what is it? It's not true crime.

Speaker 2 It's not this. It's not that.
And so everywhere we we pitched said no. Everywhere we pitched.

Speaker 2 And I remember going home and feeling devastated because I thought this was the most important news in the world. How could anyone like this is this needs to get out there?

Speaker 2 And thinking, it's the end of the road. I can't afford to go do a documentary of my own.
I can't do this and can't do that.

Speaker 2 And I was just like, you know, and I thought this could be a good podcast, but I'd never made one. So then it was sort of like, this will be my final pitch.

Speaker 2 Like, hopefully, someone will notice and then we can get the film funded.

Speaker 2 And so I made the podcast as just like a desperate, like, Hail Mary, like, someone listen to this, please, and fun documentary. And then it like went crazy.

Speaker 2 And it was what was so funny, too, is when I first started telling a lot of families and stuff about the podcast, they were like,

Speaker 2 Kai, I don't know if that's a great idea because just felling it so you have to see it to believe it, to know that they're really not touched and that they're really communicating.

Speaker 2 And telepathy, you have to see to believe. Like, none of this will work as a podcast.
And it was just that lightning bolt again, you know, like, no, no, no, this is it. This is it.

Speaker 2 You guys, like, this is it. Like, I just know it's going to be great.
And they were like,

Speaker 2 you know, and so the fact that it did what it did is just humbling and i think so well deserved for the non-speakers and those parents and teachers who were brave enough right to tell their stories finally yeah i'm glad you decided to follow that instinct because the podcast is the perfect way to do it because podcasts are easily shareable yeah so that's how things really get out there someone tells you about it you tell other people about it you go on a podcast tell people about your podcast and that's that's what starts it yeah i mean so and i think the medium too is so i never realized what a special medium it is because you're talking directly into someone's ears

Speaker 2 and you're just in their mind, like, and just can talk to them for a few hours. And this was a story that needed some real long,

Speaker 2 you know, exploration.

Speaker 1 Also, it's fascinating, and that's what you really want out of a podcast other than humor. You want it to be fascinating.
Yeah. You know, you want it to lock in and excite you.

Speaker 1 And that certainly does that.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 most people want to believe.

Speaker 1 You know? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And I would not have put my time and effort and money into this if it wasn't real.
I mean, it is real. And people don't have to take my word for it.

Speaker 2 Like, they could just go start working with a speller. And again, not all spellers, I think.
Maybe, I don't know. Who knows? But

Speaker 2 I think these are gifts are pretty easy to see if you start engaging with them. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Well, it certainly seems like it. So what so has the film started?

Speaker 2 Have you where are you at right now?

Speaker 2 So we, our first day of filming was yesterday, which is really exciting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 And so

Speaker 2 we, yeah, we're off to the races. We have five non-speaking members of our production team, which is awesome.
Oh, wow. So cool.

Speaker 2 Like, two are specializing in like working on graphics and depicting what things that they talk about look like, like the chat on the hill.

Speaker 2 I don't know if you've heard of this telepathic chat room where non-speakers hang out.

Speaker 2 We can come back to that.

Speaker 2 And like the realms where maybe they get information, or just even what it means to see auras or to see stuff like that.

Speaker 2 So we have two graphics kind of advisors that will be working with the graphics house on that stuff.

Speaker 2 We have a scientific advisor who's going to help us figure out how to best do the telepathy tapes with the scientists that we'll be working with.

Speaker 2 And then two story kind of consultants. So it's really cool to

Speaker 2 all five of these individuals, I believe it's the first paying job they've ever had. So that's kind of, it's just cool having them on our team.

Speaker 1 So what is this chat on the Hill?

Speaker 2 Okay,

Speaker 2 so

Speaker 2 that was one of the harder things to wrap my head around.

Speaker 2 When I first met Katie in Houston,

Speaker 2 Katie said, you know, Houston talks about this telepathic chat room where he can go hang out with his friends. He can kind of tune into this telepathic chat room.
And

Speaker 2 he teaches there too. And it's a place where they can commune and talk and encourage you to.

Speaker 1 He teaches in the telepathic chat room.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Houston's like really special he really is and he's and it and i think there are different roles that this person might talk about plant energy and this person might talk about this and i've heard this now from well let's just back up so how many people are in this telepathic chat room well i've i don't know but um

Speaker 2 but

Speaker 2 well i'll get to that answer let me just so because i think that's an interesting thing so houston started talking about this

Speaker 2 what he calls the talk on the hill which is this telepathic chat room and then i met his good friend john paul who's also kind of based in Atlanta.

Speaker 2 And John Paul would go up to his room and put four pillows on his head. And his mom was like, he's on the hill.

Speaker 2 And this is what he does to kind of get everything out, all the sounds of the house, so he can really concentrate and get there. And, you know, she said he really has like

Speaker 2 developed a beautiful relationship with his girlfriend on the hill. And that, and I'm like, what on earth?

Speaker 2 So I didn't know what to make of it, only I knew that it felt very real to these parents and these individuals. And people were talking about it in Atlanta.

Speaker 2 So I thought, okay, this might be an Atlanta thing, that these individuals are doing this. They don't have to be in the same room, the same zip code, that they can connect.

Speaker 2 And on the day I met John Paul,

Speaker 2 he was on the hill at one point. And I asked that question.
I said, well, how many people are on the hill right now? And I think he wrote like 4,000 something.

Speaker 1 And I was like, holy cow, it seems like a lot.

Speaker 2 And he's like, well, people are really excited about the documentary right now. So everyone's tuning in to find out what's happening with this.

Speaker 1 So I was like, whoa.

Speaker 2 And then

Speaker 2 I just buried that in my heart. I said, okay, this is something that is real in Atlanta.
And then I was talking to like the next big whoa. Again, telepathy tapes was not out yet.

Speaker 2 I met a minister in Arizona who had like the largest youth, like special needs youth ministry or something.

Speaker 2 And I was on Zoom with him because he was like, found out about the telepathy and found out about these gifts.

Speaker 2 And there was a person in his congregation who could predict the future and see things happening in other spaces in the world.

Speaker 2 And he was just, you know, I think we were connecting to be like, okay, yeah, you've seen this.

Speaker 2 Okay, let's talk about this and he was kind of going through his list of what he's witnessed with the individuals in his ministry and one of the things he said to me was I was on zoom the other day with another young individual another individual from Minnesota getting these two connect to connect and they started talking about something called the hill they go to this place called the hill have you ever heard about this and I almost fell out of my chair and then

Speaker 2 Maybe like a few months after that, I was talking to a teacher and she goes, you know, some of my students, have you ever heard about this? They talk about going to some place called the Hill.

Speaker 2 And one of them talks, says he goes there to learn about time travel. And the other one likes to talk about someone from Norway who talks about the bees and beekeeping and bee stuff.

Speaker 2 And at that point, I mean, my head is exploding.

Speaker 1 Just like, wait, it's like real?

Speaker 1 Like,

Speaker 2 geez, you know? And then there's a

Speaker 2 father in Israel who I have talked to a lot.

Speaker 2 lot about this over the years and he's kept really good track too of like how telepathy has been buried in the spelling community and in the education community and what's been going on and how teachers are getting fired so he's fascinating but one of the things he told me he's like oh yeah we have a separate hill in israel where a lot of the orthodox like jewish folks go and they have their own hill and then i and then i would get some emails and be like you know there's also a hill in arizona and florida like there's different hills so it's it's a mystery it's a magical mystery but

Speaker 2 they all call it the same thing Yeah, and I don't, and then I've also met, like, after the telepathy tapes came out, one family wrote me and said, hey, my son has said he has telepathy, no doubt there, but he can only do it with people in the room, but he's never been to the hill.

Speaker 2 How does he get to the hill? And I thought, I don't know, I guess ask another non-speaker who maybe can teach you how to like dial into the right frequency.

Speaker 2 You know, I'm not exactly sure how that works, but

Speaker 2 it's really,

Speaker 2 it's awesome, you know.

Speaker 1 Now, is there one hill or is there many hills?

Speaker 2 I think there's a few hills.

Speaker 1 And have they verified that people who are communicating in this hill are actually communicating with these individuals?

Speaker 2 Yeah, and in fact, that's one of the storylines in the film that I'm really excited about. Like one of the subjects is a young girl who's always felt pretty isolated.

Speaker 2 You know, it's hard sometimes to make friends if you're not able to communicate at school or whatever. So,

Speaker 2 but she was bringing up names and has brought up names that her mom was like,

Speaker 2 you know, they're not in her school. They're not in our periphery.
They're not in any of our social stuff.

Speaker 2 And then once the telepathy tapes came out, these Facebook groups sprang up of families that were kind of going through this stuff.

Speaker 2 And in that process, she found, I think, like four of these individuals that her daughter was saying she was really good friends with on the hill.

Speaker 1 And they also say they go to the hill. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And so we've like corroborated all these points in this girl's life.

Speaker 1 Have you tried to cooperate actual distribution of information, actual communication? Mm-hmm. Yeah.
You've done that? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Speaker 2 It's yeah. I mean, that's, of of course, like, you have to imagine for everyone in this world, all the families that I'm close to and teachers and therapists and stuff,

Speaker 2 it's still remarkable. So anytime someone says something, we will try to validate it.
Like, this person just said they saw this person on the hill. Can you

Speaker 2 validate they were there? And then, oh my gosh, yes.

