#2275 - Magnus Carlsen

Joe Rogan Podcast, check it out! The Joe Rogan Experience. Train by day, Joe Rogan Podcast by night, all day! Alright, we're up and rolling.
Magnus Carlson, ladies and gentlemen. You want some coffee? No, oh this is water.
Tell Jeff to bring in the coffee. I forgot to bring in the coffee.
No, no, I'm good with water. I need coffee.
I'm going to keep up with you, buddy. And, of course, Tony Hagecliffe is here, who's a gigantic chess fan and just creamed his pants yesterday when I told him you were coming in.
And then immediately I said, you've got to come with me. And so Tony's here as well.
It's an honor to meet you, man. I'm always fascinated by people that are at the top of something that's insanely difficult, like chess.
And I'm always wondering, like, how much time is involved? How often do you play? And when did you start? How old were you when you first started playing? I think my dad is an avid chess player. So I think he thought that I might have some talent.
So he taught me pretty early, around five years years old but at that time I wasn't that interested I was mostly into Legos and I was into maths and like sports stats and I had my little flag book with all all the countries in the world their flags and their inhabitants and area and everything and And I sort of, that's what I did, generally just taking in all the stats that I could also with sports, reading the sports section every day. And I didn't find chess that fun.
A couple of years later, my older sister is a year and a half older than me. She did a lot of chess with with my dad i started sitting in on them a bit and um i i started liking it i really really wanted to beat my sister as well at generally everything and uh yeah from there on it really just became uh became my thing and it's you know been my main hobby and uh eventually work as well since yeah obviously it's so funny though a spark a competitive spark with your sister is really what ignited you to get going with it yeah the funny thing is like she's not competitive at all so she hated the fact that i like i wanted to play especially especially when I realized that I could beat her.

And she liked chess, but she stopped for a while and only started when I had become good enough that there wasn't a competition.

So it turned out like my dad was right after all.

I just needed that extra push.

Yeah, what a call.

I think you've got some talent.

What a call. Grandmaster 12, was it? 13.
So actually the record is 12, but most kids these days, honestly, they start so early. I was at a tournament in India a few months ago, and there's this guy who's like a 1600-rated player, and he's three years old.
And I'm seeing the games. They're actually decent.
And yeah, now there's this one kid from Argentina. They call him the Messi of chess, who's going to become a grandmaster soon.
I think he's only 10. So they're really, really playing early these days.
But it's good to see though, because like information is so easily accessible these days, like it takes a lot shorter time to get good at something. Well, it seems like now chess, because of social media, it's like everything else.
It's kind of exploding because there's so many fascinating videos out. And then, of course, there was the big controversy with that young man who you believe is a big old cheater.
That guy. I need to know the anal beads thing.
Is that a legitimate theory? So it actually started in one of my friend's streamer channel that like one random guy said made made a comment about anal beads and he was and he was like yeah maybe and then i think it it became it started taking the rounds in reddit and then Elon saw it, tweeted about it, and then obviously it blew up. I actually spoke to, I think it was Mark Andreessen, who said that would be one way to do it.
Yes. But I really, really, really don't believe that that has happened like i think it has no um no connection to reality but it just became it's a thing of its own so unfortunately this young man we will explain the anal beads thing but this this young man is a very talented player but does has have a history of some shenanigans correct and even admitted that he did a little bit of cheating in order to move his rating higher so he could play better players.
Yeah, I mean, he's not admitted to nearly the extent of his cheating. But if you sort of take what what chess.com say then yeah his he cheated a bunch online in in a certain period of time partly in tournaments but mostly in in casual games as he just set himself to to sort of get himself up the standings and play the best players in the world.
But he is a very good player. I think he has become a very good player, yeah.
Interesting, okay. So what made you convinced that he was cheating in that particular game? And by what method do you think he could possibly have been doing this? Could you hear something? Was it like, brr like you're hearing vibrations you see his seat shift yeah you're smelling something there's a wave of something in the air um yeah i mean that would have been um would have been the smoking gun i suppose i think there was a combination of um of things, based on the chess level that I thought that he had and that I'd seen from his game, both playing against him, analyzing a little with him and looking at his other games.
There were a lot of stories back then. The thing is also there's a Netflix documentary coming in a few months that sort of where I'm telling my side of the story.
So I cannot go too deep into everything, but what I can say was that there were a lot of factors that made me very, very suspicious. And I think ever since then, he has become better.
there's some still something there's still something off both then and and now but that's so fascinating that as an elite chess player you'd be able to recognize that something is happening that's outside of his capabilities again i'm not ruling out the factor that chess players are becoming more and more paranoid because we do have chess engines that basically have perfect chess right like anybody with their their phone can as i think elon tweeted to to gary once like my iphone can beat you at chess which is the truth and this means that

you know anybody having access to information it's it's incredibly it's incredibly dangerous and i think top level chess has been a lot based on on trust and um whenever you have outsiders whom there are these stories about, everybody gets a bit jittery. There's like people who either like they burst onto the scene, then they establish themselves.
And people know that they're legit and so on. It's not a problem.
With him specifically, I don't know. It's just he doesn't seem to be playing or it didn't at that point seem to be playing with a particular style.
It seemed that he either played kind of eh, or he just more or less played any position very well in certain games. Like, he could just switch from tactical to positional play very easily, and it didn't smell good to me.
It still doesn't, but to some extent, he had his lawsuit. We've all kind of moved a little bit on.
I think I don't trust him. A lot of other top players still don't trust him.
he certainly doesn certainly doesn't trust me or chess.com or Hikaru or whomever he felt wrong about. This episode is brought to you by the Farmer's Dog.
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The problem is, like, once someone admits that they cheated a game, especially a game that has a lot of trust in it, like chess, you're always going to think, like, is he cheating now? Always. But the question is, like, what method? Like, what do people do? So if you're sitting there, you have no phone, your pockets are empty, like, what could you be doing that could possibly be aiding you? Well, first of all, an invisible airpiece that people use for exams and so on.
But he would have to have a partner. Yeah, he would, yeah.
That would not have been detected by the security system that they used at that tournament. They amped up the security after the whole thing happened.
Did they check your ears? Yeah, they start checking our ears. And then, you know, we had a live tournament in Paris last year where I played him, where there was proper security, where all of these things would be picked up and he didn't play to nearly the same level there.
So I think, well, I'm not an expert in all of that, but that's what I've heard from people that that's like the most obvious thing that someone could have done. And it wouldn't be really that hard to pull off considering the kind of security we have at chess tournaments.
And this tournament had a little bit of security. A lot of them open tournaments.
People are wandering in and out of the playing hall. There are people in the playing hall, spectators with their um um with their smartphones uh on and taking pictures or or whatever like going in and out like they could make signals it's it's um yeah it's it's it's it's it's hard it's it's a big problem in chess for sure yeah the so the anal, for people who don't know what we're talking about, the theory was that he had vibrating anal beads that would somehow or another through some sort of code explain to him the moves.
And I've thought about this for a lot longer than I care to admit. Like what kind of code are you getting from inside your butt that you're like okay I got it well it would be like you know

C4 or whatever like it could tell you

how would it say it in your butt

well I mean I'd have to

show you

luckily I brought one

yeah so I'm in right

now no it would be like it would

buzz right it would buzz the

letters and then the numbers that would

indicate where you would move and there would only be

a piece or two so like the first

three vibrations would be letter C and then, yeah. Okay.
Yeah, it's just a sort of technological version of ways people have cheated before. There was a scandal back in 2010 where the captain of the French team was helping one of the French players by cheating.
He was basically just standing in certain spots around the table to tell him where to move. Oh, wow.
That's crazy. Oh, wow.
Dirty people out there. This is wild.
Well, it's such a competitive thing. Whenever you have competitive things, you always have people that just want to win at any cost.
Right. Yeah, it's also funny that one of his teammates from that tournament worked with me for a long time.
And he told me, like, this guy was, like, going out every night, not taking the tournament seriously at all. But, yeah, he had a good reason.
Like, he knew he was going to win. He's partying.
He knew he knew he was gonna win that's hilarious so that is that the most egregious form of cheating that you've ever seen or heard of um no i i actually played an open tournament in denmark about 20 years ago where there was a guy who was playing grandmaster in the first round like this is not a very good player and he was he came drunk to the table and just literally pulled out his phone and opened open the chess program but of course like he was immediately um so that that wasn't of course nearly as as nefarious but yeah that's just a moron yeah yeah he was just yeah probably um some other some other issues there there's just such a it is such a fascinating game because it's impossible to play if you're dumb.

Like there's games that you could just be a savant, like an idiot savant.

But chess is like it's the most impressive thing for people to be unbelievably good at.

I don't know.

I think you can be dumb and be fairly good at chess. I think some intelligence certainly helps.
But after all, a lot of chess is about learning patterns. And basically anybody can do that.
So applying them at a higher level, learning how to evaluate and so on, that sort of is what sets really the best players apart from merely good players. But I feel like anybody could become quite decent at the game.
But I do love the fact that, you know, there are no coincidences, like, there are no outside factors. Well, if you don't talk, other than cheating, of course.
But it's just, yeah, you're either outsmarting your opponent or you're getting outsmarted. So for a guy like you that excels above all,

what is the difference in your preparation? Is it just simply who you are as a person, you think, or is it something about the difference in your preparation without giving away any secrets, obviously? I'm like known in the chess world for being like a little bit lazy, I think. the thing is that I

um

I known in the chess world for being a little bit lazy, I think. The thing is that

I...

Can I pause you there?

Yeah, yeah. What do you mean lazy?

How is that possible? No, the thing is, I've never

been the kind of person who

wakes up in the morning,

works six, seven hours and

chess like a normal

job, and then... Because a lot of them study computers and stuff.
Yeah, exactly. Like, I think about the game all the time.
Like, I play online. I look at games.
I mean, read something. Do you ever play anonymously? I used to do that all the time.
What a bloodbath that must be. But I think I got humbled one time by this Russian grandmaster who asked, somebody else asked me like if a certain account on a certain website was me.
And I was like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know who that is.
And this guy went like, yes, that is you. And he listed up like five other accounts that I thought nobody knew about.
Oh, wow. How did he know? By the way you play? Yeah, I think it's playing strength, playing style.
Because I tried to switch up my openings on different accounts to not make it obvious that it's it's me and i have like a style where i switch that up a lot so it makes it a bit easier but i think you could just tell by um by the playing style so that is crazy these these days i just i play with my um my own name um i like i'm i don't really care about that anymore. Yeah.
So do most professional players study chess all day long at the highest level? I think quite a few do. I mean, I don't know people's day-to-day activities.
You guys don't talk about it? Not that much. The people that I've worked with, they certainly study chess a lot.
But others, I'm not quite sure. The thing is that chess has always still been a bit of a hobby for me.
That once it starts to feel like work, then it's harder for me.