Speaker 2 What did they talk about? This was said, and this was said. Hey, this person says that person is on the hill and talking about blank.

Speaker 2 Oh, yeah, I can verify that that person teaches about that on the hill. So,

Speaker 2 like, it's not like anyone is taking any of this just in stride.

Speaker 2 Like, we just, you know, I think there's still that human nature, like you were talking about, that, like, even the parents and teachers, and me and the people on the front lines of this are still always trying to validate it.

Speaker 1 Like, this happened.

Speaker 2 Was that true? Did you get that same thing? And then there's that moment of, like, oh my God, like, that's happening with all of us all the time, too. That mind-blowing,

Speaker 2 wow, that just, you know, bore out. It's remarkable when it happens.

Speaker 1 That the hill thing is next level. It's next level.
And why is it the hill? Why do they call it the hill universally?

Speaker 2 Well, Houston named it, the chat on the hill. He named it.

Speaker 1 How do the other kids name it? I think they're all saying it as well, though, right? They're all saying the same term.

Speaker 2 Yeah, but I mean, just like I, you know, someone named this cup and we're all calling it cup, right? I think like it just spreads.

Speaker 1 So you think that child, Houston, he named it

Speaker 1 and then everybody else accepted that name? Yeah. He didn't hear it from someone else?

Speaker 2 I mean, he might have. But that's the question.

Speaker 1 Like, what is the name? Like, why on the hill?

Speaker 2 Well, I've asked people that, and one individual is like, it just feels more like a hill of thoughts, like, just this, like, mound of just, like, thoughts and energy and, like, being. And so.

Speaker 1 I wonder what they're seeing.

Speaker 2 Well, we're working on that for the film. That's, like, why we have these two graphics non-speaker advisors so they can work to make us understand what it looks like to them.

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Speaker 2 And then once actually once the telepathy tapes was done, I started releasing something called the Talk Tracks where we like keep going with answering some of the questions. And one of them was this

Speaker 2 a young man who reached out after episode two and he's like, I want to help or volunteer for you. And I was like, go work with some non-speakers.
That's going to be the best thing in the world.

Speaker 2 And he witnessed the telepathy right away. He witnessed a few other things.
And he ends up in the first Talk Tracks episode, getting to the hill.

Speaker 2 And his story is really beautiful as to how, as a neurotypical man, he was able to do that. But people need to listen to it because it's really cool.

Speaker 1 So he figured out how to get to the hill.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah. And what does he describe it as?

Speaker 2 Well, he said it's divinely protected, that there seems to be.

Speaker 1 Divinely.

Speaker 2 There seems to be like some sort of guide there that like you can't just go in. Like Halliburton can't go rip it off, you know?

Speaker 2 Like there's like, like, like, it seems to be guarded, and that only people with good intentions can go. And I think, I mean, my, I hope people don't try to start going there.
I really, really don't.

Speaker 2 This is non-spin-off. I know.
It's like one of the pains, actually, for me, is that, like, oh, and putting this out there, like, but I do think the non-speakers are in charge there.

Speaker 2 It's their space, it's a beautiful space. And, and, and I don't think anyone can just get let in.
You have to really be open.

Speaker 2 Open, but not just, but have a good, good intention.

Speaker 1 Right, completely pure.

Speaker 2 Pureness and love are a big part of this.

Speaker 1 And this person who's typical, a regular person, got in there.

Speaker 1 Had they had any experience in the past with any form of telepathy before this?

Speaker 2 Well, the reason his story is so beautiful, so again, he's in episode one of the talk tracks.

Speaker 2 And what happened is he had, he was diagnosed with a really rare like autoimmune disease and then like stage four cancer. And he

Speaker 2 kind of realized like if I need need to, I need to save my life, I'm going to die if I don't learn to like think, control my thoughts. And, and he was able to cure himself.

Speaker 2 And he sent me scans, and the cancer is almost all gone. But I think that that attention to thought and how thought can change your world and dictate what happens in your world really

Speaker 2 did something in his brain that allowed him to live in that mental space.

Speaker 2 And I think that helped him.

Speaker 2 I think that really helped him get to the hill. I mean, he talks about more about how he got there.

Speaker 2 And it took a few times. And for him, it was all audible.
It felt like static and certain voices. But then he said he did a few tests.
Like, there was

Speaker 2 one of the students he works with. He's like, I knew exactly who it was.
And I could hear their voice. I just knew it was their voice, even though I've never heard their voice.

Speaker 2 But I just knew it was their energy. I just knew it was them.
And he's like, so I gave a test and I said, I'm going to tell you this person's name and this person's name and this person's name.

Speaker 2 And, you know, gave them kind of a bunch of information. And I said, when I see you next, you need to tell me this stuff.

Speaker 2 And then, when he saw that person next, they they wrote it, they spelled it out for him. Whoa, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 So, I do think the people

Speaker 2 experimenting with this have their own deep desire to get it right and try to validate stuff, you know.

Speaker 2 It's hard just to take on face value. How do you know if it's real or if it's in your own mind?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 1 But the weird thing is, like, if this does, I mean, I'm sure you've opened up a lot of people's minds to this. And again, if this expands and then we all

Speaker 1 agree that this is a thing and that this is a possible thing, and then people start trying to

Speaker 1 figure out what it is and develop methods to try to tap into that, this could be a profound change

Speaker 1 in just society as a whole. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah, and I think the thing I hear the most, right, is people are afraid of their thoughts being out there.

Speaker 1 But what's kind of cool is what's going on in your head that you're so worried about yourself. Exactly.
Well, that's how about cleaning your brain out. Exactly.

Speaker 2 Clean your brain out.

Speaker 1 You're not going to be afraid of that, right? Yeah. What's going on in your head that you don't want everybody to know?

Speaker 2 Totally.

Speaker 1 Like, what are your terrible thoughts?

Speaker 2 It's interesting. When people say that, I do.
Because,

Speaker 2 I mean, we all have certain stuff that, like, who cares if someone knows that thought all happens to us, right?

Speaker 2 Like, you're worried about having something in your teeth or something, or like you, you know, accidentally pass gas and whatever. Like, I mean, that type of stuff I think, who cares?

Speaker 2 like, that's just being human, right? But when people are like that terrified, it's like, what the hell is going on with you?

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think it's the concept of it, too. And also, the concept, I think there's a thought that if someone could read your mind, that you're more vulnerable, that you can't protect yourself.

Speaker 1 Like, you know, like if you're like, oh, this person's creepy, let me get away from them. Oh, you think I'm creepy? You know, like that kind of thing.

Speaker 1 Like, that you won't be able to just avoid people.

Speaker 2 I do think you have some control over it, though. And again, I can only go off of what I've heard from others.
But like

Speaker 2 one of the teachers who's been just, she's been such an advocate and fighter in this world for years trying to point to this.

Speaker 2 And she said the first experience she ever had around, maybe not the first, but one of the most cementing experiences was she was going to go visit a former student in class.

Speaker 2 And the night before, this is wild. The night before, she went out and picked like Swedish fish and, you know, some donuts and you know, I forgot what else, pretzels or something.

Speaker 2 And so she comes in to give him his favorite snacks and forgot them in the car. But she went and she sat with him and talked with him.

Speaker 2 And right before she was leaving the classroom, he took out a pen and drew like a donut, a fish, you know, and kind of drew the things that she, and it like rattles her to her core.

Speaker 2 Like she, he knew what she was thinking the night before. And now that he's,

Speaker 2 you know, graduated, she still works with him just on a volunteer basis for the sheer joy of just being with him. And she asked him years later, how did you do that?

Speaker 2 and and and he like were you remote viewing through me and how did you know at that moment and he's like well once you were thinking of me that was like my invitation to come in like i won't just crash into someone's thoughts it's like you i have to be kind of invited in by like you know like the the thought so so i do think that there's a way to kind of control it and i i know that the teacher that was having the student jump into her brain a lot um the the younger man she said like you need to stop that like if i will invite you in when i want you but you can't can't just come into my mind whenever that's not appropriate.

Speaker 1 You know,

Speaker 2 and

Speaker 2 so I think every individual is an individual, right? I mean, how this stuff works and is probably different for each person, but I don't necessarily think,

Speaker 2 you know, what many spellers have told me is like good, good energy allows them to swap thoughts, like good juju allows them to do that.

Speaker 2 Being invited in, being open to it, it doesn't feel like they can just go into like, you know, the person running for Senate's thoughts and be like, ha ha, actually, you didn't fund the, you know, right.

Speaker 1 The problem is, like, what if people get really good at that? Like, what if it expands and then people are just entering into your thoughts all the time?

Speaker 1 I think technologically that's going to happen anyway. Yeah.
You know, it's one of the things that Elon has said about this Neuralink device that they're enabling.

Speaker 1 He said you're going to be able to talk without words. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But here's the thing, too, right? It's like, again, I think think most,

Speaker 2 almost every non-speaker I've met, their concern is love, unity, right?

Speaker 2 And so if your thoughts are other people and your thoughts are loving and about unity, it's not scary then for other people to be reading your thoughts.

Speaker 2 You're going to be caring about other people, hopefully.

Speaker 1 The real thought, the real scary thing is that there are a lot of people out there in this world that do not have thoughts of love and unity.

Speaker 1 They're damaged, hurtful, evil people. Yep.
And they want to destroy everything around them. Yep.
And that those people could acquire this ability. But would they be able to? I don't know.