I had a chess coach when I was little.

I went to have sessions once a week, which I loved.

And then he started giving me homework.

And yeah, I told him quickly, I don't like homework.

But I would still spend a lot of time like reading books, playing the things that I still do, but I would do them for fun. And that was the difference between me and the other kids is that they would go to chess practice.
They would maybe even do their homework, but they weren't living and breathing sort of the game that in the way the way that i was like i think about it all the time like i'm thinking about the game while i'm sitting on on this chair like i'm still analyzing a game that i played today like it never goes completely out of out of my mind um and i think a lot of very good chess players do that but like Casual chess players, no, of course. So maybe the thing is discipline versus enthusiasm.
Enthusiasm causes obsession and enjoyment, which probably leads to better retention of information. Whereas just pure discipline for the sake of like, I have to do the work in order to get better.
You're missing this enjoyment. You're missing this enthusiasm for it that you have managed to, although absorbing so much information and playing all the time, you've managed to keep it playful and fun.
I think so. I think this is definitely the way that works for me, maybe for others.
I think for anybody, like if you want to be great great at something you have to be obsessed with it yes and yeah it has to come from it has to come from within like nobody can um yeah maybe in in certain in certain sports you can get you can get that good purely by very very targeted practice and a lot of a lot of hours but um yeah i i think um for me it's just the way that it's just the way that it um that it works and um i do like process the even though like i don't necessarily study like i don't don't deliberately practice all the time i still process the information so it's still whatever the method is it certainly works but it's interesting because you've been able to excel above so many and it makes me wonder like I always am fascinated by some whether it's a Tiger Woods or whatever the athlete is or whatever the game they play what separates the very best from everyone else like i know in martial arts there's a series of factors that have to do with genetics training coaches sparring partners and then ultimately discipline and drive but with chess it's all mental it's physical has nothing to do it. So do you think it's a genetic thing? Do you think you have a unique mind for chess? Do you think it's this balance that you keep with enthusiasm and obsession? Like, what do you think separates you from everyone else? I think it has to be a variety of factors.
I think there's no doubt that I'm incredibly naturally gifted at the game.

Otherwise, I wouldn't have come this far. My dad is incredibly good with numbers.
he started playing chess quite late but became decent like my mother was quite

smart and my sisters are very intelligent too so it's clear that there are some good genes and I just happened to find also an environment early on where I lived near Oslo which had probably the best chess environment there was in Norway, at the very least, where I had access to coaches and I had access to a little training group of other ambitious kids. After that, I think the most i've that i've done is that i haven't really listened to people who want me to do things like a certain way because that's the way things have always been done especially with the soviet chess school that was the dominant one for so many years.
So I've always sort of gone my own way,

tried to have as much fun. Everything has to be about enjoyment.
And yeah, I cannot tell you why, but I just understand the game better than the others. I don't calculate necessarily as far as the other but my intuition like for short lines constantly evaluating is it's just it's just better it's just it's always just such an interesting thing to analyze like high performers you know and just to wonder like what it is that separates high performers when you say your father started playing late how old was he oh i think he started playing um about 14 15 something like that i've in in chess that's that's very but he never he never like took it took it seriously enough right that he wanted to like he pursued it.
As a hobby. As a hobby, yeah.
When you say take it seriously, you mean like you do. Yeah.
This is what makes me think about epigenetics. We still don't exactly know how much information is transferred between parents to children.
And it seems like there's a lot of talents, whether it's like singing talent or sports talent that you have to wonder like is that coming from genes or is that coming from the environment which this child grows up which this person or is it a combination of all those factors like i wonder if someone gets really a very intelligent person gets very good at chess early on i wonder if some information or some proclivity for the game gets transferred. I think the reaction in the chess community, at least with certain people, was more along the lines of how could such a lousy player have such a good son at chess with with my dad.
And the fact is as well that I there are practically no there are many couples of you know like both mother and father are grandmasters in chess but I don't think any of them have had sons or daughters that are grandmasters so the So whereas you see anywhere like in the NBA or the NHL or in football or wherever, like it happens all the time. So I cannot say exactly why that is, but it does suggest that it's not a given, at least with genetics, that your children are going to do the same thing.
I have an alternate theory for that. I wonder if you're a child and your parents are absolutely obsessed with the game if it's annoying.
And you're like, fuck this game. Like, I want to go play in the park and my parents don't even pay attention to me.
This is bullshit. Right.
You know, like, there's a lot of children of alcoholics that will not drink. They won't even try it because they've seen the effects of it.
I wonder that. If it's like you see because chess is an obsessive game.
Like I remember when Howard Stern was playing it. I would listen to him talk about it on the radio and about how he started hiring a coach and he was playing all the time and he's improving his rating.
And I was like, oh, this is eating up your mind. Like it's a game that gets in your bones.
It really does because like the entry is not so easy, right? Like you don't like just get it immediately and you don't necessarily get enjoyment out of it immediately as you start to play. So you have to spend time on it.
And then I think when you're trying to do something hard, then it becomes much more rewarding. And it's easier for that to become an obsession when you start to get that reward.
So the good thing about that controversy with cheating was that I think it elevated the profile of chess because it became mainstream news. It was like a do they like i think there was a positive aspect of it in terms of the publicity of the game do you do agree with that oh yeah for sure um i i think for uh for any for you know for any field of uh that's trying to to achieve something you know with with publicity there's always going to be a little bit of a negative

with what exactly we're connected with, right?

Because everybody knows chess and cheating.

But overall, I think it's been massively positive.

Hopefully, the Netflix thing coming up in a year,

even though like...

Can you explain to people what it's a not netflix untold documentary so basically it's a series of uh sports documentaries and they're doing that it's not something that i like wanted to necessarily be be part of but i do recognize the fact that these things raise the profile of of of the game and and you see now like every everywhere people people like it just is showing up in people's algorithms on youtube tiktok instagram everywhere so it's just like much more in the in the zeitgeist than it used to be yeah it's it certainly showing up on mine. It shows up on mine all the time yours, right? Oh, yeah, but you've always been a giant chess fan.
Well, it's actually a newer thing But when I when I got into it, it was just everything now. It's what I do Right before bed.
I fall asleep. Usually I fall asleep during actual games online on my phone You're driving him crazy crazy.
How could that happen? I'm exhausted. What do you do when you wake up? Oh, that's the total opposite.
You wake up and you lost. Yeah.
No, I wake up and I look at the board and it said you resigned because I went over my time or whatever. I just ran out of time.
How many times have you resigned? It happens in embarrassing a lot amount. How I fall asleep now is playing chess.
But what you will appreciate is that when I fall asleep playing chess, like when I fall asleep, I'm still playing the game in my dreams sometimes. And sometimes the game will go all night and it'll be like this never-ending game and pieces will pop back up that are already gone.
That sounds amazing. Like I would like, obviously that would never happen to me.
And like, I, I, I, you know, I like to play a game of chess on my, on my, my phone or my iPad, whenever I have some, whenever I have some time, especially like if I know that I have 15 minutes or whatever. And then if something comes up, like my wife tells me, like I have to be somewhere, I have to do something.
It's like, can you just finish the game? I'm like, no, I cannot resign the game. What are you talking about? Yeah.
Yeah, obviously that's different though. Yeah, you can't just resign.
That's no, you gotta ride that bitch out. Yeah.
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Zero Day is now playing only on Netflix. Yeah, that would be psychologically torturous, right? Yeah, especially if I'm playing somebody who is a little bit of a rival.
It's like, yeah, no. Right.
That's not going to happen. No chance.
Because every time I lose games, it's a little bit of a story, right, in the chess world. So I prefer it to happen as seldom as possible.
I played a little bit of chess when I was young, but I never really got into it. But my real introduction where I got fascinated with chess was actually at a pool hall.
Because people in the pool hall would play chess sometimes, but there was this one guy who went to jail. And in jail, he learned how to play chess with his head in his mind.
And then there was a young kid who was a grandmaster who was like 16, 17 years old, somewhere around then, really, really good chess player who kind of like lost his way and started hanging around in pool halls and gambling and being a weirdo. And I watched these two guys play chess with just words.
And I was like, what are you doing? Like what? I was like, I think I was 22 or 23 at the time. And I was like, what are you doing? And they were explaining to me that they're playing chess, memorizing the board in their head.
And I'm like, that's fucking crazy. And then I saw a video of you blindfolded playing how many people how many how many people did you play was the most people you've ever played blindfolded i think i've played 12 uh but the world record is something like 50 it's that's that's crazy 12 you've played 12 people blindfolded yeah um for me that's as long as people are the people I'm playing are kind of decent at chess that actually kind of makes that makes it easier because it's easier to store the games when I recognize the patterns and so on when people start making weird moves that I cannot really recognize this is another one actually this Oh, so this is another one, actually.
This is a blindfold-timed symbol. Like, there are fewer games, but what's difficult about these is that the moves do not come to me in a sequence.
So, like, the presenter will tell me, on board 2, E takes D5, and then all of a sudden, on board 1, E6, and then on board 2 again, and so on. So that makes it a bit...
Oh, so you have to jump back and forth. So in the other games, there's a sequence where the player, even though if they know what move they're going to take, they must wait until their turn.
Exactly. That's kind of a normal way of playing a simul.
I think the last time that I played a proper blindfold simul was at an event in Vienna back in, I think, 2015. And then I had some very nice but spicy Chinese food before the game.
I sat down and like my stomach was acting up. I couldn't think.
So I I played for 10 minutes. I realized that I cannot do this.
I like, I ran away for 15 minutes and then I came back and I finished the game. But ever since that, it feels like I've done it and now it just seems incredibly hard to do again.
Do you prepare when you're doing something like this, when you're getting ready to do a blindfolded multi-game thing? Not really, because if my mind is on, then it's really not that hard, I feel. So, no.
The preparation that I do is right there. I see my opponents.
So like I assign a certain face to a certain seat, like a certain number and so on. So that's just about what I do.
So you assign their face and you think of their face as they're playing. Yeah.
Face like number one, it's that position. Right.
Yeah. And so on.
And are you, what are you seeing in your mind when you're envisioning the table? When you're, when you're looking at the board, are you, are you merely thinking of positions? Are you actually thinking of the pieces? Like like how are you breaking it down no i just see the chessboard in my head just see a completely like 3d chessboard in your head yeah so it's um and then when i'm playing a simul i just really think about one at a time and i kind of store the others um away and um but that's so crazy like when you five, six moves in and you're thinking of all these pieces moving around and you've got it remembered, you've completely memorized each position of 12 different boards. Yeah, so like the difficult part of it that where things sometimes go wrong is that, so generally I remember all the games that I've played but I don't remember every move.
I remember like in broad strokes what happened and this is what can happen in these blindfold games as well sometimes. Like I can remember everything that's going on but maybe there's a pawn on the side that I cannot remember if it moved one square or not.
That's the thing that can be difficult. And I do...
We used to have these blindfold, like, professional tournaments, actually, that used to be, like, both fun, but also totally exhausting. And then we would play on a computer.
So we'd have like a blank chessboard where we would just click from one square to another. And then whenever your opponent moved, their move would pop up on the screen.
And I've had, and also the software will tell you if you're making an illegal move so I've had people like lose track and then you see them just clicking phonetically trying to figure out what the position was like there was one guy whom I played like he thought his rook was on a certain file and if it was on that file he would be able to save a draw so I think he tried every single rook move on that file, hoping that the rook was there. But obviously I knew that it wasn't.
But yeah, overall I feel like, honestly, blindfold chess is a bit of a party trick in the sense that for the very top players, it's not that hard. But obviously for non-serious chess players, it seems incredibly hard.
But I'm sure that, for instance, solving Ruby's cube is really, really easy for those who know how to do it quickly, right? Yeah. But it still looks incredibly impressive for outsiders.
Have you seen they used a computer with AI to do a Rubik's Cube in less than a second? No, I didn't see that. Oh, wow.
Yeah, see if you can find it, Jamie. It's crazy.
It just goes, brr, and just spins it. I've never figured that shit out.
That's crazy. There is a sequence of moves.
If you follow a sequence

of moves, you can actually get it to do it

automatically. Huh.
Yeah. Someone

explained it to me once and they did it and I was like

what? I don't remember what it was

because I don't give a fuck. Yeah.
It was just like

eight times this way, eight times that way,

eight times this way. You just keep doing it and then

eventually it'll be all flattened out

at a certain point in time. Wow.

Yeah. But this computer does it like

You do Rubik's Cube too? No,

no, no, no. I'm talking out of my ass

Thank you. It'll be all flattened out at a certain point in time Yeah, but this computer does it like you do Rubik's Cube too.
No no no I am I'm talking out of my ass like I

Think the world record is only like three seconds or something like it's it's something absolutely

Insane imagine the time you could have spent building a business, raising a family.

You're the fucking world record Rubik's Cube guy. All the same color.

Green, red.

So dumb.

Yeah.

Well, we all have to spend our time.

Watch this computer do it.

Wow.

How crazy is that?

Ready?

Ready?

Go.

Yeah.

Less than a second.

Wow.

That is crazy.

Show it again in real time.

So give up, kids.

Give up.

Give up the computer figuring it out.

That's a dumb game.

But do you play other games as well? No, not that much. My parents sort of brainwashed me when I was young into thinking that computer games are no fun.
Really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you're a grown man now.
You've realized that's a lie. Yeah, yeah, I have, but it's a duty fucking people up no the thing is like um the thing is like i actually got a um i got a playstation recently uh but like my my wife is playing gta and all of these fps games and i'm like playing some you know chill fifa or, but, but the thing about that is that, um, uh, I didn't really spend that much time on those, those things when I was, I was little, um, which I think was a good thing.
Like I was doing, I was doing some sports and I was doing a lot of, a lot of chess, not so much school, but I, I kind of found time for, for, um, everything else. And for everything else.
And I think it was an important part of my chess education as well, that I think some of the kids today are missing, that I actually learned chess on a physical board. I was able to practice from a fairly young age playing online, but I wasn't allowed to use the computer for more than a couple of hours a week, right? So I had to spend that really well playing chess.
Otherwise, I would just sit there with my board, with my books, and, you know, try and figure things out. Yeah, the thing about video games is the narrative was always video games are a huge waste of time.
And if you do it, you're not going to get anywhere in life. The problem with that is now people make a lot of money playing video games.
And they've also shown that there's some benefits from video games that leak over into other things. Like, for instance, they found out that surgeons who play video games regularly make, what is it, like 25% 37% less errors that's a bit like I would feel like if there was a factor in medical school and they said well if you do not do this you will make 37% more mistakes they would force you to engage in that whatever it is it's like whatever whatever particular discipline that was like if you want to be a surgeon You must do this.
I would say if you want to be a surgeon you should fucking play video games because these people are 37% less Likely to screw up an operation That's why I'm not a surgeon But I'm saying it's like video games are not necessarily a waste of time and they've also shown there's cognitive benefits that can be uh gotten from playing video games on a regular basis things that which does make sense but it just it seems like a frivolous pursuit whereas chess is like a noble and very respected pursuit i'm glad you say that like we've we that. That is what chess has, though, that it is very respected among the general population, and it does have that different standing from a lot of other games.
I'm not here to shit on video games, for sure. I know, like you do, that there are studies that show that it's that it can be be helpful i think with with anything um if you obsess over something the only thing you will become good at is that particular thing like i have with um with uh with chess i just think for me specifically um for me specifically it was probably a um a good thing that that made me just sit and focus on chess rather than do all sorts of other things.

Oh, most certainly.

Because video games are very, very addictive.

I had to stop playing video games.

We used to have a whole local area network at our old studio.

We'd all play Quake.

And it was a real problem. I just wanted to end the podcast so I could go play Quake.
And then we'd play for hours. And eventually got to a point where I was like, okay, I got to quit again.
Just cold turkey, never again, leave it alone. Because they're just too fun.
And if you have other things, you have obligations, like chess, like you're an actual professional chess player, Call of Duty or whatever you're playing, Quake, it's going to eat your time. I remember like when I first moved out, you know, I was technically a chess professional, but I didn't have a lot of time to, yeah, I had a lot of time to kill when I was home.
So, and I got myself a PlayStation, played a ton of FIFA back then. And there was a GameStop near me that they made a lot of money on me just buying new controllers all the time because I would throw them into the wall.
But I have that same personality that I become obsessed with things. And then I just have to quit cold turkey.
That's the only way that works. Yeah, I think, I mean, this is why I've avoided golf.
And like Tony's big on golf and so is Jamie. It's like I see what it is.
I'm sure I would love it. But I don't have that time, the time during the day.
Well, I can tell you that I always thought, well, I wouldn't say that, but I always thought that I would get into golf later in life. And then I decided more or less a year ago that I was going to start.
And now I am obsessed and it's all I want to do. I can 100% relate.
But my wife knows that I'm so happy when I come back from golf

that it's better if I get to do it quite often.

Yeah.

Even if you fake being happy so you can keep doing it.

No, no, no.

They say that's ruining Canelo Alvarez.

There's been a lot of criticism in the boxing world and particularly in some of his promoters and things along those lines where they've criticized his – he's obsessive. He plays every day, even when he's in camp.
Yeah, it's a tricky thing. If they do that with him, and I obviously see them do it with Trump, but you have to golf to understand what golfing does to you.
It appears from the outside that people are drinking and smoking pot and having a good old time out there and giggling around, farting around with their friends. But the touch grass meditative element, it truly is like he was saying, like I'm in such a crazy good mood mood after golf everybody at the comedy club can notice it like it's like an upper it gives you a massive burst of energy so like the the what am i thinking of the uh you know just the bad reputation that golf has like i would want my president golfing a couple a week, knowing the effects that it gives you a much clearer mind, a big burst of energy.
You would think it would be exhausting walking around the woods or grass for four hours, but for some reason it's totally the opposite. It's, it's whether it's the sun, the grass, the, this, the, that, the differential going from a powerful thing to a mid-range thing to the delicate touch and accuracy of putting, these repetitive things.
For some reason, it's a mind clearer and kind of an energy giver. Whereas video games and other things make you depressed.
I don't, you know, it's almost impossible to be down or depressed after golfing. Well, it's certainly a stimulating game, right? Because it's hand-eye coordination, calculation, you know, managing the lay of the land, the way the rolls of the hills are, and all those factors.
I think like this is something that I think people genuinely need life Yeah, and I think it's one of the reasons why people respect chess so much is because they know how difficult it is And they know that all this is going on and that they see you two just staring at the board looking at these pieces and calculating this Insane number of possibilities that could emit from each individual move. It's like that stimulation, when someone gets good at a game, I think it's very valuable for you.
And I think that can apply to all sorts of things in life. So I agree with you.
I would want the president to play golf too. I'd want him to find something, whatever it is.
Find a thing that you can excel at other than just being the president. Yeah, even even if it was call of duty.
Yeah, if I wouldn't want that the president going fuck We had that it was George W. Bush and there was no video games Stark yeah, it is dark well, I mean they literally use PlayStation fucking controllers when they were using drones I don't know if they still do it now.
I think now they have more sophisticated setups. But one of the reasons why they were using them was because so many people were accustomed to those.
You get kids that have been playing Madden 10 hours a day for 15 fucking years. And then you give them the same controller.
And they're like, oh, yeah, I could fucking drop some bombs on people like not problem at all that's that's horrible it's dark yeah and all of a sudden like these kills that you have in a video game like if you think of it in the same way like it well it really haunts those people apparently there's a very specific type of PTSD that drone operators get that's it's because they see the people sometimes for days in advance So they're doing surveillance. They're waiting for the moment when they get the green light They see these people they see them with their families They're watching them from above and then and then they drop the bombs on them And then they cease to exist and this is happening on completely the other side of the world Yeah, they just press X on the control.
Yeah. But if you want to get good at that, you probably play video games.
It's a job for everybody out there, Magnus. I'm also trying to think, could you get surgeons to be drone operators? Probably doesn't work that way.
No, probably doesn't work that way. At best, surgeons, just whatever hand-eye coordination that they have is probably so intricate that they could probably excel at anything.