Speaker 1 This is the thing. It's like, has there been any evidence that evil people have been able to acquire this ability?

Speaker 2 I would say what I have found in even talking to scientists about this, that the baseline for this is love. There's a wonderful neuroscientist named Julia Mossbridge, and she has studied precognition.

Speaker 2 And one of the things she does in these precognition tests is be like, how much unconditional love do you feel for yourself, for other people, for the device you're taking this test on.

Speaker 2 And the more people feel love, the better better they do.

Speaker 2 And one of the things that I've heard from so many non-speakers with disabilities is that the baseline is love.

Speaker 2 That love, love, love is like the thing that unlocks this stuff.

Speaker 1 What do they describe love as?

Speaker 2 Anything that unifies.

Speaker 2 I've heard that over and over again. What's love? It's anything that unifies.

Speaker 1 Ah, wow.

Speaker 1 Huh.

Speaker 2 Isn't that the best description of love ever?

Speaker 1 It is. It's a really good description.

Speaker 2 So, and

Speaker 2 that was, yeah, very specific. Anything that unifies.

Speaker 1 So it's almost like they're tapping into some laws of the universe or laws of reality

Speaker 1 that we kind of know by trial and error,

Speaker 1 but we don't.

Speaker 1 We don't. I mean,

Speaker 1 all you need is love.

Speaker 1 You know, this is always.

Speaker 1 Love is a ubiquitous concept. It's like something that everybody always agrees is very important to life and happiness.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 But we don't necessarily practice that culturally. Yeah.
Or as a society.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, but you go back to like the all the ancient religious teachers and thoughts, right? So much of it's about love and unity, and we're all one.

Speaker 2 And you might not realize this, but we're all one. And, you know, it's been interesting.
Like. There's a big question mark right now on how to do these tests and how to prove it.

Speaker 2 And when I brought that up to a few non-speakers, one of the questions is like, why do you need to prove this with instruments? Like, the biggest spiritual gift, the most fascinating one, is love.

Speaker 2 That will cause someone to jump into choppy waters and save someone and risk their own life. It's had mothers have so much adrenaline they could lift up a car and save their baby.

Speaker 2 Like, love is the superpower. Right.
And it's like, that's, it's just, it's true. And they're like, why aren't you trying to measure love?

Speaker 2 And it's like, okay, good point. But still, people want to measure telepathy.
And then there brings up the question of like, of,

Speaker 2 okay, well, is it best to do it like in a lab situation that can be really stressful, that can be filled with a lot of skeptical people and throwing that energy at you?

Speaker 2 Or is it better just to go into your environment, take off their lab coat, learn to spell, go check this out?

Speaker 2 And you think of like really good scientists like Jane Goodall, who, when she wanted to understand like a culture of, you know, how the chimps were working, she didn't bring them into her lab.

Speaker 2 She went and like lived in the jungle for months.

Speaker 2 You know, or you want to go look at the lightning bugs that light up in unison in Vietnam. I don't know if that's going to work out for you.

Speaker 2 If you bring them back to Berkeley and put them in a building, you probably have to go sit in the jungle and wait for them to light up in unison. So it's like,

Speaker 2 is it smart to be trying to test this stuff in our way, in our labs? Or is it better to be like, I'm going to go chill out with you in your living room and see how this works?

Speaker 1 Right. The reason why to test it with instruments is for skeptics.
Right. So once we've all agreed that this is an actual phenomenon, this is a real thing, whatever this is, this is real.

Speaker 1 The best way to test it is really with consciousness. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And, you know, I think about this a lot, like the skeptics, because again, like I've said, the families and teachers, the people who, people are like, let's just move the science forward.

Speaker 2 We know what's happening. We know, now we need to know how, not why, right? And I've thought about like how skeptics can hold back that research and science.

Speaker 2 And like, how much time do you give to them versus like just move on without them? And, and I was thinking about in the term of like in the olden days, right?

Speaker 2 Like of a Voyager was going out and to discover new worlds and people, you can't go find something. The earth is flat and you're going to fall off of it, or out there is the blah, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2 And someone comes back and is like, discovered Iceland, let's say. And it's like, oh my gosh, you would not believe it.

Speaker 2 Like, geysers are coming out of the earth, and there's blackstone beaches, and black sand beaches, and northern light, you know, whatever they're explaining.

Speaker 2 And they come back, and some people will be like, wow, let's go explore it and find out more and, you know, draw things of it.

Speaker 2 And some people might be like, don't go with them, don't go, don't even try it. They're making it up.
It's not real. That couldn't exist.
You're going to die if you go.

Speaker 2 And I feel like the scientists or the skeptics now are those people on the shore being like there is no Iceland don't go look and you're gonna blah blah blah and it's like that's such a it's such a a weight to to to forwarding thought and research and

Speaker 1 this is such a cool exciting new frontier yes and um well the thing is it's like there's levels of skeptics there's people that are just objective and they're like i need data i need to see something and then there's people that it doesn't matter what they see they're never going to believe right and those are the weird ones because there's a lot of people out there that are self-professed skeptics.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Those are the ones that are the problem.
Yeah. Like they call themselves skeptics.
Right. Okay.
Right. Well, how about just be objective? Right.
Well, don't just be skeptical. Right.

Speaker 1 Because if you're completely skeptical and you're always looking for a negative, you're you're, you know, you're going to be biased by your own preconceived notions.

Speaker 2 Right. I mean, if you're if you're only skeptical, you're a closed-minded believer.

Speaker 2 You are. You're not open-minded.
You're as dogmatic as like

Speaker 2 the next person who just believes their beliefs and won't look any further. This is it.
Like, that's not skeptical. Well, that's atheists.

Speaker 1 Right. And a lot of, for a lot of

Speaker 1 the, well, I mean, there's different kinds of atheists, too. There's some that I would just, I'd say they're self-professed atheists, but they're really more agnostic than anything.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. But I would say, I mean, I would say I'm skeptical.
Every time I hear something new, I'm like, can it be? That's going to be. Like, we got to go test this.
I don't know.

Speaker 2 We got to to find, okay, we got to test it four or five more times. But, like, be an open-minded skeptic.

Speaker 1 Like, that is what I'm saying. I don't think that's skeptical.
That's just objective. Right.
Like, because you hear about something completely novel and you're like, okay, what is it? What is that?

Speaker 1 Is this bullshit? Because you know bullshit. Bullshit's real.
It's a real thing. Like, that's why skeptics are important.
Or at least being skeptical is important because

Speaker 1 there are people that tell you, if you join my cult, you will experience bliss and happiness.

Speaker 1 Totally true. We all give up our money to the guru and he has sex with all of us, but it's great.
Like, what? Right. Totally.
So, skepticism is important.

Speaker 2 It is important.

Speaker 1 It keeps you from getting hoodwinked.

Speaker 2 It does. I mean, yes.
Open-minded skeptical.

Speaker 1 Right, but this is the problem with not having the ability to read minds, right? Is that people can deceive you and you can't really tell. And some people are terrible at it for some reason.

Speaker 1 Like, some people just fall in line with the wrong crowd over and over and over again, and they never get it right.

Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah, that's so true.

Speaker 1 You have to be skeptical. Yeah.
Or you have to be able to read people. Yeah.
And what is reading people, though, right?

Speaker 1 Like, there's people that I've met that, like, right away, I'm like, this person's broken. I got to get the fuck away from him.

Speaker 1 There's a famous story that with my friend Brian, Brian Callant, who's a hilarious comedian who always has the worst friends. Always.

Speaker 1 And one time he showed up at this show that we were doing together with this gal that he was dating. And I met her for five seconds, and I, and he'd always had the worst girlfriends.

Speaker 1 They're always just disasters.

Speaker 1 I go, get rid of this one, please. I go, trust me, you got to move.
He's like, what are you talking about? I go, dude, she's crazy. This one's broken.
And he's like, no, no, no.

Speaker 1 I go, dude, I am telling you right now. Turned out she's a meth head.
He didn't know. She winded up being a prostitute.

Speaker 1 Like, it was off the charts, but she was pretty, and he just thought she was friendly to him. And so she was fine.
And I read her right away. I'm like, oh, everything's wrong here.

Speaker 1 And he's like, how did you do that? And I'm like, I don't know. I just knew right away, you got to get away from her.

Speaker 1 And

Speaker 1 he eventually one day ran into her after they had broken up. She was street walking.
What? Yeah. Like that crazy.
Yeah. Poor thing.
Poor thing. Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it was like, I was like, that one's going to drag you down. Like, get out of there.
Yeah. But I knew.
I don't know how I knew.

Speaker 1 I mean, it was a simple exchange. Like, hi, nice to meet you.
Nice to meet you too.

Speaker 1 The fuck's going on here? It's like, all my spidey senses were going off. Yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 1 and it's not normal that's not normal that's not every day it's not like everybody i meet like some people i meet i'm like something's on right something yeah

Speaker 1 you have to be able to go on some kind of instinct we all know and a lot of it is sort of pattern recognition yeah a lot of it is prior experiences with similar the way similar people engage with you right and you're like oh i've seen this before yes like this is a con man oh i've seen this before this is a this and this is a that.

Speaker 1 Yes. But sometimes, sometimes it's just like, this is a bad person.
Yes. Or this one's broken.
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Absolutely. So, yes, I think having some degree of skepticism can be good.
Yeah. Emotional intelligence can be good.
I think it's objectivity.