They'd probably get good at video games.

Like a very good surgeon who's never played video games would probably get really good at video games really quickly because the communication between your hands and your mind. There's also probably a tricky part of that stat where the younger people are the ones playing the video games that probably wouldn't slip up with their hands as easily as an older surgeon that has never played video games right yes right right right yeah that's a good point it's it's you know it's interesting that chess is uniquely the game that's respected like probably out of all even if you play golf you're a fuck up.
You say you play chess, like, oh, that must be an intelligent man. It's probably the most uniquely rewarded game in terms of the way people respect it in society.
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Don miss it this is going to be wild download call of duty warzone for free and i'll see you in verdansk rated m for mature we're very lucky that it has this unique position whether that's deserved um i don't know but there's just something about the fact that it's you know it's a

very very simple game um but it's it's still so infinitely uh difficult the thing now the thing now though is that we're trying to actually make it a bit more more difficult for a classical form of chess

because now computers are so strong

preparation

has gone so far

that classical form of chess because now computers are so strong preparation has gone so far that the thought of like sitting down at the board and just thinking on your own from the very get-go it's not it's not there anymore anybody who's really good at chess like they anybody can anybody can, can learn the best openings, like very quickly. Even if you go like 10, 20 years ago, you could play, you could play, for instance, in the chess Olympiad, which is the, which is the biggest team nation tournament in the world.
And you could play against the best player from, let's say, Colombia. And, you know, you would know that they have certain skills, but they might not have the same set of openings, right? Now, all of these, like, there are kids everywhere, and they just, like, they know their stuff so well.
So now we like testing out new formats one that we call freestyle which is basically there are 960 starting possible starting positions if you shuffle the pieces on the first rank and basically like you start out you just draw the position 10 minutes before the game no preparation whatsoever and you basically

start with like in gaming a new map every single game um so that's sort of for the traditionalists that's not like the same the same game so like there are some people who don't like it but for the professionals it's an it's a chance like to um to use um to use their their skills because otherwise chess is moving like it's become becoming faster like chess used to be used to be an art science everything with the way things are now it's it's just very fast and it's all games sports and so on like i feel like with with thinking from the very first move you're bringing some of the other factors um back as well i think i think it's really unique about today is that kids today who are coming up are not just studying from books and from coaching but you can watch so many great games instantaneously anytime you want. This is what's so unique about today.
And I think it applies to all sports. I think it applies to all games.
I think it applies to stand-up comedy as well. I think it's one of the reasons why the younger guys are so good.
It's like you get to see very high-level stuff, which gets into your mind that this is how to play at a very early age. And you can be obsessed and just absorb so much more.
Yeah. And you see there are such different approaches as well, even with the kids.
Like I had a training camp a few years ago with a kid called Alireza Firouza. He plays for France now, but he's from Iran originally.
I think he was about 14 then. My chess coach had recommended that we bring him in because he said that this is the most talented kid out there.
So we have this camper. Typically, everybody has their laptop, and there's a chessboard in the middle where you sort of um and you sort of look at your own thing and then some things together on the board and you you throw out ideas mostly for for openings but also sometimes other little exercises and so on and this kid he would have his have his laptop where he would um where he would analyze a certain position and then he would play games for money on that same site at the same time so that he could buy cloud engine times because the very best engines, they're stronger if they're in the cloud than from your own laptop, generally.
So he would buy time for that by playing games, like, one-minute games on that server. He would play five-minute games on another server, and he would analyze with us on the board, and he was still, following everything.
Like he had no problems whatsoever just being there. So like, it's just, yeah, that's one way of doing it.
Like he basically became one of the best players in the world by just constantly playing chess all the time and mostly like really quick games. And then you have the current classical world champion from India, Gukesh.
Like he doesn't play casual games at all. He just studies his ass off all the time.
And he's also like he's not good at rabbit chess. He's not good at blitz.
He's not good at other forms. but he has made all his studies about

c***** at rabbit chess he's not good at blitz he's not good at other other forms uh but he has he has made all his study studies about uh classical chess he didn't even own like chess software on his computer before he was like 13. Wow.
And he was a grandmaster. Wow.
At that time um but it's it's interesting to see that there are such different ways to develop even even these days I think I just think it's fascinating human beings capacity to excel at things and that you really only know when someone pushes it a little bit further like this guy playing these all these games simultaneously yeah know what I mean? It's like when you when if everybody's doing it one way if everybody's only playing You know a few games a day and hanging out like you'll probably all stay at the same level But if you got one fucking psychopath in the group that's online and is playing and is reading books and is That guy's gonna pass everybody and then everybody else realizes like oh that's possible you i could have gotten as good as him i better really bear down yeah because you you could also see that in these guys playing style the guy who has been playing like constantly all the time from when he was little he has fantastic instincts especially with the little time he just knows where the pieces go and like he's the only one of the kids who has that kind of feeling um the indian guy on the other hand from the way he studies he's like during games like he's meticulous he calculates like he sees every position as a problem he has to solve more than, oh, what does my intuition tell me? Oh, I'll do this. It's like for him, it's more, well, this is possible.
This is possible. Let me like try and see this all the way through.
So it's just, yeah, it's just very, very and um they they call it like the tortoise and the hare sometimes and then uh in certain situations the tortoise will win and other situations the hare will win right so in so there's different types of tournaments and there's some tournaments that have no time limit for moves?

There's always a time limit.

What's a traditional time limit?

What it used to be in chess was you'd have two hours for 40 moves, then you'd have an

hour for the next 20 moves and then half an hour for the rest of the game.

So a maximum of seven hours.

And that form is still being played. of the game, so a maximum of seven hours.
And

that form

is still being played.

And then you have

faster forms of chess, which is

blitz chess, which is usually five or three

minutes, and rapid chess,

which is somewhere

from 10 to

30 minutes.

Before you were known, did you ever go to Washington Square

Park and play those hustlers?

No, I actually went there in 2010, but I think some people recognized me back then as well. I think it's a bit of a myth, though, how good they are.
They're like, okay, but they're not like... Your level.
No, they're not grandmaster level there was one guy though i don't remember i don't remember what was um uh what's the name of like it's up by um you know columbia university there's a park up there where they're playing chess as well there i played against the guy uh who played like a very strange opening as well. Like.
He put just a couple of pawns, one square forward, and then he started developing his pieces very slowly. So at first I thought this guy has no idea what he's doing.
Then it turned out like he actually had a system. So after 10, 15 moves, I was in a lot of trouble.
And then the game became super concrete and tactical and I won. But it struck me that this guy had I think he just played in a park all his life, so he had developed a certain system that was actually kind of effective if you don't know what you're doing against it.
So that was kind of interesting. He was fairly old, so I'm sure he'd played chess his whole life without ever learning any kind of opening theory or something like that.
He just had, yeah, he was doing his own thing. That's fascinating.
Can you ever learn something from people that have an unorthodox approach like that? Oh yeah, for sure. It's happened several times.
There was like my dad used to play a ton of chess at home like he used to have a home office and then certain times he'd appear to be focused in his work but I knew like a certain look in his eye which told me that he was actually playing chess so I would go over and and watch and then at some point where I was already a lot better than him he played a certain opening as as white and I told him like what what is this opening like where did you learn this and he said well you taught me the very same opening but with the black pieces so i thought i was going to play it as white like with with um one tempo more right because you're playing you're moving first i was like i'm like i never like i'm one of the best players in the world and and I never thought of that. So I actually took up that line, and I used it with success against some of the best players in the world.
Wow. So I don't know if that variation has a name.
Like, I've seen some other players play it afterwards as well, but I just call it the Henry Carlson variation. That's really interesting.
Your dad must be pretty proud of that. He is very proud.
It's funny, though, that my dad and my sisters, two of my sisters, they played a bit of competitive chess as well. I think at some point in time, they wanted to learn a couple of openings, so I taught them a couple of openings, and I think all of them just never played anything else, basically.
So they certainly didn't have the same kind of passion to study, but I'm glad I was able to push them into some decent lines. How do you decide what opening to choose? And do you ever decide an opening and go, fuck, I shouldn't have done that one? Yeah, yeah, sometimes.
Honestly, sometimes I don't know what to do. So I just randomize.
Because I think at a certain time, like you might think that against this opponent, you should play a little bit more of an aggressive opening, but then maybe I feel good about my tournament standings. I don't want to mess that up.
So it's easy to go for a safer approach when like the optimal approach would be a bit more aggressive. And then if you randomize it, then you will occasionally go for the more aggressive approach.
So that's what I sometimes do. It's just I randomize it, and then I just sort of accept the outcome, and it makes me more unpredictable.
It makes me harder to prepare against as well. So that's what I sometimes do.
It's not going to be out there, but it's going to be between two or three options that I think are roughly equivalent. They're just stylistically different.
So when you say randomized, how many openings do you have that you pursue on a regular basis? oh, it's hard to say. Probably with whites I have like five or six options that I can go to, but only like two or three that I feel really good about.
And I think similarly with black. black.
So, and then when you randomize, you just go in your head and one of them stands