Speaker 1 Objectivity. Yeah.
Objectivity.

Speaker 1 To recognize that people that are deceptive are real. You know, and there's people that have ulterior motives.
And these

Speaker 1 ulterior motives, you might not understand. And you got to be able to

Speaker 1 be able to throw everything through a filter. And unfortunately, until we can read minds, you're kind of going on these, like, did you hear that? I think I heard something.

Speaker 1 You know, it's like, that's really what it's like. Like, when you meet a person, it's like, there's something.

Speaker 1 I don't know. Are you being paranoid? I don't know.

Speaker 1 You know. Right.
And then you can convince yourself that you are being paranoid when you actually, you're not. You're actually accurate.
Yeah. And you're like, oh, you're being silly.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 No, you're not being silly. You should have followed your initial instincts.

Speaker 2 Right, exactly. And I think that's what has happened with like materialism being such a

Speaker 2 for years is that anyone who believed in anything would be made to feel silly, right? Oh, you're so gullible or you're not smart. Like intellectual people certainly don't believe in ghosts or God or

Speaker 2 whatever.

Speaker 1 Put anything in there that you can't measure.

Speaker 1 Right. Yeah, exactly.
The secret.

Speaker 2 And so that's been effective. No one wants to be ridiculed and dismissed and made to feel silly.
I mean, even editing editing the podcast, I was so certain.

Speaker 2 I'm like, okay, episodes one through four, there's a lot of science. This is great.

Speaker 2 The one that took me weeks, like I was in turmoil over, was having to put out into the world that the teachers were hearing telepathy back. Because I'm like, no one's going to believe this.

Speaker 2 This feels so hard. But it's like, you can't censor it.
This is what people's experiences. And the whole point was to put out the voices of people who've been completely dismissed and ignored.

Speaker 1 And also, if love is unifying, the love of a teacher and a student is absolutely real.

Speaker 1 And it's a special bond, especially really good teachers. Oh, my God.
Really good educators have this spec because they really genuinely just want to help.

Speaker 1 And when someone's a genuine, and you're a child that's vulnerable and confused by the world around you, and you're non-verbal, and there's someone with genuine love for you. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Like, it kind of makes sense that those would be the people that bridge the gap.

Speaker 2 It was interesting because I saw my best friend for college this morning and her husband was there and he was like, why is it so many women in the podcast that have telepathy? Like, can dads do it?

Speaker 2 And whatever. And I was like, in fact, the first person Dr.
Powell tested the dyslepathy test with, this girl was adopted and she had the best telepathic bond with her father.

Speaker 2 And I know a young man in Israel whose best telepathic bond is with his father.

Speaker 2 And another, you know, so yes, it does happen with dads, but I think there's more women who go into teaching and more women that do caregiving.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And so that's probably why it looks like more women, but I don't think it's like a gender, gendered thing that mostly women have this.

Speaker 1 You know, I think it's whoever is in that like loving open yeah I think men are generally more inclined towards brutish thinking you know and and ego and like silly ways of viewing the world and then also preoccupied by their status in life and what that means to you know them and their worth as an individual and all that stuff is a massive impediment yeah to any sort of like real love yeah because you're just so self-focused yeah that's very

Speaker 1 a male trait, especially in this capitalism society where you're constantly trying to achieve a higher level of status. Yeah.
And no one's satisfied, including billionaires. Yeah, right.

Speaker 1 Yeah, which is just the nuttiest thing of all time. It's like, what is the point? You won the game.
I know.

Speaker 1 Spread it out, man. Time is over.

Speaker 1 You should, like, you have this crazy opportunity with all this money.

Speaker 2 To help so many people and lift up like all of America.

Speaker 1 Also, why are you still just chasing numbers

Speaker 1 in a ledger? Because that's what you're doing.

Speaker 1 You've got lost in this weird game.

Speaker 2 I actually cannot comprehend that. I cannot comprehend that.

Speaker 1 I wonder if you could if you were super wealthy. Maybe.

Speaker 1 And if you went down that path. The thing is, one thing would be if you were super wealthy by some divine intervention or someone just gives you money.
Right.

Speaker 1 You know, like some crazy billionaire who's like a telepathy tapes fan. They're dying.
And on their will, they say, say, listen, Kai, you seem cool. I'm going to give you $2 billion.

Speaker 1 Like, what are you going to do with it? Yeah, it's different. But if you went and tried to earn it, and so your whole life, you were focused on these achievements.

Speaker 1 Like, I want to have this and a that, and I want to have, I want to be able, I want to be important.

Speaker 1 I want to be able to influence political parties, and I want to be able to fly in my private jet, and I want an island. You know, you get crazy.
Yeah. And then you never have enough because

Speaker 1 yeah, and then you're around people. Like we were talking the other day.

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Speaker 1 Also, my friend Brian has a friend who's worth like $3 billion, and he feels poor because he hangs out with these guys that are worth $50 billion.

Speaker 1 I'm like, that's so crazy. But that's the world that you live in when you're only thinking about numbers on a ledger.

Speaker 1 you've gotten caught playing a game right you're you're playing poker you have chips you know you're this is all just quantifiable numbers well none of it matters too because who cares like you're just here's the real number you got a hundred years right if you're lucky right that's the real number yeah and if you're 60 and you're

Speaker 2 right yeah you're almost at the end buddy right like what are you doing well and i just i always think about like the impact you're gonna leave behind like what's your legacy like you had a big boat i mean who cares about that right what does that mean?

Speaker 1 You know, are you going to be the person? Well, when he died, he had so many things. I aspire to be like William.
Right. Yeah.
I mean, there's a lot of people that are like that.

Speaker 1 And they think about old, dead, rich people being, boy, he really nailed it. He killed the game.
You know, and that's, you know, that's the thing that they have focused on, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 This is the problem with financial institutions because they're like, if all you're doing is trying to acquire more money, well, that's your game. And your game is just do that.

Speaker 1 And then as you get get bigger you eventually reach a point where like hey hey hey hey hey you kind of control everything like you control natural resources you control land you control building housing transportation you have everything this is

Speaker 1 not good for everybody else it's not good for everybody else to for one entity to have so much power and only be concentrating on numbers right yeah yeah

Speaker 2 i don't know where that comes from i mean i guess if you grow up really rich maybe that's it or maybe if you grew up without anything anything.

Speaker 1 It's a competition. It's a subversion of what it's initially supposed to be.
It's like when you put mandates on officers

Speaker 1 achieving a certain amount of arrests in a month. Right.
Or even arrests in general, right? Or prosecutors, right? What is a prosecutor's goal? To win.

Speaker 1 There's the competition. The competition is: I provide evidence that this person is guilty.
The defense provides evidence that he is in fact innocent.

Speaker 1 And we sort it out.

Speaker 1 And if you're just trying to win the game, well, then you're a corrupt prosecutor because then you withhold evidence that might exonerate that person or you don't allow DNA or you don't.

Speaker 1 Yes. And there's a lot of that.
I mean, I work with a guy named Josh Dubin, who's a friend of mine, who's his whole thing is freeing people that are unjustly accused. I love that.

Speaker 1 And he's, just because of this podcast, a bunch of people are free right now. Wow.

Speaker 1 And the shocking stories that you hear about corrupt prosecutors where these guys get caught, and it turns out there's hundreds of people rotting away in a cage that are innocent because of this one corrupt person.

Speaker 1 And because they played this game of just trying to win. Yeah.
You know, and this is the same game. It's the same game of...
acquiring numbers, whatever you're trying to do.

Speaker 1 If that is what your game is, your game is just numbers.

Speaker 2 I mean, that just makes me wonder if people believe there was more, right?

Speaker 2 Like, if it wasn't just like, you've got this one shot and you're just gun here and like tackle the numbers and be super rich and whatever, like, would making a difference and make because it does feel like, yay, oh, Pollyanna, like, we're going to just, you know, yay, love each other.

Speaker 2 But, like, but if you really believe that there was something more, right?

Speaker 2 That, like, you had a higher purpose here, that you were more than just your body, I think, I mean, I think if you believe that to some degree, you're going to act differently. Yeah.

Speaker 2 You're more focused on difference than acquiring numbers of money.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it's just hard to get through people that are completely lost and obsessed. Yeah.
You know, when someone is completely like, say, a gambling addict, for instance, they're very hard to get to.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Because they're completely lost and obsessed with this thing that they become addicted to, which is all numbers.
Right. Gambling is just all thrills and wins and losses and numbers.

Speaker 1 It's all just, I bet 100,000 on the game. And I'm like, okay, I think I got five points on the spread.

Speaker 1 They cover the spread, then I win, and then I'm out of the hole. And then it's this roller coaster rot.

Speaker 1 And so it's very difficult to get to those people that are lost in whatever the game they're playing is, whether the game is gambling addiction or financial addiction, whatever it is.

Speaker 1 If you're lost in a game, it's very hard to get to those people, especially if they don't have love in their life.

Speaker 1 And so if all of their status is acquired by numbers, by achieving this and pulling up in the brand new Mercedes and wearing the fine suit and having the expensive watch or whatever it is that your thing is that you want to show up with.

Speaker 1 And there's in this world,

Speaker 1 especially today, there's all

Speaker 1 the lures and trappings to pull you into that. And you can never get enough.

Speaker 1 You can get hand purchased, I mean, hand created this and

Speaker 1 rare that and a limited edition that. Oh, did you get the new one? Oh, and then, you know, you're lost.