out for you and you say, okay, this is it. No, I just like have an app on my phone.
Oh, really? I just roll the dice. Oh, wow.
Wow. Wow.
And I think, honestly, a lot of people could benefit from that because you agonize over these minute decisions. You spend a lot of mental energy before a certain game agonizing over what opening you're going to play.
And if you know that you're going to make a decent choice, but you leave all the agonizing to... There's nothing because it's left to chance.
It makes it a lot easier. That makes sense.
Now, you were saying mental energy. You were talking about the spicy Chinese food incident, but do you normally have a method of, like, when you eat, vitamins you take? Is there certain things that you do to optimize your your clarity yeah like if i'm playing if i'm playing an early early afternoon game for instance like starting at one i try to eat like one big meal uh before that which is generally uh like a big omelet with some some kind of salad and um but you eat pretty clean before a big yeah i usually i usually do um sometimes like after games like i will eat something like even some desserts and so on uh but before the games i try and keep it keep it fairly fairly clean and i actually learned that when i was when I was little, like sometimes my parents, they were generally quite strict about sweets and so on.
But sometimes I would eat sweets during tournament. Then my blood sugar would drop like crazy and I would start making mistakes.
And so that's something that I learned quite quickly that I shouldn't do do you ever mess around with vitamins or nootropics or anything like that things nutrients that help memory no I think um I think it's a little bit about the way that I was was raised like I never take medicine unless I I kind have to. I don't really take supplements or anything like that.
So I probably should. Like it's not a bad idea.
Like my wife is half American. Like she's completely different.
Like she takes five kinds of vitamins every every single day she's very meticulous about it but yeah I don't know I've never just get her to make you up some little packets yeah I think it probably have an impact on you I mean it's extraordinary if you think about how good you are without it like any little thing that could give you a very slight edge and I think that vitamins for sure give you a slight edge, particularly in nootropics. There's a bunch of different vitamins that have been shown through clinical trials to improve cognitive performance.
You know, theanine, there's acetylcholine, a bunch of different things that enhance memory that are essentially just nutrients. What's the new thing that people are doing? Like carotene or something like that? Ketamine? No, no, no.
Not ketamine. No, no, no.
It's not ketamine. Creatine? Creatine.
Creatine. Creatine, yes.
Creatine was a bodybuilding supplement that was almost akin to steroids in the 1990s. People would think it was cheating, then they realized, well, it's just a component of food.
But one of the things that creatine does that's very extraordinary is it aids in performance when you're sleep deprived. So if you ever find yourself sleep deprived and you have to do something where you have to use your mind, creatine is a fantastic supplement for that.
Well, I mean woke up today and like i think my my watch said it was that my sleep was like i got 15 like i slept for five hours but i got 15 minutes of REM sleep like it was really really bad so that's what i could have yeah i could have used that um because i was playing a chess tournament earlier today so i could i could have used that but yeah creatine is something that everybody should take. Men, women, children, everybody should take creatine.
It's a really good supplement, super safe. And it aids in strength and muscle recovery and stuff like that, but it also has a lot of cognitive benefits.
Which is generally just like a very good, safe supplement to take. What does it say here, Jane? Cognitive function.
Studies suggest that creatine supplementation may improve cognitive function, including memory, attention, and reasoning. It may increase brain energy levels by boosting endocene triphosphate production, ATP, which is essential for brain function.
Creatine has antioxidant and anti-inflammatory properties that may protect brain cells from damage caused by oxidative stress and neurotoxins. It does a so it does a lot of different things if you google it there's a ton of different benefits i take it in gummy form i take creatine gummies every day they're delicious it's easy i just pop a bunch five milligrams i don't know we have any of those try creates here i don't think so yeah i think i have them out there um but they're great you know it's easy i put a bag in my car, take them all the time.
I've noticed a difference. I just think with a guy like you, where your brain is everything.
But you're kicking ass, so why listen to me? No, no, no. Eat cheeseburgers and fuck around and see what happens.
No, but it is the thing, though. On certain days, I sort of just accept that.
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See terms at pick6.draftkings.com slash promos. know my brain is not going to work as good work as good and it's it's it's frustrating especially if you got a if you got a big game and you know that you're starting down to zero because your brain is not working the way it's supposed to be yeah i feel that with podcasting all the time and the real danger is if i do that if my brain's not on full tilt and i'm talking to a scientist, and I'm like, oh, we have to talk about quantum physics.
I have to have good questions. I have to be able to follow what you're saying because it's so esoteric.
It's weird that the brain just doesn't always work exactly how you want it to. Honestly, chess is one of the worst things to do sleep deprived

because I think creativity

usually

is enhanced when you're

not feeling well, when you're sleep deprived

but that's generally not what you need

in chess. You need to minimize

mistakes. You need precision.

All of my intuition,

all of that, is just so much

worse when I'm not feeling on top of my game. Do you have a specific thing you do when you're feeling not on top of your game? Do you double check things in your mind? Do you have a process you follow? I just try to play a simpler game where it's not as where it's not as complicated really.

And when you're feeling good then you go for it?

No, honestly when I feel like good I don't think about these things. It's just a state of

it's just a state of flow where I know I know how much risk to take like I just

yeah. So what is the mindset? Like if you're in a world championship game and it's down to these, like, what is the state of mind like when you're in the middle of it? Honestly, when I'm at my best, I'm just, like, pure laser focused and I'm just calm and not thinking about anything other than just in the moment just in the moment yeah just in the work is already done you already know the game so now it's just reacting and moving and calculating yeah i mean i i had um i had a game and 20 last classical world championship i played in 2021 where um the first five games were drawn.
Honestly,

like I could have probably been down at that point as well. Sixth game was a super, super long game, almost eight hours.
And I think for the last hour and a half, two hours, I was pretty short on time. but I remember like I was just so focused and so calm and afterwards I was just like yeah I could have kept going forever like I was just there um and it was exactly what I needed I ended up grinding out grinding out win and and in in those classical games like once you get a lead like that is so big because it's so hard to win, actually win games at that level.

That level of preparation. So that was really big.
But yeah, I've only had, I feel like, a few days where I feel like I'm just completely in the moment. Usually it's a bit more messy than that.
But like when it happens, it's just, yeah, the best feeling. That's amazing that it's only been a few days where you've been fully in the moment.
I'm rarely happy after I play. I'm happier now.
Like I'm honestly like my standards for myself like are a little bit lower have

gone down a little bit the older I've

gotten

because I sort of accept

that I

don't

have my brain is not as fast

as it used to be so I'm going to

have occasional letdowns

so my top level

is like I think

as good as it's

ever been or at least very very close to um but like the average level is it's just it's just too hard when your brain is not that fast anymore uh but but but yeah generally i um i'm i'm always thinking well Yeah, I could have always done something better. You always miss some things, but I always feel like, yeah, there are avoidable mistakes that I'm still making.
So this, as you've gotten older, this lowering expectations, is that a recognition of the fact that being hard on yourself over minute details doesn't benefit you and that you've just had a more healthy approach? Yeah, I think so. It just makes everything a bit easier.
Also, honestly, like the randomizing opening choices has made things easier as well. Everything just to sort of, the pressure a bit.
Have you ever consulted a mental coach or someone who works with people on mindsets to try to capture what is happening when you are in that complete total flow state of laser focusness and try to recreate that?

Because there's a bunch of different mind coaches that will tell you for a bunch of different pursuits that what you have to do is when you get to that state, whatever that state is, recognize that you're there. and then try to get a map of the territory and try to will yourself back into that thing.
But then there's another school of thought that says, no, it just has to happen organically. And that you just have, you just need to be obsessed and focused and take care of yourself and meditate and just when it comes, it's going to come, but it just, you have accept that it's a gift, and it's just not always going to be there.
Yeah, I'm definitely in the latter camp. I've talked to people who have suggested mental coaches plenty of times, both in the past and more recently as well.
I've just always been worried that somebody is going to mess something up in my head. Paralysis by analysis.
Yeah, that's really what it is for me. So I feel at some point, I'm just like more or less content with the way things are that most days that I'm playing, I'm going to be fairly good.
On some days, I'm going to be at my very best. Other days, I'm going to be very far from my best.
And it's sort of the way it is. I'm definitely much more open to doing things to prevent me from having those very worst days because that those are the ones that really um that really hurt you especially now that we're playing a lot of faster tournaments uh where there are where there are um knockouts where basically like if you have one bad day you're you're out and it doesn't matter um like back in the days with classical tournaments like you could you have a really bad day, but then you can always bounce back.
But nowadays it's not that easy. Do you ever try to map out what are the factors that lead you to hit that state, that flow state? Do you ever try to think about your day? Like what did I do? What did I eat? How did I sleep? Did I avoid toxic people around me? Did I stay offline?

Like, what did I do that allowed me to get to that spot? Yeah, I mean, doing everything sort of right before the game definitely helps. Like, getting good sleep, like reading a book instead of being on some sort of device before I go to sleep, then just focusing as little as possible on chess before the game definitely.
Really, little as possible? Yeah. Because you want it to be fresh in your mind, you want it to be something exciting? Yeah, I just wanna have like two or three ideas of what I'm going to play and not...
Like, I just don't want to, like, use mental energy that I could have used on the game before. Right, right, right.
So, I think one of my better tournaments that I played, it's... I used to play every year at this seaside resort in the Netherlands and it's in the middle of winter so it's not very resort-like.
It's just rainy and windy and there's basically nothing there except those big tournaments that's been there for 80 years and it's for three weeks every January. So for me, there's not a lot to do.
So what I would do every day is I'd wake up, I'd go for a walk, and then I would watch like 30 to 45 minutes of NBA highlights from the day before, look at chess for 15 minutes, whatever my coach has sent me of preparation that we discussed the day before, eat and then go play. And that worked really, really well.
It's just keeping it as simple as possible, honestly. So get inspired bit a little bit of energy from watching nba highlights right yeah just a tiny amount of information from the coach just like get your brain locked in but not too much energy don't focus too much on it yeah a lot of people like they do they will spend three four hours preparing on a game on that very day.
It can be beneficial if your opponent goes into specifically the lines that you prepared and so on. But overall, I think having a fresh mind is so important.
And I'm also like, even if I haven't had the perfect preparation, I'm really good at just blocking everything out, forgetting everything that's happened and just focusing there and then. But it's still not as good, of course, as just being in a good state of mind.
Do you ever get to the point where you feel burnout, where you want to just take days off, a week off, and not think about chess, not touch a chessboard? Or is it just constantly playing in the background no matter what you do? But I really love it. Why take time off? Yeah, why take...
No, no, no. I'm fine with taking breaks from tournaments and so on.
But having like at least days, several days in a row without like looking at a chess game or I mean, I don't have to play every day, but not having a... Yeah, not looking at anything, like not reading some chess stuff or like, yeah, I mean, it's my favorite hobby.
So I don't, yeah, I don't see why I would want to do that. That's probably why you're one of the best of all time, if not the best.
I mean, that's a beautiful approach, right? If you can find a thing that you love so much that even though you do it all the time and you've done it since you were a child, you're still obsessing and loving it. Yeah, I do have those moments where I just take a breath and think about how lucky that I am.
And there are just moments where I just sort of, I wouldn't say rediscover my love for the game, but I just think like, I'm obsessed with this game and I'm completely fine with that. Well, that's a beautiful way to live your life.
If people can find a thing like that in their life, that really is the key to an enjoyable life. If the thing that you do all the time you're obsessed with, and we talk about it all the time at our comedy club, we're all in the green room.
We're like, we are so lucky that this is actually what we do for a job. And pretty much everybody who's good at it is obsessed with it, and they think about it all the time.
It's kind of the only way. But I need time off sometimes because I think that's different because it's always different ideas and different things you're working on.
Sometimes you need time just to refresh your perspective. But with a game like chess, I guess you don't really need time off.
No, I think, again, it's different for different people. But I don't know.
I don't feel like it takes away energy. It just gives me joy and energy when I do that.
Like I will just, on a certain day, I will just log into chess.com and observe random people play. And that is something I can do and be very happy about it.
Yeah, it's just the way I am. Well, you're just very fortunate.
you found a thing that you really locked into it's uh that that perspective is very important for people to recognize like the perspective of gratitude and of appreciation that you're so fortunate to have found something people go their whole lives and never find a thing that they're truly absolutely passionate about and for a guy guy like you, I mean, it's a shiny example for people, I think. I think that's one of the things that I enjoy the most about super high performers is that they provide an insane amount of inspiration to other people.
When someone sees you play chess at the highest level or sees, you know, Michael Jordan play basketball or whatever it is, you get this feeling of what human beings can do. And it elevates your own expectations of yourself and of people around you.
Yeah, I think I've thought about it many times, like, what am I actually like doing with my life that's that's useful to other people. And it always comes back to that every time that I hear that people are inspired by what I do.
Maybe it helped them through a difficult time to watch my games and to get in to rediscover or find the love for the game. That's really that's really nice and again in the process i'm just doing doing what i what i love right and that's that's really what people want to want to see for me it's just competing and doing well at chess so that's that's also what i'm giving us as often as possible well that's what people want out of life is something that they love that they do

That they're very good at and they get recognized for it

And when a person like you does it and does it publicly and it's inspiring. It's a great gift for other people

I mean, it truly is who's been

like

Are there particular players that you really enjoy watching play and particular styles that you enjoy? I think my favorite probably player of all time is sort of the young Kasparov before he became world champion. the thing is like what I find fascinating about that is that he played with a style that was so unique and so dynamic that I know that I could never replicate it.
It's just not the way that I play. So that's something i i admire a lot usually i'm whatever i'm into like be it soccer or golf or basketball or whatever like i admire like what people do not necessarily like it's about the people themselves um so that's the way it has been for me in in chess as, that I try to learn from people's games and what they do

and when I talk to them.

And I've been very fortunate about that,

being able to study with Gary back in the day

and Anand, who was the world champion before me.

Because it's only then when you study, you talk to them, you understand how good they really are and how much they understand. For instance, with Anna and I, I had a training session in 2008 where we had both played a tournament where I'd done reasonably well and he had sort of, towards the end had mailed it in but he was preparing for the classical world championship so we i think i had two days off and he was living outside madrid and so i went to madrid for a couple of days because the other tournament was in the north of spain then i went to his house and as soon as like that training camp started it's like something just switched with him and he was he was just so focused we played a bunch of training games and from being this guy who seemed completely disinterested in this other tournament all of a sudden like crushing me.
Like, he had a massive plus score in our games,

and it felt like everything we analyzed, he was just,

he just had a much deeper understanding of the game.

It seemed that he was faster tactically and everything.

And it made me, like, appreciate, like, how good he actually was.

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When you are playing someone like that, you're getting your ass kicked. Does this inspire you and enact change in your game? Or does it does it not change your game? You just do the same game, but more focused? Yeah, I think it's more of more of the latter.
It was just a reality check for me because I thought at that point that i was um i was ranked i think third in the world i had very briefly been ranked number one um already at that point like for for a week and i thought before that i thought i was maybe one of the best two three players in the world and it made me realize that i wasn't and that maybe i was able to have better results than my actual level because of because of youth energy and and optimism right and that made me just yeah it just made me realize that i have a lot a lot to learn and that i should be i should be patient and not expect everything to to sort of um to

sort of come that fast um because at that point i'd had a year of more or less constant rise i was yeah it's just winning uh winning tournaments every time i would lose a game i was just believe that I could

strive back immediately

and

I realized I would lose a game. I would just believe that I could strive back immediately.
And I realize now that I was just, I was delusional. I thought I was a lot better than what I was.
And that was probably why I was having such good results. Because you're so confident.
Because I was so confident. But having a little bit of a reality check, I think, helped me later to actually understand the game a bit better.
But I've still taken away that, I think in chess, the optimal state when you're playing a game is somewhere between optimistic and delusionally optimistic. Because if you're realistic, you're just never going to be opportunistic enough to sort of exploit your opponent's mistakes.
I think another factor is the way you analyze things that you were able to say I was a little delusional and even though I'm doing very well I got a trust in this process of growth and development and that it is a very very long process yeah exactly and like very soon after that I started working with with Gary Kasparov as well and that made me realize that I know even less and what can a guy like Garry Kasparov tell you that makes you know that you know even less back then it was really like my style has become a bit more dynamic over time. But back then, I really, really lacked understanding

of more dynamic positions in chess.

You can have more static or more dynamic pawn structures.

If there are a lot of possible pawn breaks for both sides

and both kings are under attack, then it's sort of more dynamic and tactical. Or it could be more about gaining some minutes positional advantages.
And that's sort of what I was excelling at, the latter. And working with him, it just improved sort of the more dynamic part of my game a lot and that helped me very much short term and also it's helped me later because it improved my understanding of the game my strength, main strength is still more in the more static structures, but that work made me so much more versatile and I still definitely profit from that.
What is a coach for you today? What benefit is a coach today? A couple of things. The main benefits that I have for my chess coach is opening work.
That's like the low-hanging fruit. That's really what you can get the most out of from game to game.
A couple of of other things like my my coach is is also um an old friend of mine um he's danish so we can communicate in the same language uh and he's also just as obsessed with golf as i am so that every every time like we have like a chess training camp there's always also a lot of golf being played. So yeah, those are a few things.
But chess-wise, it's mainly about the opening work. And so it's essentially, he's obviously very good at chess as well, but it's essentially bouncing things off of each other and going over positions.
Yeah, and then he is very good at using chess engines to get slightly different results than maybe others do. Do you occasionally, or do you at all, analyze other people's games and break them down together? Not really.
When it comes to analyzing other games, it's more useful for me to look at what the engine is saying. Because the engines are just smarter than people.
Yeah, they are. And I'm good enough that I can interpret what the engine is saying to understand why a certain thing happens.
So it's still interesting to analyze together as humans, but we always want to double-check what we're saying with the engines. Isn't it fascinating that that's a gigantic factor now ever since Deep Blue, right? Yeah thing about i i know like i don't know if you if you talk to gary but he has this whole thing with um with deep blue i i'm not sure if deep blue was actually uh better than than gary but um it yeah it started it started the the downfall of us of us humans when it when it comes to.
And it's now been a long time where we've just accepted that our computer overlords are just a lot better. And there are serious benefits for improving players for kids.
The engines help people improve a lot so that's that's a great thing uh additionally people watching chess games like one problem is that you cannot easily tell like it's not like one guy is being punched and the other guy is um is punching like it takes some skill to uh to see what's going on with the help of the engines, like you could actually have a real-time score all the time because it tells you who is winning and who is not. So it becomes a lot easier to follow as well.
Because honestly, like most people, when they consume sports, they're mostly interested about who is going to win and who is going to lose.

So now at least you can have that factor in chess that you can see that.

and it's very interesting for me

to read what people were writing about

computer chess

30, not 30 but like

50, 60 years ago and so on

when there was an actual discussion whether

computers could ever

beat a grandmaster at chess 30, not 30, but like 50, 60 years ago and so on,

when there was an actual discussion whether computers could ever beat a grandmaster at chess.

And now it's very much settled, of course.

Well, they have that same discussion about Go, right?

Well, Go is much more complicated than chess.

So, but I don't know what has happened since AlphaGo. If the best masters are still a little bit better or where the state is at.
I think Go is better than everybody, the computer is. But I think a new factor is that the computer has devised creative moves that were never used before that have now been implemented they're part of like general strategy which I think they thought was very shocking so if you can find any kind of bluffing moves or I do not know because I don't understand go I was just reading an article about the extraordinary leaps that AI has taken and that one of the more shocking things was was that it was able to beat the best players at go which they didn't they thought it was like a long time coming yeah i mean i i did watch i watched the movie alpha go and i mean how long ago was that that's like five no maybe like six seven years ago in ai time that's like stone ages which is so crazy and i think like a year or two later there was alpha zero in chess um so chess engines they were always like kind of built by humans and instructed by humans and then alpha zero came along and uh which is a neural network that just you know learned chess on its own and it became more or less as good or maybe slightly slightly worse than the best traditional chess engines what's interesting is that the neural networks played chess a lot more like humans.
They were much less concerned about material factors. They were more about positional play and long-term thinking and so on because it was not based on brute force in the way that traditional engines would.
And you would see funny, like they have computer tournaments as well with the best engine in the world. And you will still see like Leela Zero, that's sort of the clone of Alpha Zero because they discontinued the Alpha Zero project after a while.
It will make like elementary tactical blunders almost. That's crazy.
Because it, I don't know, it doesn't have, it just thinks about chess differently than traditional engines, but it will also like do things that just confounds the very very best chess engines in the world still so um that that's very interesting to to see and like all the best coaches and and players now now when when you work with chess computers like you always have both like a neural net and a traditional chess engine running as well as some others who who are now like hybrid, who have a little bit of both. It's just fascinating that it would make blunders.
Yeah, well, I don't know if it's something about its search. I really don't know.
But it would also make some fascinating decisions like when you promote a pawn like you usually promote to a queen because that's almost always the best unless you sometimes want to promote a knight specifically to give a check or sometimes to avoid stalemate but stalemate, but that's less frequent. But then what Lila and AlphaZero would sometimes do is that they would promote to a different piece because if it's a piece that's anyway going to be captured, just to give your opponent, like, a slight chance of making a mistake by making another move, which is something a human would never, ever do.
But it's really funny. A little bit of a parallel to what's going on in Go, I think, with this gamesmanship that is going on with the new neural nets.
That's crazy that it would just trick you. Yeah, it would try and trick it.
It probably wouldn't trick a human because a human would be like, that's weird. Okay, I'll just take it.
Whatever. But another engine would be like, oh, okay.
Well, I have another alternative that seems equivalent more or less. Maybe I'll go for that.
Wow. It's very strange.
So what are the best programs that people play on? There are a few. There's one that was originally developed by Norwegian called Stockfish that's still considered the best.
So I think the best now is Stockfish, like Stockfish hybrid. That's part neural and part traditional engine.
And then I think- So do you have to be connected online to use that? Yeah, I mean, most people use either, most people use remote engines, like some kind of cloud service, to have as much computing power as possible.