Speaker 2 It's just, yeah, it just doesn't fill you up. I think it empties you out more, really, in the end.

Speaker 1 Right. But what it does do, oddly, is it promotes technological innovation.

Speaker 1 So keeping up with the Joneses and materialism, one purpose that it does serve, oddly, is this constant push towards newer and better things, which I think is also part of the purpose of human life in some sort of a strange way, is that we are pursuing technological innovation above and beyond everything.

Speaker 1 If you could see us objectively, if you could see us outside of culture, outside of language, if you were an alien race and you're observing this weird species, what does it do?

Speaker 1 Well, it keeps making better stuff.

Speaker 1 That's what it does. It keeps making better stuff.
It puts all of its resources into making better stuff, and it's obsessed with acquiring better stuff, even though it has a finite lifespan.

Speaker 1 It never recognizes, or rarely. It's an odd and beautiful thing when someone recognizes they have a finite life.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 I was just thinking about that, what what you were saying, and then I was thinking, God, but then every four years, the aliens would be like, oh, but then they pass a torch on the world and they go and they compete in games.

Speaker 1 And the whole,

Speaker 2 and for like one small two-week period, they're all playing these games against each other. And then they like put the torch out and go home and put medals around their lives.

Speaker 1 That's averted by numbers. Yeah, it is.
Because the people that are playing the game, who are where everybody wants to see them, they don't get any of the money.

Speaker 1 The money is all by the commercials and advertising and networks.

Speaker 1 Networks Networks in the organization where they profit in the tune of billions of dollars and literally pay zero to the athletes, which is

Speaker 1 another disgusting subversion of this whole thing. So the purity is in the athletes, especially if you're competing in a game that has no financial future.

Speaker 1 If you're the world curling champion or whatever, whatever it is,

Speaker 1 some goofy-ass fucking Olympics play.

Speaker 1 There's no up.

Speaker 1 You're just trying to be the best at this thing.

Speaker 2 And I think if you can

Speaker 2 achieve something that makes you feel really good about yourself, I think there is a worth in that to seem beautiful. Oh, yeah.
But and that's like where sports can come in, right?

Speaker 2 That like the underdog can win and you can work together and blah, blah, blah. Like that's where stuff is.
I think that's like really beautiful. You create something, that's beautiful.

Speaker 2 But yeah, just buying something is not cool.

Speaker 2 I mean, that's right. I mean, just buy, what does that do? That's not cool.
Like creating something is cool. Achieving something is cool.

Speaker 1 It's also one of the weirdest attractions. Yeah.
Attractance about social media. Yeah.
Is what the stuff that people are showing you they have. I know.

Speaker 1 You know, which is like, you can get a lot of followers by having great stuff. And like, look at my stuff.
Look at my house. Look at my car.
Look at my jet. Yeah.
And it's like, the people go, wow.

Speaker 1 And you see, like, millions and millions of likes on these videos.

Speaker 2 It's really, because kids, like, they love the YouTube videos now. Like, my son will watch like Hot Wheels, like, people being like, this new Hot Wheels.

Speaker 1 It goes,

Speaker 2 and then you want to make these Hot Wheels things. And I'm like, what is happening right now? That you're like basically doing an ad for Hot Wheels, you know?

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 It's just, like, I would have never wanted to watch kids unbox Hot Wheels.

Speaker 2 I mean, or Barbies or whatever. Like, none of it.
You know.

Speaker 1 Unboxing things are strange. Yeah.
It's like techno porn. Yeah.
You know, you're watching someone do something you wish you were doing. Oh, I wish I had that option.
Yeah. That's it's so weird.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But it's, you know, it's also very strange when you think about how many people are tuned into that where you never would have expected that in the past.

Speaker 1 Like there would never be a television show on NBC where someone unboxes stuff. You'd be like, no one's going to watch that.

Speaker 1 But meanwhile, put it on YouTube and millions of people will watch that stuff. So there's a part of it that we didn't anticipate.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I don't know. I hope it'll be a pendulum because when you brought up the television, I thought, well, that replaced the dance hall, right? People used to go dance and hang out before those television.

Speaker 2 Like you'd be out doing something and how cool.

Speaker 1 Right. You know, or go

Speaker 1 to the world's flat. Right.
It's like there's benefits to all this ability to communicate as well. The problem is when it's centralized.
Right.

Speaker 1 The real problem with television is that television has advertising. Advertising limits what you can say.
And because of that,

Speaker 1 we censored language, right? Because advertisers didn't want you swearing on television. So the way people talked in real life, they never talked on television.
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 1 And, you know, and so that got subverted. You know, true free expression got subverted by advertisement.

Speaker 2 Well, and that is what is cool about the world we're living in right now, right?

Speaker 2 Because like YouTube and Twitter, X, you know, whatever, Blue Sky, all the things, podcasts, I mean, people are free to kind of speak and talk about it.

Speaker 1 Not necessarily on Blue Sky.

Speaker 1 I bet I can get bad pretty quick, which is some simple scientific facts.

Speaker 2 But, you know, I mean, there is a democracy to information now where

Speaker 2 I think like stuff that could never have gotten out there 20, 30 years ago when the gatekeeping of, like you were saying, advertising and all that was so extreme, it's just changed.

Speaker 2 And that's awesome.

Speaker 1 Profoundly. Yeah.

Speaker 1 In a way that I don't think we even appreciate because we're a part of it right I think it's one of those things we've become accustomed to checking the news on your phone when you wake up in the morning and having and friends sending you things oh my god you see this right and cool things too great music and yeah so many things get ex

Speaker 1 they get shared like your show got shared to me I don't even remember who shared it to me because so many people did yeah because I don't remember who the first person was

Speaker 2 well and I think that's the thing that is cool right we actually have like evidence of what this like democratization of information looks like. The UAP phenomenon has become so much more mainstream.

Speaker 2 People are talking about it. Things that could not have been shared or spoken are now out there.
Same with psychedelics and psilocybin and going on ketamine trips or whatever.

Speaker 2 All that now is just common knowledge that this can be great for healing PTSD or depression or whatever. The stuff with telepathy, you know?

Speaker 2 I mean, channeling, whatever it is, like all these things, especially TikTok, you're like, holy cow, this is so.

Speaker 1 I'm glad you brought the UAP thing up. I hate to interrupt you, but because I think a lot of what we're hearing is nonsense.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of what is being shared, especially publicly, like

Speaker 1 there's

Speaker 1 too many voices that I think are either intelligence assets or are disinformation experts that are doing it on purpose. And there's too much of,

Speaker 1 you know,

Speaker 1 the same feeling that I get, you know, like when I said I met my friend's ex-girlfriend, I was like, oh, get out now. Yeah.
There's a set, I have that feeling about the UAP thing.

Speaker 1 When I hear people talk, nothing seems real to me. Yeah.
When I talk to people about it, there's not one, I mean, even when people tell me their own personal experiences, I believe them.

Speaker 1 It does not register as real. That's so interesting.
Something registers as being nonsense. There's something, maybe not nonsense, but maybe way weirder than what they're explaining it like.

Speaker 1 Like non-physical interaction that they are reinterpreting as like physical interaction. Yeah.
That there's some, there's some disconnect between their work.

Speaker 1 Like if someone tells me an experience that they had, like, here's a good example.

Speaker 1 My friend Steve told me a harrowing experience of them being attacked by a brown bear in Alaska.

Speaker 1 And when he tells you this story, first of all, I know it's real because I know multiple people who were there. They were all there.
It was, no one got hurt.

Speaker 1 It was very fortunate, but they got charged by a grizzly who ran through their tent. One of my friends was on its back

Speaker 1 for like 10 yards. Like it literally plowed through the people, and he wound up like riding its back for like 10 yards before he fell off.
Wow.

Speaker 1 Yeah, it was just like, I mean, it can cover 10 yards in a second.

Speaker 1 And the whole thing was just insane chaos.

Speaker 1 And the the way he describes how your reptilian brain completely takes the fear is so overwhelming and different than anything you've ever experienced before. I know it happened.

Speaker 1 When he's telling me this, I know it happened. When these people are telling me about talking to aliens and all that, I'm not getting nothing out of them.
I'm not getting nothing.

Speaker 1 I'm getting a flat piece of paper.

Speaker 2 Yeah, there's no fear. There's no

Speaker 1 what it is. I don't know what it is.
I just don't get anything from their story. I hear it.
It's interesting. But I don't get anything that lights any bells.

Speaker 1 There's no bulbs go off with me.

Speaker 1 I just sit there and go, wow. Okay, so what were you thinking? And I'm asking them questions, but I'm not getting nothing.
Yeah. And so that leaves me

Speaker 1 because I know that

Speaker 1 for sure the government has technology that they do not want the general public to be aware of for reasons of national security or whatever it is. Or, you know, money has been

Speaker 1 pushed through to finance things and they lie to Congress and they have to keep lying, whatever the reason is. That's real.

Speaker 1 There's most certainly black ops programs that the general public is not aware of. That's always going to be the case.

Speaker 1 If you have those, what better way to hide them than in plain sight and with a bunch of people that are air quote whistleblowers that go out and tell everybody about all these experiences, they're not of this earth.

Speaker 1 And that's what I would do.

Speaker 1 If I was the government and I wanted to be super sneaky, I would have a bunch of my like really clever agents go and whistleblow, tell some stories,

Speaker 1 talk about people that have been abducted, talk about all these different things.

Speaker 1 And then on top of that, there's real experiences. So I think...

Speaker 1 I think there is something because it exists throughout history, just like telepathy exists throughout history and ghosts exist throughout history and religion exists throughout history.

Speaker 1 There's something there.

Speaker 1 There's something

Speaker 1 there that's distorted by our very slippery grasp on truth. Yes.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I think that's a very true assessment.

Speaker 1 Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 But there's also just too many stories from hundreds of years ago that are incredibly similar to the things that people are talking about today.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's the stuff that's interesting. Like Jacques Valley and exactly.

Speaker 1 I just finished his third book. Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean,

Speaker 1 that's the mind.

Speaker 1 But he's great because he's not a believer. Yeah.
He's very skeptical about a lot and highlights a lot of the bullshit to the point where, like, okay, what's true? Yeah.

Speaker 2 I mean, those are the people you have to trust, though. I think the only ones.

Speaker 1 The only ones you can trust. Yeah.
Because there's too many people that are out there telling you, I know what's happening. We're about to experience contact.

Speaker 1 All the people, the joint chiefs of staff have been notified. And like, those people I don't want to talk to.
Like, you shut the fuck up, you don't know anything, there's no way you know.

Speaker 1 You're just taking advantage of this very weird moment in time where people aren't sure, but there's all this discussion of this phenomenon, and you've grifted yourself right, exactly.

Speaker 2 There's a lot of those people, there are, yeah, and it's clickbait, and it's this and they're profit, yeah, because they're gross, no.

Speaker 2 But the true intellectual people is looking at the consciousness side of this, I think, is fascinating. That's what's like what's going on here, I think that's where it is, yeah.

Speaker 2 It's a conscious, I mean, that's why

Speaker 2 you know, I wasn't into the UAP stuff until people started saying to me, like, you should at least start looking at some of these great thinkers because a lot of this has to do with consciousness and what are we and why are we here and like what's a hyper object right like like a lot of stuff that I'm like what is going on so you start reading about it and understanding okay like where things might converge is an exploration of consciousness.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 1 And our consciousness is confined by identity. It's confined by so many different things,

Speaker 1 so many walls that we put up and ego and blinders and self-delusion. There's all these just weird things that we have in our mind because we don't necessarily have a very good

Speaker 1 direction book of how to be a human. Right.
You know.

Speaker 2 Or what we're just limited to by our vision, right? Like if you were to talk to a dog and be like, hey,

Speaker 2 does this dog know about calculus? And does it know about like

Speaker 2 the, you know, whatever, Electoral College? Of course not. Like, there's no way, there's no universe in which a dog would know about that stuff.

Speaker 1 But it could smell a cat four blocks away. Exactly.
You ever see a cat dog just smell like yesterday? No.

Speaker 1 In the air, you know, they have insane noses.

Speaker 1 They can smell individual ingredients in a hamburger. Wow.

Speaker 2 That's so fascinating.

Speaker 1 And a bear is like 10 times stronger than that. That's smart.
Which is bananas. Amazing.
They can smell human beings hundreds of yards away.

Speaker 1 Just a whiff of the wind. And then all of a sudden, they're like, oh, people, let's get the fuck out of here.

Speaker 2 Well, and that's like,

Speaker 2 we don't have that. But like a dog doesn't have XYZ.
What are we limiting? We We might not be able to see half of what's there or

Speaker 2 conceive of it.

Speaker 1 So wave your hand above an earthworm. There's no idea what's going on.
It has no idea what's going on. Yeah, like it doesn't need to.
Right. It lives its life underground.

Speaker 1 Those senses are not necessary. Right.

Speaker 2 So that's the mystery, right? Yeah.

Speaker 1 And our senses most likely have atrophied. You know, that's the real thing is that, you know, there's a lot of talk from

Speaker 1 ancient

Speaker 1 whether it's ancient religious texts or of contact, of something communicating with you that's not physically there. And you got to wonder, like, was this really common for people? Like,

Speaker 1 there's so many descriptions of being contacted by something that's not there. Like,

Speaker 1 was that before language normal?

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 And was it physically that someone contacted you or was it in a mental space, right? Like, were you in this thought world, like almost you were astral traveling or whatever, right?

Speaker 2 Like, I mean, that's the question, too, is, can you be experiencing something in your mind that's not happening physically? Right.

Speaker 2 And I think that question is per racism in the UAP world as well as in this like telepathy world.

Speaker 1 Right. It's the birds flying around in unison.
Like somehow or another, they're tuned in to some

Speaker 1 pattern that they never collide. How do they not collide?

Speaker 1 I mean, that's like so spectacular that you're literally hundreds of feet above the earth. If you collide, you get knocked unconscious, you're both dead.
And no one collides ever.

Speaker 1 And they're going fast. I mean, imagine, like, why would you do that? Like, what

Speaker 1 benefit,

Speaker 1 evolutionary benefit, what natural survival benefit would there be in a bunch of you flying around in weird patterns in the sky? Like, look at that. Look at that.

Speaker 2 Here we go.

Speaker 1 That is so beautiful. What I've heard is they just look like a bigger thing.

Speaker 2 So it's. That's got to be it, right? You look like a big monster.

Speaker 1 Yeah, but that doesn't scare off fish. They go right towards that big thing.
That's the problem, you know. When tunda see that big thing, they're like, fuck you.

Speaker 1 Look how crazy that is.

Speaker 2 I mean, it's so good.

Speaker 1 But why would that be a benefit to like being a bigger thing? That would make you a bigger target. I don't, I mean, it's just

Speaker 1 weird. It's so weird.
Like, no one's fallen. No, no one's going to be.
How come they're not colliding? How come they're not falling? And doesn't it look like art?

Speaker 2 I mean, it really is like an elaborate dance.

Speaker 1 Have you ever seen wolves hunt? No. They communicate.
And we don't.

Speaker 1 We don't know what they're doing. We don't know how they do it, but they decide.
Telepathy, man. Yeah.
Yeah, there's something. Because they flank animals.
They know how to do it.

Speaker 1 They know to chase animals into canyons, and then they get on the other side of it and they capture them when they're trying to escape.

Speaker 2 It's still epithet.

Speaker 2 I mean, one of the teachers that I've come to love so much, and she was also in England, she said that the first time she realized something like this was going on, she was working at a school where

Speaker 2 individuals weren't speaking. And she saw people of like a bunch of her class class playing at recess.
And she's like, it was a fully orchestrated game.

Speaker 2 Like, this one needed to go here, and this one needed to go here. And they were doing this.
And then she's like, but they weren't speaking. And I was watching this through the classroom window.

Speaker 2 And I thought, they are communicating through telepathy. Because how else do

Speaker 1 this is a huge organized game?

Speaker 2 And she watched it over and over again. And then she thought in her head, like, I want to be in on this.
I want you all to teach me. I want to get in on this.
And then one of the boys started,

Speaker 2 she'd start hearing him in her head, like if he had fallen down outside or couldn't find his lunch money or, you know, something happened, skinned his knee.

Speaker 2 And she would hear him and like would know where to go find him. And she was like, oh my gosh, like he's, this is starting to work.

Speaker 1 And then, whoa, yeah.

Speaker 2 And then like one of the students'

Speaker 2 mothers died and she became, and the mother said to this teacher, I want you to really take care of my son as he ages. He loves you.
Like he, he really respects you.

Speaker 2 And she's done that his whole life. And now, you know, he's a grown adult and they still communicate.
But she's like, now he communicates with me telepathically. I'll get these huge visual packages.

Speaker 2 And she's like, and sometimes I think,

Speaker 2 first, did this come from me and my making this up? But it'll be like an update on someone from, you know, that they knew both 20 years ago.

Speaker 2 And she'll be like, that can't be that this guy is suddenly a priest. He was so unreligious or whatever.
There'll be something that makes no sense.

Speaker 2 And she'll go look it up on Facebook and it proves to be true. So, you know, she'll constantly have to double-check things.
And she,

Speaker 2 yeah, I mean, so it's, it's remarkable, but I do not doubt that the wolves are probably probably using telepathy.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I think chimpanzees do it too. I think they all have roles and they know what role to play, and they just sort of like lock in on this task together and somehow or another communicate.

Speaker 1 Like they lay in wait. They know when to wait.
It's so cool. It's weird.
It's so cool. Yeah, it's so cool.
I mean,

Speaker 1 imagine if one day we can figure out through technology to access minds of animals and see how an owl thinks.

Speaker 1 Like see like what is what is the

Speaker 1 what's the process in their mind when they lock onto something? What is a predator thing?

Speaker 1 Does a prey animal know when it's being watched?

Speaker 2 Yes.

Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean

Speaker 2 there's been that.

Speaker 1 Trust me.

Speaker 1 I'm a hunter.

Speaker 1 They don't always know.

Speaker 1 They don't know at all. No, sometimes they don't know at all.
That's so how far away are you when you're sometimes like 50, 60 yards and they have no idea you're there. Wow.

Speaker 1 And they're, you know, but a lot of times they're distracted too because they're in the rut. So they're mating and they're distracted,

Speaker 1 which is a rude way to hunt them. But that's that's how

Speaker 1 people hunt them.

Speaker 2 It's like the worst way to hunt someone.

Speaker 1 I mean, not always. A lot of animals you got their music that are not in the rut.
But, you know, like white-tailed deer, elk, primarily, you hunt them when they're in the rut. Yeah.