So the kind of computing power that's on your phone,

like can you beat your phone at the highest level?

No.

No chance.

Isn't that crazy?

No chance.

That's so crazy because Deep Blue, wasn't it like as big as a room?

Yeah.

Deep Blue wasn't like a stack of computers, right?

But I'm sure it's still less powerful than the computer on your phone is today. Yeah, I know.
It's just shocking. No, no.
I have no chance against my phone. That's so crazy.
There was actually one time where I played corporate simul, and there was this guy who said, i built a chess program in in my university class can i let that play against you again instead of myself and i was like yeah sure why not and i actually like beat it fairly handily uh because i played some kind of like anti-computer chess where i just close up the position as much as possible and just let it have as few possibilities as possible to outcalculate me so that it's a purely strategical game. That doesn't work against very good engines, but it can work against weaker ones.
But no, humans, we don't have any... There was a Grandmaster who played a match recently against Lila, which is the best neural network engine now.
They were playing classical chess, and he started with a night more. And they played a 10-game match, and he won 5.5 to 4.5 a half wow which is crazy like it's a nightmare like

that's it should not be possible for any like if god was playing chess that shouldn't be you shouldn't be able to beat a grandmaster in any game like that so the grandmaster was still able to win.

But, yeah, for me,

I rarely play against

engines at all because they just make me feel so stupid and useless. I think about it more as a tool more than anything else and often when you play against them, the moves that they make, they are not necessarily relevant as to what a human would do in that situation.
Because we just think differently. Do you ever try to think like the computer? Yeah, well, specifically the neural nets have improved our understanding of the game immensely.
And the AVOZERO paper came out very late 2018. And actually, I played a world championship match late 2018 as well against an American Fabiano Caruana.
That was the best match I think that I've ever played. We played 12 draws, actually, and then I won in a tiebreak.
But like the games were super high quality and he was very evenly matched. And then he was actually using Lila, the AlphaZero clone, which we didn't have access to.
Like we didn't even know that was the thing. But the thing is like after AlphaZero came out in late 2018, there was a period, half a year maybe, early 2019, where you could very clearly see which players have been using these neural networks or knew how to use them and which players didn't.
And my coach, he got into it very quickly and we got an advantage of basically everybody but that guy who had been using it during the match. And it just made us understand the game a lot better.
There were, as I said, a couple of things about long-term king safety. pushing pawns on the side of the board was maybe the biggest takeaway that often you would push pawns and not as an attacking tool, which used to be the way that you would push a pawn like trying to break open your king.
What you would do is that you would have a little hook on the side of the board that you could use 20 or 30 moves later to make the opponent's king less safe then. And this is something that humans didn't really do.
And I still see some people allowing these pawn advances advances and and i don't like i wonder if they didn't didn't learn their lesson from from 2019 uh but it was very clear to see um at a certain time before everybody sort of caught up with the new information and that's also when i had maybe my best stretch of chess ever because I just understood these new things better better than others it's almost counterintuitive that you wouldn't want to play the computer because the computer makes you look stupid because the idea in my mind would be like well you should play the best thing that you could possibly play and And if that's a computer, great. If that's another human being, then play the human being.
But I would imagine that playing something that makes you feel stupid would at the very least teach you something about the game. Yeah, it does.
But at the same time, like, you know that these are usually things that humans cannot replicate. And to be fair, the kids these days, a lot of them play a more concrete brand of chess that is more similar to engines than we have seen in the past.
Because they've had so much exposure to it. Yeah.
Like they're less dogmatic, more concrete in their thinking. But then I know that there are usually other things that are lacking.
So I could sort of steer the game there as well. So I don't know.
I haven't found it particularly useful, but maybe I'm just, yeah, I don't want to. Is it partly because you just don't want to lose? Yeah, of course.
And it's also because, as you said, chess is a very lonely game. When you lose, it's because you're worse than your opponent.
And imagine losing to somebody who you know is like completely stupid, which like traditional chess computers aren't. They're stupid, they just have much more computing power than you do.
So losing over and over again to something that's so stupid, like that's not a good feeling. Could you help explain to me what are the factors? Like how can, what is it doing that you can't do in terms of calculating positions and moves and strategies? Well, first of all, it's infinitely faster.
So there will be certain possibilities that I will rule out because of my intuition, but it is able to calculate in a very short time that it's possible. It will never make blunders, like simple tactical mistakes.
The neural networks sometimes do, but traditional engines don't. and like I can

I do but traditional engines don't and like I can I can keep like most of the moves that I make will be the same as they do but they just like they don't make any real blunders at all like they may make slight position, but honestly, most of the time that I think an engine makes a positional mistake is because I don't understand it well enough. This episode is brought to you by Fast Growing Trees.
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businesses thrive communities do too small businesses thrive on tiktok learn more at tiktok economic impact.com so it's not really a mistake and it might look like one but it's long term uh yeah it's just that my understanding is it's not good enough and that that is useful then that does help me learn um what are the fact like what is the difference between the approach that the neural network takes versus a traditional engine like why is one of them approaching the game differently because one of them is constantly calculating um based on sort of what what humans have taught them is like the value of like the value, what is the value of a pawn what's the value of a knight and what is the value of you know a far advanced pawn and all of this, like it calculates based on that a neural network just, you teach, you just just show the rules of chess

and play against yourself a lot of times and get better.

And it just has a different approach.

What it does is just based on the games that it's played against itself.

So it will have completely different ideas at times. Like, imagine like in 2019, because of these neural networks, like every opening that had been played for hundreds of years had to be rechecked by coaches because there could be a difference in evaluation because there is this new neural network that just things in a completely different way wow so these neural networks could go back and look at you know a classic game from like 1963 and say well you know what I would have fucked that dude up because I would have done this, that, and the other thing.
Yeah, exactly. I think a lot of it was based on it just emphasizes different factors than traditional engines do.
And that ultimately just leads to different results, really. But it's, yeah, it was extremely fascinating for a while, but now it's just led to really more parity in the world of chess because everybody just has access to that information information it used to be a thing back in the time that some people would really be ahead of others not only in 2019 but also other times like they had um more computing power better better cloud engines like they had started to use different engines and so on but now now you could prepare for world championship honestly and in two weeks and you'd be completely with like just a regular um regular like laptop that's connected to cloud.
It's very different

and so much easier today.

That is so fascinating that it's changed the game so much.

Could you get a computer, whether it is a traditional engine

or whether it's a neural network, could you get one to imitate

a specific style? Could you get one to say,

I want you to play Garry Kasparov when he was younger? So we actually did this back in the day. We actually started an app called Play Magnus where you could play against myself at different ages.
And the style, it was based on the guy who built Stockfish built this engine as well, so it was based on an old version of that, but it would have my openings and try to emulate my style at certain ages. Obviously, it wasn't perfect, but it was a start start I think it's still difficult to build like a very good clone because essentially at least with traditional engines it's not possible maybe with AI you can get there but I still think we fundamentally think differently about chess but yeah yeah, maybe.
Well, the interesting thing would be to take you, because there's so many games that can be observed and put into the calculations. And then I would really be fascinated to watch you play you.
You know? I mean, like, what would that be like? Like, you play you when you were 20. No, so the thing about it is that what you would have to calibrate is that it would make occasional tactical blunders, right? Right.
How did you track those in? Yeah. They wouldn't want to.
And so what would happen in the Play Minus app is that it would make occasional blunders, but those would be like a little bit too outrageous because it's like really hard to emulate the kinds of mistakes a human would make by the engines. So I think that would probably still be like the most difficult part, like the main issue in order to make such a thing.
If the Play Magnus thing was dialed in like 100%, what would be, do you think now would be the scariest age to play you? Does that question make sense? Yeah, are you better now than ever before? No, I think my peak level is close to the best because chess level or proficiency at anything, it's about making use of the knowledge and making it into skill, right? And I definitely have more knowledge now than I've ever had. But I think probably the best combination I had of knowledge and energy that translated the best into skill was probably in 2019, like first half of the year when I was 28.
and when I was more like a young Kasparov than I'd ever been before. Very dynamic.
Well, what is the difference between you in 2019 and you today? A few things. First, I couldn't play the same openings as I played then because they have been worked out to a point where they're basically just too analyzed and unplayable.
So that's one thing. Apart from that, I think I could do, like, my average level

would probably be a little bit lower

because I'm a little bit,

I'm a little bit older

and my brain is not quite as fast.

But I could do, I think, most of those things.

What I don't think I could do

is like the other sort of best version of me,

which was 2013, 2014,

when I was in the best shape of my life and I was just a relentless beast at the board grinding down my opponents in very long endgames never giving them any respite whatsoever. Like purely skill-wise, that was far from the best version.
Sorry, knowledge-wise, that was far from the best version of me. But I was just, yeah, it was just like the average level of my game definitely was higher than because I barely played really bad games at all because I was always sort of on.
I had so much willpower and energy. Well, you're saying you were in the best shape of your life.
Do you mean physically or do you mean physically? Physically, yeah physically yeah well there's two factors you're talking about like physical like fitness and nutrition and exercise like that that these things you don't really take too much into consideration but they obviously played a huge factor in the most successful period of your life uh yeah um it did but then because you're only're only 34. It's not like you're an old man.
No, no, no. That's true, but I just feel it with these kids.
Their brains are just so much faster than mine. I mean, I've felt it for years as well that, no, I'm not old, but I can never be at that level of pure computing power.
Is that generally accepted with chess, that there's a certain age where it just drops off? Who has won the world championships at the oldest age? No, well, back in the days when you couldn't get information that quickly, it took people a lot longer to develop. And then it was considered that the best age was like late 30s, early 40s.
Obviously, the drop-off is not nearly as steep as it would be in physical sports. That goes without saying.
but I think the peak years are pretty much the same for most people, like mid-20s to early 30s. I think I could still be very, very close to my peak if I focused fully on all the things that I can control.
Physical fitness, nutrition, vitamins. Yeah, all of those things.
And yet you don't do that? I don't understand. If you're so obsessed with chest, that seems to have a primary factor.
Yeah, it's a good thing. I feel like I generally do the right things when I'm at tournaments.
But then in between, I don't know, I want to enjoy life as well. I'm generally obsessed with chess, with chess chess but I'm not always obsessed with competing like certain times there will be certain days certain tournaments where I I know that I'm not going to be at my best and I can sort of I can feel it and then I'm not able to take it as seriously.