Speaker 1 There's some animals, though, that are very, very difficult to hunt. And one of the reasons why is you don't hunt them when they're in the rut.

Speaker 1 like mule deer mule deer are the most clever and the most aware of all deer species because they're constantly being pursued by mountain lions

Speaker 1 so they're always like

Speaker 1 yeah they're totally nervous they're like always on on edge and they have an uncanny ability to get out of the way They just, they, they know something's there and they're like, fuck this, and they just bounce out.

Speaker 1 Yeah. Yeah, you got to sneak up on them when the wind's blowing.
You got to like, like, people take their shoes off to creep up on them. So tactical.
Yeah, well, you have to be. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Because you have to, especially bow hunting. So you have to get, ideally, you want to get within inside of 60 yards.
Yeah. That's really what you want, especially a mule deer is not that big.

Speaker 1 An elk is a much larger target, but a mule deer is, you know, a big one's like 300 pounds. You've got to get pretty close.
And they fucking know something's up. They know something's up.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, sometimes you're staring at them and they're just like, what?

Speaker 1 You know, they're just tuned in. Yeah.
There's also, I don't know if this is is real or not, but there's a company called Hex,

Speaker 1 and they make these, they make clothes that block out your electrical signal. And one of the things, like, it's very hard to discern whether or not it works with

Speaker 1 mammals, but it seems to work really well with fish. So there's a lot of video evidence of these people putting these hex suits on underneath their

Speaker 1 wet gear or their scuba gear and then going in the water and being able to get like right up close to fish they don't even know what the fuck is going on and they couldn't if they didn't have the suit on this is their assertion okay now obviously they're selling a product yeah very controversial in the uh the hunting world whether or not these things are real some people 100 believe in them and there's a bunch of evidence that people wear them and then they sit in a field and turkeys like get right next to them and turkeys have incredible vision turkeys have better vision than humans yeah huh i'd like to know more about that yeah but

Speaker 1 the really compelling stuff to me is the water stuff because they do it in the water. And the idea is that prey animals have this electrical,

Speaker 1 some sort of

Speaker 1 signal that they're giving off that these animals can pick up.

Speaker 2 That's really interesting. I'd like to learn more about that.

Speaker 1 That's fascinating. Well, fish have a thing called a lateral line.
You ever seen that line on a fish? So that lateral line is interpreting movement in the water. It's interpreting

Speaker 1 a filmographer, he says it lets them get them closer to anything.

Speaker 1 Really? Yeah.

Speaker 1 He's just showing different. So this is

Speaker 1 the problem is, obviously this is a commercial. Right.
Right.

Speaker 1 And the problem is, you know, these people believe it, and I don't know if they've done, like, how would you do a double-blind study with this?

Speaker 1 You know, would you're dealing with completely different fish, completely different time. Yeah.
You know, there's a, what did that fish experience?

Speaker 1 Did that fish just experience a shark 30 minutes ago? What do you, you know, what's going on? Are they going to do that?

Speaker 2 You have to do a bunch of them, I think.

Speaker 1 You'd have to do it a lot. And I don't know if they've done that because I think they're just trying to sell this thing that may or may not work.

Speaker 2 And it's because it blocks out your magnetic field?

Speaker 1 Is that what they do?

Speaker 1 What is their explanation for

Speaker 1 that?

Speaker 1 Has something to do?

Speaker 1 Well, the human body is essentially an electrical system, right? So it kind of makes sense that we would give off some sort of

Speaker 1 visual representation or some senses that we don't understand. Just says electromagnetic patterns or

Speaker 1 something about that. Huh.

Speaker 1 All right. What is it? Google Hex suit debunked.
Oh.

Speaker 1 Google that.

Speaker 1 HECS suit debunked. I wonder if anybody's ever tried to debunk it and say that's nonsense.
Because I know a lot of people that don't think that works. They don't want to wear them.

Speaker 1 But I know my friend John Dudley, who's one of the best hunters in the world, he wears it every time he goes hunting. Really? Yeah.

Speaker 2 Fascinating.

Speaker 1 He thinks animals can't see him as well when he wears it. So interesting.

Speaker 2 I mean, if he believes it works, then that's like, you know, sometimes the

Speaker 2 act of faith is more important than the fact of it, right?

Speaker 2 Sometimes.

Speaker 1 Maybe. I don't know.
No, I think the fact is more important because if you're doing both things, if you're doing, if you're

Speaker 1 doing everything correctly, but one thing does give you, like, camouflage works. We know it works because there's something about the way animals see,

Speaker 1 they essentially see movement and line detection.

Speaker 1 So it's to see the frame of a human being clearly if you're wearing black and you're standing there and you're a bipedal thing they're like oh fuck that that's a person yeah let's get out of here but if your lines are completely broken up by camouflage and you stand still they don't see you they see nonsense they see the woods yeah see you know you blend in yeah yeah that's why camouflage doesn't have to look like leaves and sticks it can just look like patches of black and stripes and tiger stripes right it makes sense yeah yeah it does It does make sense.

Speaker 1 I mean, that's why animals in nature have that. Yeah.

Speaker 1 You know, I was watching this thing where they were explaining what animals see versus what we see, why tigers would be so beautifully colored because the animals don't see that color for whatever reason, but they do see the lines, and the lines completely blur in with the grass because animals see in black and white or in a weird sort of shade.

Speaker 2 Interesting.

Speaker 1 Have you found anything about Hexu debunked?

Speaker 1 Tons of anecdotal evidence, a few videos. People, though, a good point is like, how did Fred Baer do it? How did he get so close to stuff?

Speaker 1 That's just their example. The old, you know, the original Hunter.
Right. Those guys all wore red flannel shirts.
They weren't doing odor blocking stuff. That odor-blocking shit doesn't work.

Speaker 1 Yeah, I have no real... No one did like a study and made it.
Because by the way, if you have odor-blocking, the animals smell the odor-blocking. And they're like, what the fuck?

Speaker 2 Right.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that would be silly.

Speaker 1 That's stinky. That's a fucking weird smell.
There's no way. We smell so bad to animals.
There's no way. They smell us like we smell a skunk.

Speaker 2 Yeah, that's so interesting.

Speaker 1 Yeah, you know, you could smell a skunk that gets killed like five blocks away. That's how they smell us.

Speaker 1 They know we're in the neighborhood. Yeah.

Speaker 1 Yeah, so I don't think that scent stuff does anything. I mean, maybe it blocks a little bit.
So maybe it helps a little bit.

Speaker 1 Maybe.

Speaker 1 I mean, you're looking for every little edge because you're essentially competing with the survival instincts of something that has existed in that form for a thousand years or excuse me, a million years or more.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 You're walking into an environment you're supposed to lose in if you're hunting an animal.

Speaker 1 Yeah, the only reason why you win is because you have a bow and arrow. Right.
Or you have a rifle

Speaker 1 and you know which way the wind's blowing. That's the big thing.
It's like if you get winded, if they smell you, it's over.

Speaker 1 Like the whole thing is the wind has to be in your face. So if you're looking at the animal, the wind has to be coming in your direction.
If the wind hits the back of your neck, it's over. Really?

Speaker 1 You feel it. You're like, oh, shit.

Speaker 2 Because they'll smell you instantly.

Speaker 1 Oh, 100%. they're like, what the fuck, this? And they're like, wow, really?

Speaker 1 Wow. Yeah.

Speaker 1 100 yards away, they just start running. Really? Oh, yeah, yeah.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 What if the wind was going like perpendicular?

Speaker 1 No, it has to go to them. Okay.
Right. That's why they always find themselves, they always bed down in a position where the wind is coming straight to them towards any threats.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 And then the females will line up and look in the other way. So they'll look towards

Speaker 1 the way where the wind is going. Yeah.
And then everyone will line out so the wind comes to them and then some will look in the opposite direction. Wow.
Yeah, and then try to keep their eyes open.

Speaker 1 But again, it's because they're dealing with cats. It's a fascinating sport, though.

Speaker 2 Yeah, it's just because it's so, it's so, I mean, it is so tactical, not just like the physicality of it and the wind and the environment, but just like the mental, you know,

Speaker 1 strategy. It's bizarrely psychedelic in this weird way.
When you're there, the world doesn't exist and when you see these animals you connect with them in some sort of a strange way

Speaker 1 and you're you're trying to like almost not exist you're trying to like give off nothing which is what cats do when you see them creeping up on things like they're not like oh motherfucker yeah right they're not rolling at you like locked in yeah just locked in almost like non-existent

Speaker 1 until they go yeah and then the whole thing is like i got to be able to move quicker than you can run away right yeah that's such a weird sport, yeah.

Speaker 1 It's a weird, but it's whatever these animals are experiencing with each other is probably some form of telepathy as well. You know, how do they know, like, how do wolves know to work together?

Speaker 1 Is it just trial and error? Like,

Speaker 1 it seems like they have roles that they have, like, predetermined roles. Like, one of them will chase them down, the other one will be laying in wait.

Speaker 1 Like, they do stuff together, they coordinate in some strange way.

Speaker 2 You had that wolf woman on your show, right?

Speaker 1 Fan boys, yeah, fascinating.

Speaker 2 Yeah, she's so so interesting yeah but she was most afraid of people

Speaker 1 yeah yeah rightly so yeah how many people get killed by wolves every year versus people yeah yeah people are way creepier yeah yeah yeah wolves are just real i mean clear not simple complex obviously but clear in what they're trying to do they're trying to eat and survive

Speaker 1 and that's that's their job yep yeah

Speaker 1 Well, this was a tangent, wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah, we got a lot of tangents.

Speaker 1 But that's the beauty of the human mind. It is.
I love that. It does go on tangents.
Yes. I think that

Speaker 1 we're all sort of trying to understand why we view the world the way we do and how much of that has been projected upon us by culture and society and how much of it is things we understand innately.

Speaker 1 How many

Speaker 1 things we can't prove, but that are a part of this world that we live in.

Speaker 1 And I think

Speaker 1 what your show has done with the telepathy tapes, and I'm sure what the documentary has done, is, I think, more important than anything, open up this possibility to be explored, you know, and recognizing that it's real and that these preconceived notions that we've held on to for so long are probably erroneous.

Speaker 1 We probably have screwed ourselves by latching on to the idea that this is it. Yeah.
This is all that we have and this is the way to live life. And

Speaker 1 put your suit on and go to work. Right.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 What a boring way to live life.

Speaker 1 Gosh.

Speaker 2 I can't imagine working in an office.

Speaker 2 Yeah. I mean, I think it's a pendulum shift.
I mean, the whole world is opening up right now, right?

Speaker 2 I mean, there's just poof, like so much is happening, I think, that people are challenging these preconceived old fashioned. Ooh, I might have some coffee now.

Speaker 1 Please do. Sorry.

Speaker 2 No, I said no earlier. Now I'm into it.
Cheers.

Speaker 1 Cheers. Thanks for being here.
Yeah.

Speaker 2 I like your mug.

Speaker 1 With a third eye. You can have it.
Really? Okay, I'll bring it home.

Speaker 2 That's cool.

Speaker 2 So I can't wait to taste your coffee, see how strong it is.

Speaker 1 It's pretty good.

Speaker 1 That's great. Shout out to Black Eyes.

Speaker 2 That's perfect. Yeah, it's good.
It's great.

Speaker 1 So

Speaker 1 what is your hope for this stuff? Like, in your most ideal scenario,

Speaker 1 how you're...

Speaker 1 Obviously, your show has been received in a tremendously positive way, and people are super intrigued, and it's really popular. So that's great.
So more discussion, but what,

Speaker 1 like in an ideal scenario, what would you like to happen?

Speaker 2 Okay. I think there's three things, right?

Speaker 2 I think for one, like baseline, for people to presume competence in non-speaking individuals or someone who can't control their body, don't think just because they can't speak doesn't mean they can't think.

Speaker 1 They're not there. Yeah, they're in there.

Speaker 1 Right.

Speaker 2 And then I think the second one is certainly to try to get spelling validated and in schools, right?

Speaker 2 Like, it's almost like telepathy in a way, operated as a Trojan horse to get people to acknowledge and notice these incredible individuals and just take note and help them.

Speaker 2 So I think getting spelling validated and affirmed and make it accessible in schools, that would be the next thing. And then I think the third thing is, I mean, truly a paradigm shift.

Speaker 2 I mean, I want people to know, because I've come to what I feel like is believe this, right? That there is a non-physical world that's real.

Speaker 2 Our idea that consciousness is at the tippy top, that's the result of this physical world, I think is incorrect. I think consciousness is at the bottom of it and started everything.

Speaker 2 And with that in mind, consciousness then, there's so much more possible. It can survive our body.
We can communicate without our bodies. We can see into the future, maybe into the past.

Speaker 2 I mean, whatever it is, anything mental, we're capable of. And that helps us explain a lot more.
So the paradigm shift, I think, is really cool.

Speaker 2 If it can happen. And a lot of people have been working toward that, you know? I mean, so I'm just like a tiny bit in a large puzzle of huge giants that have come before me.
But I think that

Speaker 2 if this is going to help more people like just be aware of the system of what is called, again, like this materialism, which is the idea that it's only what's real can be, you know, observed and measured.

Speaker 2 If we can get people to realize they're living in that system, that system was constructed and it's not necessarily the truth.

Speaker 2 So don't be embarrassed to talk about stuff, to research stuff, to ask a question. You shouldn't be ridiculed and dismissed just because the system tells you you should be.

Speaker 1 That concept is just so hard to grasp.

Speaker 1 If you haven't read any of Tom Campbell's stuff or haven't considered this or listened to Rupert Sheldrick talk or your show, it's like it's so hard for people to grasp that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Tom Campbell blew my mind. I mean he is like

Speaker 1 I got a lot of text messages from buddies after that like what the fuck dude I'm so confused.

Speaker 2 Yeah.

Speaker 2 But this is what I will say because I actually had a friend that when I was sort of like

Speaker 2 going through my own thing, she was just like, just if you just start reading about some of the stuff, just reading it, you'll find what you're looking for.

Speaker 2 Like, there's so much there, whether if you start reading about near-death experiences or Ian Stevenson or Tom Campbell and any of this stuff, it's just like, boom, boom, boom, boom, woo, woo. And

Speaker 2 people are researching this, right?

Speaker 2 It's not like this just happened. This has been going on for a long time, these questions.

Speaker 1 So once the documentary's out,

Speaker 1 what do you hope to do next?

Speaker 1 Do you have a

Speaker 1 game plan?

Speaker 2 So we just started working on the dock. I'm hoping that will be done and wrapped up early next year.
Maybe we'll premiere it at South By. We'll be back, hopefully.
I mean, who knows?

Speaker 2 And so after that, then we're going to do an impact campaign where you take a documentary around and you screen it with a panel. So that'll be cool.
It'll be non-speakers.

Speaker 2 And, you know, we can get people from the Department of Education there or whatever in different cities. And then hopefully that will make an impact, get people into the rooms, talking.
whatever.

Speaker 2 And then after that, we have a really long-term goal where we want to try to work with like a few foundations or maybe start a foundation to open centers that can,

Speaker 2 if you can imagine something

Speaker 2 maybe like kind of like the size of an REI in every city where nonspeakers can go and get like physical and mental and spiritual supports and spelling help and education or whatever.

Speaker 2 You know, there's physical therapy that can help.

Speaker 2 And for respite care for these parents who are working 24-7 to take care of these individuals, and it could just be a beautiful thing, but then there's so many academics to what you kind of noted earlier, like that might want to work with nonspeakers, who might want to,

Speaker 2 can you help me decode whale language or figure out how to stop blanching the coral reefs or whatever.

Speaker 2 So if there's, you know, I know non-speakers who want to work in plant medicine, who want to work in this, who want to work in XYZ, but I think the most important thing is these centers maybe could vet those individuals, make sure these academics learn to become a spelling to communicate partner and

Speaker 2 be background checked to make sure they don't have some nefarious goal. And then this could maybe create

Speaker 2 opportunities for spellers to make money, to have a career, to really contribute in these meaningful ways.

Speaker 2 So that's our goal is to create these like centers that can both nourish and support non-speakers and their families, but also allow non-speakers to engage and use their intellect and abilities to have meaningful careers.

Speaker 1 That and

Speaker 1 more,

Speaker 1 right?

Speaker 1 More people coming out, more people understanding it, more people grasping it, more people

Speaker 1 accepting.

Speaker 1 And then this sort of changes

Speaker 1 the level of cynicism. So it changes the level of negativity and it opens up the acceptance of this stuff.
And then maybe we learn more. Yeah.

Speaker 2 Yeah. And it's just, I mean, in history, too, people would look at deaf people or blind people before and think they're not in there, especially deaf people.

Speaker 2 It was just like, oh, they must not be in there. And no one thinks that anymore.
It's ridiculous to think that. Right, right.
You know, but we're doing the same thing to this population.

Speaker 2 So, yeah, I mean,

Speaker 2 there are some of the most brilliant individuals that I've ever met.

Speaker 2 And actually, I talked to a teacher right before I left here today, and I said, she was talking about her student she just had a conversation with who

Speaker 2 she said in when in

Speaker 2 middle school or whatever high school what did you learn that whole time what did you learn in school well he was being taught like he was little and what he answered was patience I mean just so beautiful so wise right he wasn't crapping on the like I learned nothing they kept telling me animal colors and this and whatever like it wasn't anger it was I learned patience wow because us

Speaker 2 you know our stupid system that has made these individuals out to be like they're not smart, right? Has taught them, has failed them when it comes to education.

Speaker 2 So I just thought that was a beautiful answer and so

Speaker 2 in line with how wise and kind and thoughtful so many non-speakers I've met are.

Speaker 1 Yeah, that's a beautiful answer. That's a good way to wrap this up.
Kai, thank you very much for being here and thank you very much for your series. It's really incredible.

Speaker 1 And I can't wait to watch the documentary and I'd love to have you back on whenever it releases.

Speaker 2 Yeah, wonderful. I'll bring some parents with me.
I'll bring and a non-speaker with us. You can see it.
Okay. I'm going to bring Katie in Houston and your mind's going to be.

Speaker 1 Okay, let's do it. Let's do it.
All right.

Speaker 1 Telepathy tapes. It's available basically everywhere.
Spotify, Apple, whatever, right?

Speaker 2 Wherever you get your podcast.

Speaker 1 You get your podcast. It's really incredible.
I loved it.

Speaker 1 All right. That's it.
Thank you very much. Thank you, Joe.
Thank you. Bye, everybody.