I feel like I'm not a Michael Jordan type who has to go all out in every game.

I used to, but now I don't think I have that in me. Because my main motivation for playing chess is that I love to play.
I don't have concrete goals of what I want to do, things I want to achieve. Does that sort of relax attitude that you have? Does that drive other people crazy that you're still able to beat them that would drive me fucking nuts if i was

just fully obsessed and studying moves all day and just taking my vitamins and drinking only purified water and it's kind of a thing that you're known for right like a lot of other people are known to work all the time and you've kind of always at least a reputation played the player right isn't that what you're... Yeah, and also the thing is, like, I was known for, like, being fit and all of these things, but now I think there are a lot of other players who take these things a lot more seriously than I do.
I think the reason why I got that reputation is that I really like doing a lot of, a lot of, like I did a lot of sports when I was little and I've always like kind of done them for fun. So I think that was why, like you don't see a lot of chess players playing soccer or tennis or whatever.
Not that I'm great at any of those things, but I was usually better than a lot of other chess players. Yeah, I guess I do have...
I don't know. I don't know what a reputation I have for the others.
I don't really care. Yeah, there's not much you can do about your reputation.
I'm just saying, in a game or a sport where it's so computer-involved and analyzed and there's geniuses wearing suits and glasses and things, you're kind of known as a laid-back, intimidating force with a legacy. Are there special things you do, kind of more like a poker player or anything anything to intimidate your opponents ever? Like I've seen you like show up late to big tournaments where they're like waiting for you and stuff.
That's really cool. That's a Miyamoto Musashi move.
Samurai? Yeah. Honestly, like that's me being late is down to a couple of things.
First, I hate waiting. But also, I'm terrible at planning.
So that's why I keep showing up late. You are terrible at planning.
You know how funny that is? It's literally what you do better than anybody. My planning is always based on everything going perfectly and like making a time plan based on that and if something goes a little bit wrong then i'm going to be late and like something usually goes goes wrong or often enough that it becomes becomes a thing um like um like as you talked about in in chess like there's this video that a lot of people have talked about

where I come, there's a Blitz game, right?

And that's three minutes,

and I come like two and a half minutes late

because I've been skiing in the mountains,

and there was an accident on the road

that delayed me like half an hour.

Like, most people would have planned for that, had a little bit of buffer bit of buffer but i was like yeah that was probably going to be fine certainly suddenly there's an accident and i'm going to be late and i'm just running into the playing hall in my in my sweatpants and not really even realizing that the game has started i just thought i was so late that I should be. And I thought everybody was there.
And then randomly it turned out that I had half a minute left when I got to the board. So that's kind of more...
How did you play the game? Did you have a different approach because you knew you only had 30 seconds? No, the thing is there you have a two second increment per move. So I'm not going to lose on time automatically i just had to play a little bit faster but it was it was okay but as i said like i don't do those things to intimidate my opponents i'm just that would be such a mind fuck guy shows up two and a half minutes late and still stomps you yeah i don't think many people know about the the the skiing delay or anything i think it was thought of as like a I'm a badass, I'm coming in late.
No, honestly that was like the world championships in chess, like they were being held in the weirdest places. So this was in Almaty, Kazakhstan which is this like really during winter at least pretty polluted, not very nice city and then just half an hour out of the city you have basically the ops you have beautiful mountains that goes up to um to three and a half thousand meters where it's just fantastic and you can you can like get um yeah from from the city it's like an hour and you're at the top of the mountain and having a beautiful ski vacation uh and i just like was so miserable being down in the city that i thought for this day like if i'm going to perform at all today like i need some fresh air i like i need to get out of here and so that's why i took the risk and it was yeah definitely not um not to um to play to play mind games because i i bobby fisher said about chess that i don't believe in psychology i believe in good moves like i believe in like a little bit of both but i'm more in his school that i just um i think i'm going to make better moves and i don't need um that all those other things did you ever have an opponent that was doing something psychological that kind of messed you up or threw you off like back when i was a wrestler in high school some guys wouldn't shower and it would be disgusting right was there anything like that in chess yeah that, that specific thing has happened for sure.
I'm not sure if it's been a conscious choice by my opponents. I'm sure I've been guilty of it as well.
That's true. I don't know really.
I think the only thing is not to bring that up again, but I think when I think that my opponent might be cheating, that's the only time that I'm really off. It's just weird that you can cheat and do it for so long and yet still play in the best tournaments.
You would think that like in the UFC, like say if you get caught with steroids, you get a long ban. And if you get caught again, you get an even longer ban.
And I think it's like a three-strike thing. If you get caught a third time, you're out of the sport forever.
No, it's... The thing is that...
But you think harsher penalties would discourage people? Oh, yeah, for sure. Especially for online because there's been this thinking that cheating over the board and over online is very different.
But the thing is, once people are cheating online and then having these meteoric rises over the board as well, it makes you think, hmm, that's a bit strange. So yeah, there definitely needs to be um to be harsher penalties one thing that chess.com used to do is that they they would let people sort of confess privately and then get their account back but now they're moving to more naming and shaming sort of sort of thing with um um and, which I think is, yeah, it's a lot better.
But a lot of it is about incentives as well, right? Like if you think that you can get away with cheating and there are monetary incentives to cheat. People are going to cheat.
It's as simple as that. Yeah.
Well, I guess that's just with every pursuit. There's always going to be people that look for shortcuts.
There's always going to be someone who looks to skirt around the difficult path. No, that's true.
But the thing is, there's so little you need in chess and the engines are so powerful um like if i started cheating you would never know the thing is like i would i would get like a move here and there that's all i need or maybe imagine i'm playing a tournament i just find a system where i get somebody to signal me when there's a critical moment like if a certain move if there's a moment where a certain move is much better than the others that's really all i would need to to go from being the best to being like practically unbeatable right so it it really is a scary situations and situation there have been these cases of so many cases of people who are acting suspiciously and who are making suspicious um having suspicious results based on the data but they're very like if you're not cheating in a dumb way there rarely is going to be a smoking gun and without that smoking gun it's really hard to catch people How would you eliminate that other than security? Would you have it so there's no audience members at all and have them only in a room together? So that has been that has been done in world championships for instance like we're basically play we're basically been playing like in a glass box that where you can see um where you can see um where you like you cannot see the audience and you cannot hear anything so it's a glass proof glass box. I kind of, that's like, you kind of don't want that.
You want there to be, like, I really like having just more like an eSports setting where people can be as loud as they want. It's just you have players sit down like boxers with headsets.
But don't headsets open up the possibility of cheating? But then the headsets would be all provided by the organizers. Right, so some sort of sound.
And you'd have to have both. We have had that in tournaments that you have to have white noise and some kind of sound from Spotify or if you want to listen to classical music or whatever.

You can do that? Yeah, yeah. So you can listen to Wu-Tang Clan while you play chess? Yeah, I mean, honestly, playing Blitzchess, listening to music usually helps me because like doing tasks that are more intuition based, then that helps with the flow.
with longer games

you probably

don't want that disturbance but i've definitely played some of my best blitz chess just um yeah listening listening to music what do you listen there bopping um yeah i think some wild norwegian music like rammstein or something that's actually german but they have some good stuff they have some good songs no i think my best my just my best chess has probably been uh norwegian rap norwegian rap really what's a good norwegian rap band that you could a rap group that you you could recommend there's a guy called Mr. Pimp Lotion and Oral B Mr.
Pimp Lotion and Oral B they're kind of it's like a little bit ironic but they're like doing like American like West Coast rap in Norwegian oh that sounds badass this is a bit of a different but I actually I actually did a song with them. Mr.
Pimp Lotion. I actually did a song with those guys.
What a great name, Mr. Pimp Lotion.
That's incredible. Yeah, my verse is right at the end.
I like it too because I don't have any idea what the words are saying. Yours is at the end? No, basically there's...
Yeah, the thing about... What happened was that they did a show and they have this thing called Spenur, which is like a moisturizer mostly used for animals.
But like this Mississippi Emplosion, like he's obsessed with that one. And somebody apparently stole that from backstage at their concert.
And so they didn't know who it was, but they eventually found out and they made a song about it. And so they had a bunch of people like send in their verses.

Incredible the difference between America and Norway, what the rappers are rapping about. There's gang wars and shootings.
And in Norway, somebody's like, who stole my lotion? Yeah. there actually was a there actually was a

popular yeah there actually was a there actually was a popular song like about 20 years ago that referenced specifically that in Norwegian that there was nothing to rap about because nothing bad ever happens that's what he's saying in English don't make people out the gun it's best that someone speak out who stole this bean off who stole my lotion yeah basically there's a bunch of verses like people accusing each other and then I randomly come in at the very end and solve the mystery. Was it you?

No, it wasn't me.

I was not at that

particular show, but

yeah, I think

the best online chess that I've

ever played was probably listening

to their music.

Wow. Do you mix it up?

Do you ever listen to Led Zeppelin?

No, I listen to a lot of older stuff as well. So, yeah.
I'm, like, I have no idea what's on the chart these days in general. I find out through Tony.
I find out through the young guys at the club. I'm like, what are you listening to? What is this? Yeah.
And I'll, you know, do Shazam on it and put it on my spot. No, like that's sometimes happens to me as well.
Maybe like once a year or something. Yeah.
Otherwise it's, um, I remember like I asked my sister, uh, probably like 10 years ago, like I saw a playlist and I was like, do you have anything from before 2000?

And so I was like, yeah, of course.

Britney Spears, baby one more time, 1999.

So I'm kind of the opposite of that.

Well, that's awesome.

Well, listen, man, it's been awesome having you in here.

I really appreciate you doing this.

And tell everybody when the Netflix show is out.

I don't know, but it's

within a few months for sure.

Jamie, do you know?

I didn't say. Didn't say when it's coming

out. Well, we will put it up on the Instagram

when it's out.

It's been awesome talking to you, Matt. I really appreciate it.

Thank you. Thanks for coming in.

Alright, Tony.

Fun times.

Goodbye, everybody.